I'd say it's a lot closer to Valorant than to the max-saturation graphics of Fortnite. But I think they found a good balance, it still looks like you can take the world seriously imho.
It's an attempt to solve "player readability". It's common complaint in CS:GO. Many pros play with color vibrance cranked in driver or monitor settings.
Pretty amazing how well the core concept of Counter-strike still holds up today. Really looking forward for the technical articles which will supersede this launch.
Amazing to finally see some work being put into CS, and just this smoke grenade sneak peek already makes me very curious to see how this will play in practice.
It's clear at least that they aren't afraid of changing the meta in a rather substantial way -- which is of course dangerous on one hand, since I'm guessing CS is so popular precisely because of its timelessness, but also necessary on the other hand if we ever want to improve upon it.
There's a part of the website that states it'll be an upgrade to CSGO. I wonder if that means we're losing CSGO, or if there will be some sort of "legacy mode" that either retains CSGO as an option or simply shims its gameplay into CS2.
CS does change substantially between releases. The movement has gotten slower and less nimble since CS:Source and the AK/M4 primary dominance is markedly reduced in CS:GO.
CSGO has had a lot of work put into it. It's a very different game than when I started playing it (over 10 years ago). I remember it wasn't even developed by Valve, originally. It was developed by Hidden Path Entertainment. For a long time after it was released, CS 1.6 and Source were still more popular than it. None of the maps in the current Active Duty pool were included in the initial CSGO release. They've either been re-made from scratch or are entirely new. Every weapon other than maybe the knife has undergone balancing changes in terms of cost, reload speed, movement speed, accuracy, etc. Various new weapons have been added to the game. New game modes have been added, including Danger Zone, which is pretty much an entire game of itself. Battle passes have been introduced. Skins implemented. Etc., etc. - and 1.6 and Source are all but forgotten.
I think this is actually the key to understanding the significance of CS2. It looks very similar to CSGO. But, in 10 years time, I suspect many major changes will have been made that will distinguish it very much from CSGO, updates that would have been impossible if they'd stuck with the source engine.
I'm happy to see more game devs eschew realism for the benefit of gameplay. Does shooting a bullet clear a tunnel through smoke IRL? No. Does making it do that make for some cool gameplay? hell yes
We're also getting out of the 2008/Xbox era of FPS design where everyone was going for a gritty, brownish Desert War realistic look. Think early CS:GO or Gears of War.
Finally we can return to having some colours on ours screens other than dark yellow and brown.
> As a result, regardless of tick rate, your moving and shooting will be equally responsive and your grenades will always land the same way.
Is this a signal that they will reduce tick rate? Based off what they said, what would the reason be not to?
I’m familiar with tick rate as a user but I’m not sure how it manifests in the code/hardware. Like, if it’s some setting they can easily change or if it’s the consequence of something else. I wonder if they can easily reduce it to lower costs or something.
Interesting, I will watch that when I get a chance. Maybe it addresses some of these thoughts already.
I wonder how much this is just reframing the concepts though. It kinda seems like they are just increasing tick rate tremendously because the type of system we call tick rate has changed.
I mean, there has to be some interval at which the game is updated right? Wouldn’t that be the tick rate?
There is no such thing as removing tick rate, the video is confusing, I think it's improvement with rollback and also gameplay improvements with how grenades work etc ...
The concept of "rollback netcode" is something that generally only applies to fighting games, shooters with dedicated servers use lag compensation instead which just means that, every time you shoot someone, the hit detection is done on the server but the server rolls back the player's position depending on your ping to make sure their position roughly matches what you saw when you shot. CSGO2 is just improving this so the rolled back player positions can be interpolated between frames instead of only being able to roll back to wherever a player was on an exact tick, which is what it currently does.
Except things are more complicated as you need to consider exact position someone was when someone else pressed the shoot button, etc.
To answer grandparent's question: They'll likely reducing tick rate to save server costs. However they can't lower too much without having noticeable effects for systems which don't account for sub-frame accuracy.
Nits: Above is a simplification and theoretically you could do things differently, but as this is in Source Engine 2, they're definitely using ticks still.
We'll have to see whether there even still _is_ a tick rate. Afaik you only need ticks if you need to simulate something in your world that needs iterative updates, such as objects following a complex motion that doesn't have closed-form movement equations. I can't think of anything like that in CS, so basically all the events can just happen at arbitrary times, and the server and clients will still know the world's state at any other point in time just from extrapolating from the start time.
Take e.g. grenades. So far they were updated through iterations at either 64 or 128 ticks per second, with both having a slight divergence from an actual parabola (the 64 tick variant diverging more than the 128 one), since between the ticks the moment would only be interpolated. That meant that nades were behaving differently depending on tick rate. Now, the grenade just has a start time and start vector, and you can know exactly where it is at any point in time using the closed form movement equations for an object in parabolic flight.
Not all source engine games play nice with variable tickrates but CSGO mostly does, that's why you can play on either 64 or 128. With this change to hit detection though, 128 tick will probably become redundant so 60-70 will probably become the standard across both casual and competitive play. I doubt they will reduce it under 60.
"Sub-tick updates are the heart of Counter-Strike 2. Previously, the server only evaluated the world in discrete time intervals (called ticks). Thanks to Counter-Strike 2’s sub-tick update architecture, servers know the exact instant that motion starts, a shot is fired, or a ‘nade is thrown."
Not sure what it means but it's probably related to the rollback tech in the source 1 engine, which is pretty outdated.
Yeah, I'm interpreting this as instead of sending an integer of the tick that something occured on, they're sending a floating number of when it happened.
I assume the float they send will have a limit in accuracy however. So really it's not like ticks are 'gone', they're just getting much much smaller.
The ticks aren't going away. They're just sending exact timestamps for movement so the server side view of a hitbox is more accurate when rewinding hixboes. The difference on 60 tick was sometimes large enough to miss headshots on faraway targets. It'd of course help if their clock sync and anti-drift measures were better now. It's NTP hard mode.
Shouldn't really make any difference, because they're already super effective with ticks. Having more fine timing accuracy doesn't drastically improve them.
At the server, client input events exercise some localized net code layer on a purely ad-hoc basis (i.e. serviced in small batches the moment packets are received). Players involved in these interactions could receive immediate updates from the localized, ad-hoc simulation (i.e. "infinite" tick rate).
The global tick is responsible for synchronizing these ad-hoc buckets (i.e. the same player can't die to 2 different kill shots). Rollback would likely be required in some cases, but if the global simulation is ticking at 60hz and the likelihood of a rollback is low, I think it could feel really good.
Rollback is really the best lag compensation tech we have, trusting a client to a very small degree to tell their state of the world (or rather a delta to current) is much better than most other contemporaries. Call of Duty still divides your RTT by half at the start of a match and rewinds by that much. On connections with asyncronous latency this can be extremely impactful.
I’m not sure your information wrt Call Of Duty is correct.
To my knowledge, the client timestamps their inputs and sends them to the server; the server will then rewind the state of the world to the time of the input before applying it. RTT isn’t an input. Each snapshot from the server includes the server world timestamp of that snapshot; the client will gently lerp its clock to match this per frame.
Source - I’m a COD engine developer the last ~15 years or so.
Oh, I remember you from T5 debug messages. You are most certainly more knowledgable about this topic than me.
My info might be outdated, but I've noticed that on asyncronous routes, there seems to be a large bias that's based on on assuming upstream latency == downstream latency. It might just be the clock not getting adjusted (even most NTP imlementations make this assumption), but it also has been since ~T7 that I even checked. Conditioning the network to add ~40ms to downstream latency could actually reproduce this behavior.
People don't really realize how hard of a problem sub-10ms clock sync can be on cursed networks.
I've been hearing about Source 2 port of CSGO since 2015. Now I can't believe it actually happened. When I quit playing a few years ago I was at over 5000h played. I might add a couple hundred for old times sake
Play times are often wildly inaccurate for me because I leave games up and running over long periods of time. Especially games like Dwarf Fortress or Rimworld. I could have them running for literally days at a time with me only hopping in between meetings or something to advance things a bit.
Great work by the team. Let's see how it all feels when the game comes out. The new smokes will have a massive impact in competitive play, perhaps more so for the entertainment value which comes from all the live events throughout the year.
Good for Richard Lewis who pretty much put his reputation on the line by calling out the fact that the release was coming. [0]
As a Garry's Mod veteran, S&Box looks like something entirely different. Although Garry says it's a kind of sequel, it doesn't look like it is. It's more like a meta game engine. Or metaverse (god I hate that word.) I don't expect it to be a hit sadly.
You took the words right out of my mouth. I think Garry overcorrected and became a perfectionist concerned more with the code and engine than making something that people will want to play.
Garry's Mod was fun because it was silly. It was far from perfect but we were happy putting thrusters and balloons on jeeps and flying around. He's lost sight of that it seems. He wants to build something perfect and I fear that's going to make it a sterile experience.
after GMod was launched on Steam with much better support for Lua scripting, what we call Garry's Mod grew into just one game mode (the sandbox gamemode). with S&Box, I think Garry's idea is that the GMod sequel is just one of the game modes. he/they are focusing on the developer platform first and foremost.
I think there will be a GMod 2 gamemode that resembles what we remember (balloons, thrusters, etc)
How do I gain access to the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test?
Players are selected based on a number of factors deemed important by the Counter-Strike 2 development team, including (but not limited to) recent playtime on Valve official servers, trust factor, and Steam account standing.
How do I know if I've been selected for the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test?
If you are chosen to participate in the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test you will receive a notification on the main menu of CS:GO.
If you receive an invitation select "ENROLL" and begin your download. When the download is complete launch CS:GO and select the "Limited Test" option to play the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test.
How often are players added to the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test?
More players will be added to the Limited Test over time. Keep checking your CS:GO main menu to see if you have received an invite.
How long will the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test last?
Counter-Strike 2 is expected to ship Summer 2023.
Now for the love of all that is holy: revert or fix the weapon sounds! Half of the reason I love Apex Legends is the sound engineering and how it contributes to the experience and satisfaction of the overall gameplay.
"Counter-Strike 2 sounds have been reworked to better reflect the physical environment, be more distinct, and express more game state. They have also been rebalanced for a more comfortable listening experience."
It's funny because "audio bugs" are one of the most frequent complaints in the Apex community. But that's probably just because the players have gotten so used to depending on spatial audio when it works properly, that they get especially frustrated when it doesn't.
I've always found the complaints about audio weird. It almost seems like something that plagues consoles or low end hardware? I only say this because I'm a day 1 player of Apex and can maybe think of a half dozen that audio has failed me, but for known things like the super quiet Octane pad landings having no audio or prior to Ashe's ultimate being made louder. But if you go to the Apex subreddit, especially daily threads there are dozens of users complaining about it as though it is a pervasive issue that everyone should care about. Is it random, but I've been lucky? Is it poor hardware? Is it only on consoles?
Valve is usually pretty good at sound, atleast it is in Dota 2. I can follow an entire game with only sound effects (I also did play the game for 10 years, which contributes).
I second this. From my youth where I just couldn't afford a better pc, to now where my gaming pc has been off for half a year again because I can't be bothered to switch computers, the relative undemanding nature of Counter Strike has been part of the core identity of the game and reason to stick to it for me.
(And of course it's just nice for as many people as possible to be able to play it)
I’ve been replaying Portal 2 on the switch with my wife and Valve games really are something special. We need more of them. I want to play HL: Alex so badly but can’t justify the price of the VR headset, personally.
I don’t play CS anymore so I don’t appreciate this firsthand. Besides the smokes, it looks pretty much the same. Do the physics feel different or something?
My understanding is that this is CSGO ported to source 2. I’m not clear on what the differences between the engines are, or if it was a rework of the original engine or completely new.
As I understand it, the real advantage is that it will make it easier to make and maintain mods and skins and things than the aged CS:GO version. So they want to make it so that it basically plays exactly the same except prettier.
The thing that always killed me about CS:GO was the lack of mods and custom maps. They exist, sure - but not in the amount and creativity that was available for CS:Source or CS 1.5 and 1.6
CS started as a mod so it only makes sense to have tons of cool custom maps
Agreed. I played CS back in the beta days and I loved the different maps and things like the hostage and even the VIP scenarios. I miss that variety. dust2 is good but how about that one where you were small and you could turn the gravity down so you could jump all over? rattrap? something like that.
CSGO does not cater to casual players at all. I hope that changes a bit with CS2. I started playing CS as a 24/7 cs_assault public server player before getting competitive.
The new tick system will mean physics will be the same for everyone in matchmaking and pro. Previously 64 and 128 tick had different physics for grenades. Now thats completely eliminated.
I'm dubious about the changes to smoke. The volumetric stuff, is cool, but being able to shoot holes in it and blow it away with grenades is a really huge game play change.
I suppose they have to shake up the game a little, but the CS community is very stubborn about change. We'll have to see how they take it.
I'm sure they had plenty of feedback on all new features from the selected pros. It doesn't necessarily mean the change is good, of course, but at least it can be reverted.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 272 ms ] threadIt’s more colorful for sure but still looks “pale”
It's clear at least that they aren't afraid of changing the meta in a rather substantial way -- which is of course dangerous on one hand, since I'm guessing CS is so popular precisely because of its timelessness, but also necessary on the other hand if we ever want to improve upon it.
I think this is actually the key to understanding the significance of CS2. It looks very similar to CSGO. But, in 10 years time, I suspect many major changes will have been made that will distinguish it very much from CSGO, updates that would have been impossible if they'd stuck with the source engine.
Finally we can return to having some colours on ours screens other than dark yellow and brown.
Is this a signal that they will reduce tick rate? Based off what they said, what would the reason be not to?
I’m familiar with tick rate as a user but I’m not sure how it manifests in the code/hardware. Like, if it’s some setting they can easily change or if it’s the consequence of something else. I wonder if they can easily reduce it to lower costs or something.
I wonder how much this is just reframing the concepts though. It kinda seems like they are just increasing tick rate tremendously because the type of system we call tick rate has changed.
I mean, there has to be some interval at which the game is updated right? Wouldn’t that be the tick rate?
The problem with the above is when sub-frame timings matter. What they're doing is being smarter about how they're calculating things.
Eg: A 'naive' approach to movement could be:
But an approach which would improve timings is: Except things are more complicated as you need to consider exact position someone was when someone else pressed the shoot button, etc.To answer grandparent's question: They'll likely reducing tick rate to save server costs. However they can't lower too much without having noticeable effects for systems which don't account for sub-frame accuracy.
Nits: Above is a simplification and theoretically you could do things differently, but as this is in Source Engine 2, they're definitely using ticks still.
Not sure what it means but it's probably related to the rollback tech in the source 1 engine, which is pretty outdated.
I assume the float they send will have a limit in accuracy however. So really it's not like ticks are 'gone', they're just getting much much smaller.
At the server, client input events exercise some localized net code layer on a purely ad-hoc basis (i.e. serviced in small batches the moment packets are received). Players involved in these interactions could receive immediate updates from the localized, ad-hoc simulation (i.e. "infinite" tick rate).
The global tick is responsible for synchronizing these ad-hoc buckets (i.e. the same player can't die to 2 different kill shots). Rollback would likely be required in some cases, but if the global simulation is ticking at 60hz and the likelihood of a rollback is low, I think it could feel really good.
To my knowledge, the client timestamps their inputs and sends them to the server; the server will then rewind the state of the world to the time of the input before applying it. RTT isn’t an input. Each snapshot from the server includes the server world timestamp of that snapshot; the client will gently lerp its clock to match this per frame.
Source - I’m a COD engine developer the last ~15 years or so.
My info might be outdated, but I've noticed that on asyncronous routes, there seems to be a large bias that's based on on assuming upstream latency == downstream latency. It might just be the clock not getting adjusted (even most NTP imlementations make this assumption), but it also has been since ~T7 that I even checked. Conditioning the network to add ~40ms to downstream latency could actually reproduce this behavior.
People don't really realize how hard of a problem sub-10ms clock sync can be on cursed networks.
There's only 2,000 hours in an entire year, if you work a typical 9-5 job, 5-days per week.
This would be like play CS as a full-time job for 2.5 years straight.
Good for Richard Lewis who pretty much put his reputation on the line by calling out the fact that the release was coming. [0]
[0]: https://richardlewis.substack.com/p/sources-yes-counter-stri...
It's the complete opposite strategy. Do nothing for several years, and then hope people buy it when it comes out.
Garry's Mod was fun because it was silly. It was far from perfect but we were happy putting thrusters and balloons on jeeps and flying around. He's lost sight of that it seems. He wants to build something perfect and I fear that's going to make it a sterile experience.
I think there will be a GMod 2 gamemode that resembles what we remember (balloons, thrusters, etc)
Jokes aside, Valve does awesome work. Proton alone is a gift. Steam as a platform is best in class.
How do I gain access to the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test? Players are selected based on a number of factors deemed important by the Counter-Strike 2 development team, including (but not limited to) recent playtime on Valve official servers, trust factor, and Steam account standing.
How do I know if I've been selected for the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test? If you are chosen to participate in the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test you will receive a notification on the main menu of CS:GO.
If you receive an invitation select "ENROLL" and begin your download. When the download is complete launch CS:GO and select the "Limited Test" option to play the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test.
How often are players added to the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test? More players will be added to the Limited Test over time. Keep checking your CS:GO main menu to see if you have received an invite.
How long will the Counter-Strike 2 Limited Test last? Counter-Strike 2 is expected to ship Summer 2023.
Discovering “fun maps” servers gave me a second wind with that game long after I was no longer a twitchy teenager doing 5v5
"Counter-Strike 2 sounds have been reworked to better reflect the physical environment, be more distinct, and express more game state. They have also been rebalanced for a more comfortable listening experience."
https://counter-strike.net/cs2
(And of course it's just nice for as many people as possible to be able to play it)
TF2 when :)
TF3 when?
My understanding is that this is CSGO ported to source 2. I’m not clear on what the differences between the engines are, or if it was a rework of the original engine or completely new.
CS started as a mod so it only makes sense to have tons of cool custom maps
I suppose they have to shake up the game a little, but the CS community is very stubborn about change. We'll have to see how they take it.
I think it could be a cool new meta.
Smoke grenades have been a sort of movable one-way mirror for too long; being somewhat counter-intuitive
Just learn from CS:Source and pour more money into tournaments et voilà.