I am sort of also addicted to YouTube, I don't watch as much as this person every day but on days that I'm off I easily do. Almost all educational content (science, programming, new tech), tech news or essays of various kinds.
I’ve been warily watching this grow in my own life. At first it was just some podcasts in the background while working. Then it became all kinds of videos. Then it became while taking breaks, preparing food, eating food, using the bathroom, etc. It consumed all my quiet time. I managed to break the habit as a side effect of upending my whole life and digital nomading around for a year and a half (side note, that was a very positive experience, and actually helped, rather than hurt my career.) Now I feel it coming back, and worse thanks to YouTube shorts.
I’m going to uninstall the app after writing this.
Interesting fix! My addiction tends to get worse when I'm on the road, because I'm usually alone and tired at the end of the day. At home I have more options.
I agree with you on all fronts. This issue isn't just with YouTube the numbing down of the mind via digital stimulation has taken a toll on a lot of people. I myself am struggling with the same. I can relate to how easy it is to slip back to the old ritual of consuming endless hours of video content which doesn't even make you feel good.
I thing the key is to consume in moderation. Just like we take care of our body by exercising and limiting junk food, we need to meditate and be aware of our digital media consumption. Someone people don't have this problem but like you and me there are people who are struggling with this problem.
I have to be honest, whenever I get busy and do not watch any video for a couple of days, and then I get back to youtube, I am somewhat disappointed by the content. And recently the algorithm has been really insistent on having me watch certain videos. I just open the page and see a couple of videos I did not want to watch the last time around.
I also think the algorithm has become worse. It recommends that I watch a lot of stuff that I don't want to see and buries channels that I subscribe to and watch every video of.
Same experience. First it was just showing recommendations first and burying subscriptions. But those recommendations seemed decent. Now it is just a bunch of stuff I have no interest in. And recently I got a new device that I did not want to sign into youtube with, and it tried to sell me Jordan Peterson after just a couple dozen videos. F'ed up.
It seems like all ad (and tracking) supported companies know how to do is optimize for engagement, which effectively means becoming addictive. This business model is too easy and too profitable to ever go away, so all we can do is learn to recognize it, and learn how to it responsibly. Like other addictions, sometimes this means restricting, and sometimes this means wholly abstaining.
On the topic of Youtube addiction specifically, "letsblock.it" has some Youtube-specific filters which can be placed in uBlock Origin and help cut down on Youtube's addictiveness:
Even something as simple as the regulation requiring the site to make it EASY to turn those things off (But give the choice to consumers via big, easy to see toggles in the right places). Rather than having them put in browser extensions.
If there were only a way to slow down the internet connection to 1mbps or so, a lot of that instant-gratification habit-forming engagement psychology wouldn't be very effective anymore.
Even before YouTube, people could have spent 9 hours a day watching rented VHS and DVDs. It just took too much effort to form a habit based on instant gratification with that. So not many people did. And people were much more selective of what they consumed, too, which is an added benefit for mental health.
Your second paragraph is a rose-colored view of history. People simply watched television. No need to rent when you had hundreds of cable channels to endlessly scroll through. It wasn’t as curated as streaming but then it also helped to avoid the decision fatigue of streaming (and makes me wonder if Netflix and co. could reintroduce “channels” to funnel user selection and reduce analysis paralysis.)
I used to be addicted to youtube, and the most effective method I found to limiting my consumption was using an extension called Unhook. It removes all recommendations and the shorts and trending tabs, so the only videos I can watch are those from channels I'm subscribed to, or videos that I search for.
i can’t believe how effective this has been for me. I’ve noticed that instead of being continually “interested” in youtube and going down the rabbit hole constantly, i actually get bored of youtube pretty quickly once i have watched all the content my subscriptions have put out. i still spend way too much time on my phone, but i guess i need to have the phone equivalent
Some time ago, a nice fellow HN user @boriselec wrote a browser plugin for, in the end, my personal use (as barely anyone uses it), that redirects all video links to their /embed variant.
/embed links are meant to be embedded in other pages and do not show any UI clutter. As it happens, they also work perfectly well if (re-)directly opened!
Yeah.. but luckily the add-on is simple enough that a source-code inspection is feasible (which I did). There's nothing weird going on in the add-on, but please do your own due diligence :)
i strongly recommend "Remove Youtube Suggestions" firefox addon for the ultimate youtube hider. It's even gotten so full featured you can show comments but hide names. Weird but cool.
Unhook is great even if you’re not addicted! I used it to clean all the fluff to a minimal YouTube and suddenly it felt all like before Google had bought it! :) But now I think I understand why the extension is named Unhook?
It's one of the browser add-ons I recommend the most. Together with an add-blocker it makes youtube into a very useful tool, instead of being a time sink. Additionally it makes it much harder to fall into an unhealthy echo chamber.
I really wish there were options like this for mobile (iPhone specifically). Most of my YouTube browsing is done on mobile or chromecasted.
I go through phases of deleting the app, which works really well, but then I’m not able to chromecast for the odd time I want to watch the occasional video with my partner.
I’d also still like to be aware of when videos from certain creators come out, so deleting the app just cuts that off entirely.
I would absolutely love to have an option for a YouTube app that only has a sub box and no recommendations.
I’ve been using Invidious/yewtu.be instead of YouTube so I’m not falling into a recommendation hole. I manually search for the creator I want to watch and decide if their video is worth watching.
My "hack" is that I only go through my subs on the iOS YT app and add the videos that look interesting to "Watch later" from the phone.
Then when I have some time to kill, I go through the "Watch later" list and use "SendToKodi" to share the video to Kodi and watch it on my OLED TV comfortably on my couch. It also skips ads, sponsors, "HiT LikE ANd SUBsCRiBE" begging, etc.
I solved this problem on mobile with two approaches:
1. Use a content blocker (e.g. 1Blocker on iOS) to block CSS elements
2. Use an Invidious instance which has disabled the recommendations
I also make sure my new tab screen doesn't have sites like YouTube, Twitch, etc. I don't use any social media sites so they won't appear there, but if you do you should also keep them off of your new tab screen.
I've found it's too easy to re-enable the home page, so I also deleted and disabled watch history. This makes the recommendation system much less effective.
I used to be addicted to youtube too, and when looking for a browser extension I found that just adding /etc/hosts entry (on a mac ) works well enough for me that I don't need an actual plugin. 127.0.0.1 youtube.com www.youtube.com
It's fast, and when I need to use youtube I just uncomment out the line in vim.
I've found that I only watch less Youtube over the years as their suggestions got worse for me. Now I feel like I only ever see a handful of the same suggested videos and they are all from years ago.
Watching Gophercon videos this morning, majority of my suggestions were Jordan B Peterson, Andrew Huberman and JRE. How the hell does it make that jump. I only watch software related videos at this point.
> majority of my suggestions were Jordan B Peterson
I'm interested in psychology and philosophy, so I'll watch videos on those subjects every so often. Naturally, the Algorithm™ becomes obsessed with recommending me Peterson videos soon after. I'm 98% sure the "Do not recommend" and "Not interested" buttons are just there for show, because I keep seeing those suggestions whenever I wander off into psychology and philosophy videos.
Yeah. YouTube's algorithm does a really great job of stopping me from watching too much YouTube. For me it's a lot of videos I've either already seen, am not interested but continually get recommended, or are just short, low quality videos.
I would like to be able to watch more YouTube videos, but their recommendations are so bad at this point that I have to find other things to do.
This is a very dramatic framing. A much more resonable explanation is that YouTube was being used as an escape. 10K Subs is an accomplishment, a real community. The less talked about half of parasocial relationships is the one that goes the other way, where people feel validation from the likes and views they get. Generally, taking a break from an escape means you face the real issues you have been avoiding and ignoring using YouTube. At the same time, I think it's great the author is reflecting and take actionable steps to working on themselves. Stepping away or slowing down is a tough decision once you reach the size this author has.
I have higher weekly hours, in the Youtube app on your phone, you can see weekly view stats. On wednesday my stats say 15 hours. I have ADHD and I leave YouTube running in the background while I work and when I sleep. I know for a fact that 5+ hour on wednesday was "10 Hours of Hotel AC White Noise (High power setting)". 80% of the time it's on in the background, either figuratively or literally white noise.
Taking a break is always beneficial, but I think this might be a situation where an escape becomes unhealthy and makes the situation worse but isn't the underlying cause. I strongly dislike the trend of using the word addiction to describe a bad or unhealthy habit. Unless watching YouTube held you back from performing other life function or you feel physical or mental withdrawal symptoms, I'd hestitate from using that word. Not just a craving, but also some sort of anxiety from being away or cancelling plans with friends or being late to work. People are fulltime Youtubers, being a creator can be everything from a hobby to a profession.
It’s not so much an escape as a habit, for me. I started young. When I was 13 or so, I was watching voyager while hacking on game engines. Then I never really stopped.
I think I can only do shows that I have watched a few times already. I can do that for The Office, but I have yet to see bersek, thanks for the link. I also enjoy GothamChess, and more generally video game speedrunning, playthroughs and analysis. When I am in the mood for music, I look live festival sets. I heavily favor EDM personally, Keygen Chruch has been pretty good, a "goth synthwave/metal/Baroque/Romantic, 8bit-tinged, pipe-organ-laden band". I have a hard time keeping up with these subgenres.
Here's my in flux playlist of what I call AmbianceLONG, 1hr+ videos that I shuffle through. I didn't know NasaTV is live on YouTube.
Sorry, but I think a post like the above should make someone like you take a time to reflect, instead of immediately prepare a defense. Regardless of what is driving your desire to watch so much YouTube, which in the end is what defines the degree of the pathology, it’s still an inordinate amount. YouTube is not background noise. Your brain is paying a bit of attention to it, getting dopamine from it, and becoming progressively less able to reach a state of peace without stimulation. Will you be running YouTube in the background when you’re sharing a bed with a spouse? Will you be wearing headphones with constant babbling going on, disturbing your sleep patterns? These are real issues my friend.
My reflection is that it doesn't interefere with my work at all, and my significant other and I often fall asleep listening to podcasts or video essays. I do wear headphones and I am far for the only one that sleeps with headphones in. Here's a link to a product that is a headband that has speakers built in with a 4.5 rating and 13,000+ reviews. [1] This seems silly and I would not recommend it, and suggest regular headphones instead, IEM preferably.
I am not sure if you grasp the difference in active and passive watching. I would suggest you do more research into how neurotransmitters function, that is not how dopamine works. Additionally I mentioned I have ADHD, "People with ADHD have at least one defective gene, the DRD2 gene that makes it difficult for neurons to respond to dopamine" [2] If anything dopamine is not doing what it needs to in my brain. I appreciate your concern, but it's misplaced. In my previous post I linked to a 10 hour video of the noise of an AC running in a motel room.
For students with ADHD in school, as part of a 504 plan they have the option to listen to music in class because it has been shown effective in improving focus.
This is some crazy shit. Only you can decide if a behavior is addictive. People can suggest it but it's only an opinion. They dont live your experience. Having said that, your watch patterns are shocking to me.
Disordered behavior and addiction is dependent on the specific action having a meaningfully detrimental impact on one's life. Addiction is not a subjective thing, this is why I don't like when people use that word the way the author did. It's a clinically defined thing.
I appreciate that it lets me live my life with less struggles. I am far from an outlier in any way. I would recommend looking up average watch time statistic across various social media platforms as well as Netflix, Amazon, etc. As well as viwer stats of seasons sports like College Football, Formula 1, FIFA.
"According to Insider Intelligence projections, while overall time spent with media per day will decline slightly from 13 hours, 13 minutes in 2021 to 13 hours, 7 minutes in 2022, time spent with digital media—video, smartphones, CTV, subscription OTT, and digital audio—will maintain steady gains and continue claiming even more time going forward."
Just wanted to say, I appreciate your measured responses throughout the thread. It’s sometimes a bit hard to be normal but with everyone calling you abnormal (or in this case, crazy) and it’s always nice to see someone who truly doesn’t care.
Radio is a great analogy for this. Compared to entire families coming come and sitting down in front of the national TV, I’d take social media any day.
It’s possible for an entire society can be misled into thinking something is normal or healthy when it’s not. Doctors in the 1940s and 1950s smoked and were in advertisements for Camel cigarettes. It was normal and ubiquitous. Was it healthy?
There are other examples of this. Is too much video watching another instance? That’s for you to decide. At least consider it a possibility and then move on.
>I have ADHD and I leave YouTube running in the background while I work and when I sleep. I know for a fact that 5+ hour on wednesday was "10 Hours of Hotel AC White Noise (High power setting)". 80% of the time it's on in the background, either figuratively or literally white noise.
Funny you mention that, one of my favorite YouTube channels is, Nemo's Dreamscapes and right now I'm listening to "LIVE Oldies playing in another room, it's a great night (Open window, crickets ambience)" [1] It's a non stop livestream similar to the LoFi Girl music channel.
I'll usually leave one of those 8- or 10-hour "soft waves on an island beach" clips playing in the BG. Nice alternative if the view out the window is snow, lol.
Otherwise (for me) YT is a resource for guides on taking apart old laptops and other how-tos, along with the occasional movie on the kitchen tablet, while prepping a meal or washing up.
I've seen this happen to A LOT of people, particularly with TikTok. What's worse is the algorithms are effectively there to (a) keep you watching and (b) manipulate you (in some cases - i.e. increase addictive tenancies, change mood (see facebook studies on this), etc)
That said, I have seen this cycle both spiral (as in this case) and be broken before. I've also helped a cousin who had this issue.
IMO and this is going to sound harsh, but bare with me -- the problem isn't YouTube, TikTok, etc the issue is you. If you have this "addiction" it's because you're enabled. For instance, I cannot just decide to watch 8 hrs of youtube videos a day, I have to wake up & let the dog out, feed the family, go to work, take the kids to sports classes, spend time with my wife, etc. At the end of the day, I have maybe an hour I could listen to something as I'm doing some maintenance on the house before bed. I'm happy, busy and have purpose. If you have responsibilities you'll be happier -- period. Yes, sometimes it'll suck, it is work after all (I had to clean up my dogs diarrhea the other day -- blah); but the process is rewarding. You can see what you've accomplished, people will care about you and you'll be happier.
Few thoughts on how this can be broken (and how I've seen it done)
1. Uninstall all your social media apps
2. Get an extension on your browser to block social media
3. In an extreme case, change your password to non-sense you don't know and to an email you create on the fly and don't know.
4. Get a pet
5. Make a list of objectives (small to large); make a plan to execute. You can fail, over and over again, but if you work towards them you'll eventually get there.
6. Go outside for a 30-60 min walk every day and force yourself to leave your phone. Cold or hot, doesn't matter. Remember, your ancestors lived outside 24/7, even 100 years ago, there was no AC.
7. Join communities -- could just be people at the gym, a church / w.e., archery club, it doesn't matter, just get social connections
8. Clean your house and room at least once a week and make your bed every day. Discipline is key and once you have a clean house for a while, you'll want to keep it clean.
9. Go to the gym every day if you can. Pick the closest one and just go every day for an hour. Use the machines as they're less likely to hurt you and you don't need any training. Build up to free weights (or if you know how to use them, go for it).
I never comment for the karma, nor do I really look at the karma. You can look at my history lol I think it’ll highlight my sentiment about karma.
I’m also not saying this stuff is explicitly bad. I’m simply pointing out I know multiple people with this issue described (hrs and hrs on social media), and provided a path how I’ve seen people successfully overcome it.
Regarding Tiktok, it definitely is interesting in a few ways, but it’s not an overly difficult algorithm. It’s data collection and format. I think it’s mostly the UX/UI focus that makes it different from any of the other apps. Imo it’s less information dense to end users and more addiction focused. My favorite tid-bit is that they know when you’re about to drop off usage so they’ll send you highly ranked content in a notification. Basically, this results in doom scrolling right before sleep.
"Social media" is a neologism in the context of internet forums. Most of the standard features aren't present. There are no followers, no private messages, no notifications, no phone app. Compared to Reddit or IRC, there are no individual forums/chatrooms that powerful users moderate. If HN is social media, then so is letter writing.
This is going to sound sad but I'm aiming to hopefully have a YouTube addiction. I had a severe reddit addiction for many years which wasted the best years of my life, that I recently replaced with a TikTok addiction (reddit banned me anyway). Now I'm trying to step up and wean myself onto longer form video content instead. That's how deep I've gotten myself into this... self-induced ADHD spiral. I can barely even play videogames for more than 20 minutes at a time anymore.
It's not sad. You have identified a problem in your life! That's awesome. No one has a life with no problems, so you're like the rest of us humans. Now you can decide how you are going to change your behavior. You might consider talking to a friend or maybe a counselor to help you identify changes and unhelpful thinking patterns.
Is it just me or is Google quietly in serious distress?
Ads have been getting a LOT worse very quickly. Almost every ad I saw in a day when my UBlock wasn’t working was advertising an actual fraud. Whether crypto or recession get rich quick or “aluminum is giving you cancer.”
Advertising frequency is cranked way up. On mobile 5 second unskippables are 6-7 now. I’ll do a search and my ENTIRE screen is advertising until I scroll down and find results.
Same nonsense on Facebook. It’s all payday loans, crypto scams, and magic mushrooms.
People say it’s based on your history, but I don’t buy that as none of what it shows me is even slightly relevant. It just seems like they don’t have enough relevant ads to show, so they throw shit at the wall.
Interesting. It’s the same on my end. I’m not interested in any of the stuff I see and I have no idea why an algorithm would think so. Crypto is relentless. Payday loans are around, but not as prevalent. I get a lot of ads for weird novelty toys too. I’m not sure I’ve ever clicked one, let alone looked them up.
I’ve wondered if it’s because I’m into 3d printing and many other people who are into are interested in action figures/minis/what have you. Possible connection?
In any case ads do seem to be getting less relevant and skeezy themes are developing.
The worst one I’ve been seeing a lot of is “single Ukrainian women”. One went as far as showing a quick and easy process of selection and “purchase”. I have no idea how that would be targeted at me, but it see a lot of them.
Maybe there's a "HN User" stamp on your ad profile?
Jokes aside, if you do your data request from FB you should see your advertising selectors come back. Before I deleted my account, FB thought I was a 17 year old girl interested in boy bands and makeup.
For me it was especially shocking because I've experienced no transition, straight from 0 to 100 instead.
I've always exclusively interacted with Youtube from my PC, with uBlock enabled. I don't see ads and because I haven't for such a long time, I've normalized that state.
Until I got a new TV, with a fancy TV OS. My mother-in-law was visiting and I was trying to play some clips of her favorite music via the TV app. I was absolutely shocked. Every 2 minutes or so, 2 brief ads in succession.
It makes viewing anything with joy impossible. You can't get into the moment as its constantly stopped in its tracks. Absolute hellish ad regime.
We used to let the kids watch YouTube videos. But now it’s “daaaaad Ad…” every two minutes. YouTube is now banned on the TV.
And while we’re on this topic: Google’s rockstar elite engineers and designers removed the ability to force a resolution for YouTube + Chromecast. But it also wrongly auto detects my gigabit internet as being too weak so it’s literally impossible to get anything above 480p on my basement TV. (Twitch and others stream in HD without issue)
Yes, I have shaken my YouTube addiction this way. It naturally makes YouTube less appealing. It also lengthens the habit-forming action->random outcome cycle by 20 or more seconds with pre-roll ads. Enabling ads on YouTube is the opposite of autoplay in terms of addiction.
Ads on YouTube haven't been inconvenient enough to deter me yet. Minor annoyance, but if the ads are longer than 15 seconds I can skip.
Twitch on the other hand? If I'm watching on mobile I'll regularly get 90 seconds or more of unskipable ads every 10 minutes. Most of the time this makes me close the app and overall has torpedoed my watch time.
This is no joke. I used to watch lots of youtube on background when I had a desktop with multiple screens. I’d put mostly the news.
Now I’m on the road and I have a laptop and an ipad. I’ve got no extra screen and the extra tab will be expensive on my battery. I tried the iPad YouTube app but I’d get an ad for every 4-5 minutes.
After a couple weeks i stopped watching YouTube altogether. I was considering getting a premium subscription but found out later that I don’t miss it that much.
I think the $5/month will be used to stream bitcoin to podcasts over lightening.
I have this problem with recommendation engines generally. Spotify, Netflix, Steam, etc. They are very bad at making novel, interesting recommendations.
They will also blindly recommend popular things, which is irritating. Steam is an exception here - it has a slider bar that allows exclusion of popular content in favor of niche / indie stuff.
oh you watched one video about MMA? Here's 10 million things about MMA. Oh you watched a video about the war in ukraine? Here's another 10 million videos about the war in ukraine.
When I first studied recommendation algorithms I remember the classic "people who buy hamburgers and hamburger buns also buy ketchup and mustard" sort of things. On youtube its more like people who watch a video about anything are doomed to be recommended further videos about that thing forever, and adjacent 'also watched' related topics aren't really a thing.
YouTube videos will soon be generated by an AI which will know exactly what your interests are and it will keep you hooked in such a way that you will live in an alternate reality made up of a images bein projected to your eyes by a video monitor and will completely lose yourself. And one day someone will offer you a choice between a blue and red pill. Choose the red one and a new rabbit hole will start. Back to square one.
I'm the type to become addicted and I had a big problem with spending vastly too much time on YT. A few months ago I cleared my search and watch history and subscriptions to start fresh. Now I only allow myself to watch videos about math, science, or playing instruments I'm interested in learning to play. If I ever see a politically leaning recommendation I tell YT to never show it to me again. If I slip up and watch something off my diet I immediately clean it from my search and watch history. It's improved my life a lot removing the toxic content and replacing it with slowly understanding pieces of modern physics from listening to Leonard Susskind.
I likely have some degree of YouTube addiction as well. While I hope your tactic is working well for you, I believe this way of thinking can be a deceiving. Almost all the YouTube content I consume is related to science, engineering, math or chess (I’ve watched many of Susskinds’s lectures too). I used to rationalize my excessive use by telling myself that the content I watched was useful. In reality, my time would be FAR better reading a book, doing a project, socializing, doing chores, or really anything other than just being a YouTube zombie.
I think that's a great way of describing it. Watching "educational" content feels better or more productive than watching a Let's Play, but it's all basically empty entertainment -- the medium and the algorithm sort've necessitate it. Which is definitely not to say there's not awesome resources on youtube for actually learning things, but, for the most part, I'm not watching things that actually take mental effort. I'm more often just letting trash wash over me while also convincing myself that it's OK because "I'm learning" (even though whatever trivial factoid being discussed is immediately ejected from my brain when the next video starts)
I've realized that the internet has a numbing effect on me. It all washes over me until I feel absolutely nothing and I'm just mindlessly consuming. My ISP was recently down for a day, and it actually made life (at least temporarily) more interesting. Rather than just sitting in front of a screen and having content pumped into my veins, my SO and I had to leave the house to seek out things to do.
Then the internet came back and now we're both back on the drip.
I'm not(err no longer) fooling myself that I'm learning like I would be by methodically working through a textbook, but it's fun, an improvement to what I was doing before, the most I can consistently muster when I'm zapped after work, not harmful like the toxically engaging political/social content, and inspires me with interesting topics to read further about later. I've accumulated a pile of books on subjects I've listened to talks about and hope to transition to those someday soon when I can manage to get out of the funk I've been in and have more mental energy. I'm already working on the lighter books, but haven't had made it to textbooks yet.
Political videos on YouTube has the widest spectrum when it comes to quality.
You can get highly informative, mind-changing videos with 10k-30k views. And on the other end, hot-take, "debate me bro!" Twitch personalities with 1M-3M views.
That's the nature of it, don't see this on any other category really.
Nope. Stop using the medical word addiction in contexts where it's highly inappropriate. Youtube isn't even a single thing. It's just a video hosting service. The types of videos on it are extremely wildly varying.
Video addiction is not a thing. See how stupid it sounds when you say it like it is?
Nope. Stop using the medical word addiction in contexts where it's highly inappropriate. The Internet isn't even a single thing. It's just a collection of content. The types of content on it are extremely wildly varying.
Internet addiction is not a thing. See how stupid it sounds when you say it like it is?
Outside of lampooning how absurd your comment sounds, I don't think it's your place to call if something is a valid addiction or not, and addictions don't have to be strictly medically defined to be considered as such. Just because there isn't some ICD-10 definition for "YouTube addiction" doesn't mean it can't exist, because addiction fundamentally just means a dependence or habitual occupation with something.
And so, is Youtube addiction as debilitating as something like alcoholism? I think most people would say absolutely not, but presumably it's distressing enough to the writer of the post that they have formed a habit around watching (a lot of) it, perceive it as a negative, and want to change it. I would colloquially consider this an addiction.
Absolutely. There is also no such thing as internet addiction. When you compare drug based addictions to things people enjoy the difference is clear. The drugs create increased incentive salience even without enjoyment. This is very different from say, watching a video where you actually have to enjoy it intrinsically many times before it alters incentive salience.
There's a reason the DSM5 and ICD-10 don't have any of the "internet addiction" "video game addiction" "porn addiction" or other cult concepts that scammers use to defraud people of their money. They aren't actually addiction.
Please define addiction for me. My point was not to say that all addictions are equal (they are not), and they act differently, but I think it's too simplistic to flippantly state that Internet addiction is not a thing.
Addiction is when the motivation for a stimuli is divorced from reward from the stimuli and the animal keeps exposing itself to the stimuli regardless. But socially in humans this is acceptable until the addiction begins to have detrimental effects on the person being able to care for themselves. In almost all cases the simuli capable of doing this are drugs that bypass actual perception and internally/chemically tweak the balance for motivation.
There's not even a thing called "Gambling Addiction". Only, "Gambling disorder" and it's the only behavioral "addiction" recognized by the DSM-5.
> Stop using the medical word addiction in contexts where it's highly inappropriate. Youtube isn't even a single thing
You're playing with semantics in a context where
1) everyone understands what the author is saying when talking about addiction, making it appropriate to convey what they mean
2) the word pre-dates DSM, the fact that DSM defines that in a medical sense doesn't change the definition from the dictionary, which fits very much with what the author is describing (1). That's very much you getting angry at sound engineers because they are not engineers per the sense of professional colleges, whereas that's how their profession is called.
3) Give time to all the troubles created by digital products to be studied, understood, and make their way into that guide. Psychology and mental afflictions are still a very evolving field of medicine. DSM is changing to reflect that, a notable change between IV and V was regrouping AS into ADS because the symptoms and the underlying cause are similar. The is the case for what everyone calls digital addiction. I suspect there will be some forms of that formally coming up.
4) the dependency mechanisms work in the same way, people suffering from it have the same withdrawal symptoms. There's some valid criticism for the DSM not to categorize it as addiction (2)(3).
> Video addiction is not a thing. See how stupid it sounds when you say it like it is?
5) the author's struggle to disconnect is real, the impact on their life is real, their pain is real. I am not sure what authorizes you to discard their pain, and to qualify this as stupid. Show a little empathy.
1: And that's the problem: people believing they know what addiction is and applying it to pretty much anything they or others like to do. It's like how people who are a little finicky would say, "Yeah, that's my ADHD." but it's not. The other groups advocating for useless loose definitions of "addiction" are typically scam groups that run paid seminars for things like "porn addiction". About as legit as anti-homosexual camps.
2: This is a legit argument. In the past people may have used the word addiction to cover many things. But it is no longer the year 1900.
3: I guess we better wait till your prediction additions to the DSM6 happen then. I think it more likely that gambling disorder will be removed than additional behavioral "addiction" disorders put in. I'm not sure what the folding of aspergers into autism spectrum disorders has to do with this?
4: Claiming that there are psysiological withdrawl symptoms from watching youtube is absurd. There are not. Show me the journal article supporting such an outlandish claim. Dependency also has a meaning in this context and merely missing something psychologically isn't it. Psychological dependence is not physiological dependence and neither are addiction. Just like how no one is addicted to benzodiazapines: they become physiologically dependent and experience widthdrawl but addiction requires more.
5: Personal anecdotes and emotional appeals are not valid arguments. I'm sorry the person is having psych troubles but "youtube" is not the cause.
Note that the DIS also categorizes gaming disorders under addictive behaviors, I encourage you to read the definition for "other disorders resulting from addictive behaviours", that the author's description matches.
I do appreciate you linking to articles but these articles are pretty terrible.
re #1: The WHO adding internet addiction reflects the amount of sway China's political processes have over WHO declarations more than anything else. Their internal political narrative is that this is a problem and the WHO is being used to support that. The repetition of the falsified blue light hypothesis re: sleep is also informative re: the quality of citation #1. As for "changes in glutamatergic and gabaergic" signalling... if that doesn't happen when it means you're brain dead. Glutamate or GABA expressing neurons literally make up ~3/4 of the neuronal cells in the brain. And both are regulated extraceullary by glial cells too. You cannot do anything without changing this. If they'd done fMRI or PET or something and could shown long term abberant changes in the glutamergic signalling in the shell of the nucelus accumbens then maybe it'd be saying something. But they don't and I'm getting ahead of myself.
Citation #2 shows that when people are doing something relaxing and then they stop doing it they aren't as relaxed. That's hardly surprising. The arguments seem to be pop-sci level characterizations of the brain where any change is seen as significant or having a valance, good or bad.
And then they go and cite obviously false out-dated concepts like the idea of dopaminergic cells being neccessary or sufficient for expressions of pleasure/reward,
> Dopamine plays a critical role in this circuitry, for the subjective pleasure associated with positive rewards, and the motivation or drive-related reinforcements associated with eating, drinking, or drugs [73,74]
>The initially pleasant, so-called rewarding effects of the drug are relayed by the release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens (NA) by the synaptic endings from the neurons of the ventral tegmental area (VTA) of the mesocorticolimbic circuitry [79,80].
It's actually glutamergic cells in the shell of the nucleus accumbens that are necessary and sufficient (but not all encompassing) for pleasure expression in mammals. Dopaminergic neurons can be blocked off with antagonists and the expression is still complete. The modern understanding is that mesolimbic dopaminergic populations encode for wanting and reward prediction. Glutamergic cells encode for reward/pleasure. I'd hope that someone writing a policy paper like this would cite up to date knowledge but it is excusable and a side point.
The real problem with #2 is that it doesn't actually talk about withdrawl symptoms in "digital addicts". It talks about widthdrawl symptoms and neurochemistry known in actual drug addicts and then just implicitly applies that all these statements must apply to the behavior "digital addiction" too. They don't show data about "digital addiction" withdrawl.
The third article is behind a cloudflare wall and I cannot access it.
Per why AS/ASD, the logic was that AS is in the mild section of the syndrom. You can probably draw a parallel to digital addiction, which everyone can agree is a much less severe form of addiction than substance addiction.
I think the YouTube suggestions got worse over time. In 1-2 weeks I will launch www.EduTube.app a platform to discover hand picked educational YouTube videos for those who are interested in it
Read Cal Newport’s Digital Minimalism. If you’re like me, you’ll substitute one digital addiction for another when trying to give up something; his book is helping me to break that cycle. Products like YouTube and most social media are finely tuned billion dollar machines aimed at capturing and holding your attention; our fleshy brains require more than a simple detox to break that grip.
That's been my experience. I stopped using Facebook and twitter, and hacker news doesn't keep me occupied for hours. So YouTube has taken over all that desire for content.
I don't think it even matters that most of the stuff I watch is educational, fascinating, and helping me learn new things. It affects my sleep and is still a bit of a passive time suck (like I could just be experimenting with wok cooking in the hours spent watching dozens of videos of others learning how to cook with a wok). So will check out these various extensions that remove recommendations, etc.
I occasionally watch "let's play" videos as a harm reduced alternative to actually playing games. A half hour spent watching someone play a game/sim totally relieves my FOMO. It also dissipates my urge to build a gaming PC. As a maker and musician, there's tons of inspiring and informative content on YT. I feel that I'm quite net positive on my use of YT to enrich my life.
> a harm reduced alternative to actually playing games.
There's probably some merit to this statement, but I sorta laugh at the difference in harm between 'watching' and 'playing'. Maybe the most candid thing for us to do is acknowledge that the "harm" we're talking about is a lack of gratification.
Yeah it's all down to the individual. I used to play all the time when younger but now I play in pretty short bursts and it works fine. I just avoid any games as a service type games.
The PS5 is really nice at this because you don't even have to exit the game. Just send it into rest mode and when you come back your game is still running ready to pick up where you left off.
For me it's a lot more satisfying than watching a YouTube video, but YMMV.
Sure. Impulse control plays a major part in both though, which is mostly why I find it funny. My ex-boyfriend had ADHD and swore off video games for the same reason, but he'd end up watching YouTube for hours if I left him unchecked. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but I feel like the difference between both addictions is smaller than it seems.
I'd argue passive consumption of content is worse then playing video games. I have no horses in this race, I admittedly spend way too much time streaming content. But at least with games you're doing something. Actively using your brain. There are studies showing games can improve dexterity and problem solving abilities. I doubt watching stuff does the same.
Depends who you're talking about. Those of us who've literally skipped work to play video games definitely find it easier to watch others play rather than dip our toes in ourselves.
One of these doesn't empty your wallet in the process. As a recent example, Stray costs $30 for 4 hours and no replay value, you bet your ass I watched that on youtube. It's even 2-3x worse in the console domain, especially for any AAA title.
I was heavily addicted to Diablo 2, playing nonstop for months on end. I watch let’s play videos and can skip through the grind while getting the endorphin hit. I’ve played the re-master for maybe 16-24 hours total in 12 months. For me it’s less about the cost of the game and more about the potential amount of time I may sink into it.
Actually a really big harm is the opportunity cost and substitution for real life.
Video games feel like achievement but they're not --> so they don't get the rewards in life that come with real achievement --> so when they engage with real life it kinda sucks (from neglected chores, to neglected career and relationships) --> So they go to video games for that gratification feeling of status/achievement.
ironically enough thinking your life revolves around opportunity costs, achievements and reward cycles is a much more severe form of gamification than having a good time and playing some video games.
People putting in those 80 hours to get that one bonus and the guy trying to get all the Steam achievements are spiritually the same person, whether the source of the dopamine rushes is virtual or analog doesn't make much of a difference, including in terms of resulting misery.
Games as a form of creativity, play and connection are fantastic precisely because they're simply leisure activities, something increasingly lost on most people.
> harm reduced alternative to actually playing games.
I don't quite see your logic here. How is it "harm-reduced"? Playing a game can be quite enriching and stimulating, whereas watching a video you're just sitting completely idle. To me, it sounds like you're just irrationally worried about playing a game for some reason.
Speedruns are bad at getting the normal feeling of a game across, and encourage watching multiple versions and attempts, and throwing a hundred speedruns together encourages a lot more watching than a trickle of half hour playthroughs as particularly interesting new games come out.
I think this suggestion does the opposite of help.
However... I have a little cousin in my family, and all she does it watch twitch. I've asked before "Don't want to play the games you're watching?" and she looks at me like I asked to solve fusion.
So, there is a hand shake meme of people who play because of twitch and people who just want to watch twitch... Good for twitch. Bad for humans.
Changing my phone to black and white mode helped, I was previously watching 3+hrs of yt a day as was OP.
Also making a mental note of how long you spend helps, even if you don't have the willpower to stop then and there. Over time
You keep making that same note and eventually build up the fortitude to modify your behaviour / fight your addiction. Good luck to you all.
You can also set it so that triple tapping on the sleep button brings up the accessibility menu so you can turn black and white mode on/off quickly if needed
For addictions I've wanted to get rid of I have:
1. Keep a spreadsheet of the hours I have spent on the activity, or
2. Kept a running log of how many days I have not done the activity - goal is usually 28 days
It helped me get off social media, and computer game addiction and a news site I didn't want to follow. I've used it successfully for alcohol too (but I was never a huge drinker).
I also used it to try and promote good behaviours too
Does the desired behavior continue after the initial 28 day period?
One problem I encountered when I tried to change my behavior using similar methods is that I don't know how strict I should be with myself. For example if I don't want to quit playing games entirely, and I'd like to enjoy the occasional game, I might set some soft limits, but that opens the door for a relapse in the future.
Or do you find that even temporary abstinence is worthwhile, even if the bad behavior comes back after some time?
I think that temporary abstinence is worthwhile - because what will happen is you find new ways to fill that time. And those new things will really be what helps you move on ultimately.
But yeah, you might relapse, it can be hard if you enjoy the activity a lot. But after you've had your fill it should be easier to walk away/ do another 28 days!
I did the same thing, I put my phone in Grayscale mode. It seems to help. It's incredible how much more enticing the colored versions of the thumbnails for shorts and videos are. The Grayscale also works as a reminder that I need to pay attention to my Youtube consumption.
However I imagine that I'll have to find a way to temporarily disable Grayscale for taking pictures and some other tasks.
Regarding the shorts, I really wish there were a setting to disable them altogether. They are pure evil.
People are (and should be) questioning the use of the word addiction. One of the components of addiction is: is it causing a harmful, unwanted effect on one's life? OP laid out his:
> I've been struggling with my mental health during the summertime, a time I traditionally have fewer problems. I wasn't recharging like I should. I was waking up tired, napping during the day, and generally not feeling at all prepared when the day started.
Yet, some people do activities excessively, even compulsively, but they're not addicted because it's not causing them any harm. My elderly parents have the TV on 16 hours a day, basically from the time they wake up to the time they go to bed. It's CNN and cooking shows and blah blah blah just to have a head on a screen talking in the background. It irritates me, but they're not addicts. Same with my daughter and YouTube. Streamers talking about nothing for hours, but her grades are great, her social life is fine, she's healthy and growing properly, so I can't really object. Some people just like to have blah blah blah as background noise all day, and I've come to just accept that it's not for me.
If you are using a word by its most common definition then sure. Addiction has more casual definitions in the dictionary.
Language evolves and the word addiction has evolved. It's used casually all the time like this blog post although there's no formal diagnosis.
Your examples bring up a good point. Many parents have the TV on all day in the background because they were raised with it. Many kids today will likely have streamers on all day as they grow up because they were raised with it.
It doesn't matter if they are good citizens or doing well in life, you can argue the perspective that it could be "harmful" if using the most common definition that many common mediums (radio, TV, internet, live streaming, etc) removes the sense of reality from people and promotes them to engage in consumerism/capitalism. That can be pretty harmful over the course of one's life although it's non-obvious.
I personally like the definition of addiction from David Foster Wallace. I couldn't manage to find the exact quote, but it's something like:
Addiction is when something purports to solve the very problems it creates.
Certainly not a standard definition, and might not be true in every case, but an interesting way to think about it. In the case of Youtube, watching videos might seem to solve the problem of loneliness and disconnect with the world, while actually exacerbating those problems.
DFW and his work definitely helped shape a modern definition of addiction. Much of the work I linked were inspirations to his work and ideology. I think most famously, DFW did not have a TV because he knew about his addictive personality and wouldn’t look away.
> People are (and should be) questioning the use of the word addiction. One of the components of addiction is: is it causing a harmful, unwanted effect on one's life?
Meriam Webster's second definition doesn't mention causing harm:
> a strong inclination to do, use, or indulge in something repeatedly
So, according to the way people typically use the word "addiction" and the literal dictionary definition of the word, it doesn't need to cause harm to be considered an addiction. I can readily admit that I'm addicted to coding. I feel a compulsion to code for ridiculous amounts of time, and that has caused a lot of good in my life. But, like with everything in life, there needs to be balance.
People typically also say things like watching youtube gives them dopamine hits and they will get rid of their addiction with a dopamine fast. The problem with using the word addiction is that there are two possible outcomes. Either the word becomes weak and stops having the seriousness it should, similar to how OCD now can mean liking organation or people associate the action with all of the negative connotations of addiction. The second happens more often, as observed in this thread, and people start shaming you, and casting and projecting their moral judgement on you based on an inconsequential fact.
Fundamentally it prepetuates the older generation mentality that screen use is the causes depression, dismissing the underlying struggle people face. If someone comes out and says they are depressed, someone will respond, "oh, you're watching too much youtube, you'll stop being depressed once you stop." It happens with every shift in the most popular mainstream technology.
That second definition is likely derived from colloquial usage. The closest parallel diagnosis from DSM is probably Internet Gaming Addiction, which does require harm or unwanted effects.
The colloquial definitions get silly. The second definition for "literally" is "not literally".
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[ 534 ms ] story [ 7579 ms ] threadI thing the key is to consume in moderation. Just like we take care of our body by exercising and limiting junk food, we need to meditate and be aware of our digital media consumption. Someone people don't have this problem but like you and me there are people who are struggling with this problem.
On the topic of Youtube addiction specifically, "letsblock.it" has some Youtube-specific filters which can be placed in uBlock Origin and help cut down on Youtube's addictiveness:
Hide Youtube shorts: https://letsblock.it/filters/youtube-shorts
Hide Youtube recommendations: https://letsblock.it/filters/youtube-recommendations
Hide Youtube videos you've already watched: https://letsblock.it/filters/youtube-watched
Or we can regulate it.
Even something as simple as the regulation requiring the site to make it EASY to turn those things off (But give the choice to consumers via big, easy to see toggles in the right places). Rather than having them put in browser extensions.
Even before YouTube, people could have spent 9 hours a day watching rented VHS and DVDs. It just took too much effort to form a habit based on instant gratification with that. So not many people did. And people were much more selective of what they consumed, too, which is an added benefit for mental health.
Then you will get significantly less addictive content suggestions.
But of course Google won't let it on the Play Store. Here it is:
https://newpipe.net/
An addict in denial. Sad.
/embed links are meant to be embedded in other pages and do not show any UI clutter. As it happens, they also work perfectly well if (re-)directly opened!
Comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23148026
Extension here: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-embed...
Not sure if thats the one you use, but it sounds like it. I need to port it to the Edge store, as I now use Edge instead of Chrome.
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/unhook-remove-yout...
! youtube suggested videos sidebar www.youtube.com##ytd-item-section-renderer.ytd-watch-next-secondary-results-renderer.style-scope
! youtube shorts on homepage www.youtube.com##.ytd-rich-section-renderer.style-scope > .ytd-rich-shelf-renderer.style-scope
I go through phases of deleting the app, which works really well, but then I’m not able to chromecast for the odd time I want to watch the occasional video with my partner.
I’d also still like to be aware of when videos from certain creators come out, so deleting the app just cuts that off entirely.
I would absolutely love to have an option for a YouTube app that only has a sub box and no recommendations.
Then when I have some time to kill, I go through the "Watch later" list and use "SendToKodi" to share the video to Kodi and watch it on my OLED TV comfortably on my couch. It also skips ads, sponsors, "HiT LikE ANd SUBsCRiBE" begging, etc.
I solved this problem on mobile with two approaches: 1. Use a content blocker (e.g. 1Blocker on iOS) to block CSS elements 2. Use an Invidious instance which has disabled the recommendations
It's fast, and when I need to use youtube I just uncomment out the line in vim.
Seen your comment here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28218076
Feel free to DM/PM me :)
I'm interested in psychology and philosophy, so I'll watch videos on those subjects every so often. Naturally, the Algorithm™ becomes obsessed with recommending me Peterson videos soon after. I'm 98% sure the "Do not recommend" and "Not interested" buttons are just there for show, because I keep seeing those suggestions whenever I wander off into psychology and philosophy videos.
I would like to be able to watch more YouTube videos, but their recommendations are so bad at this point that I have to find other things to do.
I have higher weekly hours, in the Youtube app on your phone, you can see weekly view stats. On wednesday my stats say 15 hours. I have ADHD and I leave YouTube running in the background while I work and when I sleep. I know for a fact that 5+ hour on wednesday was "10 Hours of Hotel AC White Noise (High power setting)". 80% of the time it's on in the background, either figuratively or literally white noise.
Taking a break is always beneficial, but I think this might be a situation where an escape becomes unhealthy and makes the situation worse but isn't the underlying cause. I strongly dislike the trend of using the word addiction to describe a bad or unhealthy habit. Unless watching YouTube held you back from performing other life function or you feel physical or mental withdrawal symptoms, I'd hestitate from using that word. Not just a craving, but also some sort of anxiety from being away or cancelling plans with friends or being late to work. People are fulltime Youtubers, being a creator can be everything from a hobby to a profession.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQdhL-XuKLY&t=17668s
Mine is Star Trek.
It’s not so much an escape as a habit, for me. I started young. When I was 13 or so, I was watching voyager while hacking on game engines. Then I never really stopped.
Nowadays it’s a mix of anime (hello berserk https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD85eRe7NELF7EFIl4YMQOxFw...) and trek. Also gothamchess.
Like you, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Wish I was addicted to books instead, but as far as addictions go, I’d rather it be this than smoking.
Here's my in flux playlist of what I call AmbianceLONG, 1hr+ videos that I shuffle through. I didn't know NasaTV is live on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvszIS0bSTf5hfuCNd3cG...
I am not sure if you grasp the difference in active and passive watching. I would suggest you do more research into how neurotransmitters function, that is not how dopamine works. Additionally I mentioned I have ADHD, "People with ADHD have at least one defective gene, the DRD2 gene that makes it difficult for neurons to respond to dopamine" [2] If anything dopamine is not doing what it needs to in my brain. I appreciate your concern, but it's misplaced. In my previous post I linked to a 10 hour video of the noise of an AC running in a motel room.
For students with ADHD in school, as part of a 504 plan they have the option to listen to music in class because it has been shown effective in improving focus.
1. https://www.amazon.com/MUSICOZY-Headphones-Bluetooth-Headban...
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2626918/#:~:tex....
I appreciate that it lets me live my life with less struggles. I am far from an outlier in any way. I would recommend looking up average watch time statistic across various social media platforms as well as Netflix, Amazon, etc. As well as viwer stats of seasons sports like College Football, Formula 1, FIFA.
"According to Insider Intelligence projections, while overall time spent with media per day will decline slightly from 13 hours, 13 minutes in 2021 to 13 hours, 7 minutes in 2022, time spent with digital media—video, smartphones, CTV, subscription OTT, and digital audio—will maintain steady gains and continue claiming even more time going forward."
https://www.insiderintelligence.com/insights/us-time-spent-w...
Radio is a great analogy for this. Compared to entire families coming come and sitting down in front of the national TV, I’d take social media any day.
There are other examples of this. Is too much video watching another instance? That’s for you to decide. At least consider it a possibility and then move on.
People these days love talking about nonsense like "dopamine hits", it's textbook pseudoscience.
My wife and I both do this.
> Will you be wearing headphones with constant babbling going on, disturbing your sleep patterns?
No more than the babbling in my mind disturbs it already. If anything, a coherent message is easier to fall asleep to.
That's how radio was used for generations.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JJi-NhExzs
If I want a little emo-boost for ADHD I'll just watch a few clips on Jessica's channel: https://www.youtube.com/@HowtoADHD
Otherwise (for me) YT is a resource for guides on taking apart old laptops and other how-tos, along with the occasional movie on the kitchen tablet, while prepping a meal or washing up.
That said, I have seen this cycle both spiral (as in this case) and be broken before. I've also helped a cousin who had this issue.
IMO and this is going to sound harsh, but bare with me -- the problem isn't YouTube, TikTok, etc the issue is you. If you have this "addiction" it's because you're enabled. For instance, I cannot just decide to watch 8 hrs of youtube videos a day, I have to wake up & let the dog out, feed the family, go to work, take the kids to sports classes, spend time with my wife, etc. At the end of the day, I have maybe an hour I could listen to something as I'm doing some maintenance on the house before bed. I'm happy, busy and have purpose. If you have responsibilities you'll be happier -- period. Yes, sometimes it'll suck, it is work after all (I had to clean up my dogs diarrhea the other day -- blah); but the process is rewarding. You can see what you've accomplished, people will care about you and you'll be happier.
Few thoughts on how this can be broken (and how I've seen it done)
1. Uninstall all your social media apps
2. Get an extension on your browser to block social media
3. In an extreme case, change your password to non-sense you don't know and to an email you create on the fly and don't know.
4. Get a pet
5. Make a list of objectives (small to large); make a plan to execute. You can fail, over and over again, but if you work towards them you'll eventually get there.
6. Go outside for a 30-60 min walk every day and force yourself to leave your phone. Cold or hot, doesn't matter. Remember, your ancestors lived outside 24/7, even 100 years ago, there was no AC.
7. Join communities -- could just be people at the gym, a church / w.e., archery club, it doesn't matter, just get social connections
8. Clean your house and room at least once a week and make your bed every day. Discipline is key and once you have a clean house for a while, you'll want to keep it clean.
9. Go to the gym every day if you can. Pick the closest one and just go every day for an hour. Use the machines as they're less likely to hurt you and you don't need any training. Build up to free weights (or if you know how to use them, go for it).
10. Eat healthy -- meat, veg, fruit.
My pet Pip! https://imgur.com/a/vAFOZHd
Also, HN is just as much social media as any other. How often do you glance at your karma the moment the site loads?
(Didn’t downvote though.)
I’m also not saying this stuff is explicitly bad. I’m simply pointing out I know multiple people with this issue described (hrs and hrs on social media), and provided a path how I’ve seen people successfully overcome it.
Regarding Tiktok, it definitely is interesting in a few ways, but it’s not an overly difficult algorithm. It’s data collection and format. I think it’s mostly the UX/UI focus that makes it different from any of the other apps. Imo it’s less information dense to end users and more addiction focused. My favorite tid-bit is that they know when you’re about to drop off usage so they’ll send you highly ranked content in a notification. Basically, this results in doom scrolling right before sleep.
There are followers. They’re just not a number.
Powerful users moderate the comments.
All of this is mostly invisible, but it’s there.
You're right about "powerful users", but notice that my point was in the context of individual sub-forums
(in the context of a downvote, this is a classic strawman)
Ads have been getting a LOT worse very quickly. Almost every ad I saw in a day when my UBlock wasn’t working was advertising an actual fraud. Whether crypto or recession get rich quick or “aluminum is giving you cancer.”
Advertising frequency is cranked way up. On mobile 5 second unskippables are 6-7 now. I’ll do a search and my ENTIRE screen is advertising until I scroll down and find results.
People say it’s based on your history, but I don’t buy that as none of what it shows me is even slightly relevant. It just seems like they don’t have enough relevant ads to show, so they throw shit at the wall.
I’ve wondered if it’s because I’m into 3d printing and many other people who are into are interested in action figures/minis/what have you. Possible connection?
In any case ads do seem to be getting less relevant and skeezy themes are developing.
The worst one I’ve been seeing a lot of is “single Ukrainian women”. One went as far as showing a quick and easy process of selection and “purchase”. I have no idea how that would be targeted at me, but it see a lot of them.
Jokes aside, if you do your data request from FB you should see your advertising selectors come back. Before I deleted my account, FB thought I was a 17 year old girl interested in boy bands and makeup.
There might be more involved solutions that work better but I’m not interested in accumulating stuff I have to maintain.
I've always exclusively interacted with Youtube from my PC, with uBlock enabled. I don't see ads and because I haven't for such a long time, I've normalized that state.
Until I got a new TV, with a fancy TV OS. My mother-in-law was visiting and I was trying to play some clips of her favorite music via the TV app. I was absolutely shocked. Every 2 minutes or so, 2 brief ads in succession.
It makes viewing anything with joy impossible. You can't get into the moment as its constantly stopped in its tracks. Absolute hellish ad regime.
And while we’re on this topic: Google’s rockstar elite engineers and designers removed the ability to force a resolution for YouTube + Chromecast. But it also wrongly auto detects my gigabit internet as being too weak so it’s literally impossible to get anything above 480p on my basement TV. (Twitch and others stream in HD without issue)
Twitch on the other hand? If I'm watching on mobile I'll regularly get 90 seconds or more of unskipable ads every 10 minutes. Most of the time this makes me close the app and overall has torpedoed my watch time.
Now I’m on the road and I have a laptop and an ipad. I’ve got no extra screen and the extra tab will be expensive on my battery. I tried the iPad YouTube app but I’d get an ad for every 4-5 minutes.
After a couple weeks i stopped watching YouTube altogether. I was considering getting a premium subscription but found out later that I don’t miss it that much.
I think the $5/month will be used to stream bitcoin to podcasts over lightening.
"Oh you watched one video about [x] by creator [y]. Here are 100 more videos by creatory [y]. Here are 100 more videos about [x]"
...uh I watched a recipe for cheesecake. I don't need 100 more cheesecake videos, or even 100 more recipes by that youtuber.
They will also blindly recommend popular things, which is irritating. Steam is an exception here - it has a slider bar that allows exclusion of popular content in favor of niche / indie stuff.
When I first studied recommendation algorithms I remember the classic "people who buy hamburgers and hamburger buns also buy ketchup and mustard" sort of things. On youtube its more like people who watch a video about anything are doomed to be recommended further videos about that thing forever, and adjacent 'also watched' related topics aren't really a thing.
I think that's a great way of describing it. Watching "educational" content feels better or more productive than watching a Let's Play, but it's all basically empty entertainment -- the medium and the algorithm sort've necessitate it. Which is definitely not to say there's not awesome resources on youtube for actually learning things, but, for the most part, I'm not watching things that actually take mental effort. I'm more often just letting trash wash over me while also convincing myself that it's OK because "I'm learning" (even though whatever trivial factoid being discussed is immediately ejected from my brain when the next video starts)
I've realized that the internet has a numbing effect on me. It all washes over me until I feel absolutely nothing and I'm just mindlessly consuming. My ISP was recently down for a day, and it actually made life (at least temporarily) more interesting. Rather than just sitting in front of a screen and having content pumped into my veins, my SO and I had to leave the house to seek out things to do.
Then the internet came back and now we're both back on the drip.
You can get highly informative, mind-changing videos with 10k-30k views. And on the other end, hot-take, "debate me bro!" Twitch personalities with 1M-3M views.
That's the nature of it, don't see this on any other category really.
Video addiction is not a thing. See how stupid it sounds when you say it like it is?
Outside of lampooning how absurd your comment sounds, I don't think it's your place to call if something is a valid addiction or not, and addictions don't have to be strictly medically defined to be considered as such. Just because there isn't some ICD-10 definition for "YouTube addiction" doesn't mean it can't exist, because addiction fundamentally just means a dependence or habitual occupation with something.
And so, is Youtube addiction as debilitating as something like alcoholism? I think most people would say absolutely not, but presumably it's distressing enough to the writer of the post that they have formed a habit around watching (a lot of) it, perceive it as a negative, and want to change it. I would colloquially consider this an addiction.
There's a reason the DSM5 and ICD-10 don't have any of the "internet addiction" "video game addiction" "porn addiction" or other cult concepts that scammers use to defraud people of their money. They aren't actually addiction.
There's not even a thing called "Gambling Addiction". Only, "Gambling disorder" and it's the only behavioral "addiction" recognized by the DSM-5.
You're playing with semantics in a context where
1) everyone understands what the author is saying when talking about addiction, making it appropriate to convey what they mean
2) the word pre-dates DSM, the fact that DSM defines that in a medical sense doesn't change the definition from the dictionary, which fits very much with what the author is describing (1). That's very much you getting angry at sound engineers because they are not engineers per the sense of professional colleges, whereas that's how their profession is called.
3) Give time to all the troubles created by digital products to be studied, understood, and make their way into that guide. Psychology and mental afflictions are still a very evolving field of medicine. DSM is changing to reflect that, a notable change between IV and V was regrouping AS into ADS because the symptoms and the underlying cause are similar. The is the case for what everyone calls digital addiction. I suspect there will be some forms of that formally coming up.
4) the dependency mechanisms work in the same way, people suffering from it have the same withdrawal symptoms. There's some valid criticism for the DSM not to categorize it as addiction (2)(3).
> Video addiction is not a thing. See how stupid it sounds when you say it like it is?
5) the author's struggle to disconnect is real, the impact on their life is real, their pain is real. I am not sure what authorizes you to discard their pain, and to qualify this as stupid. Show a little empathy.
1: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addiction 2: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/addiction-in-society... 3: https://unitedbrainassociation.org/brain-resources/digital-a...
2: This is a legit argument. In the past people may have used the word addiction to cover many things. But it is no longer the year 1900.
3: I guess we better wait till your prediction additions to the DSM6 happen then. I think it more likely that gambling disorder will be removed than additional behavioral "addiction" disorders put in. I'm not sure what the folding of aspergers into autism spectrum disorders has to do with this?
4: Claiming that there are psysiological withdrawl symptoms from watching youtube is absurd. There are not. Show me the journal article supporting such an outlandish claim. Dependency also has a meaning in this context and merely missing something psychologically isn't it. Psychological dependence is not physiological dependence and neither are addiction. Just like how no one is addicted to benzodiazapines: they become physiologically dependent and experience widthdrawl but addiction requires more.
5: Personal anecdotes and emotional appeals are not valid arguments. I'm sorry the person is having psych troubles but "youtube" is not the cause.
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35682491/
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28542470/
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352799801_Social_me...
Note that the DIS also categorizes gaming disorders under addictive behaviors, I encourage you to read the definition for "other disorders resulting from addictive behaviours", that the author's description matches.
https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int...
re #1: The WHO adding internet addiction reflects the amount of sway China's political processes have over WHO declarations more than anything else. Their internal political narrative is that this is a problem and the WHO is being used to support that. The repetition of the falsified blue light hypothesis re: sleep is also informative re: the quality of citation #1. As for "changes in glutamatergic and gabaergic" signalling... if that doesn't happen when it means you're brain dead. Glutamate or GABA expressing neurons literally make up ~3/4 of the neuronal cells in the brain. And both are regulated extraceullary by glial cells too. You cannot do anything without changing this. If they'd done fMRI or PET or something and could shown long term abberant changes in the glutamergic signalling in the shell of the nucelus accumbens then maybe it'd be saying something. But they don't and I'm getting ahead of myself.
Citation #2 shows that when people are doing something relaxing and then they stop doing it they aren't as relaxed. That's hardly surprising. The arguments seem to be pop-sci level characterizations of the brain where any change is seen as significant or having a valance, good or bad.
And then they go and cite obviously false out-dated concepts like the idea of dopaminergic cells being neccessary or sufficient for expressions of pleasure/reward,
> Dopamine plays a critical role in this circuitry, for the subjective pleasure associated with positive rewards, and the motivation or drive-related reinforcements associated with eating, drinking, or drugs [73,74]
>The initially pleasant, so-called rewarding effects of the drug are relayed by the release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens (NA) by the synaptic endings from the neurons of the ventral tegmental area (VTA) of the mesocorticolimbic circuitry [79,80].
It's actually glutamergic cells in the shell of the nucleus accumbens that are necessary and sufficient (but not all encompassing) for pleasure expression in mammals. Dopaminergic neurons can be blocked off with antagonists and the expression is still complete. The modern understanding is that mesolimbic dopaminergic populations encode for wanting and reward prediction. Glutamergic cells encode for reward/pleasure. I'd hope that someone writing a policy paper like this would cite up to date knowledge but it is excusable and a side point.
The real problem with #2 is that it doesn't actually talk about withdrawl symptoms in "digital addicts". It talks about widthdrawl symptoms and neurochemistry known in actual drug addicts and then just implicitly applies that all these statements must apply to the behavior "digital addiction" too. They don't show data about "digital addiction" withdrawl.
The third article is behind a cloudflare wall and I cannot access it.
I don't think it even matters that most of the stuff I watch is educational, fascinating, and helping me learn new things. It affects my sleep and is still a bit of a passive time suck (like I could just be experimenting with wok cooking in the hours spent watching dozens of videos of others learning how to cook with a wok). So will check out these various extensions that remove recommendations, etc.
There's probably some merit to this statement, but I sorta laugh at the difference in harm between 'watching' and 'playing'. Maybe the most candid thing for us to do is acknowledge that the "harm" we're talking about is a lack of gratification.
(At least, this is how it is for me, can’t speak for the GP.)
The PS5 is really nice at this because you don't even have to exit the game. Just send it into rest mode and when you come back your game is still running ready to pick up where you left off.
For me it's a lot more satisfying than watching a YouTube video, but YMMV.
Actually a really big harm is the opportunity cost and substitution for real life.
Video games feel like achievement but they're not --> so they don't get the rewards in life that come with real achievement --> so when they engage with real life it kinda sucks (from neglected chores, to neglected career and relationships) --> So they go to video games for that gratification feeling of status/achievement.
People putting in those 80 hours to get that one bonus and the guy trying to get all the Steam achievements are spiritually the same person, whether the source of the dopamine rushes is virtual or analog doesn't make much of a difference, including in terms of resulting misery.
Games as a form of creativity, play and connection are fantastic precisely because they're simply leisure activities, something increasingly lost on most people.
I don't quite see your logic here. How is it "harm-reduced"? Playing a game can be quite enriching and stimulating, whereas watching a video you're just sitting completely idle. To me, it sounds like you're just irrationally worried about playing a game for some reason.
I think this suggestion does the opposite of help.
However... I have a little cousin in my family, and all she does it watch twitch. I've asked before "Don't want to play the games you're watching?" and she looks at me like I asked to solve fusion.
So, there is a hand shake meme of people who play because of twitch and people who just want to watch twitch... Good for twitch. Bad for humans.
Also making a mental note of how long you spend helps, even if you don't have the willpower to stop then and there. Over time You keep making that same note and eventually build up the fortitude to modify your behaviour / fight your addiction. Good luck to you all.
I have my phone on Dutch so I loosely translated those. Hope it is helpful.
Or do you find that even temporary abstinence is worthwhile, even if the bad behavior comes back after some time?
However I imagine that I'll have to find a way to temporarily disable Grayscale for taking pictures and some other tasks.
Regarding the shorts, I really wish there were a setting to disable them altogether. They are pure evil.
Oh my god I need to watch this. Any recommendations?
In that order.
Yes, these are all channel names.
> I've been struggling with my mental health during the summertime, a time I traditionally have fewer problems. I wasn't recharging like I should. I was waking up tired, napping during the day, and generally not feeling at all prepared when the day started.
Yet, some people do activities excessively, even compulsively, but they're not addicted because it's not causing them any harm. My elderly parents have the TV on 16 hours a day, basically from the time they wake up to the time they go to bed. It's CNN and cooking shows and blah blah blah just to have a head on a screen talking in the background. It irritates me, but they're not addicts. Same with my daughter and YouTube. Streamers talking about nothing for hours, but her grades are great, her social life is fine, she's healthy and growing properly, so I can't really object. Some people just like to have blah blah blah as background noise all day, and I've come to just accept that it's not for me.
Language evolves and the word addiction has evolved. It's used casually all the time like this blog post although there's no formal diagnosis.
Your examples bring up a good point. Many parents have the TV on all day in the background because they were raised with it. Many kids today will likely have streamers on all day as they grow up because they were raised with it.
It doesn't matter if they are good citizens or doing well in life, you can argue the perspective that it could be "harmful" if using the most common definition that many common mediums (radio, TV, internet, live streaming, etc) removes the sense of reality from people and promotes them to engage in consumerism/capitalism. That can be pretty harmful over the course of one's life although it's non-obvious.
See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Arguments_for_the_Elimina...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
Addiction is when something purports to solve the very problems it creates.
Certainly not a standard definition, and might not be true in every case, but an interesting way to think about it. In the case of Youtube, watching videos might seem to solve the problem of loneliness and disconnect with the world, while actually exacerbating those problems.
Meriam Webster's second definition doesn't mention causing harm:
> a strong inclination to do, use, or indulge in something repeatedly
So, according to the way people typically use the word "addiction" and the literal dictionary definition of the word, it doesn't need to cause harm to be considered an addiction. I can readily admit that I'm addicted to coding. I feel a compulsion to code for ridiculous amounts of time, and that has caused a lot of good in my life. But, like with everything in life, there needs to be balance.
[0]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addiction
Fundamentally it prepetuates the older generation mentality that screen use is the causes depression, dismissing the underlying struggle people face. If someone comes out and says they are depressed, someone will respond, "oh, you're watching too much youtube, you'll stop being depressed once you stop." It happens with every shift in the most popular mainstream technology.
The colloquial definitions get silly. The second definition for "literally" is "not literally".
That way I don’t habit jump into a YouTube marathon but still search for specific topics when I need to.
I do that with hacker news too.