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Ask HN: Will there ever be a vendor agnostic GPU interface?

97 points by slmjkdbtl ↗ HN
We moved from almost write once run anywhere OpenGL to vendor-dependent Vulkan / D3D12 / Metal / WebGPU, which is kinda impossible to support all without heavy abstraction layers and shader transpilers. Is there any possibility that we'll have easy cross platform in graphics realm in the future?

102 comments

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PeterisP
IMHO the requirements for that to happen would be a major slowdown in the "GPU race" where consumers consider that they have "enough" power and features, companies are not able to convince them otherwise and get pushed to commoditize and standartize the products as every product "ticks all the checkboxes", and one of those checkboxes happens to be good standards support. Alternatively, extreme fragmentation might force that, it happened decades ago when there very many video card manufacturers, but it's impossible now given the huge barriers of entry for competitive GPUs.

But while companies are able to differentiate their products feature wise (or even if they can't, but strongly believe they can), the incentives are set against it, so it's not likely to happen, the GPU vendors will push for vendor-specific aspects.

KennyBlanken
I'd say raytracing was NVIDIA trying to distract everyone from the fact that their GPUs had in fact been 'enough' for a while. "RTX ON" was widely meme'd when the first RTX cards came out (edit: partly because at the time game publishers weren't really making good RTX games. Raytracing is mostly pointless if the game publisher doesn't bother to put a lot of effort into scene design, materials, and lighting. Control is a great example of a game that is gorgeous even without raytracing, and reportedly looks even better with raytracing turned on.)

I don't think the current state could be described as a "race".

NVIDIA makes good stuff and great drivers but charges a fortune (+$1500 for a high end GPU?!) AMD has made space heaters that happen to have video-out ports and their cards are useless for compute work because so many projects support CUDA and nothing else. Their current lineup cheats benchmarks by overclocking the cards and thermally throttling shortly after the time it takes to run a typical benchmark.

Edit: since I'm now being 'corrected': look at the TDP for same-generation, same-product-tier NVIDIA and AMD cards. AMD's cards have always used more power for similar performance.

People think certain GPUs "run hot" because

- they buy the cheapest GPU they can which means the heatsink and fans are terrible

- they don't adjust the stock fan curve (most GPUs these days don't even turn on the fans until they hit 60c and only max out the fans when the GPU die temperature is very hot because people care mostly about noise

- they don't have a well-ventilated case (note I said well-ventilated, not "stuffed with fans)

Buy a properly ventilated case, a mid-or-high-tier card from a reputable manufacturer, and adjust the fan curve. Find the temperature the card sits at during light desktop use and set the fans to kick in slightly above that. Then force the fans to run at full speed and benchmark, seeing what the die temperature maxxes out at. Set the fan curve to 100% at slightly below that temp.

rstat1
NVIDIA GPUs also run extremely hot, and also overclock themselves when under any substantial load.

They even have a name for it: "GPU Boost"

smoldesu
I wouldn't say they run "extremely hot", my 1050 Ti powers both my 1440p144hz display and my 1080p75hz one, and it idles just over 32c for the most part. Under load though, like all GPUs, they will push their cooling to the limit to get as close to their junction temp as possible without causing lasting damage.
KennyBlanken
I was speaking to TDP. The actual temperature the card runs at is highly dependent upon room temperature, how good the cooling solution is on the card, how well-ventilated the case is, and of course the workload. Just because windows says the GPU is "100"% doesn't mean it's using maximum power; I've had games that make the fans go crazy at "100%" and games that at "100%" the fans never leave their default.

Every vendor makes multiple tiers of a particular GPU and you generally get what you pay for, though with diminishing returns for someone who isn't looking to overclock to the edge and get a few extra FPS. Good vendors starting a tier or two above their budget tier tend to produce cards with thermal solutions that are fairly quiet at stock speeds/voltages when gaming in a properly ventilated case in a comfortably cool room.

On 1xxx series cards for example, MSI's Gaming X line come with an absolutely massive heatsink. I had an MSI 1060 Gaming X that was overclocked and fully loaded the fans weren't noticeable, much less loud, and I had a terribly ventilated case.

My current card is a 1070 ti, from a reputable manufacturer and it's a mid-tier card. I have a pretty aggressive fan curve on it because I want longevity (capacitor lifetime drops appreciably with temperature.) Even then, I almost never notice the fans, but I have upgraded to one of the most well-ventilated $100-ish cases.

Stay well clear of single fan GPUs if you intend to do any gaming or compute work beyond "very occasionally." The fan noise will drive you nuts and the card will quickly thermally throttle.

If you care about your GPU lasting, lower the fan shutoff point to be more like 35-40c instead of the usual 60c, or just set them to run at the minimum speed all the time. Fans are easy to replace; caps aren't...and a quality card, the fans should be nearly silent at minimum speed.

formerly_proven
> Just because windows says the GPU is "100"% doesn't mean it's using maximum power; I've had games that make the fans go crazy at "100%" and games that at "100%" the fans never leave their default.

There are even some games where the "GPU load" is 30 % but the card is running at 150 % power and destroying its VRMs :)

zokier
> Edit: since I'm now being 'corrected': look at the TDP for same-generation, same-product-tier NVIDIA and AMD cards. AMD's cards have always used more power for similar performance

Benchmarks disagree with that assertion:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-t...

RTX 3000 series has consistently worse perf/watt than their AMDs RX 6000 series peers

buildbot
Yeah, isn't AMD on TSMC 7nm vs. Nvidia with Samsung 8nm? Samsung has much higher power usage than TSMC from what I've heard.
dathinab
Comparing the nm between different fab factories is not very useful and can be completely non-descriptive. (Not only mean different companies different things when they say Xnm, the things they mean are also often not at all describing the performance/characteristics of it well.)

> Samsung has much higher power usage than TSMC from what I've heard.

Is possible, but weather or not Nvideas bad power efficiency comes from that or architectural decisions in their design can't really be said.

zokier
> I'd say raytracing was NVIDIA trying to distract everyone from the fact that their GPUs had in fact been 'enough' for a while

"Enough" maybe for 1080p gaming, but 4k remains still heavy for the top tier GPUs even without raytracing; there are plenty of titles where 3080ti will not hit steady 60 fps on 4k, nevermind about 120 or 144 fps.

TheMode
The same discussion will happen once 8k becomes mainstream, and then for 16k. In which case performance will never be "enough"
ksec
>I'd say raytracing was NVIDIA trying to distract everyone

That remains to be seen. The idea is that RT once fully adopted should be a lot easier for Graphics Designer while giving higher image quality. At the expense of GPU Compute.

Considering AAA Games are getting more expensive every year and Graphics Asset are by far the largest cost centre. I say on paper this seems like a very good trade off.

I dont know if 3D Models from Camera would shift the cost down. But I would really like to see some innovation in Graphics Modelling to bring the cost down by a few order of magnitude.

KennyBlanken
Vulkan is not vendor-dependent. It runs on AMD, NVIDIA, Intel, and Qualcomm chipsets. It runs on a huge number of operating systems.

(Vulkan performance on the Pi 4 just got a big performance boost, btw.)

It seems the only gotcha is that Apple is being difficult and not supporting Vulkan on MacOS, but MoltenVK is "within a handful of tests" of Vulkan 1.0 conformity.

lights0123
And MoltenVK isn't just an experiment or hobby project, it's already being used in production—one prominent example is Autodesk Fusion 360, which even uses it on M1.
Mikeb85
Apple is holding back both the open web and open graphics. They're a cancer on the industry (and why I'll never give them a penny nor ever develop for one of their platforms).
ncmncm
And, Kompute (kompute.cc) is a portable substitute for CUDA, given Vulkan 1.1.

I wonder now whether the Vulkan API is an adequate interface to securely expose GPU capabilities to multiple VMs, i.e. without those VMs being able to see other VMs' memory. If not, what would need to happen to get there?

enos_feedler
The issue is that hardware systems have evolved in a very dynamic way over the years. Initially GPUs were mostly fixed function hardware with proprietary APIs for each driver. Then we had Microsoft that was able to flex its platform power to build a vendor interface in Direct3D. Now we have Apple doing the same thing with Metal. The issue is going to be the ever increasing integration of heterogenous compute engines in unique ways. Google Tensor SoC, Apple A/M chips, etc. AMD is going to increasingly license their IP to build out custom SoC for companies like Samsung.

The best chance to build a standard on top of all this change is to not view this as a "GPU abstraction" but rather a collection of compute engines. At this layer, the place where this happens will be compiler toolchain. IMO (as ex-NVIDIA compiler guy) the best effort happening right now is MLIR [1]. I don't know if dialec is the right abstraction but thats where things are at right now. The best example is is IREE [2] which is written at Google for mapping a lot of of the sophisticated translation inference on mobile for acceleration across GPU, neural engines, etc.

[1] https://mlir.llvm.org

[2] https://google.github.io/iree/

pjmlp
Nintendo, Sony and Sega were there first.
monocasa
Arguably SGI with IRIS GL. PS1 and N64 graphics APIs were both heavily inspired by IRIS GL (N64 pretty much directly inspired being a sawed down ultra budget SGI workstation). And earlier consoles and Sega through the Saturn were more "here's docs on the hardware registers and command lists" rather than "here's an API to use".
pjmlp
Inspired doesn't run the same code.
monocasa
There's no claim here to the contrary.
corysama
How are Vulkan and WebGPU vendor dependent?
jabl
From what I've read Vulkan leaves a lot of functionality and capability as optional [1], meaning that the developer might need to create multiple code paths for different HW.

[1] As an example, Raspberry Pi 4 was recently qualified as Vulkan 1.1 conformant, even though the GPU lacks features required to pass as an OpenGL 3.0 GPU.

corysama
Having worked in highly cross-platform graphics for a very long time [1] I can say that you only get two options: 1) Separate code paths. 2) Least common denominator of the required target devices. For example: With the Pi 4 and OpenGL, you can either limit all devices to the feature set of the Pi 4 or you have a separate code path for more capable devices.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/xddlp/describe_wha...

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pcwalton
There's mostly not a reason why we couldn't have a single API other than politics. My opinionated takes (opinions mine and not those of my employer, etc.):

Vulkan: Standardized by a standards body (Khronos). In an ideal world we would all be using this.

D3D12: Microsoft likes Direct3D and has the market power to be able to push its own API. However, the situation on Windows isn't as bad as on macOS/iOS because drivers generally support Vulkan as well.

Metal: This mostly exists because Apple refuses to support anything Khronos related, for not-particularly-compelling reasons. It does have the excuse that it was being developed before Vulkan, but in 2021 its existence is not particularly well-motivated.

WebGPU: As an API, WebGPU in some form has to exist because Vulkan is not safe (in the memory-safe sense). For untrusted content on the Web, you need a somewhat higher-level API than Vulkan that automatically inserts barriers, more like Metal (though Metal is not particularly principled about this and is unsafe in some ways as well). That being said, Web Shading Language is just Apple playing politics again regarding Khronos, as the rest of the committee wanted to use SPIR-V. There's no compelling reason why Web Shading Language needs to exist.

enos_feedler
Politics only plays such a strong role because at the end of the day having a single API doesn't solve a real problem. It's desirable because it reduces the surface area of new things developers have to learn if they want to target all these systems. However, mostly different people work on different targets and it really just helps with learning. In terms of actual building, deploying etc it's probably best to have proprietary things that wrap themselves cleanly around the systems they are operate in.
pcwalton
Strong disagree as someone who spent years on a cross-platform accelerated vector graphics library in industry. Dealing with API differences and differences in tooling (Metal's tooling is far behind RenderDoc for example) took an enormous amount of my time, time that could otherwise have been spent fixing bugs and adding features.
enos_feedler
I don't disagree you had these problems. I'm just saying the market of developers in your pool is not very big. Most people are happy just learning a single platform, chip, etc and getting a job writing code against it. I get the allure of "if only every target spoke the language I Know.. then I could target all the things.." but in practice it's not really a problem
ncmncm
The sheer quantity of things not even started because of the excess cost of targeting everything absolutely dwarfs the sum total of what is now built for this or that target. We have seen this dynamic play out over and over again, in the past six+ decades, going all the way back to FORTRAN.

A standard target would multiply the size of this "market" many times over, generating additional demand for implementations throughout multiple industries. Balkanization has always been a debilitating tax on everyone, not excepting "market leaders" scrapping over the artificially reduced pie. Everyone made way more money after FORTRAN than before.

enos_feedler
if the cost is attributed to "targeting everything" as you say, then wouldn't those things just get started by targeting one thing? Neither you or I can prove there are things not invented because of this, so nothing to debate here. The reason why pcwalton spent lots of effort jumping through hoops building a vector graphics library that targets lots of platforms is because we already know that vector graphics is something we had on a single platform. It is really hard for to imagine something not being invented/created at all because there isn't a single language that can express its computation everywhere simultaneously.
ncmncm
That argument has been repeated over and over again, over decades, and is proven wildly off the mark the moment standardization enables the test, every time.

Strangely, the fact never prevents it being trotted out again, every time.

enos_feedler
The only time standardization unlocks innovation is when agreement is core to the function of the system (TCP/IP, communication protocols, etc). If it's simply to create a common abstraction across similar things, then it won't unlock anything. It's simply a nice to have.
smoldesu
Why doesn't Apple consider their GPU to be a core function of their system, then?
ncmncm
Strangely, the fact still never prevents it being trotted out again, every time.
rowanG077
A GPU is not core to the function of modern personal computers? It's not 1990 anymore. Literally every single personal computer has a GPU. In fact it would be more apt to say that nowadays you buy a GPU that has sacrificed a small part of its transistor budget to include a CPU.
ncmncm
The claim seems to be that the cited phenomenon applies only when interoperability between disjoint organizations is involved. But we see its wider applicability all the time, if only because education and similar infrastructure is exactly such an interoperation.
enos_feedler
Yes its true. Which is exactly why javascript and html gave way to a broader programmer market. This creates lots of educational content and improves the educational experience. Especially bc standards evolve slow and don’t typically break. So you can find old resources that are still useful. That being said, it doesnt create innovation. This is why you have so many web frameworks. Innovation cant truly run wild so people reorganize whats inside the box already. To get outside you must connect compute with new sensors, io, etc. and in this case standardization doesnt matter initially
smoldesu
If you find such innovation, let me know. We've given Apple just about 2 decades to blow us away here, and all we've got to show for it is Final Cut Pro.
ncmncm
Yet, every widely adopted standard leads to such an expansion of the whole market that overwhelmingly more resources become available to innovate. Thus, FORTRAN became FORTRAN II, III, IV, Fortran77, 90, driving demand for supercomputers CDC 6400, Cray, and on up. UNIX became Posix, now Linux. Bell Labs C became C++, then C++98, C++11, now C++20 and Rust. Silicon Graphics SGL became OpenGL that spawned numerous successors, and now Vulkan, which has already spawned Vulkan 1.1.

So, the "innovation" argument is always trotted out, against copious evidence. But MBAs always fall for it, and we get things like DirectX, CUDA, and Metal that invariably end up acting to stall innovation, instead.

enos_feedler
DirectX, CUDA and Metal are the product of copious amounts of innovation themselves. What is your best guess at the missing things we don’t have today because of their stalling? Just curious what you are thinking.
ncmncm
Each receives nothing but the investment allocated to it by the one or, sometimes, two or three companies under contract, to address exactly the business goals of those companies and nothing else.
pjmlp
Lots of innovation, that is why OpenGL and Vulkan were basically copying DirectX features via extension spaghetti.

Next on the pipeline, mesh shaders.

Additionally why OpenCL only cared about anything beyond C after getting punched to the ground via C++ first alongside polyglot PTX.

Khronos innovates so much that the graduation ceremony of using their APIs is to create a self built SDK, hunting for libraries and graphic debugging tools from each card vendor.

Afterwards one is worthy to wore the ring of portable 3D mighty league.

enos_feedler
Yes but in no way do gpus being able to talk to other gpus in a standard way is core to the function of computer equipped with a GPU. All that matters is that the GPU can be programmed in some way.
rowanG077
We are not talking about inter-GPU communication. Only about using a single GPU.
hollerith
Right, and he is saying that interoperability would be essential only if GPUs needed to talk to each other and is inessential in the current reality.
rowanG077
I'm not sure what you are saying. The thread is about people disagreeing with him.
kvark
I'm surprised to hear your poor experience with Metal tooling. In my book, it was always superior to RenderDoc. For example, it got able to debug shaders way before RenderDoc started supporting this on Vulkan. It also goes above and beyond with showing your render graph, performance metrics and hints. The only problem with Metal tooling is occasional bugs, but it's not like RenderDoc is clean of them either.
echelon
Apple doesn't want the web to be a viable alternative to the app store. They'll continue to choose strategies that hold it back.
slimsag
It's not so clear-cut, they're pouring a lot of resources into WebGPU and Safari.
astlouis44
This, they literally posted a TON of engineering WebGPU jobs just recently for their WebKit team.
pcwalton
For what it's worth, I do not believe that this is Apple's strategy. Squabbles with Khronos suffice to explain everything.
mensetmanusman
This is true, there is so much more that Safari could be capable of if it gave developers lower level hardware capabilities, but that would hurt the bottom line…
slimsag
I agree with you about Web Shading Language not needing to exist.

But I also don't think it's the end of the world, either. Google's Tint can translate between SPIR-V/GLSL/etc -> WGSL and vice-versa pretty well.

If that's what it takes for Apple to be on board with WebGPU and we get an extension later to load SPIR-V (or some other WGSL binary form) later for optimization I'm cool with that.

pcwalton
Yeah, the silver lining is that the amount of effort folks have gone to in order to ensure some level of interoperability has been amazing. Khronos developers working on SPIRV-Cross, wgpu-rs folks like kvark, MoltenVK people, Wine devs, etc. are unsung heroes of the graphics industry and deserve tons of support.
kvark
Even if SPIRV input becomes available as an extension at some point, don’t expect it to be any kind of optimization. Both Tint and Naga’s IRs are close to WGSL, so parsing it is really easy and fast. Processing SPIRV’s control flow graph, images/samplers, atomics, is quite painful in comparison.
slimsag
From kvark himself, big fan of your work :) Very interesting, thanks for saying this, I wouldn't have thought SPIRV->Target could be faster than or near the same speed as WGSL->Target.

I guess with compression probably being quite good, as well, there isn't much point of a SPIRV extension for download times or processing times?

pjmlp
You missed LibGNM and NVN.

DirectX and Metal are great with high level bindings, and much more productive shading languages, instead of "C way" that Khronos keeps pushing for.

roblabla
Khronos is pushing for SPIR-V, which isn't a language but a bytecode. There are a lot of good reasons to do this: It allows innovation for shading languages to take place as anyone can build their own language and compile it down to SPIR-V, and it's much easier to parse than, say, GLSL, making it easier the proprietary drivers aren't doing something stupid.

The DirectX shading language (HLSL) and the metal shading language (MSL) could both compile down to SPIR-V, other than the occasional missing feature that's not standardized yet.

amelius
> There's mostly not a reason why we couldn't have a single API other than politics.

If you follow Apple's logic, this is totally wrong. Everything has to be integrated in order to achieve the best possible experience, and public APIs would be a bottleneck that make things inflexible for the company that tries to exploit the technology.

hermitdev
I don't know, I feel like you could do a few name substitutions from this 16yr old comic [1] and it would perfectly fit this situation (of course Sony becomes Apple).

[1] https://cad-comic.com/comic/doing-business/

antifa
The difference is that Apple actually does achieve some minimal base line of quality while Sony just pretends it does.
RantyDave
> There's no compelling reason why Web Shading Language needs to exist.

I'm pretty sure it basically doesn't. WebGPU is supporting WGSL whose #1 goal is to be "trivially convertible to SPIR-V" (https://www.w3.org/TR/WGSL/#goals). In other words, it's text SPIR-V.

kvark
It’s only talking about one way: WGSL->SPIRV, not the reverse. It also has to be trivially convertible to MSL and HLSL. So WGSL is a separate language now, most ties to SPIRV are cut off.
sircastor
My theory about Metal is that Apple wanted to own the whole stack, and controlling the API meant they could plan ahead for their own silicon. Instead of being limited to the way a standards body planned around existing silicon and ISAs, Apple gets to explicitly determine their own future.
vimy
Metal isn’t just a graphics api but also becoming a CUDA alternative. It’s a very important api for Apple.
nextweek2
> It does have the excuse that it was being developed before Vulkan

This is not true, Mantle was first. AMD donated the code to khronos and it became/was developed in public. Half way through Apple announced it would do its own thing and beat Vulkan to v1.0.0.

Apple might have had a v1 before Vulkan but they're still dicks for not helping build a unified standard around AMDs generous once a generation offer.

oneplane
It will probably not happen as long as there is a commercial incentive to not do that. What you will get is a subset of features that can be common in a shared interface.

At this time a GPU manufacturer will conform to whatever workloads will run on the device, instead of creating a shared API and letting someone else choose how to use it.

Even if you just compare CUDA and OpenCL which makes use of the GPU in non-graphics workloads. In theory this was a chance to create a universal interface but in practise it turns out what you can make more money if your special sauce is better than the sauce of others, even if it's not better in all scenarios.

It seems the true agnostic interface will be on engine level where a compute library or graphics engine will be running on top of a bunch of non-agnostic interfaces and the real interface you'll be working with is the interface of the engine.

troymc
Pragmatically, many developers can just use the APIs provided by Unreal Engine, Unity, Godot, Qt, or whatever and let them figure out how to support various GPUs.
sebow
Vulkan is the best choice right now, but "money talks" when it comes to what framework developers "should" use.
tester756
Is there something like LLVM IR for GPUs?
pcwalton
Yes, that's SPIR-V. Unfortunately it's not universally supported, but Khronos maintains transpilers to HLSL and Metal Shading Language.
modeless
WebGPU is the easy cross platform graphics you're requesting. It's vendor agnostic and not limited to the web. You can use WebGPU from native code and you won't need your own shader transpilers or abstraction layers. You will (soon) just work on any platform.
ajvs
The web is not vendor-agnostic. It's mostly run by Google (Chromium-based browsers), with Firefox and Safari only owning a fraction of the marketshare.
modeless
WebGPU is not the web, and the standards committee does not make decisions according to market share. In any case the relevant vendors here are GPU vendors, not browser vendors. (Only one browser vendor happens to also be a GPU vendor.)
TheMode
It is not, but it is such a confusing name...
slimsag
In my view, WebGPU is the future of cross-platform graphics. I wrote about this and why we chose it for a game engine we're developing in Zig[0]

It's the one API that Mozilla, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and Intel can all agree on. Nvidia and AMD are silent, but it's on top of Metal/DirectX/Vulkan behind the scenes so they don't really need to care.

Today, Vulkan with MoltenVK (for Apple devices) has more _features_, but even that is not super clear-cut. For example, mesh shaders are supported on AMD cards in DirectX 12 but not Vulkan.

It's not just Apple who continues to push their own API, either. DirectX 13 is likely coming soon, and from what I understand Vulkan gets "ported" features after they land in DirectX.

If you want bleeding edge features, you're going to need to use the native API: Vulkan on Linux, DirectX on Windows, and Metal on Apple.

But if you just want the common denominator? WebGPU native isn't a bad choice IMO. And it being a cleaner API than Vulkan may mean you need less abstraction on top to work with it.

[0] https://devlog.hexops.com/2021/mach-engine-the-future-of-gra...

Jayschwa
> In my view, WebGPU is the future of cross-platform graphics.

How long before this API is ubiquitous though? For maximum compatibility today, wouldn't something like OpenGL ES / WebGL make the most sense?

slimsag
Google's native implementation of WebGPU, Dawn, has DirectX/Metal/Vulkan backends, as well as fallback to OpenGL when not available. So it's already ubiquitous today, you just can't use it in the browser (yet)
modeless
Yes, if you need a cross platform graphics API with maximum compatibility today, an OpenGL ES 2.0 context provided by ANGLE is what you should use (or ES 3.0 if dropping support for very old hardware is OK). Not only does ANGLE have very wide platform support, including platforms that don't natively support OpenGL ES, but it will behave the same everywhere, which is something even OpenGL has always struggled with when using platform/driver implementations instead of ANGLE (check out Chromium's list of driver bug workarounds: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/HEAD/gpu/co...). And ANGLE is used by all three major web browsers in their WebGL implementations so it is guaranteed to be maintained essentially forever.

Eventually WebGPU will get there too, but it will take time.

pjmlp
Sony and Nintendo don't care about WebGPU.
slimsag
Right. Nintendo cares about NVN[0], the lower level API for the Switch (not Vulkan, which they added much later as an option)

Sony cares about GNM and their custom shader language PSSL[1]. Seems unlikely they'll support Vulkan anytime soon either.

Arguably, it is more likely WebGPU will continue to have a reasonable translation to these platform's native APIs compared to Vulkan, given that WebGPU is the common denominator between Vulkan/Metal/DirectX.

That's not to speak of the market pressures having a large swath of browser-based games written with WebGPU would have in encouraging Nintendo/Sony to care about these.

[0] https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2016/10/20/nintendo-switch/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software#...

Jasper_
Yeah, they don't. They don't care about SDL or MonoGame either, but you can still ship a game using those libraries.

It's entirely possible that wgpu or Dawn could implement backends for those platforms.

pjmlp
Which is why most game studios don't care about API portability, everyone knows how to write an API agnostic backend.
fulafel
We have WebGL, so we have a near universally available cross platform interface now. It lags the current hardware a lot but seems to be the only actually working cross platform thing we'll have for a while.

If you look at WebGL implementations, the heroic amounts of driver bug workarounds found through trial and error over the years and feature compromises due to said bugs, it's hard to believe anything will match and replace it for a long time.

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astlouis44
WebGPU is the proper answer here, it’s truly the future of cross-platform graphics. As developers we will be able to ship powerful 3D/VR experiences that “just work” everywhere that browsers exist.

The key is getting the major game engines to support these standards which is what my startup is working on.

We’re currently focusing on bringing WebGPU + WebXR + improved WASM support so real-time 3D apps and games can be deployed to end users wherever they are, no walled gardens required. It’s also the path to the metaverse, which needs to be built on open standards and protocols in order to be truly accessible to all, and not vendor-locked by an entity that seeks to own it all like Meta (FB).

If you’re interested in hearing more or want to leverage our platform that’s approaching general availability we’re building at Wonder Interactive, you can join our Discord here:

https://discord.gg/3t8bj5R

glitchc
We don't want a standard.

One size fits all doesn't work for customized hardware, as OpenGL amply demonstrated, which is why it's going away. OpenGL started dying the day NVidia introduced the GeForce series with the T&L engine. That was followed by shaders, antialiasing, anisotropic filtering and now raytracing and DLSS, not to mention innovations on the compute side and GSync/Freesync implementations. Any kind of standard acts as a bottleneck for new hardware. It's too slow to adapt to new features because it requires review and ratification, and then of course, an abstraction layer is needed to support hardware missing those features. This adds complexity. Standardized APIs are a dead-end, just like standardized CPU ISAs are a dead-end. They are trying to solve the same problem in a wrong-headed fashion.

Apple's hardware is completely different from NVidia. It makes sense to have a completely different API to fully leverage the silicon.

dathinab
> as OpenGL amply demonstrated

Not really, OpenGL had/has many problems but having a standardized interface isn't one of them (I mean one problem is the inconsistency between which extensions are available and many extensions being (or at least starting of as) somewhat Vendor specific in practice...)

Sure for technological advancement we will have vendor specific code and you could say we want it.

BUT most applications do not need it. Even many games don't need it. Weather most applications and any non-"AAA"-style games they often want a easy way to have reasonable well working graphics which also continue to work. Sure with such a hypothetical API the "standardized" way will be updated with new features and APIs from time to time and maybe some old features will be deprecated and emulated instead of having native hardware support but due to improvements in hardware software written "back-then" would still work. WebGPU seems to go in the right direction but Apple is messing it up again, but then "works in the Web everywhere but Apple" is something I'm already getting used to.

> It's too slow to adapt to new features because it

Most software just wants a frequently updated stable core set of feature which get adapted after they had been available in non standardized APIs for a while.

> standardized CPU ISAs

Except that ALL ISAs today are standarized, sure with extensions but the part most people use is standardized with each ISA. Weather that's ARM, x86, RISC-V, etc. Standards are what compiler makers and operating system designers rely on when it comes to designing the "generic", "general purpose parts" of their software. I mean hardly anyone would be using e.g. RISC-V if there wouldn't be a standard about how the most "core" instructions are handled.

> It makes sense to have a completely different

For native state of the art highly customized applications, yes. For the rest. No. It's just pain and a lot of additional development cost, and companies hate cost.

miltondts
And yet, look at x86. Still going strong after 40 years. There is absolutely no reason we could not have a standard instruction set for GPUs. OpenGL is just the wrong abstraction. Same for Vulkan.
glitchc
The x86 ISA led to stagnation in the CPU space. Notice how an entirely new architecture (ARM) required a new ISA to fully leverage its capabilities. RISC-V is another example.

A good analogy for this is the language and mind relationship. The mind shapes the language just as much as the language shapes the mind.

fulafel
It's not really even x86, it's the defacto C processor & machine model, and sw ecosystem. ARM works with the same sw stack as x86 because of this.
pjmlp
OpenGL so far has hardly been a thing in game consoles anyway, and on Windows most vendors had crappy drivers versus their DirectX ones.

Also contrary to common beliefs, OpenGL is "portable" not portable, as the spaghetti code of vendor extensions, GPU driver workarounds, differences between GL and GL ES, shading language compilers, lead to multiple common paths hardly different from using multiple 3D APIs.

mkl95
Yes, and I believe we will have it this decade. The intention is there, so it's a matter of money and time, mostly time.
ksec
>We moved from almost write once run anywhere OpenGL

I dont know who is "We". But I dont see the industry "moved" from write once run anywhere to vendor-dependent at all because it never happened in the first place. I mean even OpenGL you have vendor specific extensions.

Partly because all these API designed happened at a time when GPU hardware was moving so fast and constantly changing.

I think in terms of basic functions WebGPU is the closest we are going to get.