Ask HN: I’m 41 and still unmarried – what should I do?
By most cultural standards, according to my male friends, I’m smart, beautiful, fit, kind, emotionally mature and doing meaningful work in the world. Not too needy and not a workaholic.
Over the last two years I’ve been on over 120 dates with men I’ve met online - a few I met in person - in 3 different cities .
I’ve deeply invested myself in therapy, support groups, meditation, dating coaching, yoga and hypnotism. I’ve tried bumble, tinder , Eharmony, hinge, coffee meets bagel, Thursday, Match, speed dating as well as a few other random apps.
I’ve asked my friends to set me up . I tried to crowdsource a husband on Facebook.
I’ve read and done the exercises in Calling In the One, Love Addiction, Datonomics, Make Your Move and If the Buddha dated. I’ve listened to every episode of Girls Gotta Eat.
I’ve gone to CrossFit and hung out at steakhouses. I’ve dated every profession you can think of from doctors to electricians and unemployed guys.
I even moved to Austin because I read that’s where there was the highest ratio of educated men to women, thereby improving my odds of meeting a marriageable man.
My time for having children is running out.
This has always been my dream and I’m willing to try almost anything. I was raised by a single mom and I really want to have kids with a man I love, not do it on my own.
So, are there any love hacks I could try?
Please encouragement only, no discouragement. I’m discouraged enough already.
740 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 394 ms ] threadA guy who is both physically attractive and “marriageable”, which I assume means charismatic and well-established financially, will have tons of options. Even if you are quite attractive yourself, your age will tend to rank you lower on his list of options—it’s not fair but that’s how human reproductive biology works.
Just like a startup who can’t compete with google to hire the very best engineers and so needs to “think outside the box” in considering less traditionally qualified candidates who nonetheless have potential, you’ll probably have more success if you’re honest with yourself about your “mating market value”, even if it hurts the ego a bit, and look for men that might be lacking somehow in some areas but make up for it in others.
It’s also important to understand that most guys will sleep with literally any woman given the opportunity. Don’t confuse getting a high status guy interested in sex with getting one interested in a relationship. The first has little bearing on the second. Having a high value in the casual sex market can cause someone to overrate their value in the monogamous relationship market.
Sorry if some of that sounded harsh, but I think we’d all be better off with more honesty and realism on these topics. I hope you find the right person!
Some questions: Why do you want kids? (There are basically two answers, either it is because you have something to give or because you want something. I guess you can figure out which mindset is healthier.)
Are you actually interested in the people around you? Not only men, but people in general? Do you make an effort to get to know them? And by the same token, are you ready to experience intimacy? I am not (only) talking about sex, but about the effort it takes to open up to someone and to trust them.
Something that can (!) happen when you grow up with a single parent is that the parent confides in you just as if you were their partner, which leads to an unhealthy dynamic (parentification). Since children learn relationship dynamics from their parents, the learning experience in this case is "my needs and boundaries do not matter". As the child grows up, this can (!) lead to a pattern where they avoid intimacy in order to keep their needs and boundaries.
You may want to google "fear of intimacy", "attachment styles", "scared of commitment" and if this resonates with you have a look at books like "He's scared, She's scared" by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol and David Schnarch's books on intimacy (his book "Passionate Marriage" does not only deal with marriage but mostly with the connection between sex and intimacy in general).
Or let me phrase it another way: Did you notice any remarkable changes when you did these things? Examples could be: Revelations about your relationship with your parents, how you perceive certain situations, understanding your feelings better, gaining a better sense of your body etc. If you know someone who has what you wants, what is that person like? Are you like them or do you behave differently? How has your behavior changed during self-reflection? (No need to answer in public, just to give you an idea of what I mean and what I think are important points during self-reflection.)
My impression is that most self-help approaches teach the same things, but not everyone is equally receptive to each approach. Same with therapists, coaching and groups, sometimes it takes another try to find the one that is right for you. Most stuff seems to focus on the intellectual level, but I think that it is equally important to experience the feelings that come with it (for example with techniques like Focusing).
It's often a power game: the more leverage you have, the better terms you can set. Women can filter out men interested in casual sex by making it everything but casual: making them wait, increasing the effort required, increasing the dating costs. You mentioned going on 120+ dates so I assume you have a large pool of men from which you can select.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8600582/
The article details how men match far less frequently than women, with most matches by women for males enjoyed by only a small population of highly desired males.
Highly desired males have a far greater selection of females to choose from than average males, and would be far more likely to enjoy the benefits without the relationship commitment.
Your being ghosted immediately following matching or their failed efforts at immediate physical intimacy may be an indicator that you are only pursuing highly desired males.
If so, then maybe you are caught in loop where your initial choices in highly desirable males have a ‘cereal aisle syndrome’ or Netflix scrolling problem in selecting you.
To be blunt, maybe visually you are an 8 striving to match with a 10?
Getting beyond just the visual and to the substantial requires in person meeting for most males to void being filtered out.
I can’t really offer any advice other than keep your ‘attack surface area’ high to increase opportunities for serendipity!
Don’t underestimate serendipity.
And just surf the waves life sends your way.
Good luck and I hope you are happy and full of purpose regardless of relationship and kid status.
Are you religious?
Care to elaborate?
I (44m S NM NK MAANG) inadvertently have much younger gfs (19-27), Master's- / PhD-types who also tend to be more emotionally and life mature than most people of any age. I guess it might be "market dynamics" when I'm dating them and they announce that they're bi or pan, whether it's a college phase or they're actually that. I don't understand why that happens or why women try to set me up with other women. It doesn't make sense. I piss with the equipment I was issued and don't look a gift horse.
I think we have a winner.
This is literally the meme situation https://i.redd.it/zm3wo9fg9uv81.jpg
Smoking, drugs, bad habits, already had kids, alcoholism, emotional instability, poor attitude, ego out-of-control, lack of intellectual curiosity, judgmental (conservative or hipster), too boring, not many hobbies, low self-confidence, jealousy issues, cheater-type behaviors, psycho (cluster A B or C), external locus-of-control, taker rather than giver, and/or lack of excellence.
There's tons of women I've met who seem like catches but they're invariably coupled.
PS: What's weird in my life recently is coupled women wanting to be "friends" with me. I'm fine if that's what it is, but the vibes and actions are incongruent to that.
My humble suggestion is to meet someone as soon as possible once you know you're interested (in a safe setting, ofc). This really cut down on churn for me.
There is no replacement for real-life live interaction!
Chances are we can't tell you anything your therapist(s) and dating coach(es) haven't already - they probably have a lot more information about you, and are specialists in the area of relationships.
You mention you've been on over 120 dates - that's a lot of dates! Were there any second dates? Why or why not?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4FF2XkzGMCg
and try to understand and ask the universe for help.
From what you’ve described here, you’re quite the catch. Is it that belief that is leading you to have too high of standards for your mate?
So maybe it isn’t standards in terms of income, occupation, etc. that’s holding you back. It seems like you’re using attractiveness as the first filter. Which most people do when finding a mate. But given your age and your goals, maybe you should give a chance to more of those that you don’t find meeting your attractiveness bar. Treat it like a arranged marriage perhaps, arranged marriages often result in fulfilling lasting marriages (with kids!) that I’m sure didn’t start with outright attraction.
It's trajectory, not starting point.
Don't underestimate the commitment of kids. Prospective partners know they are a forever commitment that will stress and strain even a well established relationship. They will eat time, motivation, career, and sanity for breakfast, then demand entertainment, transport a packed lunch. To be good parents you have to give up a lot and you never get it back. Splitting up and spitting the dummy isn't going to change that like it could solve arguments the past. In the event of success in your search, given you will thus be emotionally, practically and socially completely redefined as a person by having kids anyway, why not kiss your current self goodbye and release your expectations before beginning the search?
Here it is: Back-burner your career up front.
Ask yourself what more are you looking for in your career? Are you willing to 100% ditch it for a few years starting tomorrow for Mr. Squintrite™ to have kids or are you expecting him to take up the slack for you while you go on a hormonal journey of aggressive self-redefinition with disrupted sleep and emotional conflict guaranteed, cynically to avoid timeout on a me-too life check box now that it suits you? If it's a mix, consider how it may adjust perception in a mate. Any other expectations to unpack? Houses, cars, rings, income? Any pet baggage or toxic girlfriends in there? Debt, expensive spending or bad habits? Don't beat yourself up about it, just understand what might be a red flag for others. Having parents or family around helps with the strain of kids. You mentioned moving about. Is your mum around to help? Are you willing to move to be close to a partner's extended family?
After putting work on the backburner, try something abnormal (eg. take up a new interest, preferably including week+ periods away in places with great climates), and then see who you meet. They might be more compatible than the set you're meeting otherwise. If in 2-3 years it still doesn't happen, go back to work and embrace being kidless.
Was it Alaska that was described as "the odds are good, but the goods are odd" regarding the dating scene and overabundance of men? Maybe a summer in Anchorage is worth a try. You will lose Austin's amazing taco scene, but gain some glaciers :)
p.s. LDS / Mormonism is the biggest sham ever. Do not recommend, would not do again.
Don't get your garments in a bunch over it matey.
Based on who you have said you dated, I agree with you that the issue isn't the height of your standard, but it may be with the measuring tools your using to guage them.
"...second chance..." You're keeping a tally?
".. I sanity check it with my friend." You have the capability of discernment on your own, and you should engage with owning your own power and capabilities. Going to a friend is you trying to export the potential guilt/shame/pain/whatever-negative-feeling-you're-avoiding out to a 3rd party as a safety valve so you don't have to deal with it when the (surprise!) inevitable happens because there are now no consequences for your actions.
"I'm not the kind of person..." Whatever was in the rest of that sentence, you should try to be that kind of person for a while. To get some perspective.
"I try to be compassionate and see the good in people." Oh this is a giant red flag. If you feel compelled to wave this banner around (especially in public), as though other people 'are not' this, it is because you likely have a crushing amount of guilt from being judgmental about others.
"I've endured a lot of negative treatment from men" You mean like they beat and rape you, or they call you names and yell at you? There is a chasm of difference between these two things. If you're summoning assholes from the first group, god help you. I hope you can find a mentor that can restore your confidence and you can come to know that you intrinsically have worth that is outside of whatever horribleness you are encountering in the world. If you attract men who are verbally/psychologically abusive, then I would suppose there is a reason you are attracting those kind of men. Maybe you are a negative, spoiled, titty baby who constantly plays the victim card and incessantly puts the blame for your situation on others because you're afraid of responsibility. Maybe you've lost (or were never taught) the value of having gratitude, even (and especially) during trouble.
Your expectations of people are worthless, no, worse, they are actively destructive to your relationships. Any expectations of people are that. Assume all responsibility, even for others, yourself, or continue driving in circles.
Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules in the future. You broke quite a few of them here.
I was raised with a lot of this kind of language (sans any encouragement and hope), and was taught to become emotional at the slightest sign of discomfort. It's not an excuse, but it is where I am. I'm still learning to avoid expressing negativity.
For guys this is natural as we are expected to take the initiative since teenage years.
https://youtu.be/sPOuIyEJnbE
Looking back, I sort of wish we'd started with the kids somewhat earlier (#1 was born when I was 34).
Having said that, we did a load of stuff before that that we couldn't have done had we had kids sooner.
Life has a habit of throwing curveballs. Having kids just adds to that, massively.
If you are indeed ready to find someone I would advise you to get pragmatic and be specific about exactly what you want.
Write down exactly who you are looking for. Try to narrow to age, race, physical characteristics, etc. Literally, every aspect that is important to you. Write it down with a pen on paper. Make it real and get it out of your head.
Then, aggressively start looking and use the criteria you’ve developed.
Second pass is incongruence. The best advice I every got on hiring was to not hire people whose projected persona wasn't congruent; what that means changes from person to person, but it ends up being critical for close relationships.
I don't think I have a great answer. Before I met my wife, it felt hopeless. I had dates and girlfriends, but no one I would want to spend the rest of my life with. And then I met my wife at work, and very quickly it felt obvious that I would spend the rest of my life with her.
I guess my point is that it isn't something you build up to, necessarily. It goes from "there is no way I could find a life partner" to "I can't imagine not being with this person" without much in between. It isn't like you start with someone where you say, "Oh, I could spend a few weeks with this person", move on to the one year person, before finally getting to the lifetime partner... it just happens.
Live your life, meet people. Stop looking desperately and just observe.
Well since you worry about that, you can freeze and storage gametes. I don't know how hard it is in the USA.
About the main subject, I can share a community on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ (note that some people find the sub controversial)
41 isn't that old, and by this age there are more divorced than never married.
If someone has never had a serious relationship by the time they're 33 or so, it's a red flag 100% of the time in my experience.
Interesting.
A women for sale is pretty much a whore, so it doesn't seem they read into rather than taking you literally.
But even regardless, the fact that you took his word 'taken' in a literal sense rather than the compliment it was intended as, and here your defending it again rather than reflecting.
If your crossing off guys because they compliment you with common colloquial phrases that you take literally and negatively, well, you will indeed have a short list of suiters.
For some people, “why have you not been taken” may mean nothing more than “I really like you and I can’t believe you are available.”
And if it was a serious question asked early on, I would probably reply with something I don't like about myself, a weakness, if you will. It's not an entirely unreasonable question.
He said something that's a common expression, "taken", which is used for both men and women. It was clearly intended to be a compliment.
You chose an unlikely interpretation that clearly didn't match intent or common usage and decided to get offended about it.
After all your self description, I was wondering "how is she single?"
Right there, now I understand. I'd be out the door. Someone that is looking HARD for ways to be offended is not relationship material.
Think about your need to assign your meanings to other people's words. Maybe talk to a professional. This one thing can sink you.
Good luck!
Relationship material is subjective, and this is a really insensitive way to say you don't think you'd be compatible with them (some might say insensitivity makes someone "not relationship material")
For what it's worth, I'm a man and I understand why that language is off-putting to women. Also more interested in women who are more interested in being the taker than the takee, but I'm weird like that, I think gender scripts have most men seeking women looking for partners to take a more passive role (at least in some regards)
> And love you for being so active in this discussion ! I’m inviting you to my wedding metadat:)
Aww I'm honored, and FYI- I literally just sent out the invites for mine this coming August :D Cheers!
You might actually WANT a 2nd hand man, because those who have had a family before would have less qualms doing it again (if they have the means) and can decide fast knowing what they are getting into.
What you are short on is time, but I assume you don't want to compromise either. Someone who is widowed or divorce (that's not his fault) isn't a compromise in his quality as an individual, but one of time and some resources. But he would very much appreciate a mature woman who is open to his family.
Not gonna lie: if I didn't have kids and was single, I'd shoot for early 30's max until I was into my 50's. Unless you were a knockout who is just better than me (but then you wouldn't want me either). But having kids changes that equation immensely, because I'd appreciate the partner aspect much more because there is less pressure to have multiple kids.
Might help! I remember thinking this was a cool approach.
Option 1: Expand the pool - learn to be turned on by and interested in a wider variety of people.
Option 2: Convert an existing relationship, perhaps a platonic friendship, to a mutually beneficial partnership.
Option 3: Genuinely give up, allow yourself to relieve yourself of any expectations, and try to become mindful of the internal pressures you are applying on yourself as a reaction to your own childhood etc.
Option 1 I have really really done. I’ve dated such a huge variety…
What are your expectations of your potential partner?
If politics are occasionally allowed on here, maybe that would be, too.
Also, everyone is already on tinder, hinge, bumble, grindr etc.
Most were organized using Meetup.com, and today, the site's 'Hacker News' topic lists a number of groups around the world.[2] Also relatively recent is this 2019 submission of a list of groups that has some meta discussion.[3] Raised there is a salient question: What, really, distinguishes an HN meetup from any other tech meetup?
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?query=hn%20meetup&prefix=true & https://hn.algolia.com/?query=hacker%20news%20meetup&prefix=...
[2] https://www.meetup.com/topics/hacker-news/
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19264764
Dating apps tend to skew male, iirc, and it's a problem. I doubt they typically skew that far male.
I believe female representation has improved here over the years, but it probably still skews very strongly male.
Another thing might be what 'sources' for interaction you consider, dates/hookups/meetings vs. people you already know. Lots of people meet each other by proximity, like at work, special interest groups (like sports clubs), volunteer work, conferences etc. If you consider what friends you might have and how you got to meet and know them, the same source might be a place to find someone to become more than friends with.
Lastly, is there a risk of forcing the issue, "looking" for someone to play a specific role instead of having a single interaction grow into more interactions, and then get to friendship/intimacy after that etc. Most of the long standing relationships around me (and my own) are based on organic growth.
It might help to analyze what makes you feel attracted to someone. What were the moments, characteristics, or sensations that inspired you to conclude you were attracted to that 10%?
However, I will say that for the 10%, there was nothing that extremely bothered me, that they were fine (nice-looking enough, smart enough, good listener enough, nothing mind-blowing - not looking for super models or master conversationalists). If I felt I could tolerate them for a second date, I'd go on one.
What's wrong with being judgmental? You've allowed yourself to be at various junctures but often seem to feel guilty about it later. I do sympathize: "Judgmental" doesn't have a great connotation. Yet decisive and discerning do and signify something similar.
As you've noted, it's not essential you discuss this with a universe of strangers. I do hope you're comfortable with your judgmental side with others you're closed to so you can get to the bottom of the misalignment between initial indicia of attraction and the factors that make a relationship with you successful in the long term.
This comment largely confirms my thesis about you: You're someone who has spent your life trying to be good in various senses and through various ways. You put a ton of pressure on yourself. A lot of good can flow from that for the people towards whom you direct your goodness and for yourself as you've developed a reputation as someone who does good things. It can also be costly because despite our conditioning, our striving to be higher purer beings, we're still animals with various needs some of which are more difficult to acknowledge. Sometimes we desperately want conflicting things.