Ask HN: Are there any 4K “dumb” televisions?
With news like [1][2], and problems I’ve had in the past, I would like a TV with a modern resolution, but just inputs and a tuner, no “smart” features. Does anything like this exist?
[1] https://hackaday.com/2021/11/29/samsung-bricks-smart-tvs/
[2] https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-advertising-inscape-data-privacy-q3-2021
517 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 294 ms ] threadhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28045189
Don't buy one with other networks either, if they exist...
I just bought a Samsung 4K TV a month ago. I didn't connect it to wi-fi or do any setup. I just plugged my computer in.
I have not seen any ads. It seems to work fine offline in all respects.
If it actually did this I would definitely return the TV.
In case it matters it was this Q60A "QLED" 43 inch 4K TV: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-43-class-q60a-series-ql...
Basically Samsung TVs at least used to grab any open Wifi to connect to if you don't provide them with credentials to your own. Also there is no way to fully disable the wifi.
The solution was to set the connection to manual configuration and set all addresses to 0.0.0.0.
Of course this is not an issue if the only network your TV can see is your own, more of a problem in apartments where there might be 20 wireless networks available at any time.
If enough people do this, I anticipate that in the next model, they'll replace that blinking light with an forced on-screen overlay.
You only get the blinking light if you take away access after having given it.
I have noticed a marked increase in youtube ads in the roku app. Prob due to roku has updated itself without permission.
Now i dread having to deal with pihole hacks + routers to fence it out of our home network :/
That's a cursed scenario...
. o O ( I wonder if some hostile antifeatures go away if you buy a TV in the US but then activate it from an EU IP address ).
Not exactly a user-friendly option, but an option nonetheless.
I can confirm that Roku firmware works great without the internet and doesn't nag. I just turn it on and switch to my Apple TV.
So pay attention to the hdmi cable you use.
There are some TVs that will try to connect to the internet via non-obvious means (Samsung TVs were mentioned elsewhere in this thread). TV manufacturers aren't spy agencies though. They're not going to put in that much effort to sneak an internet connection, when most users willingly connect their TVs to WiFi anyway. If I can't find an article about a given TV sneaking in an internet connection, I would be pretty confident that it doesn't.
The profit from collecting data on you and displaying ads on the TV is greater than the profit from the sale of the TV.
They absolutely will go to whatever lengths they can.
https://www.cnet.com/news/as-smart-tvs-become-the-only-optio...
https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-adver...
It's a real shame to have a TV that runs Linux and can't be used as an X Terminal...
Your best bet now is to get an industrial display or find a generic driver board that is compatible with the panel from a smart TV and then DIY a smart TV into a dumb one.
On the DIY perks youtube channel, the host builds a water cooled backlight for a 4k panel in order to make an outdoor-capable TV, and he uses one of those generic driver boards for it.
If you're looking for something smaller I'm using a 43 inch 4K monitor, LG 43UD79 / 43MU79, that was around $450. I'm using it as a monitor, but my backup plan was to use it as a TV if I didn't like it as a monitor. It even comes with a simple remote that is better than common TV remotes because it leaves out all the superfluous buttons (its primary up/downs are volume/brightness). They've since discontinued it and the new model is up at $700 though.
Also note they may have an HDMI implementation that is 'cheap' and doesn't implement the CLEC protocols or HDCP so you may have to jump through hoops to drive them from a PC with commercial content.
The question then is why would any company pay 5x for a device without smart functionality? Does that mean there's now a market for buying smart TVs, stripping out the "smart" tech, and reselling at, say, a 4x markup?
That said, I think there is solid market for "monitors" which are just the display and an industry standard interface.
Sometimes you can get a "tunerless" TV which has fewer smarts.
If you want actual OTA TV on your dumb TV https://www.amazon.com/ViewTV-ATSC-Digital-Converter-Clear/d...
If you have many sources consider https://www.amazon.com/Output-Switch-Switcher-Support-Contro... or getting a receiver instead of all the above (more costly).
If you want to make your own smart TV look at the Shield TV with a USB TV Tuner, the extractor is probably still best for the sound bar in that case.
That extractor will passthrough whatever the output is and break out the audio to SPDIF for your soundbar.
Overall it's on the more powerful side and has full hardware acceleration so weird latency issues but you'll want to match the audio offset in the Android TV settings to whatever the display latency of your monitor of choice is to get the audio/video timing to perfectly match (supports both positive and negative offsets in case your soundbar has its own latency problems).
Some will laugh at getting 4K resolution and then projecting it on a regular white wall, but honestly, you'll get used to it as you project a much larger image than you'd otherwise get with an lcd. Also, there are special paints you can get - or a retractable screen if you feel the need after testing out the projector.
Note: if it is a room with windows make sure to have decent curtains. It's not as FC v bright as a LCD screen.
Ah, here it is: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/the-best-feature-of-...
> The new Google TV is a fine smart TV interface, but when it gets integrated into some TV sets later this year, its best feature might be that you can turn it off. A report from 9to5Google details an upcoming "Basic TV" mode that will be built into Google TV, which turns off just about all the smart TV features. Right now, Google TV is only available in the new Chromecast, but Google TV will be built into upcoming TVs from Sony and TCL. Basic mode means we'll get smart TVs with a "dumb TV" mode.
> ...
> When the new feature rolls out, you'll be asked to choose between "Basic TV" or "Google TV" at setup. 9to5Google says that with basic mode, "almost everything is stripped, leaving users with just HDMI inputs and Live TV if they have an antenna plugged directly into the TV. Casting support, too, is dropped." The UI notes that you'll be turning off all apps, the Google Assistant, and personalized recommendations.
Also, Amazon and other companies are building out networks of their wifi devices. I assume at some point they will start selling access to other companies. So, even if you decline to set up wifi, the appliance might be able to get online through your neighbor's doorbell.
Doing that to get around a feature they put in themselves just seems like conspiracy theorizing at that point.
I was looking for something similar and it's frustrating to see you can pick up a 65inch Samsung Q90A for about $2500-$3000 but a similarly sized comercial display will cost significantly more and use significantly more power (at least as far as I've seen, I might be wrong on this one). Comercial displays are rated for 16/24 or 24/24 usage, so they should, in theory, last significantly longer.
As far as my search went, I ended up going with a Dell U4320Q (43inch monitor) instead. It cost a bit more than the equivalent Samsung Q90A display, but it does have a USB C port with power delivery support, I can keep my desktop and laptop plugged in and it works/looks great. It also doesn't have Smart features, it's just a display. Depending on country you might be able to get some cashback on it and make it even more competitive price wise and the stand + warranty are pretty solid.
Hope this helps!
For example, there's the Alienware 55" OLED Gaming Monitor and the ASUS ROG Swift PG65UQ that's 65".
The smart one's are subsidized by their ads and spyware; so you'll always pay a massive premium to get a dumb one.
Same reason nVidia's AI cards are so expensive even though they're very similar to their graphics cards. Or "audiophile" speaker cables are expensive even though they're identical to cheap ones.
Product prices are partly a function of the price people are willing to pay (demand).
Your 5 year old is now magically holding BrandNewKoolAid™ instead of the original Coke. You grandpa has a fishing rod from BobsFishingEquipment®.
But what happens when the platforms get into it themselves?
Today using a loved one's image in a deepfake advertisement might seem invasive and wrong. But I wonder in the future if this would be seen as something acceptable. I'm sure somewhere there's a social media site that is carefully constructing their T&C's to allow them to do this if they so wish.
For some tiny group that's below-board anyway with hacking people's social media accounts, I guess maybe there's not much you could do. But for any social media site or other platform, I imagine that IP lawyers trying to protect their client's likeness would descend in packs, which is a probably a genuine deterrent to a group considering implementing something like this.
[1] https://pi-hole.net/
But seriously, what can we do here? How to I inform people like my parents of this kind of thing without being an alarmist? Should I even care?
4K OLED https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=7
4K IPS https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=2
4K VA https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=4
4K 55" or bigger monitors (there aren't many choices) https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#P=2,7,4&r=3840021...
The 4K 55" OLED Alienware has speaker but I doubt that it is any good https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/new-alienware-55-oled-gaming... (actually comes with remote too)
Linus made a video of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3oqktdx2a8
Last but not least you can go even higher resolution than 4K but these are all IPS only and they are not bigger than 34" https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=768004320,57600...
It looks like the situation is still that in the 4k OLED space there are a few ~$4000+ monitors and dozens of ~$1000 TVs. Per the pcpartpicker link, maybe the Gigabyte FO48U will change that, but it's still out of stock. Besides, I feel like this has happened before with HDR and 4k and IPS. First it shows up in TVs, a year later it is cheap in TVs, a year later it is expensive in monitors, and finally it becomes cheap in monitors. But it takes years. Which seems odd, since surely they use the same panels? Is it an industry structure thing, where panel manufacturers integrate and co-develop with TV manufacturers but monitor manufacturers are separate, only get the panels after release, and need a year or three to turn things around?
because there's more money to be made selling TVs than monitors?
consequentely, it's TV manufacturers pushing the entire display maker industry ahead? and so they get the newer tech first??
What does this even mean? The same companies that make panels for monitors usually make panels for the TVs as well. They already have production facilities that can manufacture panel sizes ranging from cell-phone size to 200" commercial wall panels.
https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/11/10/22773073/vi...
Yeah, I thought $3000 sounded silly, and my only mistake was that I thought it was one order of magnitude silly when in fact it was two orders of magnitude silly.
That number is specifically for their SmartCast subscriber service. It's not clear what the rate is, but they subsequently talk about Roku making $40/mo; so it's possible that's the monthly rate. Assuming it is monthly, a television lasts for five years, and that is their only other source of revenue from the televisions, that's ~$1200.
The telling part of the article:
> ...[Vizio's] Platform Plus segment that includes advertising and viewer data had a gross profit of $57.3 million. That’s more than twice the amount of profit it made selling devices like TVs, which was $25.6 million, despite those device sales pulling in considerably more revenue.
Are sports channels really expensive? Is that what I'm missing?
"Vizio execs said 77 percent of that money comes directly from advertising, like the kind that runs on its WatchFree Plus package of streaming channels, a group that recently expanded with content targeting. The next biggest contributor is the money it makes selling Inscape data about what people are watching."
sigh.
That and expected maximum market size (or, more precisely, expected shape of the demand curve) do, I thimk, explain the delay, and higher price even before considering subsidy from advertising/data revenue, because there are fewer units to amortize fixed per-design production line costs across.
4K OLED laptops are more available and at a much smaller premium, perhaps because people buy a lot more laptops than desktop and larger monitors.
Speaking of booting into Windows, I finally figured out how to make it painless: use a separate hard drive, not a separate partition. I wish I could go back in time 20 years and tell myself that. The number of hours I wasted debugging poorly written installers, bootloaders, and updaters exceeds the cost of hard drives by a factor too terrifying to calculate. Ah well. Now I know.
Even if I were not taking these steps and generally abusing the monitor, I wouldn't expect to see burn-in yet, so I can't really speak to how the situation will develop.
I will eventually go to OLED but 48" is the smallest size OLED TV available, and that's a bit bigger than I'd want on my desk.
Hopefully a reasonably-priced 43" OLED will come out.
A “dumb tv” would just be a monitor with a remote to control power and volume.
Just because OLED tech "exists" doesn't mean the equipment exists to make it economically at any particular size, format, etc. We have affordable TV-sized and phone-sized OLEDs because LG has invested in the equipment to make those particular panels in those particular sizes.
Speaking of low to mid end tvs, the ones I saw on display in local shops, they were just overpriced junk..
Even though it's smaller, I installed my 7? year old 24" benq fhd e-ips monitor as a tv for my parents. $120 + $20 for the cheapest 2.1 sound (I think 2x10W + sub), cranked the bass much higher than advised, put the speakers behind the monitor and the sub on the floor + ISP tv box with remote. Speakers and monitor are always on, they got their own power saving stuff. My parents are ecstatic, guests are asking where they got the TV from... apparently it looks better that the ones you could buy for $500+...
Last time I checked, I remember finding somewhere most tvs don't actually operate at the advertised resolution, they got all kinds of "prettifying" algos. Not going to trust them ever.
Game mode. This turns off most/all the image processing, which greatly increases the lag.
Overscan. Also turn it off. This zooms in the picture a little to crop out artifacts around the edge.
Monitor used to have "much" lower input latency, higher PPI, much higher refresh rate and generally higher reliability because they are expected to be constantly on. i.e Their panels have different specifications.
Although I am not sure if most of the above are true anymore especially with OLED. Given how TV manufactures have also had focus on gaming. But reliability is still a thing on monitor. That is the similar to reference TV that uses panel from one of two years prior.
Edit: I had to look up Panasonic TV set and panel and then I discovered they are pulling out of TV production and outsource to external partner. Sigh.
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=...
My dedicated monitors have had dismal reliability: one died right after the warranty, one died inside the warranty and they flaked on the warranty anyway. My reliability expectations are rock bottom, my TV will have to work hard to undershoot them.
Well, “always” seems like an exaggeration; consumer monitors were far beyond 480i before consumer TVs were.
> It looks like the situation is still that in the 4k OLED space there are a few ~$4000+ monitors and dozens of ~$1000 TVs.
That’s not monitors being behind in tech, that’s TVs being cheaper because of economies of scale and opportunity for ad serving and data harvesting.
> Is it an industry structure thing, where panel manufacturers integrate and co-develop with TV manufacturers but monitor manufacturers are separate
AFAIK, LG, Sharp, Samung, and Sony are all four panel/TV/monitor manufacturers; I dont think that’s an issue.
Monitors and TVs are manufactured with the same "tech", just to different specifications to fit their desired purpose/niche, and to capture the maximum possible value from that market.
You could maybe make an argument that Samsung panel tech is behind LG's or something, since companies have separate R&D labs and actually have different technology, but in order to do so you'd have to be an industry expert.
> the same "tech", just to different specifications to fit their desired purpose/niche
Clearly not. I am using a TV as a monitor right now, because 4k + OLED + HDR + 120hz was just not available for $1100 in the monitor space six months ago (I think there was a $6000 offering, lol). Looks like it still isn't. This situation has been going on for years. Before OLED it was HDR, before HDR it was 4k, and so on. TVs are always far ahead, monitors are always far behind.
I'd rather not use a TV as a monitor because it's a PITA. I have to put up with substantial non-panel-related silliness to make this happen (turn the TV off/on with a remote, deactivate the laggy filters, tolerate the "smart" BS, etc). If monitors are so well tailored to their own niche, why are they losing so badly to a competitor who isn't even trying?
> to capture the maximum possible value from that market
That's the only explanation I can come up with: monitors are a backwater that the industry just doesn't care much about because volume is lower. Tech has to trickle down, and that takes years.
Your own description isn't of TVs being ahead in tech, but offering the same tech at a lower price point. (There often is some actual tech lag, for many of the same reasons, but it's much shorter.)
> I'd rather not use a TV as a monitor because it's a PITA. I have to put up with substantial non-panel-related silliness to make this happen (turn the TV off/on with a remote, deactivate the laggy filters, tolerate the "smart" BS, etc).
Usually, all of those except for the filters are effectively bypassed when using an input that supports CEC.
I specified consumer TVs. You didn't read what I wrote, and then you decided to nitpick anyway.
> Usually, all of those except for the filters are effectively bypassed when using an input that supports CEC.
Yeah, I heard about that, but evidently it needs more work before it Just Works.
And like the other person said, one of the reason is just basic scale. TV is multitude much bigger market than monitor ever is.
EDIT: Actually, I did specify that I was talking about consumer TVs. You didn't read my post, and then you decided to nitpick anyway. Bravo.
On the other end of the spectrum is professional industry displays which are ahead of consumer facing devices, like are shown at NAB (vs CES) and there you'll find 8k monitors for tens of thousands of dollars.
Most business uses for monitors don’t require high definition, so you’re really looking at specific industries and gaming.
Meanwhile, no one is buying non-smart TVs, so lower quantities are more expensive.
(Or they know that non-smart TVs are a niche product that they can charge more for.)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1533261-REG/nec_led_f...
Powered bookshelf speakers are also an alternative to soundbars.
I personally use a monitor as a TV. One con is that some devices like the Fire Stick don't send HDMI display off signals but instead a black screen in sleep mode which wakes the monitor and keeps it on. You need a smart switch to easily turn it off.
It's definitely overkill given that I'm only driving stereo speakers anyway, so maybe next time I have issues I'll go this direction.
I don't want a 72-inch wall monster. I'm going to be viewing it from about a meter from my face.
But that's just my face. Other faces might work better.
In OP's link for IPS, a monitor of the same size and brand that seems to be the next version after the one I got is $550. It's hardly a premium over a comparable TV.
That's just offloading the problem to a separate device.
Our smart TV seems to actively try to figure out what is attached to the HDMI. Its probably reporting that back. At least every time I plug my notebook into the tv it seems to wait at least 20 seconds before forcing me to select "PC" as the input device. The old tv the notebook shows up instantaneously.
Anecdotally this is the approach I took ~20 years ago when buying a (then slightly exotic) plasma flatscreen from Panasonic. It is still working flawlessly today, though I keep hoping it will die so I can guiltlessly replace it with something newer/bigger/higher-resolution.
[1] A random example https://www.usa.philips.com/p-p/86BDL3050Q_00/signage-soluti...
It's It's bit ugly, but as long as you are okay with that.
This is one of the ones with an android board in it, and if I did it again, I’d be getting someone sold as a computer monitor.
If your company red is too washed out, or one section of a video-wall menu board is inconsistent brightness, it looks bad on your brand.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Flat-Panel-Displays/ci/16...
I have a big 4k tv that was destined for a sports bar but it was slightly damaged, got it for a great price. Sadly it doesn't have HDR either, but it is an older model. Anyway, its great as in there's no WiFi. There is a network port but there's no streaming apps or anything installed on it. I use it paired with an nvidia shield and a nakamichi soundbar and have been enjoying the experience.
But I digress, look for business displays
Planar makes incredible and also expensive displays for the commercial market. They offer a "luxury living" solution but the smallest is 100".
https://www.planar.com/markets/luxury-living/
I suppose newer systems would use the LAN to update drivers and take over smart functions. If in the US, go by Best Buy and ask them for the remote for the display tv you like and see that it lets you kill internet function. Also that there aren't any always-on apps (or if there are, the menus let you disable them).
There's no reason to own a television with a shitty computer built-in, when I can just buy a screen and plug it into my actually good computer.
Right now I have a 27" ThinkVision display and a pair of studio monitors, with both laptop and Switch connected to it. Media comes over the computer (who even buys cable in 2021 anyway?), audio patches into the display over USB-C/HDMI and out to the speakers.
I'm moving soon and I'll probably spring for a 30+" 4K for the living room at some point, and look into a receiver and theatre speakers but honestly I don't see the point.
You do pay a bit more for the display-per-inch, but the reason those "4K smart TVs" are so cheap is all the adware money, so they're only "cheap" in the way that Facebook is "free".
A smart tv with no internet connection that only uses its HDMI ports is a dumb tv, isn't it?
Unfortunately, many manufacturers are now forcing you to stay connected to WiFi to use the TV. “TV phone home!”