I sometimes feel like a crazy person in today's news. A city notorious for decriminalizing... everything, is now crying that crime is too high. What exactly is the news break here?
I feel like there should be a way more reasonable middle ground on where to live between 'people are suffering let them steal from you and do whatever they want outside of murder' and 'no gay marriages, no abortion, no welfare', which seem about what we're stuck with anymore.
Does a city exist that is progressive in nature but tough on crime?
I was thinking of cities in Europe and Asia although I could try to name some cities in the US but the definition of low in that context would be by US standard (sadly). Austin is equal to Kansas in crime rate. The latter is conservative-leaning and former is liberal-leaning.
Lack of social cohesion, the cause of which could be attributed to a lot of things. Though I will say I live in Seattle and I never drive around downtown or really any area and think it's dirty. But maybe I'm just used to living in cities? Denver seems clean to me too.
Foreign cities that are clean and nice tend to be both very homogenous and high median intelligence. In the absence of homogeneity there will always be defectors who are willing to externalize costs like litter disposal. In an excessively downshifted intelligence distribution there will be insufficient productivity and developmental capacity for a high standard of living. There are few/no large cities in the US which meet these criteria.
When you want a “densely populated city”, what exactly do you mean by that, in the year 2022? I assume you mean high-density…there are plenty of clean medium-density cities/suburbs in the US.
The US is a big, beautiful, lately-developed, scenically/climatically diverse land that hasn’t had the need to go high-density. Nobody is pushing to build another Manhattan…if the US people had wanted it, the US would have built several Manhattans over the last few decades. Most “normal” (?) US people seem to like their little plot of land and their own detached house, especially as they build families and grow older. The US has always had that luxury/basic human right and the resources to build such houses and that has led to lower population densities even in cities. Most people like a little elbow room (cue the “sprawl is the Devil’s underpants” crowd).
In the early-mid 20th Century, “high-density” meant access to major cultural venues and performances, top performances in sports, first crack at new technologies, broader access to economic opportunities, ease of finding your unique subculture that you could fit into, etc.. and you paid for it in cost-of-living and congestion (time/hassle tax).
Unless you have a major fixation on live performances on a regular basis, most of those positive arguments have weakened in the face of the advances in IT. Not totally gone away, but an occasional visit to a “densely populated” area will check off most of those boxes. The button that says “I <heart> NY, from a comfortable distance” comes to mind.
If a particular densely populated area is your querencia, then of course you have a strong reason/commitment to stay and improve it. Clean it up, it’s your town. Welcome to the slog. You can’t just buy or choose it, you have to build it.
If it isn’t your querencia, then the benefits from trying yet another “densely populated” area seem to have weakened over time and perhaps you should broaden your outlook on things. Do you really want 10000/sq mi, or will 2000/sq mi suffice (or even 500/sq mi) with the occasional trip to any one of several densely populated cities? You’ll see more of the US/world that way, and maybe even save money. You’ll certainly save on the congestion/hassle tax on a day-to-day basis. Get to plant a real garden. Smile at your neighbor who isn’t just the jerk who lives above you.
What are the positive values that you associate with “densely populated”? They differ by individual. Is it size? There are people who like their City to be so big that they couldn’t possibly grok all of it in their lifetime. There is always something new. Some prefer a City they can just fit into their head, like a comfortable overstuffed chair. Some want a small village, to free the rest of their mind for the rest of the human experience. Enquiring minds want to know…
Singapore? You’ll need a system of low wage foreign workers to clean up after your citizens and a complete readjustment to living in small apartment high rises.
I advise careful consideration about what it says that these things tend to be correlated. Social technologies that have existed for a very long time tend to have strong second-order effects in seemingly unrelated domains; those social technologies survive because their users are better adapted.
This seems like a strained framing. News that a politician is OK with high crime is bewildering. News that they want to curb high crime is not bewildering, regardless of whether their existing policies contributed to the crime rate. And either policy seems like a pretty standard thing to report on, no? Lastly, announcing a stance against something is not "crying" about it.
I think you really just wanted to make the case that the city's policies spurred crime, which is fine, but you should then do that directly instead of making kind of nonsensical snarky quips.
> I think you really just wanted to make the case that the city's policies spurred crime, which is fine, but you should then do that directly instead of making kind of nonsensical snarky quips.
You are correct in my case. My entire comment was three sentences. It was perhaps just a hair snarky, admittedly, but I don't think it was full of quips or nonsensical.
Decriminalization should reduce crime by definition I think as fewer things are classified as crimes.
edit: my bad - "Decriminalization or decriminalisation is the lessening or termination of criminal penalties in relation to certain acts" so these things can still be classified as crimes
They haven’t actually been decriminalized. Some crimes have been classified as lesser crimes (through Prop 47, for example) and many crimes the DA has simply refused to prosecute. And the police know that making arrests is often pointless if DA won’t uphold the law on his end.
There’s value to decriminalizing many things and some things should have zero tolerance. Decriminalize more things, clamp down hard on junkies looting things.
I wouldn't say "close"; Breed is less than two years into her four-year term. The next mayoral elections aren't for another two years, at the end of 2023.
But I suppose it's possible that she believes she needs to start "doing something" about the crime problem even now (rather than waiting another year), or it could affect her chances at reelection.
> This is how politicians create problems and then fix them in order to stay relevant and pretend they’re doing actual work.
Or a politician is simply reacting with the changing viewpoints of their constituents in regards to a failed policy. You know, how well-adjusted members of society behave when faced with changing circumstances.
I simply cannot tolerate this “us vs them” mentality in American politics.
It is a very disingenuous turnaround, as the current mayor and city council members are part of the problem. Lets see if they actually make it happened. Word on the street is that this came from Pelosi, as they saw poll numbers and San Francisco is making the whole Democratic party look awful. There was a turnaround even from the Pilly ultra progressive DA as well, who just two weeks ago was denying that there was a crime problem, meanwhile murders reached all time high. So this turnaround is a coordinated thing, which means it is coming from the DNC.
The 'progressives' and their insane left wing policies, are causing a major regress of quality of life of everyone in the city, and the rest of the country is paying attention. This is the rest of the political establishment trying to save their skin, and jumping from the sinking ship and trying to reverse course.
Also, both CA (LA and SA), and Seattle and Chicago are what happens when a region becomes a one party state. There is no more competition and the establishment gets entrenched to the point that it hard to dislodge, and they can enact all kind of crazy policies, that don't benefit their constituents.
The same thing, but opposite ideology (right wing), is in Hungary, Poland, and Turkey. (Orban and Erdogan are the opposite side of the same coin. Super entrenched majority, that is hard to kick out, and steer the place into regress, corruption or mismanagement).
Moral of the story: Don't vote blindly for one party. If the current elected leaders are not making your life better, vote them out.
Well said. Even blind freddy can see this about-face is about trying to keep themselves and their political apparatus in power and not because they ever cared about the residents quality of life. The sad part is that their constituents will believe the new lies and keep voting for them.
How are the 'progressives' causing anything when they've not gotten a single thing they've wanted, ever? What's going on now is a directly traceable result of the 'mainstream' politicians in both parties doing what they've been doing for decades. These problems are a direct result of the progressives not getting what they're fighting for.
For worse (certainly not better), we have 2 parties. One is far, far worse for the general population than the other. Yes, if the current elected leaders are not making your life better, vote them out, but that doesn't mean blindly for the other party. Vote for better democrats, progressive and (actual) working class representatives that aren't brought to you by Amazon. It's the only party that gives people like that a chance. No matter how small that chance might be, it's infinitely better than 0.
Current SF DA is an ultra progressive that doesn't want to jail criminals, and thinks stealing is redistribution.
Also, the proposition 47 passed in CA that makes stealing a midemenor, . Both very 'progressive' ticket items. Also, police got less funding as well.
How are they working out for SF?
How are the open drug markets working for SF? Currently there are 570 people dying over overdose, every year. More than twice than covid, which we all admitted it was a national emergency.
Time to admit, 'progressive' policies are failures. They are just a left wing form of anarchy, and normal folks are getting fed up with them.
You are cherry picking local initiatives that some progressives have won that have basis on European ways of handling these sort of issues but have been hijacked or undermined by others who want them to fail.
> Also, the proposition 47 passed in CA that makes stealing a midemenor
With the whole hijacking of BLM the police have become very cavalier towards even attempting to do their jobs. What started as a request to not shoot unarmed black people has morphed into police protesting by not enforcing their duties and using their unions as cover. This is to help encourage the failure of these proposals and revert to an exreme right wing policy.
In places like Oregon they don't even follow the will of the people (eg. ballot initiative to decriminalize all drugs just gets ignored by the mayor/police). The purpose of this law is to follow the Dutch model where people are given the drugs in a controlled environment and offered treatment options to wean them off. At least thats the end goal. But like everywhere else in this country where these bills get passed, they will be sabotaged by people at all layers that want to keep the crappy status quo(ie. a permanent racial underclass that serves the upper classes\corporate interests)
You are also ignoring all the big ticket items that they never get. Did you see how Bernie Sanders was totally curb-stomped by the DNC and afterwards they went back to sleep? Where is universal healthcare? tuition free college? federal jobs program? Green new deal Infrastructure/Jobs/R&D investment? Almost nothing progressive gets passed and when it does it gets sabotaged immediately.
Entering the European prison system is not a life ending experience like it is here in the US. Once you get out of prison, you have a record and because of that you are ineligible for many jobs. That leads to a cycle that lands you back in prison. Like they say, once you are in the system it is extremely hard to get out.
These laws that are causing all this chaos are a desperate attempt to break this cycle but clearly poorly implemented. But the fundamental truth is that we cannot achieve the European method without overhauling the whole system. That takes either a very brave politician at the top or people elected in the various multiple layers that form the current apparatus. I don't see progressives capable of doing this. It is near impossible to get just one person elected so overhauling the prison system? Forget about it.
Are you delusional or trolling? Progressives in California have gotten almost everything they want. Prop 47, ultraliberal DAs, rampant "environmental protection" (fuel for NIMBY lawsuits), and massive state funding for homeless shelters. None of them have worked out for the betterment of society.
I'd argue the Democratic Party in California is mostly Neo-liberals (shit-libs really) and not actual progressives (yes, no true Scotsman fallacy). That's why they focus on woke issues and not actually raising minimum wage, universal healthcare, free college, subsidized childcare, guaranteed paternity/maternity leave. The democrats who control California are like Pelosi--using their positions to enrich themselves but actually only giving out breadcrumbs to everyone else. Bernie is the only real progressive I'm aware of, everyone else is some woke, virtue signaling Neo-liberal that is actually not that different from Hillary or the third-way democrats.
Fair point. I meant raising the minimum wage enough to be an actual living wage. The democrats do their part to make sure minimum wage is still a poverty wage.
The larger point I was trying to make is that they push symbolic or insignificant policy changes that don't actually do anything to improve the lives of most. There's a reason the working class keeps shifting away from democrats and to republicans. Someone living paycheck to paycheck doesn't have time to worry about "decolonizing" our education system. Democrat politicians like are their own greatest enemy. They can keep winning in democratic strongholds, but they've let republicans take over state and local politics in most states.
Mistaken, I was thinking of federal government, not CA, which this topic is clearly about. I don't know anything about what's going on in CA. I probably shouldn't drunk comment.
This is a very disingenuous comment coming from what appears to be a right wing point of view. I like how you left out all the right wing states that are also one party rule or even how many partake in gerrymandering to cheat the results.
The Democratic party and its media arm made record levels of fundraising/profit money when Trump was in office and they were the #resistance. They are motivated by staying in power yes, but they benefit greatly from the other guys being in office as well. Its a stretch to say this is a coordinated move. While the DNC does coordinate, I suspect its more to do with complaints from corporate donors and not for any re-election efforts.
The only ones sounding the alarm over Virginia and NJ are the far left progressives but its clear the DNC does not care. Just look at Biden's actions. He has many levers he could pull right this minute to fire up the base (executive orders such as legalizing marajuanna, pardon all nonviolent drug offenders, forgive student debt, etc.) but he chooses not to. Their strategy is to blame progressives when they lose in 2022 and 2024 in an effort to further delegitimize them.
The existing policies have failed, thats why we are even entertaining discussion of new policies that you don't like. There are only two directions from here. A more progressive approach as implemented in Europe or authoritarian far-right policies.
Probably part of it, but also the rich can't do their xmas shopping in Union Square safely this year, and if those stores close, not next year either. Everybody I've talked to in SF says they won't go there, even in daylight.
Note that Pelosi gave a statement about crime this week, but denied knowing the reasons behind it, since Marxists won't take accountability when their narrative is proven wrong. Just won't do it.
"Pelosi Weighs In on Crime Debate: ‘I Don’t Know’ Why Crime Is Increasing"
> She said she recognized that San Francisco was a compassionate city, but “we’re not a city where anything goes.”
I think that is reasonable. From these comments, I get a very "dammed if you do, damned if you don't" sentiment. Should she not try to improve things, just because they tried something and it went too far in the other direction?
This type of article is clickbait flamebait for a certain strata of right-wing HN types. They love to come bash SF any time these political articles (which have nothing to do with tech) pop up. I read them to just see if they have any new opinions that I should learn about, and as always: no, same old same old.
She won’t stick with it. She just saw a poll and is switching her tune. She was downplaying the same stories previously. She’s self-motivated to save her own position. Every time there was a violent crime in BART that made the news, they’d have cops for 2-3 days in the stations then go back to ignoring things once the spotlight was off. I suspect the same will happen here. They cleaned the city up for the Super Bowl so clearly it can be done.
They didn't "clean up the city" for the Super Bowl. They just took all of the bad stuff going on near where the SB festivities were, and (temporarily, as it turned out) moved it elsewhere.
HNers are falling over themselves to make sardonic comments accusing politicians of only changing their minds because there's an election coming up.
Couldn't possibly be that:
* homelessness is a really complex problem, with lots of varied causes, not to mention a lot of barriers to anyone who is homeless reintegrating into society (for example, thanks to paranoia over terrorism, it can now be very difficult for someone who is or was homeless to get ID, get a bank account, etc. Homeless people don't have their birth certificates handy, don't typically have an address they get mail at, they don't receive bills, etc.)
* policies and programs take time to get going; there are lessons learned in planning, implementation, etc.
* change does not happen overnight; think of a city program to address homelessness like a container you're using to bail out a canoe that's full of water.
* it takes time to collect data, and more time to figure out what the data means
* it takes time to figure out what to do about that data
I have lived in a number of very large cities around the world. And they were all clean, safe, and well-maintained. SF is a basket case of mismanagement.
Isn’t this entirely the fault of the extremist politicians and the voters who put them in place? Mayor Breed has been in her position for a few years. Why speak up now, when all of this has been building up for years, and was so obvious and predictable? I know it is tough to risk reputation when the other side is framing everything in terms of race, justice, and other “risky” terms, but I feel the incumbent politicians (and extremist DA Chesa Boudin) should not get credit for reversing course now.
Unfortunately the damage has been done. Restorative justice born in SF is now a widespread practice, particularly along the west coast. In many of these cities we see the same policies of treating crimes as non crimes, removing consequences, releasing criminals early, and other such practices that ultimately risk public safety. I bet other cities will see the same effects as well.
Breed isn't extremist. In San Francisco politics, she's a tad right of center. Indeed, the Board of Supervisors "progressive" caucus replaced her as acting mayor in early 2018 with Mark Farrell in a failed effort to torpedo her campaign for the coming mayoral election.
Here's the very left supervisor Hillary Ronan describing Breed in 2018: "The same rich white men that steered the policies that have created the mess we are in today are the same people who are firmly behind the candidacy of London Breed." (https://beyondchron.org/sfs-twisted-racial-politics/)
Now, the progressive left is an extremely powerful force in the city, though not quite a majority. No mayor, whatever their political views, could get anything done without understanding how to placate that group. That's how politics works--you have to compromise to get anything done. Unfortunately, like Republicans nationally, local progressives have learned how to abuse that dynamic by using obstructionism and extreme rhetoric to pull the center of debate in their preferred direction. And that's how the city ends up with some of its more extreme policies and general paralysis.
How is Nancy Pelosi still in office if the city is so progressive? I was part of the Shahid Bhuttar campaign and was very disappointed that they chose to re-elect Pelosi after all the messes of the Trump years. I think the city is really controlled by the rich neoliberals and progressives are nothing but lip service. There is no other reason they would keep such a garbage candidate around.
Replacing incumbents is hard. Replacing ones with wide recognition is even harder (she's the speaker of the house).
Replacing them with people with zero history in politics is going to be nearly impossible. Wikipedia doesn't even consider Buttar notable enough to have his own article, and he still managed to get a quarter of the vote in the last election, which should be seen a real accomplishment.
It gives an indication that the electorate (of which there should be ~700k people) does not care enough to even consider a different option or even bother to come out and vote.
It looks like your account is using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. Can you please not do that? It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.
I need to vent out. I am an immigrant to USA at young age and now naturalized citizen. Ever since I got citizenship, I've for voted for Democrats because they represent my values. But today's left-wing is unbearable for me. We've thrown away meritocracy, liberty and rule of law. Instead, we have rampant racism (against Whites), authoritarian undertones at policy level, and straight up anarchy in many municipalities. It's constant barrage of identity politics to divide people into groups, its a constant government corruption and a constant attack on the spirit of of this nation that attracted my parents to move here. These people want to rewrite history in darkest possible terms.
People in my country of origin are shocked at what's going on in American left, they are already aware of the right. It's all fucked up.
As a white person I just don't see this whole "racism against whites" angle. White people (myself included) have benefited from minority oppression for centuries, and it's far past the time that we stop just silently accepting that that's ok.
I also think you perhaps don't know what "anarchy" is, if you think we have that in left-leaning cities.
Regardless, at the risk of devolving into whataboutism, the right has all of these same problems you describe, just orders of magnitude worse. Identity politics, racism (against minorities), corruption, authoritarianism (forget "undertones", as you say... it's blatant and out in the open). And kinda hard to say the GOP isn't attacking the "spirit of the nation"; I expect if the GOP had its way, your parents would never have been allowed to immigrate to the US in the first place.
Bottom line is that we have two party choices, and neither of them are great. At least most leftist policy positions are well-meaning, even if unintended consequences rear their ugly heads. When GOP policies result in negative outcomes, more often than not it's because that's what they intended. My feeling is that a lot of the bad stuff going on in leftist circles is due to overcorrection, not an active desire to do evil. Overcorrection tends to (heh) correct itself, as the pendulum starts to swing back.
Anyway, I probably shouldn't dive into politics here. Tempted to just hit the back button without posting this, but it disappoints me to see someone come down so hard on leftist policies when the right-wing equivalents are so much worse, and enacted in bad faith to boot.
> White people (myself included) have benefited from minority oppression for centuries
I can't get past this. Just because some shit happened ages ago, you can't penalize current generation. I feel so digusted by this idea, it is extremely repulsive. There is no limit, no objectivity, you can go far back as centuries to feel guilt. Instead of looking forward, it is looking backwards.
America is one of those nations where once you're 18, you're on your own. Go win the world, it's your oyster. That's what my parents think. I am successful here as a person of color, not because of my skin but due to meritocracy.
You can twist this as much you want, but it changes the entire idea of 'fairness' in a generation of people. Instead of treating people equally, you're advocating more racism.
> I also think you perhaps don't know what "anarchy" is, if you think we have that in left-leaning cities.
I spent a fair amount of time at CHOP. I think folks are blowing things out of proportion freaking out about it. If that's what anarachy is like, it's honestly not that bad.
There were 4 shootings in a span of 10 days at CHOP (the entire thing lasted 23 days and covered 6 blocks). A 16 year old and a 19 year old were killed and four other people were shot, including a 14 year old. That's "not that bad"?
500 shootings - how many of those were homicides? Also, Seattle is 83 square miles. I'm talking about what happened within a 6-block area over a span of 23 days.
As an immigrant to the US, your family likely had some level of success in order to afford to be able to come here. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. After all the people who uproot their lives are the brave ones who are willing to put in the work. This success was aided from a mentality that was ingrained over multiple generations.
I have noticed this mentality with multiple immigrants from various countries. What you may not have internalized is the context in which all these people have grown up in the US.
You need to suspend your biases for a moment: Imagine you are born in the inner city, your parents may not even be together(divorced or missing) during your formative years and money is always a struggle.
Now add in the local community is super rough and there may be a local culture of discouragement in excelling(ie, you are targeted by others if you stick out and try to escape your circumstances).
Now include an overpopulated school system that may or may not be extremely underfunded.
Finally sprinkle on the chance that if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, you could end up in jail due to circumstance beyond your control(you are around a robbery/killing despite not participating in it) or worse accidentally shot by a cop.
If you end up in jail, you are finished for life as this system is extremely harsh on people who enter the system. It is extremely difficult to escape the system once you enter. You may be hosed for generations.
Now you may ask, how did the family end up in that spot to begin with? Well it could go all the way back to slavery. The White slaveowners may have lost their slaves but they profited from the wealth created by the slaves in the form of infrastructure or equity. That wealth does not disappear and is passed down from generation to generation.
Now combine this with more modern practices like Redlining which served to invest in White America after WW2 while purposely excluding everyone else. Again white families building up additional wealth over generations while minorities are locked out. Is it any surprise we are in the current situation?
On another note: A lot of modern immigrants have tech to thank for their miracle in life. Here is an industry which the local population is not massively adept in and pays way above average salaries. It is a once in a generation opportunity for masses of immigrants to cut the line and catch up to white America that has generations of equity. In some cases, immigrants are blowing past white America (since rural America is flatlining). I hate the fact that many immigrants are ignorant of this reality. It will lead to people worse than Trump and sometimes it terrifies me that it will blow up in the immigrants faces when the incumbent citizenry has had enough and they push back.
When I was younger, I had a hard time understanding Malcolm X’s position; but individuals like Clarence Thomas and the ongoings of the 2020s have made it very clear.
I’d love to see moderate Republicans and the “equal opportunity” Black caucus find more common ground here.
Why? From first-hand experience (non-white) I can also attest to the racism of the liberal camp being present and more insidious.
Most centrist Republicans value equality. They've moved further left to capture the moderates. The problem is the Berkeley progressives (the extreme left) has no concession in their sights. They want to tear down institutions and gut it out. Kind of how the cryto currency guys want to start seasteading and destroy the US Federal Gov but entirely on a different axis.
I find race discussion from Columbia University linguist and NYTimes Columnist, John McWhorter, fascinating and profoundly pragmatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gQj5bkUeAc
I am so worn out from all this. Living here in Oakland, I cannot, absolutely will not raise my children here. Actively seeking jobs in Texas, Florida, Colorado, Georgia and North Carolina.
You know its funny I recently visited LA for the very first time for two weeks. (Im from the east coast). I was expecting a barren waste land because of all the talk from Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro about how terrible LA is. Instead what I found was a busting city with a lot of nice and interesting people from all walks of life. Did I see homeless? Yes, it was uncomfortable but after visiting many neighborhoods I came to realize that this right wing bashing of liberal places is exaggerated. California has a lot of problems and looking at the stats, it is actively losing population of people who make less than 100k. This is not good long term but honestly Texas or wherever else would have these same problems if they had this kind of economic gold rush in such a short amount of time. At the same time though it is not as bad as the right wingers seem to make it out to be.
If the Liberals are to be blamed for losing people, its because of decades of promises and not ever delivering.
Ha! This has been happening a lot longer than the 2020s. Its really a class issue not a race issue. The culture war is a distraction that allows the upper classes to continue the status quo. Sure we might have a pendulum swing to more right wing authoritarianism or we might move even further left wing woke but going back to moderate is a pipe dream because it ignores the fundamental issues that caused us to end up here in the first place: namely lack of fundamental reform.
First of all none of what I said has anything to do with 'wokeism' so your link is not relevant at all. I am simply looking at the statistics of people who manage to successfully arrive here and how they fared afterwards. The immigration process to this country is extremely hard. Therefore it is self selecting of people who are willing to make that effort to get through the process. You do not understand the context in which others grow up in this country. Thats where your ignorance is coming from. Too many people have a lack of historical knowledge of race relations in this country, especially immigrants.
many immigrants tend to be republicans out of ignorance. My family was too(they were single issue voters eg. Republicans would leave their home country alone). They do not know the history of the modern Republican party and what many of its leadership have done in the past. The Democrats are not some rosy heaven either but on many of the core issues, immigrants are shooting themselves in the foot long term by going Republican.
Wokeness is an extreme response to lack of fundamental change occurring over the last few decades. It has now mutated into this current monstrosity because people like Obama do nothing but pay lip-service. It has now boiled over into something...anything that can affect change, even if it is destructive. Wokeness is not sustainable but nonetheless it is now used as a rallying cry for the right wing to make up for their own declining cultural influence. Frankly I don't care for wokeness but I would never join the other side because as a minority and child of immigrants, I know I have no place there.
although it is tempting to say let's have a fresh start from today, and we are all equal and all have the same chances, some damage are made across generations (e.g check the wikipedia of Canadian Indian residential school system)
end of slavery in the u.s : 1865
end of racial segregation in the u.s : 1964~1968
gerrymandering : ongoing
this does not seems age/centuries ago to me, and a group(white) definitely profited from this inequality and pass the wealth on their heir, giving them an early advantage in life.
all I am saying, is, invest where the social need is, not based on the color of skin...
Slavery never ended in the US. It's alive and thriving to this day. They just need to throw a bunch of made up charges at you, so you plead guilty instead to a minor sentence instead of risking spending the rest of your life.
So basically you are saying your side is the best even though they sometimes make implementation errors (unintended side effects) while the other side is total evil ?
Read again what you wrote. We are not living in a movie.
I'm starting to believe this white guilt syndrome is a modern day version of the old American puritanism, or some other weird mutation of an idea of sin that somehow found its way into 21st century liberal consciousness.
And e.g. cancel culture is the new age version of Salem witch hunts, it comes from the same kind of self-righteous psyche, and is always about the collective vs. individual
Having lived in SF for more than a decade, I couldn't agree more. When I left, years ago, the guilt syndrome was so prevalent among well-compensated young tech workers that one could talk about mass-psychosis. I'm told it's gotten a lot worse...
The world doesn't run on "well-meaning" but realpolitik (look it up). The sort of discriminatory policies you espouse besides being corrosive poison to the unifying forces that create a nation state, fail to account for competition among nations.
The USA is free to teach CRT to kids, "decolonize mathematics", destroy meritocracy in public schools, lower the standards and burden young minds with race guilt and a feeling of entitlement (instead of striving for excellence) but one shouldn't be surprised if other countries that have maintained their connection with reality leave us in the dust.
I have a feeling it won't be dialed down, but dialed up to 12. There was an awesome cartoon that I can't find anymore - two VW busses side by side. One with a bunch of classic progressive stickers - "Liberty", "Civil Rights", "ACLU", "Free Speech", "EPA", etc. Another one that's beaten up, with "Race", "CRT", "Hate", etc. representing contemporary progressivism.
It’s crazy. I had a lot of respect for the ACLU, but the days where they stood for something; and everyone could point to the principles and at least begrudgingly admire it are long gone.
People aren't reporting all the crime because cops take 3-4 hours to show up and even when the cops do show up, they don't even always take a police report. For car breaks they tell you to call 311. If it's an issue with a homeless person (and most are) then they tell you to call the non-emergency line... It's a complete joke.
Last year my wife was pregnant and we had a homeless guy walking around our building with a machete and smoking meth and it still took the cops HOURS to show up and when they did--they just shooed him down the street. Great job! You have to have an actual restraining order for the cops to do anything and that takes time+money.
People just aren't wasting their time reporting crimes that they know the SFPD and city won't do anything about. I know I didn't report the last 3 times my car got broken into. Most people probably report it the first time, see that the SF basically takes no action, then stop reporting further break ins.
Anecdotally, this is the same anywhere. Cops take forever to show up. I always assumed it was a coordinated effort to pump the populace for more funding.
We need to stop normalizing states of “Emergency” to deal with everyday policy issues. It’s inappropriate, anti-democratic, and a dangerous road to head down.
I visited SF right before the pandemic, and 15 years before (I am French).
The difference was palpable. We used to walk down the streets at night with my wife 15 years ago, and we were walking quickly now with our children, surrounded by homeless people and dirty streets (or hotel was next to the harbor, in the touristic area).
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[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 188 ms ] threadhttps://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Defund-the-police-sf-oak...
https://defundsfpdnow.com/
Socialists eventually run out of other people's money. Corrupt ones faster than others.
I feel like there should be a way more reasonable middle ground on where to live between 'people are suffering let them steal from you and do whatever they want outside of murder' and 'no gay marriages, no abortion, no welfare', which seem about what we're stuck with anymore.
Does a city exist that is progressive in nature but tough on crime?
I've lived in 6 cities between the great lakes and FL, and it seems like all were way too far in one direction or the other.
If not in policy itself, then in the people.
The US is a big, beautiful, lately-developed, scenically/climatically diverse land that hasn’t had the need to go high-density. Nobody is pushing to build another Manhattan…if the US people had wanted it, the US would have built several Manhattans over the last few decades. Most “normal” (?) US people seem to like their little plot of land and their own detached house, especially as they build families and grow older. The US has always had that luxury/basic human right and the resources to build such houses and that has led to lower population densities even in cities. Most people like a little elbow room (cue the “sprawl is the Devil’s underpants” crowd).
In the early-mid 20th Century, “high-density” meant access to major cultural venues and performances, top performances in sports, first crack at new technologies, broader access to economic opportunities, ease of finding your unique subculture that you could fit into, etc.. and you paid for it in cost-of-living and congestion (time/hassle tax).
Unless you have a major fixation on live performances on a regular basis, most of those positive arguments have weakened in the face of the advances in IT. Not totally gone away, but an occasional visit to a “densely populated” area will check off most of those boxes. The button that says “I <heart> NY, from a comfortable distance” comes to mind.
If a particular densely populated area is your querencia, then of course you have a strong reason/commitment to stay and improve it. Clean it up, it’s your town. Welcome to the slog. You can’t just buy or choose it, you have to build it.
If it isn’t your querencia, then the benefits from trying yet another “densely populated” area seem to have weakened over time and perhaps you should broaden your outlook on things. Do you really want 10000/sq mi, or will 2000/sq mi suffice (or even 500/sq mi) with the occasional trip to any one of several densely populated cities? You’ll see more of the US/world that way, and maybe even save money. You’ll certainly save on the congestion/hassle tax on a day-to-day basis. Get to plant a real garden. Smile at your neighbor who isn’t just the jerk who lives above you.
What are the positive values that you associate with “densely populated”? They differ by individual. Is it size? There are people who like their City to be so big that they couldn’t possibly grok all of it in their lifetime. There is always something new. Some prefer a City they can just fit into their head, like a comfortable overstuffed chair. Some want a small village, to free the rest of their mind for the rest of the human experience. Enquiring minds want to know…
Singapore? You’ll need a system of low wage foreign workers to clean up after your citizens and a complete readjustment to living in small apartment high rises.
Americans don’t want either?
I think you really just wanted to make the case that the city's policies spurred crime, which is fine, but you should then do that directly instead of making kind of nonsensical snarky quips.
You are correct in my case. My entire comment was three sentences. It was perhaps just a hair snarky, admittedly, but I don't think it was full of quips or nonsensical.
edit: my bad - "Decriminalization or decriminalisation is the lessening or termination of criminal penalties in relation to certain acts" so these things can still be classified as crimes
This is how politicians create problems and then fix them in order to stay relevant and pretend they're doing actual work.
But I suppose it's possible that she believes she needs to start "doing something" about the crime problem even now (rather than waiting another year), or it could affect her chances at reelection.
Or a politician is simply reacting with the changing viewpoints of their constituents in regards to a failed policy. You know, how well-adjusted members of society behave when faced with changing circumstances.
I simply cannot tolerate this “us vs them” mentality in American politics.
This turnaround is because the political class/establishment got scared from both the Virginia (and somewhat New Jersey race), and in Seatle where people elected a republican DA. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/11/06/seattle-ele...
The 'progressives' and their insane left wing policies, are causing a major regress of quality of life of everyone in the city, and the rest of the country is paying attention. This is the rest of the political establishment trying to save their skin, and jumping from the sinking ship and trying to reverse course.
Also, both CA (LA and SA), and Seattle and Chicago are what happens when a region becomes a one party state. There is no more competition and the establishment gets entrenched to the point that it hard to dislodge, and they can enact all kind of crazy policies, that don't benefit their constituents.
The same thing, but opposite ideology (right wing), is in Hungary, Poland, and Turkey. (Orban and Erdogan are the opposite side of the same coin. Super entrenched majority, that is hard to kick out, and steer the place into regress, corruption or mismanagement).
Moral of the story: Don't vote blindly for one party. If the current elected leaders are not making your life better, vote them out.
For worse (certainly not better), we have 2 parties. One is far, far worse for the general population than the other. Yes, if the current elected leaders are not making your life better, vote them out, but that doesn't mean blindly for the other party. Vote for better democrats, progressive and (actual) working class representatives that aren't brought to you by Amazon. It's the only party that gives people like that a chance. No matter how small that chance might be, it's infinitely better than 0.
Current SF DA is an ultra progressive that doesn't want to jail criminals, and thinks stealing is redistribution. Also, the proposition 47 passed in CA that makes stealing a midemenor, . Both very 'progressive' ticket items. Also, police got less funding as well.
How are they working out for SF?
How are the open drug markets working for SF? Currently there are 570 people dying over overdose, every year. More than twice than covid, which we all admitted it was a national emergency.
Time to admit, 'progressive' policies are failures. They are just a left wing form of anarchy, and normal folks are getting fed up with them.
> Also, the proposition 47 passed in CA that makes stealing a midemenor
With the whole hijacking of BLM the police have become very cavalier towards even attempting to do their jobs. What started as a request to not shoot unarmed black people has morphed into police protesting by not enforcing their duties and using their unions as cover. This is to help encourage the failure of these proposals and revert to an exreme right wing policy.
In places like Oregon they don't even follow the will of the people (eg. ballot initiative to decriminalize all drugs just gets ignored by the mayor/police). The purpose of this law is to follow the Dutch model where people are given the drugs in a controlled environment and offered treatment options to wean them off. At least thats the end goal. But like everywhere else in this country where these bills get passed, they will be sabotaged by people at all layers that want to keep the crappy status quo(ie. a permanent racial underclass that serves the upper classes\corporate interests)
You are also ignoring all the big ticket items that they never get. Did you see how Bernie Sanders was totally curb-stomped by the DNC and afterwards they went back to sleep? Where is universal healthcare? tuition free college? federal jobs program? Green new deal Infrastructure/Jobs/R&D investment? Almost nothing progressive gets passed and when it does it gets sabotaged immediately.
I suggest you try shoplifting in any European country and see what happens.
Its even joked about in American media[1]:https://youtu.be/q7GiJHBNqvU?t=54
These laws that are causing all this chaos are a desperate attempt to break this cycle but clearly poorly implemented. But the fundamental truth is that we cannot achieve the European method without overhauling the whole system. That takes either a very brave politician at the top or people elected in the various multiple layers that form the current apparatus. I don't see progressives capable of doing this. It is near impossible to get just one person elected so overhauling the prison system? Forget about it.
The California minimum wage has increased every year since 2017 and will continue to do so through 2023: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_MinimumWage.htm
If you want to argue that 5-10% increases per year are not enough, OK, but you cant argue they haven't raised it.
The larger point I was trying to make is that they push symbolic or insignificant policy changes that don't actually do anything to improve the lives of most. There's a reason the working class keeps shifting away from democrats and to republicans. Someone living paycheck to paycheck doesn't have time to worry about "decolonizing" our education system. Democrat politicians like are their own greatest enemy. They can keep winning in democratic strongholds, but they've let republicans take over state and local politics in most states.
The Democratic party and its media arm made record levels of fundraising/profit money when Trump was in office and they were the #resistance. They are motivated by staying in power yes, but they benefit greatly from the other guys being in office as well. Its a stretch to say this is a coordinated move. While the DNC does coordinate, I suspect its more to do with complaints from corporate donors and not for any re-election efforts.
The only ones sounding the alarm over Virginia and NJ are the far left progressives but its clear the DNC does not care. Just look at Biden's actions. He has many levers he could pull right this minute to fire up the base (executive orders such as legalizing marajuanna, pardon all nonviolent drug offenders, forgive student debt, etc.) but he chooses not to. Their strategy is to blame progressives when they lose in 2022 and 2024 in an effort to further delegitimize them.
Probably part of it, but also the rich can't do their xmas shopping in Union Square safely this year, and if those stores close, not next year either. Everybody I've talked to in SF says they won't go there, even in daylight.
Note that Pelosi gave a statement about crime this week, but denied knowing the reasons behind it, since Marxists won't take accountability when their narrative is proven wrong. Just won't do it.
"Pelosi Weighs In on Crime Debate: ‘I Don’t Know’ Why Crime Is Increasing"
https://www.theepochtimes.com/pelosi-weighs-in-on-crime-deba...
I think that is reasonable. From these comments, I get a very "dammed if you do, damned if you don't" sentiment. Should she not try to improve things, just because they tried something and it went too far in the other direction?
Couldn't possibly be that:
* homelessness is a really complex problem, with lots of varied causes, not to mention a lot of barriers to anyone who is homeless reintegrating into society (for example, thanks to paranoia over terrorism, it can now be very difficult for someone who is or was homeless to get ID, get a bank account, etc. Homeless people don't have their birth certificates handy, don't typically have an address they get mail at, they don't receive bills, etc.)
* policies and programs take time to get going; there are lessons learned in planning, implementation, etc.
* change does not happen overnight; think of a city program to address homelessness like a container you're using to bail out a canoe that's full of water.
* it takes time to collect data, and more time to figure out what the data means
* it takes time to figure out what to do about that data
And so on, etc.
Unfortunately the damage has been done. Restorative justice born in SF is now a widespread practice, particularly along the west coast. In many of these cities we see the same policies of treating crimes as non crimes, removing consequences, releasing criminals early, and other such practices that ultimately risk public safety. I bet other cities will see the same effects as well.
Here's the very left supervisor Hillary Ronan describing Breed in 2018: "The same rich white men that steered the policies that have created the mess we are in today are the same people who are firmly behind the candidacy of London Breed." (https://beyondchron.org/sfs-twisted-racial-politics/)
Now, the progressive left is an extremely powerful force in the city, though not quite a majority. No mayor, whatever their political views, could get anything done without understanding how to placate that group. That's how politics works--you have to compromise to get anything done. Unfortunately, like Republicans nationally, local progressives have learned how to abuse that dynamic by using obstructionism and extreme rhetoric to pull the center of debate in their preferred direction. And that's how the city ends up with some of its more extreme policies and general paralysis.
Replacing them with people with zero history in politics is going to be nearly impossible. Wikipedia doesn't even consider Buttar notable enough to have his own article, and he still managed to get a quarter of the vote in the last election, which should be seen a real accomplishment.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
When an account crosses the 'primarily' line of doing this, that's the line at which we start banning, for reasons explained at these links:
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
People in my country of origin are shocked at what's going on in American left, they are already aware of the right. It's all fucked up.
I also think you perhaps don't know what "anarchy" is, if you think we have that in left-leaning cities.
Regardless, at the risk of devolving into whataboutism, the right has all of these same problems you describe, just orders of magnitude worse. Identity politics, racism (against minorities), corruption, authoritarianism (forget "undertones", as you say... it's blatant and out in the open). And kinda hard to say the GOP isn't attacking the "spirit of the nation"; I expect if the GOP had its way, your parents would never have been allowed to immigrate to the US in the first place.
Bottom line is that we have two party choices, and neither of them are great. At least most leftist policy positions are well-meaning, even if unintended consequences rear their ugly heads. When GOP policies result in negative outcomes, more often than not it's because that's what they intended. My feeling is that a lot of the bad stuff going on in leftist circles is due to overcorrection, not an active desire to do evil. Overcorrection tends to (heh) correct itself, as the pendulum starts to swing back.
Anyway, I probably shouldn't dive into politics here. Tempted to just hit the back button without posting this, but it disappoints me to see someone come down so hard on leftist policies when the right-wing equivalents are so much worse, and enacted in bad faith to boot.
I can't get past this. Just because some shit happened ages ago, you can't penalize current generation. I feel so digusted by this idea, it is extremely repulsive. There is no limit, no objectivity, you can go far back as centuries to feel guilt. Instead of looking forward, it is looking backwards.
America is one of those nations where once you're 18, you're on your own. Go win the world, it's your oyster. That's what my parents think. I am successful here as a person of color, not because of my skin but due to meritocracy.
You can twist this as much you want, but it changes the entire idea of 'fairness' in a generation of people. Instead of treating people equally, you're advocating more racism.
> I also think you perhaps don't know what "anarchy" is, if you think we have that in left-leaning cities.
This is anarchy IMO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest
[1]: https://reshmasanthosh91.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/picture...
As an immigrant to the US, your family likely had some level of success in order to afford to be able to come here. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. After all the people who uproot their lives are the brave ones who are willing to put in the work. This success was aided from a mentality that was ingrained over multiple generations.
I have noticed this mentality with multiple immigrants from various countries. What you may not have internalized is the context in which all these people have grown up in the US.
You need to suspend your biases for a moment: Imagine you are born in the inner city, your parents may not even be together(divorced or missing) during your formative years and money is always a struggle.
Now add in the local community is super rough and there may be a local culture of discouragement in excelling(ie, you are targeted by others if you stick out and try to escape your circumstances).
Now include an overpopulated school system that may or may not be extremely underfunded.
Finally sprinkle on the chance that if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, you could end up in jail due to circumstance beyond your control(you are around a robbery/killing despite not participating in it) or worse accidentally shot by a cop.
If you end up in jail, you are finished for life as this system is extremely harsh on people who enter the system. It is extremely difficult to escape the system once you enter. You may be hosed for generations.
Now you may ask, how did the family end up in that spot to begin with? Well it could go all the way back to slavery. The White slaveowners may have lost their slaves but they profited from the wealth created by the slaves in the form of infrastructure or equity. That wealth does not disappear and is passed down from generation to generation.
Now combine this with more modern practices like Redlining which served to invest in White America after WW2 while purposely excluding everyone else. Again white families building up additional wealth over generations while minorities are locked out. Is it any surprise we are in the current situation?
On another note: A lot of modern immigrants have tech to thank for their miracle in life. Here is an industry which the local population is not massively adept in and pays way above average salaries. It is a once in a generation opportunity for masses of immigrants to cut the line and catch up to white America that has generations of equity. In some cases, immigrants are blowing past white America (since rural America is flatlining). I hate the fact that many immigrants are ignorant of this reality. It will lead to people worse than Trump and sometimes it terrifies me that it will blow up in the immigrants faces when the incumbent citizenry has had enough and they push back.
Proof from NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/31/us/politics/obama-woke-ca...
My family moved here with $8000. I went to college for free (HOPE scholarship).
I’ve been listening to centrist republicans and my vote is going to go for them. Possibly forever unless Democrats fix this wokeness.
https://www.thetimesnews.com/story/opinion/columns/2019/01/0...
When I was younger, I had a hard time understanding Malcolm X’s position; but individuals like Clarence Thomas and the ongoings of the 2020s have made it very clear.
I’d love to see moderate Republicans and the “equal opportunity” Black caucus find more common ground here.
Why? From first-hand experience (non-white) I can also attest to the racism of the liberal camp being present and more insidious.
I find race discussion from Columbia University linguist and NYTimes Columnist, John McWhorter, fascinating and profoundly pragmatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gQj5bkUeAc
I am so worn out from all this. Living here in Oakland, I cannot, absolutely will not raise my children here. Actively seeking jobs in Texas, Florida, Colorado, Georgia and North Carolina.
If the Liberals are to be blamed for losing people, its because of decades of promises and not ever delivering.
many immigrants tend to be republicans out of ignorance. My family was too(they were single issue voters eg. Republicans would leave their home country alone). They do not know the history of the modern Republican party and what many of its leadership have done in the past. The Democrats are not some rosy heaven either but on many of the core issues, immigrants are shooting themselves in the foot long term by going Republican.
Wokeness is an extreme response to lack of fundamental change occurring over the last few decades. It has now mutated into this current monstrosity because people like Obama do nothing but pay lip-service. It has now boiled over into something...anything that can affect change, even if it is destructive. Wokeness is not sustainable but nonetheless it is now used as a rallying cry for the right wing to make up for their own declining cultural influence. Frankly I don't care for wokeness but I would never join the other side because as a minority and child of immigrants, I know I have no place there.
although it is tempting to say let's have a fresh start from today, and we are all equal and all have the same chances, some damage are made across generations (e.g check the wikipedia of Canadian Indian residential school system)
end of slavery in the u.s : 1865
end of racial segregation in the u.s : 1964~1968
gerrymandering : ongoing
this does not seems age/centuries ago to me, and a group(white) definitely profited from this inequality and pass the wealth on their heir, giving them an early advantage in life.
all I am saying, is, invest where the social need is, not based on the color of skin...
And e.g. cancel culture is the new age version of Salem witch hunts, it comes from the same kind of self-righteous psyche, and is always about the collective vs. individual
The USA is free to teach CRT to kids, "decolonize mathematics", destroy meritocracy in public schools, lower the standards and burden young minds with race guilt and a feeling of entitlement (instead of striving for excellence) but one shouldn't be surprised if other countries that have maintained their connection with reality leave us in the dust.
If you're not convinced, history is full of examples of ideology-driven politics leading to disaster : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
This is easy to correct and should be corrected in 2021 and onward, but the extreme left somehow dialed things to 11.
https://sfgov.org/scorecards/public-safety/violent-crime-rat...
But it appears that compared to a similarly sized city (850,000ish) Jacksonville FL, San Fr. has almost twice as much property crime.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/jacksonville/crime
Does anyone have any additional data that would be good to look at to get a clearer picture?
Last year my wife was pregnant and we had a homeless guy walking around our building with a machete and smoking meth and it still took the cops HOURS to show up and when they did--they just shooed him down the street. Great job! You have to have an actual restraining order for the cops to do anything and that takes time+money.
People just aren't wasting their time reporting crimes that they know the SFPD and city won't do anything about. I know I didn't report the last 3 times my car got broken into. Most people probably report it the first time, see that the SF basically takes no action, then stop reporting further break ins.
The difference was palpable. We used to walk down the streets at night with my wife 15 years ago, and we were walking quickly now with our children, surrounded by homeless people and dirty streets (or hotel was next to the harbor, in the touristic area).
It is a shame, I liked SF a lot.