No function keys is a complete deal breaker for me. I do not care about layers or whatever ergonomic arguments that arise. I want to be able to mash F5 and start the debugger whenever I need it.
Also, $439 is a very stiff price. I thought my Freestyle Pro at ~$150 was already luxurious.
OP here. The function keys can be accessed via the FN layer. I’ve added new keymap images where you can see each individual layer. The old Advantage2’s FN keys were not good, so they get rid of it. If you start using layers, you’ll see that most key combos or keys are not actually that useful.
Layout layers are the future. Mapping more than three keys per finger is unergonomic. You want to switch between layers quickly with modifier keys actuated by your thumb. With this approach you can ergonomically access 204 symbols (34 (pads) * 3 (layers) * 2 (shift)) with 34 keys.
Heck even three pads per finger is too much imo and I need to devote more research into two pad per finger layouts which rely on multi-pad press combos (stenography) to avoid using the bottom row and pinkies.
Till then you'll probably catch me using MTGAP 30 on an ANSI.
I type a lot but not that much typing that pads per finger would be an issue for me. I use f keys for changing desktops (ctrl + Fx) and I use the media keys to change volume. The later I use infrequently and not having a symbol on a key wouldn't work for me, I wouldn't remember where it is...
You can still use layers even though there is an extra row of keys so not sure why to remove keys other people rely on.
> … so not sure why to remove keys other people rely on.
It’s nice for some people, including me, too have fewer rows of keys because then I have greater confidence in my peripheral vision. Extra rows introduce uncertainty.
The keyboard's firmware is very flexible- you can remap all of the keys, and also do things like "mod tap" or "layer tap"- for example, when I tap the backspace key (one of the thumb buttons), it sends a backspace. If I hold the key down, it puts they keyboard into a layout where I can more easily access the symbols used commonly in programming. I have the delete key (which is next to it in the thumb cluster) act as an extra Ctrl key when held down.
I used to feel the same. So when I was looking for some relief and an ergonomic layout, I picked the X-Bows. It has fn keys and was a nice introduction into the non-standard layouts. It made a big difference for me.
Then I picked up a keyboardio atreus. It took me a few weeks to get comfortable with it. But now using layers feels natural- I don’t have to leave the home row!
I've also got the freestyle pro, I can't really imagine wanting a fancier keyboard (but if anyone wants my F-keys they can have them, the things are useless mostly).
I have two Freestyle Edges as well, but they are mostly collecting dust now. Once your are used to the column stagger, key wells, and thumb keys of the Advantage, there is not really a way back. I dread typing on a row stagger single/split spacebar keyboard now.
(That said, the Freestyle Pro/Edge is an awesome board for a more traditional layout, especially with the tenting kit.)
With layers, you mash the F5 key even faster, without moving your wrists. Usually you press a layer selection key with one hand, and the F5 on that layer with the other, in one fluid movement.
In my case, I understand the benefits of layers, and it's actually the thing I miss the most on my Keychron K2, which I otherwise enjoy, and is the reason I'm eyeing the newer QMK-based models.
But I also specifically want to be able to avoid layers in some situations. I sometimes want to be able to use the keyboard while I'm not in "full-on typing mode".
For example, if one of my hands is busy holding an apple. I would like to be able to change the volume with a single key press, or step the debugger, or refresh the webpage, etc. And that's an absolute pain to do if I need to press multiple keys, especially if the keys I'd need to press would be designed for "one fluid movement", basically requiring two hands. Bonus points for the keyboard being split, so there's no hope for a single hand to reach both keys.
What I'm trying to say is that I see a case for actually having both possibilities on the same keyboard. They don't have to be exclusive. I can have layers and use those when I'm typing, and have them set up for two-handed use. I could use those even if the keyboard had physical Fx and media keys. And for a gigantic and expensive keyboard such as the one discussed here, or any of the similar models, the price difference would be negligible, both cash and size wise.
The way many of these keyboards work with layering makes it a functional requirement rather than a choice. For the (very) premium price, I would rather they include the additional keys and let me decide if I want to utilize layering. I have enough low-utilization keys that I want always accessible without any impediment.
My desk is not space constrained such that an additional physical row or two of keys is going to make my workspace unusable. If I choose to embrace layering and never use the F-keys, fine. However, if I want to only ever utilize 12 keys and do some monstrous chording setup, also an option.
I think removing the function row goes hand in hand with other design decisions.
Comparing to the freestyle pro, this advantage360: neither has a numpad.
But the advantage360 also has: symmetrical / not row staggered, more keys for the thumb to reach (rather than just a big spacebar) which allows for reduced pinky finger usage.
I think removing the function row follows coherently in line with these other decisions.
Looks good! A customizable split keyboard was one of the better investments I've made recently. No more hand pain after my work day.
Retail options like the Kinesis and Moonlander are perfectly fine products, but there is also an abundance of (typically open-source) keyboard designs these days:
This post might nerd snipe you and destroy your life. Stop reading here. Keyboards are a rabbit hole but I spent at least a week of my life searching and trying out existing optimized layouts. Then I got fed up and tried to optimize my own keyboard layouts on my own corpora. All this snowballed once I realized how massive the ergonomic and RSI problems with QWERTY are.
I went down the rabbit hole and came out realizing that the Kinesis Advantage2 is just a fantastic allround ergonomic keyboard. Kinesis has been at it for 25-30 years and seem to have a good idea of the trade-offs and have found an (probably local) optimum.
I still like building keyboards as a hobby, it’s a lot of fun (but expensive). But none have felt so good so far as the Advantage (which felt great from day one).
I’d love to buy a 360, but the price is a bit steep…
If you pay attention to builds and commentary on them after completion a lot of people begrudgingly dislike the Dactyl Manuform layout because it is uncomfortable for them and awful to type on. That said I never tried one myself. Just be careful and don't assume it's automatically going to be good for you! I think the layout is parametric but who knows exactly how to adjust the parameters?
That was my experience. I went from an ergodox to a dactyl manuform and at first I found it great. But that went to good to decent. I did not jive with something about the curvature + layout, even though I could touch type at a good speed.
I ended up switching to a moonlander and find it is more enjoyable. I also found it an improvement over the ergodox, because the clusters are more thought out and the tenting has less degrees of freedom so is easier to get just right.
> a lot of people begrudgingly dislike the Dactyl Manuform layout because it is uncomfortable for them and awful to type on
Part of this is just the nature of ergonomic keyboards. Each one is usually solving a set of very specific ergonomic problems. If you don't have that set of problems it can be either a lateral move or even a regression in your comfort/pain level.
My wrists are fucked up from years of skateboarding and mountain biking. Going to curved key wells helped me a lot because it lets me freeze my wrists in a comfortable position and still hit keys far from the home row. And having a fully split keyboard helps me find those comfortable wrist positions easier. With those requirements, a split Dactyl was a good choice and worked out well for me.
I use an ergodox, and while kinesis comes so highly recommended, there is always something about their design aesthetic that rubs me the wrong way, like the uncanny valley between utility and nintendo powerglove.
I just want a fresh supply of the old Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboards from the late 90s/early 2000s, before they started using chiclet keys or mushy switches. (The model with a USB and PS/2 option.)
It's mostly a matter of discipline to not run back to what you're comfortable with to get used to unusual layouts. They will become second nature to you if you use them long enough.
I am not suggesting that you must do this, mind you. Just that you almost certainly could get used to it if you forced yourself to. The benefits of doing so may not be worthwhile, though.
The Advantage360 feels like Kinesis' answer to the DIY Dactyl keyboard — which has a Kinesis-like layout, but which you would have to download, 3D-print, build and solder yourself. Being open-source (parametric SCAD), there are also a bunch of derived designs out there.
FWIW I'm playing around with a design for a kind of Dactyl with hotswap switches and SMD assembly. Idea is that you can send the PCBs to JLCPCB for fabrication and assembly, order the 3D printed case and some switches, then assemble the whole keyboard with no soldering.
There are exactly three main things ergonomic keyboards need in order to be correctly ergonomic:
1) Split (so the distance is adjustable for your body, depending on your shoulder width)
2) Two axes of adjustable tilt (sides tented down, far side angled down)
3) Palm rests for when not typing
It's shocking to me how many ergonomic keyboards get the first two wrong -- they're not split, and/or the axes aren't adjustable at all or only one is.
This keyboard is split (yay!) but appears to be adjustable only along one axis (boo).
Any recommendations for a keyboard that does everything well?
I have found Microsoft Sculpt to be pretty decent. In particular, it has negative tilt which I think is the most ergonomic option. Build quality is not very good, though. And I would prefer a wired option for a lower latency. Also, I have heard they are no longer produced and they are just selling stocked items. Interestingly, I do not dislike their shallow keyswitches. I find them much less tiring in the long run, and I type much faster.
If my Sculpt dies and I can’t replace it (a useful thing to know is they have a 3 year warranty, in the UK at least, so when a key inevitably fell off my last one I was able to get it replaced for free! I didn’t realise the warranty was this long previously and just bought another), I might try the Logitech K860. Looks nice, though I’d rather not have the num pad.
This Advantage360 looks pretty great but I wonder how easy it will be to ship to the UK, when I last looked into these more bespoke keyboards it was a bit of a hassle and increased the price significantly.
I switched from the sculpt to the Logitech and I'm pretty happy with that choice. It helps that I also have the ergo max trackball and they both run on the same transceiver.
A keyboard tray would offer the additional axis of tilt. But my keyboard tray’s depth does not fit my kinesis advantage2 and I doubt it would fit this. And I bought the largest tray I could find.
All three of these are dwarfed by key wells (i.e. do the keys sit in an indentation, or do you have to tilt your wrists upwards?) for me. It's always subjective.
It's actually entirely objective, in terms of the amount of tension you need to hold in the muscles connected to your shoulders, elbows, and wrists. You're looking to maintain a neutral position in all of those, to minimize tension there. There's nothing subjective whatsoever about that, tension is very observable.
Second, I would very much push back on key wells for the general population. Adjustable tilt forwards on a flat keyboard achieves everything you need for neutral wrist position and relaxed fingers, so that you're always typing slightly "downwards". Key wells try to accomplish a weird goal of holding your arms/hands in a fixed position and typing with just your fingers, instead of typing with your whole arm floating in an integrated shoulder-to-fingertip movement. If you have some kind of arm movement problem/disability then concave wells might be the best solution, but for the general population the wells are more awkward to use in the upper rows of keys, increasing the forearm tension which controls the fingers. (As a general rule, tension is usually minimized overall by distributing work across as many muscles as possible that involve longer muscle trains, rather than localizing work in shorter areas. That, for example, is why people say to lift with your back, not with your arms.)
This is why I'm telling you this is subjective, as much as you'd like to reduce it to some "objective" criteria. I broke my wrist a few years ago, and since then typing on anything without key wells is a bad idea.
I've seen too much advice like yours leading to people with some specific problem going "but I'm doing everything correctly, how am I still experiencing problems?!".
Sorry, yes -- if you have a wrist injury that makes perfect sense.
And that's precisely why I wrote that key wells were a bad idea unless you had an injury/disability.
And on the one hand I do want to stress that this is still entirely objective -- it's about actual objective muscle function, it's not subjective opinion. But on the other hand, I can appreciate how frustrating it can be when the advice is geared for people without injury, but presenting it as if it applies to everyone including those with injuries. Sorry if I came across that way. It's just my own frustration with so many quack "ergonomic" products that defend their products which create injuries by suggesting that consumers should just decide for themselves, because the manufacturers are just providing "options".
Another obvious thing that few keyboards get right is to use the thumb in opposition to the fingers. Practically that means chords should involve the thumb and another finger. The Kinesis thumb keys aren’t bad for this.
Anyone wanting to design a keyboard or even just remap an existing one should read John Napier’s excellent book Hands[1].
For me, the most important thing by far is to not have to extend my pinkies to another column. A good thumb cluster and mod-tap implementation dwarf any of what you listed for my needs.
I’ve been enjoying this keyboard a lot as well. Unfortunately, it seems to randomly keep waking up my MacBook every several minutes and the only fix I’ve been able to find is to manually turn the switch off when I’m done using the computer.
I’m also not a huge fan of having to charge both sides individually although so far the battery life seems quite good. I don’t move my computer often and use a dock so it would be nice to be able to just leave it plugged in without worrying about battery, but doing that requires both sides to each have a cable plugged into a power source.
I entertained buying the advantage (maybe 2?) before ultimately buying a keyboardio model 1. The main things I didn't like about the advantage was the fixed geometry and small/awkward function keys. Had this been out, it would have been strongly considered, looks like it addressed my primary concerns.
That said, I loved the keyboardio so much that I recently received the updated model 100, and love it more than the original. The hot swappable switches are great, and the layout is really efficient for me (admittedly, took a frustrating few weeks to get proficient).
Knowing what I do now, I'd personally choose the keyboardio 100 over the kinesis 360, but I'm glad there is another flexible high quality split kb on the market.
I recently switched to the Advantage 2 (after trying the Kyria, Ferris, and Freestyle Edge). And now I feel that there is no way back after having experienced the Advantage’s key wells. They are just fantastic. So, I think from now on, the Advantage 2/360, Dactyl, and perhaps Glove80 are the only options for me.
I don’t really use function keys, but if I did, I’d just map them to the second layer.
No, you can comfortably rest your palms on the wood with your fingers on the home row and you either don't tough or just barely rest the joint of your thumb on the fun keys. To actually press them, you have to consciously press down with that thumb joint (sounds a bit awkward, but really becomes second nature immediately). It's extremely comfortable and ergonomic.
Wells on the Keyboardio are pretty shallow; nothing like a Kinesis.
(I'm a Model 01 user since 2017 and currently typing this on a Model 100, resting my palms on the wood).
I got the Kinesis Advantage2 last year. I got used to it, almost reaching my laptop typing speed. But I actually don't find it super comfortable.
To be honest, no keyboard matches the comfort of my macbook with the keyboard being under the level of the palms.
I also more recently got the keychron K3 (low profile) and realized that the thing I don't like in the KA2 is my wrists being locked.
I think it's not enough to consider a keyboard without a complete setup, including where the hands / arms will rest and where the mouse is positioned.
For example even the distance of my laptop stand makes a huge difference because it affects how far my keyboard can be from my torso, hence whether where my arms rest on the table.
I'd like to try a split keyboard, but I'm just going to come out and say it - I like numpads. I have mine set up to snap windows to different parts of the screen, and it's great.
For whatever reason, moving my hand across a large keyboard feels... fine. More comfortable than pressing multiple modifier keys.
Numpad is essential if you use software that takes advantage of it, like Blender.
I made a split keyboard that put the num pad in the middle since that space is normally wasted, but it wasn't very nice to use. Neither of your hands appear from your gut, which is where it would need to be to use the number pad comfortably (and that's why traditional keyboards put off to one side). I just chord to get the number pad keys now.
There are probably keyboards that put the number pad on your left. That might be the perfect match for a right-handed mouse user. (Left-handed mouse users have been happy for decades, I bet.)
I used kinesis advantage for about two months. Ended switching to Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and have never been happier - haven't switched the keyboard since - about 4 years now. Coding on Kinesis was just such a pain in terms of usual keys - braces et all: weird, up down arrows: weird. I thought I would adjust after two months, but did not happen for me. YMMV
I'm convinced they used such a weird placement of some things like that to prompt/goad people into exploring the built-in remapping.
The bizarre separation of the arrow keys into left-right and up-down on two different hands was the very first thing I fixed. Now the bottom four keys on my right keywell are left, down, up, right (and I moved the square brackets to the left hand where the left/right were).
(This isn't really ideal because now [] requires a lot of finger travel to type compared to how often I type them. I was excited for the 360 supporting ZMK but I've sworn off bluetooth where it can be avoided, so I'm probably going to just keep my plain-old Advantage until it dies and see if they're "fixed" the 360 line.)
I’ve been an Advantage user for almost eight years and I can’t imagine using anything else. I type with it on my lap and it feels perfectly comfortable so I probably won’t rush to buy this model. But if I did, the portability would be an immediate win. The original Advantage is massive and its comfortable typing shape makes for an awkward size in backpacks. This would be a huge win for any Advantage user who likes to work from different desks.
people don't understand the typing on the lap thing. I can use the keyboard in a variety of different positions (including lying down), and my wrists never come in at a strange angle.
I'd love bluetooth, but have two separate units in the 360 doesn't really work for me...I guess I could make something like their bridge that's a little more sturdy and adjustable.
I'm designing an extended (i.e. no layers) version of Atreus that's still portable by having some smaller keys, will eventually talk about it more on https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers
This looks excellent, but I was hoping for something other than Bluetooth.
I have sworn by Logitech wireless accessories for years because of their integrated wireless which presents to the OS as a regular USB device driver, so I can use the accessories in BIOS, during OS installations, etc without any hassle.
I also like the Logitech USB dongles because I find the Windows Bluetooth keyboard support to be very much a second class citizen, with slow performance and the keyboad noticeably lags both randomly and when the system is under load, unlike a USB device.
This got me wondering if there was some solution for this, such as having a Bluetooth keyboard communicate with another piece of hardware that replayed the inputs as USB. Or perhaps Windows has upped their game in the couple of years since I last tried a Bluetooth keyboard?
I know on Mac it just works (tm) but sadly I cannot escape Windows at work at the moment.
Sounds like you can always just plug it in as well. I’ve heard lots of stories of the Logitech stuff causing interference (I think it’s 2.4ghz IIRC?), and then you also need a dongle. I understand your windows needs (versus say a laptop), but why not just be wired when you need to access the bios?
Having just built a small PC after having used Macs for years, I was _astounded_ how reliant they are on plug-in keyboards. It's like I'm in the late 1990s again!
There are forum comments like "wait, what are you trying to do, bluetooth keyboards are only for mobile devices and Macs, aren't they?", like that's an acceptable thing. I'm not sure about Windows, but you can't even wake Linux from sleep with a bluetooth keyboard or mouse!
> you can't even wake Linux from sleep with a bluetooth keyboard or mouse!
There's an Arch Wiki page pretending otherwise [0]. I haven't tested it, however, since I think that's a feature. I hate having my computer randomly wake up just because I move the mouse accidentally.
I don't understand why they got rid of the F-keys.
The keyboard is a beast; no one is using it for portability. Why make it smaller by losing a row of keys? (Do the opposite — add another couple of rows, for kicks! Moonlander adds a column [1])
Same for Bluetooth — I don't get the attraction — when are you taking your giant keyboard away from your desk? If you never needed to plug it in, that would be slightly better, but it still needs to be charged. Even if it's only a few ms of extra latency, what's the upside?
This is more idiosyncratic, but I put a Magic Trackpad in the center of the Advantage2 [2] — highly recommended — so losing that center piece is worse for me.
Having carried a Kinesis Advantage many times in luggage, I personally appreciate this is easier to pack and won't miss the function keys much / at all.
The advantage360 loses the function key row but does add two interior columns, similar to the moonlander's.
I'm less concerned with the F keys but I'd miss the Esc key in the upper-left, and the printscrn and volume buttons.
I don't put anything in the vast middle space of my advantage2 but I appreciate the single piece design and the physical cable. Not sure if the advantage360 is right for me either.
I have a Moonlander and mapped the key that typically in the caps lock position (just to the left of 'A') to escape, and - depending on if I'm in mac or windows mode - ⌘-W/Ctrl-W on double-tap and ⌘-Q/Alt-F4 on tap-hold. Makes it really easy to close modals, windows, and applications.
There are 4 buttons in the center columns that have no use on the default layer — they are simply bound to 1, 2, 3, and 4. You could use two of them for dedicated volume keys and one of them for print screen.
They do also offer a base Advantage 360 that is wired and the two pieces are connected with a usb-c cable. The downside is it does not have ZMK, but their own smartset firmware.
When the keyboard lets your thumb reach 2-3 buttons each, you get to use the thumb more, which allows using the pinky finger less. (Which is nice, since the pinky finger is weaker than the thumb).
I find it quite nice to use my thumbs for Tab/Esc/Space, Backspace/Enter/Delete.
The placement of Escape at the top left corner seems to engage the weak pinky finger, but reflecting on how I actually hit Escape (on a run of the mill keyboard layout), my muscle memory moves my left hand far enough to bash Escape with my middle and/or index finger. Trying to press it with my pinky feels super awkward; even ring finger feels better.
That said, I'd love a chance to try out the Kinesis 360 and see if loading the thumbs is the comfort boost I didn't know I needed.
I actually got the non-pro model specifically cause I found the Bluetooth silly. At the same time the lack of a function row on this serves two purposes.
First, if you look at the advantage the function keys were membrane and were not good to use. The style of keyboard makes it hard to have a lot depth on the keyboard so it’s safer to just cut the row off now and use layers.
Second, it literally saves you a whole row of mechanical switches which by itself is a large savings in any board.
It does but the shape was as bad as the mush and best as I can tell they are still smaller. I think I would still take the new layout over it. The 360 does have macro key which you can map to common function keys if you really don’t want to layer the function row.
It's kind of interesting, probably the majority of split-keyboards lack F-keys. Heck, a bunch of them even don't have numeric keys, relying on layering instead: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards
I'd expand on 'relying on layering' as 'trading off hand movement for added complexity'.
I use a smaller layout without a number row. I noticed that when I had to use my laptop's keyboard, pressing the ` key was quite annoying since it required either reaching/moving my hand; whereas on a reduced layout, I found it more convenient to not have to move my hand.
They are designed with a main focus on reaching every key comfortably from the home position. So removing that extra row makes sense, it's too far anyway.
> Same for Bluetooth — I don't get the attraction — when are you taking your giant keyboard away from your desk? If you never needed to plug it in, that would be slightly better, but it still needs to be charged. Even if it's only a few ms of extra latency, what's the upside?
For many people the aesthetic advantage of not having cords on your desk is more than enough.
I could see Bluetooth being useful if the keyboard allows for easily switching between devices: your significant other texts you on the phone, so you quickly switch it to your phone to type out a message, then switch back. (I don't know if this keyboard can do that though.)
I bought a wireless Microsoft ergonomic keyboard a decade ago, with the idea that I could kickback in my chair, with my feet on the desk, and type away with the keyboard in my lap. I've done that maybe five times in the ten years of owning the keyboard. It was not worth the dropped/overly-repeated keypresses over the years (though it was wireless, but not Bluetooth).
I'm looking forward to getting my glove80 in the next month or two, which supports multiple devices via Bluetooth or one device via USB.
In my experience switching between devices with bluetooth is more hassle than it’s worth.
The only thing that does it decently is my speaker, but for keyboard and mouse I have a KVM switch (that tries to do something smart with the keyboard that leads to dropped keys, which is also mega annoying).
No cables also means you constantly have to charge. Even if your keyboard lasts a week that means that once a week in the middle of something it just dies.
If you put it on the charger every night, then what was the point of not having cables :/
And then there is the annoying interference. Sometimes, my AirPods would constantly drop out during a video meeting, until I switched off my Magic Keyboard/Trackpad. Or in some environments, the sculpt would only work reliably if I put the dongle on a USB dock or cable right next to the keyboard.
I hate Bluetooth.
Luckily the base 360 is wired. Though no QMK (and obviously no ZMK), though smartset is pretty ok to. Especially now that they have more than two layers, would love it if they backported that to the Advantage 2.
The F-keys won't be useful for me. Reaching them would require me to move my palms.
After using split keyboards for some time, I came up with a setup that only uses 3 rows, and relies on layer switching (mostly using the thumb clusters) to quickly access any keys.
Maybe on a highly curved keyboard like the Kinesis hitting F-keys would be just a matter of bending your fingers more, and not a matter of moving your palm though.
Agree! main points I don't like about the 360 are the missing F-keys and wireless, i.e. the need to charge it constantly. In this line, a use hub would be nice to connect a mouse like it is possible for the old Advantage..
“ During these eleven months of waiting, the customs law here in Turkey changed numerous times. Because the keyboard cost more than 150 euros, I could no longer withdraw it from customs, and I had to arrange a company specialized in importing goods from customs. After some time preparing notarized documents and paying almost %50 of the base price I paid for the Advantage2 360 Pro”
I can understand somewhat the import duties, but why the rigamarole?
I backed the Dygma defy https://dygma.com/products/dygma-defy earlier this year. Iirc it was just days or weeks before the kinesis360 announcement. But I don’t care, I’m just so excited for there to be 2 very high quality boards that are really pushing the envelope. Looking forward to comparisons between the two
> I've used the Apple Magic Keyboard wirelessly for years with no latency issues.
I think the logic here is subtly wrong. I think it’s pretty likely that Apple thoroughly test their keyboards to make sure Bluetooth works well and that they have low end to end latency. I think most other keyboard makers don’t test these things, even if they claim to be fast. Though Apple also have an advantage from the small travel decreasing time between touching a key and the switch closing, which may be part of the measured latency depending on the methodology
the lack of F-keys is baffling. The vertical real estate is non-issue on a desktop, you win nothing by getting rid of the F-row.
the lack of "]" and "\" keys is a deal-breaker for non-English layouts. The moment you have more letters in the alphabet than 26, you have to readjust your typing habit for the other language.
In the world of fully-custom DIY keyboard that's way too much to compromise on for a high-end keyboard
> the lack of F-keys is baffling. The vertical real estate is non-issue on a desktop, you win nothing by getting rid of the F-row.
It's not too outlandish considering the rest of the keyboard, compared to a standard keyboard.
It looks like the Kinesis Advantage 360 is really intended for you to use it with two hands on home row. So, compared to a common layout:
- it's symmetrical & isn't row-staggered,
- lacks the numpad/cursor keys/etc. (which would require your hand moving some distance),
- it lacks a giant spacebar, and instead offers more keys the thumb can reach.
So, many of the design decisions favour hands resting on home row, and getting rid of keys which require moving the hand some distance. -- Dropping the F-keys is in line with this.
The review is extensive; it would be easy to lose the forest for the trees, in terms of features and gestalt. Anyone who hasn't tried the Advantage 2 should consider that along with the Advantage 360.
Bluetooth, function keys, and plastic shine aside, the key question for the 360 is whether tenting, splaying, and adjustable width makes the ergonomics better.
Advantage key wells help maintain a neutral and stable major axis of the wrist (flexion/extension). That's the main cause of carpal tunnel, and a proven benefit.
The 360's tenting, splaying, and adjustable width help
- maintain neutral minor axis of the wrist (radial/ulnar deviation)
- reduce arm tension for wider shoulders and/or more arm muscle tone
- maintain neutral forearm pronation
Unlike key wells, none of these axes are actually in use while keying; they are stable, so they add tension but not overuse. On the other hand, an under-appreciated benefit of splitting and tenting is that they reduce your ability to lean on the keyboard to compensate for posture issues, and may reduce the tendency to hit keys hard.
So feature-wide, the split/tented design has ergonomic promise, but might not be a significant benefit if you have good form with the Advantage. So yes, it is worth trying on feature grounds.
The gestalt is a bit more like your take on engineering complexity, and whether additional degrees of freedom are optimizing or confusing. Either way, it depends on your ergonomic profile: necessity or desire.
I started with necessity: RSI makes you exquisitely sensitive to excess tension and movement. But soon it became desire: I found that I can think more clearly, and feel much more fresh after a long day, when keyboarding is effortless -- if I need no more focus on typing than I do on my tongue when speaking.
Like a marriage (or Steve Job's rock tumbler?), getting to effortless requires endless work chipping away even tiny sharp edges; observing your muscle tension, noticing what key combinations are usable and memorable. Building touch typing fluency, including syntax and commands for multiple applications, into muscle memory. It's much closer to engineering backends at internet scale than prototyping on rails for 300 clients. You may even find that smoothing your own ergonomics makes you happier and more vested in a long-term approach.
I have an Advantage2 with a magic trackpad in the middle (like maximilianroos), and a tilted tray with raised platform for mice. I've used the Kinesis deep-well split keyboards for ~24 years, and would pay 5X the price if I had to. The company has fantastic support and now is battling a flurry of pop-up product managers offshoring me-too design and manufacturing. High-end keyboards are a small market, and I wonder how long Kinesis will last.
The 360 is mostly unobtainium. They sold out in hours, crashed the website, and only now (months later) announced another limited tranch available via third parties.
If the 360 is interesting and you don't have an Advantage, consider the Advantage2. Give yourself a 2-4 (exclusive) weeks, to the point where you can touch-type and forget about the keyboard. By then you'll either be on board with continuous improvement or not, and the 360 will be just another increment to try.
111 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 117 ms ] threadAlso, $439 is a very stiff price. I thought my Freestyle Pro at ~$150 was already luxurious.
Heck even three pads per finger is too much imo and I need to devote more research into two pad per finger layouts which rely on multi-pad press combos (stenography) to avoid using the bottom row and pinkies.
Till then you'll probably catch me using MTGAP 30 on an ANSI.
You can still use layers even though there is an extra row of keys so not sure why to remove keys other people rely on.
It’s nice for some people, including me, too have fewer rows of keys because then I have greater confidence in my peripheral vision. Extra rows introduce uncertainty.
https://zmk.dev/docs/behaviors/hold-tap
Then I picked up a keyboardio atreus. It took me a few weeks to get comfortable with it. But now using layers feels natural- I don’t have to leave the home row!
Having an F5 foot pedal would be fun…
(That said, the Freestyle Pro/Edge is an awesome board for a more traditional layout, especially with the tenting kit.)
But I also specifically want to be able to avoid layers in some situations. I sometimes want to be able to use the keyboard while I'm not in "full-on typing mode".
For example, if one of my hands is busy holding an apple. I would like to be able to change the volume with a single key press, or step the debugger, or refresh the webpage, etc. And that's an absolute pain to do if I need to press multiple keys, especially if the keys I'd need to press would be designed for "one fluid movement", basically requiring two hands. Bonus points for the keyboard being split, so there's no hope for a single hand to reach both keys.
What I'm trying to say is that I see a case for actually having both possibilities on the same keyboard. They don't have to be exclusive. I can have layers and use those when I'm typing, and have them set up for two-handed use. I could use those even if the keyboard had physical Fx and media keys. And for a gigantic and expensive keyboard such as the one discussed here, or any of the similar models, the price difference would be negligible, both cash and size wise.
My solution: use the laptop keyboard for casual button pushing or even casual typing.
That solution works if and only if your computer is a laptop.
I tend to think this is more a matter of preference, so, sure, this keyboard isn't for you.
But what's your experience with layering? Is it "tried it, reached the same typing speed as before, didn't like it", or?
My desk is not space constrained such that an additional physical row or two of keys is going to make my workspace unusable. If I choose to embrace layering and never use the F-keys, fine. However, if I want to only ever utilize 12 keys and do some monstrous chording setup, also an option.
Comparing to the freestyle pro, this advantage360: neither has a numpad.
But the advantage360 also has: symmetrical / not row staggered, more keys for the thumb to reach (rather than just a big spacebar) which allows for reduced pinky finger usage.
I think removing the function row follows coherently in line with these other decisions.
Retail options like the Kinesis and Moonlander are perfectly fine products, but there is also an abundance of (typically open-source) keyboard designs these days:
https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards
https://golem.hu/boards/
Note that anything that runs QMK and Pro Micro MCUs can generally be made wireless using ZMK and nice!nano MCUs.
Be warned that it's a deep rabbit hole. Personally I use and really enjoy the TBK Mini:
https://github.com/Bastardkb/TBK-Mini
I still like building keyboards as a hobby, it’s a lot of fun (but expensive). But none have felt so good so far as the Advantage (which felt great from day one).
I’d love to buy a 360, but the price is a bit steep…
I ended up switching to a moonlander and find it is more enjoyable. I also found it an improvement over the ergodox, because the clusters are more thought out and the tenting has less degrees of freedom so is easier to get just right.
Part of this is just the nature of ergonomic keyboards. Each one is usually solving a set of very specific ergonomic problems. If you don't have that set of problems it can be either a lateral move or even a regression in your comfort/pain level.
My wrists are fucked up from years of skateboarding and mountain biking. Going to curved key wells helped me a lot because it lets me freeze my wrists in a comfortable position and still hit keys far from the home row. And having a fully split keyboard helps me find those comfortable wrist positions easier. With those requirements, a split Dactyl was a good choice and worked out well for me.
https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
The official adoption of ZMK is a total win.
I’m all for moving the modifiers but I couldn’t deal with moving of `, =, [, ]
I am not suggesting that you must do this, mind you. Just that you almost certainly could get used to it if you forced yourself to. The benefits of doing so may not be worthwhile, though.
<https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard>
There is a PCB kit for the Dactyl to reduce the amount of handwiring:
<https://bastardkb.com/product/flexible-pcb/>
1) Split (so the distance is adjustable for your body, depending on your shoulder width)
2) Two axes of adjustable tilt (sides tented down, far side angled down)
3) Palm rests for when not typing
It's shocking to me how many ergonomic keyboards get the first two wrong -- they're not split, and/or the axes aren't adjustable at all or only one is.
This keyboard is split (yay!) but appears to be adjustable only along one axis (boo).
I have found Microsoft Sculpt to be pretty decent. In particular, it has negative tilt which I think is the most ergonomic option. Build quality is not very good, though. And I would prefer a wired option for a lower latency. Also, I have heard they are no longer produced and they are just selling stocked items. Interestingly, I do not dislike their shallow keyswitches. I find them much less tiring in the long run, and I type much faster.
This Advantage360 looks pretty great but I wonder how easy it will be to ship to the UK, when I last looked into these more bespoke keyboards it was a bit of a hassle and increased the price significantly.
It's actually entirely objective, in terms of the amount of tension you need to hold in the muscles connected to your shoulders, elbows, and wrists. You're looking to maintain a neutral position in all of those, to minimize tension there. There's nothing subjective whatsoever about that, tension is very observable.
Second, I would very much push back on key wells for the general population. Adjustable tilt forwards on a flat keyboard achieves everything you need for neutral wrist position and relaxed fingers, so that you're always typing slightly "downwards". Key wells try to accomplish a weird goal of holding your arms/hands in a fixed position and typing with just your fingers, instead of typing with your whole arm floating in an integrated shoulder-to-fingertip movement. If you have some kind of arm movement problem/disability then concave wells might be the best solution, but for the general population the wells are more awkward to use in the upper rows of keys, increasing the forearm tension which controls the fingers. (As a general rule, tension is usually minimized overall by distributing work across as many muscles as possible that involve longer muscle trains, rather than localizing work in shorter areas. That, for example, is why people say to lift with your back, not with your arms.)
I've seen too much advice like yours leading to people with some specific problem going "but I'm doing everything correctly, how am I still experiencing problems?!".
And that's precisely why I wrote that key wells were a bad idea unless you had an injury/disability.
And on the one hand I do want to stress that this is still entirely objective -- it's about actual objective muscle function, it's not subjective opinion. But on the other hand, I can appreciate how frustrating it can be when the advice is geared for people without injury, but presenting it as if it applies to everyone including those with injuries. Sorry if I came across that way. It's just my own frustration with so many quack "ergonomic" products that defend their products which create injuries by suggesting that consumers should just decide for themselves, because the manufacturers are just providing "options".
Anyone wanting to design a keyboard or even just remap an existing one should read John Napier’s excellent book Hands[1].
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1082840.Hands
I’m also not a huge fan of having to charge both sides individually although so far the battery life seems quite good. I don’t move my computer often and use a dock so it would be nice to be able to just leave it plugged in without worrying about battery, but doing that requires both sides to each have a cable plugged into a power source.
That said, I loved the keyboardio so much that I recently received the updated model 100, and love it more than the original. The hot swappable switches are great, and the layout is really efficient for me (admittedly, took a frustrating few weeks to get proficient).
Knowing what I do now, I'd personally choose the keyboardio 100 over the kinesis 360, but I'm glad there is another flexible high quality split kb on the market.
I don’t really use function keys, but if I did, I’d just map them to the second layer.
I really want one, but I'm not sure, I like resting my palm when typing.
Also, are the wells well curved/deep? I can't tell from static images on the web.
Thanks.
The keyboard is flat, but the caps are sculpted
Wells on the Keyboardio are pretty shallow; nothing like a Kinesis.
(I'm a Model 01 user since 2017 and currently typing this on a Model 100, resting my palms on the wood).
To be honest, no keyboard matches the comfort of my macbook with the keyboard being under the level of the palms.
I also more recently got the keychron K3 (low profile) and realized that the thing I don't like in the KA2 is my wrists being locked.
I think it's not enough to consider a keyboard without a complete setup, including where the hands / arms will rest and where the mouse is positioned.
For example even the distance of my laptop stand makes a huge difference because it affects how far my keyboard can be from my torso, hence whether where my arms rest on the table.
http://xahlee.info/kbd/glove80_keyboard.html
For whatever reason, moving my hand across a large keyboard feels... fine. More comfortable than pressing multiple modifier keys.
I made a split keyboard that put the num pad in the middle since that space is normally wasted, but it wasn't very nice to use. Neither of your hands appear from your gut, which is where it would need to be to use the number pad comfortably (and that's why traditional keyboards put off to one side). I just chord to get the number pad keys now.
There are probably keyboards that put the number pad on your left. That might be the perfect match for a right-handed mouse user. (Left-handed mouse users have been happy for decades, I bet.)
The bizarre separation of the arrow keys into left-right and up-down on two different hands was the very first thing I fixed. Now the bottom four keys on my right keywell are left, down, up, right (and I moved the square brackets to the left hand where the left/right were).
(This isn't really ideal because now [] requires a lot of finger travel to type compared to how often I type them. I was excited for the 360 supporting ZMK but I've sworn off bluetooth where it can be avoided, so I'm probably going to just keep my plain-old Advantage until it dies and see if they're "fixed" the 360 line.)
I'd love bluetooth, but have two separate units in the 360 doesn't really work for me...I guess I could make something like their bridge that's a little more sturdy and adjustable.
Have you considered an Atreus?
I'm designing an extended (i.e. no layers) version of Atreus that's still portable by having some smaller keys, will eventually talk about it more on https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers
I have sworn by Logitech wireless accessories for years because of their integrated wireless which presents to the OS as a regular USB device driver, so I can use the accessories in BIOS, during OS installations, etc without any hassle.
I also like the Logitech USB dongles because I find the Windows Bluetooth keyboard support to be very much a second class citizen, with slow performance and the keyboad noticeably lags both randomly and when the system is under load, unlike a USB device.
This got me wondering if there was some solution for this, such as having a Bluetooth keyboard communicate with another piece of hardware that replayed the inputs as USB. Or perhaps Windows has upped their game in the couple of years since I last tried a Bluetooth keyboard?
I know on Mac it just works (tm) but sadly I cannot escape Windows at work at the moment.
I did find this DIY solution while hunting for the apparently non-existent real one: https://github.com/houkanshan/arduino-bt-hid-proxy
There's an Arch Wiki page pretending otherwise [0]. I haven't tested it, however, since I think that's a feature. I hate having my computer randomly wake up just because I move the mouse accidentally.
[0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Bluetooth#Wake_from_suspend
> The Advantage2 was released in 2002
Advantage2 was released in 2016! Original Advantage was in 2002. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_(keyboard)
The keyboard is a beast; no one is using it for portability. Why make it smaller by losing a row of keys? (Do the opposite — add another couple of rows, for kicks! Moonlander adds a column [1])
Same for Bluetooth — I don't get the attraction — when are you taking your giant keyboard away from your desk? If you never needed to plug it in, that would be slightly better, but it still needs to be charged. Even if it's only a few ms of extra latency, what's the upside?
This is more idiosyncratic, but I put a Magic Trackpad in the center of the Advantage2 [2] — highly recommended — so losing that center piece is worse for me.
1: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
2: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
I'm less concerned with the F keys but I'd miss the Esc key in the upper-left, and the printscrn and volume buttons.
I don't put anything in the vast middle space of my advantage2 but I appreciate the single piece design and the physical cable. Not sure if the advantage360 is right for me either.
They do also offer a base Advantage 360 that is wired and the two pieces are connected with a usb-c cable. The downside is it does not have ZMK, but their own smartset firmware.
When the keyboard lets your thumb reach 2-3 buttons each, you get to use the thumb more, which allows using the pinky finger less. (Which is nice, since the pinky finger is weaker than the thumb).
I find it quite nice to use my thumbs for Tab/Esc/Space, Backspace/Enter/Delete.
That said, I'd love a chance to try out the Kinesis 360 and see if loading the thumbs is the comfort boost I didn't know I needed.
First, if you look at the advantage the function keys were membrane and were not good to use. The style of keyboard makes it hard to have a lot depth on the keyboard so it’s safer to just cut the row off now and use layers.
Second, it literally saves you a whole row of mechanical switches which by itself is a large savings in any board.
I use a smaller layout without a number row. I noticed that when I had to use my laptop's keyboard, pressing the ` key was quite annoying since it required either reaching/moving my hand; whereas on a reduced layout, I found it more convenient to not have to move my hand.
I haven't seen anybody do this yet with the 360, but a lot of split-keyboard users chair-mount them: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/xgqp7b/s...
I could see Bluetooth being handy for that.
For many people the aesthetic advantage of not having cords on your desk is more than enough.
I bought a wireless Microsoft ergonomic keyboard a decade ago, with the idea that I could kickback in my chair, with my feet on the desk, and type away with the keyboard in my lap. I've done that maybe five times in the ten years of owning the keyboard. It was not worth the dropped/overly-repeated keypresses over the years (though it was wireless, but not Bluetooth).
I'm looking forward to getting my glove80 in the next month or two, which supports multiple devices via Bluetooth or one device via USB.
The only thing that does it decently is my speaker, but for keyboard and mouse I have a KVM switch (that tries to do something smart with the keyboard that leads to dropped keys, which is also mega annoying).
No cables also means you constantly have to charge. Even if your keyboard lasts a week that means that once a week in the middle of something it just dies.
If you put it on the charger every night, then what was the point of not having cables :/
I hate Bluetooth.
Luckily the base 360 is wired. Though no QMK (and obviously no ZMK), though smartset is pretty ok to. Especially now that they have more than two layers, would love it if they backported that to the Advantage 2.
After using split keyboards for some time, I came up with a setup that only uses 3 rows, and relies on layer switching (mostly using the thumb clusters) to quickly access any keys.
Maybe on a highly curved keyboard like the Kinesis hitting F-keys would be just a matter of bending your fingers more, and not a matter of moving your palm though.
“ During these eleven months of waiting, the customs law here in Turkey changed numerous times. Because the keyboard cost more than 150 euros, I could no longer withdraw it from customs, and I had to arrange a company specialized in importing goods from customs. After some time preparing notarized documents and paying almost %50 of the base price I paid for the Advantage2 360 Pro”
I can understand somewhat the import duties, but why the rigamarole?
I think the logic here is subtly wrong. I think it’s pretty likely that Apple thoroughly test their keyboards to make sure Bluetooth works well and that they have low end to end latency. I think most other keyboard makers don’t test these things, even if they claim to be fast. Though Apple also have an advantage from the small travel decreasing time between touching a key and the switch closing, which may be part of the measured latency depending on the methodology
the lack of "]" and "\" keys is a deal-breaker for non-English layouts. The moment you have more letters in the alphabet than 26, you have to readjust your typing habit for the other language.
In the world of fully-custom DIY keyboard that's way too much to compromise on for a high-end keyboard
It's not too outlandish considering the rest of the keyboard, compared to a standard keyboard.
It looks like the Kinesis Advantage 360 is really intended for you to use it with two hands on home row. So, compared to a common layout:
- it's symmetrical & isn't row-staggered,
- lacks the numpad/cursor keys/etc. (which would require your hand moving some distance),
- it lacks a giant spacebar, and instead offers more keys the thumb can reach.
So, many of the design decisions favour hands resting on home row, and getting rid of keys which require moving the hand some distance. -- Dropping the F-keys is in line with this.
Bluetooth, function keys, and plastic shine aside, the key question for the 360 is whether tenting, splaying, and adjustable width makes the ergonomics better.
Advantage key wells help maintain a neutral and stable major axis of the wrist (flexion/extension). That's the main cause of carpal tunnel, and a proven benefit.
The 360's tenting, splaying, and adjustable width help
- maintain neutral minor axis of the wrist (radial/ulnar deviation)
- reduce arm tension for wider shoulders and/or more arm muscle tone
- maintain neutral forearm pronation
Unlike key wells, none of these axes are actually in use while keying; they are stable, so they add tension but not overuse. On the other hand, an under-appreciated benefit of splitting and tenting is that they reduce your ability to lean on the keyboard to compensate for posture issues, and may reduce the tendency to hit keys hard.
So feature-wide, the split/tented design has ergonomic promise, but might not be a significant benefit if you have good form with the Advantage. So yes, it is worth trying on feature grounds.
The gestalt is a bit more like your take on engineering complexity, and whether additional degrees of freedom are optimizing or confusing. Either way, it depends on your ergonomic profile: necessity or desire.
I started with necessity: RSI makes you exquisitely sensitive to excess tension and movement. But soon it became desire: I found that I can think more clearly, and feel much more fresh after a long day, when keyboarding is effortless -- if I need no more focus on typing than I do on my tongue when speaking.
Like a marriage (or Steve Job's rock tumbler?), getting to effortless requires endless work chipping away even tiny sharp edges; observing your muscle tension, noticing what key combinations are usable and memorable. Building touch typing fluency, including syntax and commands for multiple applications, into muscle memory. It's much closer to engineering backends at internet scale than prototyping on rails for 300 clients. You may even find that smoothing your own ergonomics makes you happier and more vested in a long-term approach.
I have an Advantage2 with a magic trackpad in the middle (like maximilianroos), and a tilted tray with raised platform for mice. I've used the Kinesis deep-well split keyboards for ~24 years, and would pay 5X the price if I had to. The company has fantastic support and now is battling a flurry of pop-up product managers offshoring me-too design and manufacturing. High-end keyboards are a small market, and I wonder how long Kinesis will last.
The 360 is mostly unobtainium. They sold out in hours, crashed the website, and only now (months later) announced another limited tranch available via third parties.
If the 360 is interesting and you don't have an Advantage, consider the Advantage2. Give yourself a 2-4 (exclusive) weeks, to the point where you can touch-type and forget about the keyboard. By then you'll either be on board with continuous improvement or not, and the 360 will be just another increment to try.