HN Explorer

Ask HN: Easing wife onto Linux laptop How to?

31 points by A4ET8a8uTh0 ↗ HN
Hey everyone,

It is going to sound a little weird and if it does not belong here, let me know and I will remove the post, but I am looking for some advice. Long story short, wife requested a new laptop for upcoming event and her laptop is old and slowish by today's standards ( nothing really wrong with it and she is not really using it for anything other than Word, Excel -- to keep tabs on some bills and a browser ). I suggested SSD since that would immediately make all the perceived slowness mostly go away, but I guess it is more about having something new ( and I will inherit old lappy so no waste here ).

Anyway.. the question is not about hardware, but about OS. I am trying to move her away from Windows, but she resists, because that is the only OS she knows and does not want to 're-learn how to do everything'. It is not completely wrong, but wasn't there a KDE profile that basically made it look like Windows or something? I can't seem to find it, but I could have sworn I saw discussions of Linux that looked like Windows somewhere.

140 comments

[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 181 ms ] thread
Nextgrid
The UI itself is not going to be your problem. Compatibility is - if she uses Word or Excel, presumably to collaborate with other people, she will have a problem regardless of whether the Linux OS looks like Windows.

A Mac could be a decent middle-ground, especially the recent M1-based ones. It's still a Unix system underneath should she need to use more "Linuxy" things.

A4ET8a8uTh0
I did ask about Macs, but she is consistent in not wanting to learn new UI. That said, word and excel are used to keep track of various tasks; nothing fancy; no collaboration whatsoever.
blendergeek
Don't worry about making it "look like windows". Just use the default KDE Plasma desktop.

Will LibreOffice suffice as a stand in for MS Office for her? (It should if her spreadsheets aren't full of macros). LibreOffice has a ribbon; learn how to enable it.

Does she currently use OneDrive?

Obviously web browsing won't be an issue (just use Firefox+uBlock Origin).

Does she watch Peacock streaming on the laptop? It blocks Linux for no good reason (DRM shills please stay quiet).

She can get used to the new interface just like when would have to if she got a new version of Windows -- if she feels like it.

jlund-molfese
I really wouldn't recommend LibreOffice Writer for collaboration with other people. You never know how your documents are going to look when they're opened up in Word, and vice versa. Photoshop is at least a decade ahead of GIMP, and has a less embarrassing name. As someone who's used desktop Linux for the last 10 years, it's come a long way, but is still a personal choice that works well for some workflows and not others.

Also, common sites like OpenTable block access to anyone with a Linux user agent for no reason. Imagine hearing "sorry honey I couldn't get dinner reservations for our anniversary because you forced me to use that weird new desktop environment"!

blendergeek
> I really wouldn't recommend LibreOffice Writer for collaboration with other people. You never know how your documents are going to look when they're opened up in Word, and vice versa.

Remember to set up fonts correctly. Install all the microsoft fonts that you can on Linux and then use Carlito/Caldea as replacements for Calibri/Cambria. Most of the weird layout issues going back and forth between MS Word and LibreOffice are about fonts.

> Photoshop is at least a decade ahead of GIMP, and has a less embarrassing name.

The average user can get by with photopea which works in the browser (or so I hear from HN). For me, The GIMP works just fine.

> Also, common sites like OpenTable block access to anyone with a Linux user agent for no reason.

I just used OpenTable on Linux five seconds ago. I know that some sites (very few actually, I mentioned Peacock as one) block Linux users; luckily OpenTable isn't one of these (anymore?).

HKH2
I don't know what Photoshop has done in a decade, but Krita is way ahead of GIMP.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
jjgreen 

    Ask HN: Easing husband onto proper computer, How To?

    My husband uses some weird sort of computer which doesn't run any proper
    software and he keeps trying to persuade me to do the same, even though he  
    knows I have work to do ...
How would you like it? Leave the poor woman alone!
dashwehacct
Lol this is great. Got an audible chuckle out of me.
[dead] superchroma
A4ET8a8uTh0
I love my child, but if see said child doing something I think won't work well, I hesitate to not act. There is a benefit to allow a person fall and learn. I would venture same applies to my wife. I am not sure this is pushing anyone around, but I will admit you made me hesitate a little bit since it is pretty imposing.
yuppie_scum
Your wife is not a child, hopefully
NoGravitas
This is HN, though. Lots of Libertarians here.
zo1
And none of them equate an adult partner as a child. Is that really what goes on in your head when you think Libertarian?
superchroma
But she's not your child, she's your wife! Your adult wife. She has a lifetime of legitimate experiences and is at the wheel of her ship, and, at this time in the cosmos, you happen to be cruising together in the same direction. Take care not to infantilize her. You don't live inside her skull. You don't know what her choices and learned experiences mean to her, and how much she values them, in exactly the same way she doesn't for yours, it's unknowable.
horsawlarway
Frankly - this is a statement that is completely disconnected from the post.

He's getting asked to purchase a laptop for her - that means this is a place where she's already deferring to his choices on tech (likely for good reason - he's probably the domain expert in the family, whether he wanted it or not).

> "she has a lifetime of legitimate experiences and is at the wheel of her ship"

I utterly agree - so she can go buy her own laptop and set it up herself if it's really bugging her. If she's defaulting to him for these chores... then she gets the output he gives her.

superchroma
In my perspective, "if you want me to do it for you, you're going to get it done my way" is not a good relationship hill to die on.
horsawlarway
They're doing it, it will be done the way they do it. There's just no way to avoid that.

A good relationship means "you're going to get it done my way" includes compromise and conversation. This one clearly already has - since the initial suggestion of a simple ssd upgrade was vetoed.

Is he making a mistake? Maybe - who gives a fuck. That's for him and his wife to discuss afterwards.

Why are you so eager to assume malicious intent here?

that_guy_iain
He's getting asked to purchase her a Windows laptop. This means that she has already decided what she wants. And OP wants to ignore that. Basically, what she is asking him to do is buy a laptop with good specs at a good price that has Windows installed. It's the specs she wants input on.

If you ask someone to buy you a clock and they buy you a watch because they think clocks are outdated and they prefer watches even though they know you prefer clocks. You would be annoyed.

horsawlarway
He's getting asked to do a chore for his wife because she thinks he'll do a better job.

If she knows what she wants - why ask him at all? Just go do it.

If she doesn't know what she wants - then be prepared to get his full input (in this case - new hardware plus try linux). Should she be able to ignore his input? Sure. She's a grown up, she can do the chore herself in any way she wants.

Basically - don't expect to force someone to be your free tech support because they happen to be your husband, and then also force them to do your tech support your way.

In the same way that you shouldn't trust a friend to get you "exactly the clock your want" if you ask for it for your birthday or christmas - a lot of times you'll get a watch instead, because it's close enough and they got to pick it using their own expertise.

You can make all sorts of assumptions about their relationship and whether this is a good idea or not, but we aren't them and we don't have the answer to that (who the fuck knows - it's unlikely - but maybe she'll end up loving it. Or maybe she hates it and divorces him. Or maybe she acts like a grown up and installs windows on it herself afterwards.)

that_guy_iain
> In the same way that you shouldn't trust a friend to get you "exactly the clock your want" if you ask for it for your birthday or christmas - a lot of times you'll get a watch instead, because it's close enough and they got to pick it using their own expertise.

You would only get a watch if the person is A is a jerk and thinks they know better or B they made an honest mistake or that was all that was available. If you don't understand that part then I don't think there is a need to carry on.

horsawlarway
Sometimes people are trying to expose you to things you wouldn't necessarily consider yourself.

And that's the root of this whole conversation - she's asking for his help here because she thinks he knows better. So if she's dead set on avoiding getting that advice - Great! She can buy the computer herself. Like a damn grown up...

I'm also not going to say that he's making a great choice here - WE DON'T KNOW! Two weeks from now he might be installing Windows for her and apologizing for putting Linux on it...

I'm saying it's utterly inappropriate to judge their relationship and his post based on that assumption.

It's entirely fair to ask a partner to try new things - and it's NOT fucking malicious. It can be - if you do it all the time and it's not reciprocal - but it can also be a fantastic way to bond, try new things, and have new experiences. Or it can be a minor annoyance tolerated because they enjoy other aspects of each other.

To assume otherwise... is frankly a juvenile approach to relationships. Basically - you don't get to determine how they interact, and it's up to him (and his wife) to determine if this interaction is appropriate, enjoyed, or hated. It can be any of the above, and nothing in the post hints either way.

Would you think it condescending and a jerk move to ask someone to try a new food? Or a new book? Or a song from a genre of music they don't like?

greenyoda
> Would you think it condescending and a jerk move to ask someone to try a new food? Or a new book? Or a song from a genre of music they don't like?

No. But if they say that they're not interested in trying that new food or book or music, I think it would be a jerk move to continue to try to push it on them.

that_guy_iain
> And that's the root of this whole conversation - she's asking for his help here because she thinks he knows better. So if she's dead set on avoiding getting that advice - Great! She can buy the computer herself. Like a damn grown up...

This approach to helping people is kinda what others are trying to point out is problematic. It's either you do things my way or you get no help at all. A scenario you've probably experience. You're building something technical and run into an issue so you seek help and the people you ask prefer another technical solution and their only response is you should redo everything and do it their way and don't tell you how to achieve your goal using the technical solution you're using. That probably annoyed the hell out of you.

yebyen
> Windows isn't heroin, people don't need interventions off of it.

This is exactly what someone who is addicted to Windows would say.

I bought a Woot special laptop a few weeks ago and I was absolutely floored to see the number of ads in the default installation of Windows! (Not really, I've been randomly wandering back to Windows a few times over the last 20 years, and I'm mostly desensitized to it by now, but I still notice)

It came with Windows on it, and it came with thermal issues. As soon as I had it running for more than 10-20 minutes, the CPU (an 8-core) would top out at about 12%, limping along on a single core's worth, with no other visible indication of any problems.

I tried everything I could think of, including a new application of thermal paste on all the internal components, and basically everything short of sending it back all to no avail. But then I thought to install Linux... which actually allows the CPU to idle when you're not trying to do anything, and if there still remains any thermal problem, well, it's frankly undetectable to me while running Linux.

This is an anecdote, but I bought this laptop for my wife, (with Windows on it, on purpose, as I knew that's what she'd want) as a replacement for a more expensive laptop (which is not that old and also runs Windows, but is already "aging" (WTF?)) and it already feels like a piece of trash, until I remove the "virus."

I'm already Mr. Tech Support, there's no escaping it. The best practice to me is not to run spyware on your computer. This is something I'll be doing to empower her. She is a biologist and and ecologist, and she already started learning Git on her own to collab better with more HPC-focused data-science people. (I'm very proud of her, if that's not already obviously oozing out.)

ChuckNorris89
>This is exactly what someone who is addicted to Windows would say.

This is exactly what a GNU/Neckbeard would say.

Addiction to an OS? Come on. It's not crack cocaine and it's not tik-tok. It's a tool that let's people do work and fun.

I'm a huge Linux nerd myself but computing for most people is best when it involves the least amount of friction and zero learning curve.

I tried migrating people to linux and it rarely went well:

"Oh yea, now we can't read your external HDD because that's NTFS and Linux kernel doesn't have drivers for that yet, we can add them manually", "Oh yeah, that tearing you see is because you need to enable tear-free in the config file, haha, don't worry, it will be smooth like Windows when we finally switch to Wayland"; "Oh yeah, your laptop's fans now scream when watching YouTube because Chrome doesn't have GPU acceleration by default enabled and your laptop has an Nvidia chip who's drivers don't play well with linux but don't worry, that's not Linux's fault, that's Google's and Nvidia's fault haha. The fix is quite simple you see, we just go in Chrome config flags and then to the Arch wiki and modify these command line inputs to ..."

yebyen
> What if the lady actually enjoys the thing, then let her enjoy the thing.

She doesn't, that was where we started. She knows (thinks) she has to use it, but the things she is doing can all be done on Linux, and she is only ever complaining about the computer. RStudio Cloud works just as well on Linux.

What do you call it when someone has a thing they do every day for many years, in spite of the obvious drawbacks, knowing that there are well-trodden alternatives, and without ever having seriously considered trying the other options?

If it's not "real addiction," then it's definitely another word which I'd associate with unhealthy behavior.

I've been a computer people forever. I bought a $500 machine that is perfectly good, and there's no reason for me to send it back just because Windows seems to have an issue. It's less than 3 years old from the manufacturer, refurbished. There should be no problem, and without Windows there is no problem.

But we get people with replies like this:

> get her the best windows laptop you can afford, make sure it's secured properly with updates and such and that it "just works"

$500 is plenty. Why should I spend more than that on a laptop? (Hell, they gave me back $75 just to try applying the thermal grease myself, if I can save that kind of money by being resourceful, I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna show as many people as I can that they can do it too.)

By the way, I should have definitely laughed at GNU/Neckbeard. That one is going in my pocket for later... LOLOL

srk_hn
I would cal it valuing my time. I don't want to spend an hour or two a day learning something new when I've already invested in learning something that solves my problems good enough.

Can I have gripes about the quirks and how some things could be better? Sure. Is it worth throwing the baby with the bathwater and learning something entirely new? Highly unlikely.

yebyen
> I don't want to spend an hour or two a day learning something new when I've already invested in learning something that solves my problems good enough.

This is exactly how I felt after about 20 years of using Linux since the age of 14. Windows 7? 8? 10? 11? No thanks, I don't want to learn it, I've already had 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, XP, I enjoyed it throughout my childhood, (and then I became a man and put away childish things.)

That's plenty of time for me to consider whether I really want to leave Windows or not, and I don't regret switching to Debian, it does basically everything I need. 20 years later, I've had lots of time to think about it, and I'm definitely still a Linux user. (And a Mac user... anything but Windows really.)

srk_hn
I use MacOS / Linux all the time. I still use Windows for gaming because nothing comes close.
yebyen
Maybe not entirely put away childish things... :) I still enjoy Minecraft, KSP, both of which can be played anywhere!

I have a feeling that's not what you mean when you say gaming though

ChuckNorris89
>after about 20 years of using Linux since the age of 14.

Most Average Joes that haven't had this Linux baptism through fire from an early ages definitely won't see eye to eye with you on the greatness of Linux.

They just want their known shit to work out of the box. They don't want to format USB sticks with ISOs ("I can't find any 'Linux', is Ubuntu 'a Linux'? What is an ISO?), format and portion their disks, install and learn a new OS, figure out which command line commands enable HW video acceleration in Chrome, figure out why their screen is tearing, figure out why the webcam now doesn't work, etc.

That's why Linux PC market share is still insignificant in 2022.

yebyen
You're not wrong, but the experience in 2022 is much, much, much better than in 2004.

At that time, the main bragging right was at lan parties – I wasn't getting any tearing, in fact if I ran Quake 3 in Windows, there was a noticeable lag while the (whatever it was) was (doing something in the background) that was definitely not present on Linux.

Baptism through fire is a good way to put it. Back in my day, we had one-way cable modems and you still had to dial in for your upstream! It was on the ISA bus, have you ever seen an IRQ? trailing off...

superchroma
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying that it's the wrong conversation to be having for a harmonious relationship built on mutual respect. The right conversation focuses on her needs and pain points, and a suggestion for a Linux alternative that could help would be one option on the table. If she goes with Linux, and she might, then that's good, but, she may not, and she has a right to that choice too.

Imagine how obnoxious your position would be if you were a vegan or keto dieter trying to wean her off meat or carbs?

yebyen
> Imagine how obnoxious your position would be if you were a vegan or keto dieter trying to wean her off meat or carbs?

Funny, she is the vegetarian/keto and I'm for sure the one who's overweight. Maybe she should try this with me!

I'm not saying anyone must run Linux, but I am saying that people are resistant to change until you show them how easy it is, and what all they do have to gain.

And maybe it's not so easy, and maybe you're right. Not all things are for all people, some people might genuinely need some Windows software. But if you're a person who is interested in Open Source and using programming languages, you could do much worse than a Linux install (and I'd argue that Windows is squarely in the "much worse" bucket.)

Maybe OP's wife is not that person (my wife definitely is).

blendergeek
> Imagine how obnoxious your position would be if you were a vegan or keto dieter trying to wean her off meat or carbs?

If someone was "weaning me off meat" by feeding me Impossible Burgers, I'd be all in.

yebyen
Yeah seriously give me all the impossible whoppers. I'm all in for whopper wednesday... those things are legit!
rejectfinite
Task manager? Resource monitor? Something installed like Process Explorer? You can easily see CPU usage in Windows.

The ads are terrible and the settings need some configuration for me too but thats a one time configuration.

yebyen
Listen, I checked out Task Manager and Resource Monitor, and I can easily see that the CPU usage maxes out at 12% and never goes over that limit except after a cold boot, and then only for a few minutes. I thought it was definitely some internal hardware throttling due to a thermal issue, but then it would have to affect the Linux OS as well, wouldn't it?
rejectfinite
That does sound strange. Might be some weird laptop/driver shit. My desktop is built and the only Windows laptop I use is a corperate one with a custom Windows image from IT. But Windows "walmart" style laptops for home use have always been kinda sus due to all the bloatware on them.

Might have needed a clean Windows reinstall.

yebyen
Or maybe I'd install Windows again and find it does the same thing it does before.

shrug I'd love to say it's working well for her, but we haven't really gone all the way down this road, I know it will work to use Linux, but it still sits on the shelf and she's still dealing with Windows, (on the more expensive slightly older laptop which also has problems.)

horsawlarway
You see this type of post here because HN tends to attract the type of person that usually has the mantle of "tech expert" in families (often times, much to their regret and dismay...).

It doesn't really have jack shit to do with gender in any way other than the historical imbalance in the IT space meaning the person here is more likely to be male (and frankly - that's changing somewhat, as well it should).

The same type of posts pop up for grandparents all the time, and kids, and aunts/uncles/extended family.

It's not about "controlling his wife" it's about doing literally the exact thing you wanted:

> "teach her best practices, from a place of love, to empower her."

That's literally this post. He's trying to make a tech decision he thinks is correct (whether it is or not is moot), when he's clearly been placed in a spot to make those decisions, since it seems like he's setting up the machines and making the purchases (and his first suggestion of "update to an ssd" was vetoed.)

He's then working to ease the pain points of that choice by asking for a more coherent and less jarring way to do it here.

Did he make the right choice? Who gives a fuck - that's a conversation for him and his wife. Is this post creepy? Hardly.

hk1337
Along the same vein, I've thought about setting up PiHole on my parents internet connection but relent because if/when the internet quits working then I am the one that has to deal with it because it was working before I did what I did.
darrylb42
PiHole is interesting in the amount of ads it blocks, but also the ads it doesn't. Made most of the banners go away for the silly coloring applications my kids use, but the full screen video ads don't go away. The video ads really need to be blocked as there are a lot that are not appropriate for the age of my kids.

Some applications also refuse to start without tracking active. Took a while to figure out that "Envoy" the desk booking system wouldn't start while getting DNS from pihole.

hk1337
Yeah, the biggest thing I noticed that showed me how well it works is viewing news article posts where everyone in the comments complains about how unreadable it is and the page loads fine for me with tons of whitespace.

The video ads on YouTube infuriate me though because a lot of times the first one isn't skippable anymore and you have to wade through 2-3 to get to the video.

EDIT: Also, I have a Sudoku game that's just about unplayable away from PiHole because it has an ad at the bottom and interrupts gameplay periodically with video ads.

satyrnein
I pay for YouTube premium just so my young kids don't see ads when they watch it on our TV.
oliwarner
> wife requested a new laptop

This isn't a cold-call, this isn't stopping somebody in the street to ask they try another washing powder, this is active engagement with customer requirements.

If you can't buy your own laptop without asking —and yes, maybe OP has worded this situation to suit their own position, we don't know— you are opening yourself to recommendations.

Leave the poor OP alone, they're just doing their job.

mysore
dual boot. give her a choice. don't force things onto her, even if you think its better. if windows gets slow, she can try linux and see how its faster.

i tried giving my sister linux and she's a technically savvy product manager but she still ended up not liking it. you're wife might be really smart, but if the computer doesn't work correctly she will resent you lol.

and by "correctly" i mean in any way that she doesn't expect or that is contrary to her intuition, which may have been built using windows.

most people generally don't like using computers that much. even i don't as a software engineer.

generally most people use computers as an interface to the web, so the OS is mostly irrelevant. But if the OS gets in her way like once or twice and forces her to install some package or whatever, that's just a little unnecessary friction that makes an already unpleasant experience worse.

can't go wrong with dual booting anyway. if there's any wifi/hardware issues it might be due to linux or she might just blame linux and think its worse even if its better in your eyes and mine.

i mean unless you want to spend extra time doing tech support, which isn't really productive for you, or for her to wait on you when she needs something done.

dxf
Honest question -- why are you trying to get her to move away from Windows? What benefits for her do you see in doing that?

Perhaps she would be more amenable to a Chromebook? (Depending on what apps she actually needs to run.)

A4ET8a8uTh0
Hmm. That is a good question. Upon reflection it is more about me than her. I went out of my way to not let her laptop or my PC back then upgrade to Win10. I do have strong views on telemetry and any new Windows laptop will likely not listen to me when I ask it not to do things I don't want done ( which seems to be a common issue with software these days ).

The benefit for her is the same as the benefit for me. I would like to keep as much of my life as private as possible. I am not sure bare Windows is the best way to achieve that goal ( even if she does not think it is relevant, her disregard for privacy considerations kinda forces me to put some blocks in place ). In case you are wondering, we have discussed privacy implications, but I am learning to pick my hills carefully.

Out of the two evils, I would sooner do Windows ( because then at least I can gut it ). I wouldn't be able to do it Chromebook. Separately, she already said no to Macbook ( so at least she is consistent - no OS change ).

that_guy_iain
So you're basically forcing your decisions on to her? You've forced your decision of not upgrading to the latest windows version. And now you want to go out of your way to not get her a laptop she would be happy with. All because you're not happy with what many would consider be a minor issue.

Since you're saying you've already talked about the privacy implications I'm going to assume your wife has made her opinion clear. Yet here you are trying to figure out how to get her to do what you want. Seems very controlling and generally controlling partners aren't healthy ones. Maybe you should seek some therapy (not couples therapy, just therapy for you) to help you get over this controlling urge you have.

A4ET8a8uTh0
That seems.. unnecessarily harsh? I am not going to play armchair psychiatrist though. With that in mind allow me to focus on a technical piece:

<<You've forced your decision of not upgrading to the latest windows version.

Hmm. Why would you assume it was forced? At the time, my wife could barely mount an objection in that area. From her perspective, if status quo is maintained, it is good. Beyond that though, Windows 7 upgrade was an effective downgrade ( addition of telemetry being one sticking point, but there were others ).

Edit: I am not going to respond to this portion of the post anymore. I dislike playing a game of gotcha especially if I do not see a good faith effort to respond to me. Apart from everything else, I do not think it is in the spirit of HN.

that_guy_iain
> That seems.. unnecessarily harsh?

That was me honestly, trying not to be harsh. And it seems necessary.

> Why would you assume it was forced? At the time, my wife could barely mount an objection in that area.

Barely, so she did? And more or less, this was a decision made by you? That is how you put it across.

Edit: It's not a game of gotcha, it's that you made this clear and it was obivous. As I said, you put it across that you made the decsion and acted upon it. And seriously, look into getting help. It's not healthy.

virgildotcodes
> my wife could barely mount an objection

So she did mount an objection?

Handytinge
This whole comment is incredibly overreaching and reflects a lot more on you than the GP.

You should probably try and re-read it and take stock of where you're at.

prometheus76
Spybot Anti-Beacon blocks Microsoft telemetry. Worth the small fee for peace of mind.
ycombinete
I recently encountered https://privacy.sexy here. It looks like it handles the telemetry side really well… as long as you’re happy to run a ton of someone else’s bash script as an administrator. It’s all open source.
chomp
As someone who's tried to convince their spouse to move from Windows to Mac or Linux, I'd personally not fight this battle unless they express interest. There will be friction regardless of how perfect you set up their DE, and unless they are actively interested in navigating the road blocks, they're going to get frustrated at you, and the computer.

Look at it the reverse, how would you feel if she pressed for you to get off your freebie OS and use a "real operating system." (disclaimer, I use Fedora as my daily driver.) You'd probably feel frustrated and defensive that Linux checks your checkmarks and Windows does not. That is probably true of her position.

Just show her a Chromebook if you want her to try Linux. You'll probably regret pressing for her to jump on anything anything more complex than that.

dashwehacct
You’re in for an uphill battle my friend. The biggest obstacle will be converting her word/excel workflows to a OpenOffice write/calc (or other open source alternative). Unless of course she is using the web version of M$ Office.

I have a work laptop, a personal project laptop (more work), and a gaming pc. I’ve intentionally resisted from installing any work/productivity/etc software on my gaming pc and found myself spending a couple hours navigating through OpenOffice Calc to perform a task that would have taken me 20 minutes in excel. It was possible, but without the familiar UI I was completely lost.

But.. If you can convert her to using web version of these tools, and find an intuitive enough desktop environment, you/she may have a better time with this transition.

Edit: On second thought, I would take a moment to consider what is causing you push her towards this transition. If learning how to operate in a completely different environment than what she is used to is not her fancy, neither of you are going to have a good time.

Either way, good luck.

[deleted]
(comment deleted)
qsort
> I am trying to move her away from Windows

Honestly, I think the "why" is missing here. Does she have a problem she'll be able to solve by switching to Linux? Why isn't installing a fresh copy of Windows without the OEM crap sufficient?

winrid
Give her a Windows laptop.
srk_hn
Linux has been around for 30 years and still has not acquired any significant consumer share.

Yet you've decided that the best solution for her is an OS that requires debugging miscellaneous hardware and driver issues and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

As opposed to MacOS and Windows which just work, used throughout the world on a daily basis by the majority of the world, and have tangible results in terms of productivity benefit.

Honestly I think there are bigger underlying issues here, like listening to your partner and understanding their needs instead of forcing your opinion on someone who doesn't want it.

A4ET8a8uTh0
I am using PopOS as my daily driver. I have yet to see some of the problems with hardware or drivers ( so kudos to PopOS people ). Admittedly, it is not without flaws, but.. I don't turn on Windows VM that much anymore.

<<Honestly I think there are bigger underlying issues here, like listening to your partner and understanding their needs instead of forcing your opinion on someone who doesn't want it.

You have a point although obviously I am not willing to discuss those on open forum more than that. Hmm, lets reverse roles a little and see where it takes us in a hypothetical.

If I wanted to get a Acura, but wife was pushing for a Honda, is it forcing an opinion or discussing options with a partner?

srk_hn
That's a discussion because by and large those two choices are equal with minute differences in perceived social status and comfort, but the fundamental function is the same.

On the other hand if I'm spending 2 minutes debugging why my microphone isn't working or why my 2nd monitor blinks out when my computer goes to sleep, that is a waste of my time. If I can figure out any general Windows or MacOS software in 5 minutes but need to read a manpage or ask my partner how to do some trivial piece of work or why I can't edit a document my coworker sent but everyone else can, you are intentionally sabotaging my life with your decisions.

There's many things that are up for negotiation and consideration in a relationship, but wasting someone's time for the sake of some self righteous quest for privacy (that argument is moot btw, considering that you have now encouraged your partner to take risky actions such as finding new software and finding new ways of doing things without a "it just works" approach) crosses a line.

If you use a cellphone, have a WiFi router, don't use a VPN with no records at the router level, or are located within a city, you already don't have privacy no matter how much you personally believe you do.

Source: I work a lot with adtech and my partner works in a personal identification business

A4ET8a8uTh0
<<There's many things that are up for negotiation and consideration in a relationship, but wasting someone's time for the sake of some self righteous quest for privacy

Hmm. There was some judgment in that post. A lot of people value things on different scales. My self-righteous quest is valuable to me. It is only fair I would try to preserve some of it.

<<If you use a cellphone, have a WiFi router, don't use a VPN with no records at the router level, or are located within a city, you already don't have privacy no matter how much you personally believe you do.

Privacy is not a binary proposition that can be toggled, but rather, especially in current environment, an effort and a spectrum. If already did not have privacy, why would there be such a mounted effort to ensure that those intrusions are normalized.

srk_hn
I too am privacy conscious. I run adblockers, I use a VPN, I use a MacOS firewall and every connection has to be explicitly allowed.

I teach my partner how to do the same. That's about the extent I can do. If you want to go further such as pay for a temp phone or VPN using gift cards or get a 2nd internet connection to the house that's setup with a perfectly firewalled router, you can do so and that is your prerogative. But when your actions affect someone else's quality of life and you take away their decision to do so, that IMO is active sabotage.

A4ET8a8uTh0
I do not think I can accept sabotage characterization although I can see why that image would come to mind. It is a compromise of opinions at best. Still, I think you do have a point.
katbyte
Are you sharing the Acura/Honda or is it _your_ car? Because if it’s your car then it is forcing an opinion. If it’s shared it’s different because you both will use it. (Not to mention the price difference here)

Laptop is hers, for her, to be used by her, therefor it’s her choice not yours.

Advise and suggest, but recognize in the end people are allowed to make the personal choice they want even if you don’t like it or agree.

A4ET8a8uTh0
Interesting. Could you define "_your_ car". Marriage, in US anyway, is effectively a business partnership with default split of 50/50. My car is her car and vice versa.

I think I already have a response I needed, but now I am just exploring other avenues of this conversation.

katbyte
Some couples share a car, others each have their car. One situation is very different then the other, and sharing 1 car between a couple is not even comparable to someone’s laptop - which is theirs.
virgildotcodes
A car is a major purchase that can have a big long term impact on your shared life and expenses.

Her choice of OS probably is not.

A better hypothetical would be - she likes Hawaiian pizza, but you’re really intent on convincing her to eat supreme pizzas every time instead.

A4ET8a8uTh0
You have a point in that OS is not indeed a car. Analogies are flawed by their very nature ( they are like something are open to interpretation ). It is not, however, just a question of OS. It is just happens to be a sticking point to me. If we are talking expenses, it is a laptop, which, cost-wise, can vary somewhat.

Admittedly, mid-range stuff won't go past 2k if that.

virgildotcodes
I mean if your issue is the budget for the laptop that’s an entirely different and totally reasonable matter.
erddfre3423
>Yet you've decided that the best solution for her is an OS that requires debugging miscellaneous hardware and driver issues and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

I guess you've never tried Linux Mint with Cinnamon or anything similar. I've honestly had way more issues with Windows 10 than Mint. Before switching to it I had never even touched Linux, yet I found the transition to using it as my daily driver very easy. Everything I need to do for basic use can be done through UI, it's intuitive and quite similar to what I got used to with Windows 7. The only thing I miss is some Windows-software like MS Office.

It's all about which distro you choose. At work I use RHEL with Gnome and it's nowhere near as beginner-friendly as Mint with Cinnamon.

srk_hn
I've tried Fedora, Arch Linux, Ubuntu, CentOS, and Linux Mint. They all have issues you won't discover in the initial honeymoon stages but will randomly discover issues like sleep mode not working consistently, wifi disconnecting, second monitor not working, battery draining, etc.

If your hardware combination works with 0 issues, consider yourself lucky, but if you plan to upgrade your hardware you need to set aside hours of your time just in case you have issues.

If you're making any sort of serious $$ with your machine and Linux is not a hard requirement, good luck making that investment of time worth it.

I know that if I have an issue with Windows a quick Google search and I can find a solution within minutes. But I don't think I will ever return to debugging for hours why my 2nd monitor with an AMD card refused to work after my Ubuntu desktop went to sleep.

erddfre3423
Yeah, I think that for new hardware there's more chance of compatibility issues. But when it comes to old hardware that's too slow for Windows, I think installing used SSD and something like Mint is always a good idea over buying a new machine just to run browser on Windows. Good for the planet and your wallet. Personally I use a Thinkpad from 2011 as my daily-driver outside of work, couldn't be happier but it probably wouldn't really work well with Win 10.
yazzku
> and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

Do you mean like WinForms, WPF, WinUI, UWP, MAUI, Blazor, or good ol' MFC, none of which display text properly on hi-dpi displays in 2022?

ChuckNorris89
We clearly don't live in the same 2022 then. Windows 11 has no high-dpi issues for me today on my 4ik monitor. And I even run 20 year old software and games on it. That has been a non-issue since later Windows 10 versions from like 2017.

And users/consumer don't care about GUI frameworks nonsense, that's a developer issue for them to deal with.

blendergeek
This post called out Linux for having an inconsistent UI:

> and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

This reply pointed out that Windows also has an inconsistent UI:

> Do you mean like WinForms, WPF, WinUI, UWP, MAUI, Blazor, or good ol' MFC, none of which display text properly on hi-dpi displays in 2022?

This reply to that post states, "well users don't actually care":

> And users/consumer don't care about GUI frameworks nonsense, that's a developer issue for them to deal with.

It causes "a mishmash of sofware with no consistent UI language" on Windows. Try using Control Panel, Settings, or any of the other Windows Configuration things. At least on Windows 10 it was a nightmare of "which settings app from which generation of UI has that setting in it?".

ChuckNorris89
>Try using Control Panel, Settings, or any of the other Windows Configuration things.

Average users don't know or care about any of that. That's a nitpicking issue for you because you know them all and are looking for flaws so you know where to look to go "A-ha, see, there's multiple ways to change settings!", but most users will not be bothered by any of that as they will always end up in the Settings panel in Windows 11 whenever you're trying to change something, and it has all the setting you need in a searchable categorized way, from screen resolution, to security, updates, internet connection, mouse acceleration to accessibility, since to find the old control panel you need to actually open it yourself manually, as it's never opened or suggested by any windows 11 setting itself, so again, this is a non-issue for average users just a nitpick from haters.

No need to break out the old control panel unless you're doing complex sys-admin things.

And what's wrong with having two ways in which to change the settings, a new and a legacy way? Even linux distros have that and it's considered a plus. That's like saying Linux is inconsistent because you can change a setting in the GUI and via the command line.

yazzku
What are you talking about? The fact that there are two Settings panels ('Settings' and 'Control Panel') is already sub-optimal for UI/UX. Not to mention that half the windows on Control Panel are not resizable and the font does not scale with the rest of the system.

Average users do poke around the Control Panel, e.g. to install a printer. You clearly don't use Windows very much.

ChuckNorris89
>What are you talking about? The fact that there are two Settings panels ('Settings' and 'Control Panel') is already sub-optimal for UI/UX

Why is that sub optimal? Nobody is forcing you to go looking for and dig up the old control panel especially that the average user has no idea the control panel even exists as it's hidden away since the Settings menu is always prevalent when searching for a setting and does everything. If the user can do everything using the default Settings app, what's the problem with the existence of the control panel hidden away in the bowels for sys-admins and legacy use cases?

You're grasping at straws here for an argument. That's like saying "my car has an UX issues because it lets me change the volume of the radio from two different places, the radio front panel knob and the buttons on my steering wheel, and those buttons look different than the knob".

>Average users do poke around the Control Panel, e.g. to install a printer.

It's 2022. If you need to poke around in control panel to install a printer you might be writing this from windows 95 or from a stuffy corporate environment in which case IT will do it for you. Windows 10 & 11 automatically installed my Canon and my Brother printers at home. It's 2022.

foogazi
> I am trying to move her away from Windows

Maybe you need relationship advice instead of tech advice

get her the best windows laptop you can afford, make sure it's secured properly with updates and such and that it "just works"

you get inherit the old laptop, put an ssd on it and install whatever linux flavor you want

everyone is happy

lcall
And then after some forced upgrades to versions she doesn't want and said "no" to, but Microsoft knew better and did it anyway (what happened to us), you can explain the alternatives and your experiences (stability, works well on old hardware, fewer viruses, free upgrades for life, local trust and control if/as desired, never a forced upgrade, easy and essentially no re-learning required [see my other comment in this discussion, with XFCE and some desktop icons and CUPS there was practically no re-learning as a user, but I was available to provide support as a long-time user], and let her decide differently if she wants.

That's my general experience anyway. Though I admit, there have been some minor adventures with printing.

lcall
Maybe I should add: paid support is available, per the OS web sites where they list consultants. I mean, one is not only limited to searching/asking online. I have never used it but am glad to know it is there. And now you have decision-making control, yourself, over the system.
flint
Hire some else to do it. Never explain technology to your wife.
coherentpony
I don't agree with "don't educate someone" being a defensible position.

I teach my wife things all the time, including technology. She teaches me things all the time, including technology.

vehemenz
Why are you trying to move her away from Windows, when that's what she is familiar with?
sys_64738
If you must, then Linux Mint would be my recommendation. She can keep using Office apps via Office 365 in Microsoft Edge.
andrewmutz
I recently switched to Pop OS from the mac and I love it. Another solid option is a chromebook.
luc_
>It is going to sound a little weird and if it does not belong here, let me know and I will remove the post, but I am looking for some advice.

Seems pretty weird, maybe you should remove the post and let your wife choose her own OS that suits her needs.

smallerfish
I get this from the perspective of not wanting to be IT support for windows issues (I've only used linux for the past 22 years, with a brief period of OSX at work, and find windows generally really annoying, aside from having a philosophical hangover from 1990s MS). I put my computer phobic father on Linux 15 years ago, and he's been fine with it.

Your issue is software. LibreOffice frankly looks bad compared to MS Office, and it will be a poor experience for her. If she's OK with google docs, then that friction at least is removed. What else does she use? Krita's good if she's a very light Photoshop user. You'll also want to make 100% sure that the hardware you get is well supported by Linux - you can't afford any wake from suspend, external monitor, or audio issues, or your credibility is shot (maybe get a Dell XPS developer edition with Ubuntu preinstalled). And be prepared to install Windows (promptly) if she encounters any issues or frustration other than a mild learning curve.

You could also consider a powerful enough Chromebook.

rngname22
First step: ask yourself if this is really a worthwhile pursuit.

Then ask yourself again.

Then ask yourself, of all possible changes I could ask my wife to make for me and my happiness (spending more time together at social events or at home, getting more dressed up for fancy occasions, changing some frustrating personal habit in the household, communicating differently, etc) is this the one I want to cash in my chips for or should I hold out and use them for something more important.