"Nearly 100"; the use of statistics in the article is jarring. Also, the explanation of the Israeli's methodology is lacking; the cropped screenshots are not very helpful in determining what the software can do. How does it map the "voids" to the previous structure? The map creation is certainly a probabilistic process. So, what expectation thresholds are being used? No names for the "2-D and 3-D" software. What is sorely missing is any references. Only can assume the software is all in house to the IDF.
1) Despite the chaos, the debris of a collapsed building can be mapped to the structure as it was when standing.
2) All sorts of information can be used in figuring out where you are - the breed of a dog corpse, a scrap of paper with the name of a victim's rabbi...
3) Be skeptical of secondary sources (estimates of the number of victims...)
4) Bureaucrats will be obstructive just by doing their job as if nothing has happened (we can't tell you that...)
One thing that was not mentioned, but which I imagine was part of the calculus, is what people are likely to do at the first sign of trouble (in this case, noise and shaking) - head for the stairs, go to the window, wait for it to stop...
The part about how quickly they figured out the number of missing was actually 97-99, opposed to the "official" number ~150, was really impressive.
Of all the things the article covers, I'm most interested to know more about how they interview friends and family so quickly and efficiently, when things are still so raw and emotional. It does say that half the team is dedicated to that task, at least initially.
The quote is 'In all, the Israeli team found about 84% of the nearly 100 victims.' and the realization that they might mean that they found 84% of the body parts vs 84% of the people.
That would mean they would have to know the exact body mass of the 100 victims prior to their death and weighed each recovered piece of flesh. That's morbid and really just overthinking it.
1. I was just pointing out thats where the OP mind could wander to, especially within the context of the story.
2. The irony is that you are the one overthinking by going as far as to suggest weighing flesh. One can recover a body from the waist up and consider it 50%.
> It clearly worked too. They found 84% of the 100 victims.
finding 100% of the victims should have been possible, but of course countries spend more on killing... I think they are just trying to bring Israel's image up since they are killing so many innocent people in the Gaza Strip... For some reason, Biden loves Israel (is that because of their religion? IE: they believe the same lies that he does)
Which is correlated by Arabs loosing wars they started against the state of Israel. Heck many of those “settlements” are people returning to their ancestral lands of judea and sumeria. Which was taken by the romans and named Palestina.
This is a myth.
Many so-called Israelis come from Africa and elsewhere, while the others' claim about their fathers being there 4000 years before, is also invalid and irrelevant to claim over a territory today.
Anyway, none of their claims legitimize Israelis actions in killing and terrorizing Palestinians, including women and children:
Yeah, according to the people that launch the bombs. Yet, according to the pictures, the people that take the pictures, the people that are humanitarians, and pretty much the world consensus — the only correlation is that the victims being bombed are almost always Arab Palestinians who won’t surrender their rights to Israel. But who is surprised that a colonial power oppresses the indigenous population?
They could help very easily but not lobbing missiles purposefully targeted at civilians in an open air prison.
But, but, "self defense". They don't need to defend themselves if they don't first commit acts of aggression. So they can also stop oppressing the Palestinians and sue for peace. It is entirely in their power to do so. They are the only ones who call the shots.
because they volunteered and the Miami emergency response was willing to accept their help. They were then authorized to participate in the operations. The article lists many other countries this unit has also volunteered to help.
They want to wash the bloods off their hand in the public view. They have killed more than 100k Palestinians since they have occupied their land in 1948. And the fun fact here is that the IDF has roots in the terrorist groups like Haganah, Irgun and Lehi:
Even today, IDF is a terror group and executes terror plots across the world. This is separate from their daily killing and torture of the Palestinians.
Miami has many Israeli expats, this building specifically had many dual Israeli-American citizens and the family and friends of the victims called for the IDF to come help, the governor, and mayor ok-ed it so they came.
Many countries have disaster recovery teams specifically tasked with assisting in international catastrophes, the Israeli one happens to be a division of the IDF, probably for budgetary reasons.
It makes sense why it would be part of the IDF. In Israel, the usual reason you need disaster response is an act of terrorism. Having the disaster recovery and security forces all under a single authority makes coordinating a response much easier.
I think its fairly common to have disaster recovery as part of the military, and to have them help in foreign countries when disaster strikes. E.g. canadian military helped out in usa during hurricane katrina
It sounds like a great real life training opportunity for a rescue unit, it seems like it would be hard to develop fake training exercises to simulate the challenges of a real collapse of a big building.
I think it's standard practice for one's military to help another country for example the Mexican military came to America to help during Hurricane Katrina. The military is prepared for all kinds of situations so they are probably the best government agency to help.
Even at first thought, it makes sense why the IDF would be well equipped for such a mission, given all the turmoil in the Middle East(mentioned in the article), they have much more experience in this situation. I can't imagine all the horror that those volunteers may have seen through their lifetimes, and they find a way to use that experience to help others thousands of miles away.
I can imagine that for a typical volunteer, pulling body parts out of rubble would be a fairly life changing event, and the number of people in the world with the experience and grit to tackle this gracefully can't be a long list.
>Even at first thought, it makes sense why the IDF would be well equipped for such a mission, given all the turmoil in the Middle East(mentioned in the article), they have much more experience in this situation.
Actually they don't really have similar "field experience" from Israel (fortunately). They do have a bunch of training with artificially made piles of rubbles and whenever something happens somewhere in the world (earthquakes, tsunamis, etc) they usually among first to arrive.
Watching and reading about the teams arriving in Christchurch, New Zealand after the earthquake that happened there was really impressive and inspiring.
Countries that seemed far away and uninvolved had teams touching down at staggered intervals and brought resources and skill that really helped.
International search and rescue seems to be a little world of its own that operates away from the noise and bickering of ‘normal’ international relations.
Because everyone benefits. The helpers get first hand experience, the helped get rapid scaleup of capabilities. Nobody’s interested in messing this up as everybody knows they might be next. This is the sort of positive feedback that keeps the world turning.
NZ's SAR teams (primarily urban SAR) have repeatedly deployed overseas to assist after a natural disaster, same with our Police DVI (disaster victim identification) teams - most prominently after the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami.
There's a lot of solidarity between countries on the Ring of Fire when it comes to natural disasters. We even had the Californians turn up alongside the other countries.
Likewise, rural firefighters from NZ, Australia and California routinely travel to each other's countries when backup is needed.
It's the implicit reciprocity, and real life training opportunities that drive it. Otherwise your training is all stimulated, like covering a bunch of mannequins in sheep offal...
It's more than that. Part of it is army training, but a giant part of it is organizations like ZAKA (https://zakaworld.org/) whose mission comes from our core religious beliefs. As Jews, we're ideally buried fully - meaning as many body parts, blood, whatever intact, or at least with the body. In situations where disasters occur, ZAKA helps triage, recover, identify, and even do DNA analysis as needed, to help make this happen. This is in addition to training our security services.
In Israel, regardless of political affiliation, religious beliefs or anything else, they're understood to be the true heroes that they are. No one else exhaustively pursues these events to conclusion. There's a reason that their mantra is חסד של אמת, which is best translated as true lovingkindness. Yes, in Hebrew lovingkindess is a concept that is different than "loving kindness".
With all respect to ZAKA, and I have a lot, they don't really have much to do with this unit. This unit is search and rescue (if possible). Zaka is "body (parts) collection"
Since when has ZAKA not trained with, and trained search and rescue? After basic, and initials there's are courses with ZAKA. ZAKA wasn't the provider of service, just of training.
Maybe they occasionally do operation training together in order to know how to work together at crisis, but it's first time that I hear that zaka trains IDF search&rescue. I googled for it, and the only thing that I found is that IDF trained zaka people.
> There's a reason that their mantra is חסד של אמת
It's simpler than you're making it out to be - "ḥesed shel emet" (true kindness) is based on the Talmudic idea that the truest kindness is that done for the dead, since they can't ever pay you back.
Also ZAKA is not related to the IDF or this mission.
Yes, this is easily splitting Talmudic hairs. In English lovingkindness is really loving-kindness, a form of kindness that is done from the place of love. But lovingkindness is the notion that love and kindness have equal weight.
This was partially a PR move. Surfside is over 1/3 Jewish and a large number of Israelis lived in the building.
Not saying it's "bad" at all for Israel to send in experts. But it's important to realize that governments selectively help people in other countries for political reasons sometimes.
Would they have sent in their experts if the building was full of Palestinians?
Absolutely incredible. At first, I was skeptical and even wondering why an IDF group was there, but now I'm in absolute awe of the abilities of disciplined, well trained groups.
> This is it. There will be no more than 98 or 99. Not a single one more.
Precision of a surgeon or sniper with first principles first. Initially, it would seem like a waste to do this work, but it clearly helped.
>Israeli team has fewer members so they learn to be 'small and swift'
It is amazing to see how they work to save those people, at the same time terrifying to think how they got those experience with all those never ending wars throughout their lifetime.
Salut to the team for helping those in grief.
Also from wikipedia:
>Distinct from possible construction defects, an analysis of European Remote-Sensing Satellite data by Florida International University indicates that the building had been sinking during the 1990s at a significant rate of about two millimeters (0.079 in) per year. While 97 percent of Miami Beach had been stable, 1,555 of 18,949 points in Miami Beach had been sinking, at a rate of less than one millimeter (0.039 in) per year.
So about 2 inches. Is that enough to cause a collapse? I don't know enough to answer this question, but I would hope that buildings are engineered to handle at least a couple inches of sinking. My house in the hills has 2-3 inch variations after 70 years of existence, but admittedly it's not a high rise building.
It may have contributed to it but in this case the bigger problem was an error in the construction of the building:
> In 2018, an inspection performed by the engineering firm Morabito Consultants showed a "major error" in the construction of the pool deck, whereby the waterproofing layer was not sloped. Water that collected on the waterproofing remained until it could evaporate. Over the years, the concrete slabs below the pool deck had been severely damaged by this water. The report noted the waterproofing below the pool deck was beyond its useful life and needed to be completely removed and replaced.
> On June 30, WLS-TV in Chicago publicized a bystander's video of water pouring into the parking garage from above near its entrance, and apparent concrete rubble lying on the floor, apparently taken at 1:18 a.m., seven minutes before the north-central portion of the building collapsed.
This is suprisingly interesting. They use a 3D model to geographically identify each sub-unit of the original building in the rubbles. Then they gather intelligence on clues in each unit to confirm their data and adjust their model accordingly. Doing this they are able to improve precision and identify smaller units in the rubbles (ex. identify each room within a house).
It's really an intelligence unit with the added capacity of excavating and moving rubble. I can see the usefulness of this for an army. Buildings, especially buildings targeted during conflicts, contain precious and strategical objects and information. Being able to recover them is crucial.
They are part of the army, but it's part that is called Homefront Command that is tasked with civil defense: preparing the population for a conflict or disaster, assisting the population during the crisis, and contributing to post-crisis reconstruction. It mostly focuses on civilians and infrastructure.
Bless this team. In my life, I've realised (via harsh experience) how necessary a body is for healthy human grieving.
I'm not entirely sure why, my gut feeling is that it's something primitive in the human animal, but I've witnessed it enough to respect the effort SAR teams put into body recovery.
Don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians? My guess is that they do more to protect the average palestinian than meets the eye....definitely more than Hamas or Fatah
I don't know as much about them, sorry.
Quick Google search showed that there has been some claims of selection bias and "not telling the full story". My take is that they're doing a disservice to both sides.
The Wikipedia is a case of whataboutism. And a complaint of how difficult it is to influence HRW by government, leaders and special interest groups.
The fact that you linked to a jpost article and shined light on the little israel does to “save” lives after literally bombarding them tells me where you stand in relation to the conflict.
Just look up Robert L. Bernstein.
HRW founder, left and was critical of the organization's take on Israel until his last days.
regarding my stance in relation to the conflict:
- I think (and know) that Israel does more to save palestinian lives than the palestinian government. The evidence is endless. I can link to other new sources if Jpost is unnaceptable.
- I saw a lot of people completely demonizing one side of the conflict. Hell, I'd like to see everyone holding Hamas to the same standards.
- I've seen very strong words (apartheid, colonial, genocidal...) with... no evidence to support it.
By "don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians" do you mean the warning phone calls? They don't make such calls when their aim is to assassinate someone - for obvious reasons.. The IDF also has good information on who lives where - that's how they know where to bomb - so they know that many children will be killed/murdered - as they often are.. The aim is killing some terrorist leader - which is arguably rather dubious given that they'll soon be replaced and the additional hatred will help greatly with terroist recruitment..
Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes.
Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes.
Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering.
Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach.
The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2]. They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3].
> Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes.
> Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes.
This is another important discussion. However the recent east Jerusalem case has been about Jewish homes that was given to Arab families during the short Jordanian rule of the area, wasn't it?
> Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering.
I cannot support everything Israelis do. If this is correct and the kids where unarmed etc this is a war crime and should be punished as such.
> Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach.
Extremely sad case. Also possible reason for war crimes investigation, but:
It would be extremely ironic if that case gets prosecuted while the even worse guys who start a war from this area doesn't get prosecuted.
Israelis are to blame here for not being careful enough, "Palestinian leaders" for starting this.
> The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1].
No, they are quite clear that it is civilian buildings - only with significant presence of legitimate targets.
> They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2].
Link does not support your claim?
> They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3].
Again, link does not support your claim.
[...]
> I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians?
I do not dehumanize them.
I feel terribly sorry for them.
They are suffering more than the Israelis now.
But the solution isn't to continue to ostracize the least unreasonable part of the conflict and turn a blind eye to the ones who keeps starting this "war" again and again.
You act like East Jerusalem is the only place where Israelis are colonizing Palestinian lands. It is common for the Israeli army to show up to some nice land, declare the land a military zone, proceed to kill and evict Palestinians, and then begin construction of a new settlement for new settlers.
But why are we surprised by this? This has been going on since before Israel when terrorist groups like the Haganah and the Levi would terrorize Palestinians to force them to flee. Of course this policy continues because the leaders of these groups later became prime ministers, presidents, and generals.
Israel is a presently criminal state (settler colonialism is a crime) with a criminal and bloody history. We aren’t ostracizing it — we are pointing out the facts and demanding justice.
> This has been going on since before Israel when terrorist groups like the Haganah and the Levi would terrorize Palestinians to force them to flee.
One of the differences between me and you is that I admit Israelis have faults.
What you say is of course to some degree right.
But presenting it this way without mentioning all the Arab terrorist groups, how the Arabs sided with the nazis etc makes it a huge lie anyway because it makes people think it is one sided.
Like I said, it’s really quite a stretch to conclude that “Arabs sided with the Nazis” because of the arguably inconsequential positions of one individual — from the small Palestinian subset of the middle-eastern Arab population. Mind you these meetings occurred at the tail end of the war to discuss the forced migration of European Jews to Palestine.
Anyhow, what makes this feel like such a low misrepresentation are the historical facts that Arabs were taking in the Jewish victims and refugees that the Nazis were forcing out of Germany while the Europeans and Americans were refusing them.
> Arabs were taking in the Jewish victims and refugees that the Nazis were forcing out of Germany while the Europeans and Americans were refusing them.
Good point. In all fairness you do have some good points and if you stick to them I say you have a better story.
See the other answer here, then stop to reconsider on how many other accounts you are simultaneously mistaken && accusing others at the same time.
Then we can soon start discussing the real problems.
But I am fully aware that Israel has some serious problems so this always starts with me and others shattering the illusion that media and others have created over the last 40 years that this is one sided and that a simple good solution exists.
I wish Arabs living in Palestine and everywhere else all well and I can even kind of understand them.
My biggest problem is well meaning but uninformed journalists and forum participants who keep fueling this from the sidelines - and I wish you well as well.
I am sorry but you are really quite off. Answer me this, how you would feel if you were an Arab living in Palestine? How would you feel if you had to live in an apartheid system where another person can kill your family or steal your property with more-or-less impunity just because you are an Arab? Now tell me how would you react when you read that Israel precision-bombed an entire family [1] in response to “Hamas rockets from nearby”. Stop dancing around the real problems. Widespread racism. Apartheid policies. Settler colonialism. Systemic injustice. Disproportionate responses. Tell me your solutions to these problems.
I think you assume a lot when you say that people post “from the sidelines”. I would say that given the huge number of Palestinian victims some the people who post on the forums have probably suffered a loss of family/property/livelihood because of the Israelis.
> how you would feel if you were an Arab living in Palestine?
Terrible. Either I'd feel terrible because I was oppressed by the Israelis or less likely I guess because I realized I was oppressed by Hamas and Iran.
Again: I see both sides. If everyone here where overwhelmingly denying Israel ever did anything wrong I could play another role.
That never happens though so I am relegated to always inform people about basic pro Israel facts.
I’m not sure I understand your “less likely” remark. Are you conceding that Israel is doing most of the oppressing of Palestinians? Or do you mean that you wouldn’t feel terrible about Israeli land-theft/killing/jailing/apartheid because of Iran and Hamas?
While we are on this topic: how is this a “both sides” issue? Let’s keep it simple and not try to compare Israel oppression of gazans to the Hamas/Iran oppression. Please explain to us how does Hamas and Iran oppress West Bank Palestinians?
> I’m not sure I understand your “less likely” remark. Are you conceding that Israel is doing most of the oppressing of Palestinians?
I mean Hamas has a pretty strong grip over what gets said and written in Gaza.
> Please explain to us how does Hamas and Iran oppress West Bank Palestinians?
Torture, disappearances, embezzlement of aid, using civilians as shields. Iran comes in as supporters.
Yes, in some way this is not a both sides issue. One side is almost a normal democracy, the other is run by a cleptocratic regime that refuses to hold elections.
The answer is war. Like it or not, Israel and Palestinian leadership have been and for now will continue to be in a state of war over the backs of their own constituents.
If you think you’ll find any war zone with pretty pictures and pink unicorns you’re dead wrong.
Look at Afghanistan. Look at Iraq. Look at Iran. Even Myanmar.
What you’re doing with your videos is biased emotional guilt. It’s disingenuous.
Mind you most of the countries I mentioned are fighting among one another. The Palestinians fight, threaten and kill one another as well as keep a perpetual state of moving the goal posts when it comes to any notion of an agreement. So yes, you see people who are sympathetic to the Israeli cause dehumanize them. Is it right? No. But opresee’s hands are exactly clean either. Not even when it comes to their own people.
Most palestinians suffer from this situation, but it's important to remind everyone that palestinians torture each other because there are 2 camps, Fatah led my Mahmoud Abbas, and the Hamas, which is heavily influenced by Iran.
I don't like Israeli extremists either, but at some point, I don't think Israel can just sit idle when rockets are fired from civilian positions and fired on Israeli civilians.
Palestinian terrorists are evil cowards and they don't hesitate to put civilian in danger and talk about martyrdom.
Palestinians have been protesting Mahmoud Abbas, and as long as Palestinians are unable to gain leadership and organize, violence will continue. I really dislike how people have been blaming Israel as a whole. The extremist government surely has responsbility, but I'm curious about how de-escalation will be possible.
How do you feel about an entity committing war crimes and pretend to get involved in humanitarian efforts inside the US? Do think it's suspicious? Or genuine efforts, killing in one part and aiding in another. Seriously, I am curious to know. Do you think it's just about helping or more about the media campaign? And how do you consider war crimes nonsensical inflammatory thing? Well, at least it is not a "thing".
Yes - war is bad. Israel is always ready for peace. I can link you to a list of all the offers that have been made for peace. Additionally, you do know that there is no IDF in Gaza and that Gaza shares a border also with Egypt (strangely they keep it closed). They are free to live there peacefully and grow their prosperity.
it's all good ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
cool to critisize anything and anyone. It just comes off as a very different vibe when compared to other HN discussions.
Everyone here is so smart and inquisitive, but when the issue is middle east the gang seems to take a shallow, dogmatic take on something they absolutely do not understand. For so many independent thinkers there's a lot of knee jerk group think
>but when the issue is middle east the gang seems to take a shallow, dogmatic take on something they absolutely do not understand. For so many independent thinkers there's a lot of knee jerk group think
And China. And American foreign policy. And anything related to or that even mentions sex, gender or race. And the media. And economics. And COVID. And RMS. This place is legendary for its aggressively ignorant and toxic hot takes on just about everything but technology[0], especially if it requires empathy, emotional reasoning or an understanding of mainstream society.
[0] With the possible exception of Javascript or the modern web in general, mention of either of which sometimes sends people into a frothing rage.
That I doubt very much. In my opinion we are seeing a clear on going colonization effort. This is not about religion or race, but about land and the rest is a distraction.
Because we are not in the eighteen century anymore, it can't be done old European style, so it has to be done boiling frog style with a lot of spending in public relations.
The crude fact is that land is being taken by the strongest party:
No mention of ethnic cleansing and military checkpoint enforced apartheid where kids are harassed by fully armed soldiers? Do you want to see the B'TSelem videos? Here they detail a 5 year old child:
https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20130711_soldiers_det...
Strange - Occupied it is not. Defensive removal of rocket infrastructure seems ok.
Another question: do fighting nations generally supply electricity, medicine and water to entities raining missles down on their civilians indiscriminately?
Ironically, by your own admission, you simply highlighted Israel's infrastructure control on Gaza. So it's not merely a military occupier but controls food, water and electricity supplies to the imprisoned population. But hey, thanks for your generosity to allow a trickle of aid supplies through.
"Transfers of fuel for the power plant were stopped by Israel during the Gaza War in May 2021 and resumed by the end of June."
I mean what else are people going to talk about? The IDF is best known for bombing civilians. That's their shtick. It's hard to have a balanced conversation about them without at least bringing that up, especially when the topic is "collapsed building".
They are not bombing people, they are warning them (and also calling and texting them) to get out so that thee are no/limited civilian casualties and only the infra is destroyed which is housing rockets etc
Sure, how about I drop a 30 second "door knock" before I blow your life to smithereens because I feel like your 10 story building might be hiding a few kalashnikovs? Feel free to evacuate to the few hundred meters of free space in the world's largest open air prison. The simple fact is: this is colonialist ethnic cleansing and the only reason it goes unchecked is because of historic Western guilt uncritically favouring the Israeli state for geopolitical reasons.
> the only reason it goes unchecked is because of historic Western guilt uncritically favouring the Israeli state for geopolitical reasons.
That is not true. It is the US alone whose conscience is tarnished. If it wasn't for the US, I am sure the rest of the developed world would not stand for such injustice.
Nope. The UK also has plenty of tarnished conscience (we were the mandate holder for Palestine immediately before the creation of Israel and played communities against each other, as we normally did in our colonies). The French also played their dishonourable part in carving up the middle east with us. Plenty of guilt to go around.
A growing number of Europeans are also getting their eyes up for the fact that it has been one small democracy (kind of) against a whole region of warlords propped up by oil money from the gulf.
It used to be for years that newspapers only wrote "Israel bombed". Now they write "Israel bombed [...] after days of rocket attacs".
Hopefully it will soon be: "After days of unprovoked attacks Israel demolished weapons".
At that point maybe we can get UN soldiers on the ground to catch the torturists and warmongers in Gaza and elsewhere, get rid of the rockets, restart schools with a curriculum that doesn't include death wishes for their closest neigbours etc.
In addition, Iran is financing and using Gaza as a proxy war with Israel.
I wouldn't call the IDF "100% humane", as they deliberately shoot reporters, but they are fighting a defensive war to avoid being pushed into the sea - there is no peace treaty with their neighbors.
Arab countries have had decades to offer to resetttle Palestinians and Uighurs, but not a peep.
> I wouldn't call the IDF "100% humane", as they deliberately shoot reporters,
sources?
> Arab countries have had decades to offer to resetttle Palestinians and Uighurs, but not a peep.
Also remember that far more jews have been chased from their homes in lands around Israel than Arabs from within Israel, the major difference being that Israel integrated its own people instead of abusing them as a living pawn in a horrible game.
Also remember that Israel tried to get Arabs to stay but they were convinced by their own to leave to make "cleansing" the area easier in 1948.
I do however sometimes help foreigners, girls etc but I don't brag about it under my real name nor do I start crusades against anyone just because they are white or male or straight or anything so no, definitely not SJW.
My only question was because of you claim that IDF shoots reporters in the knees like it is a well known fact and I haven't heard that before.
That should keep you busy for a couple of days, since it's IDF policy.
They shoot foreign reporters in the legs/knees, but Arab reporters fatally. The targeted shooting proves it's deliberate, and the fact this has happened for decades that it's policy.
Great! During the week they're killing children and civilians in the land they stole, on the weekend they're making up with a citytrip to the US to do some good deeds. After that it's back to bulldozing houses and schools in Palestine.
Today in the Jewish controlled press: Israel is doing great thing X (They left out the chance to point out how bad their neighbors are in comparison).
And: "Great thing X" = Recovering... dead... bodies... fast... to help relatives (goyims) to come to terms faster (everything is so typically jewish about this "help", thank you, chosen people).
Isn't there any place where you could do something with/for goyims before they die :-D :-D :-D?
Do you(jews) even see what you do and how this is (at least subconsciously) perceived?:
You are helping other ethnicities recover their dead... fast... and you are super proud of it (knowing a lot of details).
"The United Nations has rebuked Israel for carrying out what it said was the biggest demolition of Palestinian homes in the occupied West Bank for a decade.
Some 73 people, including 41 children, were made homeless when their dwellings were knocked down in the Bedouin settlement of Khirbet Humsa, in the Jordan Valley, the UN said."
Actually it's entirely on topic because it shows an alternative reality starkly juxtaposed against humanitarian propaganda. I have no doubt if this was China or Russia or Saudi Arabia being discussed it would be fair game. Israel deserves to be held to a far higher level of scrutiny given its military might is entirely funded by US tax payers and AIPAC controlled Congress.
When even AP wouldn't dare criticise Israel for destroying its building in Gaza, it's clear there's a need for a counter narrative to the one sided propaganda. And the one Jewish woman who dared to open her mouth was immediately fired: https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Emily-Wilder-Associa...
wait what's a Hamas teacher or a Hamas nurse? Look at Al-Shifa hospital. Built by the Israelis, today a hospital, rocket launch site, bunker and ammunitions cache all in one.
IDF's responsibility is to keep Israeli citizens safe(jews, muslims and christians). If someone across the border is using firing thousands of rockets at civilians then the IDF is going to step in.
Unfortunately the retaliation which will lead to the fewest civilian deaths will be bombing the launch site ( a civilian building).
What's the alternative? Mount a massive land invasion into a booby trapped hell hole?
Maybe stop stealing land and attacking worshippers on the Temple Mount? Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan speak for themselves. Rockets don't just come out of nowhere for a recreational activity.
"Maybe stop stealing land and attacking worshippers on the Temple Mount?"
You know what the "temple" in temple mount is right? the dome is literally built on top of the rubble of two jewish temples. Jews can only go there on specific days+hours, aren't allowed to even pray.
For extra effect: it's also allegedly where jesus used to go pray. Some people might argue that israelites are the ones who got their land stolen.
That place is over the top contentious.
Of course I agree that attacking worshippers is wrong. No one should be cool about that. Nonetheless, worth checking the "attacking worshippers".
"Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan speak for themselves"
Do they though? Sheik Jarrah is a private citizen dispute. Literally two groups of citizens deliberating on who owns what.
"Rockets don't just come out of nowhere for a recreational activity.""
Yeah they do.
From here it looks like you're defending sending thousands of rockets (unguided) pointed at civilians. Hamas has nothing to do with Sheik Jarrah. Hamas only wants to create more conflict so that it can justify it's existence.
Have you read their manifesto? It doesn't want peace, it want's the destruction of israel. Doesn't seem very negotiable.
The entire movement is predicated on struggle and conflict. Not peace and harmony.
Unfortunately for Hamas, the rocket launches are a recreational activity.
I did! Although it was pertaining to "relatiation" i'm happy to offer my two cents on this as well.
Almost that entire sentence exists today in israel. Rights are the same for all israeli citizens. Israeli muslims and israeli jews have the same rights inside the state of israel. Muslims are the third largest political party (and are part of the current coalition), they are supreme court judges (heck, a muslim judge sentenced the jewish president to prison).
On Aliyah: Im not too familiar with how different it is to Aliyah as a jew then as a muslim, but it's more likely to be easier as jew. The general idea is that it's a jewish state.
Most people here will be opposed to a jewish state, that's fine. Humanity has an awful track record with the jews, might be best to finally let them be autonomous.
"Rather than just a first world playground for one faction."
Not entirely sure what this means.
> You did ask.
Yep :) and glad you did. Personally I think a two state solution is more viable. What I don't think is constructive is assuming that the entire onus is on one side. Takes two to tango, right?
WestBank palestinians have had two leaders. Ever. Arafat was adamant about establishing power, while Abbas is eager to keep it. That's why he's completing his 14th year in his 4 year mandate. He keeps cancelling elections because if Hamas wins (like they did in Gaza) he will at best be exiled. Just recently he had an opposition leader assassinated.https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/palestinian...
Fatah is hell bent in keeping the status quo.
Hamas is hell bent in destroying Israel. It's in their charter. They're way more extreme than Fatah.
Plenty of mosques in Israel, 2 million muslims there living peacefully. Can't say the same about palestinian territories where jews and synagogues are not allowedd.
It seems you'd just like Israel to take all the responsibility for the conflict, cease to exist and roll over. Hopefully I'm wrong.
>You aren't equal (as in indistinguishably, truly equal) without both.
If you live in the country the law is the same for everyone. No? Don't know what the obligations are. I'm not the "you" , clearly you're super knowledgable, go for it.
> But a nice attempt to frame the conversation. [Do they send you on courses?]
Errr thanks?
Humanity has tried the whole "jews living under arab rule" before and it sucked. You can bash the israelis all you want but they're doing a much better job than anything a palestinian/arab rule would do to jews.
The comment you replied to was hyperbolic, but it has a point. Why are my taxes going towards paying for 30% of Israel's military?? They do nothing to improve the safety and stability of my country, in fact they increase geopolitical tensions.
> The Israeli military said the structures had been built illegally.
Is not the job of the army to declare what is legal or illegal in a democracy. Countries have a judicature system for that.
A bomb destroying your home with one minute warning is not equivalent to a court order, and can't replace it. Would be seen in any real democracy with a minimum respect by the rule of law as a ridiculously illegal move (and severely prosecuted).
Wow, what a bunch of anti Semitic, racist assholes HN has. This story is about a humanitarian effort, and all you people can do is start your once again bogus tirade. Kudos to those who posted positive thoughts and comments.
164 comments
[ 4.9 ms ] story [ 215 ms ] thread1) Despite the chaos, the debris of a collapsed building can be mapped to the structure as it was when standing.
2) All sorts of information can be used in figuring out where you are - the breed of a dog corpse, a scrap of paper with the name of a victim's rabbi...
3) Be skeptical of secondary sources (estimates of the number of victims...)
4) Bureaucrats will be obstructive just by doing their job as if nothing has happened (we can't tell you that...)
One thing that was not mentioned, but which I imagine was part of the calculus, is what people are likely to do at the first sign of trouble (in this case, noise and shaking) - head for the stairs, go to the window, wait for it to stop...
Of all the things the article covers, I'm most interested to know more about how they interview friends and family so quickly and efficiently, when things are still so raw and emotional. It does say that half the team is dedicated to that task, at least initially.
I can definitely see this as plausible.
The chilling and sad realization that it wasn't "They found 84 out of 100 victims"
ETA: 81, not 80.
>he knew precisely where each victim would be located.
>He personally found 20. His team, he said, recovered 81 by the time the last member departed Surfside on July 11.
Even the freaking byline reads:
>The Israeli Defense Forces’ National Rescue Unit recovered 81 of the 97 victims from the Champlain Towers South condo collapse site in Surfside.
2. The irony is that you are the one overthinking by going as far as to suggest weighing flesh. One can recover a body from the waist up and consider it 50%.
finding 100% of the victims should have been possible, but of course countries spend more on killing... I think they are just trying to bring Israel's image up since they are killing so many innocent people in the Gaza Strip... For some reason, Biden loves Israel (is that because of their religion? IE: they believe the same lies that he does)
Here's the tribute Miami-Date Fire Rescue gave their plane before it took off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina
Anyway, none of their claims legitimize Israelis actions in killing and terrorizing Palestinians, including women and children:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/28/hldterrorising-a-ge...
They want to wash the bloods off their hand in the public view. They have killed more than 100k Palestinians since they have occupied their land in 1948. And the fun fact here is that the IDF has roots in the terrorist groups like Haganah, Irgun and Lehi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)
Even today, IDF is a terror group and executes terror plots across the world. This is separate from their daily killing and torture of the Palestinians.
Many countries have disaster recovery teams specifically tasked with assisting in international catastrophes, the Israeli one happens to be a division of the IDF, probably for budgetary reasons.
Given that Israel has mandatory military service, it may have something to do with allowing that service to count.
I can imagine that for a typical volunteer, pulling body parts out of rubble would be a fairly life changing event, and the number of people in the world with the experience and grit to tackle this gracefully can't be a long list.
Actually they don't really have similar "field experience" from Israel (fortunately). They do have a bunch of training with artificially made piles of rubbles and whenever something happens somewhere in the world (earthquakes, tsunamis, etc) they usually among first to arrive.
Countries that seemed far away and uninvolved had teams touching down at staggered intervals and brought resources and skill that really helped.
International search and rescue seems to be a little world of its own that operates away from the noise and bickering of ‘normal’ international relations.
There's a lot of solidarity between countries on the Ring of Fire when it comes to natural disasters. We even had the Californians turn up alongside the other countries.
Likewise, rural firefighters from NZ, Australia and California routinely travel to each other's countries when backup is needed.
It's the implicit reciprocity, and real life training opportunities that drive it. Otherwise your training is all stimulated, like covering a bunch of mannequins in sheep offal...
https://www.police.govt.nz/news/ten-one-magazine/dvi-trainin...
In Israel, regardless of political affiliation, religious beliefs or anything else, they're understood to be the true heroes that they are. No one else exhaustively pursues these events to conclusion. There's a reason that their mantra is חסד של אמת, which is best translated as true lovingkindness. Yes, in Hebrew lovingkindess is a concept that is different than "loving kindness".
It's simpler than you're making it out to be - "ḥesed shel emet" (true kindness) is based on the Talmudic idea that the truest kindness is that done for the dead, since they can't ever pay you back.
Also ZAKA is not related to the IDF or this mission.
What's the difference?
Also, lovingkindness is an English word , not Hebrew. Chesed shel emet is three Hebrew words.
It almost always takes a nation (Like IDF) to collapse a building. Second thought would be they have no direct experience.
They are however prepared. And like most altruistic.
Not saying it's "bad" at all for Israel to send in experts. But it's important to realize that governments selectively help people in other countries for political reasons sometimes.
Would they have sent in their experts if the building was full of Palestinians?
> This is it. There will be no more than 98 or 99. Not a single one more.
Precision of a surgeon or sniper with first principles first. Initially, it would seem like a waste to do this work, but it clearly helped.
It is amazing to see how they work to save those people, at the same time terrifying to think how they got those experience with all those never ending wars throughout their lifetime.
Salut to the team for helping those in grief.
Also from wikipedia: >Distinct from possible construction defects, an analysis of European Remote-Sensing Satellite data by Florida International University indicates that the building had been sinking during the 1990s at a significant rate of about two millimeters (0.079 in) per year. While 97 percent of Miami Beach had been stable, 1,555 of 18,949 points in Miami Beach had been sinking, at a rate of less than one millimeter (0.039 in) per year.
This is actually terrifying to hear
> In 2018, an inspection performed by the engineering firm Morabito Consultants showed a "major error" in the construction of the pool deck, whereby the waterproofing layer was not sloped. Water that collected on the waterproofing remained until it could evaporate. Over the years, the concrete slabs below the pool deck had been severely damaged by this water. The report noted the waterproofing below the pool deck was beyond its useful life and needed to be completely removed and replaced.
> On June 30, WLS-TV in Chicago publicized a bystander's video of water pouring into the parking garage from above near its entrance, and apparent concrete rubble lying on the floor, apparently taken at 1:18 a.m., seven minutes before the north-central portion of the building collapsed.
From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse#...
https://abc7chicago.com/florida-collapse-video-miami-condo-t...
It's really an intelligence unit with the added capacity of excavating and moving rubble. I can see the usefulness of this for an army. Buildings, especially buildings targeted during conflicts, contain precious and strategical objects and information. Being able to recover them is crucial.
I'm not entirely sure why, my gut feeling is that it's something primitive in the human animal, but I've witnessed it enough to respect the effort SAR teams put into body recovery.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/27/gaza-apparent-war-crimes...
You can guess how the response of Gaza will look like...
Also, I'd take HRW with a grain of salt when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even their founder has expressed concern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watc....
Might be interesting: https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/palestinians-accuse-hamas-...
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...
Yes. Bias here. Whoever wrote this has not been reading history closely enough.
I will continue to support Amnesty though. One of the better ones IMO, together with MSF.
They've been doing it for years. The odd ones are the one's who aren't reporting it.
The fact that you linked to a jpost article and shined light on the little israel does to “save” lives after literally bombarding them tells me where you stand in relation to the conflict.
regarding my stance in relation to the conflict: - I think (and know) that Israel does more to save palestinian lives than the palestinian government. The evidence is endless. I can link to other new sources if Jpost is unnaceptable. - I saw a lot of people completely demonizing one side of the conflict. Hell, I'd like to see everyone holding Hamas to the same standards. - I've seen very strong words (apartheid, colonial, genocidal...) with... no evidence to support it.
e.g. see https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entir...
Avoiding civilian casualties is however extremely hard when you deal with people who:
- fire rockets from schools, hospitals and generally populated areas (there are wide fields they could have used)
- encourage people to stay when they get informed about bombing
- count bombed terrorists as civilians (lists exist with names and photos of claimed "civilians" in uniforms and with guns)
- when hitting a stash of rockets in the middle of a neighborhood there's always a chance something flies further than the original blast
- "civilian casualties of Israeli bombing" also contains a good number of casualties of defect arab terrorist rockets.
Furthermore: it has always started on the Arab ("Palestinian") side the last years.
A massive difference exist if someone gets hurt after they started the fight or not.
The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2]. They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3].
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLhXRDS1Dtw
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyLzRv_kNXU
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_war_beach_bombing_in...
I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians?
> Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes.
This is another important discussion. However the recent east Jerusalem case has been about Jewish homes that was given to Arab families during the short Jordanian rule of the area, wasn't it?
> Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering.
I cannot support everything Israelis do. If this is correct and the kids where unarmed etc this is a war crime and should be punished as such.
> Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach.
Extremely sad case. Also possible reason for war crimes investigation, but:
It would be extremely ironic if that case gets prosecuted while the even worse guys who start a war from this area doesn't get prosecuted.
Israelis are to blame here for not being careful enough, "Palestinian leaders" for starting this.
> The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1].
No, they are quite clear that it is civilian buildings - only with significant presence of legitimate targets.
> They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2].
Link does not support your claim?
> They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3].
Again, link does not support your claim.
[...]
> I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians?
I do not dehumanize them.
I feel terribly sorry for them.
They are suffering more than the Israelis now.
But the solution isn't to continue to ostracize the least unreasonable part of the conflict and turn a blind eye to the ones who keeps starting this "war" again and again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyLzRv_kNXU
I wonder how many instances of this kind of targeting occur without a video recording being leaked to the public.
But why are we surprised by this? This has been going on since before Israel when terrorist groups like the Haganah and the Levi would terrorize Palestinians to force them to flee. Of course this policy continues because the leaders of these groups later became prime ministers, presidents, and generals.
Israel is a presently criminal state (settler colonialism is a crime) with a criminal and bloody history. We aren’t ostracizing it — we are pointing out the facts and demanding justice.
One of the differences between me and you is that I admit Israelis have faults.
What you say is of course to some degree right.
But presenting it this way without mentioning all the Arab terrorist groups, how the Arabs sided with the nazis etc makes it a huge lie anyway because it makes people think it is one sided.
It isn't.
And media is constantly fueling the same lie.
Anyhow, what makes this feel like such a low misrepresentation are the historical facts that Arabs were taking in the Jewish victims and refugees that the Nazis were forcing out of Germany while the Europeans and Americans were refusing them.
Good point. In all fairness you do have some good points and if you stick to them I say you have a better story.
Then we can soon start discussing the real problems.
But I am fully aware that Israel has some serious problems so this always starts with me and others shattering the illusion that media and others have created over the last 40 years that this is one sided and that a simple good solution exists.
I wish Arabs living in Palestine and everywhere else all well and I can even kind of understand them.
My biggest problem is well meaning but uninformed journalists and forum participants who keep fueling this from the sidelines - and I wish you well as well.
I think you assume a lot when you say that people post “from the sidelines”. I would say that given the huge number of Palestinian victims some the people who post on the forums have probably suffered a loss of family/property/livelihood because of the Israelis.
[1] https://www.npr.org/2021/05/23/999563043/gaza-residents-acce...
Terrible. Either I'd feel terrible because I was oppressed by the Israelis or less likely I guess because I realized I was oppressed by Hamas and Iran.
Again: I see both sides. If everyone here where overwhelmingly denying Israel ever did anything wrong I could play another role.
That never happens though so I am relegated to always inform people about basic pro Israel facts.
While we are on this topic: how is this a “both sides” issue? Let’s keep it simple and not try to compare Israel oppression of gazans to the Hamas/Iran oppression. Please explain to us how does Hamas and Iran oppress West Bank Palestinians?
I mean Hamas has a pretty strong grip over what gets said and written in Gaza.
> Please explain to us how does Hamas and Iran oppress West Bank Palestinians?
Torture, disappearances, embezzlement of aid, using civilians as shields. Iran comes in as supporters.
Yes, in some way this is not a both sides issue. One side is almost a normal democracy, the other is run by a cleptocratic regime that refuses to hold elections.
If you think you’ll find any war zone with pretty pictures and pink unicorns you’re dead wrong.
Look at Afghanistan. Look at Iraq. Look at Iran. Even Myanmar.
What you’re doing with your videos is biased emotional guilt. It’s disingenuous.
Mind you most of the countries I mentioned are fighting among one another. The Palestinians fight, threaten and kill one another as well as keep a perpetual state of moving the goal posts when it comes to any notion of an agreement. So yes, you see people who are sympathetic to the Israeli cause dehumanize them. Is it right? No. But opresee’s hands are exactly clean either. Not even when it comes to their own people.
I don't like Israeli extremists either, but at some point, I don't think Israel can just sit idle when rockets are fired from civilian positions and fired on Israeli civilians.
Palestinian terrorists are evil cowards and they don't hesitate to put civilian in danger and talk about martyrdom.
Palestinians have been protesting Mahmoud Abbas, and as long as Palestinians are unable to gain leadership and organize, violence will continue. I really dislike how people have been blaming Israel as a whole. The extremist government surely has responsbility, but I'm curious about how de-escalation will be possible.
e.g. hamas behavior: https://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318367/hamas-finally-admit...
Why did you post such a nonsensical inflammatory thing?
Israel is not pretending to get involved; they sent personnel who helped remove people from the rubble.
Your warcrimes comment is not fact based; so I feel nothing about that.
In conclusion 1) israel sent this team and they did help 2) how can i possibly know the intent, all we can see is the action, and it is help.
Have you seen IDF actions in Gaza?
Have you seen Hamas' work in Gaza: https://news.yahoo.com/gaza-city-blast-kills-1-091252256.htm...
Jimmy - since I cant reply to your comment below:
No this is not about hamas, but neither was this about Gaza. This was about rescuing people from a collapsed building. Yet here we are.
Is the thread about Hamas? Or is it a try to change the subject?
seconds later the scope has become "everything israel does is wrong, look at gaza, something something apartheid"
Everyone here is so smart and inquisitive, but when the issue is middle east the gang seems to take a shallow, dogmatic take on something they absolutely do not understand. For so many independent thinkers there's a lot of knee jerk group think
And China. And American foreign policy. And anything related to or that even mentions sex, gender or race. And the media. And economics. And COVID. And RMS. This place is legendary for its aggressively ignorant and toxic hot takes on just about everything but technology[0], especially if it requires empathy, emotional reasoning or an understanding of mainstream society.
[0] With the possible exception of Javascript or the modern web in general, mention of either of which sometimes sends people into a frothing rage.
That I doubt very much. In my opinion we are seeing a clear on going colonization effort. This is not about religion or race, but about land and the rest is a distraction.
Because we are not in the eighteen century anymore, it can't be done old European style, so it has to be done boiling frog style with a lot of spending in public relations.
The crude fact is that land is being taken by the strongest party:
https://sites.psu.edu/anaouf2/files/2017/02/israel-palestine...
I have not doubt that the IDF did great, but you have to recognize that this article reads like a puff piece.
Or "1 shot 2 kills" military tshirts for killing pregnant Palestnian women? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7960071.stm
Hmmm:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...
Another question: do fighting nations generally supply electricity, medicine and water to entities raining missles down on their civilians indiscriminately?
Great read for the uninformed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_State_of_Palesti...
"Transfers of fuel for the power plant were stopped by Israel during the Gaza War in May 2021 and resumed by the end of June."
>Defensive removal of rocket infrastructure seems ok.
That's offensive removal of rockets, iron dome is defensive removal of (flying) rockets.
Not fact based? I don't know how anyone can possibly deny what Israel is doing is literally war crimes par excellence.
Illegally occupying and settling foreign land? Bombing civilians? Open air prison? Multiple armed attacks in foreign countries like Iran and Iraq?
The UN, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, among the authorities on human rights and war crimes agree with that.
https://www.axios.com/israel-nso-pegasus-spyware-crisis-3115...
The Zionists actually collapsed the building so they could distract from a cellphone hacking company being in the news.
/s
Yes lets downplay it, sounds much better right?
https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/252454013/NSO-Gro...
>Zionists actually collapsed the building
Are you a politician? Making fun about something very serious to undermine facts (the feel-good campaign)?
IDF is best known for fighting defensive wars from aggressive arab armies. More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces
Additionally they are known for rescue operations. A few examples below: -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Magic_Carpet_(Yemen)
They are also known for civilian rescue operations: -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe
Finally, they are considered one of the best trained, most humane armies in the world. It's literally in their mission statement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_of_arms
Examples: roof knocks -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
I am sorry but in what world does purposefully bombing civilians mean they are one of the "most humane armies in the world".
The defense of "but we are only using little bombs to bomb civilians" is almost beyond parody.
That is not true. It is the US alone whose conscience is tarnished. If it wasn't for the US, I am sure the rest of the developed world would not stand for such injustice.
It used to be for years that newspapers only wrote "Israel bombed". Now they write "Israel bombed [...] after days of rocket attacs".
Hopefully it will soon be: "After days of unprovoked attacks Israel demolished weapons".
At that point maybe we can get UN soldiers on the ground to catch the torturists and warmongers in Gaza and elsewhere, get rid of the rockets, restart schools with a curriculum that doesn't include death wishes for their closest neigbours etc.
Well, one can dream.
Here is a very short joke: the UN.
> "door knock"
is a hellfire missile being blown up above someone's home.
In addition, Iran is financing and using Gaza as a proxy war with Israel.
I wouldn't call the IDF "100% humane", as they deliberately shoot reporters, but they are fighting a defensive war to avoid being pushed into the sea - there is no peace treaty with their neighbors.
Arab countries have had decades to offer to resetttle Palestinians and Uighurs, but not a peep.
sources?
> Arab countries have had decades to offer to resetttle Palestinians and Uighurs, but not a peep.
Also remember that far more jews have been chased from their homes in lands around Israel than Arabs from within Israel, the major difference being that Israel integrated its own people instead of abusing them as a living pawn in a horrible game.
Also remember that Israel tried to get Arabs to stay but they were convinced by their own to leave to make "cleansing" the area easier in 1948.
2) The SJWs, regardless of side, refuse to recognize there is a war. Protesting isn't going to solve anything since neither side has anywhere to go.
3) There was plenty of media coverage of Iran involvement recently. Again, if you're a SJW and don't know that, you're misguided.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/irans-role-in-the-latest-g...
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/555594-irans-desta...
I do however sometimes help foreigners, girls etc but I don't brag about it under my real name nor do I start crusades against anyone just because they are white or male or straight or anything so no, definitely not SJW.
My only question was because of you claim that IDF shoots reporters in the knees like it is a well known fact and I haven't heard that before.
That should keep you busy for a couple of days, since it's IDF policy.
They shoot foreign reporters in the legs/knees, but Arab reporters fatally. The targeted shooting proves it's deliberate, and the fact this has happened for decades that it's policy.
/s
And: "Great thing X" = Recovering... dead... bodies... fast... to help relatives (goyims) to come to terms faster (everything is so typically jewish about this "help", thank you, chosen people).
Isn't there any place where you could do something with/for goyims before they die :-D :-D :-D?
Do you(jews) even see what you do and how this is (at least subconsciously) perceived?:
You are helping other ethnicities recover their dead... fast... and you are super proud of it (knowing a lot of details).
Coming up in the replies soon: Israel=/=Jews
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54823660
"The United Nations has rebuked Israel for carrying out what it said was the biggest demolition of Palestinian homes in the occupied West Bank for a decade.
Some 73 people, including 41 children, were made homeless when their dwellings were knocked down in the Bedouin settlement of Khirbet Humsa, in the Jordan Valley, the UN said."
US provides Israel with roughly $5-6B in military funding which has to be spent back with US suppliers (please add details if anyone has it)
The total IDF budget in 2011 (latest I could find and has increased) is over $20b.
more reading: -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Budget -https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/4/infographic-what-you... (aljazeera of all places!)
I dont think $6B=$20B.
Curious why you find that curious.
I don't think they've ever produced anything remotely truthful about the region. ever.
That's why it's curious
Going back to the AlJazeera aspect: Qatar funds Hamas (one source cites 400m USD in 2014) AND provides the "right media coverage" through AlJazeera.
From where I'm standing it doesn't look like there is one sided propaganda
Ah, so its OK to drop bombs on the entire building then?
So, by extrapolation, if there is a Hamas teacher or a Hamas nurse in a school or hospital, then the IDF can wipe those out too?
Nice.
IDF's responsibility is to keep Israeli citizens safe(jews, muslims and christians). If someone across the border is using firing thousands of rockets at civilians then the IDF is going to step in.
Unfortunately the retaliation which will lead to the fewest civilian deaths will be bombing the launch site ( a civilian building).
What's the alternative? Mount a massive land invasion into a booby trapped hell hole?
That place is over the top contentious. Of course I agree that attacking worshippers is wrong. No one should be cool about that. Nonetheless, worth checking the "attacking worshippers".
"Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan speak for themselves" Do they though? Sheik Jarrah is a private citizen dispute. Literally two groups of citizens deliberating on who owns what.
"Rockets don't just come out of nowhere for a recreational activity."" Yeah they do. From here it looks like you're defending sending thousands of rockets (unguided) pointed at civilians. Hamas has nothing to do with Sheik Jarrah. Hamas only wants to create more conflict so that it can justify it's existence. Have you read their manifesto? It doesn't want peace, it want's the destruction of israel. Doesn't seem very negotiable.
The entire movement is predicated on struggle and conflict. Not peace and harmony.
Unfortunately for Hamas, the rocket launches are a recreational activity.
A single multicultural country, with equal (ie. indistinguishable) rights and obligations (including Aliyah) to every 'type' of citizen.
Rather than just a first world playground for one faction.
You did ask.
Almost that entire sentence exists today in israel. Rights are the same for all israeli citizens. Israeli muslims and israeli jews have the same rights inside the state of israel. Muslims are the third largest political party (and are part of the current coalition), they are supreme court judges (heck, a muslim judge sentenced the jewish president to prison).
On Aliyah: Im not too familiar with how different it is to Aliyah as a jew then as a muslim, but it's more likely to be easier as jew. The general idea is that it's a jewish state. Most people here will be opposed to a jewish state, that's fine. Humanity has an awful track record with the jews, might be best to finally let them be autonomous.
"Rather than just a first world playground for one faction." Not entirely sure what this means.
> You did ask.
Yep :) and glad you did. Personally I think a two state solution is more viable. What I don't think is constructive is assuming that the entire onus is on one side. Takes two to tango, right? WestBank palestinians have had two leaders. Ever. Arafat was adamant about establishing power, while Abbas is eager to keep it. That's why he's completing his 14th year in his 4 year mandate. He keeps cancelling elections because if Hamas wins (like they did in Gaza) he will at best be exiled. Just recently he had an opposition leader assassinated.https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/palestinian...
Fatah is hell bent in keeping the status quo.
Hamas is hell bent in destroying Israel. It's in their charter. They're way more extreme than Fatah.
Plenty of mosques in Israel, 2 million muslims there living peacefully. Can't say the same about palestinian territories where jews and synagogues are not allowedd.
It seems you'd just like Israel to take all the responsibility for the conflict, cease to exist and roll over. Hopefully I'm wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realignment_plan
I said 'same rights and same obligations'.
You aren't equal (as in indistinguishably, truly equal) without both.
But a nice attempt to frame the conversation. [Do they send you on courses?]
If you live in the country the law is the same for everyone. No? Don't know what the obligations are. I'm not the "you" , clearly you're super knowledgable, go for it.
> But a nice attempt to frame the conversation. [Do they send you on courses?] Errr thanks?
Humanity has tried the whole "jews living under arab rule" before and it sucked. You can bash the israelis all you want but they're doing a much better job than anything a palestinian/arab rule would do to jews.
Well of course they did. Would any military say otherwise in the same situation?
Morality does not subscribe to some kind of arithmetic where doing good deeds can somehow cancel the evil that you also commit.
Is not the job of the army to declare what is legal or illegal in a democracy. Countries have a judicature system for that.
A bomb destroying your home with one minute warning is not equivalent to a court order, and can't replace it. Would be seen in any real democracy with a minimum respect by the rule of law as a ridiculously illegal move (and severely prosecuted).