Ask HN: Experienced software engineer – but unable to consistently work

To expand, I am in the European union but since I've never paid social insurance I'm not eligible for any state help. I'm already in debt, this is just something I can't afford to pay. I had a lot of trouble paying my health insurance debt so I could go to the psychiatrist.

Regardless, in the POV of the state I'm a high income individual so I am not eligible anyways. I make about $50/hour and they don't care I'm out of a job for 2/3 of a year. Unemployment allowance office actually tried to call the police on me because they thought I'm trying to steal from the government.

ADHD is not recognized adult medical condition here so I can't be recognized as disabled.

Many unmedicated people with ADHD have this problem and have figured out their own process for working through the funk period.

On a personal level, exercise and coffee have been magical for me. When I'm not feeling it, the task is getting to the coffee pot, but once I'm there the motivation comes on its own. Walking 40-60 minutes outside does wonders as well.

> I'm unable to hold a job. I'm "the best programmer they've ever seen" but only for the first month - then they start to hate me because I'm not working.

I feel this lol

I've seen medication that can help with ADHD without necessarily having strain on the heart such as Semax - the problem being that it costs tons of money. There are also basic factors that can help you such as exercice and sleep. You can find them on PubMed and Reddit.

I've also found Beeminder+Toggl Track to help me get the initial boost to work even when unmedicated. It's a software combination that will make you pay e.g. 5€ if you don't work at least X hours today.

At small doses it's exciting, but depressing at high ones ;)

(I've spent +100€ on Beeminder but the ROI is wildly positive)

I definitely relate to this. Have you tried Upwork or similar temp work? I know it can be rough in its own ways, but it was critical for me to stay afloat during a particularly rough period.

Your best bet aside from temp work is finding a company whose culture is very open and compatible to your neurotype. You may even find success working with or even for an NGO/company which works with disability placement. We call them "Disability resource center" here, the name may vary.

Do you keep a mood journal, or otherwise track your productivity? I'd try to track what causes your down periods in the hopes of mitigating them. But also I know how random and arbitrary the fluctuations can feel.

Some ideas that work for me: - become a freelance, only accept short time jobs so you can deliver, get paid, and enjoy the free time when you can focus - ideate, advocate, and work on short interesting projects that can give you dopamine when your regular job becomes too boring to do. Example? I was feeling like this and I proposed I'd create an internal tool to read sms messages from Twilio to be used internally when we do manual QA of our app - try to change the physical location where you work at. Sometimes I go working at food halls in malls or at coffee shops, the change of environment resets something in my brain and I can focus again - find some sports that helps you. For me it's running, I tried other sports but it looks like what works for me is the prolonged effort and energy drain of running, which you don't get when doing weight lifting for example

You could certainly look into temp or contract work for very short duration one-off projects, etc. That kind of work is out there, but setting up a pipeline to get it reliably is probably hard.

> Programming is the only thing I can do - and the only thing that makes me enough money to survive.

I think you may want to re-evaluate this. Some people with ADHD do better in environments where they are on their feet, actively doing work, rather than sitting at a computer screen. It sounds like you need a job that you can still do even when you are not at your mental/emotional best, and where minimum focus is mandatory but not hard to achieve. Programming may just not be that job, or not all the time.

There are now lots of "gig economy" jobs that you can do whenever you want to do them. They're not always the highest-paying, but in exchange for that you get a ton of flexibility. Maybe you could parley some of those into a hybrid approach - work in food-service or as an Uber driver or something else that is lower-paying during your downturns, and do short-term contract work during your upswings.

Plus, if you feel like a failure - and it kinda reads like you do now - having some small successes in another field could help you turn that feeling around.

Have you tried work that comes to you? Like clearing a queue of tickets in technical support or even accepting calls?

You basically have to show up to work and you are micromanaged by the queuing software. Sounds horrible, but it leads to consistent performance and when your shift is over your mind is clear from work. You are not stressed about procrastination - you just have to respond to stimuli.

You don't have to be very social, the communication is basically a ritual/protocol. If you can clear the first hurdle it might turn out that the formed habits will help you for life.

There are more technical support jobs out there, you just need to make sure they are not organized around projects or a particular big client, but a queue. You are in Eastern Europe so there might be some opportunities around you.

You can give it a try and see how it feels for you.

Please add an email address to your profile so that people can reach you if they have potential solutions to your problems.

Some random advice from the internet, try to find out what works for you. As much as you're aware of your problem and looking for a solution, all should be good.

It might be a good idea to start writing a list of things which can help you overcome focusing issue, and things which exacerbate.

Random list of what to try - listening to music, specific playlist - working from co-working/cafe, separating workspace - amount of meetings - stress factors, how it affects the focus level - overall distractions (news, social feeds) - reading habits

and so on. In theory, it should be possible to find & maintain routine which works for you and things which can put you back on track once you notice your focus is drifting away.

There also could be unreasonable expectations from yourself, not enough rest and bunch of other things.

Good luck

check out this paper I found here recently https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16846100/

for self 'therapy' I highly highly recommend the book Focusing by Eugene Gendlin, it is the unlock key for all other self-help. Jump to ch3 and read a dialogue example, it's figuring out the inside forces, underneath the words and 'theories'.

You can do it by yourself (I use a stuffed animal) and there's a pdf on library genesis.

(Honestly better than pay-a-person therapy for me, where i just wasted time trying to out-smart my therapist with insightful theories, intellectualization is a defense mechanism, as is self-pity i realized of late)

A huge amount of 'distraction' is just emotional flinching in my experience.

the order i would do things

--Get the magnesium and the all the b vitamins (get the methyl b12 and methyl folate b9 if u can, they are the superior forms and cheaper than genetic testing),

--get on animal meat and fat keto or the carnivore diet, with fasting when the food is too boring. The high animal fat/ meat version is a must try for anyone with any hint of mental issues. Plus just eating one thing (meat) is easy, no planning, no distractions. If vegans don't like that, feel free to stay sick i say, it's your life...

--read the Gendlin book and do the process every week, instead of 'meditating on your breath' and other stuff that takes ten years to get anywhere. Focusing will bring up lots of dark emotions, good thing no one can see you sobbing so it does not matter

--Quit all caffeine, all my anxiety disappeared after a month.

These are all the interventions that legit helped me, take it or leave it

good luck

My reply to the user andrewmcarter who deleted their comment:

I thought I am an extremely lazy person who hates to work for 25 years. That it's ADHD was suggested to me a year ago and it was confirmed on EEG scans, by psychological evaluation and by taking medication that actually worked - however it also made me paranoid (extremely, pushing me out of normal reality) and I have other (physical) medical condition that made it unsustainable.

Yes, my code is in production and people (users as well as other devs) love it. Future maintainers always praise it for its readability and simple extensibility. I co-founded a startup (niche CRM/ERP kind of app) and got it working within a month and we got customers actually using the app and investors thanks to that. However the investors pushed me out when they found out I am not working for extended periods of time. I got some small amount of money but was forced to leave my stake.

Indeed, I am not comfortable with failing anymore. Now it's so bad I just can't have interviews anymore, I start shaking and can't think at all - a decade ago I used to have very high self esteem and didn't have this kind of problems, it's indeed a developed condition.

I'm not paying for my medical services. I pay mandatory health insurance which is priced by the state based on a minimum and/or a percentage of my income.

Academia/school is torture because the fuckers were screaming at me all the time for not completing homework, because I always shut down when I had to do something on the blackboard in front of the classroom, etc. I guess university might be different but I'd have to complete the 3 remaining years of high school to get there. Anyways from what my Gf experienced at the university it's terrible there too so I'm not really motivated to go this way, doesn't seem like a solution.

It's not like I am playing video games instead of doing the stuff I need to do. I really truly want to do it. I am sitting in front of it, I don't browse internet or whatever. I have the work in front of me, but my brain is shut down, unable to have a single thought. I am sitting like this for hours, wishing with all of my willpower to just do the thing, but can't have an intelligent thought.

Quite honestly, programming doesn't sound like a good fit. Have you tried doing something physical? Like post office delivery or something.

My suggestions will be unpopular and controversial, but I have been in your shoes, and medication has saved my life. Make it your goal.

If you can't get medicated, I would suggest copious amount of caffeine and nicotine, especially the latter. Perhaps don't get into cigarettes, patches are great if you understand that they take hours to reach peak nicotine concentration. Vaping is still 10x better than an unmedicated, unassisted life. Get some exercise in for that 15% boost in executive function, and it's great for your health anyway. Good luck starting an exercise routine unmedicated though.

If one day society decides I cannot take the meds that keep me ticking along, that is my plan. I'd rather die 10 years earlier because of nicotine side-effects than go back into the hole of self loathing and mental impotence I just managed to crawl out of.

Stay away from any dopamine binge. You are probably already binging on something. Drugs, porn, mindless YouTubing, food, sugar, sex, the Internet, video games are your best pleasure and your worst enemy. You crave that rush, you will seek it anywhere, it will make your ADHD worse and worse.

It's not going to be easy, but don't give much weight to "normal" people trying to convince you you're just one small trick away from a happy life. They don't know what the hell they're talking about. You have a mental imbalance, and unless you can afford not to work like a hamster 40h a week to get a salary, you need help to fix the imbalance.

And in any case if you are like me you will never be a cubicle monkey. Freelance. Work you own hours. Work for yourself if you can. It is possible to get to a point that your 0.2x productivity, if you're good, still keeps a roof over your head.

Hit me up, email in my profile, if you wanna vent. I have lived in your shoes for a very long time.

I had a relatively minor case that sounds very similar to this for a couple years. This is what worked for me, in case it works for you:

1) Reframe sunk-cost thinking on "not working" vs "working" by forgiving yourself on bad days. I would get into a state where I wasn't as productive as I could have been, and it made me feel bad when trying to be productive again. I would avoid engaging because of the emotionally painful feeling. Stimulants would allow me to push through, but at the cost of anxiety when coming down and other health issues. A lot of the framing and advice I got from friends and professionals ignored this highly emotional angle that I was not socialized to recognize and focused on either drugs or productivity tools to paper over it. However, recognizing that this was an emotional trap happening, and that the anticipated emotional pain was a self fulfilling prophecy, allowed me to forgive myself some days and focus on making small incremental progress. It is okay, normal, and probably unavoidable to have 0.5x or 0.1x days. The trick for me has been to not let them snowball by framing incremental progress as a win. Avoiding black and white thinking about productivity.

2) When that fails, as it will occasionally, try to harness the urge to disengage with emotionally risky tasks to do tasks you are less anxious about. Have a queue of productive but less stressful or exhausting tasks to do. Maybe you can get up from the computer and procrastinate by doing the dishes or cleaning. Maybe you can procrastinate cleaning by scheduling a doctor's appointment, doing taxes, or working out. Maybe you can procrastinate working out by writing unit tests and documentation. Eventually procrastinating the unit tests and documentation by writing features and closing the original tickets. This won't work for many jobs that do not provide autonomy, but has worked wonders for me. Part of what I think is happening here is that there can be a decoupiling between feeling rewarded and completing tasks, if tasks take too long to complete or are only followed by more of the same. Something akin to a low grade burnout can be stopped before it gets too serious by doing small immediately rewarding tasks when the urge to procrastinate is high.

3) Think of your productivity as part of a whole healthy emotional and physical life. Modern life makes it easy to ask absurd things of our animal body - we feed ourselves nothing but sugar, meds, coffee and nicotine designed to induce a flight or fight response for hours, then wonder why we are panicking at the thought of not finishing some minor task or the possibility of some bad behavior repeating. Shipping excellent code is a long voyage, one of many voyages in your life, and your mind is the irreplaceable vehicle that has to be kept in working order to complete all of them. Regular meals, sleep, and a little exercise, are not distractions from productivity but hard requirements for sustained productivity.

ADHD software engineer from Prague here.

Here are some things I do to be reliably productive. To be clear, I don't do everything written below everyday (except limiting phonetime). They are tools to stop the downward spiral. Pick what works for you.

- Get StayFree app to limit your fun unproductive screentime. Getting bored is good for you. - Generally limit things that gives you easy dopamine. It messes with your reward system. - Clean up your home. - Get a cheap A4 notebook. Write down stuff you need to do into bubbles all around the page to get them out of your head. Break down complex tasks into simple short defined actions. Connect the bubbles according to the order you want to complete them. Don't overcommit. It should be easy to follow. - Sport helps - Sleep and eat well - Monday is the day when I'm the most productive. It's crucial to get rested during the weekend. - Drink enough water - Frontend development is less stressful than backend - Try Headspace app

My medication: Elontril, Concerta

Don't give up, keep fighting

will it be easier for you if transition to a QA role ?

Your ADHD might be trauma related. And that trauma is probably stored in the body. I suggest checking out this video on how to release that trauma:

https://youtu.be/kGYA8RCHxiI

I have a similar pattern of working hard and then hitting a wall. These exercises really help when I'm at the wall, mentally.

You might be a candidate for Disability.

Assuming US your best shot might be collecting SSI and supplementing with periodic contract work. Mind your billable hours though so you don't disqualify yourself. Work on open-source stuff the rest of your time to stay in the game.

If that is not tenable, consider changing careers to something more dopamine-driven-- firefighter, paramedic, etc. Social skills are beneficial but not required. Educational background is negotiable.

One option is get a job at a company where the expectations and pace of development are so low that it simply works with your current paradigm. Think big corporation with legacy software that needs to be maintained, and the work just is t that hard. Boring? Yes. Stable? Yes. The pay can be relatively good & interaction is often at a minimum. It also doesn’t have to be a long term solution. You can take a less than exciting job while you work on yourself & well being long term (e.g. get some exercise, do some therapy, build up some savings, etc.)

I think you should read the book “faster than normal”. Gives some Great ways to use your ADHD for you. Find out ways to release your gates. For me it was the gym. I can’t get good work I’m unless I’m in the gym or doing some exercise. It’s a natural release anyways and I’m a more physical person so it did a lot for me mentally.

I'm in a pretty similar position though I'm nobody's idea of "the best programmer they've ever seen". I currently have a low-grade contract with some old friends. They generally accept that I'm pretty erratic schedule wise. It pays enough to help with my expenses though I'm still mostly prematurely spending my retirement. Ultimately I think the only solution for me is to get the ADHD meds, which I understand there is a shortage of now, thanks to the war on drugs or whatever, in addition to the existing shortage of doctors in my area that could actually prescribe them. Hate the US sometimes.

people here will give you advice on how to deal with this issue with good intentions, even from personal anedoctaol experience, but sometime advice given with good intention might lead to inaffective outcome or even end up making things worse, for you.

if you feel this issue is harming you even after seeing professional than you might have to switch who you are seeing.

Are you sure, this is really ADHD and not something else, hardened by ineffective measures?

I mean, I spent half of life deal with non-competent medics, to finally understand, what I really have and how to deal with it (yes, my condition serious).

And I must admit, I still have very similar to your issues, but at least, now I can make plans for future.

We could talk more later. Now try to minimize pharmaceutics, ideally to zero, control your condition only by natural products and psychological training (also, may help yoga or eastern things, like kung fu or tai-chi), and find part time work, to pay your expenses.