Maybe the firmware is important for the dishwasher though, but it should still function without it. I imagine a dystopian future where some society fails for some reason and internet stop being reliable. So much of our technology is dependent on it to work.
It could be war, it could be solar winds or even more likely that the manufacturer goes out of business and closes down their servers.
This is just pretty bad and I think most of us can agree. Nothing will ever change though since you pretty much don't know about this until it happens to you.
Personally I try to avoid these connected appliances like the plague. That said, if today's dishwasher market is anything like that of TVs, it wouldn't be easy to find one that's up to spec that doesn't come with all this nonsense.
It will only be a matter of time before there is zero selection. Because IoT is the hip thing, and only will be moreso. But the hacker community will eventually figure out ways of libre-izing these machines with custom firmware, when it becomes a big enough problem.
I am prepared for that. Dirty dishes go in the sink and two hands wash them and place them on a drying rack. Dirty clothes go into two buckets one with holes in it and a plunger washes the clothes using two hands. As a bonus I get exercise without a club membership. I know it isn't hip but it's retro and could make a come-back any day.
I try too but it's basically impossible. I was on the hunt for a dumb tv the other day only to realize that there is simply none on the market. Literally not a single one that's larger than 65" that I could find and for the few ones that do exist the panels are pretty bad.
Just a matter of time until happens to a lot of other appliances.
And not enough people are fighting back. There's always someone who can come up with one legitimate use case for the complexity, and thus it has to be accepted.. somehow that use case is never weighed against the cost of complexity, or the cost is always underestimated or outright dismissed.
Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available.
There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu to start it then when? It's just asking "Do you want to do this now?" if not that is fine (the menu can be exited), but now you know to do it later.
Alternatively as the dishwasher clearly is on Wi-Fi already (the only way it would know there's an update), one can use the Miele@Home app to perform the update at a more convenient time.
I have a Miele dishwasher, it is connected to Wi-Fi (on a VLAN with other white goods, outbound connections to certain domains only). The Wi-Fi is useful... the dishwasher auto-doses the powder, rinse aid, salt, etc... and can let me know the levels of those. In addition it tells me when the cycle is done. Performs updates, etc. There's a Home Assistant integration too, but I've not done that (my VLAN setup prevented it!).
PS: If you're of the opinion that a dishwasher doesn't need to be on Wi-Fi and you wouldn't connect it... then great, that's another way not to be asked to do an update. This dishwasher isn't going to ask to connect to Wi-Fi, it's something you choose to do (something that takes a degree of determination I might add).
Yeah, that tweet is click-bait meant to generate outrage clicks and follows. Most of the submissions on the front-page have -at best- incomplete titles.
buro9 has just explained that it will work without the update. The person in question also had the choice either to not buy a wifi enabled smart dishwasher, or not connect it to the internet. My own smart TV is not connected to the internet.
... if you know the secret button sequence to break out of the menu.
I can't think of a good reason to have a network-connected dishwasher. I don't think I'd ever start it remotely, as I still have to clear the table and rinse the dishes. The washer gets started when I'm done loading it. I can check detergent levels while the door is open.
Pretty much the same for all my other appliance for that matter.
> ... if you know the secret button sequence to break out of the menu.
I did see the twitter screenshots, but as I don't own the device myself I couldn't really judge if the GP's instructions are readily apparent to the average user.
Also, I don't disagree with you. But the OP seemingly bought such a device and connected it to their wifi. Maybe they are living in a furnished apartment with pre-configured wifi? Anyway - thankfully we are not yet in an era where ones only choice is a connected dishwasher - can still buy used, older models etc.
edit: One would hope that you can factory reset the dishwasher to make it forget the wifi information, if it has been configured by someone else.
Then don't purchase a smart dishwasher. I won't be purchasing one either, nor will I purchase a smart microwave or a host of other smart appliances. The person who made the tweet, made the exact opposite decision AND connected their appliance to the internet.
Eh. I'm not saying that bad or deceptive UI isn't something worth talking about, but I think there is a really tangible difference between something being difficult to find and being impossible to do.
In some contexts, sure. There's a step change between an appliance doing this--where you are expected to have limited capabilities--and something like a general-purpose computer doing this.
An appliance going "nope, I have one path for this" is, tbh, to be expected. A dishwasher washes dishes, and the idea that there is a secret-sauce way to tell it to do something it isn't actively presenting to you is not something a reasonable person is going to expect. It's why my dishwasher has like eight buttons on the top--it enumerates everything it can do. So if that appliance is hiding its verbs, then a reasonable person is going to assume it doesn't have any.
I mean the tweet is putting the blame at the wrong people (it's a business decision after all), but I wouldn't go as far as call it "hate-inciting nonsense". You're not under attack.
The twitter poster in question, isislovecruft, has a bit of a volatile persona online. They have been involved in multiple controversies over the years. Not to discredit their work, but they seem to relish in the tech social media spotlight.
I've been shopping these- I don't like network connected anything for appliances. Including for the reasons you gave.
But there are miele versions with custom programmable cycles for things like sterilizing labware, etc, where I could see a web page interface much easier to use than the buttons or screen on the device.
At the risk of sounding old and snarky, I’ve been looking at a Miele dishwasher and I’m afraid I’m not quite intelligent enough to use it without either an app or an advanced training program. Crap, what happened to ‘normal’ versus ‘heavy’? The damned things are more complicated than my child.
These machines have too many controls. My washer always runs on the same setting (I occasionally press the ECO button). Admittedly, most of my clothes are cotton or similar. When I had a dishwasher it was similar, but with a digital console. I used to just press "Wash". Of course, the controller board that makes all those options available is often the first thing to fail.
There's about a dozen settings on the washer's wash-cycle dial, and two rows of buttons. I don't know what they're all for. It's nuts - there must be about 40 combinations.
Updates improve wash efficiency, etc. Not just security updates. Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo. Maybe there's a better dosing for certain levels of water hardness.
But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.
Maybe there's some new dirt-sensing algorithms that can use crowd-sourced info to improve the efficiency for your specific dirt patterns and water type and detergent combination.
Man if it could sense when the dishes are loaded so poorly that there’s no chance they get clean and just refuse to run until they’re rearranged, that would be so nice!
In theory, but in practice it doesn't actually matter enough for it to make a difference. What software-only advances are being made in wash efficiency these days?
Release Notes v3: Accidentally added too many dubs leading to "scrubba-dub-dub-dub-dub-dub-dub-dub" routine. Rolled back to a reasonable number of dubs.
Do they? Because that's literally the only kind of update I'd be interested in. If they actually regularly improve the way the dishwasher washes dishes, then that justifies the connectivity, but if these updates are rare, then I don't really care about them.
I've used Miele appliances for 3 decades now. Somehow, until recently, they managed to provide excellent quality and durability without spying on their users and releasing half baked firmwares in need of updates.
This can easily been spun the other way around:
There was a firmware upgrade that would save 10% energy / water / time in certain circumstances, but that evil corp hasn't provided us with a way to upgrade, because they want us to buy a brand new dishwasher.
Except that they clearly never tried to incentivize customers into frequent upgrades. Quite unlike most other brands that have a habit of dying months out of warranty.
Anecdata: In my wive's house, we have a Miele wasching machine from the year 2000. Its been used daily. It is as good as on the day it was purchased - quiet, and does not vibrate even when spinning at its max 1600 rpm. Its pretty amazing.
I believe when it was last cleaned they did install new firmware -- though to be entirely hoenest, I doubt a lot of people really know or care how efficient their wasching machines are -- water is way too cheap.
The cynic in me would be really surprised if this were the case. I imagine it's more about collecting data, and updating so it can collect more data, better.
Every dishwasher I've ever used, your best bet is to put everything on full blast, least efficient settings. Otherwise the dishes get "almost" clean. I always imagine the engineers standing around patting themselves on the back after testing, and marveling how their ideas worked so well most of the dishes got clean.
The dishes all need to be totally clean, every time, or it's useless to me.
Isn't this the truth. Over Christmas family was around and someone loaded the dishwater and put it on economical or whatever the 'easy wash' mode was called, i chuckled knowing they might as well waved the dirty dishes in the sky for an equilavent wash. Its like, why are the other options even there...Intensive wash, every time.
Same experience here. This can’t be right though. Surely we are the exceptions and there really are idiotic committees forcing manufacturers to include eco settings that don’t work - rather than the other explanation of some dishwashers being crap?
My Mum has a Hotpoint because she skimped on it during a kitchen refit. It's complete crap compared to a mid-tier Bosch: the cleaning is worse, the tablet often gets stuck in the tray, and it doesn't dry properly.
That said, even the Bosch needed a new heat pump after 3 years which was an adventure in unreasonably complex disassembly.
We just run the normal eco program without any extras. The dishes get perfectly clean every time as long as nothing hinders the rotating arms that spray water.
Depends on the size of your household a bit. If it runs every second day, it should not be a problem. If you save dishes for a week or two, the additional water from the intensive program really helps to get rid of dried out dirt.
Ours runs 2-3 times a day, but even still, I typically soak all the cutlery in a tall glass or pitcher full of water in the sink, and load it last minute. There are just too many nooks and crannies for stuff to get stuck in on a fork or knife, and they cleaning they get in a three-rack machine is too gentle for anything other than a sterilizing rinse.
This is the big cause of issues for us (Bosch 800). Either the arms are blocked or the holes clogged, or the middle rack's hose junction hasn't properly mated with the water source at the back of the machine.
Overall I'm really happy with this machine though; worth the pretty penny it costs.
> There is no need to rinse items under
running water!
Dishwashers already pre-wash with an initial rinse cycle, the whole point is that they do the washing for you. It's also a whole lot more efficient in terms of water waste.
The problem is when you don't give that first cycle any powder to work with, ie. if you're using pods.
I have a Bosch dishwasher and in the manual it actually states not to pre-rinse the dishes before putting them into the dishwasher. Of course I rinse the bigger pieces of food off anyway because otherwise the filter will need to be cleaned more often (doesn't have a grinder/disposal), but it does also waste a ton of water, and energy heating that water, to pre-wash your dishes.
I believe the real trick is not to overfill the machine with dishes, and ensure your dishes are arranged properly.
> I believe the real trick is not to overfill the machine with dishes, and ensure your dishes are arranged properly.
This. Filling a dishwasher is an art of binpacking in itself. I'm pretty satisfied by my Bosch one, unless it is just a1-2 cycle before asking for the cleaning cycle, 95% of the times everything come up perfectly clean, even with the "eco" program. When something comes out dirty (if everything was properly placed), usually it will nag you to clean the dishwasher on the next cycle or the other.
I've never pre-washed dishes unless it is rice. Everything else goes straight into the dishwasher as it was collected from the table. Always comes out clean and never had problems (unless it is rice... which seems to never get fully rinsed away).
I never do, and my dishwasher works fine? What am I doing wrong? Why would I "prewash" and waste precious water and time when it's going to be washed just fine?
Some people put the dirtiest dishes in the history of humanity in their washer and then complain it doesn’t clean very well. A quick rinse with water to get the chunks, or the really caked on stuff off works wonders.
I don't have any issues putting dirty dishes in my dishwasher. Do you use pre-wash detergent in your machine? I highly recommend you watch this video by Technology connections[1], I too used to think I had to rinse my dishes before putting them in the machine.
Until we use the last of the pods up I've found if you put a squirt or two of Dawn Powerwash in for the prewash it works amazingly well. And before the inevitable comments come up: unlike regular dish soap (do NOT put in a dishwasher) it doesn't suds up either. Yeah, it does a little at first but by the end of the prewash cycle the foam is gone - yes, I have checked.
As an aside: Dawn Powerwash is flat out amazing in general, especially for really crusty/baked on stuff. Spray some on, come back in 15 minutes and it will more than likely wipe right off - if it hasn't dissolved whatever was crusted on and ran off already. If you haven't tried it and it's available in your area give it a try! Amazing degreaser. Works on laundry with grease stains, carpet, oil stains on the driveway (mop up with kitty litter/towels; don't wash down the street!) and all kinds of other non-kitchen uses too.
Yup - the amount of excess detergent alone that is being washed into the wastewater systems is staggering when you think about how much is extra detergent in fixed size pods is wasted across the board.
My parents had a GE dishwasher that auto dosed a liquid paste dishwashing detergent. It worked great, only dispensing what the dishwasher sensed the dirt load called for. For some reason my mom hated it and they replaced that dishwasher with one that they now use pods with. Sigh - I don't think she liked the feeling of not being in control.
We humans can be so annoying sometimes.
EDIT: that GE also did it without requiring a wifi connection or firmware updates :p
I can guarantee that the majority of the ineffective cycles are there because of environmental regulations (energy star in the US; there are equivalents in other western countries).
The big one that drives me nuts on new cars are all the auto start/stop at idle systems. They eat car batteries and starters (increase wear from oil starvation on startup too - consumer car engines are not positively lubricated; pressure has to pump back up every time the engine starts) and there is no way to disable them other than pushing a button every time you start your car (or hacking around with the wiring), but I'm sure they are critical in obtaining higher gas milage requirements so expect them to proliferate. It's crap that happens when you focus on one metric - gas milage - to the exclusion of "the big picture" such as total carbon footprint over the life of the car including the manufacturing and replacement costs/environmental impact of replacing prematurely worn out parts from "energy efficient" design decisions.
> Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo.
Or it is treated by the same algorithm like all the other cleaning powders, which is: "mix with water then spray through nozzles". Strangly enough, this has worked great for decades without firmware updates. For the longest time it even worked without firmware.
> Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo.
Ah, fantastic. "Now that we have updated the firmware, we have determined that you need the new proprietary cleaning powder. For your convenience, the dishwasher is disabled until you supply the proper cleaning powder."
Maybe a silly question, but does Miele require a specific kind of cleaning powder or packet, or does it have an option to tell it what kind of cleaning powder you're using?
My dishwasher you just dump any boxed powder in and I can use any brand I want. I'm assuming that for a machine this expensive and geared at long-term usage Miele would have the same capabilities, and it's not like a Keurig thing where the user is forced to use individual pods.
But if that's the case then I'm not sure how this would work unless the user enters a config setting or something for what soap they're commonly using. Water hardness the washer could measure itself, I guess.
it's manual for older miele.
in new one you can either use standard detergent (pod, liquid, powder) or you can insert special 400g disc of powder and it was be auto-dispensed
The washing machine auto-dosing though... that isn't as bad, being more cost-efficient overall.
My take on it all: Miele dishwashers are so-so... their washing machines and fridges excellent, the ovens above average, the hobs exceptional, the hoods well made but over-priced.
Entire dishwasher it's a gimmick. you can wash dishes yourself. or you can use dishwasher in order to save some time. same with auto-dosing - it's a convenience and it's really convenient. with regards to pricing: machine comes with 6 disks. You can refill them later with usual powder in a couple of minutes.
Another gimmick that machine has, it's auto-opening at the end of the cycle in order to vent off steam.
I had many different dishwashers over the years, but Miele one is so far the best I ever had
There's no particular incentive for the changes made after the sale to improve functionality, particularly if the nominal owner of the machine can't detect them. If your wash efficiency is better this month than last month, wouldn't you like to know what change caused that? How about if it's worse? What if it accidentally breaks your dishwasher? Or the new, more efficient settings no longer get your dishes fully clean?
I don't think there's a terribly strong incentive for Miele to actively break their customers' deployed machines, since those customers might buy a Bosch next time, but there isn't a terribly strong incentive for them to improve them either.
There is a strong incentive for Miele to find ways to sell their customers' personal information, for example to insurance companies, collection agencies, or police forces, and this is functionality that can be added later in a firmware update.
Better to leave update functionality under the control of the people who are most directly affected by it: the users.
We used to get this right before stamping them out in the factory. Instead, everything is all appy now, for the benefit of the manufacturer. They are riding the hype to normalize their shitty behavior. Sort of like when banks inconvenience you for thier sake and say it's to protect you (the person under no risk of liability).
To be fair, it could also get functionality updates. For example they could upload a new totally different UX loved by the designers and that nobody else understands how to use ;-)
Miele (and BSH) is really good at industrial design in my experience so I'd be surprised if they'd do something like that. However, I also don't really see a particular reason why a dishwasher needs WiFi. Do people actually like... check on them and come running to unload it when it's done? I suppose for checking if it needs dishwasher salt or rinse aid it could make sense but ... eh
My first reaction was to write a comment about why you don't need WiFi on a dishwasher. Then I found there may be use cases: you want to start the washing program from the office so it finishes right before you get home. That day when you need to stay another hour in the office, being able to interact with the machine is a nice to have, even if not a really important thing. Same as with air conditioning when you want to save electricity.
Off-peak electricity pricing, not wanting to wake/disturb others with noise, not wanting to consume too much hot water before the rest of the house showers or uses the clothes washer...
Yep, it's just a dial that lets me delay up to 12 hours lol. Overengineered hackable electronics. I'd rather than cost go into a more sturdy unit made of better materials. My dishwasher is 20 years old and works fine. The owner of the house before me said he did have one of the timer replaced at some point.
We try to avoid running our dishwasher when our toddler is around because he will interfere with the cycle, but sometimes we forget to start it right before heading out the door. Remote start would be handy in a case like that :)
Still an overengineered solution -- a better feature would be some kind of access lock. Either a keycode or something requiring a lot of strength to remove.
(Edit: With that said, I am reluctant to leave the dishwasher on when I'm not present for the first cycle just because of the risk of something going wrong that wasn't adequately checked for.)
Miele's user interface isn't that great. I owned a Miele laundry machine. After you press "start" there is no way you can undo that. This sucks. Even missiles have an "unlaunch" feature.
With my washing machine, I press the button. It'll say "no", drain down the drum so the water doesn't fall out when the door opens, then say "yes" and the door unlocks.
Apps used: 0.
Would be useful if the machine could select and load the washing itself from the basket, I'd use that app.
but why? I mean if I'm doing laundry I'm within 50 ft of the machine generally? I have never needed to do such an operation or can think of a situation where the added complexity merits the addition of wifi and security threats of a Russian hacker trying to mine etherium on my dish washer.
I can't claim to know every Miele there is but both an early 80s and an early 2010s Miele has pause/continue buttons. On the 2010 one it even looks like a play-pause button.
I would find it useful to check whether the dishwasher is currently running. At least BSH has models without any indication outside where the dishwasher is fully hidden behind a frame.
There is no need of a screen. Either a WPS button or start in access point mode, find its IP address, connect to a web server on that address and set the SSID and password there. I got stuff doing both ways upon the first start up or after a factory reset.
"Soon you will be able to turn on your water valve and enjoy clean dishes, almost as much joy as being a part of the Tesla Family. Keep your eyes out for a dry cycle for only an additional $8000"
> To be fair, it could also get functionality updates
This is an important point that owners[1] sometimes miss.
For example, if the owner makes a deal to partner with the maker of a particular detergent tab, the owner could create a new feature that only works with those tabs and not regular powder detergent.
1: Owner: the person who owns the firmware being sent over WiFi.
Never is a strong word. If corporations can take advantage of you, so you can you of them. I’m yet to pay a single dollar for ink. The free 10 pages a month plan with HP allows me to use it to print the occasional recipes and labels in full color for free. I knew I’m not going to print too much stuff and I can swap it out for my own ink if my need changes. I keep the printer plugged out except when I need to print and it works out well for me so far.
(This was why HP was trying to phase out the plan).
Yeah but usually what happens is that no new development of that sort occurs during the (intentionally limited by cheaped-out hardware design) lifetime of the appliance. If they do push any updates, they'll either be to fix security problems (only if you're lucky enough that they get fixed at all), or they'll push some horrible software feature users didn't ask for which worsens their experience vs how it operated when purchased and brings new bugs. Appliance manufacturers are terrible at firmware/software. You get all the downsides and none of the upsides.
And just general bug updates. Remember how buggy appliances used to be, back in the bad old days when they were too simple to run whole operating systems? A couple months after release these things will be mostly free of glitches!
The only UI a dishwasher needs is "wash" and "dishes in here are still clean don't put in dirty dishes yet." I've yet to see a dishwasher do the latter with the necessary nuance.
Meta: I intended this comment to be a pun because of the post about the Tesla 3 update but it is getting a surprising number of upvotes. Apparently it's striking a chord.
First of all, if you're a UX designer sorry for being a little snarky to you. A fair amount of it is probably unfair.
Second, maybe you can shed some light on why that kind of UX updates happen. As somebody else wrote in another comment "designers designing for design sake". Maybe it's not.
Third, maybe you can enlighten us developers about the circumstances when designers think that developers develop for development sake. I'm sure it happens.
Those old TVs had some serious usability issues, though. There were 10 (?) channels selectable by one knob, and then additional channels selected if the main knob was turned to the correct setting ("UHF", if I recall correctly). The master knob tended to be below the additional-frequency knob, though, which seems a little strange. Then there was the challenge of the fine adjustment ring on the UHF selector for tuning (not sure if the master knob had one). And, of course, the more frequently needed coarse adjustment from the (unmentioned) antenna, which seemed like it always needed some hacky tweaking. Including sometimes touching it continuously in order to get a good picture.
Do never connect things to any network - and especially the internet - if it is not required for operation.
What worries are people which blindly request "more digitalization". We need resilience, not digitalization! Once a unnamed person complained about the fact the the Boeing 747-400 still gets flight data updates with a floppy. They argued it should use WiFi and central updates from a server and so on. NOT! The floppy allows control, save operation and flexible updates. Don't even add an USB-Port, this just allows someone to roast the electronics with a cheap USB-Gadget.
Just let programmers program more code doesn't make good programs. Actually it is vice versa.
Seriously I don’t understand the need at all to have your kitchen be connected to wifi at all. Not everything needs to be quantified, unless you use measuring cups for cooking.
Second I can’t trust manufacturers to rush something out the door to “fix it in post”
Consumers obviously see enough value in remote control for it to be added as a feature, I'm not sure putting the cat in the bag is a great solution at this point
That said while I do disagree with the above consumers, I don't care about remote control but I would quite like remote status updates from various appliances (is the door locked, is the washing cycle finished, has the fridge been left open, etc.)
Important to remember these kinds of devices might not have any personal info on them, but they can still be useful for DDoS attacks and other things that are bad for everyone.
The WiFi functionality on Miele appliances is completely optional. Just don’t connect it to WiFi during initial setup and it’ll never do anything connected or prompt you about it. You can also reset the config if you change your mind later. You can even buy the cheaper model without WiFi. Frankly, I don’t see the problem here.
As opposed to stupider and more tedious ways to do firmware updates.
Real-world examples:
(1) Download firmware, stick it on a USB drive, put USB drive in device, go through arcane menus or button press sequence to do an update. I have two devices that work this way, an aftermarket car stereo Bluetooth adapter and a (musical) keyboard.
(2) Install some app (and maybe a driver) on a Windows computer, connect device to computer, and have the app push the firmware to the device. I have an old Garmin GPS watch that does it this way. (Which is extra annoying because the watch has an Android companion app which communicates with the watch over Bluetooth, and it can tell you an update is available but can't apply it.)
LOL my exact thoughts. I mean I would think the kinks would be worked out before it hits my kitchen. I mean it's a dishwasher, not a robotic arm assembling cars with sub mm resolution. Add an emergency usb connection for critical upgrades as in "woah we missed something really big" and be done.
Hah, I have an AC window unit from Miele that is a great piece of hardware. But the app, my god, it's so bad. Every launch of the app requires a log in. Every log in error messages pop up about api endpoint such and such, but it works anyway. If a command fails, which it does half the time, the app gets out of sync with the unit (i.e. app will say fan speed medium, unit will say fan speed low). So I guess it syncs state on startup and never again, and doesn't check if commands fail. But there is one feature I can only find in the app, not from buttons on the unit (turning all LEDs off on the unit while it continues to run).
The buzzwords I never hear on HN is Digital Twin. It's usually in a HVAC or like smart building context. It's a buzzword for a simple idea, but the makers of the Miele AC app probably should have thought a little harder about tracking system state, maybe read a little of the literature.
I have a Miele speed oven that arrived with a major defect: Microwave worked, but heat modes didn't. They sent a repair crew and there was a missing wire harness in the circuitry. It never could have worked.
My experience with "high end" appliances in general (Bosch, Miele, Wolf, Subzero) is that it's a tax on "rich people". They're not better than top-line LG, etc.
I agree on a lot of them. Miele however, my mother's last Miele dishwasher lasted 22 years and they were still selling spare parts up until the day she replaced it. That's pretty unheard of in today's day and age
Yup. I tend to prioritize manufacturers like Whirlpool that make service manuals and parts readily available. Sadly Whirlpool is in an ever shrinking minority. Here in the US there are zero advantages to the European brands - parts and service are atrocious adding insult to injury.
Theres more than initial acquisition cost or the looks of the appliance that's worth considering when purchasing!
That's their service department. The build quality is an entirely different story and Miele stuff in stores today is not of the same quality that it was 22 years ago. And it definitely isn't the same as it was 50 years ago (amazingly: some of that stuff still runs today).
Miele had a definite edge on build quality, that means that services are fewer and farther between than with other brands given the same amount of use.
The joke was that if you wanted to armor plate your car you could do so with the side panels of Miele washing machines. Not too far from the truth, they were also much heavier than competitor gear. But those days are - as far as I can tell - over.
Maybe, maybe not. But a lot of those companies haven’t existed for longer than my latest washer.
You buy those brands because you know exactly what you get. Basically guaranteed performance for the next 10 years, and very likely after.
I do wish they didn’t jump on the app bandwagon, but they really have no choice since the rabble wants it. I swear people will pick an appliance with an app simply so they don’t have to press the preheat button on their oven. And you can do it from the couch! Never mind that you don’t ever do that…
"You buy those brands because you know exactly what you get."
No, you won't. Just because you had an appliance that lasted 20 years before doesn't mean you are going to get the same today (you aren't). Energy efficiency standards have affected all manufacturers. Complexity leads to unreliability over time - all manufacturers are affected. Some will still be better than the rest, but if you aren't prioritizing manufacturers who are repair friendly you are going to either be spending multiples of the original cost of your appliance over time, or just flat out replacing them more often.
Or just fix that 20 year old appliance you already have when it breaks (almost always the best answer vs. buying new - with just about anything!)
> I swear people will pick an appliance with an app simply so they don’t have to press the preheat button on their oven.
Absolutely. The other day a colleague described the fact that her washing mashine's app tells her when the program is finished as an essential, must-have feature. I understand that it's useful and nice to have but if you're wearing an Apple Watch anyway, as she does, just set a timer. It's what I do.
Bosch has a lot of product lines at many levels of quality/value and features. A buddy of mine was an engineer on a project that cloned the Miele G7xxx (their top-of-the-line dishwasher), their version is in the same class as a Miele G7 and the (extremely high) price is comparable too.
Definitely middling quality and design. Our Bosch dishwasher has the worst UI. Nothing exterior at all, only buttons inside the door itself. There's a secret button combo to set the "done" alarm to one of 4 volume settings: too loud, even louder, why is this so f'ing loud, and silent. So you either get a horrible noise that rings intermittently until you open it, or you get to play guessing games.
Our Breville toaster oven has the same loudness settings, but only 3 total. You clearly have the ability to set the loudness - give me a really quiet (but not silent) option damnit. I have a baby in the house.
Just crack it open and either clip the leads to the "speaker" or put a few layers of tape over it. I too hate appliances with loud beeps - or the new annoying trend of playing songs (usually from the Asian manufacturers).
Love my Breville toaster oven though - thing is so stinking versatile and by far the best of any I have ever used. We use it as an oven far more than as a toaster. Perfect for heating/baking most stuff without heating up the entire house like the regular oven does. We have the one that also has the air fry mode - use that mode all the time to cook vegetables that are delicious and a lot healthier too. Did I mention we really love our Breville toaster oven? And to think I originally chose it because it was the only one I could find that had a stinking light inside?
please, rich people don't even notice the cost of these pieces of equipment. the ones that might feel the pinch are the ones punch above their weight class to give of the look the are better off than they are. not much different from classes of cars that look like you make money, but every time you take them to the dealership, minimum $800.
if that's a tax on rich people, then they aren't very rich.
I have to sort-of disagree with you! I've used 100s of dishwashers (used to work at a test lab) and Miele dishwashers are indisputably "better" (more on that below) than anything else on the consumer market, and I would be completely willing to bet you a nice dinner that you would agree after using one. Same for their vacuums, they are on a completely different level of performance than anything else I've used.
All that said, I do not own a Miele dishwasher because it's benefits are not worth the high cost to me, however I have severe allergies and while I hated to pay for it, a Miele vacuum has ruined me for all other vacuums.
*Not a Miele salesman, just love very clean carpets. I'd be thrilled to learn about a cheaper alternative that can remove hair/dander/dust and etc as well from carpets as a Miele can, but so far nothing has come close.
Best thing for carpets is a central vacuum system. Oversize the motor unit and you can get units that will suck up 2" rocks with zero problems. The noisy motor can be located anywhere instead of in the room with you - I love to put it outside in the garage. And as someone with allergies, the biggest advantage of a central vac is it can be plumbed to fart the exhaust outdoors!
And if you have hard surface floors there is nothing faster than pulling out a lightweight flexible hose with a floor brush and running the vac over it. Faster than sweeping and again doesn't stir up dust/dander/hair like sweeping does.
I will never own a house without a central vac. And if you are really OCD about your carpet cleaning there are Wet/Dry central vac systems that have built in carpet cleaners. Will automatically discharge the waste water to the sewer. A bit pricy and exotic but I have a few friends who if they owned such a system would probably use them weekly (and mold the heck out of their carpets too!).
In my opinion “top of the line” any appliance is usually worse than the entry model. Typically it just adds more “features” that introduce additional moving parts, circuit boards, and displays. Rarely if ever do I need these things, and there’s a real hit to reliability.
I’ve been kitting out a new house and the appliance I’ve been most satisfied by far is my Victory Twister range hood. It’s a stainless steel box with a blower, some lights, a couple wires and two rotary switches. I wish I could buy all my appliances without PCBs.
A good interface consisting of anything such as lights, screens, buzzers, chimes, etc could tell/alert you about levels or the status of the dishwasher without an app too.
In case of modern appliances, you are not the only customer/user of the product. Other customers are various advertisers that are interested in data about you. The updates provide enhancements for these other customers.
We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry. Advertising just happens to be the most obvious consumer.
IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades).
So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, this will be like my laptop."
What's not apparent to them is how good modern computing has gotten (unless they remember the 90s), or that the companies making IoT stuff have no prior experience in software, or that there are effectively no certifications, standards, or laws around IoT quality.
Not all IoT is the same. I only buy into IoT systems that I control and have zero or minimal cloud connections. Started years ago with the original X10 powerline control stuff, but as soon as the ZWave wireless mesh stuff started getting traction switched to that and never looked back. I use HomeSeer which is commercial home automation software - that will talk to just about ANY home automation standard out there. The UI is ugly as hell but its ridiculously versatile and functional. If I were to set up something now I'd just stick to stuff that can work locally with HomeKit and use HomeAssistant as the brain to replace HomeSeer. I already have HomeSeer and it works so no need to replace it, but thankfully there are alternatives like HomeKit that are capable - and free!
> I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start.
Time-delay is in fact a rather useful feature e.g.
1. I may not want to start the dishwasher at 11 PM, especially if I’m in a condo and will prevent neighbours from sleeping
2. depending on the specifics of the dishwasher & local water, I may want it to finish soon before I come home so I can quickly dry the dishes (e.g. if water is very hard)
It is super easy on all I have seen. There is button which adds either 30min or 1 hour (depending on model) to delay when I press it. That is it, press it until delay is what you want.
That did not happened to me. Not even once. Also, the one who had 30 min delay shift reset after 12 hours. Which was sufficient literally every time. Also, you can turn it on and off which resets delay to 0 too.
I mean this 100% seriously: this is super easy to configure. No reason to fiddle with wifi, phone, app nor website.
Every dishwasher I've seen has a time-delay feature. Regardless, if this is a Miele, it will be so quiet that it definitely won't prevent anyone from sleeping. And isn't the dishwasher supposed to dry the dishes itself?
I had to chuckle at that too, my dishwasher is almost too quiet, I can barely tell if it's on without listening to it closely it looking at the controls.
My wife starts work earlier than me, so goes to bed sooner, but takes a shower before bed. She often asks me to start the dishwasher after she finishes showering (So the water temp in her shower doesn't fluctuate while the dishwasher fills), and then I forget all about it.
> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons.
Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex.
> If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?
It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pressure, temperature, etc. It's no different than an EV for which you can install custom firmware to change its behavior.
> A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex.
Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser.
The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?
Tabs dispense the max does of detergent - whether its required or not. That's only good for the detergent manufacturers who get to maximize their profits overselling everyone on detergent. It's horrible for the environment - manufacturing, distribution and more importantly - wasted detergent that gets flushed down the sewer and drives up the complexity of treating wastewater.
Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.
"A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex."
Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved.
Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really needed.
>My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved
By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers.
>designers start to wedge them in just because they can
Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.
lol - few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors. Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations.
And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
>Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations.
Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you.
>And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however.
>few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors
I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU.
Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?
"If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used."
This is a circular argument - if there was a better method for banks to access customer credit worthiness, they would be using that methodology. Wait, what do you mean global economy collapsed because of subprime loans?
God created the best possible world, because if better world would be possible then god would create that world instead. What, BigBrain, you think you can suggest an improvement to God's design and millions of years of evolution? You want separate holes to eating and drinking so that a million people don't choke to death every year?
With that logic no criticism of the existing system can be made, you don't even have to engage with veracity of any of the claims made by the poster and can reject his argument wholesale.
This poster is not interested in cost savings for the manufacturer, he is interested in claims about MCU making dishwasher more efficient. With engines we have recorded MPG improvements.
What improvements have materialised for diahwasher?
>What improvements have materialised for diahwasher?
It takes a simple google search if you were interested.
A huge one is the cost savings by allowing energy efficient motors that tune across a wide range of current/temperature/torque as an appliance runs [1]. This is decades old, and requires complex feedback and algorithms extremely costly to implement without a microprocessor. It also allows motors to use less materials, which given fluctuating raw material costs, reduces price volatility. So: energy savings, less materials, lower costs.
This is such a big deal that companies like STMicroelectronics make STM32 CPUs explicitly designed for this, for dishwashers, and they are sold as such [2].
The same control ideas are used to make the heater coils more efficient, again using algorithms implemented in MCUs. This allows top performing devices to use less energy. From 1993 to 2003 advances reduced avg energy use per cycle from 2.6kWh and 10 gallons of water to 1.8 kWh/cycle (30% less energy) and 6 gallons of water (40% less water) [3]. In 2020 avg is about 4.2 gallons per cycle [4]. In 2022 it's 2.36 gal [5].
Annual energy usage for 2022 dishwashers is around 199 kWh/yr [5]. From the above papers in 2008 it was around 325 kWh/yr.
Outside of Tesla, have you ever gotten a firmware update on an appliance or car that added features or did major UX changes? Even if they could, why would they? They'd rather you buy the latest model that "supports" whatever new feature they have.
You could say the same thing about pay once, use forever software and yet updating software, adding features and fixing bugs is common and expected. Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't any differentiation between products or held back features but maybe keeping customers happy actually aligns with the goals of the company?
I don't have a smart dishwasher, but I think an API to display the current salt level and a web UI that has some space to display and comfortable configure the various settings instead of 6 incomprehensible buttons would certainly be things I'd be interested in.
I'd be interested in seeing a comparison on this. Washing dishes is a pretty mechanically limited process. I can't imagine that much improvement has been made.
Water consumption I can imagine, but power consumption? And by how much anyway?
Improvements in these appliances always feel a little like those percentages on dishwashing liquid. If I would multiple all the improvements since 1990 I think one drop of detergent will be enough for the rest of my life.
Better engineered sprayer jets, adding better sensors to determine water turbidity and other water metrics, additional sprayer arms (second-rack sprayer arms were pretty rare IME in the 90s, common today), automatic soap dispenser systems dispensing just the right amount of soap or rinse aid given on various water properties, etc.
Even today a super basic mechanical timer based washing machine probably won't work as well or as efficiently as a high end unit with various sensors and logic.
I don't doubt that, and I've considered replacing it. The lifespan of a "modern" dishwasher is about 10 years, a far cry from the 30 years that mine has run.
In the time that I've had mine, I would have had to replace a modern one about three times. I think that new ones would be more water efficient, but I do not see new ones being more efficient electrically. Mine is plumbed to hot water, so the heating elements are not used much and it dries them with blown air instead of heat.
If I am looking to reduce my electrical footprint there is much lower hanging fruit than my dishwasher. How much energy would go into the manufacturing, delivery, and installation of three dishwashers?
7-10 is pretty optimistic for most new stuff. Which is why I prioritize brands like Whirlpool that are repair friendly. Service manuals are readily available (often included inside the appliance!) and parts are readily available and cheap too. Brands like Bosch and Meile? Good luck - at least here in the US parts are a nightmare.
I love how the only people that were going to be exempted were peoples who's cars cellular modems already didn't work. How convenient.
I hope I can be buried in the cars I currently own. And if I have to buy a new one if it won't work with the cellular modem being pulled out I ain't buying it.
> on a VLAN with other white goods, outbound connections to certain domains only
...
That probably says what needs to be said about smart appliances. There's a reason that's the right choice. This same reason is the reason smart appliances are a bad idea.
Am curious: When the washer is past security updates, are you going to leave it on the VLAN? Would you do that if the washer had a camera or microphone?
> Am curious: When the washer is past security updates, are you going to leave it on the VLAN? Would you do that if the washer had a camera or microphone?
TBH I figure that this is roughly the point when the Wi-Fi chipsets can't connect to whatever the standard is at that moment in time.
The only really useful Wi-Fi feature of the white goods in my house would be within the hob and the extractor hood. These communicate over Wi-Fi so that the extraction is automatically turned on at the appropriate speed for however the hob is being used, and turned off 30 seconds after the hob stops being used.
"the Wi-Fi is useful... the dishwasher auto-doses the powder, rinse aid, salt, etc... and can let me know the levels of those."
I do appreciate your respect for the usefulness of this functionality -- I just throw my laundry in the machine, press ON and then press START, throw in a random amount of soap and 60 minutes later or so I have clean clothes.
I've had AirBnB guests that used the electric kettle to cook ramen. This is an apartment with a stove, oven and all necessary kitchen equipment.
Of course this is stupid; you put the dry ramen in a bowl, pour on boiling water, and wait a minute or two. That's what the instructions on the pack actually say. It's not necessary to boil ramen.
I suppose it technically could clean clothing too, albeit you probably can't fit very much without balling or layering stuff up too much to get it clean. A clothes washing machine is probably more efficient for this purpose.
Although for countries where laundry machines are typically in the kitchen, a theoretical hybrid machine would be interesting (if it worked well, and the dish specific stuff could fold away compactly), but in practice multi-function machines like that rarely seem to turn out well.
Okay, but how is wifi involved in this process? We've had these machines for close to 100 years, they didn't get enough time to get a working alorythm?
1) if you run HassOS (Home Assistant Operating System), getting root shell where you can run appropriate nmcli commands is unnecessary convoluted (there are two "ssh & terminal" extensions, the "official" one won't give you a shell on the host, due to "security").
The good news is, that once you do have the root shell, configuring vlans is easy, it runs standard NetworkManager.
2) if you do not run HassOS, but inside a docker on some other common home devices, they can have their footguns too.
For example, if you have Synology NAS and run HA in docker, you are going to google for blog posts how to configure vlans + bonding (spoiler: no hybrid ports, only trunk), or vlans + openswitch, or, heaven forbid, vlans + bonding + openswitch. That are going to be few evenings appropriately spent.
3) Some devices, when connecting to wifi, would connect successfully only if the device you are pairing it from is on the same wifi (i.e. you can't have your phone on your main ssid/vlan and connect the device to isolated ssid/vlan). Bosch Home Connect, I'm looking at you...
Still stuck on Ubiquiti things. It does allow wrangling with the networks and the UI is very pretty... but configuring this to disable the Ubiquiti Cloud and yet enable most features locally was a PITA.
I think in the end it's not abut utility--adding "smart" lets you dramatically bump the price. Look at smoke detectors (as an example I was thinking about this morning): the best-rated (Consumer Reports) wired smoke detector costs $31. Ten-year sealed battery models cost less. But the smart smoke detectors start at $130.
These cost another $2 in hardware and some dev (and probably certification) costs to recoup, but they also open the opportunity for subscriptions and who-knows-what-kind-of in-app purchases which can be sold to anxious-complacent-frazzled consumers with extra disposable income.
I'm not sure. Look at "smart" TVs. Their prices continue to go down. Why? They are heavily subsidized by all of the analytics they earn from the data you provide them. By lowering the price, it makes it easier to sell to more and more people. Raising the prices does not.
Not sure of the number of units sold comparing dishwashers vs TVs, so maybe there's not enough volume in dishwasher? Also, I can only imagine the analytics data from TV viewing is much more informative/beneficial than how many times someone washes dishes.
That's a good counter-example, and I agree with your suggestion that the value of the analytics probably explains the difference. (The value of smoke detector analytics is probably even lower than that of dishwashers!) So maybe we could agree that adding "smart" results in a more profitable product, whether that's because of a higher sale price, higher ongoing revenues, or both.
That best rated consumer reports detector only detects fast burning fires.
The Nest Protect, for example, has both slow burning and fast burning smoke detectors as well as carbon monoxide. Three detectors in one. They also have built sensors and perform weekly automatic self tests to ensure they will make noise/alert when needed and that the detectors are working. A non functioning sensor in a detector just provides a false sense of security. Just about every time there are deaths from house fires detectors are either missing or are non-functioning.
Speaking of non-functioning, many people disconnect detectors because the cheap ones are so hard to silence if there is a false alarm. Again with the Nest Protects you just wave at them. People are far less likely to disable something if it's not annoying.
When there is an event instead of just loudly beeping, they also speak in a clear voice what the issue is (smoke, CO, etc.) - and more importantly, which detector is going off so you know where the issue is as well. I love that for my parents who are older - clarity in a time of crises is life saving.
So yeah, at $100 (easy to find them on sale or bundled) they cost more than a $31 detector - but they also do a hell of a lot more. Having had friends/family who have had to deal with house fires in the middle of the night (very disorienting) or near death experiences with undetected carbon monoxide (it's more common that one would think!) the slight price increase of them is WELL worth it. A ridiculous pittance for the greatly increased peace of mind.
And they still work without connecting to the Internet. I would at least do it initially to configure them, especially to program in their locations so you get useful information in an emergency, then disconnect them if you are really paranoid. However I do like the alerting if there is a problem with one. It happens - sensors don't last forever and I'd rather know about a non-functioning detector and replace it rather than have a useless piece of plastic on the wall.
Also love the motion activated path light feature of them too - so perfect for moving around at night without waking others or having to fumble for a switch. Wish they had an option for brighter lights, especially for units in the hallway - or as supplemental emergency egress lighting. Would help further offset their higher cost.
But yeah, smart detectors - probably one place where there is SIGNIFICANT net benefit well worth the increased cost.
I added smart plugs flashed with Tasmota to appliances to determine that they are "done". No need for proprietary apps or to call the manufacturer, just measure the power draw.
My LG TV would not let we watch until I updated my Terms of Service. The only option was to agree or not be able to use the TV I had already purchased and paid for.
you assume everyone, me included, is complaining, and that Roku doesn’t track either. That’s the same mentality that people had about Google in the early days. There’s a need for embedded solutions, better design, lower costs, etc.
The "smart" stuff on my Sony TV is pretty damn good actually. It has all the major streaming services I use and the remote isn't half bad. It's actually taken over most of the functionality we used the Apple TV for.
Really? I bought a high end Sony Bravia with Android TV and the experience honestly sucks. It’s slow as hell, the sounds are awful, Google pushed fucking ads to the home and the UI is really not very nice looking. There are lots of apps though which is cool.
If your dishwasher Shopping don’t get caught up in the Miele brand. Wire cutter put them below almost all other brands including whirlpool Maytag and GE in terms of cleaning. Of course they still do have a good reputation for reliability.
>Miele’s cleaning performance is strong, but not quite the best we’ve found. We tested two different Classic Plus units (both installed in our office in Long Island City, New York), and they struggled a bit with the stubbornest foods, including a cheese-and-bean plate, egg, oatmeal, and burnt brownie. Miele’s model was a step behind the Bosch, Whirlpool, Maytag, and even GE dishwashers we tested. Consumer Reports (“Quick Guide: Dishwashers,” Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2021, pp. 23–25) also rates Miele just a tick below the best performers. But with most loads, most of the time, a Miele should still get everything totally clean.
Miele also started limiting the availability of parts to official Miele certified repair centres only¹, so repairability is limited too — i.e., you would have to go to an approved service company rather than do it yourself or have a local handy person do it.
1: This was reported in the news in the Netherlands, they may not be introducing this everywhere at once, but it is a worrying trend.
>Alternatively as the dishwasher clearly is on Wi-Fi already (the only way it would know there's an update)
I guess yes it might be that but consider this workflow -
First start
Ask to update software - sounds legit
OK
Now you've okayed, now we ask to connect to Wi-fi - obviously need to connect to update software which you already agreed to!
If say user testing found that more people agreed to connect to Wi-Fi as part of update software on first installation then we get the above workflow and nobody says my dishwasher won't let me start without connecting to Wi-Fi which to some people might sound more worrying. And people then say there are lots of reasons why you should take software update - what about security! Bug fixes in the dishwasher!
but all that said you are probably right, it is on wi-fi and that's how it knows, but it won't necessarily stay that way forever.
If you simply need to know when the dishwasher is on, and be alerted when then off (complete), there are simple and non-wifi solutions by monitoring the power usage on its circuit.
For example, I have CTs directly attached to my laundry circuits which I monitor to generate alerts. Helps keep the family moving along when we all have laundry queued up.
Your post missed the entire point of the frustration and arbitrates it away through an explanation that obfuscates clarity ad nauseum.
See what i did there. one sentence.
THE ISSUE PRESENTED IN THE POST: I want to use the product. I have to inconvenience my routine to use it.
This issue is pervasive in tech. It ASSUMES the idiot. Big Tech is defining what is best for the user. This is what we have bought. This post is pointing that out. From what I can tell, the Parent post here is a shill or is the typical 'doesn't happen to me tech elitist'.
That's about it. Found my login to make this comment. Logging out.
I am still completely mystified by why it's useful to be able to check your dishwasher salt or rinse aid on a phone.
When it's empty, you still have to actually fill it, so if the LED comes on just fill the tank at some point in the next 10 or so cycles and it'll do.
And when old bag or bottle is empty, buy salt on one of the next 10 or so supermarket trips. The dishwasher will not need more any time soon after a refill.
Maybe I'm missing a crucial piece of modern life, but it feels like yet more stats porn to go with all the metrics vomited into life by fitness trackers and apparently every piece of software.
I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?
Some dish washers have water sensors that vary the cycle times depending on how dirty they observe the return water. This why they warn you not to pre-rinse your dishes because you'll fool the system into a lighter washing which won't properly clean your dishes.
Modern-ish ones usually have a dirty-water-sensor; I believe it works by shining light through the water on the way out of the machine to see (roughly) how dirty it is. Clean water = cycle over, dirty water = keep going!
Is the completion of a dishwashing cycle a time-critical event in your home? Here, it can easily be a few hours between washing the dishes and unloading the washer (e.g. run the washer overnight, unload it the next morning).
It’s not time critical until someone told you it needs to be time critical i.e the manufacturer tries to bundle shitty IoT features on every damn thing because the manufacturer next door is doing it and then piles on the marketing.
No one needs an internet connected dish washer.
Just give me something I don’t need to sleep with one eye open all the time.
I don't understand the usefulness of notifications on my phone for a dishwasher. Either I am near my dishwasher and hear its acoustic signal that it has finished. Then I can decide to open it or empty it now or later. Or I am not near the dishwasher than I can't do anything about it. Then it is a completely unactionable information, i.e. noise.
Actually, I have a Bosch/Siemens dishwasher with Wifi because it is very good dishwasher, but I've never connected it to my Wifi, because I don't want to think about advanced persistent threads infilitrating my dishwasher.
Good point, but I was under pressure to buy a new one, and the options were limited due to Covid-related delays. As I live in Germany were it is very hard to find an unauthenticated Wifi-network, and there is certainly not a single one in range of my home, I could accept that risk.
Mine dumb model beeps when its done its cycle. It's a good notification for me. If I run it overnight, I don't really care at which hour it finished. Am I missing something else?
The timer in my dumb Siemens washing machine works quite well.
I can just set it to be done in <N> hours. That way I can load it in the morning and have it just about done when I come home in the evening. Works quite well. Doesn't really matter if it takes 10 minutes longer or not.
For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting a Piezoelectric Sensor, RPi, couple of resistors, and a clamping diode.
As a Linux user I know RPi pretty well but piezoelectric is something I used to light gas, resistors are something I studied at school (and things that heat), a diode... maybe, but clamping? I won't be able to put those pieces together.
I'd buy a smart plug with a http url to call to turn it on and off and make a web app running on a RPi at home to manage that plug.
Unless you're actually looking for sub-minute precision on its timing, the cycle time is pretty fixed. Dishwashers don't care about load or dirtyness, they care about the program you select.
Too much user lazyness and machine automatism make things go sideways.
Also, machines that let you open the door while it's running might result in more confusion than anything else (is the cycle just started or it is actually ending?).
I don't need to be notified when the job is complete; I press "Start" before I go to bed, and unload in the morning. I don't mind if my clothes are a bit crumpled. But machines have had a "rinse hold" function since forever; if you can't tolerate slightly-crumpled clothes, do the rinse-and-spin in the morning.
The ability to start it, and confirm it’s started is a game changer. Especially because it’s preloaded with the chemicals.
We don’t want to start it until we’re sure all the floating dishes actually got loaded. There’s a stray dish, a glass, life’s just a little chaotic getting dinner cleaned up and everyone to bed. We forget or we hit start but someone else opens it to add something. Without the act of adding soap and with two or three people adding things it’s surprisingly easy.
A lot of these are features as a single guy I found stupid. Now married with a kid they are just little enablers of greater calm.
Wouldn't a simple LED indicator have the same result? My "dumb" dishwasher has a small light it shines on the floor when it's on. Also, if I set it up and close it without actually starting it, it beeps to let me know.
In Germany it's fairly usual to have your dishwasher set in to the kitchen cabinets - you wouldn't know which cupboard is the dishwasher half the time. Having it project on to the floor means you don't need to have a screen that can't be seen while the door is closed (ours has buttons and screen on top edge, which you can't see while the door is closed.)
But after a 10hr work da bookended by 2 hrs on each side playing with my daughter and 1hr of dealing with life stuff I want to get into bed.
Beds on the second floor…I can get up and go downstairs and check the light. Or I can look at an app on my phone.
I’ll totally admit, I was incredibly anti smart appliance. I don’t want a tablet on my fridge. But done well, done quietly, they can actually put some really nice features in my life.
Washer/dryer - I can keep loads of laundry moving while working in the yard and I get an alert when the dryers done
Fridge- reminds me when it needs a new water filter and let’s me auto reorder it from Amazon. If it breaks a tech can remotely troubleshoot it and bring the right part the first time.
Dishwasher - see above. It also has the little light.
Until I was a parent. I would have laughed at all of that. And I still follow internetofshit on twitter
Someone still has to be there in person to put the dishes in the dishwasher, add the detergents, and close it. All this seems to be doing is moving the next step "Pressing the start button" further away behind more unnecessary steps (Search app store for dishwasher app, download dishwasher app, create dishwasher app account, connect dishwasher to wifi/bluetooth and pair with diswasher app, press "start wash" on dishwasher app from your bedroom and hope that whomstever loaded the dishwasher in person closed the door and added detergent)
The use cases given above are legit. Doing yard work, see the notice from machine that it is done, so I can go move to the next load. Or, close it, but not start in case I find a few extra items.
None of that is necessary, sure. But, also isn't worth vitriol from the crowd that hates them.
I always laughed at this, until I became a parent, but am now utterly convinced that there are a lot of features out there that look stupid until you are a parent
why does my fridge need to text me if the door is left open? that's ridiculous!
Well yeah...but if your teenager leaves it open, as teenagers are won't to do, how would I know if I'm in an office in another part of the house? (hypothetical, I don't have teenagers but I was one).
We (partner, me , contractor) are renovating a house right now. There is a kids bathroom upstairs. I FOUGHT and I mean fought my partner and the contractor over one feature I wanted. I won and am so happy. That feature? The whole floor is sloped towards the external wall, the whole floor (from door to door wall to wall) is a three inch high sealed tub, and there is an emergency drain with an oil filled p-trap that just dumps outside. Cost us an extra $1,000. That's less than the deductible on our home owners insurance and way less than the damage a flooded bathroom would cause. The user research here was totally in how many families (including mine) had kids accidentally flood a bathroom doing dumb stuff and ruin the space below it as well.
Features are driven by user research, or should be. Rather than just calling it dumb because it doesn't fit your use case - think about the other users who might benefit. Especially when you are looking at feature that don't make sense if people behave rationally.
Sloping to drain like that sounds interesting. I've often been curious why large locker room methods aren't used in houses. I'm assuming it is mainly aesthetics?
I would imagine speed/cost/aesthetics. The builders aren't going to think about long term repairability and few home owners would know to think about something like this or come up with a workable (and code compliant) solution.
We have had to be extremely diligent with our contractors because of the number of times/things they do where they just operate on the autopilot of what is typically done. Its human nature, but the norms in building homes to me are just wildly outdated. Wildly.
Stray dish? Put them in later when you find them. Or in the sink. I've never ever lost any sleep over this one. Somebody doesn't bring their dishes back from whereever - I'm not going to hunt for them.
Definitely user-specific though. I have a wife and two kids, and we just use the dishwasher differently. It never sits with dirty dishes, it always gets loaded up started right now. If you open it to find dishes inside, they are clean. The only benefit I'd get from wifi is a notification that it's done cleaning. Not to say your use case isn't valid, because YMMV. But plenty of people other than single guys find wifi on a dishwasher useless ;-)
Most of the smart stuff is in "settings" starting on page 64. Stuff like configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights). Notifying you when filters need changing. Keeping track of detergent reservoir levels.
Honestly those are all welcome features for sure. The only problem is they gather too much data and call home. Not to mention this particular model/brand does it, but most do.
My (non-internet connected) washing machine does this very thing. Why does an appliance need to be connected to a network to provide this functionality? So I can track it on my phone? As another comment pointed out, until these appliances can load themselves, I still need to be physically present at some point in time. An LED indicator can tell me to clean the filter or fill the cleaning reservoir, and I don't have to enter my WiFi information or download security updates.
if phone integration was the reason for it all couldn't it be done cheaper and easier over bluetooth? i think the only reason for inet connected dishwasher is stats gathering to help craft a more effective sales campaign for more dishwashers.
> configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights)
My dishwasher has a start delay function, basically the same... although if it's 'smart' I guess you could align it with things like a smart grid, highly variable rates, solar panels and battery. But that's something for the 1%.
Filters is a double-edged sword, because since it's a consumable, it's in the manufacturer's interest to give false positives for the need to replace filters, like printer ink.
Detergent reservoir levels, I don't know if that's a thing, mine has a reservoir for salt, but I have to put a detergent tablet in myself for every cycle. Would be convenient if it was built in, I guess.
That's all the talking points those manufacturers give you but my dishwasher can do all of this with 2 buttons, a few LEDs, and a wheel for program selection. It even opens by itself so I don't need to be present when it's finished.
The only thing I could think of that would be useful would be delayed starting. Often we load the dishwasher but don't want to start it right away for one reason or another... usually though a simple button to start in 1..2..3.. hours would be fine, though. And I don't think that feature is worth the tradeoffs. Especially if it requires an Internet connection to use, instead of just talking directing to my personal home server.
> what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher?
The purpose of IOT is pretty clear, although it is also pretty broad. It's a win-win for the manufacturer, but probably a ticking time bomb for the customer.
The Good:
1. Reduce production costs by converting electronic control to digital control with COTS chips.
2. Reduce development costs by reducing the cost of correcting bug-free software. The system requires updates because it assumes that it is faulty.
3. Allow additional services, such as special run cycles, custom control of run cycles, etc.
4. Collecting anonymous telemetry data to determine actual use patterns, allowing for better focus on features people actually use or may want. Potentially allows for increases in efficiency (including end user resource costs like time, water, and electricity).
The Bad:
1. Aggregating anonymous telemetry data to sell to third parties for additional profit.
* Potential for wifi chipsets to collect other data from your network and send to anywhere.
If you are going to do IoT or have wifi enabled appliances, setup a separate network for them to operate on. I find it easier to just not have them, so far.
Also, since dishwashers are "supposed to" last 10 years or more, they may force you to keep an older version of Wifi available on your network (e.g., 2.4ghz n) when all of your other devices may be on the latest version.
None of those 'good' are very good, or good at all. The buttons on the front are a few cents. On a $1000 appliance, that benefits only the manufacturer (if even them).
Being able to ship buggy software, again a benefit to the manufacturer.
More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use.
Collecting data - because we want to spend Saturday in a spreadsheet, going over our dishwasher telemetry? Oh! Maybe you mean, also only of use to the manufacturer. Not my problem; not a reason to make my device more complicated for me.
It's knowing where those buttons need to be that is potentially costly. Offloading that to an app lets you cover all bases of unknown UI desire. Of course its still a terrible argument because dishwashers don't need to also be a disco ball or whatever nonsense marketing there is to justify the obvious money grab.
"It doesn't help me personally immediately right now," is certainly a take you could have, sure.
Don't get me wrong. I'm extremely skeptical about IoT. I'm an experienced sysadmin, and that means I hate technology. There is a massive legislative need to protect the public from the damage these devices could do to customer rights, and the legislatures we've had for almost as long as I can remember are about as interested in filling that need as they were interested in protecting the worker and the right to unionize in the 19th century. Which is to say, it's more likely that the President will send the Army in to crack skulls than they'd pass a bill to do something right.
But the Digital Revolution doesn't just mean FAANG. It also means the Third Industrial Revolution. That's been going on for 35+ years. It's not new, and it's not going away. IoT will happen because it's simply too good for manufacturing not to do it even if they can't monetize their customers' data. IoT can provide real improvements just like networking computers has. There are unknown gains in efficiency, productivity, and quality of life to be gained here. The Information Age isn't NFTs and tracking cookies all the way down.
> More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use.
It's just an example, man. I'm not a dishwasher engineer. I don't know what they need to do, let alone to what they are capable of or what they could be used for but aren't because of the current structure.
It's not just about dishwashers either. All modern appliances are digital. What can you make any appliance in your home do with continuous monitoring and re-programmability?
If IoT was done responsibly, then we'd be more willing to try. The example was wifi connecting something that gave no benefit, and introduced significant risk (having a bad actor inside your wifi network). It doesn't take a scientist.
IoT could be done so much better. First, give some benefit (E.g. give you a service call when something went wrong).
And Why not use a simple VPN to the host? Encrypt the link some other way? Hell, require a password?
I've programmed IoT device firmware for clients. I put in security - they want it removed. Because it makes installation harder for their staff. No profit in it.
I'd run from any IoT device today. Until we have some legislation or accountability or even UL rating for security, there will be no security at all.
> 4. Collecting anonymous telemetry data to determine actual use patterns, allowing for better focus on features people actually use or may want. Potentially allows for increases in efficiency (including end user resource costs like time, water, and electricity).
Ok, but many times this leads to wrong conclusions. Just because a feature is not used by everyone, or used rarely, does not mean it's useless.
> Ok, but many times this leads to wrong conclusions.
Yes, but they're much more accurate than the existing systems: user surveys and focus groups. Those are both notoriously useless because people lie (intentionally or otherwise). Even so, telemetry doesn't wholly replace them. It's on top of them.
Marketing is hard, in part because the data you're working with is either (a) untimely, (b) incorrect, or (c) incomplete. User surveys and focus groups are often all three. Telemetry data is largely just incomplete. That's still a huge improvement. In the worst case, it can be used like grading a test.
> Just because a feature is not used by everyone, or used rarely, does not mean it's useless.
And thanks to a software based interface, maybe you don't need to eliminate that feature. You just don't need to continue to develop it.
Look, whether or not their market data is correct, a company that dedicates their resources in the wrong spot is reducing the value of their product to the customer. It means the product is more expensive for no reason. It means that the majority are subsidizing a feature they don't use in exchange for more development on the core functionality that they do. That's just what that means.
And in terms of probability, the truth is that you've got features on your appliances that you paid for and you will never use. Wouldn't you like your money back on those features? You might be the guy who loves the lilac perfume option in your dishwasher, but you probably aren't if only 5% of people use it. That makes it a luxury feature at best, especially because it might be another point of failure. Let those who want the luxury feature pay the cost of that luxury feature.
Tell me you've never bought an appliance or tool that has a dozen features that get in the way of what you actually want to use it for. How that one time you bought a really nice coffee maker because you want to make good coffee easily, and you ended up spending 10 minutes every morning arguing with it. So you went out and got a coffee maker whose only control is an on-off rocker switch, and you love it because it's dead simple, gives you exactly as much control as you want, and can be operated by the pre-coffee brain.
Here's one idea: sensor-based washing. I doubt anyone is currently doing this, but the idea can at least hold water (ba-dum-tss).
You'd keep the dumb maximum spray-area approach for the pre-wash & rinse cycles, but replace the main wash cycle with a "smart-nozzle" approach that uses a radar (or some other non-optical sensor) to detect surfaces and apply a directed spray.
Theoretically, that would save on energy costs/impact (heating water costs way more than running a SoC/radar), even if the overall wash quality wouldn't really be improved much in most cases. Plus... the technology would be super marketable, imagine the commercials!
My washing machine detects how much stuff is on the various racks and will adjust its time running the sprayers for each rack based on how much stuff is there and the turbidity of the water (how dirty) it is for the given levels.
So if the top rack is pretty empty or just glasses which are mostly clean, while the bottom rack is full of pots with lots of grease, it will spend more time operating the sprayers on the bottom rack than the top rack.
I wish my dishwasher could automaticly start whenver the price of electricity was low. I can manualle delay it by doing simple math in my head and forecasting prices, but it would be easier and more foolproof if I could script it with IFTTT.
Your dishwasher probably uses ~1kWh of energy per cycle. Unless you're running your dishwasher a lot, or you're in an area where the difference per kWh is really massive, you're really not saving that much money.
That's a feature I'd kinda like, but I won't rope myself into the manufacturer's ecosystem just to get it. Especially not Samsung, the maker of my current washing machine. Not that I'll ever buy another Samsung appliance, but that's a different story.
What I did instead was paste an Aqara zigbee vibration sensor to the side of the washing machine. Then a little bit of Home Assistant magic and it tells me when the washer seems to be done. In case I didn't hear the symphony it plays at the end of a cycle.
because what if it was discovered some virus survived on dishes rinsed with cold water? With smart devices an executive order could be signed that mandated all manufactures of smart dishwashers OTA update to only rinse with hot water. See? perfect.
/the real depressing and scary thing about the above is this comment having to indicate i'm being sarcastic
What reason could a dishwasher have for a firmware update? Did they not test their dishwasher? did they lock away features behind a subscription? Why would it need a security update if it wasn't internet connected?
No software is perfect when shipped. Most dishwashers have had updatable firmware for at least a decade, it just normally required a technician connecting to it with a cable.
This is probably a joke, but tbe halting problem is way overused and doesn't apply in situations where a non-Turing-complete computer is running a known (not arbitrary) program.
It can be cheaper to do things in software so in the past you may have been able to tell the water inlet "fill machine" now you have to watch a water level sensor to control a dumb solenoid valve.
From what I can see, there's only two types of processes running inside a dishwasher:
- control loops. These can (and must) be fully articulated during the design phase, can be accurately modeled using a Mealy FSM, and can be coded and verified with 100% coverage.
- input processing. These take input from various sensors inside the machine, clamp and/or process the measurements, and pass on the data to some control system. The processes can be designed to be completely stateless (or maybe with hysteresis), which means that the only verification they need is that they always output valid data, even when confronted with spurious inputs. Since it's a feed-forward process and the inputs are bounded, 100% coverage is again possible.
The only other system is the UI, and its only job is to provide valid configuration data to the master control process. As long as that part is extensively tested, the rest of the UI can crash and reboot at any time, and it won't affect the operation of the fully-tested control process.
And the UX should be a lot better on various white goods too: simple, intuitive and unobtrusive. I love my Miele dishwasher (not WiFi enabled!) but my Zanusi washer/dryer is utterly terrible in this respect.
Despite plenty of great physical abilities of the washer/dryer, it's almost ruined by a useless UX that obsessively locks one out of all sorts of perfectly legitimate transitions, meaning one has to frequently turn it off and back on to force the change of activity, adding frustration for something that could easily be handled if only they'd not crippled the device and made you wait while you cycle it.
The wifi isn't there for the firmware, it's there for the wifi functionality (Don't ask why it needs wifi functoinality, I can't answer).
But once you do have wifi functionality so you have wifi hardware, then the thing needs patching and upgrades too. Maybe some server address has changed, maybe a security fix, etc. And obviously if you have wifi hardware, it's the easy way to upgrade the software.
So the question I think isn't "Why does the firmware need to be updated at all"? It likely wouldn't, if the firmware just made the machine clean dishes. The question one should ask is, why does it have network features at all? What possible use case can exist?
Precisely. The reason it needs a firmware upgrade is that the manufacturer made the choice to make it so needlessly complicated that it ... needs a firmware upgrade.
Do you often create provably error free software? I'd love to hear more about it.
A quick google suggests the updates mostly tweak rinse times and temperature settings, presumably based on data that wasn't available before the model shipped.
I've owned a handful of dishwashers over the past 20 years and not once has one ever needed a firmware update (or stopped working, for that matter). What is so complicated about this device that it might need a firmware update? You can probably enumerate every possible state of this device across all possible inputs in an hour. What's that, they have wifi and TCP stacks and probably "apps" now? Oh, I think I see the problem.
Could be analyzing waste water and come up with ads such as "I see you're running out of milk/juice/cocaine/whatever; would you like me to order some for you?" or "Hey, your current brand of <whatever> is unhealthy/expensive/difficult-to-wash-off; I suggest <brand> instead; btw click here to order your free subscription".
I would've hoped the current shortage of chips can put an end to this and 5G perma-surveillance, but here we are ...
Edit: not to speak of "We've detected remnants of the XYZ strain of the <whatever> virus; please isolate yourself now. This message has been passed on to the ministry of health and education. Thanks for your cooperation."
In the past all software was offline. You had to get it right before you shipped it.
With 95% of work now being cloud-based, it actually seems to be getting hard to keep an engineering/product culture that can deliver right-first-time software, because most engineers, PMs, and managers have never worked in one. I've actually seen products shipped now which wouldn't work at all without an update because the software wasn't finished, and the business decided to ship anyway (to retail) giving engineers a race to get the working version before customers opened the boxes in a few weeks. So yes, it may need an update, just for fixes, because that's how we roll now apparently. It sucks.
An update to cope better with people using detergent pods of using the detergent dispenser? This excellent video [1] explains why pods do not work well and also explains a lot about how dishwashers work that I definitely did not know.
I love vids like this - as its a good thing to have an understanding of how all things around you work.
Also, There are two ltypes of dishwasher owners: Those who pre-rinse things that fgo in and those who dont.
I ALWAYS pre-rinse everything. there are times when I use the dishwasher as a dish-rack and wash things by hand and just put them into the open dish-washer to dry... I prefer this to having anything on the counters.
---
I have a set of LG washer/dryer which are wifi capable...
I have yet to find a reason to connect them, even though I have a wifi extender node plugged into the same power as the washer.
I do have "smart" lightbulbs in every socket in the house and can control them all with alexa and/or the Feit app...
I use it all the time, and like to be able to set every single light in the house to whatever color I want. So Ill often set the lights to "Firebrick" which is the most calming at night.
I never connected my TV to the wifi, I just want it to be a dumb monitor. The downside is that it takes forever to turn on as, I suspect, its trying to find a wifi to connect to.
Why does a dishwasher need internet connection? Fortunately most of my stuffs are dumb. Frig, Stove, all dumb, old and still kicking. Good. The washmachine though seems to be smart.
Smart devices are overly complex. The entire point should have been to make devices work for you, but now when you buy a ‘smart’ washing machine, it requires you 30min of setup. Downloading apps, connecting it to wifi, providing GPS location etc. why? What’s the point. We need devices that make life simpler. Straight out of the box.
Are there any regulation barriers to selling "dumb" devices in the modern market? I've made the same point about pickup trucks--the 2002 Toyota Tacoma is a far preferable vehicle than the 2022 Toyota Tacoma for many truck owners, but when I've brought that up, people have pointed out that a number of laws make it impossible to sell a clone of the old version (must have backup cameras, must have X, must have Y, etc.)
All those things mandated for cars are related to safety. Back-up cameras are required to prevent drivers from running over small children. ABS and stability control to prevent crashes. Etc. And none of them, in a simple implementation, reduce the usability of the car/truck.
No such mandates exist for home appliances. The connectivity/apps are purely a money-grab - either people like the general idea of connected devices, or the manufacturer thinks they can monetize that connectivity post-sale (or likely some combination of the two).
> All those things mandated for cars are related to safety.
I believe that the current EU mandate for cars is that they must have cellular connectivity, which is of course for calling emergency services in a crash.
I think "ostensibly for safety" is a better description of some of it.
Don't forget the "Remote-force-stop" functionality, that all new cars must have in some territories. Using that same network-connection to access the rear bumper-cam to automatically search for "interesting" license-plates is just an added bonus for LEO.
Don't you then loose the validity of the "road worthiness certificate"?
That would thus equate to operating a multi-ton unlicensed machine in public. I would expect it to be called "reckless endangerment" at least, if they catch you with disabled eCall.
I assume being a cellular transceiver it maintains communications with the tower at all times, even when not sending payload data.
This would allow the device to be tracked from cell to cell by IMEI, if this is indeed how it works.
Note that a mobile device does not need to be registered with the tower to make emergency calls (it works in a cell with no sim!) so it may not actually permit this type of tracking, but also car manufacturers might put a subscriber module in to maintain IP connectivity for additional services even if the car owner doesn't subscribe. This configuration (such as was factory installed in my 2015 BMW 4 series) does allow for carrier/tower-based location tracking.
>All those things mandated for cars are related to safety.
There really is a benefit for a Mazda MX-5 Miata to have a backup camera? It would be far more of a distraction than just swiveling your head. Not to mention the e-waste cost of all the useless components in millions of similar cars.
One size fits all solutions should be the rarest of the rare, not the norm. Tire pressure sensors? Sure - useful and most people don't think to check (heck I don't check as often as I should!). But complex crap like cameras and screens in a car the size of a go-cart? Utterly ridiculous and beyond wasteful.
Do you drive a Miata? I did for years. Rearward visibility with the top up was pretty terrible. No rear quarter windows, the rear window was tiny. Yeah, the driver should turn their head and look, just as with any car, but they don't and they back into things. As the old saying goes, "this is why we can't have nice things."
For example in the EU, the eCall 'feature' is a must since April 2018. I guess that removing it from the car afterwards entails loss of street-legality.
Outside of extremely low quality no name televisions. I don't think it's possible to buy a dumb TV anymore. TV manufacturers I found a revenue streams by including Roku or Android TV bundle in.
It is relatively easy to add a new stereo that has a screen which can display a backup camera to an old truck. It doesn't need to have been original factory equipment to be adequate. I did this for a 2003 vehicle. I have backup camera/Android Auto/CarPlay/etc. If you don't feel up to it, you can have it done for less than a grand at a really good car audio installer, and then you have the more reliable vehicle. Of course, this depends where you live and what is required.
To play devil's advocate, that's one-time setup, it's not like you have to do it every time you launch a dishwasher. I still see little value in "smart" devices but it's not like they actively make you work more for the same result. I'm more worried about everything being dependent on WiFi and your personal data.
My dad got a smart heater, for my parents holiday home. The idea is that he can check temperature, and prevent frost damage from home. Yesterday he ask: "What happens it the company that makes the App decides that they don't what to do that anymore, or they go out of business?". Well, then the smart thingy stops being smart.
Maybe we are different, but I enjoy comforts like "Schedule run for lower cost nighttime running", "Alert me, when the Finishing liquid is starting to run low, so that HomeAssitant can add it to my shopping list", "Automatically measure some values of my (drinking) water supply, and tell HomeAssistant about them". "Set a status in HomeAssistant, when a run has finished"...
Normal dishwashers solve for this with a button or knob labeled “delay”. Breaking out an app to set the dishwasher to start late songs much less convenient. Occasionally I wish I had more granularity on the delay but never have I wanted an app to do it.
I don’t know what I’d do with any of that other stuff. Does your dishwasher actually try to measure water quality? Because that seems like a really poor fit. I wouldn’t trust water quality measurements coming out of my dishwasher anyway. It’s measuring hot water which isn’t what you should be drinking, and I’d give it a 99% chance that the person who crammed those sensors in didn’t do a good job of insulating them from the heat, vibration, etc.
The point of such remote-scheduling is in my view, is that e.g. when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone, with Buttons for "Go Now", and one for "Tonight, one hour after last movement detection".
And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
> when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone
But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t want it to run yet” and I absolutely do not want HA sending me a message every time I leave asking if I meant to run the dishwasher.
> And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine.
Maybe some dishwashers do have internal heaters to reheat the water? Mine definitely is connected to the hot water supply, though. I am not aware of it containing an internal heater. Definitely some dishwashers have a heating element for drying (mine does not) but I don’t think they use those elements for heating the water.
Also, does your clothes washing machine actually heat water? That seems pointless when you already have a device intended to provide hot water to the whole house. Mine connects to the hot and cold lines. I’d be annoyed if I bought a washing machine and then realized it had a heater inside instead of using the hot water supply. The extra complexity and failure modes and wasted time to heat the water do not seem to provide any value.
> At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
Personally I don’t want “nice to haves” that requires my devices to be internet connected and have apps etc. The value is way too low for the complexity it adds. I especially don’t trust these device manufacturers to keep these systems running long term.
If you find value, though, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to buy one of those smart dishwashers.
I don't buy devices, if they need to be "on-the-internet" to function.
But If I have the choice between a dumb one, and one with the same mechanics, but also a simple SoC with a bunch of sensors and relays connected, that I can talk to with "non-vendor-products" with only a small price difference, THEN I will leave the dumb one on the shelf, and take home the one, that I can actually integrate WELL into my workflows.
I fully expect a number of these smart devices to potentially break once they stop getting service support. Or at least to have a very degraded experience. “Hey, I haven’t been able to connect to the internet to download updates in a while. Can you read this and dismiss this message literally every time you use me from now on?”
"Smart" Devices, when it comes to my buying decisions, also includes, if the vendor went out of his way to produce future e-garbage by e.g. including Broadcom wifi or something else that would needlessly impede the possibility of future enhancements/bugfixes by an enthusiast community through withholding useful driver developer documentation.
I am definitely not willing to watch over an hour of chatting about dishwashers right now. :) is there somewhere specific he discusses this? I didn’t see a relevant chapter marker on the second video and none were present on the first.
A quick search indicates that most (all?) dishwashers have a heater to bring the water up to the necessary level. But also that you should give them the hottest water you can from your plumbing for efficiency.
Dishwashers and clothes washers will usually have some amount of heating capacity to them, as they will want to at least try and maintain a certain water temperature during their cycle. The units are usually a bit insulated, but overall the water is going to lose a good bit of temperature during the cycle as chances are your dishes and clothes are nowhere near the target water temperature.
So you use the hot water line so the water is in the ballpark of the proper temperature, then use the internal heating units to hit and maintain the target temperature.
He foresaw way back in the 80-90s that corporations are going to put software on their dishwasher anyway irrespective of what people want. If his idealistic goals were to be realized by now, at least they would have full control over it.
Sure, but we're talking single-digit percentages of people who ever interface with this stuff directly. We've had full(ish) control over desktop computer operating systems for decades and 2% of people use desktop linux. Google built ChromeOS on linux and started selling laptops loaded with their proprietary services, and it eclipsed desktop linux in a couple years.
Unfortunately if his goals came to fruition the vast majority of people would be in the same place. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like free software is only a small piece of it.
If I buy a smart heater that connects to some backend using free software and the company shuts off that backend I'm sure as heck not solving that problem by editing the software and reinstalling it to do some new different thing. And I'm a professional software engineer.
Free software means that in theory you can modify and maintain the software you run on your machines to your liking (not hardware though, or backends). But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
If it uses free software, you can reprogram it to connect to your own server (or anyone else's who wants your money).
> But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them.
> You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them.
And where is this font of developers writing replacements for abandoned free software? We've had decades of GPL software. The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small.
> The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small.
Where can I go to a shop and buy, e.g., a laptop with Linux? It's practically impossible. I guess it's because the monopolies don't allow anyone to enter the market. In practice, Linux is already better for many use cases.
Huh? Linux is free. You can stick it on every laptop with just a USB stick.
I also have no idea how this is related to the fact that almost no actual consumers are taking advantage of GPL code to continue to maintain their products beyond support offered by their developers. If anything, this would be evidence that GPL software isn't a panacea since doing something as basic as installing Linux is far beyond the capacity of most consumers.
Problem: People are writing bad software with bugs and dark patterns.
Solution: Software development should be the only creative profession in the entire world with no legal protection on their work!?
It's insane to me. Absolutely insane. Copyright is not immoral. Almost nobody in this thread would be able to make any money as a software engineer if software were not allowed to make money. And yes, I've heard the arguments for how free software could kinda maybe carve out a niche of funding and keep a few passionate people employed for not quite enough money. Spare me. It's like every aerospace engineer deciding that what they're doing is immoral and they should all just be aircraft maintenance techs. It's a completely different, much less creative, and much less satisfying job (for the engineering-minded, anyway).
Of course patents are a different story, and basically are immoral under the current system. And there are clear "right to repair" and ownership rights that we also need to fight for. Can we focus on those fights instead of shaming software developers for wanting to make money on the code they write?
No, but if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open. Your car/dishwasher/washing machine/thermostat/door locks should not stop working because some brilliant small company was bad at the profit side of things and folded. They should not stop working because some large company simply got bored and decided to follow another market trend. This is why user repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of devices should be legally protected.
This even goes for older smart phones. Just because the company needs to turn a profit, doesn't mean I have the means to continually upgrade every 2 years. I love the efforts people put into things like LineageOs.
Consider a Linux phone (Librem 5 or Pinephone) instead, because those do not rely on proprietary drivers, which still can force you to throw your device away at some point.
> if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open
Totally agree! Once you start selling a product, you should be required to make provisions for your company not existing anymore. Source-code trusts that have the authority to make code public domain or provide it to stakeholders in certain situations, when it can be shown the current IP-holder is not meeting their obligations, would be a great idea. This does not interfere with the interests of active, good-faith copyright holders, except perhaps by charging them a small fee to the trust.
>User repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of devices should be legally protected.
Totally agree! That is what "right to repair" is referring to.
There are ways to solve these problems, and banning copyright on software isn't really even one of them.
I'm with you. I've become more sympathetic to Stallman's philosophy in recent years, but it's really only "freedom 1"[1] that I find potentially valuable. The other freedoms (such as 2, which effectively abolishes copyright) would destroy the industry if they were forcibly applied to all software.
The important part of freedom 2 (freely distributing patches to copyrighted software) is already allowed by existing copyright law. You own the copyright to your patches, not the company whose software you're patching.
Extending that freedom to allow distributing the end result of those patches to people who don't have a license to use the original software (as freedom 2 does) would just be another, slightly less direct way of abolishing software copyright.
> There should be a different, just way to be paid for software.
Fantasy land. Open source projects have been looking for such a way for decades now, with no luck. Copyright has so far proven to be the only practical, "just" way to make software development viable as a business.
Copyright does not in and of itself "harm" users, unless you consider having to pay for the goods you use to be "harm". The harms described in the article you linked could be mitigated by freedom 1 alone (combined with the portion of freedom 3 that's already allowed under existing law, as discussed).
Nobody is shaming devs for making/wanting to make money. We're asserting rights to control the systems that are intimate with our lives as opposed to being hamstrung by fly-by-night operations.
Free software is not against allowing people to make money. In fact, their model is that people are paid to make changes and support the free software and those changes are shared. And it's still possible to make software and get paid without sharing it.
Free software in fact depends on legal protection.
It is more about what should be open and what shouldn’t be. The core system that drives the device, probably doesn’t need to be open. The app that only make API calls to control the device should be open.
The real problem is how many of these things are going to just break? Most people probably won’t care if their smart dishwasher stops being smart. They’ll care if it stops being a dishwasher, though.
A washing machine already requires a fair amount of time spent on installation. I don't think "it doesn't work out of the box" is a good argument when talking about 200 pound appliances that have to be hooked up to your plumbing.
Bring it in. Screw hoses onto taps. Plug into electrical socket. Check level. Done. That's usually the entire process. Why would anyone want to complicate such a simple thing?
Only the absolutely lowest end student slum apartments where I live (in a very not-rich state) don't already have a washer hookup/tap. Any home a person would actually purchase would have one already, so no effort.
I am a software engineer and I love technology, but I love simple technology and when something doesn't need software, I don't add software just for the sake of having software.
But dude... How else are you gonna turn it on remotely? WOuldn't it be awesome to be able to load it, walk away for several hours then turn it on from a different room?! That feature alone is totally worth all the extra hassle.
If you have that option. Not sure if you've shopped for white goods recently, but the options without wifi are relatively few, and mostly lower end models.
We needed a new stove, I wanted one without wifi/internet connectivity. Due to the above and supply chain issues that limited availability of a lot of models, I didn't have a choice and ended up with a model with wifi/internet connectivity. I have, of course, not connected it.
Sadly, I don't think dishwashers will last 20 years any more. Since 2005, I'm on my third dishwasher. The first one lasted 9 years, the second one around 5 (with one under warranty repair).
At some point the repairs/parts cost more than what the original dishwasher is worth.
Regarding the algorithm, I'm not sure they make a huge difference anyways. FWIW, The Technology Connections channel on YouTube has a couple of pretty interesting videos on how dishwashers work and how to get the most out of them:
Buy used. A lot of the older models last a long time too, and only (rarely) need periodic wear parts replaced --- of which plenty are available aftermarket for cheap.
Supply chain issues aside, I don't think that's true. This is about Miele, none of which are lower end, and here's the first dishwasher I randomly looked at on their site, and it has no Wifi. https://www.mieleusa.com/e/built-under-dishwasher-g-7106-scu...
You still have to specifically choose a Wifi one. (Though again, I can see if availability issues might throw a wrench into that if you needed one right away.)
I'm so glad to see your post, reading this thread I thought I was the only person in the world that does this; and rather enjoy it, 10 minutes of zen-like contemplation while your hands do the work ....
Pretty sure any dishwasher on the market in the past decade uses at least a simple microcontroller, just because it's the cheapest way to achieve all their control and user interactions.
I mean it's kind of due to the fact it's connected to wifi, that it needs to update. If it had no internet-connected/smart functionality, it wouldn't need updates for security OR to correct/add some functionality (or in some cases, remove it as a "security fix").
If you want internet-connected devices so you can - and I can't imagine why - start your dishwasher remotely, then you necessarily open the door to software updates.
Also how can it know there is an update unless it's already connected to the network... I'm certain there is a way to exit this also and continue operating as it was.
Don't take this as an allowance of disrespectful design - but this post is less than genuine in it's position.
The pro move is to set up a password-protected hidden guest Wi-Fi with client isolation and use it for every IoT device that needs internet but no local access. Bonus points if you put it on an isolated VLAN but that's homelab 201.
In this case I'd say the right move is to just not buy the connected device at all. It should be cheaper and not lack any features you want anyway.
In contrast to the case of a TV, you may want to buy the smart thing and not connect it. Because since all decent TVs now are smart TVs, chasing a much worse and/or much more expensive TV to avoid smart features in 2022 is usually going to be a really expensive way of buying a really poor TV (Such as a commercial panel, computer monitor, or low end TV - all bad TVs). Then it's better to just buy the smart TV you want and plug in an external source and just not use the smart features.
But with a dishwasher there is still a wide selection of dumb dishwashers. And if we keep buying those, that will be the case tomorrow too.
> In this case I'd say the right move is to just not buy the connected device at all. It should be cheaper and not lack any features you want anyway.
I just renovated my whole kitchen, and all the appliances that had the features I wanted also had wifi connectivity. I basically had no choice but to buy them with it, other than giving up other features. I haven't, however, allowed any of them to connect to my wifi.
The impending next-generation devices that will come with their own embedded 3G/4G antennae are going to pose a whole new set of problems.
Manufacturers do already build in dead-man switches into some products, and the more that do this, the more this becomes a problem because then even disabling an antenna will not work. It would be down to requiring custom firmware for a device.
This is an area right-to-repair legislation could address and prevent this.
If disabling an antenna makes the machine fail to operate, what happens when I live in a poor service area? There's places in my house where the cell signal is unusable.
And if they let you use it if the antenna is intact (tamper sensing cover for it, maybe?) but without service, then you just need a low power RF noise generator right beside it.
Pro-tip: never connect any appliance, vehicle or device to the internet unless you really need the internet-enabled functionality. What you want is dumb devices that work reliably within their initial operating parameters and have a security air-gap.
This prevents exploitation of their crufty software, but also prevents the manufacturer to brick or otherwise use them against you with unscrupulous updates. If a software update exists, you will apply it manually if you are bothered by the specific bugs.
Never auto-update embedded software, never trust them on your network if they don't belong there, never trust their programmers to do anything but a half-ass hack, the absolute minimum required to get the product out the door, expecting they will issue updates.
The device isn't smart, it's just a big social experiment to check whether you're smart enough not to buy one. (and sadly too many people have failed, so they increased their efforts to get meaningful data by getting rid of other options. Nowadays you often can only buy "smart" devices, or you repair your old stuff)
All they do is take away more time and make once simple tasks overly complex... oh, and they break more easily than previous generations it seems. Which only makes sense.
My mother cried on the phone when she had replaced her washing machine with a "smart" one, that only made her life more complex.
She had bought the same brand for over 30 years, now she will never buy one of their machines again.
Similarly, mine does NOTHING when I push start. I have to stand there like an idiot for several seconds, straining to hear if something is going on. What a nuisance.
It would have been trivial for them to flash a light or start the countdown (it has a timer display). But no; just sits there silently for a while.
I think, the startup delay is intentional. Otherwise they would tons of complaints by people, that notice 2 seconds after pressing the "GO"-button, that they forgot to put in another plate/cup/whatEv, opened the door, despite hearing the running water, and got doused.
My very dumb, 20 year old, dishwasher is perfectly capable of cutting the water when the latch is disengaged at any point in the cycle. I through utensils that got overlooked in up to 5 or so minutes after it starts and it has never caused a problem.
My Cree wifi flood light above the door won't let me adjust the color temp if it needs an update. I can turn it off and on, but most functions won't work until it updates.
I'm glad that I have around 20 year old Bosch dishwasher. It has one button and one knob and it doesn't beep.
For home automation I sometimes would like to add a lowest quality webcam pointed towards lights to see if it has finished. But not for the dishwasher - it always takes the same time and is quick enough. It could be useful for the washing machine, but not enough for me to care.
I have a Bosch dishwasher from a few years ago. It has a few buttons for timer (which I never use), different levels of how dirty your dishes are (which I use all the time), start, and power on/off. It's simple to use, it works great and I can't think of any extra software features I would like.
Ahh, but without an Internet connection they can't use it to measure your washing habits and sell it to advertisers or foist subscriptions on you. That's a major deficit.
The most common response is likely along the lines of "we don't need our dishwashers connected to the internet, this is unnecessary, another failure mode, another invasion, etc."
The more interesting question is who, in the bowels of the manufacturer's corporate headquarters, determined that this feature added value, how was it priced, and what, if anything was done after the fact to assess whether the additional cost was justified?
Someone on the twitter thread blamed it on the nerds. It is not the nerds that come up with this crap. It's the MBA types (and marketing folks, MBA or not) that dream up this kind of nonsense.
In the near future there will be an illicit underground market for dumb devices that don't "dial home". Anybody seen to buy such devices will be ostracized as somebody having "something to hide", e.g., when and what they wash, what is in their fridge etc.
Dumb cars that are spotted on the highway without matching digital footprints will be confiscated on the spot.
596 comments
[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 325 ms ] threadMaybe the firmware is important for the dishwasher though, but it should still function without it. I imagine a dystopian future where some society fails for some reason and internet stop being reliable. So much of our technology is dependent on it to work.
It could be war, it could be solar winds or even more likely that the manufacturer goes out of business and closes down their servers.
This is just pretty bad and I think most of us can agree. Nothing will ever change though since you pretty much don't know about this until it happens to you.
They actually reposted it 8 hours ago
Just a matter of time until happens to a lot of other appliances.
There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu to start it then when? It's just asking "Do you want to do this now?" if not that is fine (the menu can be exited), but now you know to do it later.
Alternatively as the dishwasher clearly is on Wi-Fi already (the only way it would know there's an update), one can use the Miele@Home app to perform the update at a more convenient time.
I have a Miele dishwasher, it is connected to Wi-Fi (on a VLAN with other white goods, outbound connections to certain domains only). The Wi-Fi is useful... the dishwasher auto-doses the powder, rinse aid, salt, etc... and can let me know the levels of those. In addition it tells me when the cycle is done. Performs updates, etc. There's a Home Assistant integration too, but I've not done that (my VLAN setup prevented it!).
PS: If you're of the opinion that a dishwasher doesn't need to be on Wi-Fi and you wouldn't connect it... then great, that's another way not to be asked to do an update. This dishwasher isn't going to ask to connect to Wi-Fi, it's something you choose to do (something that takes a degree of determination I might add).
I can't think of a good reason to have a network-connected dishwasher. I don't think I'd ever start it remotely, as I still have to clear the table and rinse the dishes. The washer gets started when I'm done loading it. I can check detergent levels while the door is open.
Pretty much the same for all my other appliance for that matter.
I did see the twitter screenshots, but as I don't own the device myself I couldn't really judge if the GP's instructions are readily apparent to the average user.
Also, I don't disagree with you. But the OP seemingly bought such a device and connected it to their wifi. Maybe they are living in a furnished apartment with pre-configured wifi? Anyway - thankfully we are not yet in an era where ones only choice is a connected dishwasher - can still buy used, older models etc.
edit: One would hope that you can factory reset the dishwasher to make it forget the wifi information, if it has been configured by someone else.
It would be best if most machines didn't talk to us, at all. Press a button: it runs. Nothing more.
An appliance going "nope, I have one path for this" is, tbh, to be expected. A dishwasher washes dishes, and the idea that there is a secret-sauce way to tell it to do something it isn't actively presenting to you is not something a reasonable person is going to expect. It's why my dishwasher has like eight buttons on the top--it enumerates everything it can do. So if that appliance is hiding its verbs, then a reasonable person is going to assume it doesn't have any.
I don't even know what to make of that anymore. Just because it's self-deprecating doesn't make it okay.
I mean the tweet is putting the blame at the wrong people (it's a business decision after all), but I wouldn't go as far as call it "hate-inciting nonsense". You're not under attack.
I don't see it.
But there are miele versions with custom programmable cycles for things like sterilizing labware, etc, where I could see a web page interface much easier to use than the buttons or screen on the device.
There's about a dozen settings on the washer's wash-cycle dial, and two rows of buttons. I don't know what they're all for. It's nuts - there must be about 40 combinations.
Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.
But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.
Anecdata: In my wive's house, we have a Miele wasching machine from the year 2000. Its been used daily. It is as good as on the day it was purchased - quiet, and does not vibrate even when spinning at its max 1600 rpm. Its pretty amazing.
I believe when it was last cleaned they did install new firmware -- though to be entirely hoenest, I doubt a lot of people really know or care how efficient their wasching machines are -- water is way too cheap.
The dishes all need to be totally clean, every time, or it's useless to me.
That said, even the Bosch needed a new heat pump after 3 years which was an adventure in unreasonably complex disassembly.
I rinse things pretty well beforehand and use quick wash and it works well.
Overall I'm really happy with this machine though; worth the pretty penny it costs.
Seriously, you too can save a bunch of electricity and wasted time by pre-washing stuff before putting it in the dishwasher.
I do agree that it sounds like satire, though.
> There is no need to rinse items under running water!
Dishwashers already pre-wash with an initial rinse cycle, the whole point is that they do the washing for you. It's also a whole lot more efficient in terms of water waste.
The problem is when you don't give that first cycle any powder to work with, ie. if you're using pods.
That is really interesting, as I do use pods. I need to look into this more.
More generally, I have had a lot more success with not needing to re-wash things if I rinse before hand (but I don't have a miele).
I believe the real trick is not to overfill the machine with dishes, and ensure your dishes are arranged properly.
This. Filling a dishwasher is an art of binpacking in itself. I'm pretty satisfied by my Bosch one, unless it is just a1-2 cycle before asking for the cleaning cycle, 95% of the times everything come up perfectly clean, even with the "eco" program. When something comes out dirty (if everything was properly placed), usually it will nag you to clean the dishwasher on the next cycle or the other.
Some people put the dirtiest dishes in the history of humanity in their washer and then complain it doesn’t clean very well. A quick rinse with water to get the chunks, or the really caked on stuff off works wonders.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
- Don't use pods
- Fill the main and prewash cups every time. The prewash is intended to be used every time, not just when the dishes are exceptionally dirty.
- Run the hot water in the attached sink to full heat to ensure the washer gets filled with hot water
As an aside: Dawn Powerwash is flat out amazing in general, especially for really crusty/baked on stuff. Spray some on, come back in 15 minutes and it will more than likely wipe right off - if it hasn't dissolved whatever was crusted on and ran off already. If you haven't tried it and it's available in your area give it a try! Amazing degreaser. Works on laundry with grease stains, carpet, oil stains on the driveway (mop up with kitty litter/towels; don't wash down the street!) and all kinds of other non-kitchen uses too.
My parents had a GE dishwasher that auto dosed a liquid paste dishwashing detergent. It worked great, only dispensing what the dishwasher sensed the dirt load called for. For some reason my mom hated it and they replaced that dishwasher with one that they now use pods with. Sigh - I don't think she liked the feeling of not being in control.
We humans can be so annoying sometimes.
EDIT: that GE also did it without requiring a wifi connection or firmware updates :p
The big one that drives me nuts on new cars are all the auto start/stop at idle systems. They eat car batteries and starters (increase wear from oil starvation on startup too - consumer car engines are not positively lubricated; pressure has to pump back up every time the engine starts) and there is no way to disable them other than pushing a button every time you start your car (or hacking around with the wiring), but I'm sure they are critical in obtaining higher gas milage requirements so expect them to proliferate. It's crap that happens when you focus on one metric - gas milage - to the exclusion of "the big picture" such as total carbon footprint over the life of the car including the manufacturing and replacement costs/environmental impact of replacing prematurely worn out parts from "energy efficient" design decisions.
The only time it ever fails is when something blocks a rotor and half a tray doesn't get any water on the underside.
But I don't think spraying more, hotter water at the clean half will help that.
Or it is treated by the same algorithm like all the other cleaning powders, which is: "mix with water then spray through nozzles". Strangly enough, this has worked great for decades without firmware updates. For the longest time it even worked without firmware.
If I want more, I put in 2 tabs.
If I want none, I put in no tab.
If I want my dishes to smell like soup, I put in a buillon cube. (Not recommended by whoever built the Dishwasher)
Ah, fantastic. "Now that we have updated the firmware, we have determined that you need the new proprietary cleaning powder. For your convenience, the dishwasher is disabled until you supply the proper cleaning powder."
My dishwasher you just dump any boxed powder in and I can use any brand I want. I'm assuming that for a machine this expensive and geared at long-term usage Miele would have the same capabilities, and it's not like a Keurig thing where the user is forced to use individual pods.
But if that's the case then I'm not sure how this would work unless the user enters a config setting or something for what soap they're commonly using. Water hardness the washer could measure itself, I guess.
Edit: another commenter below (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147979) links to the manual (https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1...), which answers most of these questions.
No.
But they do have an auto-dosing capability on some models that take a disk and dispense the right amount of powder for the given wash.
Which? reviewed this and concluded it's a gimmick: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/09/is-this-miele-dishwashe... . I agree with this verdict.
The washing machine auto-dosing though... that isn't as bad, being more cost-efficient overall.
My take on it all: Miele dishwashers are so-so... their washing machines and fridges excellent, the ovens above average, the hobs exceptional, the hoods well made but over-priced.
Another gimmick that machine has, it's auto-opening at the end of the cycle in order to vent off steam.
I had many different dishwashers over the years, but Miele one is so far the best I ever had
I don't think there's a terribly strong incentive for Miele to actively break their customers' deployed machines, since those customers might buy a Bosch next time, but there isn't a terribly strong incentive for them to improve them either.
There is a strong incentive for Miele to find ways to sell their customers' personal information, for example to insurance companies, collection agencies, or police forces, and this is functionality that can be added later in a firmware update.
Better to leave update functionality under the control of the people who are most directly affected by it: the users.
(Edit: With that said, I am reluctant to leave the dishwasher on when I'm not present for the first cycle just because of the risk of something going wrong that wasn't adequately checked for.)
I don't think that post was necessarily directed at Miele, but at designers designing for design sake in general.
> come running to unload it when it's done?
You don't? You must be one of those people that never unloads the dishwasher until you need something that's in it? weirdo! /s
Load in the evening, unload in the morning.
Apps used: 0.
Would be useful if the machine could select and load the washing itself from the basket, I'd use that app.
If it has a screen then surely it's possible to show its current status.
Or, and bear with me because this is a really crazy idea... how about a single LED to show it's busy?
And check out the new Ridiculous wash cycle!
The jokes practically write themselves.
This is an important point that owners[1] sometimes miss.
For example, if the owner makes a deal to partner with the maker of a particular detergent tab, the owner could create a new feature that only works with those tabs and not regular powder detergent.
1: Owner: the person who owns the firmware being sent over WiFi.
The only UI a dishwasher needs is "wash" and "dishes in here are still clean don't put in dirty dishes yet." I've yet to see a dishwasher do the latter with the necessary nuance.
As long as you unload it instead of fishing a single item out this works pretty well for telling the clean state.
This is the challenge. Allow for partial unload without displaying "ready for dirty dish load."
Ultimately I think it has to be performed by a manually operated sign, which can easily get out of sync with the dishwasher state.
https://www.amazon.com/Dishwasher-Indicator-Dishwashers-Home...
First of all, if you're a UX designer sorry for being a little snarky to you. A fair amount of it is probably unfair.
Second, maybe you can shed some light on why that kind of UX updates happen. As somebody else wrote in another comment "designers designing for design sake". Maybe it's not.
Third, maybe you can enlighten us developers about the circumstances when designers think that developers develop for development sake. I'm sure it happens.
Do never connect things to any network - and especially the internet - if it is not required for operation.
What worries are people which blindly request "more digitalization". We need resilience, not digitalization! Once a unnamed person complained about the fact the the Boeing 747-400 still gets flight data updates with a floppy. They argued it should use WiFi and central updates from a server and so on. NOT! The floppy allows control, save operation and flexible updates. Don't even add an USB-Port, this just allows someone to roast the electronics with a cheap USB-Gadget.
Just let programmers program more code doesn't make good programs. Actually it is vice versa.
Seriously I don’t understand the need at all to have your kitchen be connected to wifi at all. Not everything needs to be quantified, unless you use measuring cups for cooking.
Second I can’t trust manufacturers to rush something out the door to “fix it in post”
That said while I do disagree with the above consumers, I don't care about remote control but I would quite like remote status updates from various appliances (is the door locked, is the washing cycle finished, has the fridge been left open, etc.)
I suspect the only value most consumers see in these features is lower retail pricing.
Real-world examples:
(1) Download firmware, stick it on a USB drive, put USB drive in device, go through arcane menus or button press sequence to do an update. I have two devices that work this way, an aftermarket car stereo Bluetooth adapter and a (musical) keyboard.
(2) Install some app (and maybe a driver) on a Windows computer, connect device to computer, and have the app push the firmware to the device. I have an old Garmin GPS watch that does it this way. (Which is extra annoying because the watch has an Android companion app which communicates with the watch over Bluetooth, and it can tell you an update is available but can't apply it.)
The buzzwords I never hear on HN is Digital Twin. It's usually in a HVAC or like smart building context. It's a buzzword for a simple idea, but the makers of the Miele AC app probably should have thought a little harder about tracking system state, maybe read a little of the literature.
My experience with "high end" appliances in general (Bosch, Miele, Wolf, Subzero) is that it's a tax on "rich people". They're not better than top-line LG, etc.
Theres more than initial acquisition cost or the looks of the appliance that's worth considering when purchasing!
Miele had a definite edge on build quality, that means that services are fewer and farther between than with other brands given the same amount of use.
The joke was that if you wanted to armor plate your car you could do so with the side panels of Miele washing machines. Not too far from the truth, they were also much heavier than competitor gear. But those days are - as far as I can tell - over.
Maybe, maybe not. But a lot of those companies haven’t existed for longer than my latest washer.
You buy those brands because you know exactly what you get. Basically guaranteed performance for the next 10 years, and very likely after.
I do wish they didn’t jump on the app bandwagon, but they really have no choice since the rabble wants it. I swear people will pick an appliance with an app simply so they don’t have to press the preheat button on their oven. And you can do it from the couch! Never mind that you don’t ever do that…
No, you won't. Just because you had an appliance that lasted 20 years before doesn't mean you are going to get the same today (you aren't). Energy efficiency standards have affected all manufacturers. Complexity leads to unreliability over time - all manufacturers are affected. Some will still be better than the rest, but if you aren't prioritizing manufacturers who are repair friendly you are going to either be spending multiples of the original cost of your appliance over time, or just flat out replacing them more often.
Or just fix that 20 year old appliance you already have when it breaks (almost always the best answer vs. buying new - with just about anything!)
Absolutely. The other day a colleague described the fact that her washing mashine's app tells her when the program is finished as an essential, must-have feature. I understand that it's useful and nice to have but if you're wearing an Apple Watch anyway, as she does, just set a timer. It's what I do.
is bosch really a "high-end" appliances company? I always considered it mid-range company, producing appliances for the middle-class.
Love my Breville toaster oven though - thing is so stinking versatile and by far the best of any I have ever used. We use it as an oven far more than as a toaster. Perfect for heating/baking most stuff without heating up the entire house like the regular oven does. We have the one that also has the air fry mode - use that mode all the time to cook vegetables that are delicious and a lot healthier too. Did I mention we really love our Breville toaster oven? And to think I originally chose it because it was the only one I could find that had a stinking light inside?
Even if you opened the door it would still do all 6 super loud beeps. It became a race to get there with one second left to stop it.
Also every press of any key would emit a loud beep. Stupid.
So I opened it up and snipped the stupid buzzer a while back.
It's so much nicer to have a silent microwave now.
please, rich people don't even notice the cost of these pieces of equipment. the ones that might feel the pinch are the ones punch above their weight class to give of the look the are better off than they are. not much different from classes of cars that look like you make money, but every time you take them to the dealership, minimum $800.
if that's a tax on rich people, then they aren't very rich.
All that said, I do not own a Miele dishwasher because it's benefits are not worth the high cost to me, however I have severe allergies and while I hated to pay for it, a Miele vacuum has ruined me for all other vacuums.
*Not a Miele salesman, just love very clean carpets. I'd be thrilled to learn about a cheaper alternative that can remove hair/dander/dust and etc as well from carpets as a Miele can, but so far nothing has come close.
And if you have hard surface floors there is nothing faster than pulling out a lightweight flexible hose with a floor brush and running the vac over it. Faster than sweeping and again doesn't stir up dust/dander/hair like sweeping does.
I will never own a house without a central vac. And if you are really OCD about your carpet cleaning there are Wet/Dry central vac systems that have built in carpet cleaners. Will automatically discharge the waste water to the sewer. A bit pricy and exotic but I have a few friends who if they owned such a system would probably use them weekly (and mold the heck out of their carpets too!).
I’ve been kitting out a new house and the appliance I’ve been most satisfied by far is my Victory Twister range hood. It’s a stainless steel box with a blower, some lights, a couple wires and two rotary switches. I wish I could buy all my appliances without PCBs.
Well, kind of what I expect when I buy a cheap dishwasher.
(that's sarcasm)
The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?
IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades).
So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, this will be like my laptop."
What's not apparent to them is how good modern computing has gotten (unless they remember the 90s), or that the companies making IoT stuff have no prior experience in software, or that there are effectively no certifications, standards, or laws around IoT quality.
Tracking is not even the most harmful aspect.
Tracking is a requirement for targeted psychological manipulation (AKA advertisement) including voter manipulation like Cambridge Analytica did.
Time-delay is in fact a rather useful feature e.g.
1. I may not want to start the dishwasher at 11 PM, especially if I’m in a condo and will prevent neighbours from sleeping
2. depending on the specifics of the dishwasher & local water, I may want it to finish soon before I come home so I can quickly dry the dishes (e.g. if water is very hard)
yes and then it accelerates and you go over the time you wanted and you have to wait for a whole 24:00 loop to reach the correct time again
I mean this 100% seriously: this is super easy to configure. No reason to fiddle with wifi, phone, app nor website.
My wife starts work earlier than me, so goes to bed sooner, but takes a shower before bed. She often asks me to start the dishwasher after she finishes showering (So the water temp in her shower doesn't fluctuate while the dishwasher fills), and then I forget all about it.
I need to just hit that Delay button.
Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex.
> If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?
It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pressure, temperature, etc. It's no different than an EV for which you can install custom firmware to change its behavior.
I don’t need things to change after that. As long as the dishes keep coming out clean all is well in the world.
Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser.
The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have already successfully marketed a tablet of detergent that doesn't conform to the design of the dishwasher and thus degrades the wash quality, what makes you think a firmware update from the manufacturer couldn't, say, improve the energy efficiency while degrading the overall washing quality?
Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.
Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved.
Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really needed.
By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers.
>designers start to wedge them in just because they can
Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.
And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you.
>And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however.
>few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors
I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU.
Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?
This is a circular argument - if there was a better method for banks to access customer credit worthiness, they would be using that methodology. Wait, what do you mean global economy collapsed because of subprime loans?
God created the best possible world, because if better world would be possible then god would create that world instead. What, BigBrain, you think you can suggest an improvement to God's design and millions of years of evolution? You want separate holes to eating and drinking so that a million people don't choke to death every year?
With that logic no criticism of the existing system can be made, you don't even have to engage with veracity of any of the claims made by the poster and can reject his argument wholesale.
This poster is not interested in cost savings for the manufacturer, he is interested in claims about MCU making dishwasher more efficient. With engines we have recorded MPG improvements.
What improvements have materialised for diahwasher?
It takes a simple google search if you were interested.
A huge one is the cost savings by allowing energy efficient motors that tune across a wide range of current/temperature/torque as an appliance runs [1]. This is decades old, and requires complex feedback and algorithms extremely costly to implement without a microprocessor. It also allows motors to use less materials, which given fluctuating raw material costs, reduces price volatility. So: energy savings, less materials, lower costs.
This is such a big deal that companies like STMicroelectronics make STM32 CPUs explicitly designed for this, for dishwashers, and they are sold as such [2].
The same control ideas are used to make the heater coils more efficient, again using algorithms implemented in MCUs. This allows top performing devices to use less energy. From 1993 to 2003 advances reduced avg energy use per cycle from 2.6kWh and 10 gallons of water to 1.8 kWh/cycle (30% less energy) and 6 gallons of water (40% less water) [3]. In 2020 avg is about 4.2 gallons per cycle [4]. In 2022 it's 2.36 gal [5].
Annual energy usage for 2022 dishwashers is around 199 kWh/yr [5]. From the above papers in 2008 it was around 325 kWh/yr.
This took < 5 minutes to find using google.
[1] https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/motion-systems...
[2] https://www.st.com/en/applications/home-and-professional-app...
[3] https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_1...
[4] https://prudentreviews.com/how-much-water-does-a-dishwasher-...
[5] https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-dishw...
Improvements in these appliances always feel a little like those percentages on dishwashing liquid. If I would multiple all the improvements since 1990 I think one drop of detergent will be enough for the rest of my life.
Even today a super basic mechanical timer based washing machine probably won't work as well or as efficiently as a high end unit with various sensors and logic.
In the time that I've had mine, I would have had to replace a modern one about three times. I think that new ones would be more water efficient, but I do not see new ones being more efficient electrically. Mine is plumbed to hot water, so the heating elements are not used much and it dries them with blown air instead of heat.
If I am looking to reduce my electrical footprint there is much lower hanging fruit than my dishwasher. How much energy would go into the manufacturing, delivery, and installation of three dishwashers?
Nobody wants to update the firmware of their dishwasher! (or anything, really)
I'm sure one can think of "benefits" to this, but as this incident shows, the annoyance far, far outweighs any possible benefit.
This is really getting out of hand. "Right to repair" should include "right to dumb down".
Yes! Especially with cars - Toyota backed down but they are full of crap; they fully intended to do it until people objected: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc
I love how the only people that were going to be exempted were peoples who's cars cellular modems already didn't work. How convenient.
I hope I can be buried in the cars I currently own. And if I have to buy a new one if it won't work with the cellular modem being pulled out I ain't buying it.
...
That probably says what needs to be said about smart appliances. There's a reason that's the right choice. This same reason is the reason smart appliances are a bad idea.
Am curious: When the washer is past security updates, are you going to leave it on the VLAN? Would you do that if the washer had a camera or microphone?
TBH I figure that this is roughly the point when the Wi-Fi chipsets can't connect to whatever the standard is at that moment in time.
The only really useful Wi-Fi feature of the white goods in my house would be within the hob and the extractor hood. These communicate over Wi-Fi so that the extraction is automatically turned on at the appropriate speed for however the hob is being used, and turned off 30 seconds after the hob stops being used.
I do appreciate your respect for the usefulness of this functionality -- I just throw my laundry in the machine, press ON and then press START, throw in a random amount of soap and 60 minutes later or so I have clean clothes.
Into the dishwasher?
Ever seen someone use the coffe-maker to cook instant ramen?
Of course this is stupid; you put the dry ramen in a bowl, pour on boiling water, and wait a minute or two. That's what the instructions on the pack actually say. It's not necessary to boil ramen.
Although for countries where laundry machines are typically in the kitchen, a theoretical hybrid machine would be interesting (if it worked well, and the dish specific stuff could fold away compactly), but in practice multi-function machines like that rarely seem to turn out well.
Can't you have the machine running HA on two vlans or route with your router?
1) if you run HassOS (Home Assistant Operating System), getting root shell where you can run appropriate nmcli commands is unnecessary convoluted (there are two "ssh & terminal" extensions, the "official" one won't give you a shell on the host, due to "security").
The good news is, that once you do have the root shell, configuring vlans is easy, it runs standard NetworkManager.
2) if you do not run HassOS, but inside a docker on some other common home devices, they can have their footguns too.
For example, if you have Synology NAS and run HA in docker, you are going to google for blog posts how to configure vlans + bonding (spoiler: no hybrid ports, only trunk), or vlans + openswitch, or, heaven forbid, vlans + bonding + openswitch. That are going to be few evenings appropriately spent.
3) Some devices, when connecting to wifi, would connect successfully only if the device you are pairing it from is on the same wifi (i.e. you can't have your phone on your main ssid/vlan and connect the device to isolated ssid/vlan). Bosch Home Connect, I'm looking at you...
This should merit a post all by itself.
These cost another $2 in hardware and some dev (and probably certification) costs to recoup, but they also open the opportunity for subscriptions and who-knows-what-kind-of in-app purchases which can be sold to anxious-complacent-frazzled consumers with extra disposable income.
Not sure of the number of units sold comparing dishwashers vs TVs, so maybe there's not enough volume in dishwasher? Also, I can only imagine the analytics data from TV viewing is much more informative/beneficial than how many times someone washes dishes.
The Nest Protect, for example, has both slow burning and fast burning smoke detectors as well as carbon monoxide. Three detectors in one. They also have built sensors and perform weekly automatic self tests to ensure they will make noise/alert when needed and that the detectors are working. A non functioning sensor in a detector just provides a false sense of security. Just about every time there are deaths from house fires detectors are either missing or are non-functioning.
Speaking of non-functioning, many people disconnect detectors because the cheap ones are so hard to silence if there is a false alarm. Again with the Nest Protects you just wave at them. People are far less likely to disable something if it's not annoying.
When there is an event instead of just loudly beeping, they also speak in a clear voice what the issue is (smoke, CO, etc.) - and more importantly, which detector is going off so you know where the issue is as well. I love that for my parents who are older - clarity in a time of crises is life saving.
So yeah, at $100 (easy to find them on sale or bundled) they cost more than a $31 detector - but they also do a hell of a lot more. Having had friends/family who have had to deal with house fires in the middle of the night (very disorienting) or near death experiences with undetected carbon monoxide (it's more common that one would think!) the slight price increase of them is WELL worth it. A ridiculous pittance for the greatly increased peace of mind.
And they still work without connecting to the Internet. I would at least do it initially to configure them, especially to program in their locations so you get useful information in an emergency, then disconnect them if you are really paranoid. However I do like the alerting if there is a problem with one. It happens - sensors don't last forever and I'd rather know about a non-functioning detector and replace it rather than have a useless piece of plastic on the wall.
Also love the motion activated path light feature of them too - so perfect for moving around at night without waking others or having to fumble for a switch. Wish they had an option for brighter lights, especially for units in the hallway - or as supplemental emergency egress lighting. Would help further offset their higher cost.
But yeah, smart detectors - probably one place where there is SIGNIFICANT net benefit well worth the increased cost.
Honestly I'm amazed that so many people actually connect their "smart" TVs to the Internet. No way in hell!
The current morass of advertising chicanery continues to exist because people are willing to trade away their privacy for convenience.
If you know something sucks but continue to do it because it's convenient then it's beyond disingenuous to keep complaining about it.
"Doctor it hurts when I do this" and all that :p
We got the TV mainly because the picture quality was much better than the others they had at Costco.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
>Miele’s cleaning performance is strong, but not quite the best we’ve found. We tested two different Classic Plus units (both installed in our office in Long Island City, New York), and they struggled a bit with the stubbornest foods, including a cheese-and-bean plate, egg, oatmeal, and burnt brownie. Miele’s model was a step behind the Bosch, Whirlpool, Maytag, and even GE dishwashers we tested. Consumer Reports (“Quick Guide: Dishwashers,” Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2021, pp. 23–25) also rates Miele just a tick below the best performers. But with most loads, most of the time, a Miele should still get everything totally clean.
1: This was reported in the news in the Netherlands, they may not be introducing this everywhere at once, but it is a worrying trend.
I guess yes it might be that but consider this workflow -
First start Ask to update software - sounds legit OK Now you've okayed, now we ask to connect to Wi-fi - obviously need to connect to update software which you already agreed to!
If say user testing found that more people agreed to connect to Wi-Fi as part of update software on first installation then we get the above workflow and nobody says my dishwasher won't let me start without connecting to Wi-Fi which to some people might sound more worrying. And people then say there are lots of reasons why you should take software update - what about security! Bug fixes in the dishwasher!
but all that said you are probably right, it is on wi-fi and that's how it knows, but it won't necessarily stay that way forever.
For example, I have CTs directly attached to my laundry circuits which I monitor to generate alerts. Helps keep the family moving along when we all have laundry queued up.
See what i did there. one sentence.
THE ISSUE PRESENTED IN THE POST: I want to use the product. I have to inconvenience my routine to use it.
This issue is pervasive in tech. It ASSUMES the idiot. Big Tech is defining what is best for the user. This is what we have bought. This post is pointing that out. From what I can tell, the Parent post here is a shill or is the typical 'doesn't happen to me tech elitist'.
That's about it. Found my login to make this comment. Logging out.
When it's empty, you still have to actually fill it, so if the LED comes on just fill the tank at some point in the next 10 or so cycles and it'll do.
And when old bag or bottle is empty, buy salt on one of the next 10 or so supermarket trips. The dishwasher will not need more any time soon after a refill.
Maybe I'm missing a crucial piece of modern life, but it feels like yet more stats porn to go with all the metrics vomited into life by fitness trackers and apparently every piece of software.
Why is that? what diagnostics are it running to tell if it needs to run longer?
I thought they ran by timers, in which case cycle times are...cycle times.
Seems fancy but nonsense.
It needs to heat until the desired temperature is achieved. This will take more time in colder weather.
No one needs an internet connected dish washer.
Just give me something I don’t need to sleep with one eye open all the time.
Actually, I have a Bosch/Siemens dishwasher with Wifi because it is very good dishwasher, but I've never connected it to my Wifi, because I don't want to think about advanced persistent threads infilitrating my dishwasher.
As a Linux user I know RPi pretty well but piezoelectric is something I used to light gas, resistors are something I studied at school (and things that heat), a diode... maybe, but clamping? I won't be able to put those pieces together.
I'd buy a smart plug with a http url to call to turn it on and off and make a web app running on a RPi at home to manage that plug.
Unless you're actually looking for sub-minute precision on its timing, the cycle time is pretty fixed. Dishwashers don't care about load or dirtyness, they care about the program you select.
Too much user lazyness and machine automatism make things go sideways.
Also, machines that let you open the door while it's running might result in more confusion than anything else (is the cycle just started or it is actually ending?).
The ability to start it, and confirm it’s started is a game changer. Especially because it’s preloaded with the chemicals.
We don’t want to start it until we’re sure all the floating dishes actually got loaded. There’s a stray dish, a glass, life’s just a little chaotic getting dinner cleaned up and everyone to bed. We forget or we hit start but someone else opens it to add something. Without the act of adding soap and with two or three people adding things it’s surprisingly easy.
A lot of these are features as a single guy I found stupid. Now married with a kid they are just little enablers of greater calm.
But after a 10hr work da bookended by 2 hrs on each side playing with my daughter and 1hr of dealing with life stuff I want to get into bed.
Beds on the second floor…I can get up and go downstairs and check the light. Or I can look at an app on my phone.
I’ll totally admit, I was incredibly anti smart appliance. I don’t want a tablet on my fridge. But done well, done quietly, they can actually put some really nice features in my life.
Washer/dryer - I can keep loads of laundry moving while working in the yard and I get an alert when the dryers done
Fridge- reminds me when it needs a new water filter and let’s me auto reorder it from Amazon. If it breaks a tech can remotely troubleshoot it and bring the right part the first time.
Dishwasher - see above. It also has the little light.
Until I was a parent. I would have laughed at all of that. And I still follow internetofshit on twitter
None of that is necessary, sure. But, also isn't worth vitriol from the crowd that hates them.
why does my fridge need to text me if the door is left open? that's ridiculous!
Well yeah...but if your teenager leaves it open, as teenagers are won't to do, how would I know if I'm in an office in another part of the house? (hypothetical, I don't have teenagers but I was one).
We (partner, me , contractor) are renovating a house right now. There is a kids bathroom upstairs. I FOUGHT and I mean fought my partner and the contractor over one feature I wanted. I won and am so happy. That feature? The whole floor is sloped towards the external wall, the whole floor (from door to door wall to wall) is a three inch high sealed tub, and there is an emergency drain with an oil filled p-trap that just dumps outside. Cost us an extra $1,000. That's less than the deductible on our home owners insurance and way less than the damage a flooded bathroom would cause. The user research here was totally in how many families (including mine) had kids accidentally flood a bathroom doing dumb stuff and ruin the space below it as well.
Features are driven by user research, or should be. Rather than just calling it dumb because it doesn't fit your use case - think about the other users who might benefit. Especially when you are looking at feature that don't make sense if people behave rationally.
We have had to be extremely diligent with our contractors because of the number of times/things they do where they just operate on the autopilot of what is typically done. Its human nature, but the norms in building homes to me are just wildly outdated. Wildly.
The manual is here: https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1...
Most of the smart stuff is in "settings" starting on page 64. Stuff like configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights). Notifying you when filters need changing. Keeping track of detergent reservoir levels.
My dishwasher has a start delay function, basically the same... although if it's 'smart' I guess you could align it with things like a smart grid, highly variable rates, solar panels and battery. But that's something for the 1%.
Filters is a double-edged sword, because since it's a consumable, it's in the manufacturer's interest to give false positives for the need to replace filters, like printer ink.
Detergent reservoir levels, I don't know if that's a thing, mine has a reservoir for salt, but I have to put a detergent tablet in myself for every cycle. Would be convenient if it was built in, I guess.
The purpose of IOT is pretty clear, although it is also pretty broad. It's a win-win for the manufacturer, but probably a ticking time bomb for the customer.
The Good:
1. Reduce production costs by converting electronic control to digital control with COTS chips.
2. Reduce development costs by reducing the cost of correcting bug-free software. The system requires updates because it assumes that it is faulty.
3. Allow additional services, such as special run cycles, custom control of run cycles, etc.
4. Collecting anonymous telemetry data to determine actual use patterns, allowing for better focus on features people actually use or may want. Potentially allows for increases in efficiency (including end user resource costs like time, water, and electricity).
The Bad:
1. Aggregating anonymous telemetry data to sell to third parties for additional profit.
2. Facilitating planned obsolescence (software EOL = appliance EOL).
3. Denial of right-to-repair (John Deere).
4. Facilitating vendor lock-in.
5. Collecting non-anonymous telemetry data used for targeted advertising.
* Potential for wifi chipsets to collect other data from your network and send to anywhere.
If you are going to do IoT or have wifi enabled appliances, setup a separate network for them to operate on. I find it easier to just not have them, so far.
Being able to ship buggy software, again a benefit to the manufacturer.
More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use.
Collecting data - because we want to spend Saturday in a spreadsheet, going over our dishwasher telemetry? Oh! Maybe you mean, also only of use to the manufacturer. Not my problem; not a reason to make my device more complicated for me.
> The buttons on the front are a few cents.
It's knowing where those buttons need to be that is potentially costly. Offloading that to an app lets you cover all bases of unknown UI desire. Of course its still a terrible argument because dishwashers don't need to also be a disco ball or whatever nonsense marketing there is to justify the obvious money grab.
Don't get me wrong. I'm extremely skeptical about IoT. I'm an experienced sysadmin, and that means I hate technology. There is a massive legislative need to protect the public from the damage these devices could do to customer rights, and the legislatures we've had for almost as long as I can remember are about as interested in filling that need as they were interested in protecting the worker and the right to unionize in the 19th century. Which is to say, it's more likely that the President will send the Army in to crack skulls than they'd pass a bill to do something right.
But the Digital Revolution doesn't just mean FAANG. It also means the Third Industrial Revolution. That's been going on for 35+ years. It's not new, and it's not going away. IoT will happen because it's simply too good for manufacturing not to do it even if they can't monetize their customers' data. IoT can provide real improvements just like networking computers has. There are unknown gains in efficiency, productivity, and quality of life to be gained here. The Information Age isn't NFTs and tracking cookies all the way down.
> More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use.
It's just an example, man. I'm not a dishwasher engineer. I don't know what they need to do, let alone to what they are capable of or what they could be used for but aren't because of the current structure.
It's not just about dishwashers either. All modern appliances are digital. What can you make any appliance in your home do with continuous monitoring and re-programmability?
IoT could be done so much better. First, give some benefit (E.g. give you a service call when something went wrong).
And Why not use a simple VPN to the host? Encrypt the link some other way? Hell, require a password?
I've programmed IoT device firmware for clients. I put in security - they want it removed. Because it makes installation harder for their staff. No profit in it.
I'd run from any IoT device today. Until we have some legislation or accountability or even UL rating for security, there will be no security at all.
Ok, but many times this leads to wrong conclusions. Just because a feature is not used by everyone, or used rarely, does not mean it's useless.
Yes, but they're much more accurate than the existing systems: user surveys and focus groups. Those are both notoriously useless because people lie (intentionally or otherwise). Even so, telemetry doesn't wholly replace them. It's on top of them.
Marketing is hard, in part because the data you're working with is either (a) untimely, (b) incorrect, or (c) incomplete. User surveys and focus groups are often all three. Telemetry data is largely just incomplete. That's still a huge improvement. In the worst case, it can be used like grading a test.
> Just because a feature is not used by everyone, or used rarely, does not mean it's useless.
And thanks to a software based interface, maybe you don't need to eliminate that feature. You just don't need to continue to develop it.
Look, whether or not their market data is correct, a company that dedicates their resources in the wrong spot is reducing the value of their product to the customer. It means the product is more expensive for no reason. It means that the majority are subsidizing a feature they don't use in exchange for more development on the core functionality that they do. That's just what that means.
And in terms of probability, the truth is that you've got features on your appliances that you paid for and you will never use. Wouldn't you like your money back on those features? You might be the guy who loves the lilac perfume option in your dishwasher, but you probably aren't if only 5% of people use it. That makes it a luxury feature at best, especially because it might be another point of failure. Let those who want the luxury feature pay the cost of that luxury feature.
Tell me you've never bought an appliance or tool that has a dozen features that get in the way of what you actually want to use it for. How that one time you bought a really nice coffee maker because you want to make good coffee easily, and you ended up spending 10 minutes every morning arguing with it. So you went out and got a coffee maker whose only control is an on-off rocker switch, and you love it because it's dead simple, gives you exactly as much control as you want, and can be operated by the pre-coffee brain.
You'd keep the dumb maximum spray-area approach for the pre-wash & rinse cycles, but replace the main wash cycle with a "smart-nozzle" approach that uses a radar (or some other non-optical sensor) to detect surfaces and apply a directed spray.
Theoretically, that would save on energy costs/impact (heating water costs way more than running a SoC/radar), even if the overall wash quality wouldn't really be improved much in most cases. Plus... the technology would be super marketable, imagine the commercials!
So if the top rack is pretty empty or just glasses which are mostly clean, while the bottom rack is full of pots with lots of grease, it will spend more time operating the sprayers on the bottom rack than the top rack.
Normally I'd say someone should check the numbers, but this time I think you have better things to do...
It's been used for decades and it's extremely cheap and reliable.
It is handy if you have a lot of laundry to do (kids) and you want to be on top of doing one load after another / not forget.
What I did instead was paste an Aqara zigbee vibration sensor to the side of the washing machine. Then a little bit of Home Assistant magic and it tells me when the washer seems to be done. In case I didn't hear the symphony it plays at the end of a cycle.
/the real depressing and scary thing about the above is this comment having to indicate i'm being sarcastic
Why not? Or rather, why do we accept this as the norm? A dishwasher isn't that complex, it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free.
perhaps they tried, but got stuck on the bit where they tried to figure out if it halts or not.
From what I can see, there's only two types of processes running inside a dishwasher:
- control loops. These can (and must) be fully articulated during the design phase, can be accurately modeled using a Mealy FSM, and can be coded and verified with 100% coverage.
- input processing. These take input from various sensors inside the machine, clamp and/or process the measurements, and pass on the data to some control system. The processes can be designed to be completely stateless (or maybe with hysteresis), which means that the only verification they need is that they always output valid data, even when confronted with spurious inputs. Since it's a feed-forward process and the inputs are bounded, 100% coverage is again possible.
The only other system is the UI, and its only job is to provide valid configuration data to the master control process. As long as that part is extensively tested, the rest of the UI can crash and reboot at any time, and it won't affect the operation of the fully-tested control process.
Despite plenty of great physical abilities of the washer/dryer, it's almost ruined by a useless UX that obsessively locks one out of all sorts of perfectly legitimate transitions, meaning one has to frequently turn it off and back on to force the change of activity, adding frustration for something that could easily be handled if only they'd not crippled the device and made you wait while you cycle it.
But once you do have wifi functionality so you have wifi hardware, then the thing needs patching and upgrades too. Maybe some server address has changed, maybe a security fix, etc. And obviously if you have wifi hardware, it's the easy way to upgrade the software.
So the question I think isn't "Why does the firmware need to be updated at all"? It likely wouldn't, if the firmware just made the machine clean dishes. The question one should ask is, why does it have network features at all? What possible use case can exist?
A quick google suggests the updates mostly tweak rinse times and temperature settings, presumably based on data that wasn't available before the model shipped.
There's a good chance you're underestimating what a modern dishwasher does. They're fairly complex machines.
I would've hoped the current shortage of chips can put an end to this and 5G perma-surveillance, but here we are ...
Edit: not to speak of "We've detected remnants of the XYZ strain of the <whatever> virus; please isolate yourself now. This message has been passed on to the ministry of health and education. Thanks for your cooperation."
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
I love vids like this - as its a good thing to have an understanding of how all things around you work.
Also, There are two ltypes of dishwasher owners: Those who pre-rinse things that fgo in and those who dont.
I ALWAYS pre-rinse everything. there are times when I use the dishwasher as a dish-rack and wash things by hand and just put them into the open dish-washer to dry... I prefer this to having anything on the counters.
---
I have a set of LG washer/dryer which are wifi capable...
I have yet to find a reason to connect them, even though I have a wifi extender node plugged into the same power as the washer.
I do have "smart" lightbulbs in every socket in the house and can control them all with alexa and/or the Feit app...
I use it all the time, and like to be able to set every single light in the house to whatever color I want. So Ill often set the lights to "Firebrick" which is the most calming at night.
https://www.smarthomeexplained.com/alexa-smart-light-color-n...
and I like to say "Alexa set all lights to firebrick" and every single bulb in the house and porch turn red....
But I guess Ill have to connect the washer and drier to wifi and see what added value I might find there...
FYI this is also a great vid by that guy on power plugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udNXMAflbU8
No such mandates exist for home appliances. The connectivity/apps are purely a money-grab - either people like the general idea of connected devices, or the manufacturer thinks they can monetize that connectivity post-sale (or likely some combination of the two).
Without backup cameras, eventually small children will evolve to be backup resistant.
> No such mandates exist for home appliances.
There are ever-increasing efficiency requirements, some of which all but require computerization.
I believe that the current EU mandate for cars is that they must have cellular connectivity, which is of course for calling emergency services in a crash.
I think "ostensibly for safety" is a better description of some of it.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em...
However, this only activates and sends data in the event of a crash.
Additionally, under EU law consent would be needed for any other uses of this data (and hell no would I be giving consent).
This would allow the device to be tracked from cell to cell by IMEI, if this is indeed how it works.
Note that a mobile device does not need to be registered with the tower to make emergency calls (it works in a cell with no sim!) so it may not actually permit this type of tracking, but also car manufacturers might put a subscriber module in to maintain IP connectivity for additional services even if the car owner doesn't subscribe. This configuration (such as was factory installed in my 2015 BMW 4 series) does allow for carrier/tower-based location tracking.
I had mine ripped out.
There really is a benefit for a Mazda MX-5 Miata to have a backup camera? It would be far more of a distraction than just swiveling your head. Not to mention the e-waste cost of all the useless components in millions of similar cars.
One size fits all solutions should be the rarest of the rare, not the norm. Tire pressure sensors? Sure - useful and most people don't think to check (heck I don't check as often as I should!). But complex crap like cameras and screens in a car the size of a go-cart? Utterly ridiculous and beyond wasteful.
I don’t know what I’d do with any of that other stuff. Does your dishwasher actually try to measure water quality? Because that seems like a really poor fit. I wouldn’t trust water quality measurements coming out of my dishwasher anyway. It’s measuring hot water which isn’t what you should be drinking, and I’d give it a 99% chance that the person who crammed those sensors in didn’t do a good job of insulating them from the heat, vibration, etc.
And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t want it to run yet” and I absolutely do not want HA sending me a message every time I leave asking if I meant to run the dishwasher.
> And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine.
Maybe some dishwashers do have internal heaters to reheat the water? Mine definitely is connected to the hot water supply, though. I am not aware of it containing an internal heater. Definitely some dishwashers have a heating element for drying (mine does not) but I don’t think they use those elements for heating the water.
Also, does your clothes washing machine actually heat water? That seems pointless when you already have a device intended to provide hot water to the whole house. Mine connects to the hot and cold lines. I’d be annoyed if I bought a washing machine and then realized it had a heater inside instead of using the hot water supply. The extra complexity and failure modes and wasted time to heat the water do not seem to provide any value.
> At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.
Personally I don’t want “nice to haves” that requires my devices to be internet connected and have apps etc. The value is way too low for the complexity it adds. I especially don’t trust these device manufacturers to keep these systems running long term.
If you find value, though, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to buy one of those smart dishwashers.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU
A quick search indicates that most (all?) dishwashers have a heater to bring the water up to the necessary level. But also that you should give them the hottest water you can from your plumbing for efficiency.
So you use the hot water line so the water is in the ballpark of the proper temperature, then use the internal heating units to hit and maintain the target temperature.
Although there’s also a big push to start using cold water for clothes. Supposedly modern detergents don’t need hot water typically.
By all means, turn our home PCs into supercomputers and our televisions into 3D hologram projectors, but let "dumb" but reliable goods persist.
Next they'll start making smart cissors, smart drinking glasses, smart pens...
Unfortunately if his goals came to fruition the vast majority of people would be in the same place. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like free software is only a small piece of it.
Free software means that in theory you can modify and maintain the software you run on your machines to your liking (not hardware though, or backends). But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
> But this is so incredibly far beyond the capabilities of the enormous majority of people that it might as well not be a thing in the first place.
You don't have to be a programmer to benefit from free software. The latter simply removes the monopoly of the software developers and allows alternative developers to work for you if you pay them.
And where is this font of developers writing replacements for abandoned free software? We've had decades of GPL software. The number of people who have actually used this lever is incredibly small.
Where can I go to a shop and buy, e.g., a laptop with Linux? It's practically impossible. I guess it's because the monopolies don't allow anyone to enter the market. In practice, Linux is already better for many use cases.
I also have no idea how this is related to the fact that almost no actual consumers are taking advantage of GPL code to continue to maintain their products beyond support offered by their developers. If anything, this would be evidence that GPL software isn't a panacea since doing something as basic as installing Linux is far beyond the capacity of most consumers.
Yes, I can do it, but 95% of people can't. Incidentally, about 5% of people run Linux.
> how this is related to the fact that almost no actual consumers are taking advantage of GPL code
Because the more people use the code, the more development occurs there.
Solution: Software development should be the only creative profession in the entire world with no legal protection on their work!?
It's insane to me. Absolutely insane. Copyright is not immoral. Almost nobody in this thread would be able to make any money as a software engineer if software were not allowed to make money. And yes, I've heard the arguments for how free software could kinda maybe carve out a niche of funding and keep a few passionate people employed for not quite enough money. Spare me. It's like every aerospace engineer deciding that what they're doing is immoral and they should all just be aircraft maintenance techs. It's a completely different, much less creative, and much less satisfying job (for the engineering-minded, anyway).
Of course patents are a different story, and basically are immoral under the current system. And there are clear "right to repair" and ownership rights that we also need to fight for. Can we focus on those fights instead of shaming software developers for wanting to make money on the code they write?
> if something is abandoned by a company, then it should be made open
Totally agree! Once you start selling a product, you should be required to make provisions for your company not existing anymore. Source-code trusts that have the authority to make code public domain or provide it to stakeholders in certain situations, when it can be shown the current IP-holder is not meeting their obligations, would be a great idea. This does not interfere with the interests of active, good-faith copyright holders, except perhaps by charging them a small fee to the trust.
>User repair-ability/unlocking/jail-breaking of devices should be legally protected.
Totally agree! That is what "right to repair" is referring to.
There are ways to solve these problems, and banning copyright on software isn't really even one of them.
[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms
Extending that freedom to allow distributing the end result of those patches to people who don't have a license to use the original software (as freedom 2 does) would just be another, slightly less direct way of abolishing software copyright.
Which is the right thing to do. Copyright creates artificial monopolies and harms users, as was predicted by Stallman: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor.... There should be a different, just way to be paid for software.
Fantasy land. Open source projects have been looking for such a way for decades now, with no luck. Copyright has so far proven to be the only practical, "just" way to make software development viable as a business.
Copyright does not in and of itself "harm" users, unless you consider having to pay for the goods you use to be "harm". The harms described in the article you linked could be mitigated by freedom 1 alone (combined with the portion of freedom 3 that's already allowed under existing law, as discussed).
Free software is not against allowing people to make money. In fact, their model is that people are paid to make changes and support the free software and those changes are shared. And it's still possible to make software and get paid without sharing it.
Free software in fact depends on legal protection.
Only the absolutely lowest end student slum apartments where I live (in a very not-rich state) don't already have a washer hookup/tap. Any home a person would actually purchase would have one already, so no effort.
The dishwasher I buy will never need software.
I am a software engineer and I love technology, but I love simple technology and when something doesn't need software, I don't add software just for the sake of having software.
If you have that option. Not sure if you've shopped for white goods recently, but the options without wifi are relatively few, and mostly lower end models.
We needed a new stove, I wanted one without wifi/internet connectivity. Due to the above and supply chain issues that limited availability of a lot of models, I didn't have a choice and ended up with a model with wifi/internet connectivity. I have, of course, not connected it.
The first one we had, we had for over 20 years until it broke down.
If I can only get an IoT-thingy, I'll refuse to buy one and either repair the old one or wash by hand.
I am a green-nut, so I try to minimize my eco-footprint, but enough is enough and I draw a line when my dishwasher needs to phone home.
What software update could it possible need? A better algorithm for dosage?
At some point the repairs/parts cost more than what the original dishwasher is worth.
Regarding the algorithm, I'm not sure they make a huge difference anyways. FWIW, The Technology Connections channel on YouTube has a couple of pretty interesting videos on how dishwashers work and how to get the most out of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909365
You still have to specifically choose a Wifi one. (Though again, I can see if availability issues might throw a wrench into that if you needed one right away.)
.... What does the associated app do?
Not going to have that option in 5 years. Count yourself lucky if it doesn't require a Google Play account.
If you want internet-connected devices so you can - and I can't imagine why - start your dishwasher remotely, then you necessarily open the door to software updates.
Also how can it know there is an update unless it's already connected to the network... I'm certain there is a way to exit this also and continue operating as it was.
Don't take this as an allowance of disrespectful design - but this post is less than genuine in it's position.
In contrast to the case of a TV, you may want to buy the smart thing and not connect it. Because since all decent TVs now are smart TVs, chasing a much worse and/or much more expensive TV to avoid smart features in 2022 is usually going to be a really expensive way of buying a really poor TV (Such as a commercial panel, computer monitor, or low end TV - all bad TVs). Then it's better to just buy the smart TV you want and plug in an external source and just not use the smart features.
But with a dishwasher there is still a wide selection of dumb dishwashers. And if we keep buying those, that will be the case tomorrow too.
I just renovated my whole kitchen, and all the appliances that had the features I wanted also had wifi connectivity. I basically had no choice but to buy them with it, other than giving up other features. I haven't, however, allowed any of them to connect to my wifi.
The impending next-generation devices that will come with their own embedded 3G/4G antennae are going to pose a whole new set of problems.
Manufacturers do already build in dead-man switches into some products, and the more that do this, the more this becomes a problem because then even disabling an antenna will not work. It would be down to requiring custom firmware for a device.
This is an area right-to-repair legislation could address and prevent this.
And if they let you use it if the antenna is intact (tamper sensing cover for it, maybe?) but without service, then you just need a low power RF noise generator right beside it.
This prevents exploitation of their crufty software, but also prevents the manufacturer to brick or otherwise use them against you with unscrupulous updates. If a software update exists, you will apply it manually if you are bothered by the specific bugs.
Never auto-update embedded software, never trust them on your network if they don't belong there, never trust their programmers to do anything but a half-ass hack, the absolute minimum required to get the product out the door, expecting they will issue updates.
[1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/connected-cars-how-5g-and-iot-...
[2]: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/markets/digital-identity-and-...
[3]: https://www.ericsson.com/en/connected-vehicles
The device isn't smart, it's just a big social experiment to check whether you're smart enough not to buy one. (and sadly too many people have failed, so they increased their efforts to get meaningful data by getting rid of other options. Nowadays you often can only buy "smart" devices, or you repair your old stuff)
All they do is take away more time and make once simple tasks overly complex... oh, and they break more easily than previous generations it seems. Which only makes sense.
My mother cried on the phone when she had replaced her washing machine with a "smart" one, that only made her life more complex.
She had bought the same brand for over 30 years, now she will never buy one of their machines again.
I wonder if it’s trying to connect to wifi or something. I miss my old one where I could just push the start button.
It would have been trivial for them to flash a light or start the countdown (it has a timer display). But no; just sits there silently for a while.
I'm glad that I have around 20 year old Bosch dishwasher. It has one button and one knob and it doesn't beep.
For home automation I sometimes would like to add a lowest quality webcam pointed towards lights to see if it has finished. But not for the dishwasher - it always takes the same time and is quick enough. It could be useful for the washing machine, but not enough for me to care.
The more interesting question is who, in the bowels of the manufacturer's corporate headquarters, determined that this feature added value, how was it priced, and what, if anything was done after the fact to assess whether the additional cost was justified?
Dumb cars that are spotted on the highway without matching digital footprints will be confiscated on the spot.