Everything is being done wrong and they think they're being a valuable skeptic telling you so, but really they're just trying to show the world how much they get it, and are ultimately not as smart as they think they are ;)
I believe that is the syndrome of being an imposter that pretends to be competent, rather than the syndrome of believing despite competence that one is an impostor.
Remind me of a random idea from heard somewhere: I’m not crazy because crazy people don’t think they are crazy…
Loved what the author mentioned about how not being an imposter can be verified. Have you produced something that solves a customer need? Have you fixed a bug in somebody’s code? Have you produced something that is of value to somebody else? Then you are not an imposter! You are able to do what a typical developer should do.
We all don’t need to be Linuses or Bills or R&K to not be an imposter.
At the same time, I totally agree with the author’s assertion about the irony of “confessing” feeling like an imposter. It’s like bragging about how humble one is!
Imposter syndrome is not about reasoned self-assessment, it is specifically and pretty much by definition an irrational belief held by someone despite clear evidence to the contrary. As such, this does not mean it isn't a real thing, or that as the article's author claims it is some sort of humble brag or other form of self promotion.
Like any irrational belief, simply telling the person it's irrational or providing evidence they are undoubtedly already aware of is not a cure all for this state of mind. In this, it's more like OCD. (and in fact imposter syndrome often coexists with forms of mental health issues) Telling an OCD person who just checked the doorknob for the 3rd time that it's locked, they don't need to check a 4th, they know & remember checking already... yeah, that doesn't work.
Of course then there's the issue of just how irrational aspects of imposter syndrome actually are. Often it's associated with the feeling that it was random chance or luck that landed someone where they are in life. Which is true! Wherever you are in life, it took countless minor and major events over which you had no control to get you where you are: Perhaps a friend happens to know someone where you're applying for a job and puts in a good word, putting you ahead of plenty of other candidates qualified for the job. Where you sit in a meeting one day ends up forging a fruitful professional friendship with the person next to you. You decide to check in on an old colleague on LinkedIn when you haven't bothered to login there for a year and see a job opportunity...
So why shouldn't someone feel that their place in life was the result of many random chance encounters or small choices or being in the right place at the right time? It's true! The problem enters into things only when a person focusses on those facts to the exclusion of all others and clings irrationally to the belief that those were the only factors. That getting a job with the help of a friend's recommendation didn't also mean that they were qualified for it anyway. That they might have developed a fruitful professional relationship with almost anyone they sat next to in the meeting given a few minutes of conversation. And so on.
Yes, people will find plenty of ways to humble brag and I'm sure this is one of them. But someone who automatically thinks anyone expressing this sentiment is just some variety of self-promoting braggart says more about their own toxic cynicism than their insight into the mindset and behavior of others.
For me sometimes I know exactly what I am doing. I am 'the guy' for that thing. But for many items I have zero idea how I am going to go about it. That is when it kicks in for me. But I recognize it and use it as a reason to say 'hey explain this to me'. Instead of sitting around hoping no one notices. I use it to my advantage.
I have suffered from imposter syndrome in the past and it stemmed from a previous job where the leadership intended to make you feel useless and incompetent. I have overcome it recently and have more confidence in myself these days. I am not aware why people would use imposter syndrome as a way to brag but for myself I genuinely didn't feel comfortable about myself.
Just want to vent for a moment, because the author seems to genuinely think that people displaying vulnerability and disclosing their impostor syndrome to you is some sort of humblebrag? You don’t need to sus out some sort of hidden meaning here: the person doesn’t feel comfortable in their current environment and is probably seeking support and validation. There are surely some among us who are “faking” it, but that’s literally true of everything, so I don’t see the reason to assume bad faith :/
“Imposter syndrome” is fundamentally a humblebrag as the implicit notion is that your worthiness is so obvious and the system which privileged you is so righteous as to make any doubts some sort of disorder.
I’ll see people being like “I have imposter syndrome being in an Ivy League school/elite job/etc” and the idea that they could be gasp merely average and just overrated is so preposterous as to warrant immediate assistance from a doctor! They’re suffering from a modesty attack basically, which is no surprise as their greatness is hard for them to square with in their own minds.
Imposter syndrome is really mostly having an objective view of the world and realizing that elite success is mostly arbitrary especially when that success has no objective measure. It’s pathologized because it threatens power and people are encouraged to believe they are indeed special.
Honestly, I don't think you understand what imposter syndrome is. It is an inability to properly assess one's competence. These people do not think they are "merely average", they think they are the bottom of the barrel, and those thoughts lead to serious behavioral issues and the condition might degrade to a generalized anxiety disorder or depression.
I'd recommend focusing on what people say and do instead of what you see with your own biases.
In the broad societal sense I’m talking about, people with imposter syndrome do not believe they’re the bottom of the barrel, maybe they believe they’re at the bottom of a given organization or trade but being at the bottom of such things is not that bad in the grand scheme of things.
My lack of belief in imposter syndrome is only strengthened by people advocating they believe in it out of concern for negative outcomes if we did not deny it as that creates an obvious bias. Depressed people also have more objective views of their own performance than non-depressed people (they are irrational in some ways, but not THIS way).
> In the broad societal sense I’m talking about, people with imposter syndrome do not believe they’re the bottom of the barrel, maybe they believe they’re at the bottom of a given organization or trade but being at the bottom of such things is not that bad in the grand scheme of things.
I know people with imposter syndrome. They do believe they're the worst, that they are just fooling everyone and that someone is going to find out. That they're not valid at all for whatever it is they're doing, no matter what that is. It's not just about low self-esteem, and it isn't extremely rare to see it similar signs outside of a work context (relationships, study, hobbies).
> My lack of belief in imposter syndrome is only strengthened by people advocating they believe in it out of concern for negative outcomes if we did not deny it as that creates an obvious bias. Depressed people also have more objective views of their own performance than non-depressed people (they are irrational in some ways, but not THIS way).
"Believing in it out of concern"? Honestly, you have absolutely no idea about this issue. I've seen the real consequences of this. It's not just about believing they're out of place, but the behavioral changes those irrational thoughts bring. From the mild ones such as slowing down their careers because they don't think they're worthy to take on new opportunities, or reduced work performance, to serious ones like complete decision paralysis or extreme overpreparation to the point of neglecting other aspects of their life, and it can evolve to serious anxiety and depression disorders with all the consequences those have.
> Depressed people also have more objective views of their own performance than non-depressed people (they are irrational in some ways, but not THIS way).
Imposter syndrome and depression are different things. Clearly you don't know what the disorder is and yet you feel you're perfectly qualified to dismiss it as a non-existing thing.
You can think you're bad at your job and that doesn't necessarily mean it's imposter syndrome. You might even think you're actually an imposter and that those around you think better of you than you actually are and it still doesn't mean it's imposter syndrome 100%. If the assessment is more or less accurate and specially if you can deal with that in a healthy way, it's not imposter syndrome. That's the issue, that's why it's a disorder. It's not about "the thought" but about the thought being irrational and immovable by evidence, and about the actual effects and disruptions those thoughts have on the daily life of the person.
>implicit notion is that your worthiness is so obvious
Where do you get the idea that this is part of imposter syndrome? The whole concept of imposter syndrome is that it's an irrationally held belief and the person doesn't feel worthy despite evidence to the contrary.
That your own experience with people making the claim has been from people from elite schools/jobs/etc. doesn't prove anything about imposter syndrome being fundamentally a humble brag: Half the people that apply to elite schools exceed the average academic profile for admission to those schools and there are plenty of qualified candidates for most job openings in elite workplaces. Chance & luck play a huge part in in who, of the many qualified individuals, get those spots.
Why is it hard for you to understand that some people irrationally but honestly focus exclusively on the chance & luck aspects of their accomplishments? Irrationality is hardly uncommon, why is it difficult to believe that imposter syndrome isn't just another one, and instead must be some sort of bragging?
It is also possible that, in your social circles, people are simply misusing the term as a misguided way to acknowledge the role that chance & luck played in their success. Of course there's always going to be some annoying people that often use it as a chance to slip "I went to an Ivy League school" or some other brag into a conversation, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
> The whole concept of imposter syndrome is that it's an irrationally held belief and the person doesn't feel worthy despite evidence to the contrary.
So in other words the concept with imposter syndrome is that peoples worthiness is obvious?
It would be impossible for me to deny that there must be somebody out there with irrationally low self esteem, yet the fact that imposter syndrome MOSTLY affects people of privilege implies that it’s grounded in rationality. We’re it just a completely arbitrary phenomenon Joe working as a fry cook would feel it just as strongly as Bob working as a CEO.
It’s taken as a just-so foregone conclusion that if you are experiencing imposter syndrome, you’re irrational. Nobody will ever go into a therapists office, tell them they think they’re an imposter, and be told “yup sure seems that way, may as well make the best of it”. It’s taken as a self-evident truth that anything but high self esteem is an irrational state of being, and people repeat this to themselves and others.
>So in other words the concept with imposter syndrome is that peoples worthiness is obvious?
I really don't know how you are getting to that interpretation of what I wrote. Imposter syndrome is literally the opposite: That to the people who experience imposter syndrome, their worthiness is not obvious to themselves even given ample evidence.
You are also mixing together two separate concepts, even if they are somewhat related. Imposter syndrome is not simply about self esteem. A successful person can know & feel they are competent and at the same time believe they don't deserve what they have compared to others who are just as good but didn't have the advantages. Or a person can have low self-esteem but still know they're good at their job. It's not all or nothing. Imposter syndrome is something much more specific. It often pertains more to feelings of professional incompetence, and in particular that the person has committed a kind of trickery or fraud to get where they are.
>Nobody will ever go into a therapists office, tell them they think they’re an imposter, and be told “yup sure seems that way, may as well make the best of it”.
>It’s taken as a just-so foregone conclusion that if you are experiencing imposter syndrome, you’re irrational
You seem to think this is wrong, it is not. Take a step back for a second and consider this statement: "It is irrational to believe something when it runs counter to strong evidence." That seems correct to me. Would you agree beliefs that contradict strong evidence are irrational? Well, the definition of imposter syndrome is that the person believes they're an imposter even when that belief runs counter to all available evidence. Think of four categories of people:
1) A person is not an imposter, and does not feel like one. This is not imposter syndrome
2) A person believes they are an imposter, and they actually are an imposter: They knowingly lie, forged their resume, etc. This is also not imposter syndrome
3) A person does not believe they're an imposter, but they truly are incompetent, know very little about their jobs, and don't even realize how awful they are. This is also not imposter syndrome In fact it's more like the opposite, perhaps Dunning Kruger.
4) A person is great at their job. They get constant praise, rise the career ladder, has provably & tangible beneficial work attributed to them, but still for some reason they feel like they are faking it, that it all comes from luck and deception. This is imposter syndrome
Writeup ignores the nuances of mental health - there is a gradient between "I am definitely an imposter" and "I have imposter sydrome, these thoughts are not real". In between is a miasma of self-doubt and anxiety. And it can change depending on the time and the situation.
If a friend or colleague confided in me that they felt like an imposter (but weren't sure) I would treat that as a tremendous act of trust, not an attempt at 'humble bragging'.
This. We exist in a weird situation where on one hand we are encouraged to be open and transparent about what we don't know, in order to grow and improve, but on the other hand, are paid and valued largely according to what we know.
Crossing that boundary required a lot of trust at times. Company culture valuing growth over outright performance can go a long way, but is also sometimes not aligned profits.
I wonder how much of imposter syndrome is driven by environmental factors. I work in an environment that's on the bleeding edge of software, hardware, and physics and hardly anyone actually knows everything in their subject area off hand, but "I can ask someone else, or do some reading and get back to you" is not an uncommon phrase here. There's a huge difference between not being able to understand something (via referencing external sources) and being able to answer an arbitrary question about it from memory.
You don't know what people are actually going through without gathering more information. Maybe they are in the wrong job or field, maybe their coworkers are just jerks and they have insecurity due to how poeple have treated them in the past. Constructing strawmen like this is easy and not insightful.
This fails to acknowledge the fact that imposter syndrome is generally an irrational belief and often coexists with others forms of mental health issues. This means that (while I'm sure it's part of a humble brag sometimes) that admitting to this feeling while following up with evidence to the contrary fits squarely with the fact that it's an irrational belief. It's one that is held despite counter evidence that the individual may be fully aware of. Try telling someone with OCD that they don't need to check the door lock for the 4th time. They remember checking it 5 seconds earlier, and 5 before that. It's not about evidence.
As such, this article says very little about the people the author makes fun of but a whole lot about the author's ignorance on the topic.
This article makes me furious. What does the author want to tell us? That everyone who feels like an imposter, and talks about it, is an arrogant arse that only wants to brag? Maybe he is and all the people he meets are.
But me as well as many of my close friends (none of them arrogant, I assure you) do feel like an imposter at their specific jobs from time to time. It's a thing that holds us back, a personal insecurity that we just carry around. We have learned to live with it and accept it as just something completely normal, especially because we talked about it.
I don't find the humor in diminishing a non-trivial mental health issue and making fun of the people suffering from it, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
Sooo no way to win here, according to this edgy take. This philosophy, where any expression of stress is just a ploy, seems like a great way to prevent people from reaching out to each other for help with the psychological pressures of intense work environments, thus making it all worse.
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 84.3 ms ] threadEverything is being done wrong and they think they're being a valuable skeptic telling you so, but really they're just trying to show the world how much they get it, and are ultimately not as smart as they think they are ;)
Loved what the author mentioned about how not being an imposter can be verified. Have you produced something that solves a customer need? Have you fixed a bug in somebody’s code? Have you produced something that is of value to somebody else? Then you are not an imposter! You are able to do what a typical developer should do.
We all don’t need to be Linuses or Bills or R&K to not be an imposter.
At the same time, I totally agree with the author’s assertion about the irony of “confessing” feeling like an imposter. It’s like bragging about how humble one is!
Imposter syndrome is not about reasoned self-assessment, it is specifically and pretty much by definition an irrational belief held by someone despite clear evidence to the contrary. As such, this does not mean it isn't a real thing, or that as the article's author claims it is some sort of humble brag or other form of self promotion.
Like any irrational belief, simply telling the person it's irrational or providing evidence they are undoubtedly already aware of is not a cure all for this state of mind. In this, it's more like OCD. (and in fact imposter syndrome often coexists with forms of mental health issues) Telling an OCD person who just checked the doorknob for the 3rd time that it's locked, they don't need to check a 4th, they know & remember checking already... yeah, that doesn't work.
Of course then there's the issue of just how irrational aspects of imposter syndrome actually are. Often it's associated with the feeling that it was random chance or luck that landed someone where they are in life. Which is true! Wherever you are in life, it took countless minor and major events over which you had no control to get you where you are: Perhaps a friend happens to know someone where you're applying for a job and puts in a good word, putting you ahead of plenty of other candidates qualified for the job. Where you sit in a meeting one day ends up forging a fruitful professional friendship with the person next to you. You decide to check in on an old colleague on LinkedIn when you haven't bothered to login there for a year and see a job opportunity...
So why shouldn't someone feel that their place in life was the result of many random chance encounters or small choices or being in the right place at the right time? It's true! The problem enters into things only when a person focusses on those facts to the exclusion of all others and clings irrationally to the belief that those were the only factors. That getting a job with the help of a friend's recommendation didn't also mean that they were qualified for it anyway. That they might have developed a fruitful professional relationship with almost anyone they sat next to in the meeting given a few minutes of conversation. And so on.
Yes, people will find plenty of ways to humble brag and I'm sure this is one of them. But someone who automatically thinks anyone expressing this sentiment is just some variety of self-promoting braggart says more about their own toxic cynicism than their insight into the mindset and behavior of others.
I’ll see people being like “I have imposter syndrome being in an Ivy League school/elite job/etc” and the idea that they could be gasp merely average and just overrated is so preposterous as to warrant immediate assistance from a doctor! They’re suffering from a modesty attack basically, which is no surprise as their greatness is hard for them to square with in their own minds.
Imposter syndrome is really mostly having an objective view of the world and realizing that elite success is mostly arbitrary especially when that success has no objective measure. It’s pathologized because it threatens power and people are encouraged to believe they are indeed special.
I'd recommend focusing on what people say and do instead of what you see with your own biases.
My lack of belief in imposter syndrome is only strengthened by people advocating they believe in it out of concern for negative outcomes if we did not deny it as that creates an obvious bias. Depressed people also have more objective views of their own performance than non-depressed people (they are irrational in some ways, but not THIS way).
I know people with imposter syndrome. They do believe they're the worst, that they are just fooling everyone and that someone is going to find out. That they're not valid at all for whatever it is they're doing, no matter what that is. It's not just about low self-esteem, and it isn't extremely rare to see it similar signs outside of a work context (relationships, study, hobbies).
> My lack of belief in imposter syndrome is only strengthened by people advocating they believe in it out of concern for negative outcomes if we did not deny it as that creates an obvious bias. Depressed people also have more objective views of their own performance than non-depressed people (they are irrational in some ways, but not THIS way).
"Believing in it out of concern"? Honestly, you have absolutely no idea about this issue. I've seen the real consequences of this. It's not just about believing they're out of place, but the behavioral changes those irrational thoughts bring. From the mild ones such as slowing down their careers because they don't think they're worthy to take on new opportunities, or reduced work performance, to serious ones like complete decision paralysis or extreme overpreparation to the point of neglecting other aspects of their life, and it can evolve to serious anxiety and depression disorders with all the consequences those have.
> Depressed people also have more objective views of their own performance than non-depressed people (they are irrational in some ways, but not THIS way).
Imposter syndrome and depression are different things. Clearly you don't know what the disorder is and yet you feel you're perfectly qualified to dismiss it as a non-existing thing.
You can think you're bad at your job and that doesn't necessarily mean it's imposter syndrome. You might even think you're actually an imposter and that those around you think better of you than you actually are and it still doesn't mean it's imposter syndrome 100%. If the assessment is more or less accurate and specially if you can deal with that in a healthy way, it's not imposter syndrome. That's the issue, that's why it's a disorder. It's not about "the thought" but about the thought being irrational and immovable by evidence, and about the actual effects and disruptions those thoughts have on the daily life of the person.
Where do you get the idea that this is part of imposter syndrome? The whole concept of imposter syndrome is that it's an irrationally held belief and the person doesn't feel worthy despite evidence to the contrary.
That your own experience with people making the claim has been from people from elite schools/jobs/etc. doesn't prove anything about imposter syndrome being fundamentally a humble brag: Half the people that apply to elite schools exceed the average academic profile for admission to those schools and there are plenty of qualified candidates for most job openings in elite workplaces. Chance & luck play a huge part in in who, of the many qualified individuals, get those spots.
Why is it hard for you to understand that some people irrationally but honestly focus exclusively on the chance & luck aspects of their accomplishments? Irrationality is hardly uncommon, why is it difficult to believe that imposter syndrome isn't just another one, and instead must be some sort of bragging?
It is also possible that, in your social circles, people are simply misusing the term as a misguided way to acknowledge the role that chance & luck played in their success. Of course there's always going to be some annoying people that often use it as a chance to slip "I went to an Ivy League school" or some other brag into a conversation, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
So in other words the concept with imposter syndrome is that peoples worthiness is obvious?
It would be impossible for me to deny that there must be somebody out there with irrationally low self esteem, yet the fact that imposter syndrome MOSTLY affects people of privilege implies that it’s grounded in rationality. We’re it just a completely arbitrary phenomenon Joe working as a fry cook would feel it just as strongly as Bob working as a CEO.
It’s taken as a just-so foregone conclusion that if you are experiencing imposter syndrome, you’re irrational. Nobody will ever go into a therapists office, tell them they think they’re an imposter, and be told “yup sure seems that way, may as well make the best of it”. It’s taken as a self-evident truth that anything but high self esteem is an irrational state of being, and people repeat this to themselves and others.
Its all very self serving and I’m distrustful.
I really don't know how you are getting to that interpretation of what I wrote. Imposter syndrome is literally the opposite: That to the people who experience imposter syndrome, their worthiness is not obvious to themselves even given ample evidence.
You are also mixing together two separate concepts, even if they are somewhat related. Imposter syndrome is not simply about self esteem. A successful person can know & feel they are competent and at the same time believe they don't deserve what they have compared to others who are just as good but didn't have the advantages. Or a person can have low self-esteem but still know they're good at their job. It's not all or nothing. Imposter syndrome is something much more specific. It often pertains more to feelings of professional incompetence, and in particular that the person has committed a kind of trickery or fraud to get where they are.
>Nobody will ever go into a therapists office, tell them they think they’re an imposter, and be told “yup sure seems that way, may as well make the best of it”.
>It’s taken as a just-so foregone conclusion that if you are experiencing imposter syndrome, you’re irrational
You seem to think this is wrong, it is not. Take a step back for a second and consider this statement: "It is irrational to believe something when it runs counter to strong evidence." That seems correct to me. Would you agree beliefs that contradict strong evidence are irrational? Well, the definition of imposter syndrome is that the person believes they're an imposter even when that belief runs counter to all available evidence. Think of four categories of people:
1) A person is not an imposter, and does not feel like one. This is not imposter syndrome
2) A person believes they are an imposter, and they actually are an imposter: They knowingly lie, forged their resume, etc. This is also not imposter syndrome
3) A person does not believe they're an imposter, but they truly are incompetent, know very little about their jobs, and don't even realize how awful they are. This is also not imposter syndrome In fact it's more like the opposite, perhaps Dunning Kruger.
4) A person is great at their job. They get constant praise, rise the career ladder, has provably & tangible beneficial work attributed to them, but still for some reason they feel like they are faking it, that it all comes from luck and deception. This is imposter syndrome
If a friend or colleague confided in me that they felt like an imposter (but weren't sure) I would treat that as a tremendous act of trust, not an attempt at 'humble bragging'.
Crossing that boundary required a lot of trust at times. Company culture valuing growth over outright performance can go a long way, but is also sometimes not aligned profits.
As such, this article says very little about the people the author makes fun of but a whole lot about the author's ignorance on the topic.
the persistent inability to believe that one's success is deserved or has been legitimately achieved as a result of one's own efforts or skills.
I am not sure the author and I share the same definition of the subject of the piece.
NSFW a humorous look