> we’re not acknowledging how traumatic it is to be laid off.
> Being laid off is an emotionally shocking experience. It’s unexpected. It’s jarring. It throws everything off-kilter.
that depends on severance package. Can't say for other industries, in tech we're exceptionally lucky - the packages are large, and it isn't traumatic, it is a chance to finally update resume and find a better paying job. Speaking from personal experience in 2009, the worst tech hiring market since 2002, took me 1 month to find a job :) And it is hardly ever unexpected. Usually everybody knows almost for sure. Except may be really small startups where risk/volatility is naturally part of the game.
I enjoy what I do. But I also make sure to remind myself that I will enjoy many things. Lots of companies have interesting tech puzzles. Losing a job should be like losing the daily crossword. Enjoyable, but hardly unique.
yep, as i said a chance to find a better job. If company does layoffs, it is most probably because the things haven't been going great in a lot of senses, ie. the things have rotten to the point that amputation is needed. I saw a number of layoffs through different companies (i happen to work in enterprise software, a pretty rotten area), and i don't remember anybody feeling like they lost their dream job.
I understand that, but I think that the piece is more related to the emotional and feelings of the people that is left behind. I know many people that was layoff and for them, money wasn´t the issue, but they couldn´t deal with the fact of being layed off. I don't know, I have been layoff once and inmediately I went to a trip in Japan, couldn't care less but those guys, even one of my closest friends were very sad even months from the fact. :(
> that depends on severance package. Can't say for other industries, in tech we're exceptionally lucky - the packages are large,
If only. What is this "package" you speak of?! :-)
I've been laid off a number of times, or had contracts end, sometimes abruptly, sometimes with ample notice, over the years.
Every time, the severance was precisely 0. No exceptions, whether it was standard employment or a contract. Yes, I work in tech as a SWE. No, they were not ended for bad reasons. In every case the terms just evaluated to 0 or didn't have severance terms.
I'm hopefully about to start a new job, and the terms on offer do not include any severance package no matter how long the service, but they are good in other ways. My previous job was the same. To be honest, because I've never received a severance package, it didn't occur to me to ask about it either of these times!
one guy back then at Sun got into 3 layoffs over several years, each time getting as the severance - being a longtimer - a year worth of a very good Senior Staff salary and each time coming back to Sun in a few months (the requirement to repay pro-rated severance in case of being hired back had been already dropped by then :)
I got laid off a few years ago and I immediately bought a plane ticket to Spain to do the Camino de Santiago for a month. Ended up staying almost 3 months.
Of course I was lucky that I was single, in tech, w/ a high(er) salary that allowed me to do that, but it was a positively, life-changing turning point for me.
Since then, I've never re-joined the grind of FTE.
People get way too attached to their companies. Employment is a mercenary relationship. Your company will terminate your relationship for a dollar. You should be willing to let your employer collapse for a dollar (assuming immediate new job start).
This is true. Employment for a lifetime is a thing of another historical moment. Now it's all temporary, you don't work your whole life in a company nor they assure you a job until you retire. So, in a way, you have to understand that you are disposable to the corporate machinery.
Also, this is terrible, I know, I don't like it either but it's the current instituional arrangement where we live. Still, being layoff is a burden because it shock your core values and make you doubt of your true self and worth. Some people can't get pass it.
If you value the opportunity to be a "company man", you can still do that, even as a software engineer. It just requires a shift in priorities. Those jobs absolutely exist.
> Employment for a lifetime is a thing of another historical moment
Not sure such moment has ever existed. If employment was lifetime, it was either slavery or exploitation of a workforce that lacked mobility. There was maybe a generation of baby boomers that got lucky with a generation of companies that grew up with them and is still paying for their pensions, but otherwise history is not kind to workers.
There’s getting attached and there is just having an expectation of stability. It’s a poor assumption that even as a well-performing employee that your job is secure day to day. I have goals and aspirations, all of which go on hold when an event like this happens.
The superficial, shallow, and fleeting nature of work relationships is the primary reason I’m working to become financially independent from the system. I like working, but I don’t like being in a situation where I can be trashed at a moments notice and completely upheave my day-to-day and having to readjust my goals.
I’ve become so disenchanted with working for somebody else, during the pandemic I discovered how much happier I could be focusing exclusively on hobbies and familial/friend/romantic relationships so all of these get prioritized above working most of the time for me.
Sure, if things go to shit to the point where I am defending my property, the money wont matter.
But if I have ~$2MM in an index fund just sitting around, even a conservative 7.5% return YOY will afford me $150,000 per year in potential cash to pull out (without depleting the original principle) that nets me 112,500 after the maximum theoretical capital gains (just assume a naïve, flat 25%) which is more than enough to keep the lights on if I own my home, car, and do 90% of building maintenance myself.
The advantage here is that this part of the system is what the ultra wealthy rely on to amass more wealth so it's going to be one of the last institutions in society to fall apart because the wealthy and powerful will fight tooth and nail to make sure they can keep making money.
Oh my god, the FIRE community makes me laugh so hard. Just 4 years ago people were talking about how they only needed 4% average yearly gains, $48,000 per year in income, and inflation would stay at 2%.
It turns out that you can't eat money, and that real things become scarcer every year.
5 years from now people will be laughing at your numbers for being low :)
Nobody you talk to bats an eye. You can’t know if places/hiring managers passed at an earlier stage.
5 jobs in 5 years is a red flag for some. 5 in 5 years plus a single 4-year long stint where you earned a promotion is a much better story IMO, but every hiring manager is different and plenty make the change every 12-18 months work for them.
Note, many companies are required by security policies (which are themselves required due to regulators or customers that demand it) to immediately cut off access to employees for all services before notice of termination.
That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship, but there's a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice.
Why is it a rough thing in terms of a human relationship? It's good that by revoking all access, both parties can confirm it before termination and the terminated employee is free from any responsibilities for something related with their access which happens in the future.
Well presumably because it doesn't really matter. The type of org that will do that is the type of org where employees are a widget, to be added, replaced or removed as required for the machine to operate. Anyone comfortable with working in such a situation must acknowledge that the org does not care about their feelings, why would that suddenly change during the termination process?
This is recent knowledge though which only became commonplace after Millenials entered the workforce. There is still an army of people out there who are teaching their kids completely antiquated labor relations knowledge under the delusion that a job can be "for life" these days.
There are people in their 50s and 60s who are learning the hard way (particularly in 2020-2021) how much their company doesn't actually care about them.
What's different in Germany (and most other European countries) is that there are legal requirements to give Y weeks of notice if someone has worked in the company for X years. Also, for layoffs ("betriebsbedingte Kündigung") there are certain rules that have to be followed, i.e. people who were hired later are generally the first on the chopping block, plus other criteria. What's not different is that most of the time you will be shown the door as quickly as possible. You get your notice time, and you get paid until your actual termination date, but you spend that time at home ("freigestellt").
My experience in Sweden has been that employees are in normal circumstances trusted to work faithfully during their full notice period of three months. There's an informal understanding that one might not be as productive during those three months, but not that one would be actively malicious.
Seems crazy to hire people in the first place that you don't trust!
This is what I was getting at - the US seems to have a hostile relationship between employees and employers. I suspect this is mostly due to legal regulations and not necessarily due to a mistrusting culture per se, but I don't really know.
There is that option too: if they want to get rid of you specifically (as opposed to just "reducing the headcount"), but the regulations say they can't legally get rid of you because they would e.g. have to get rid of people that were hired after you first, they can offer you an "Aufhebungsvertrag" ("termination/severance agreement") where you voluntarily agree to your employment being terminated in exchange for a (often quite sizable) sum of money.
They are. Its the result of shallow thinking, socialism and pure graft. People don't consider there are considerable downsides to these regulations, and simply think "protecting the workers" is good.
> What's not different is that most of the time you will be shown the door as quickly as possible. You get your notice time, and you get paid until your actual termination date, but you spend that time at home ("freigestellt").
No, not really. Companies have that option but it's almost never used, only in extreme cases (e.g. when the company has a real reason to assume the employee would misuse their continued access).
This also happens in Germany, but it depends on the case and isn't a hard rule. It's more likely to happen for people fired for cause, or if there are any other reasons that trust broke down. And even then it does not change anything about the employement duration, the employee is simply asked to not come into work anymore but is paid the remaining period as defined in the law or the contract.
I understand the reasoning, but then shouldn't someone leaving a job voluntarily just stop showing up without any warning as well? This would avoid problems such as retaliation by the employer, etc.
It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
In most US states, you do not need to give any notice to your employer when quitting. However not giving notice can burn a future bridge. Similar to how a poorly done layoff, (such-as coinbase) can prevent talented candidates from considering the company.
>Similar to how a poorly done layoff, (such-as coinbase)
Coinbase offered 3.5 months' severance pay minimum, plus additional severance pay based on employee tenure. If that's a poorly done layoff, what's a well-done one?
I think the bigger problem with Coinbase is how they rescinded job offers. Management either didn't know a layoff was coming a few weeks ahead of time or it didn't get communicated to recruiters.
Have yet to experience a rescinded job offer but god damn that’s my biggest fear in life. Moving to a new place for a new job and getting royally fucked. Bit less of an issue nowadays with more remote jobs, though.
Just went through this on a move to Austin from Chicago. I was legitimately scared for my life until the end of my first day at the new job. I have savings, of course, but the pressure is still there.
One tactic I have seen employees take is to agree to relocate within the first N days of starting a new job. This gives the employee the ability to start work, making sure the company is not going to rescind the offer, and to generally get a feel for things before they completely uproot themselves to a new city.
>It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
Well on the flip side I know many people who've received severance pay after being let go, but I don't know anyone who's provided labor to a company for months after leaving.
If it's someone I had a good relationship with and they ask me a question, I'd probably answer too. But I do consider this different than what I meant e.g. completing actual tasks for the company.
That is completing actual tasks for the company. You are effectively acting as a consultant for them. And I have heard of a number of cases of people actually coming back to fix something briefly, which is even further in that direction.
Sure, coming back to fix something is absolutely completing actual tasks for the company. But I certainly disagree you can generalize answering a question as "effectively acting as a consultant for [the company]".
Someone who replaced you but you don't know reaches out asking for help on their work? Or you're being asked questions you'd need to dig in to? "Sorry, I don't work there anymore".
But answering a text message from someone you had a good relationship with, who is asking a question in good faith, the answer to which you can recall without effort? Wouldn't agree with calling that consulting.
Well, the power relationship is a bit unbalanced... The employee is providing labour, the company is exploiting it, think it's not a 1:1 comparison to be made.
How are companies "exploiting" labor? Was the employee forced to sign the employment contract against their will? Was the employment contract not consented to by both parties upon a set of agreed-upon terms?
If the latter, how do you justify that as "exploitation"?
I understand and sympathise with the compassionate aspects of the issue, but "giving notice" need only mean paying out a few weeks' time, rather than allowing/requiring the employee to keep coming in.
Well yes, in addition to being cut off from resources, you're generally asked to clean out your desk and enjoy your vacation. Some places will immediately escort you from the building.
Sounds harsh if you're not used to it. But it makes a lot of sense within the industry, and no one's feelings get hurt in practice.
There's nothing legally stopping you from not going into to work tomorrow. You don't even have to speak to them ever again as long as you make sure to return any of their equipment that you have in your possession.
A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen.
Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
>A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen.
Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time).
Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office.
It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal.
Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it.
>Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
There are a few exceptions. E.g. the UK is more like the US in terms of job security.
But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people. This ties into the social well-fare system which does not like people entering it for frivolous reasons. Especially people close to retirement age who are effectively unemployable because they are so expensive to get rid off. Which is an interesting dynamic where people close to retirement have to constantly fear layoffs not because they are useless but because they are a liability for their employer.
Mostly companies not following the rules end up engaged in expensive court cases where the judge typically rules against them unless they followed the rules. Court mediated settlements tend to be governed by simple formulas based on years of service, age, etc. So, mostly companies do the right thing and you typically get a fair offer in line with that as they prefer for things not to escalate that way.
I've been through this process once when Nokia started laying off masses of people. I got caught up in one of those waves and they gave me a generous deal and even some startup funding.
Usually, they can fire you and then make you work the notice period, which really sucks. I was lucky and they gave me gardening leave instead. So, I literally dropped everything and never did a minute of work for them again. Out of the building five minutes after they gave me my notice. They did not kick me out but just told me that I did not have to do anything anymore. Going cold turkey like that is not fun. In the period after that I bootstrapped my first startup and managed to get my former employer to fund it. Great experience overall.
But still, getting layed off was a shock. I had to do the walk of shame to the unemployment agency. That really sucked and they treat you like you are useless scum. You are just a number in the system. I literally went from being a principal engineer that just got a raise because to a great performance review to being out on the street dealing with crap like that. The good news was that it wasn't personal. They needed to cut some percentage and my team got squeezed in the middle. Corporate politics basically.
>But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people.
Nope, in Austria employers can fire most people without any reason. Restrictions may apply to vulnerable people like close to retiring age and mass layoffs, but firing one Average Joe who isn't considered vulnerable has no rules or restrictions.
So I think the UK has better job security than some EU countries.
Look, it's been really useful to know that Austria has very, very different rules around layoffs (honestly, I would not have expected this to be the case), but it's potentially worth just specifying Austria (rather than Europe) in your posts about layoffs/firings, as the laws are very, very different across countries.
It's a rule, but it's not a criminal offence for an employer to ignore those rules if they're happy to take their chances in an employment tribunal. Given cases are taking a year to even reach a hearing now thanks to our incompetent government, it's no surprise that employers will chance it. See P&O: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60789612
> it's not a criminal offence for an employer to ignore those rules if they're happy to take their chances in an employment tribunal
I'm not an employment lawyer, but to the best of my knowledge this is incorrect - mass redundancies of 20+ people need to be notified to the government in advance, and failure to do so carries criminal penalties.
P&O seems to have escaped this requirement (at least for now) owing to maritime employment being a special case and jurisdictional issues
You're both right: for >=20 redundancies, it is merely something the employee can take up at tribunal.
For >=100 redundancies, notice to the Secretary of State is required and not giving notice is a criminal offence, by both the company, and also any officer/director/similar who is involved in not giving notice: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/194
A level five fine on the standard scale is (since 2015) technically unlimited, so it's not a toothless law. Not sure if anyone has even been prosecuted though.
There are two aspects here: one is cutting off your work accesses at once, that's for sure legal everywhere unionized or not. BUT there's also the payment part - the company still has to pay you for the notice period (different periods for different countries/industries/unions).
Those numbers are relatively meaningless when compared as each country counts unemployed people differently.
In Germany if you are unemployed and the unemployment agency sends you to a course, like to learn German, you are no longer part of the unemployment statistic even though you're still receiving welfare.
That’s just a lazy lie. Go ahead and revoke production access, VPN even, but email and SaaS chat? That’s just plain US attitude about “termination”; the digital equivalent of publicly escorting you out of the building (without even carrying the box of personalia).
No, he is referring to countries like france where there is protection setup to make it hard for company to have whole QA team fired cuz product was shipped and they wont be needed for few months etc
some might cut you off from work and you will end up getting payed for nothing but thats on business to decide on.
In my country, NL, employees often stay on for up to 2 months after they've been 'fired'. It's standard practice and people usually just continue to work and transfer stuff to other departments before they leave.
Yeah, that's an option as well. Or you stay on the payroll for the notice period, usually 3 months in Germany and enjoy your time off. Both are fine and depend on the circumstances. I had both in my life, working until the end (basically, there was somr vacation to be taken at the end) and stopping to work when I handed in the notice or was given the notice (both happened). Personally, I prefer the latter option.
Many are not required, but do it anyway of course.
Either because they're shitting their pants (irrationally believing that these people are both willing to commit, and capable of committing great acts of sabotage on their way out). Or they rationally understand that their internal security measures are a total shitshow (and so the potential for sabotage is real), or that some of these people are rigthfully disgruntled (hence, the motive for sabotage is real).
Or (as I suspect) because it helps them emotionally distance themselves from the people whose lives will be (at the very least) dinged by being on the receiving end of these events. "Why did we let you find out about the layoff by having your account locked? Because we knew you were unstable and vindictive, and basically a walking liability to the company all along."
In a time when there's 10-20% unemployment, I'd profoundly disagree with you. But we're living in a time where there is constantly an enormous shortage of labor. It's unbelievably easy to get a job right now, especially if you're in tech.
Companies that are laying you off are doing you a favor: you'd be making much more money working for someone else!
If anything, in the US, there's reason to believe there will be an even lower labor supply in the future with the baby boomers retiring, a generation larger than the ones replacing it.
> It's unbelievably easy to get a job right now, especially if you're in tech.
It's not true, at least not universally. I have plenty of examples when very competent people, no less than seniors, spend months - in today's market conditions. A big chunk of the reason is this - you're laid off, so something is wrong, and often it takes time to get to interview - so you're without job, and you're offered inferior salary, and the time isn't on your side. Many people don't specialize in searching for work, they specialize in e.g. software.
You in practice have to disclose the last date you worked for your most recent employer which at a minimum makes you look very strange for quitting without another job lined up if you try to play it that way.
The uncertainty leads to anxiety which can be overwhelming especially for people who value a lot of things in life outside of a Zoom call and don't want their lives disrupted because of work.
You can say that all you want, but it still hits hard to be suddenly and unexpected out of a job. I think for me the lack of closure (I never did really find out what precipitated the layoffs) and lack of ability to say goodbye (remote company and my slack access was removed while I was informed) were hardest. To work somewhere for any amount of time and just suddenly not, of your own volition, is a really hard thing to cope with.
Please don't go "harsh and critical" or cross into personal attack. We're going for the opposite here: thoughtful, respectful, and above all curious conversation across differences.
People complain that being laid off is cold and impersonal. People also complain that there are not enough regulations and laws around employment.
The reason layoffs are cold and impersonal is that it’s a very fraught event for the company and lawsuits are quite common. So because of all the rules and regulations, the safest play is to say as little as possible to avoid any lawsuit. Therefore you will get very little reasoning and no emotional support from your former employer.
I'm not sure I would mind the impersonal firing. Let's get down to business, tell me what I need to know, how much money I get, when do I get it, where do I bring the computer.
What I assume would bother me more is the worrying or fake compassion for me. We were not a family, we were "friends" only by convenience, the company didn't actually have an important mission other than making money and I know it. If I was just fired by you, pretending to feel bad (or even actually feeling bad) for me doesn't help me. I am already thinking about my next steps: I need to inform my wife, rethink my finances, and likely start looking for a new job.
Disclaimer: I was never fired yet, so of course I might be full of shot. And how one reacts also probably depends on which phase of your life you are in and how easily you think you get another job.
As tech workers we're in a great position to move the needle a bit more towards a cooperative/worker owned model for our livelihoods and careers. That would address a lot of the problems here around the impersonality of it all, having to lose meaningful relationships, obscurity around business decisions, etc.
It doesn't work, for the simple fact as not everyone works the same. As the saying is, in most teams 20% of the people do 80% of the work and move the team forward, while the rest do fill the gaps, and are more of helper, yet want the same comp.
Communism and socialism failed... in 52 countries. Yes, there are exceptions, on small scale. (Co-ops, and small partnerships). But in large scale, it doesn't work.
Law Firms are one example where it could work, but even there you have Partners and Associates. And even Partners have levels (Equity Partners, Junior Partners, Full Partners... etc).
Communism can work if you can kick out bad actors. That’s why kibbutzim have historically worked. But for any sufficiently large system that’s not possible, which is why it failed to govern countries.
Communism where disabled people are consider “bad actors” who “don’t contribute” loses a lot of its appeal. If you can kick people out seemingly arbitrarily then it’s not a social safety net.
I think by "bad actors" they meant psychopaths and malignant narcissists who would aim to take over the system for their own gain. People like Stalin. The problem at scale is figuring out who these people are, and keeping them out of exactly that system. Unfortunately even the American system of checks and balances can't really keep psychopaths out of high office, so it's an unsolved problem of how to deal with this.
Communism and socialism are two very different things. I'm not sure most Americans appreciate how different the are, and tend to conflate the two.
Communism itself has many flavors, and while soviet communism failed (arguably because it was just tsarism with a different tsar), Chinese communism is still very much a working model and a very successful one (for some definitions of success.)
Democratic socialism is also well represented today, with some stand-out performers in Europe.
As with all social systems, capitalism included, there are pros and cons, haves and have-nots. Some systems promote equality, some promote huge winners and losers. Naturally US businesses tend to model the national system (the only thing that matters is money) which typically makes them poor places to work.
But companies don't have to follow the national model - there are plenty of exploitive companies in Europe, and more than a few humane companies in the US.
What socialism? What communism? We were talking about having some sort of protection for the workers. What is it with Americans that they think that if they do anything to make people's lives easier next thing you know you're Soviet Russia?
How does a cooperative raise money without being shareholder owned?
Clubhouse has something like 80 employees and raised $110mm. Is every employee expected to bring $1.4 mil to the table when joining? Seems like it would reduce the pool of available candidates.
Just unionizing can really move the needle on getting companies to eliminate some of the casual cruelty. Unfortunately approximately everyone on HN is a temporarily embarrassed 10xer who thus feels no solidarity with their fellows.
The security and stability that a union provides are real, unlike your “lazy union” boogeyman. They result in better working conditions and better products for customers.
FWIW, it also sucks being on the other side of a layoff. The people who survive are now constantly under threat of more layoffs and given two or more times their normal workload to carry the work of their prior colleagues. It's also harder to GTFO and find another job because all your prior colleagues are now on the market (not so much now that remote is more popular, yay). It's definitely an "I'm stuck, and this stinks" situation.
My first layoff was horrible. After losing my job I was drinking heavily for almost half a year and basically lost everything. It's a miracle I even survived the experience in some ways because things got pretty dark at one point.
And to be fair it was largely my fault for not being able to cope, but the brutality of the process was something that was difficult for me to understand at the time. I'm autistic and I tend to be very naive about human relationships. I was working at this place for about 5 years and thought the people I worked with were my friends, even my boss. When I got let go there was no warning - which I now know is normal. I was just finishing up one Friday afternoon and I got a call from my boss basically telling me not to come back on Monday. I didn't understand... I asked why and got some BS explanation, but I took it seriously and tried to propose alternative solutions confused as to why they weren't listening. I then tried to thank them for the time and say goodbye to the team, but I immediately got cut off from all my communication tools (I was working remote at the time). I was so stupid I actually thought they'd call me on Monday and ask me to come back because this was so out of character for how my friends normally treated me. Man I was such an idiot...
Obviously now I know this is standard corporate practise, but at the time it was such a surprise that someone would do something so cruel. The experience has completely altered the trust I have for people in my life, probably irreparably, and I'm now constantly on edge about the same thing happening to me again.
I know layoffs are something that have to happen, but these experiences are hard on people and it's crazy to me how unsympathetic employers can be. Why don't they find it harder to turn sometimes life upside down? Why don't they ever seem to care emotionally about what they're doing?
This is good article. Layoffs are something we should probably talk about more as a society.
If you know someone who's been layed off, please make sure they know you're there for them. Just knowing they're not alone and that people are there and care can take so much weight their shoulders.
> I was so stupid I actually thought they'd call me on Monday and ask me to come back because this was so out of character for how my friends normally treated me. Man I was such an idiot...
This doesn't sound like you're an idiot to me, it sounds like modern corporations are fucked up and we've just gotten used to it. Your reaction was pretty normal for someone who hadn't seen it before.
This is why I don’t work at a corporation, because the entire model is awful. It’s great at making money, but that’s about the only redeeming quality as far as I’m concerned. If corporations were countries, they would be dictatorships. If corporations are people as the Supreme Court would have us believe, they are most certainly psychopaths.
As much as people complain about academia here, I’ve found a home where layoffs don’t have to happen. There’s a permanent home here for people with tenure, guaranteed for life. We vote on who our boss is and they serve a limited term, after which they return to the rank and file. We have a democratic body that has power at the university level and we all get a vote. We vote on practically every decision made in the department.
And even if you don’t have tenure and there is no need for you in the future, you don’t find out about that on Friday with your income, healthcare, relationships, and housing all in question by Monday. How anxiety inducing! We tell you at least a semester in advance instead of escorting you out like a potential arsonist looking to burn the place to the ground. And imagine that, the place is still standing.
Don’t get me wrong there’s a lot wrong with the model at many levels — it’s political and dogmatic, inefficient and bureaucratic. But at least it’s a different model that doesn’t have to be cruel by nature.
I found my experience with academia to be just as anxiety inducing. Fledgling lab, a half dozen PhD candidates and a boss who really wanted funding. Many they were all stressed about getting papers accepted, getting grants and so forth. And very personally, you know it was up to them to get it done.
At least at the company I don't have to worry about that shit as directly as a worker.
There are always stresses at work relating to the job that needs to be done, sure. I guess if you want to be a worker then academia would be stressful, because the job of professor is more like startup founder than employee.
While applying for grants can be stressful if you don’t get one, there’s always another. You get 3 attempts to apply for a CAREER award! The same goes for papers; if it’s rejected just shop it at the next venue and it’ll be accepted eventually if the research is quality. It can be stressful but no single thing is ever do or die. They say “publish ir perish” but academia is filled with 2nd and 3rd chances. I feel like a lot of the stress is self inflicted by type-a personalities who need to be perfect all the time, people who never got a B in their lives.
Even on tenure track, you know you’re guaranteed a job for 6 years as long as you are trying and making some progress. But if you aren’t performing at the level of getting tenure, that’s made clear way ahead of time in the (rare) cases I’ve seen in my department.
From what I hear from other academics on here, that world is way more cutthroat. There is even a saying "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."
I think academia is pretty sweet for the people with tenure, agreed. It's just hell for the postdocs, lecturers, adjuncts, ph.d. students without funding, etc., who have no stability, no voice, and paltry income in the system.
As someone who was told at the beginning of the term that he would have no job at the end of it, I'm not sure that foreknowledge was really less anxiety inducing than being told with no warning. It was more like knowing the end of the world was coming, and you were powerless to change it. And equally cruel, I'd say.
Adjuncts and postdocs yes. Ph.D. students without funding... quit now, that's a really bad deal.
But lecturers not so much anymore, that position is changing across academia. I'm a lecturer and I have a renewable 5 year contract where I'm guaranteed a job for that time. That's more job stability than most people have, where they can be canned on any given Friday. As far as voice, lecturers have a vote in the faculty senate, and they have a vote in our department. They even have a vote in choosing our chair! How many workers get a vote in choosing their boss? Lecturers can even become chair or vice chair if they want; our current vice chair was a lecturer. As far as income, it's definitely lower than industry and tenured faculty, but lecturers also have a full 4 months off every year, which is something money can't buy in almost any profession. YMMV at your school, but like I said, the lecturer role is becoming much more attractive at many schools.
> It was more like knowing the end of the world was coming, and you were powerless to change it. And equally cruel, I'd say.
Help me try to understand, what would not be cruel? The tone of this thread seems to be that canning a worker with not enough warning is cruel, but you're saying too much warning is just as cruel? You're given 14 weeks to find a new job, and they'll pay you that entire time. It's pretty much the softest let-go I can think of. What process would you prefer?
Well many corporations are terrible, but there are underlying issues as well (from a US standpoint anyway) such as a litigious society, companies must be guarded in communications around terminations as the employees may sue and any communications will be used in court against the company, also providing "notice" which is different from severance is generally ill advised, I would encourage companies to provide severance packages, but rarely "notice", specifically in a highly sensitive roles like Sysadmin or Dev. as the number of storied around data and IP sabotage and theft are pretty well known, severance softens the blow economically for the outgoing employee(s) while protecting the company.
Thanks for sharing your experience with such honesty. I don’t think you’re an idiot for how you handled the situation. You just didn’t know better and that’s simply unfortunate. It’s amazing that you pulled yourself out of that rut.
I’ve not been laid off as part of a mass layoff, but I have been put on an impossible PiP because my new manager was not able to manipulate me despite his best efforts. At the time, I had no clue why I was put on PiP despite solid performance for the 7 months I was in the company (it was a startup and I didn’t have a direct manager for that time). I was in shock for 3 days but I pulled myself together and investigated the matter by speaking diplomatically with my manager. When I realised he could not answer any questions that would make the PiP “less impossible”, I realised that he just wanted me gone. I resigned the next day.
I look back at that layoff with gratitude:
1. I quit a toxic culture that was bringing out the worst in me
2. I re-calibrated my relationship with work. I no longer push myself all the time (at the time, that’s the only way I would relate to work - by going the extra mile every time)
3. I started a meditation practice that I still practice. It changed my entire outlook on work and life. My relationships are better and life is much much less stressful.
What the.. such a short notice, is that even legally allowed?
Every lay-off at the place I worked was always companied with a thank-you speech and a farewell present. They kept working as till they found a new job as well.
The specific situation I was referring to was when I was working as a contractor on a rolling contract so I had very little legal protections, nor was I entitled to severance. I had been contracting there for years so this came completely out of the blue.
I've had a similar things happen a couple of other times though, once during a mass layoff of the engineering department and the another time at a startup that ran out of money after a failed funding round. Both of those times I was kind of aware of the situation about a month ahead of time and was in a better financial situation so they went much smoother although it was still a very stressful few weeks.
I've never been fired, but I've seen people get fired for fairly trivial reasons. Basically, "we don't really like him and this is a good excuse to get rid of him".
It depends on the jurisdiction, but it's legal in lots of places. Even in some countries where there are employee protections, it's possible to do without much consequence. For example, in the UK an employee could take the employer to a employment tribunal.. in a year's time. Even if we're talking about a true layoff/redundancy situation, it can happen, particularly if there's a payoff involved.
I went through a Layoff a few years back (pre-covid but working remotely). Phone call with my manager + HR, all access terminated immediately (though I did get to say goodbye to a few coworkers via Linkedin). I'd been there a while so at least the severance was pretty decent and more than covered the transition while job hunting.
I have been through this too so I think I know how you felt. To make it worse for me I was on a visa when it happened to me and was on a ticking time bomb of 60 days. I even had an anxiety attack but no health insurance because I forgot to sign up for Cobra amid all the craziness. I had to interview crazily and found a job in 5 weeks and then had to uproot my entire life and move to the other side of the country for the new job. It was followed by months of drinking and depression and barely surviving at the new job.
Its been 4 years but even today I wonder if its a uniquely American issue having never faced sudden layoffs while working in SE Asia and Europe. I cannot bear this sudden banishment from the herd and having so called friends suddenly stop talking and communicating. Its scarred me and if my wife and daughter were not from the US , I would leave to go work in a different country in a heartbeat.
It happens here in Europe too - or at least it does here in the UK. I think the US might be worse for it though.
Your situation sounds absolutely horrific. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
I know someone going through something similar at the moment and I'm really worried about him. He moved to the UK for work and recently got layed off unexpectedly. Now he's in a position where he can't afford his rent and he can't afford school tuition for his son. He might end up being forced to take his son out of school and move back home which he obviously doesn't want to do as his family are settled here now. His son doesn't really know anything else and see's the UK as his home.
When I went through what I went through I just had my girlfriend to worry about. If I had a child I don't know how I would have coped to be honest. It's so much harder when people depend on you and you know you're letting them down.
Companies love to promote the idea that work is a second family.
It isn't, it's a cut throat place, where even "work friends/family" would throw you under the bus for a promotion or a raise.
You should always keep a distance from coworkers. They could report you to HR for anything even after hours.
I was laid off from my last job (of just shy of 27 years).
It was entirely expected. In fact, I lasted about two years longer than I thought would be the case.
The corporation shed all of its non-domestic engineering (it was a Japanese company). It also let go a bunch of other folks; including many in Japan, which was a big deal. My whole team was let go. A couple of engineers had moved on, beforehand.
I stayed until the end, because I wanted to be there for the team. I also knew that the company would provide a substantial “discretionary reimbursement.” They don’t give “severance,” and are careful to mention that this is not “severance.” The reason that it’s not “severance,” is because they use it as leverage to get you to sign a “non-disparagement” agreement.
I got a year’s salary. It was capped.
I had no problem signing the agreement. Even though it was a layoff, I had (still have) no resentment against the company. I feel that many of the decisions that were made, leading up to the layoff, were terrible, but I was not consulted. In fact, my warnings went unheeded (it was entirely predictable, years in advance), but working for them was one of my proudest life achievements. They were (for how much longer, I’m not sure) one of the best imaging companies on Earth. I worked as a peer, with some of the top engineers and scientists in the world.
As I said, the layoff, itself, was no surprise. What was a surprise, however, was the way I was treated by the industry, after the layoff. That treatment prompted me to just toss in the towel, and decide that I was in early retirement.
I’m sure that I could have gotten a fairly decently-paying job, if I had been willing to accept some pretty shabby treatment, and spend a couple of years, desperately looking, but I didn’t need to. All of the engineers that worked for me, eventually did quite well (we were a pretty leet team). As their manager, the rules were different, for me. I was not interested in another management position. I wanted to return to my engineering roots.
I knew that this would be a “hard sell,” so had spent many years, building a portfolio, and was willing to take a significant pay cut (I could afford it, and it would have been an insane bargain for other companies). I was quite willing to work for “risky,” or high-pressure environments, like a startup. I was looking for work that interested me. I’d spent my career, doing work that did not interest me, and having what work I did, misused or sidelined.
I just didn’t expect the incredibly shabby treatment that I received. It was a shock.
I know that my engineers were treated more respectfully, than was I. I’m pretty sure that my background as a manager had something to do with it, and that I was older than most of them. My network was pretty much useless, as they all knew me as a manager, so I had to go in, “cold.”
As it turned out, it was probably the best thing that could have happened. The last five years, have been some of the happiest in my life. My physical and mental health have drastically improved. Once I got over my butthurt, I was fine. I have worked harder than I ever did, as a wage slave, and have learned more than I dreamed I would (I’ve always been a good learner).
I have done all this work on my terms, using my development techniques, and at my pace (which is actually about five times greater than when I was working). I tend to be working from sunup, to way past sundown, seven days a week. I love working, and working hard. If no one is willing to pay me, I'll do it for free. My GH ID is solid green[0] (not an exaggeration. I only have one day, in the last year, when I wasn’t checking in Swift work, and that was because I was taking a Swift class, on that day).
I’m very fortunate, in being able to do this. It was the result of decades of frugality, conservative fiscal discipline, humble living, loyalty, and hard work. Old-fashioned stuff, that g...
I got laid off from FedEx in 2009. I had worked there for a long time but most of it was part time and I had just become full time so I was on the chopping block. They made me work a whole shift in the cold with everybody acting all sketchy just to tell like 5 of us not to come back at the end of the shift. That pissed me off the most, getting that last little bit of labor out of us. I got a nice severance package and was able to collect unemployment but it did a number on me mentally along with all the other 2008 era financial nonsense.
I want a new US law that will incriminate managers of public companies when they publicly lie about upcoming layoffs. The typical “there is no plan for layoffs at this time”.
This is lying to the investors about the status of the company, lying to the employees who keep on with their lives while they should be looking for new options.
The European way? Announce it months in advance (which is when it was decided anyway) that you are in the process of layoffs and align with both investors and employees about the plan.
A big co announced to its employees 2 weeks before their assessment that the percentage of employees that will need “improvement” increased from 3% to 10%, and that this year they will offer in lieu payments for those who do not want to do the “improvement program”.
Your wording is very odd, but if I understand correctly the company announced it would be putting 10% of employee's on an improvement plan, with your belief the goal being termination, and they offered buy out options of employees would voluntary separate?
If so, then that is not a layoff, and it often a common practice to avoid layoff, people already on the fence, close to retirement, etc will take the buyout.
There are penalties for making false statements to investors, which can include SEC coming down on you or an investor lawsuit. Statements made represent what we know at that time. Things have changed from January till now. Consumer sentiment is in the gutter and we don't know when the interest rates hikes will stop. Interest rates have a huge impact on public companies due the debt public companies carry. What you're seeing is the tightening of cash flow. Companies are cutting back on expenses. This has a huge impact downstream. I would hate to be at a SaaS company because new implementations are getting pulled and deal flow has dried up. Some of these companies are public. What they knew two months ago and what they know are completely different.
My biggest annoyance is that a bunch of large public companies did stock buybacks when the market was at record highs. Now that debt is expensive, doing secondary offerings just completes the buy high sell low scenario and shows bad leadership.
My red flag goes up immediately as soon as any manager, or executive, starts making claims about no layoffs. The least they can do is provide enough severance that you have ample time to find something new without worrying about money.
These comments just makes me feel more afraid of entering the tech workforce. Yes, the above average pay given to you in your early to mid-career looks promising but it looks like it gets worse as you get old. My parents work in finance and I envy them for still having secure careers despite being that old. I haven't even seen them "upskilling" which is, as far as I could see, a very common practice in this field.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 234 ms ] thread> Being laid off is an emotionally shocking experience. It’s unexpected. It’s jarring. It throws everything off-kilter.
that depends on severance package. Can't say for other industries, in tech we're exceptionally lucky - the packages are large, and it isn't traumatic, it is a chance to finally update resume and find a better paying job. Speaking from personal experience in 2009, the worst tech hiring market since 2002, took me 1 month to find a job :) And it is hardly ever unexpected. Usually everybody knows almost for sure. Except may be really small startups where risk/volatility is naturally part of the game.
You can also enjoy many things outside of work.
Sounds like you picked two _really_ bad examples.
That totally depends on which countries you are in, and what kind of tech you are working with.
> And it is hardly ever unexpected. Usually everybody knows almost for sure.
I've never been laid off, but those sound like the exact opposite of everything I've seen from being around layoffs after 25 years in the industry.
If only. What is this "package" you speak of?! :-)
I've been laid off a number of times, or had contracts end, sometimes abruptly, sometimes with ample notice, over the years.
Every time, the severance was precisely 0. No exceptions, whether it was standard employment or a contract. Yes, I work in tech as a SWE. No, they were not ended for bad reasons. In every case the terms just evaluated to 0 or didn't have severance terms.
I'm hopefully about to start a new job, and the terms on offer do not include any severance package no matter how long the service, but they are good in other ways. My previous job was the same. To be honest, because I've never received a severance package, it didn't occur to me to ask about it either of these times!
It really depends where you work.
one guy back then at Sun got into 3 layoffs over several years, each time getting as the severance - being a longtimer - a year worth of a very good Senior Staff salary and each time coming back to Sun in a few months (the requirement to repay pro-rated severance in case of being hired back had been already dropped by then :)
Of course I was lucky that I was single, in tech, w/ a high(er) salary that allowed me to do that, but it was a positively, life-changing turning point for me.
Since then, I've never re-joined the grind of FTE.
Also, this is terrible, I know, I don't like it either but it's the current instituional arrangement where we live. Still, being layoff is a burden because it shock your core values and make you doubt of your true self and worth. Some people can't get pass it.
Not sure such moment has ever existed. If employment was lifetime, it was either slavery or exploitation of a workforce that lacked mobility. There was maybe a generation of baby boomers that got lucky with a generation of companies that grew up with them and is still paying for their pensions, but otherwise history is not kind to workers.
The superficial, shallow, and fleeting nature of work relationships is the primary reason I’m working to become financially independent from the system. I like working, but I don’t like being in a situation where I can be trashed at a moments notice and completely upheave my day-to-day and having to readjust my goals.
I’ve become so disenchanted with working for somebody else, during the pandemic I discovered how much happier I could be focusing exclusively on hobbies and familial/friend/romantic relationships so all of these get prioritized above working most of the time for me.
with the way governments are behaving these days, no amount of money will guarantee financial independence
a cache of canned beans and bottled water, however...
But if I have ~$2MM in an index fund just sitting around, even a conservative 7.5% return YOY will afford me $150,000 per year in potential cash to pull out (without depleting the original principle) that nets me 112,500 after the maximum theoretical capital gains (just assume a naïve, flat 25%) which is more than enough to keep the lights on if I own my home, car, and do 90% of building maintenance myself.
The advantage here is that this part of the system is what the ultra wealthy rely on to amass more wealth so it's going to be one of the last institutions in society to fall apart because the wealthy and powerful will fight tooth and nail to make sure they can keep making money.
Oh my god, the FIRE community makes me laugh so hard. Just 4 years ago people were talking about how they only needed 4% average yearly gains, $48,000 per year in income, and inflation would stay at 2%.
It turns out that you can't eat money, and that real things become scarcer every year.
5 years from now people will be laughing at your numbers for being low :)
5 jobs in 5 years is a red flag for some. 5 in 5 years plus a single 4-year long stint where you earned a promotion is a much better story IMO, but every hiring manager is different and plenty make the change every 12-18 months work for them.
That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship, but there's a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice.
It's true that sometimes it's needed to prevent further damage and agree it's a rough thing in human relationship.
There are people in their 50s and 60s who are learning the hard way (particularly in 2020-2021) how much their company doesn't actually care about them.
Then why isn' it the case in eg Germany. Whats different.
Seems crazy to hire people in the first place that you don't trust!
Isn’t the US model of severance pay better because you can take a new job while in your severance period.
What’s the thinking behind this one? These rules are insane.
They are. Its the result of shallow thinking, socialism and pure graft. People don't consider there are considerable downsides to these regulations, and simply think "protecting the workers" is good.
No, not really. Companies have that option but it's almost never used, only in extreme cases (e.g. when the company has a real reason to assume the employee would misuse their continued access).
It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
Coinbase offered 3.5 months' severance pay minimum, plus additional severance pay based on employee tenure. If that's a poorly done layoff, what's a well-done one?
Just went through this on a move to Austin from Chicago. I was legitimately scared for my life until the end of my first day at the new job. I have savings, of course, but the pressure is still there.
It's almost universal that layoffs include (at minimum) a few weeks of full pay. Sometimes months.
It's effectively the same as getting advanced notice, you just aren't expected to do any work after you get notice.
<Insert land of freedom here>
Well on the flip side I know many people who've received severance pay after being let go, but I don't know anyone who's provided labor to a company for months after leaving.
Someone who replaced you but you don't know reaches out asking for help on their work? Or you're being asked questions you'd need to dig in to? "Sorry, I don't work there anymore".
But answering a text message from someone you had a good relationship with, who is asking a question in good faith, the answer to which you can recall without effort? Wouldn't agree with calling that consulting.
If the latter, how do you justify that as "exploitation"?
In many places and industries, you become a risk when you give notice, and are cut off from company resources immediately.
This is most visible in the financial industry, but I've seen it elsewhere too.
It's not really a big deal. Everyone understands it, and you just adjust your communication choices accordingly.
which sounds like to me a carte blanche permission to not do any more work after giving notice if that happens.
Sounds harsh if you're not used to it. But it makes a lot of sense within the industry, and no one's feelings get hurt in practice.
Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time).
Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office.
It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal.
Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it.
>Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
If you count tech companies in the German sense, like BOSCH, Siemens, VW, etc. then yes, most are IG Metall.
This stuff is very country dependent and it seems that many countries in western Europe require a bunch of time before escorting you off the premises.
But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people. This ties into the social well-fare system which does not like people entering it for frivolous reasons. Especially people close to retirement age who are effectively unemployable because they are so expensive to get rid off. Which is an interesting dynamic where people close to retirement have to constantly fear layoffs not because they are useless but because they are a liability for their employer.
Mostly companies not following the rules end up engaged in expensive court cases where the judge typically rules against them unless they followed the rules. Court mediated settlements tend to be governed by simple formulas based on years of service, age, etc. So, mostly companies do the right thing and you typically get a fair offer in line with that as they prefer for things not to escalate that way.
I've been through this process once when Nokia started laying off masses of people. I got caught up in one of those waves and they gave me a generous deal and even some startup funding.
Usually, they can fire you and then make you work the notice period, which really sucks. I was lucky and they gave me gardening leave instead. So, I literally dropped everything and never did a minute of work for them again. Out of the building five minutes after they gave me my notice. They did not kick me out but just told me that I did not have to do anything anymore. Going cold turkey like that is not fun. In the period after that I bootstrapped my first startup and managed to get my former employer to fund it. Great experience overall.
But still, getting layed off was a shock. I had to do the walk of shame to the unemployment agency. That really sucked and they treat you like you are useless scum. You are just a number in the system. I literally went from being a principal engineer that just got a raise because to a great performance review to being out on the street dealing with crap like that. The good news was that it wasn't personal. They needed to cut some percentage and my team got squeezed in the middle. Corporate politics basically.
Nope, in Austria employers can fire most people without any reason. Restrictions may apply to vulnerable people like close to retiring age and mass layoffs, but firing one Average Joe who isn't considered vulnerable has no rules or restrictions.
So I think the UK has better job security than some EU countries.
I'm not an employment lawyer, but to the best of my knowledge this is incorrect - mass redundancies of 20+ people need to be notified to the government in advance, and failure to do so carries criminal penalties.
P&O seems to have escaped this requirement (at least for now) owing to maritime employment being a special case and jurisdictional issues
https://www.rsmuk.com/ideas-and-insights/legal/mass-redundan...
For >=100 redundancies, notice to the Secretary of State is required and not giving notice is a criminal offence, by both the company, and also any officer/director/similar who is involved in not giving notice: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/194
A level five fine on the standard scale is (since 2015) technically unlimited, so it's not a toothless law. Not sure if anyone has even been prosecuted though.
Literally everything you said does not apply for all of Europe, not even all of EU. Maybe you should be more specific before making such wild claims.
In Germany if you are unemployed and the unemployment agency sends you to a course, like to learn German, you are no longer part of the unemployment statistic even though you're still receiving welfare.
some might cut you off from work and you will end up getting payed for nothing but thats on business to decide on.
Coworkers just disappear and show as deactivated, and out of privacy nobody will tell you what happened. They just vanish.
Almost one month of free time. Spent that time learning new stack and landed a job that paid me twice as much as the old one.
In Europe its not so bad to get some spare time while still getting paid.
Friend was in similar situation, but he had 3 months of paid free time.
> That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship
The security policies didn’t come down from the mountain etched on a stone tablet. Humans thought them up and put them in place.
It’s important to remember and acknowledge that everything we do is the result of a human’s choice.
Either because they're shitting their pants (irrationally believing that these people are both willing to commit, and capable of committing great acts of sabotage on their way out). Or they rationally understand that their internal security measures are a total shitshow (and so the potential for sabotage is real), or that some of these people are rigthfully disgruntled (hence, the motive for sabotage is real).
Or (as I suspect) because it helps them emotionally distance themselves from the people whose lives will be (at the very least) dinged by being on the receiving end of these events. "Why did we let you find out about the layoff by having your account locked? Because we knew you were unstable and vindictive, and basically a walking liability to the company all along."
It’s been a long journey but something to consider
It may not turn out the way that you think it will...
Companies that are laying you off are doing you a favor: you'd be making much more money working for someone else!
If anything, in the US, there's reason to believe there will be an even lower labor supply in the future with the baby boomers retiring, a generation larger than the ones replacing it.
It's not true, at least not universally. I have plenty of examples when very competent people, no less than seniors, spend months - in today's market conditions. A big chunk of the reason is this - you're laid off, so something is wrong, and often it takes time to get to interview - so you're without job, and you're offered inferior salary, and the time isn't on your side. Many people don't specialize in searching for work, they specialize in e.g. software.
If the jobs are so plentiful, why are there 500-1000 other applicants for a Sr Unix SysAdmin role.....
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
The reason layoffs are cold and impersonal is that it’s a very fraught event for the company and lawsuits are quite common. So because of all the rules and regulations, the safest play is to say as little as possible to avoid any lawsuit. Therefore you will get very little reasoning and no emotional support from your former employer.
What I assume would bother me more is the worrying or fake compassion for me. We were not a family, we were "friends" only by convenience, the company didn't actually have an important mission other than making money and I know it. If I was just fired by you, pretending to feel bad (or even actually feeling bad) for me doesn't help me. I am already thinking about my next steps: I need to inform my wife, rethink my finances, and likely start looking for a new job.
Disclaimer: I was never fired yet, so of course I might be full of shot. And how one reacts also probably depends on which phase of your life you are in and how easily you think you get another job.
For regulatory / compliance reasons they may have been told to avoid discussions with you or direct you to HR.
I have seen this happening over and over.
Your 80/20 speaks to remuneration, which can be negotiated and does not have to be equal, especially when equality isn't fair.
Law Firms are one example where it could work, but even there you have Partners and Associates. And even Partners have levels (Equity Partners, Junior Partners, Full Partners... etc).
Communism itself has many flavors, and while soviet communism failed (arguably because it was just tsarism with a different tsar), Chinese communism is still very much a working model and a very successful one (for some definitions of success.)
Democratic socialism is also well represented today, with some stand-out performers in Europe.
As with all social systems, capitalism included, there are pros and cons, haves and have-nots. Some systems promote equality, some promote huge winners and losers. Naturally US businesses tend to model the national system (the only thing that matters is money) which typically makes them poor places to work.
But companies don't have to follow the national model - there are plenty of exploitive companies in Europe, and more than a few humane companies in the US.
During the Cultural Revolution, China tried to become "more communist" economically, with predictably bad outcomes.
Clubhouse has something like 80 employees and raised $110mm. Is every employee expected to bring $1.4 mil to the table when joining? Seems like it would reduce the pool of available candidates.
https://www.igalia.com/
Other examples: https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456918
I’m not looking for community at work, I’m looking for money.
I ended up following her.
I suspect that I'm in a minority, though.
And to be fair it was largely my fault for not being able to cope, but the brutality of the process was something that was difficult for me to understand at the time. I'm autistic and I tend to be very naive about human relationships. I was working at this place for about 5 years and thought the people I worked with were my friends, even my boss. When I got let go there was no warning - which I now know is normal. I was just finishing up one Friday afternoon and I got a call from my boss basically telling me not to come back on Monday. I didn't understand... I asked why and got some BS explanation, but I took it seriously and tried to propose alternative solutions confused as to why they weren't listening. I then tried to thank them for the time and say goodbye to the team, but I immediately got cut off from all my communication tools (I was working remote at the time). I was so stupid I actually thought they'd call me on Monday and ask me to come back because this was so out of character for how my friends normally treated me. Man I was such an idiot...
Obviously now I know this is standard corporate practise, but at the time it was such a surprise that someone would do something so cruel. The experience has completely altered the trust I have for people in my life, probably irreparably, and I'm now constantly on edge about the same thing happening to me again.
I know layoffs are something that have to happen, but these experiences are hard on people and it's crazy to me how unsympathetic employers can be. Why don't they find it harder to turn sometimes life upside down? Why don't they ever seem to care emotionally about what they're doing?
This is good article. Layoffs are something we should probably talk about more as a society.
If you know someone who's been layed off, please make sure they know you're there for them. Just knowing they're not alone and that people are there and care can take so much weight their shoulders.
This doesn't sound like you're an idiot to me, it sounds like modern corporations are fucked up and we've just gotten used to it. Your reaction was pretty normal for someone who hadn't seen it before.
As much as people complain about academia here, I’ve found a home where layoffs don’t have to happen. There’s a permanent home here for people with tenure, guaranteed for life. We vote on who our boss is and they serve a limited term, after which they return to the rank and file. We have a democratic body that has power at the university level and we all get a vote. We vote on practically every decision made in the department.
And even if you don’t have tenure and there is no need for you in the future, you don’t find out about that on Friday with your income, healthcare, relationships, and housing all in question by Monday. How anxiety inducing! We tell you at least a semester in advance instead of escorting you out like a potential arsonist looking to burn the place to the ground. And imagine that, the place is still standing.
Don’t get me wrong there’s a lot wrong with the model at many levels — it’s political and dogmatic, inefficient and bureaucratic. But at least it’s a different model that doesn’t have to be cruel by nature.
At least at the company I don't have to worry about that shit as directly as a worker.
While applying for grants can be stressful if you don’t get one, there’s always another. You get 3 attempts to apply for a CAREER award! The same goes for papers; if it’s rejected just shop it at the next venue and it’ll be accepted eventually if the research is quality. It can be stressful but no single thing is ever do or die. They say “publish ir perish” but academia is filled with 2nd and 3rd chances. I feel like a lot of the stress is self inflicted by type-a personalities who need to be perfect all the time, people who never got a B in their lives.
Even on tenure track, you know you’re guaranteed a job for 6 years as long as you are trying and making some progress. But if you aren’t performing at the level of getting tenure, that’s made clear way ahead of time in the (rare) cases I’ve seen in my department.
Perhaps you lucked out?
As someone who was told at the beginning of the term that he would have no job at the end of it, I'm not sure that foreknowledge was really less anxiety inducing than being told with no warning. It was more like knowing the end of the world was coming, and you were powerless to change it. And equally cruel, I'd say.
But lecturers not so much anymore, that position is changing across academia. I'm a lecturer and I have a renewable 5 year contract where I'm guaranteed a job for that time. That's more job stability than most people have, where they can be canned on any given Friday. As far as voice, lecturers have a vote in the faculty senate, and they have a vote in our department. They even have a vote in choosing our chair! How many workers get a vote in choosing their boss? Lecturers can even become chair or vice chair if they want; our current vice chair was a lecturer. As far as income, it's definitely lower than industry and tenured faculty, but lecturers also have a full 4 months off every year, which is something money can't buy in almost any profession. YMMV at your school, but like I said, the lecturer role is becoming much more attractive at many schools.
> It was more like knowing the end of the world was coming, and you were powerless to change it. And equally cruel, I'd say.
Help me try to understand, what would not be cruel? The tone of this thread seems to be that canning a worker with not enough warning is cruel, but you're saying too much warning is just as cruel? You're given 14 weeks to find a new job, and they'll pay you that entire time. It's pretty much the softest let-go I can think of. What process would you prefer?
There are many other things as well
I’ve not been laid off as part of a mass layoff, but I have been put on an impossible PiP because my new manager was not able to manipulate me despite his best efforts. At the time, I had no clue why I was put on PiP despite solid performance for the 7 months I was in the company (it was a startup and I didn’t have a direct manager for that time). I was in shock for 3 days but I pulled myself together and investigated the matter by speaking diplomatically with my manager. When I realised he could not answer any questions that would make the PiP “less impossible”, I realised that he just wanted me gone. I resigned the next day.
I look back at that layoff with gratitude:
1. I quit a toxic culture that was bringing out the worst in me
2. I re-calibrated my relationship with work. I no longer push myself all the time (at the time, that’s the only way I would relate to work - by going the extra mile every time)
3. I started a meditation practice that I still practice. It changed my entire outlook on work and life. My relationships are better and life is much much less stressful.
Every lay-off at the place I worked was always companied with a thank-you speech and a farewell present. They kept working as till they found a new job as well.
How do you know that? OP doesn't say whether or not other people were let go at the same time also. It could be either.
I've had a similar things happen a couple of other times though, once during a mass layoff of the engineering department and the another time at a startup that ran out of money after a failed funding round. Both of those times I was kind of aware of the situation about a month ahead of time and was in a better financial situation so they went much smoother although it was still a very stressful few weeks.
I've never been fired, but I've seen people get fired for fairly trivial reasons. Basically, "we don't really like him and this is a good excuse to get rid of him".
Its been 4 years but even today I wonder if its a uniquely American issue having never faced sudden layoffs while working in SE Asia and Europe. I cannot bear this sudden banishment from the herd and having so called friends suddenly stop talking and communicating. Its scarred me and if my wife and daughter were not from the US , I would leave to go work in a different country in a heartbeat.
Your situation sounds absolutely horrific. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
I know someone going through something similar at the moment and I'm really worried about him. He moved to the UK for work and recently got layed off unexpectedly. Now he's in a position where he can't afford his rent and he can't afford school tuition for his son. He might end up being forced to take his son out of school and move back home which he obviously doesn't want to do as his family are settled here now. His son doesn't really know anything else and see's the UK as his home.
When I went through what I went through I just had my girlfriend to worry about. If I had a child I don't know how I would have coped to be honest. It's so much harder when people depend on you and you know you're letting them down.
Hope you're doing better now.
Companies love to promote the idea that work is a second family. It isn't, it's a cut throat place, where even "work friends/family" would throw you under the bus for a promotion or a raise.
You should always keep a distance from coworkers. They could report you to HR for anything even after hours.
Highly recommend reading "Corporate Confidential"
Also, your employer is not your friend and definitely not your family.
It was entirely expected. In fact, I lasted about two years longer than I thought would be the case.
The corporation shed all of its non-domestic engineering (it was a Japanese company). It also let go a bunch of other folks; including many in Japan, which was a big deal. My whole team was let go. A couple of engineers had moved on, beforehand.
I stayed until the end, because I wanted to be there for the team. I also knew that the company would provide a substantial “discretionary reimbursement.” They don’t give “severance,” and are careful to mention that this is not “severance.” The reason that it’s not “severance,” is because they use it as leverage to get you to sign a “non-disparagement” agreement.
I got a year’s salary. It was capped.
I had no problem signing the agreement. Even though it was a layoff, I had (still have) no resentment against the company. I feel that many of the decisions that were made, leading up to the layoff, were terrible, but I was not consulted. In fact, my warnings went unheeded (it was entirely predictable, years in advance), but working for them was one of my proudest life achievements. They were (for how much longer, I’m not sure) one of the best imaging companies on Earth. I worked as a peer, with some of the top engineers and scientists in the world.
As I said, the layoff, itself, was no surprise. What was a surprise, however, was the way I was treated by the industry, after the layoff. That treatment prompted me to just toss in the towel, and decide that I was in early retirement.
I’m sure that I could have gotten a fairly decently-paying job, if I had been willing to accept some pretty shabby treatment, and spend a couple of years, desperately looking, but I didn’t need to. All of the engineers that worked for me, eventually did quite well (we were a pretty leet team). As their manager, the rules were different, for me. I was not interested in another management position. I wanted to return to my engineering roots.
I knew that this would be a “hard sell,” so had spent many years, building a portfolio, and was willing to take a significant pay cut (I could afford it, and it would have been an insane bargain for other companies). I was quite willing to work for “risky,” or high-pressure environments, like a startup. I was looking for work that interested me. I’d spent my career, doing work that did not interest me, and having what work I did, misused or sidelined.
I just didn’t expect the incredibly shabby treatment that I received. It was a shock.
I know that my engineers were treated more respectfully, than was I. I’m pretty sure that my background as a manager had something to do with it, and that I was older than most of them. My network was pretty much useless, as they all knew me as a manager, so I had to go in, “cold.”
As it turned out, it was probably the best thing that could have happened. The last five years, have been some of the happiest in my life. My physical and mental health have drastically improved. Once I got over my butthurt, I was fine. I have worked harder than I ever did, as a wage slave, and have learned more than I dreamed I would (I’ve always been a good learner).
I have done all this work on my terms, using my development techniques, and at my pace (which is actually about five times greater than when I was working). I tend to be working from sunup, to way past sundown, seven days a week. I love working, and working hard. If no one is willing to pay me, I'll do it for free. My GH ID is solid green[0] (not an exaggeration. I only have one day, in the last year, when I wasn’t checking in Swift work, and that was because I was taking a Swift class, on that day).
I’m very fortunate, in being able to do this. It was the result of decades of frugality, conservative fiscal discipline, humble living, loyalty, and hard work. Old-fashioned stuff, that g...
This is lying to the investors about the status of the company, lying to the employees who keep on with their lives while they should be looking for new options.
This is pure fraud.
Though I agree lying is wrong
A big co announced to its employees 2 weeks before their assessment that the percentage of employees that will need “improvement” increased from 3% to 10%, and that this year they will offer in lieu payments for those who do not want to do the “improvement program”.
So there you go, 10% with 2 weeks notice.
The improvement was a two month program.
If so, then that is not a layoff, and it often a common practice to avoid layoff, people already on the fence, close to retirement, etc will take the buyout.
I fail see what the issue is here....
My biggest annoyance is that a bunch of large public companies did stock buybacks when the market was at record highs. Now that debt is expensive, doing secondary offerings just completes the buy high sell low scenario and shows bad leadership.
how is this helpful.