One other thing to note though is you're more likely to get injured on an electric scooter vs a bike, because it's much harder to control braking in the event of an emergency.
Personally I use a combination of online delivery and going to the supermarket in person. When I need some stuff right now, I visit the store. When I’m bulk buying long life stuff, especially large and heavy things, delivery makes more sense and in my area costs only $2.
I bought a used ebike in January to test. And it's fantastic !
I can easily get my PC, locks, food for the day, and whatever I want over the hills to go to work (I once went to the hardware shop at noon from the office, and cycled back home with my new electric tools)
I also take over cars when there is traffic, so I take about the same time to go to work everyday.
I like that the motor of the ebike stops gradually around 25km/h. So I can just provide the power I want, and the motor will then do its share to reach about 25.
Which means I can still either train or not do anything.
I no longer bear to drive my car in traffic to go to work.
When I tried to do that with a manual bike, I couldn't do it everyday, I had to watch the weight, and I could hardly go to training in the evening.
But the ebike can be a daily ride without any problem.
I haven't done this but it might be worth looking at what mountain bike riders wear in the winter, assuming they don't stop riding. They're likely wearing things which climbers (in the winter) and skiers would wear.
... or just people in finland who ride bikes all year round.
Sure it can suck to ride your bike on a cold wet day like we get in Seattle, but the right gear can help a lot... and I'm not sure anyone is saying, "If you buy a bike you MUST sell your car and do everything on the bike". I'm taking the bike as a challenge to myself, trying to do all I can on it. But if one day I'm just not up for it or it's just pouring, or the load is to big or too far. That's what car share is for. If everyone did similar we'd have a lot more pleasant cities.
no, but snow plows and salt on roads do. also it's not like ice is instant death for a bike. it's only a problem if you brake or turn suddenly. with a little bit of care biking in ice is avoidable
The right clothes works great when you're going to the gym. When you're going to work though it is extremely difficult to not end up sweaty, and many offices don't have showers.
At first, I don't live in Canada.
Most days are not either freezing winter with snow or 50C, but a compromise.
Now, I suggest you find freetime2's comment in this post, who correctly summarized that you can put intelligence into choosing how to commute each morning.
Yeah, I have been very surprised by the fact that e-bikes require you to think less about clothing than regular bikes.
In the hot summer you sweat buckets on a regular bike, but an e-bike is cooler than just walking because not only are you not exerting yourself, but the speed generates a breeze.
And in the winter you can choose to pedal a little harder to compensate for the cold wind and again stay the same temperature just as walking.
E-bikes are much closer to walking than traditional cycling when dealing with temperatures.
Whilst I agree that offfering a 15 minute video as an answer to a comment, with no timestamp/tldr for a quick answer is extremely inefficient, the video specifically states that you don't need to put on, as you say 'gazillion clothing' items, and the narrator in the video says that he only wears a jacket, gloves and a hat whilst cycling in the winter. The majority of the video is spent making the point that the barriers to winter cycling are not due to the cold, and more due to the infrastructure for winter cycling not existing in most places.
Ebikes outselll electric cars, motorbikes, vans, busses and trucks combined.
I got one recently and it has been a real eye opener.
My 'normal' cycling pace is 10 miles an hour, this is usually not enough to keep up with traffic. Slowest speed limit is 20, everyone is overtaking you dangerously. I can only reach that speed briefly, before I start sweating and panting. If you are going uphill, wel...
So unless you are really fit, driving in traffic is a challenge
In UK legal limit for ebikes is 16 miles per hour, I wish it was 20, but on most roads that works and much fewer cars are overtaking you. This makes much safe experience, and gives confidence.
It is so efficient, charging it is basically free. It is so effortless, that using it in a big city is better than a car or public transport - you can go anywhere and dont need to think about parking.
All they need is some space and sensible laws.
We could literally solve 1/3 of the problem 'for free'.
Also most people dont know how to kit out a bike to carry stuff - you dont need a trailer or a cargo bike. I can fit 125 liters of good on my bike. 40 in the rear basket, 50 in rear panniers, 35 in the front panniers. The smaller supermarket trolly is usually 70 liters, the big one is 150.
You can also get a few straps and put really big items into the basket. It have transported large post boxes, chairs, vacuum cleaners, desktop computers, etc.
And there is a youtube video of a guy carrying a full-sized fridge on a bike, but that's a bit extreme.
> you can go anywhere and dont need to think about parking
I don't know where you are in the UK, but I don't agree with this in the general European case. I'd be very concerned with theft. I have a friend who almost got his ebike stolen while waiting in line in London. It was attached and everything, but apparently some dude went and came back with tools. He was lucky some passerby scared the thief away.
In Paris, where I live, I'd never leave a bike unattended in the street, either. It's the main reason why I don't ride around town on my own bike: if I'm not certain that I can keep it somewhere behind a locked door, I don't bother.
Depends where you live. I’ve read stories of people reporting the theft and bringing strong evidence as to where the bicycle was currently located. Some PDs cared and got the warrant to enter the premises, others couldn’t be bothered.
Make them bigger. You can easily fit 40 bikes into a truck. You can't fit 40 cars.
Thieves don't care much for the enforcement, it's property crime, so it's deprioritized. Burglary is the exceptions in terms of property crimes, because people _really_ care about being safe in their homes and will vote appropriately.
That relies on a functional and very-well-resourced police force.
We're in a world where an increasing number of crimes have essentially been decriminalised due to lack of police resources or due to politics, from minor drug offences to prolific shoplifting in certain parts of the world. Unfortunately, bike theft also seems to be one of those crimes that goes unpunished.
Bike theft will never be a priority, as bikes are low-value thefts (compared to cars, or house burglaries), and bike theives are unlikely to hurt anyone, whereas car thieves might be very dangerous, if it's joyriding kids.
I mean, if you take San Francisco for example, there were always old RVs parked under the 13th Street overpass, disassembling piles of bicycles.
SF police just don't care at all about property crime. If you have to report a property crime for insurance purposes, they'll blame you. IMO, this directly fuels more and higher levels of crime.
If you call them out specifically on bicycle theft, they'll just shrug and say that most bike owners don't record the frame serial number. If this is the case, state law should require that the serial number be submitted to a database upon purchase, but there are obviously incentives for bike shops to push back on this idea.
That said, if you want to get a GPS tracker, the options have exploded in the last few years. They're now available concealed within normal looking taillights, or in a tubular form that can be dropped down the seat tube or inserted inside the handlebar.
Filed under believe-but-cannot-prove: Unsolved crimes remain unsolved because they just don't care.
eg Rape kits go unprocessed.
eg Won't do a query geofence cell phone activity to catch a theft ring.
eg Preying on elderly is completely ignored, though would be trivial to investigate. (Money leaves a trail.)
Whereas it's no hold's barred for public protests (face id, sting ray for cells). Any heterodox group is infiltrated and subverted (agitprop, agent provocateurs).
--
There's got to be a better way.
I keep thinking of Robert Peel's 9 Policing Principles:
To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
To recognize always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
To recognize always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing cooperation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
To recognize always that the extent to which the cooperation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
To seek and preserve public favor, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humor, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public cooperation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
To recognize always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
To recognize always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
Besides police having better community involvement, I'm sure a lot of places that need more police also in general need more community. If your needs are being met it's far more likely that less crime will happen. I'm not sure how things like this can happen, but some areas like Japan have pulled it off both culturally and with some safety nets. Of course no place will truly ever be crime free.
Enforcement without registration seems difficult to me. But it might be effective to increase pressure on organized gangs that move bicycles across borders.
This is a big one I think. If a stolen good can be tracked, the police should be forced to go and retrieve it.
Heck, there was a story recently where a guy found where is stolen car was and the police refused to get it back for him. So he ended up resorting to vigilante justice with deadly consequences.
Maybe the only realistic option is secure, completely enclosed 'bike lockers' for bike parking in town centres, instead of creating such easy targets for kids with battery-powered angle grinders.
But people would complain about the ugliness of big metal boxes appearing everywhere.
We've actually had those in Paris. Didn't quite follow the subject so don't know the details, but for some reason they've decided to stop the scheme and tear them down.
They've got those at BART stations in the Bay Area. I don't remember the details but I believe you can even rent one so you're guaranteed a spot for your commute.
Is it really kids doing this? At least in my city it's very clearly organized. A day or so after it's been stolen it will have made it's way to somewhere in eastern europe.
Home contents policy usually cover theft outside the home up to 1–2k and you can get a rider if it’s too low. This usually include bicycles of any kind.
As for theft, there is little to no enforcement so it’s easy money for thieves.
However, there are things you can do to ensure the bicycle next to yours is stolen rather than yours. Look up the Sheldon brown locking technique which secured the frame and back wheel (the most expensive of the two) with a single ulock. There are also anti theft bolts that cost 20–30$/€/£ and will secure your saddle and quick release wheels. I use a kryptonite lock and thread the cable through the paniers handles so it’s annoying to steal as well. The battery has a key lock and I have an airtag in the bicycle. I remove the lights when parking and try to park in well lit busy areas or in underground parkings.
I was riding a regular bicycle in Canada for years, never got it stolen. Only once I made the mistake to park at Yonge and Dundas in Toronto late at night and some lowlife scum stole my airzound horn because it’s the only thing I hadn’t bolted down and it was the only bike on the rack… it’s worth 20$ but they took the time to unscrew it and steal it. But otherwise, nothing stolen because any other bicycle around was less hassle to steal parts or whole than mine and thus not worth the risk/time.
Many European countries still have very soft penalties for theft. Crime is increasing now from various groups so laws will have to catch up, but change is slow. People still think they're living in the culturally homogenous countries in which they grew up.
Agree! I am in the UK and have an electric bike, but I only use it for trips where I know I can safely store the bike and where I know the roads intimately. The UK needs to solve this, in addition to improving the safety of roads. There's too many pot holes, poor visibility due to people being allow to park pretty much anywhere, and not enough dedicated bike lanes.
Yeah I live in Oxford and bike theft is rampant. I like the idea of an ebike but I'm going to keep riding a piece of rubbish I won't be devastated by when it inevitably gets stolen.
A friend's motorbike was properly locked, parked closed to a police station in Cardiff, and it got stolen, she even got the watch the robbery afterwards in the police station as it was on tape via CCTV.
I live in a big city and it is the exact opposite.
In a car, you know you might find street parking and you know that there are multiple paid parking garages. It might be expensive but you'll find parking.
Outside of home, work, and maybe friends, there's nowhere you can go by bike, because there's nowhere you can leave it without it being stolen.
> you can go anywhere and dont need to think about parking.
I was visiting new Orleans recently, and they had signs on rod iron fences "no bike parking" as you ride into the French Quarter. Car street parking on both sides, lots of traffic and potholes, I saw one single loop bike "rack" in a mile. The city also has its own bike share, but its rules include parking in designated spots - would you believe very few in top pedestrian and tourist areas?
I see this in Atlanta too.
The scooters and lime bikes ran into this problem.. people complain of car traffic and bikes and scooters parked on sidewalks, cities even invest in a less profitable bike share program and a few racks - or temporary bike lanes, but they to have a car parking spot rather than parking for a dozen bikes in the same footprint for some reason.
It's a ux and public policy failure / money drain.
It is INSANE. These places are made for year-round biking. In Houston, you have the state legislature forbidding mass transit funding for Houston and tons of other sharply own-the-libs political grandstanding that has real impacts to the cities in Texas.
I've worked in Minneapolis which is a dream for biking... in the summer. I've visited Washington DC and its bikeshare program was perfect for seeing all the sights distributed around the city, and showed what ebikes and good urban infrastructure can do for city livability. Bikes shrink a city by a factor of 5 for doing anything.
Every city should be falling over themselves, ESPECIALLY with the covid-fuelled distributed work culture, to do this because it makes cities FAR BETTER than living in rural or suburban areas. It will increase property values, people living in the cities, increase exchange of goods and services.
The writing is on the wall for the ICE, the oil companies, and even the republicans in Texas. Hopefully the writing isn't on the wall for the human race in the process.
Yeah I went to a conference for a few years in Minnenapolis at the Walker. That bike road through the downtown core seemed amazing. It looked to me like they just took a road and said 'no more cars' right through the little 'Downtown West' core (I didn't really get a feel for the city geography generally so I might have that wrong). I wish more cities would do that. Just take a couple of streets in each direction of the grid and say 'no more cars' or maybe choke it down to one lane one way for cars with speed bumps for local pickup/delivery 'local access only'.
Was it lower than regular street level? If so, you’re talking about the Greenway which is a converted rail route. I believe making it a bike thoroughfare was (is?) intended as a temporary measure before a new light rail line was put in its place.
Quite nice to have a protected bike corridor that crosses the center of the city, that’s for sure.
it seemed that way, honestly it was like 8 years ago and i was mostly reacting to a flock of bicyclists riding down the middle of the street during the morning commute. It made me smile and I wished that Seattle could get it's shit together.
No the greenway is supposed to be permanent. The Light Rail was a huge battle and for ... some unknown reason ... they had to shut down a huge amount of it while they built the light rail (through a useless area that none of the residents want it going through, that they could have routed it through uptown where it would be useful...)
But none of the major bike infrastructure is slated for replacement by light rails.
What do you mean? Lack of safe parking is by far the largest pain point preventing me from biking everywhere. Even though my neighborhoods are generally very safe, bike theft is very high. I cycle 100+ miles a week for sport so I'd be happy to also be able to bike to most errands, but with the lack of safe bike parking nearly anywhere, that's not a reasonable option.
To commute to work, I can take a highway or I can take a series of backroads 4x the distance, with maybe 20% having bike lanes. It would be very dangerous to attempt to bike either route.
I'm driving a Leaf EV but would consider a smaller (2-seater / 1-seater) electric vehicle if they were sold and road legal in the US.
Are there any of those electric unicycles/monowheels, but with a battery that is not prone to incinerating everything in it's radius? Either LiFePO4, or a removable pack, or something similar. I'm often considering them because of distance, size and weight, comfort of a large diameter wheel and apparent safety (when driven at safe speed). But the thermal runaway failure mode is so scary that i dont even.
I agree that I'd like to see more LiFePO4 battery packs; but compared to an EV I'd much rather have this happen on an e-bike/monowheel I can just step off.
Agreed, I was more thinking about it happening in the apartment. I do not see me surviving such event, unleast the battery is being charged on the balcony (but even then). LiFePO4 failure, while not a picnic, at least can be proofed against.
Of course, it is the same with scooters and bikes, but there are a lot of bikes (and almost no scooters) with removable packs, so yeah. But compared to the unicycle, bike takes up half of a small apartment.
It’s a pity that the leading eBike brands like Van Moof and Cowboy are not available in Australia.
I believe part of the reason for the delay & resulting country exclusivity is due to needing a repair presence to support the bikes.
Speaking to an independent senior bike repairer, they told me that they’re unlikely to fix eBikes as they can be more complicated & once they touch a bike to repair the onus is on them to bring it to restore to a repaired state (ie if you pay for a repair and it’s not repaired then the fault will lay with them until corrected).
So unlike traditional bikes that largely are free & operate mechanically similarly, you’re more likely going to see a more electronic car-style repair model (eg where only Tesla are repairing Tesla cars) and a push to consolidation where the 3rd party bike manufacturers or parts (eg Bafang motors or no-name) will lose out to those who have a physical store & large network (Trek, Giant, etc).
I’d love someone’s opinion on this to validate or challenge the thinking here — as for now, it seems I’ll wait forever and never to get a Van Moof or Cowboy & importing seems a dead end since it wouldn’t be repairable by any local repairer.
I was about to say get a Bafang too. Put it on a normal, better old, bike.
They are indestructible. And all other parts are standard and cheap. You need some bike mechanics skills, and a little understanding in connecting electric components. But all is well documented on the web.
The torque sensor in the tongsheng makes the battery go further with less perceived effort and is just generally nicer to use. Hitting 25km/h feels like less of a wall.
I can go 75–90km on one charge with the open source firmware and a 850Wh battery. And you can service the bike yourself because it’s all standard parts (and you had to put it together yourself in the first place!)
You can also use any generic battery or build your own.
Standardization is key to this, I think. Any device that cracks the 'fits all bicycles' electrification nut, is going to grow.
Same goes for some startup that comes up with a way to convert existing petro-cars into electro-cars, i.e. hub motors, super-capacity, etc.
It makes all the sense in the world to me that electric revolution/evolution is happening in the e-bicycle (and to some extent e-motorbike) classes of transportation.
Bicycles, generally, are an area where we have always seen how important it is to have standards...
What makes these brands leading in your opinion? From a tech and design perspective I get the appeal that VanMoof and Cowboy have, I've wanted one for years because of that. But in doing research I've also read a tonne of horror stories about random failures and reliability issues where repairs mean shipping it back to Cowboy/VanMoof, waiting weeks or months and then getting your bike back only to do it all over again a short while later.
For a bike the traditional brands that use of the shelf parts like Bosch and Shimano still have the advantage in my opinion, especially if you don't live close to a dealer/repairshop that can handle it.
Edit: What's also putting me of from both VanMoof and Cowboy is their rocky financial history. Last month Cowboy secured funding, but it was looking sketchy for a bit. I wonder what would happen to all those cloud features from Cowboy if the company goes under.
Both Van Moof and Cowboy are losing money too, both of them have been close to running out of runway, who knows if they'll survive in the long run. As for maintenance, the main critique on Van Moof is that almost everything on the bike is a custom made component, I'm sure it's a similar story for Cowboys. So even if you took it to a generic repair shop, they wouldn't be able to get parts that fit.
When my Van Moof broke, I had to ship it to Amsterdam for repairs, it took three weeks. My friends with Cowboys generally get faster service because they have the Tesla model of sending a repair person out to you. Other friends with bikes that have generic Bosch and Shimano parts seem to fare better, they can walk into your average bike shop and they're able to take care of it.
I got into Boosted Board electric skateboards early on, and if their story is anything to go by, these more lifestyle oriented brands tend to not fare so well once the market matures and you're better off with your Bafang/Bosch bike, instead of an expensive brick.
as an owner of a Van Moof I think they had their moment, but now it's time for the company to go bankrupt. They have made too many mistakes, and focus on the wrong things, so it is time for some darwinian pruning.
Let me explain: they were early to introduce a cheap e-bike with a nice design (the S3 came in at €2o00 + €400 3 year service). Cheap is of course relative,but at the time most reputable brand ugly as hell bikes sold for €3000+.
Where they went wrong is that they took minimalism too far. The combination of automatic shifting (and there are no buttons), absence of a pedalling force sensor (cause cheap) and an internal gear hub (can't really shift under load) is basically a recipe for disaster. Combine that with general lack of QA and all of a sudden you have a company burdened by it's repair costs almost to the level of bankruptcy...
Odd, I thought repairs were supposed to be the business model? Get folks hooked on a cool ebike witha bunch of proprietary parts they can't fix themselves. Force them to pay you ongoing fees to tune up and repair the bikes. Bike-as-a-Service.
Hilarious to think that the decision to make their devices unrepairable is actually bankrupting them. But also very sad to think that many of those bikes are destined to become ewaste once the company folds and nobody can repair them.
I bought an electric bike online... engine failures... wheel sending and returning fir repairs... 4 months... ended up pedalling the 15 daily km. Totally doable! Just needed time to adjust.
I'd love to see recumbent e-trikes with lights, turn signals, and sufficient composite cover to be a viable commute option regardless of rain or freezing temperature. With assisted pedalling it should be possible to maintain comfortable temperature for a good while if the insulation is done right.
So too wide for bike lanes and cycleways, but too low and slow to share lanes with cars, and with impaired visibility from the cover? Sounds really dangerous. The thing that makes my e-bike safe in traffic is that I'm high up to see and be seen, and I can avoid being in traffic most of the time thanks to bike lanes and cycleways.
The space required to safely operate a bicycle is not equal to the width of the vehicle in the first place. The article, in its second paragraph already mentions cargo bikes which often have the tri-wheel configuration.
In Sweden you can get government support when buying E-Bikes, 25% of up to 1000 euro. Some smaller electric scooters falls under the same category. E-Bikes are still rather expensive though.
But, and there are buts, E-Bikes are heavy so you can't bring them up home, on the other hand they are more prone to theft due to their price. E-Bikes can also be more dangerous compared to other alternatives, some models use standard bikes equipped with an added motor- those are not stable and have sub standard brakes. The better quality ones are better but they allow untrained people to reach speeds they were not trained for, sometimes without proper safety equipment.
E-bikes are great. I rode one to the office today, and when the weather is nice I consider my e-bike commute to be one the highlights of my day. There are a few things I disagree with in this article, though.
> “An e-bike is a car trip replacer,” Cherry said, “but an e-cargo bike is a car replacer. An e-cargo bike offers a chance to do just about anything that most Americans need a car to do, like school runs, grocery runs, and so on.”
I don't really agree with this. Cars are faster, can go further, they haul more, and they are comfortable to ride in any weather conditions. While I think that some people could make do with an e-bike instead of a car (or maybe one less car for a family), replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices that I don't see the averge American being willing to make.
And in my case, as someone who enjoys riding a bike and is even willing to do it in the rain, I don't see it as replacing a car trip but rather a bus trip. For the three months of the year when it snows and it's not safe/possible to ride a bike to the office, I ride a bus instead (I would prefer to drive my car, but parking is too expensive/inconvenient).
> Even more baffling, Congress chose to make any e-bike costing over $4,000 ineligible for a credit, eliminating almost all e-cargo bikes.
A quick google search turns up lots of cargo e-bikes for less than $4,000. [1]
> And even with the motor providing some of the muscle, the cyclist will receive a surprisingly good workout.
I wouldn't really call it a "workout". I find it to be about the same amount of exertion as walking (at a fairly leisurely pace). So definitely better than driving, and for sedentary people it might provide some meaningful benefit. But I have actually been considering switching to a regular bike for commuting just for the added exercise.
>replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices
I never got that argument. And some drivers are really passionate about what their cars can do that bikes can't.
It's not about replacing cars, but just about having an additional vehicle that you can choose in the morning.
Boeing's most popular plane was the 737, a lightweight and operationally convenient plane.
But airlines were never told to replace their 747s or 777s with 737s ! And they never replaced 737s with the 787 because the Dreamliner can do more !
You can own an ebike to go to work or to the bakery, and still have a car to go across the state, to go shopping, or to drive when you don't want to ride your bike.
It still saves money, fuel, and the environment, in the end.
People in Finland bike everyday during winter in the snow, there's nothing really stopping you from doing the same except for winterproofing your bike (proper winter tyres basically).
I don't get that argument, if an e-bike can replace 60-70% of the trips people would use a car for, it's a very compelling car alternative.
> replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices that I don't see the averge American being willing to make.
Maybe the issue is the American lifestyle, not e-bikes.
> People in Finland bike everyday during winter in the snow, there's nothing really stopping you from doing the same
Finland gets significantly less snowfall than we do here in winter (Oulu gets like 1/6 the snow that we get less in January, for example), and it is much colder and drier there which makes for better cycling conditions.
> “Sure, it is easier here than in the south," he said. "-15℃ is much better to cycle in than sleet.” From November to the beginning of April, temperatures usually stay below freezing, with average temperatures in January and February below -10℃.“ This makes for pretty good circumstances,” Vaarala noted, adding that salt is not used on Oulu's streets. Instead, ploughs only clear away the uppermost layer of snow. “The thin layer of remaining snow on the ground gets packed when people cycle on it, and thanks to the snow, you will get a quite good grip.” Simola, who cycles daily, agreed, saying that pedalling on the snow can be even more comfortable than on the bare asphalt.[1]
They also spend a sigificant amount to keep bike lanes clear of snow, which my city does not (they spend a significant portion of their budget already just trying to keep roads passable for cars/trucks). And even then, cycling rates in Finland drop significantly in the winter (from 20% of all trips to 10%), so a lot of people must be choosing not to cycle in the winter.
Basically Finland benefits from a rather unique set of geographical and cultural circumstances, and I don't think what works for them would work everywhere.
This reminded me of a video I saw recently about the Bahamas, whose capital (Nassau) is a small island (~1 hour across via a bike), with near-perfect weather (all-year sunshine, but not too hot, rainfall mostly in the summer), no hills, perfect conditions for biking, right?
In spite of the above almost everyone has a car. Public transport is almost non-existent, and bicycles are rare (and of course, there is no bike infrastructure).
It is really not about the weather, it is about the mindset.
Are the jitneys gone? That was as close to public transit as they had in Nassau when I was there ages ago.
For a couple Bahamian dollars, you could get almost anywhere. Granted, you got to see how the poor people lived, but it was certainly interesting. And it was fun yelling "bus stop" when you wanted to get off.
>[Finland] also spends a sigificant amount to keep bike lanes clear of snow
Lol, I wish. They just sprinkle some gravel down over the snow and call it a day. Also, I disagree with the parent comment that a lot of people bike here during the winter. It's maybe 1% of the amount of people who bike during the rest of the year.
I was thinking more specifically about Oulu, which was featured recently in a viral YouTube video about winter cycling [1]. They do seem to have a pretty well-maintained network of bike paths in winter (though admittedly I have never been so I am only going by things I have seen or read). Apologies for generalizing about all of Finland!
I would recommend you come and visit the US in one of our lovely suburbs where simple trips to the grocery store often have you driving 70 mph on a four lane highway loaded with large SUVS, pickup trucks, and 18-wheelers.
You may not agree with it, but when people realize they can have an extra 10 grant a year post-tax by using a cargo bike instead of a car they might be persuaded. We'd need to fix the car-choked misery of American cities though.
I'm American and I intend to do this, but it's only made feasible by moving to the Netherlands, which is much better designed.
> when people realize they can have an extra 10 grant a year post-tax by using a cargo bike instead of a car they might be persuaded.
Sure, some people might. And every little bit helps.
But car ownership rates in the US are actually increasing in recent years, despite the fact that cars are getting more expensive to own. And cars keep getting bigger, too. I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect large numbers of Americans to trade in their SUVs and pickup trucks for tiny little e-bikes.
We need to quit thinking trade the car for a bike and start thinking use the bike for a few trips.
I live near a major bike path. Every bar along it has a lot of bike parking ,but none of the other stores and restaurants have any at all, not even the bike shop. Many people drive their bike to the bike trail instead of riding.
How do we get people to ride their bikes to get groceries? They could also ride to church on Sunday, or other similar activities. These little trips need to be tackled before we think about getting rid of cars.
> when people realize they can have an extra 10 grant a year post-tax by using a cargo bike instead of a car
The only people spending $10K/year on their car want to. The kind of folks who would be most swayed by a financial argument manage to spend much less. On top of that, your analysis is one-sided. What would be the going rate for additional daylight hours if I could sell them on the open market?
Once you account for the initial purchase price, insurance, fuel, maintenance, and parking, $10K/year on average is probably an underestimate.
That doesn't even account for increased costs created by auto-centric development, which incentivizes sprawl and makes housing more expensive (eliminating parking minimums can cut monthly rents by $250 per unit because you can fit in a lot more units), roads more expensive, and even simple things like eating out at a restaurant more expensive because you're still paying for all that parking, even if it's baked into the purchase price.
It is certainly possible to have a car for only a few grand a year by buying used cars and doing your own maintenance and repairs on your own, but that comes with the compromise of decreased reliability, and most Americans need a reliable car. My own costs are probably around $5K a year because I drive a 20-year-old diesel VW Jetta, but I also don't need a car on a day-to-day basis because I bike to work.
Yes there is a bit more discomfort in rain or snow, but it gives you a workout, is trivial to park, and is practically free to own/operate.
I service my own bike and it costs me maaaaybe 150$ a year if I’m being generous. The bicycle cost around 2000$ to put together (ebike) counting all the tools I didn’t have.
A car otoh would easily cost 200–300$/month just for existing (parking at home, taxes, and insurance). Never mind gas, traffic fines, parking at destination, maintenance, and the lack of exercise using one involves. Or the pollution and space it takes up.
I also got a 300$ trailer that can haul 90 lbs (iirc), I’ve used it for Costco style groceries, ikea furniture transport and the hill to go back home is about 8% grade. No sweat with the torque sensing ebike.
E-bikes have been in China for forever now, and I see them as..maybe a bit cheap and flimsy, what you get if your locality has banned gas scooters/cycles and you can’t afford a car. You’ll see some guy collecting recycling with a cargo e bike stacked up 9 or so feet high, it’s quite amazing what can be done with them, but they would never be considered car or truck replacements.
Of course, in the developed world, bikes are more luxury things, so the market for e-bikes is completely different.
For adult transportation in the US a bike is seen as you had a DWI and lost your license. There are a few fanatics who also ride to work that are changing the reputation, but if you are not a fanatic you had a DWI. Normal people don't bike to work.
I'm pretty sure. Biking culture is a big thing in west coast cities for sure, northern affluent cities also. There is also the perception of a lot of snobbery around it.
I've owned two Vespa style ebikes in the past 5 years.
First one had the steering column snapped after someone crashed into it in the winter (and didn't tell me)...
Second one got straight up stolen out of my parking lot... as much as I would like to get a new one, I guess I'm not allowed to have nice things in this city.
I would say that the best compromise is an electric maxi-scooter (like the ICE equivalent, not the push board with handlebars). Takes the same space in traffic and parking as a bicycle, but has:
- better safety: lower center of gravity, better brakes, better suspension, better headlight, brake light, turn signals, hazard lights
- significant weather protection
- passenger accommodation (can have handles, back rest)
- significant storage under the seat, can also mount top box
- more space for batteries and thus range and speed
- harder physically to steal, also requires registration
I believe unicycles are a better fit for urban mobility (I am talking about proper, mainline EUCs, not the Onewheel bastardization of the technology).
You can easily use them together with public transit systems, while e-bikes are quite unwieldy. The have better maneuverability and responsiveness. They do not require any parking spots and can be easily taken to an office.
They are a bit more dangerous than e-bikes, but with proper protective gear and improvements in the technology (chances of mechanical or electrical troubles are very low, if you don't intentionally push hardware to the limit) the difference is quite small. Also, they are somewhat harder to learn to ride, which hurts their popularity.
1) Even being unaccustomed to riding unicycles most people can easily ride in 5-10 km range without any significant discomfort. It's usually enough when combined with public transport (I am talking about Europe, in the US it may not be so). For more experienced users 20-30 km easily falls into comfortable range.
2) "Sittable" EUC models do exist. Though usually they are higher end models and there are some caveats with riding EUC in such way.
I love my e-bike. I can cycle along the canal to the nearest town in one direction and the next village in the other. I can easily climb the hills that surround my home and I can get up on the hill tops to get away from it all and decompress.
There are roads with few cars weaving the countryside so I don’t find it too stressful. And the canal, while slower, is much nicer than the road that is adjacent.
I wish I could sustain 15mph on the roads but the massive potholes make it too dangerous. But traveling slow has its benefits too.
Admittedly fairly often I do miss having a car but I just rent one when I really need one
11 months ago I bought myself an ebike and since then that's pretty much the only way I commute. It's 12.5km from home to office, so 25km per day, about 75% of the time (25% remotely). Year round, in Helsinki Finland. So snow, freezing temps many months per year. And rain. I have two kids; one at daycare, one goes to school. Every day I either take younger to daycare of pick her up. Yesterday trip meter crossed 4000km, pretty much only from commuting.
My 12.5km commute takes 33 minutes when there isn't snow on the ground. During winter it takes few minutes longer.
Weather is not an issue. I wear normal office clothes, so typically jeans and shirt. If it's raining, I wear gore-tex jacket and pants on top of office clothes. If it's raining heavily, I put gore-tex mittens and shoe covers. Those hard-shell clothes are always in my pannier bag, because you never know when the forecast is wrong. Also when it's cold, the same shell pants and jacket goes on top of office clothes. If it's really cold, I wear fleece jacket or merino wool hoodie underneath the gore-tex jacket. When temps drop below -10C, I put some long johns underneath jeans and also wear ski goggles.
I'm never wet when arriving no matter how hard it rains. I'm not sweaty, so no need for shower. The only downside is that during the first 6 months, I lost 6kg, so had to buy new clothes.
These are the clothes I wear on top of my office clothes:
and all those are year round in my rear pannier https://www.ortlieb.com/en_us/twin-city-urban+F8102 if I'm not wearing those. Rear pannier also carries my laptop and other work related equipment, mostly mobile phones needed for development/testing.
Bike commuting is fun, relaxing, healthy and fast enough for trips roughly under 15km. Weather does not matter. If you live in part of the world where it snows, bike path maintenance might be the dealbreaker. Also, if there isn't a viable bike route at all (pretty typical in many parts of the U.S.), then surely bike commuting is hard.
EDIT: Oh, almost forgot, merino wool buff during winter months is really nice.
Because in Europe ebikes are bikes with assistive motor, so you need to pedal and the motor just assists. So there is no throttle. And pedaling, even when it is easy, is an activity which consumes calories.
Another clarification... many of the higher-end e-bikes act as a power multiplier. If you put 100W into the pedals, you get 200W at the wheels (roughly). To go ~20mph, you're putting in ~15mph worth of effort. For my wife and I, that means she can keep up with me with a similar perceived exertion, which is really nice.
Some of the less expensive e-bikes just have a dumb switch on the pedal to meet legal requirements. You can barely pedal at all and the motor will accelerate to 20mph (or faster). And some have a throttle that bypasses the pedals completely (typically not allowed on bike trails/lanes, though hard to enforce).
"cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
So, vehicles which do not require user to pedal, are not electric bicycles. Those are something else. Yes, it is legal to drive such vehicles, but those are not ebikes. Typically those vehicles require you to have an insurance, possibly type approval and maybe even drivers license, depending how fast they go and how powerful the motor is.
The very same limitations mentioned in the directive are in effect also in Germany. Bicycles with assistive motors up to 0.25 (nominal) kW and max assistive speed of 25km/h are effectively bicycles from law point of view. If the motor has more power and/or the max assistive speed is >25<45km/h, it's speed pedelec, not an electric bicycle. If the motor works without the rider pedaling at all, then it's a moped. The only difference here is that electric bicycles are in Germany called pedelec when pretty much rest of the world calls them ebikes.
I love my ebike too, and I have a similar commute and routine with the kids. That said, in summer time in Denmark, I get sweaty. So I need to wear cooler gear and I often need a shower when I get to work. It definitely adds time to the commute so it's not all roses.
Do you have some special winter tires or something? I also live in Helsinki, and would never bike in the winter since every path is packed ice and a thin layer of gravel. I slip enough just walking.
In my city there's very little point in having an expensive bike (like all electric ones are) because you are either limited to only going places where you can stay with the bike (parks, etc) or it will inevitably be stolen. Any bike over a 1000 is guaranteed to be stolen no matter the amount of locks or cameras. Police in my city has an online form you can use to to report it to get the case number so you can claim on your insurance but they do not prosecute or investigate bike theft as policy.
Yeah this seems like a big problem especially for e-bikes. I get that law enforcement can't really prioritize it because it seems impractical to investigate.
Couldn't we solve this by embedding geo trackers in the bikes? That should make it much easier to catch thieves and make theft much less appealing.
It could also be partially solved by flooding the city with cheap alternatives, like electric bikes that anyone can afford to rent on demand.
This was a big reason I got a folding bike. My Brompton never gets locked up outside - It fits inside a shopping cart so I even keep it with me when I'm getting groceries.
I keep seeing replies like this. Insurance is not the point. Come to Venice Beach in Los Angeles and you'll quickly understand that you'll be calling the insurance company once every couple days to replace your bike if you leave it locked up outside for more than a few minutes at a time.
Around here bike theft is a sport. If they can't get the entire bike, they'll strip every single part off the frame in under 5 minutes.
On top of that, I have quite the emotional attachment to my bike. It means something to me. A cash payout doesn't replace what was lost if it were to be stolen.
Bike insurance is a nice consolation prize if you get ripped off, but it's absolutely in no way a viable solution to the problem of widespread, organized bike theft.
What we really need is ebike standards for the components. You should be able to use motors, batteries and contollers from any brand interchangeably on your bike.
It is atrocious that you buy a bike worth an decent used car and you cant't expect the electric motor last more than a few thousand kilometers [1], after which you have a broken black box of an motor in you hands that you need to replace, not fix. Which, if you are out of warranty costs close to a thousand bucks. And it is a damn 250w electric motor.
> You should be able to use motors, batteries and contollers from any brand interchangeably on your bike.
There is no way this (one standard for everything) will happen, because it doesn't work like this either in the car industry or in the bike industry. That said, the number of standards in bike industry is somehow manageable I think, and for some bike types (like road bikes) you can build a completely standard bike with every component easily interchangeable. However this is not the case for the motors and batteries. The price of the components is a different issue still.
> because it doesn't work like this either in the car industry or in the bike industry
This is... not entirely true, there's heaps of standardized components in both industries. Think batteries, brake pads / brakes, springs, all the nuts and bolts, the OBD port, tires/wheels, airbags / seatbelts, and on the bike side, think cables, saddles (saddle pins), tires/wheels again, gears, pedals, etc etc.
While you probably can't fully repair one car with the other, there's plenty that has been standardized by the industry and legislation.
Yeah but there are several standards for each component.
Like for bikes (which I understand more) there are the 622mm wheels (700c - 28" but also 29" which is confusingly the same rim diameter but wider rim), 635mm wheels, and then 26", 27.5", 24", 20" and some smaller ones. Not sure what size wheels are used on fat bikes... And then you have QR axles and thru-axles in 100mm, 130mm, 135mm, 142mm and 148mm sizes and some other and usually 15mm or 12mm diameters (except the QRs that are 5 or 9mm). Equipped with either rim or disc brakes, for each brake type the rear (and sometimes front too) axle size will probably be different. Then the rear wheel has a freewheel on which the cassette is fastened unless you use a internal gear hub (like Rohloff).. so the freewheel is one of I think 2-3 different Sram types, 2-3 Shimano ones, 1-2 Campagnolo and maybe some other. And so on. So there are certainly standards. Lots of them.
Many standards would be fine (and to be clear, very much needed). They just would need to be open so that a third party manufacturer can build a motor or a battery that they can just plug in to the system.
Yes that would be great, but instead what is happenning is that with each new electronic component the system is closed down further. With the increasing popularity of wireless shifting (Di2/eTap) and e-bikes this will only get worse I'm afraid. I don't even know if we can realistically hope for some sensible regulation.
We don't need every part to work in every bike, but we do need a few parts like the small-block Chevy V8: reliable, well-built, and reasonably easy to kludge into just about any donor vehicle.
Are Bafang kits still a good deal for bike conversions?
Wheel and bottom-bracket mount mid drive motors are quite standard.
Companies like Bafang and Tongsheng (not just these) sell motors that can go on any normal frame or in any normal (sufficiently strong) wheel and are compatible with standard drivetrain components. They accept and 36V or 48V (or anything 24-56V with some software tweaking and possibly lower power) power source.
It is not too late to have standards here, we just have to stop buying the shimano, bosch and yamaha nonsense (even if they are technically a little better right now).
Same for electric cars and err... pretty much everything for that matter. Bike parts are pretty standardized for the most part, things like tires, cables, handles and gear shifters.
But it's BiG gOvErNmEnT and some people object to that.
Bike parts are, afaik, not standardized at all. It's just that there are like two companies producing 90% of the components, so that there aren't so many different systems on the market.
> Bike parts are, afaik, not standardized at all. It's just that there are like two companies producing 90% of the components, so that there aren't so many different systems on the market.
Both of these statements aren't really true.
There are lots of bike standards (both in the XKCD sense and sometimes in a few-enough-to-be-practical sense). Not everything is made with standard parts, but the majority of parts on the majority of bikes are. This has little to do with Shimano/SRAM being the two major groupset manufacturers -- components like steerers (standard 1-1/8" at the stem), stems (made by several manufacturers, not two), handlebars (there are several standards for the clamp diameter but 31.8mm and 35mm are probably the dominant two today), bottom brackets (again, several standards, but lots of vendors in this space), etc etc. Handlebars, wheels, chains, pedals, tires are more or less all made to a handful of interchangeable standards, by many manufacturers.
That’s the reason why I built my ebike around a regular bicycle and an tsdz2 motor. It even has a FOSS firmware written by a very dedicated guy in Portugal. You can use a variety of displays with it, any battery pretty much, standard bicycle parts of course because it’s just whatever bicycle you started off with, and last I checked there was even a project to build a Garmin interface.
On the downside, it’s more work, you have to repair the motor yourself when it breaks, and it’s peak Chinese engineering where tolerances can be quite approximate along with barely good enough materials. But it’s also part of the fun (for me) and I’ve put 2700km on it in three years of (very hilly) terrain; still works well.
The gist is to get a semi recent hybrid or mountain bike (because they have standard bottom brackets) and swap it for the motor.
The battery mounts on the frame where the water bottle typically goes. To flash the firmware you’ll need to build a cable with a STM bluepill.
I wanted a quality battery that wouldn’t start a fire so I got mine from em3ev but if you like gambling it will also work with any Chinese special from aliexpress or eBay or whatever.
The 48V motor will also work with a 52V battery (that’s what I use) after flashing it to open source.
It’s not super difficult and you’ll learn how to maintain bicycles in the process. If you’ve never done it before, take your time and ask questions on the endless sphere thread. Checkout YouTube videos as well for anything you’re unsure about, you’re bound to find a good howto from channels like park tool or syd fixes bikes.
Also note that several us and Canadian cities have community bike workshops where they’ll help you do anything to your bicycle by explaining you how to do it and letting you use their tools to do it. I knew nothing about bicycles but after going there regularly to rebuild my first acoustic bike, I’m now very comfortable doing almost anything myself at home on my own (with YT or the blue book of bicycle repair as a reference)
It’s fun and very rewarding, I strongly encourage you to give it a go!
Absolutely not. There has been so much innovation and improvement in batteries and motors in the past 5 years. Some kind of interoperability regulation would have completely wrecked that.
Coyld you elaborate what development happened in the last 5 years that would not have happened if it was required that your battery/motor fits into one of handful standard brackets and talks (at least) standard messages?
I did google that. Seems like a few people complaining about lemons or not realizing a bike needs maintainance (chain/cassette swaps etc) and otherwise basically fine? In any case that's an eMTB part so you'd expect more trouble than something regular, just like how MTBs are way higher maintainance than road in every way.
Your general point is good but it sounds like you had a bad experience and are generalizing. And how would you already be out of warranty after a few thousand km, doesn't add up.
Shimano warranty is 2 years. I'm close to a small rental operation, and they had 3 out of eight motors blown within the first 2 years. 1500-6000 km on the odo.
I'm not sure that's practical, but I think there are certain regulatory things one could do. Like requiring that especially ebike motors can be repaired, that parts are available and fairly priced, that any software needed to service bikes is made available to repair shops at decent prices etc.
I don't think you really want heavily standardized components across brands since it limits innovation and forces lowest common denominator solutions. You want repairability.
I choose cars, motorcycles, ebikes based on whether there is a decent repair shop nearby. Because stuff will wear out and break. You will have to get work done. And when that happens you want someone who makes an honest effort rather than some junior mechanic who will just follow the standard repair procedure no matter what. (Don't get me started on how poorly qualified brand-affiliated car workshops often are)
Nahhh, the electric vehicles we need are these low-cost, low-center-of-gravity, not so easy to steal, with a registration plate number that identifies them, e-scooters [1]
Bikes are for people who wanna bike, like skateboards are for people who wanna skateboard (there are electric skateboards already), but if we want to improve mobility in cities we should make it easy and convenient for people to switch, the people buying e-bikes are not your regular commuter and other "vehicles" such as e-scooters (the skateboards with handlebars) are just a fad, they are toys for grown-ups and are being banned all over Europe, especially in big cities: see Paris [2] - before someone brings up corruption and lame politicians lobbied by the fuel industry, people have voted to ban them because they are a disgrace if you happen to live in a touristic city. I live in Rome, I understand the pain and I can't wait they ban them here as well.
> Bikes, E-Bikes, scooters can coexist just fine on the same infrastructure.
Yeah, but that's not what the headline says.
So I don't understand why you're telling it to me.
E-bikes are not replacing cars, they are replacing bikes, for people who already used bikes, so only e-bikes sellers and manufacturers "need" them.
Meanwhile there are over 400 thousand two wheeled vehicles with an ice engine, albeit small, but still..., running in Rome everyday that could be easily replaced by e-mopeds and e-motorbikes that would actually make a difference air quality wise.
Bikes are not making a dent in it, believe me.
> The blocking of scooters in Europe is often dumb and motivated by argument that somehow don't apply to equally apply to cars.
Are you saying people from Paris don't know what they want?
Cars at at least are useful for something.
And pay a lot of taxes, billions of euros every year.
> The reality is all these things are better then cars
So why people still prefer cars and are making electric cars?
It's funny that "THE MARKET" is right only when it bothers someone else.
> For a city like Rome with lots of tight spaces it makes some more sense,
It is clear that you don't know Rome, tight spaces in Rome are the minority, maybe you've been to Trastevere one time and believe that's how Rome is built (spoiler: it's not), and don't know what people are complaining about.
You'd be better off by asking when you don't understand something (even though a lot of the reasons are highlighted in the article I posted about Paris)
Scooters are used mainly by American tourists to try'n'kill themselves because they don't understand that other people actually live in Rome and it's not a theme park, like Disneyland. And that there are holes in our streets and you shouldn't run on them at night, drunk, you and your drunk girlfriend, they are for one person only, where the lane for buses is, in the wrong direction. And then abandon them in front of the door of a house, an hotel or a shop or even better throwing them on a sidewalk blocking disabled people.
e-mopeds have plates, you can fine people using them the wrong way.
it is a fundamental part of trying to keep other road users safe.
Including me, that walk all the time in Rome, because I love its very wide spaces.
1 - bikes are already great, really cheap, and actually good for you to cycle. We also have an obesity problem in most western countries.
2 - they let inexperienced riders go really fast on bikes that are 3 x heavier. You see so many idiots cycling though red lights at 15mph weaving in and out of pedestrians. If you want to go that speed on a regular bike you have to earn that speed by cycling for many years
1) In order to get more people on bikes in most of the world, we either need massive policy changes and infrastructure rework (like much of Netherland has been doing since about 1970 or so) or better bikes. Personally I'm always voting for both, but the first option does not seem possible in most parts. Ebikes might just be enough for many to make the switch easier.
2) Roughly speaking anyone without health issues can ride any bike 15mph. Also, the weight of the bike does not matter that much, as it is anyway way lighter than the rider. 25 pound normal bike vs 55 pound ebike does not make much of a difference given a 180 pound rider.
> Without ebikes, only fit bike enthusiasts ride on the roads
I've rode bikes for transportation in the US for over a decade now, and I can't agree. My average speed is around 12 mph. That's a bit faster than what you say your speed is in another comment. But it's still much slower than typical motorized vehicle speeds. I don't need to keep up with traffic, just make sure that they drive safely around me.
> Or if you are going uphill and you are concious you arr holding up all trafic
That's not your problem. In most jurisdictions (in the US, at least), the roads are first come, first served. Don't slow people down more than necessary, of course, but don't worry about it if it's unavoidable. I personally avoid these situations by taking longer routes that have less traffic, and not riding when traffic is heavy or waiting if there's a temporary increase in traffic.
> If you are going slowly on narrow UK road you get overtaken by double-decker bus with 2 inches of clearence. It's a harrowing experience.
If the lane's not wide enough to share, don't share. Taking the lane as appropriate has greatly improved my safety on the road. I usually ride to the right, but I'll take the lane when necessary for my safety and refuse to apologize for it.
Cycling in North America is terrifying. Many drivers feel like you re not allowed to use the road and will negligently (or actively) try to kill you because they can and because murder by car is frowned upon but very lightly punished if at all.
I’m saying this as someone who has ridden a bicycle in traffic almost daily for years in Montreal and Toronto. It takes nerves of steel and that’s very wrong, but it’s the reality.
Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used. Or threaten physical harm using their car as a weapon just because you dare make them arrive 15 seconds later at the next red light.
I live in a much more civilized country now where it isn’t open season on cyclists and don’t miss it one bit.
I fully agree that riding a bike in North America can be terrifying. I was responding to someone who seemed to think that cyclists need to keep up with traffic to improve safety, which I don't agree with. A fast cyclist and someone riding an ebike are still much slower than most motor vehicles. I offered several better solutions for getting respect on the road.
> Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used.
This hasn't been my experience. I regularly take the lane and this seems to have significantly reduced close passes vs. riding far to the right when there isn't enough space. I get passed closely maybe once per week on my current commute, which is over 10 miles long and is mostly suburban.
Can you step back and recognize that your experience doesn't matter in discussions like this? That, if anything, it's detrimental when you use it to try to solution-engineer concerns that you don't understand?
>I live in a much more civilized country now where it isn’t open season on cyclists and don't miss it one bit.
Yep, me too.
Cycling is commonplace, there's no guns, no toxic Christian-nationalist politics, society is pretty stable, public transit is excellent, people are polite, life is good here. Moving out of America did wonders for my mental health.
I'm a vehicular cyclist too. "that's not your problem" is technically true but not helpful. Being able to maintain your speed uphill and avoid being overtaken is helpful.
"Just take a longer route" Sure I'll take a side street when possible to avoid a main street, but often there's no reasonable alternative to a street with cars going fast.
The things you're suggesting for bikes work on ebikes just as well. You're fit, and have the confidence that years of experience brought.
"Take the lane" is good advice but you must not be around other vehicles if you don't have cars making close passes. It makes you more visible and most drivers fully change lanes to pass but I still find drivers who won't. They'll take the edge of my lane and pass close. Being able to maintain speed can mean fewer overtakings.
It takes a lot of confidence to be a vehicular cyclist. Ebikes boost the rider's power and confidence.
>"Take the lane" is good advice but you must not be around other vehicles if you don't have cars making close passes.
idk where you are but it's illegal for cars to make close (defined as <1.5 metres clearance) passes here. you can get the driver fined severely if you catch them on film doing it. you shouldn't tolerate it just because drivers think they're entitled to do it.
It's technically illegal here but official enforcement is non-existent. There are civil court options but it's a lot of work. You don't just file a police report. You have to track down the driver's details and have evidence they intended to cause, or actually have caused, physical harm. I've never tried because in most cases it feels like it's not road rage, the driver didn't intend to cause harm, they're just a terrible driver. Legally, it seems a certain amount of harassment is kinda legal :( After close passes, I've caught up to drivers and politely asked them to please change lanes to pass. They're usually confused or embarrassed tho one got mad.
> If the lane's not wide enough to share, don't share
You're suggesting it's the cyclist in the wrong if they stay close to the road edge, but a wider-than-average vehicle then passes them without leaving a decent gap? The vast majority of drivers do leave enough space and I'm happy to ensure they can pass safely by using no more of the road than is necessary. The sort of drivers that don't are going to be unpleasant/dangerous to share the road with no matter how determinedly you "hold the lane". The worst offenders are cars towing wide trailers/ caravans - they often seem to be entirely unaware of how much road they take up.
My point is that if there isn't enough space, some drivers will try to squeeze through. Taking the lane when there isn't enough space to prevent drivers from trying to squeeze through is logical, and it works in my experience. A driver will have to wait behind me or switch lanes, rather than pass me too closely. Anecdotally, I find that when I ride down the center of the lane, drivers are much more likely to completely switch lanes (giving me plenty of space) rather than straddle two lanes (passing me too closely in the process).
If there's enough space, I don't take the lane.
Also: Cyclists aren't "in the wrong" when drivers pass them dangerously. That's 100% on the drivers. My approach is about encouraging drivers to pass safely, not passing judgement.
Euro style ebikes are severely limited in power and speed. The motor stops at 25 km/h. They help a lot climbing hill, but on top of that they make restarting after stopping at a red lights much less taxing and thus encourage riders to respect those.
May I please have your permission to continue enjoying my e-bike? At my advanced age and with my sore old knees, my Tern e-bike allows me to get up and over hills and make longer trips that just aren't possible for me any more with my non-e-bike.
>1 - bikes are already great, really cheap, and actually good for you to cycle. We also have an obesity problem in most western countries.
Maybe this is another case where things are different in other countries, but: you still have to pedal on an ebike. It's not like a mini-moped where you just twist the throttle and the machine goes forward all by itself, with no work on your part. You have to put in some effort, and the electric motor multiplies that effort. And the motor cuts out above 15.5 mph so if you want to match 20mph traffic you have to make up that remaining 4.5mph by your muscles alone. In my unscientific judgement it feels more strenuous than a brisk walk, less strenuous than jogging.
In my experience, most of the benefit is actually at low speeds because of the better acceleration. After waiting at traffic lights I can clear the junction faster from a dead stop, even if I forgot to change gears.
So yeah over any particular distance it's less exercise than a normal bike. But in my experience it makes longer distance journeys feasible in the first place, particularly over hills. I use my ebike way more than I ever used a normal bike. It's kind of like that Jevon's Paradox[1] where energy-saving devices encourage people to use more electricity -- my effort-saving bike somehow makes me do more effort overall, from the greater mileage.
>2 - they let inexperienced riders go really fast on bikes that are 3 x heavier. You see so many idiots cycling though red lights at 15mph weaving in and out of pedestrians. If you want to go that speed on a regular bike you have to earn that speed by cycling for many years
I can't make broad-brush excuses for cyclists who jump red lights. In most cases it's obviously bad I don't know what the situation is like in your city. But in a few cases I think it's justifiable and I do it shamelessly at particular junctions. Traffic lights commonly detect cars by an induction coil embedded in the road surface. These devices are often not sensitive enough to detect bicycles. So you can end up in a situation where the light will stay red forever for you. In my view that makes the lights defective and it's justifiable to skip them (with extreme care ofc). There are other particular junctions in my city where I do it. These are ones with dedicated bike-triggered lights but they don't always work and have dumb timings, and the layout is peculiar so you can safely cross by hugging close to the pedestrian barriers through a red light on certain phases. It's always faster and just as safe.
And some junctions are deathtraps for cyclists whether they go at green or red. I avoid those like the plague.
If they are "weaving in and out of pedestrians" this may be a sign the city doesn't have adequate cyclist and pedestrian infrastructure. It is not difficult to design streets so that people walking aren't disturbed by bikes, in fact it's much easier than designing them so that people biking aren't disturbed by cars.
No, what we need are normal quality bicycles. I have one that's been around for 15+ years. Needs little maintenance. My daily commute (30 minutes) gives me a bit of exercise, is good for my health.
You need bicycle paths, discourage car usage. And let people become accustomed to 'normal speed of life'.
E-bikes produce waste and contain parts that not everyone can service or maintain.
I feel like an old guy saying this. But please, stop the glorification of power consuming stuff.
With an e-bike the range you can comfortably and regularly cycles roughly doubles (says I). So the number of useful destinations you can use your bike for roughly quadruples.
An electric car has enough batteries and other raw materials to power about 100 e-bikes. So if more than one in a hundred people can ditch their second car because of e-bikes this is already a win. But especially with the advent of electric cargo bikes the number of replaced second cars is much higher. As long as at least some e-bikes replace cars, e-bikes are a giant win for the environment. Cars are just so wasteful compared to everything else.
And yes, normal bikes are greatly undervalued, I have a 80 year old "transport bike" and it is virtually indestructible. I can take one adult passenger and cycle or a ton of cargo and cover a few km without sweat. But I also greatly value my electric cargo bike, especially when shuttling the kids around on longer trips (regularly up to 10km in half an hour, and incidentally for day trips up to 75km). For my commute I use a normal e-bike. Most days of the week neither myself or my wife need the car.
It really depends on where you live, I'm in Berlin and it's pretty flat so I don't care about e-bikes, but let's say you live in SF, good fucking luck getting anywhere
An e-bike replacing a regular bike is a loss but an e-bike replacing a car is a net positive
I believe if you compare the overall efficiency (including food production, transport, storage vs. battery production and electricity), e-bikes are in fact more efficient than traditional bikes. Coupled with the fact that they are also more convenient, I believe they fill a niche that is important if we want to make progress towards minimizing our dependence on cars. I do agree that they cannot be just another consumable item since that destroys the efficiency. But, that is generally how production is oriented these days, so it's hard to make a comparison. For reference, I manually cycle ~8k mi a year and do not own an e-bike, but am thinking about it.
Geez… so negative. It’s just a matter of different things for different peoples’ needs.
Your commute is 30 mins by bike, it not everyone’s is… if someone’s commute could be halved from 60 mins to 30 mins by using an e-bike, you’d get all those people in that radius who could bike instead of drive.
Some people can’t ride 30 mins twice a day… 5 days a week… if an e-bike let people go every day, that’s just more people advocating for bicycles/bike paths/hard barriers/infra for everyone.
Also, just making it easier to get into it. People who aren’t fit who wouldn’t even consider a traditional bicycle might consider this. It’s easy and a certain portion of people would eventually get multiple bikes for different purpose.
I used to bike 45 mins to work (7 miles) - we had secure bike storage, showers and a locker room for bike stuff, but again… not everyone has that. If you were less sweaty and gross after biking (that is… less exertion on an ebike), more people would do it.
Sorry about the negative attitude. It's just that my personal experience (I can't speak for others) is based on a lot of annoyances and observations.
Sure, I'm lucky to be having a relative short commute (by choice by the way). But on that commute I come across the following (Netherlands btw):
- Teenagers on e-bikes, all of them have a short commute. 20 minutes max.
- Old people on e-bikes going high speeds with balancing issues.
- Big differences in speeds on bicycle paths. 5-10kmh small kids on bikes, 10-18kmh regulare bikes, 24kmh+ ebikes & small motorbikes.
- Bicycle shops that carry 95% ebikes since they are high margin products
- Bicycle shops declining service on regular bikes
- Obesity and lack of energy for people in general
Disclaimer:
- I worked in an e-bike servicing company before, seen how quickly the products go bad
- I've tried e-bikes and found the lack of energy spent by myself a big issue. It brought me from A to B, but it didn't feel like I had been spending energy. Which I think is an essential part of using any product.
> It brought me from A to B, but it didn't feel like I had been spending energy.
This may be a downside for you personally, but more broadly it's the reason why people may replace cars with ebikes.
Normal bicycles are in a stable relationship with cars, meaning that the sorts of people who would replace their cars with bicycles have already done so. There's no new impetus right now that wasn't present 8 years ago.
Ebikes open up the "replace cars" space to a new group of people that it didn't previously apply to.
You complain that these people aren't on regular bicycles. But the option isn't whether these people should be on ebikes or regular bicycles. It's whether those people are on ebikes or in cars. Which do you prefer?
> You complain that these people aren't on regular bicycles. But the option isn't whether these people should be on ebikes or regular bicycles. It's whether those people are on ebikes or in cars. Which do you prefer?
I'm aware that I'm focussing on my specific area here. Which is flat land, low distance commutes. I see people choosing ebikes over regular bicycles. Which I think puts them a step back in health and increases dangerous situations on the low to mid speed bicycle paths.
> I see people choosing ebikes over regular bicycles
Maybe this is a location dependent thing. I see you're in the Netherlands; I'm in the US. Among people here riding ebikes, they're not choosing ebikes over regular bicycles. They're choosing ebikes over cars. Regular bicycles were never an option for those people.
I agree that people on ebikes are more dangerous than people on regular bikes.
But they are so much less dangerous than the people in cars. Every car driver that becomes an ebike rider instead is an absolute improvement.
In a location like the Netherlands where cycling is so much more common, I can see how people could swap from a regular bicycle to an ebike, and that makes things worse.
I feel like an old guy saying this. But please, stop the glorification of power consuming stuff.
You reveal below that you live in the Netherlands. You live in bicycle paradise. Abundant bike lanes and FLAT LAND.
Until you can figure out how to export the flat land, you're going to need e-bikes if you want adoption of bikes by the masses. Regular people don't want to show up to work sweating or face an uphill ride at the end of the day.
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[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 232 ms ] threadIt is definitely more expensive (if you want something decent) than a e-bike but it occupies less space in the house.
I bought a used ebike in January to test. And it's fantastic !
I can easily get my PC, locks, food for the day, and whatever I want over the hills to go to work (I once went to the hardware shop at noon from the office, and cycled back home with my new electric tools)
I also take over cars when there is traffic, so I take about the same time to go to work everyday.
I like that the motor of the ebike stops gradually around 25km/h. So I can just provide the power I want, and the motor will then do its share to reach about 25. Which means I can still either train or not do anything.
I no longer bear to drive my car in traffic to go to work.
When I tried to do that with a manual bike, I couldn't do it everyday, I had to watch the weight, and I could hardly go to training in the evening. But the ebike can be a daily ride without any problem.
Sure it can suck to ride your bike on a cold wet day like we get in Seattle, but the right gear can help a lot... and I'm not sure anyone is saying, "If you buy a bike you MUST sell your car and do everything on the bike". I'm taking the bike as a challenge to myself, trying to do all I can on it. But if one day I'm just not up for it or it's just pouring, or the load is to big or too far. That's what car share is for. If everyone did similar we'd have a lot more pleasant cities.
Good gloves for ski or bike are inexpensive. You just need to think to buy them.
If it's really cold when you commute, just a pair of jeans and any sweater or jacket is ok, as you're cycling anyway.
But when it's raining or wet, you would rather just stay at home, get your car, or wear shorts if you're already outside.
And when it's hot, still shorts , but get a bottle of water. The biking will make a light breeze to cool you down.
But it's still up to you to find what you like.
For example, some persons do need beanies too, while others will be on beach outfit all year long.
At first, I don't live in Canada. Most days are not either freezing winter with snow or 50C, but a compromise.
Now, I suggest you find freetime2's comment in this post, who correctly summarized that you can put intelligence into choosing how to commute each morning.
If it’s really cold out I just dress as I would for a normal walk in that weather, just dial up the assist to avoid overheating.
Also let’s you commute in work clothes without worrying about sweating.
In the hot summer you sweat buckets on a regular bike, but an e-bike is cooler than just walking because not only are you not exerting yourself, but the speed generates a breeze.
And in the winter you can choose to pedal a little harder to compensate for the cold wind and again stay the same temperature just as walking.
E-bikes are much closer to walking than traditional cycling when dealing with temperatures.
Obviously rain is gonna suck though.
That's just 5 words turned into 15min video LMAO
"I'm tired of replying to this" lmao what kind of response is that
I got one recently and it has been a real eye opener.
My 'normal' cycling pace is 10 miles an hour, this is usually not enough to keep up with traffic. Slowest speed limit is 20, everyone is overtaking you dangerously. I can only reach that speed briefly, before I start sweating and panting. If you are going uphill, wel...
So unless you are really fit, driving in traffic is a challenge
In UK legal limit for ebikes is 16 miles per hour, I wish it was 20, but on most roads that works and much fewer cars are overtaking you. This makes much safe experience, and gives confidence.
It is so efficient, charging it is basically free. It is so effortless, that using it in a big city is better than a car or public transport - you can go anywhere and dont need to think about parking.
All they need is some space and sensible laws.
We could literally solve 1/3 of the problem 'for free'.
Also most people dont know how to kit out a bike to carry stuff - you dont need a trailer or a cargo bike. I can fit 125 liters of good on my bike. 40 in the rear basket, 50 in rear panniers, 35 in the front panniers. The smaller supermarket trolly is usually 70 liters, the big one is 150.
You can also get a few straps and put really big items into the basket. It have transported large post boxes, chairs, vacuum cleaners, desktop computers, etc.
And there is a youtube video of a guy carrying a full-sized fridge on a bike, but that's a bit extreme.
I don't know where you are in the UK, but I don't agree with this in the general European case. I'd be very concerned with theft. I have a friend who almost got his ebike stolen while waiting in line in London. It was attached and everything, but apparently some dude went and came back with tools. He was lucky some passerby scared the thief away.
In Paris, where I live, I'd never leave a bike unattended in the street, either. It's the main reason why I don't ride around town on my own bike: if I'm not certain that I can keep it somewhere behind a locked door, I don't bother.
Isn't it possible to increase the pain of stealing a bike to similar levels as stealing a car?
Maybe GPS or mandatory registration? Both?
Thieves don't care much for the enforcement, it's property crime, so it's deprioritized. Burglary is the exceptions in terms of property crimes, because people _really_ care about being safe in their homes and will vote appropriately.
(mandatory registration "solves" the problem by pushing people back to cars, like mandatory helmets)
We're in a world where an increasing number of crimes have essentially been decriminalised due to lack of police resources or due to politics, from minor drug offences to prolific shoplifting in certain parts of the world. Unfortunately, bike theft also seems to be one of those crimes that goes unpunished.
Bike theft will never be a priority, as bikes are low-value thefts (compared to cars, or house burglaries), and bike theives are unlikely to hurt anyone, whereas car thieves might be very dangerous, if it's joyriding kids.
SF police just don't care at all about property crime. If you have to report a property crime for insurance purposes, they'll blame you. IMO, this directly fuels more and higher levels of crime.
If you call them out specifically on bicycle theft, they'll just shrug and say that most bike owners don't record the frame serial number. If this is the case, state law should require that the serial number be submitted to a database upon purchase, but there are obviously incentives for bike shops to push back on this idea.
That said, if you want to get a GPS tracker, the options have exploded in the last few years. They're now available concealed within normal looking taillights, or in a tubular form that can be dropped down the seat tube or inserted inside the handlebar.
They don't care about our property.
eg Rape kits go unprocessed.
eg Won't do a query geofence cell phone activity to catch a theft ring.
eg Preying on elderly is completely ignored, though would be trivial to investigate. (Money leaves a trail.)
Whereas it's no hold's barred for public protests (face id, sting ray for cells). Any heterodox group is infiltrated and subverted (agitprop, agent provocateurs).
--
There's got to be a better way.
I keep thinking of Robert Peel's 9 Policing Principles:
To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
To recognize always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
To recognize always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing cooperation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
To recognize always that the extent to which the cooperation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
To seek and preserve public favor, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humor, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public cooperation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
To recognize always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty. To recognize always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
Heck, there was a story recently where a guy found where is stolen car was and the police refused to get it back for him. So he ended up resorting to vigilante justice with deadly consequences.
I think there are stories where police did nothing to protect a person being maimed or killed right next to them - and they suffer no consequences
But people would complain about the ugliness of big metal boxes appearing everywhere.
https://www.vta.org/faq/how-do-i-rent-bike-locker
Seems to be fine?
As for theft, there is little to no enforcement so it’s easy money for thieves.
However, there are things you can do to ensure the bicycle next to yours is stolen rather than yours. Look up the Sheldon brown locking technique which secured the frame and back wheel (the most expensive of the two) with a single ulock. There are also anti theft bolts that cost 20–30$/€/£ and will secure your saddle and quick release wheels. I use a kryptonite lock and thread the cable through the paniers handles so it’s annoying to steal as well. The battery has a key lock and I have an airtag in the bicycle. I remove the lights when parking and try to park in well lit busy areas or in underground parkings.
I was riding a regular bicycle in Canada for years, never got it stolen. Only once I made the mistake to park at Yonge and Dundas in Toronto late at night and some lowlife scum stole my airzound horn because it’s the only thing I hadn’t bolted down and it was the only bike on the rack… it’s worth 20$ but they took the time to unscrew it and steal it. But otherwise, nothing stolen because any other bicycle around was less hassle to steal parts or whole than mine and thus not worth the risk/time.
Wheels are bend, break cables cut, tires cutted away, chaain broken, and so forth.
Thief steals something valuable. Then wait for the replacement. Steals replacement too.
This has happened to a few of my friends (who have expensive hobbies). Very demoralizing.
It's fine.
The police never found the dudes that got it.
In a car, you know you might find street parking and you know that there are multiple paid parking garages. It might be expensive but you'll find parking.
Outside of home, work, and maybe friends, there's nowhere you can go by bike, because there's nowhere you can leave it without it being stolen.
In US, where every family owns at least 2 cars already and goes to buy grocery twice a week in a SUV.
They are simply replacing their old bikes with the electric ones, they are not switching to biking
Car traffic volume in US increased steadily after the pandemic and by mid 2022 it was already at pre-pandemic levels, now it's worse.
So e-bikes are not changing the way people move, just the way people use their bikes on their free time, when they are biking.
If you believe this you live in a massive bubble.
Or I might have researched the topic before posting
(I'm not American)
On average, American households had 1.79 cars as of 2019, or roughly two vehicles per household.
I was visiting new Orleans recently, and they had signs on rod iron fences "no bike parking" as you ride into the French Quarter. Car street parking on both sides, lots of traffic and potholes, I saw one single loop bike "rack" in a mile. The city also has its own bike share, but its rules include parking in designated spots - would you believe very few in top pedestrian and tourist areas?
I see this in Atlanta too.
The scooters and lime bikes ran into this problem.. people complain of car traffic and bikes and scooters parked on sidewalks, cities even invest in a less profitable bike share program and a few racks - or temporary bike lanes, but they to have a car parking spot rather than parking for a dozen bikes in the same footprint for some reason.
It's a ux and public policy failure / money drain.
It is INSANE. These places are made for year-round biking. In Houston, you have the state legislature forbidding mass transit funding for Houston and tons of other sharply own-the-libs political grandstanding that has real impacts to the cities in Texas.
I've worked in Minneapolis which is a dream for biking... in the summer. I've visited Washington DC and its bikeshare program was perfect for seeing all the sights distributed around the city, and showed what ebikes and good urban infrastructure can do for city livability. Bikes shrink a city by a factor of 5 for doing anything.
Every city should be falling over themselves, ESPECIALLY with the covid-fuelled distributed work culture, to do this because it makes cities FAR BETTER than living in rural or suburban areas. It will increase property values, people living in the cities, increase exchange of goods and services.
The writing is on the wall for the ICE, the oil companies, and even the republicans in Texas. Hopefully the writing isn't on the wall for the human race in the process.
It's not that bad in the winter; the dedicated bike paths get plowed.
Quite nice to have a protected bike corridor that crosses the center of the city, that’s for sure.
But none of the major bike infrastructure is slated for replacement by light rails.
What do you mean? Lack of safe parking is by far the largest pain point preventing me from biking everywhere. Even though my neighborhoods are generally very safe, bike theft is very high. I cycle 100+ miles a week for sport so I'd be happy to also be able to bike to most errands, but with the lack of safe bike parking nearly anywhere, that's not a reasonable option.
I'm driving a Leaf EV but would consider a smaller (2-seater / 1-seater) electric vehicle if they were sold and road legal in the US.
A nice video of battery pack failure: https://youtu.be/8h41p13e4TU?t=608
Of course, it is the same with scooters and bikes, but there are a lot of bikes (and almost no scooters) with removable packs, so yeah. But compared to the unicycle, bike takes up half of a small apartment.
I believe part of the reason for the delay & resulting country exclusivity is due to needing a repair presence to support the bikes.
Speaking to an independent senior bike repairer, they told me that they’re unlikely to fix eBikes as they can be more complicated & once they touch a bike to repair the onus is on them to bring it to restore to a repaired state (ie if you pay for a repair and it’s not repaired then the fault will lay with them until corrected).
So unlike traditional bikes that largely are free & operate mechanically similarly, you’re more likely going to see a more electronic car-style repair model (eg where only Tesla are repairing Tesla cars) and a push to consolidation where the 3rd party bike manufacturers or parts (eg Bafang motors or no-name) will lose out to those who have a physical store & large network (Trek, Giant, etc).
I’d love someone’s opinion on this to validate or challenge the thinking here — as for now, it seems I’ll wait forever and never to get a Van Moof or Cowboy & importing seems a dead end since it wouldn’t be repairable by any local repairer.
You can also use any generic battery or build your own.
Same goes for some startup that comes up with a way to convert existing petro-cars into electro-cars, i.e. hub motors, super-capacity, etc.
It makes all the sense in the world to me that electric revolution/evolution is happening in the e-bicycle (and to some extent e-motorbike) classes of transportation.
Bicycles, generally, are an area where we have always seen how important it is to have standards...
For a bike the traditional brands that use of the shelf parts like Bosch and Shimano still have the advantage in my opinion, especially if you don't live close to a dealer/repairshop that can handle it.
Edit: What's also putting me of from both VanMoof and Cowboy is their rocky financial history. Last month Cowboy secured funding, but it was looking sketchy for a bit. I wonder what would happen to all those cloud features from Cowboy if the company goes under.
When my Van Moof broke, I had to ship it to Amsterdam for repairs, it took three weeks. My friends with Cowboys generally get faster service because they have the Tesla model of sending a repair person out to you. Other friends with bikes that have generic Bosch and Shimano parts seem to fare better, they can walk into your average bike shop and they're able to take care of it.
I got into Boosted Board electric skateboards early on, and if their story is anything to go by, these more lifestyle oriented brands tend to not fare so well once the market matures and you're better off with your Bafang/Bosch bike, instead of an expensive brick.
Let me explain: they were early to introduce a cheap e-bike with a nice design (the S3 came in at €2o00 + €400 3 year service). Cheap is of course relative,but at the time most reputable brand ugly as hell bikes sold for €3000+.
Where they went wrong is that they took minimalism too far. The combination of automatic shifting (and there are no buttons), absence of a pedalling force sensor (cause cheap) and an internal gear hub (can't really shift under load) is basically a recipe for disaster. Combine that with general lack of QA and all of a sudden you have a company burdened by it's repair costs almost to the level of bankruptcy...
Hilarious to think that the decision to make their devices unrepairable is actually bankrupting them. But also very sad to think that many of those bikes are destined to become ewaste once the company folds and nobody can repair them.
But, and there are buts, E-Bikes are heavy so you can't bring them up home, on the other hand they are more prone to theft due to their price. E-Bikes can also be more dangerous compared to other alternatives, some models use standard bikes equipped with an added motor- those are not stable and have sub standard brakes. The better quality ones are better but they allow untrained people to reach speeds they were not trained for, sometimes without proper safety equipment.
Could, unfortunately, not can. That incentive was only available in 2018. The right-wing killed it off as soon as they got any kind of power to do so.
Yet another reason to abhor them.
> “An e-bike is a car trip replacer,” Cherry said, “but an e-cargo bike is a car replacer. An e-cargo bike offers a chance to do just about anything that most Americans need a car to do, like school runs, grocery runs, and so on.”
I don't really agree with this. Cars are faster, can go further, they haul more, and they are comfortable to ride in any weather conditions. While I think that some people could make do with an e-bike instead of a car (or maybe one less car for a family), replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices that I don't see the averge American being willing to make.
And in my case, as someone who enjoys riding a bike and is even willing to do it in the rain, I don't see it as replacing a car trip but rather a bus trip. For the three months of the year when it snows and it's not safe/possible to ride a bike to the office, I ride a bus instead (I would prefer to drive my car, but parking is too expensive/inconvenient).
> Even more baffling, Congress chose to make any e-bike costing over $4,000 ineligible for a credit, eliminating almost all e-cargo bikes.
A quick google search turns up lots of cargo e-bikes for less than $4,000. [1]
> And even with the motor providing some of the muscle, the cyclist will receive a surprisingly good workout.
I wouldn't really call it a "workout". I find it to be about the same amount of exertion as walking (at a fairly leisurely pace). So definitely better than driving, and for sedentary people it might provide some meaningful benefit. But I have actually been considering switching to a regular bike for commuting just for the added exercise.
[1] https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a25054215/best-cargo-bi...
>For the three months of the year when it snows
>replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices
I never got that argument. And some drivers are really passionate about what their cars can do that bikes can't.
It's not about replacing cars, but just about having an additional vehicle that you can choose in the morning.
Boeing's most popular plane was the 737, a lightweight and operationally convenient plane.
But airlines were never told to replace their 747s or 777s with 737s ! And they never replaced 737s with the 787 because the Dreamliner can do more !
You can own an ebike to go to work or to the bakery, and still have a car to go across the state, to go shopping, or to drive when you don't want to ride your bike.
It still saves money, fuel, and the environment, in the end.
I agree, but was responding to a quote from the article saying that e-cargo bikes are “car replacers”.
> It still saves money, fuel, and the environment, in the end.
Only if you actually use it, though. Sadly I see a lot of people buy bikes with aspirations to ride them every day, but they end up not being used.
If you want the aviation comparison to work, the e-bike would be an ultralight.
A normal bike would be the ultralight :)
I don't get that argument, if an e-bike can replace 60-70% of the trips people would use a car for, it's a very compelling car alternative.
> replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices that I don't see the averge American being willing to make.
Maybe the issue is the American lifestyle, not e-bikes.
Finland gets significantly less snowfall than we do here in winter (Oulu gets like 1/6 the snow that we get less in January, for example), and it is much colder and drier there which makes for better cycling conditions.
> “Sure, it is easier here than in the south," he said. "-15℃ is much better to cycle in than sleet.” From November to the beginning of April, temperatures usually stay below freezing, with average temperatures in January and February below -10℃.“ This makes for pretty good circumstances,” Vaarala noted, adding that salt is not used on Oulu's streets. Instead, ploughs only clear away the uppermost layer of snow. “The thin layer of remaining snow on the ground gets packed when people cycle on it, and thanks to the snow, you will get a quite good grip.” Simola, who cycles daily, agreed, saying that pedalling on the snow can be even more comfortable than on the bare asphalt.[1]
They also spend a sigificant amount to keep bike lanes clear of snow, which my city does not (they spend a significant portion of their budget already just trying to keep roads passable for cars/trucks). And even then, cycling rates in Finland drop significantly in the winter (from 20% of all trips to 10%), so a lot of people must be choosing not to cycle in the winter.
Basically Finland benefits from a rather unique set of geographical and cultural circumstances, and I don't think what works for them would work everywhere.
[1] https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-...
In spite of the above almost everyone has a car. Public transport is almost non-existent, and bicycles are rare (and of course, there is no bike infrastructure).
It is really not about the weather, it is about the mindset.
For a couple Bahamian dollars, you could get almost anywhere. Granted, you got to see how the poor people lived, but it was certainly interesting. And it was fun yelling "bus stop" when you wanted to get off.
Lol, I wish. They just sprinkle some gravel down over the snow and call it a day. Also, I disagree with the parent comment that a lot of people bike here during the winter. It's maybe 1% of the amount of people who bike during the rest of the year.
[1] https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU
(insert obligatory Nokia reference here)
I'm American and I intend to do this, but it's only made feasible by moving to the Netherlands, which is much better designed.
Sure, some people might. And every little bit helps.
But car ownership rates in the US are actually increasing in recent years, despite the fact that cars are getting more expensive to own. And cars keep getting bigger, too. I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect large numbers of Americans to trade in their SUVs and pickup trucks for tiny little e-bikes.
I live near a major bike path. Every bar along it has a lot of bike parking ,but none of the other stores and restaurants have any at all, not even the bike shop. Many people drive their bike to the bike trail instead of riding.
How do we get people to ride their bikes to get groceries? They could also ride to church on Sunday, or other similar activities. These little trips need to be tackled before we think about getting rid of cars.
The only people spending $10K/year on their car want to. The kind of folks who would be most swayed by a financial argument manage to spend much less. On top of that, your analysis is one-sided. What would be the going rate for additional daylight hours if I could sell them on the open market?
That doesn't even account for increased costs created by auto-centric development, which incentivizes sprawl and makes housing more expensive (eliminating parking minimums can cut monthly rents by $250 per unit because you can fit in a lot more units), roads more expensive, and even simple things like eating out at a restaurant more expensive because you're still paying for all that parking, even if it's baked into the purchase price.
It is certainly possible to have a car for only a few grand a year by buying used cars and doing your own maintenance and repairs on your own, but that comes with the compromise of decreased reliability, and most Americans need a reliable car. My own costs are probably around $5K a year because I drive a 20-year-old diesel VW Jetta, but I also don't need a car on a day-to-day basis because I bike to work.
I service my own bike and it costs me maaaaybe 150$ a year if I’m being generous. The bicycle cost around 2000$ to put together (ebike) counting all the tools I didn’t have.
A car otoh would easily cost 200–300$/month just for existing (parking at home, taxes, and insurance). Never mind gas, traffic fines, parking at destination, maintenance, and the lack of exercise using one involves. Or the pollution and space it takes up.
I also got a 300$ trailer that can haul 90 lbs (iirc), I’ve used it for Costco style groceries, ikea furniture transport and the hill to go back home is about 8% grade. No sweat with the torque sensing ebike.
Of course, in the developed world, bikes are more luxury things, so the market for e-bikes is completely different.
I’m not sure where this notion comes from? I wasn’t rich as a child, but I had a bicycle, and I grew up in rural Appalachia.
As an engineer we tend more to status symbol, but we are a minority.
First one had the steering column snapped after someone crashed into it in the winter (and didn't tell me)...
Second one got straight up stolen out of my parking lot... as much as I would like to get a new one, I guess I'm not allowed to have nice things in this city.
- better safety: lower center of gravity, better brakes, better suspension, better headlight, brake light, turn signals, hazard lights
- significant weather protection
- passenger accommodation (can have handles, back rest)
- significant storage under the seat, can also mount top box
- more space for batteries and thus range and speed
- harder physically to steal, also requires registration
- requires a licence
You can easily use them together with public transit systems, while e-bikes are quite unwieldy. The have better maneuverability and responsiveness. They do not require any parking spots and can be easily taken to an office.
They are a bit more dangerous than e-bikes, but with proper protective gear and improvements in the technology (chances of mechanical or electrical troubles are very low, if you don't intentionally push hardware to the limit) the difference is quite small. Also, they are somewhat harder to learn to ride, which hurts their popularity.
I honestly think the e-bike wins most of the cases, even if they're more bulky and can't easily get in public transportation.
2) "Sittable" EUC models do exist. Though usually they are higher end models and there are some caveats with riding EUC in such way.
There are roads with few cars weaving the countryside so I don’t find it too stressful. And the canal, while slower, is much nicer than the road that is adjacent.
I wish I could sustain 15mph on the roads but the massive potholes make it too dangerous. But traveling slow has its benefits too.
Admittedly fairly often I do miss having a car but I just rent one when I really need one
My 12.5km commute takes 33 minutes when there isn't snow on the ground. During winter it takes few minutes longer.
Weather is not an issue. I wear normal office clothes, so typically jeans and shirt. If it's raining, I wear gore-tex jacket and pants on top of office clothes. If it's raining heavily, I put gore-tex mittens and shoe covers. Those hard-shell clothes are always in my pannier bag, because you never know when the forecast is wrong. Also when it's cold, the same shell pants and jacket goes on top of office clothes. If it's really cold, I wear fleece jacket or merino wool hoodie underneath the gore-tex jacket. When temps drop below -10C, I put some long johns underneath jeans and also wear ski goggles.
I'm never wet when arriving no matter how hard it rains. I'm not sweaty, so no need for shower. The only downside is that during the first 6 months, I lost 6kg, so had to buy new clothes.
These are the clothes I wear on top of my office clothes:
and all those are year round in my rear pannier https://www.ortlieb.com/en_us/twin-city-urban+F8102 if I'm not wearing those. Rear pannier also carries my laptop and other work related equipment, mostly mobile phones needed for development/testing.Bike commuting is fun, relaxing, healthy and fast enough for trips roughly under 15km. Weather does not matter. If you live in part of the world where it snows, bike path maintenance might be the dealbreaker. Also, if there isn't a viable bike route at all (pretty typical in many parts of the U.S.), then surely bike commuting is hard.
EDIT: Oh, almost forgot, merino wool buff during winter months is really nice.
Some of the less expensive e-bikes just have a dumb switch on the pedal to meet legal requirements. You can barely pedal at all and the motor will accelerate to 20mph (or faster). And some have a throttle that bypasses the pedals completely (typically not allowed on bike trails/lanes, though hard to enforce).
"cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
So, vehicles which do not require user to pedal, are not electric bicycles. Those are something else. Yes, it is legal to drive such vehicles, but those are not ebikes. Typically those vehicles require you to have an insurance, possibly type approval and maybe even drivers license, depending how fast they go and how powerful the motor is.
So regardless how you feel like calling them, in Germany they are still sold as ebikes in name, even if conditions to drive them aren't the same.
In fact, the ebikes that require use of pedal are referred to as pedalec over here.
Additionally, Europe !== EU.
Couldn't we solve this by embedding geo trackers in the bikes? That should make it much easier to catch thieves and make theft much less appealing.
It could also be partially solved by flooding the city with cheap alternatives, like electric bikes that anyone can afford to rent on demand.
https://www.costco.com/jetson-haze-electric-bike.product.400...
Here in Amsterdam you can insure an E-Bike for about $10 / month, which is well worth not having to worry about theft.
Around here bike theft is a sport. If they can't get the entire bike, they'll strip every single part off the frame in under 5 minutes.
On top of that, I have quite the emotional attachment to my bike. It means something to me. A cash payout doesn't replace what was lost if it were to be stolen.
Bike insurance is a nice consolation prize if you get ripped off, but it's absolutely in no way a viable solution to the problem of widespread, organized bike theft.
If it's available then they must have good data that theft isn't that bad.
I actually wonder how many American city bike share programs have e-bikes by now, if it's most, or only a few.
It is atrocious that you buy a bike worth an decent used car and you cant't expect the electric motor last more than a few thousand kilometers [1], after which you have a broken black box of an motor in you hands that you need to replace, not fix. Which, if you are out of warranty costs close to a thousand bucks. And it is a damn 250w electric motor.
[1] google shimano e7000 longevity
There is no way this (one standard for everything) will happen, because it doesn't work like this either in the car industry or in the bike industry. That said, the number of standards in bike industry is somehow manageable I think, and for some bike types (like road bikes) you can build a completely standard bike with every component easily interchangeable. However this is not the case for the motors and batteries. The price of the components is a different issue still.
This is... not entirely true, there's heaps of standardized components in both industries. Think batteries, brake pads / brakes, springs, all the nuts and bolts, the OBD port, tires/wheels, airbags / seatbelts, and on the bike side, think cables, saddles (saddle pins), tires/wheels again, gears, pedals, etc etc.
While you probably can't fully repair one car with the other, there's plenty that has been standardized by the industry and legislation.
Are Bafang kits still a good deal for bike conversions?
Companies like Bafang and Tongsheng (not just these) sell motors that can go on any normal frame or in any normal (sufficiently strong) wheel and are compatible with standard drivetrain components. They accept and 36V or 48V (or anything 24-56V with some software tweaking and possibly lower power) power source.
It is not too late to have standards here, we just have to stop buying the shimano, bosch and yamaha nonsense (even if they are technically a little better right now).
But it's BiG gOvErNmEnT and some people object to that.
Both of these statements aren't really true.
There are lots of bike standards (both in the XKCD sense and sometimes in a few-enough-to-be-practical sense). Not everything is made with standard parts, but the majority of parts on the majority of bikes are. This has little to do with Shimano/SRAM being the two major groupset manufacturers -- components like steerers (standard 1-1/8" at the stem), stems (made by several manufacturers, not two), handlebars (there are several standards for the clamp diameter but 31.8mm and 35mm are probably the dominant two today), bottom brackets (again, several standards, but lots of vendors in this space), etc etc. Handlebars, wheels, chains, pedals, tires are more or less all made to a handful of interchangeable standards, by many manufacturers.
On the downside, it’s more work, you have to repair the motor yourself when it breaks, and it’s peak Chinese engineering where tolerances can be quite approximate along with barely good enough materials. But it’s also part of the fun (for me) and I’ve put 2700km on it in three years of (very hilly) terrain; still works well.
Buy tzd2. Undo bottom bracket. Put motor there. Screw battery on to carrier or bottle holder.
The only hard bit is finding a trustworthy local shop to buy a 36V or 48V battery.
May not be compatible with weird frame shapes, weird mountain bike frames, or proprietary nonsense from Trek or Giant.
You can also ask questions here: https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/tsdz2-mid-drive-wi...
The gist is to get a semi recent hybrid or mountain bike (because they have standard bottom brackets) and swap it for the motor.
The battery mounts on the frame where the water bottle typically goes. To flash the firmware you’ll need to build a cable with a STM bluepill.
I wanted a quality battery that wouldn’t start a fire so I got mine from em3ev but if you like gambling it will also work with any Chinese special from aliexpress or eBay or whatever.
The 48V motor will also work with a 52V battery (that’s what I use) after flashing it to open source.
It’s not super difficult and you’ll learn how to maintain bicycles in the process. If you’ve never done it before, take your time and ask questions on the endless sphere thread. Checkout YouTube videos as well for anything you’re unsure about, you’re bound to find a good howto from channels like park tool or syd fixes bikes.
Also note that several us and Canadian cities have community bike workshops where they’ll help you do anything to your bicycle by explaining you how to do it and letting you use their tools to do it. I knew nothing about bicycles but after going there regularly to rebuild my first acoustic bike, I’m now very comfortable doing almost anything myself at home on my own (with YT or the blue book of bicycle repair as a reference)
It’s fun and very rewarding, I strongly encourage you to give it a go!
Your general point is good but it sounds like you had a bad experience and are generalizing. And how would you already be out of warranty after a few thousand km, doesn't add up.
I don't think you really want heavily standardized components across brands since it limits innovation and forces lowest common denominator solutions. You want repairability.
I choose cars, motorcycles, ebikes based on whether there is a decent repair shop nearby. Because stuff will wear out and break. You will have to get work done. And when that happens you want someone who makes an honest effort rather than some junior mechanic who will just follow the standard repair procedure no matter what. (Don't get me started on how poorly qualified brand-affiliated car workshops often are)
Bikes are for people who wanna bike, like skateboards are for people who wanna skateboard (there are electric skateboards already), but if we want to improve mobility in cities we should make it easy and convenient for people to switch, the people buying e-bikes are not your regular commuter and other "vehicles" such as e-scooters (the skateboards with handlebars) are just a fad, they are toys for grown-ups and are being banned all over Europe, especially in big cities: see Paris [2] - before someone brings up corruption and lame politicians lobbied by the fuel industry, people have voted to ban them because they are a disgrace if you happen to live in a touristic city. I live in Rome, I understand the pain and I can't wait they ban them here as well.
[1] https://cdn.inmoto.it/img/992/558/2018/09/12/122124136-a9bb9...
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65154854
Bikes, E-Bikes, scooters can coexist just fine on the same infrastructure.
The blocking of scooters in Europe is often dumb and motivated by argument that somehow don't apply to equally apply to cars.
The reality is all these things are better then cars and all of them should be pushed at the same time and cars should be opposed.
For a city like Rome with lots of tight spaces it makes some more sense, but still, getting ride of more cars would be a far better idea.
Yeah, but that's not what the headline says.
So I don't understand why you're telling it to me.
E-bikes are not replacing cars, they are replacing bikes, for people who already used bikes, so only e-bikes sellers and manufacturers "need" them.
Meanwhile there are over 400 thousand two wheeled vehicles with an ice engine, albeit small, but still..., running in Rome everyday that could be easily replaced by e-mopeds and e-motorbikes that would actually make a difference air quality wise.
Bikes are not making a dent in it, believe me.
> The blocking of scooters in Europe is often dumb and motivated by argument that somehow don't apply to equally apply to cars.
Are you saying people from Paris don't know what they want?
Cars at at least are useful for something.
And pay a lot of taxes, billions of euros every year.
> The reality is all these things are better then cars
So why people still prefer cars and are making electric cars?
It's funny that "THE MARKET" is right only when it bothers someone else.
> For a city like Rome with lots of tight spaces it makes some more sense,
It is clear that you don't know Rome, tight spaces in Rome are the minority, maybe you've been to Trastevere one time and believe that's how Rome is built (spoiler: it's not), and don't know what people are complaining about.
You'd be better off by asking when you don't understand something (even though a lot of the reasons are highlighted in the article I posted about Paris)
Scooters are used mainly by American tourists to try'n'kill themselves because they don't understand that other people actually live in Rome and it's not a theme park, like Disneyland. And that there are holes in our streets and you shouldn't run on them at night, drunk, you and your drunk girlfriend, they are for one person only, where the lane for buses is, in the wrong direction. And then abandon them in front of the door of a house, an hotel or a shop or even better throwing them on a sidewalk blocking disabled people.
e-mopeds have plates, you can fine people using them the wrong way.
it is a fundamental part of trying to keep other road users safe.
Including me, that walk all the time in Rome, because I love its very wide spaces.
1 - bikes are already great, really cheap, and actually good for you to cycle. We also have an obesity problem in most western countries.
2 - they let inexperienced riders go really fast on bikes that are 3 x heavier. You see so many idiots cycling though red lights at 15mph weaving in and out of pedestrians. If you want to go that speed on a regular bike you have to earn that speed by cycling for many years
2) Roughly speaking anyone without health issues can ride any bike 15mph. Also, the weight of the bike does not matter that much, as it is anyway way lighter than the rider. 25 pound normal bike vs 55 pound ebike does not make much of a difference given a 180 pound rider.
That's not good attitude - my grandma isn't gonna get any fitter.
If you are going slowly on narrow UK road you get overtaken by double-decker bus with 2 inches of clearence. It's a harrowing experience.
Or if you are going uphill and you are concious you arr holding up all trafic
Without ebikes, only fit bike enthusiasts ride on the roads
I've rode bikes for transportation in the US for over a decade now, and I can't agree. My average speed is around 12 mph. That's a bit faster than what you say your speed is in another comment. But it's still much slower than typical motorized vehicle speeds. I don't need to keep up with traffic, just make sure that they drive safely around me.
> Or if you are going uphill and you are concious you arr holding up all trafic
That's not your problem. In most jurisdictions (in the US, at least), the roads are first come, first served. Don't slow people down more than necessary, of course, but don't worry about it if it's unavoidable. I personally avoid these situations by taking longer routes that have less traffic, and not riding when traffic is heavy or waiting if there's a temporary increase in traffic.
> If you are going slowly on narrow UK road you get overtaken by double-decker bus with 2 inches of clearence. It's a harrowing experience.
If the lane's not wide enough to share, don't share. Taking the lane as appropriate has greatly improved my safety on the road. I usually ride to the right, but I'll take the lane when necessary for my safety and refuse to apologize for it.
I’m saying this as someone who has ridden a bicycle in traffic almost daily for years in Montreal and Toronto. It takes nerves of steel and that’s very wrong, but it’s the reality.
Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used. Or threaten physical harm using their car as a weapon just because you dare make them arrive 15 seconds later at the next red light.
I live in a much more civilized country now where it isn’t open season on cyclists and don’t miss it one bit.
> Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used.
This hasn't been my experience. I regularly take the lane and this seems to have significantly reduced close passes vs. riding far to the right when there isn't enough space. I get passed closely maybe once per week on my current commute, which is over 10 miles long and is mostly suburban.
Can you step back and recognize that your experience doesn't matter in discussions like this? That, if anything, it's detrimental when you use it to try to solution-engineer concerns that you don't understand?
Yep, me too.
Cycling is commonplace, there's no guns, no toxic Christian-nationalist politics, society is pretty stable, public transit is excellent, people are polite, life is good here. Moving out of America did wonders for my mental health.
"Just take a longer route" Sure I'll take a side street when possible to avoid a main street, but often there's no reasonable alternative to a street with cars going fast.
The things you're suggesting for bikes work on ebikes just as well. You're fit, and have the confidence that years of experience brought.
"Take the lane" is good advice but you must not be around other vehicles if you don't have cars making close passes. It makes you more visible and most drivers fully change lanes to pass but I still find drivers who won't. They'll take the edge of my lane and pass close. Being able to maintain speed can mean fewer overtakings.
It takes a lot of confidence to be a vehicular cyclist. Ebikes boost the rider's power and confidence.
idk where you are but it's illegal for cars to make close (defined as <1.5 metres clearance) passes here. you can get the driver fined severely if you catch them on film doing it. you shouldn't tolerate it just because drivers think they're entitled to do it.
You're suggesting it's the cyclist in the wrong if they stay close to the road edge, but a wider-than-average vehicle then passes them without leaving a decent gap? The vast majority of drivers do leave enough space and I'm happy to ensure they can pass safely by using no more of the road than is necessary. The sort of drivers that don't are going to be unpleasant/dangerous to share the road with no matter how determinedly you "hold the lane". The worst offenders are cars towing wide trailers/ caravans - they often seem to be entirely unaware of how much road they take up.
My point is that if there isn't enough space, some drivers will try to squeeze through. Taking the lane when there isn't enough space to prevent drivers from trying to squeeze through is logical, and it works in my experience. A driver will have to wait behind me or switch lanes, rather than pass me too closely. Anecdotally, I find that when I ride down the center of the lane, drivers are much more likely to completely switch lanes (giving me plenty of space) rather than straddle two lanes (passing me too closely in the process).
If there's enough space, I don't take the lane.
Also: Cyclists aren't "in the wrong" when drivers pass them dangerously. That's 100% on the drivers. My approach is about encouraging drivers to pass safely, not passing judgement.
Wait until you hear about "cars".
Maybe this is another case where things are different in other countries, but: you still have to pedal on an ebike. It's not like a mini-moped where you just twist the throttle and the machine goes forward all by itself, with no work on your part. You have to put in some effort, and the electric motor multiplies that effort. And the motor cuts out above 15.5 mph so if you want to match 20mph traffic you have to make up that remaining 4.5mph by your muscles alone. In my unscientific judgement it feels more strenuous than a brisk walk, less strenuous than jogging.
In my experience, most of the benefit is actually at low speeds because of the better acceleration. After waiting at traffic lights I can clear the junction faster from a dead stop, even if I forgot to change gears.
So yeah over any particular distance it's less exercise than a normal bike. But in my experience it makes longer distance journeys feasible in the first place, particularly over hills. I use my ebike way more than I ever used a normal bike. It's kind of like that Jevon's Paradox[1] where energy-saving devices encourage people to use more electricity -- my effort-saving bike somehow makes me do more effort overall, from the greater mileage.
>2 - they let inexperienced riders go really fast on bikes that are 3 x heavier. You see so many idiots cycling though red lights at 15mph weaving in and out of pedestrians. If you want to go that speed on a regular bike you have to earn that speed by cycling for many years
I can't make broad-brush excuses for cyclists who jump red lights. In most cases it's obviously bad I don't know what the situation is like in your city. But in a few cases I think it's justifiable and I do it shamelessly at particular junctions. Traffic lights commonly detect cars by an induction coil embedded in the road surface. These devices are often not sensitive enough to detect bicycles. So you can end up in a situation where the light will stay red forever for you. In my view that makes the lights defective and it's justifiable to skip them (with extreme care ofc). There are other particular junctions in my city where I do it. These are ones with dedicated bike-triggered lights but they don't always work and have dumb timings, and the layout is peculiar so you can safely cross by hugging close to the pedestrian barriers through a red light on certain phases. It's always faster and just as safe.
And some junctions are deathtraps for cyclists whether they go at green or red. I avoid those like the plague.
If they are "weaving in and out of pedestrians" this may be a sign the city doesn't have adequate cyclist and pedestrian infrastructure. It is not difficult to design streets so that people walking aren't disturbed by bikes, in fact it's much easier than designing them so that people biking aren't disturbed by cars.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
You need bicycle paths, discourage car usage. And let people become accustomed to 'normal speed of life'.
E-bikes produce waste and contain parts that not everyone can service or maintain.
I feel like an old guy saying this. But please, stop the glorification of power consuming stuff.
An electric car has enough batteries and other raw materials to power about 100 e-bikes. So if more than one in a hundred people can ditch their second car because of e-bikes this is already a win. But especially with the advent of electric cargo bikes the number of replaced second cars is much higher. As long as at least some e-bikes replace cars, e-bikes are a giant win for the environment. Cars are just so wasteful compared to everything else.
And yes, normal bikes are greatly undervalued, I have a 80 year old "transport bike" and it is virtually indestructible. I can take one adult passenger and cycle or a ton of cargo and cover a few km without sweat. But I also greatly value my electric cargo bike, especially when shuttling the kids around on longer trips (regularly up to 10km in half an hour, and incidentally for day trips up to 75km). For my commute I use a normal e-bike. Most days of the week neither myself or my wife need the car.
An e-bike replacing a regular bike is a loss but an e-bike replacing a car is a net positive
However, if people switch to an ebike instead of their cars, it’s still a net positive overall.
Your commute is 30 mins by bike, it not everyone’s is… if someone’s commute could be halved from 60 mins to 30 mins by using an e-bike, you’d get all those people in that radius who could bike instead of drive.
Some people can’t ride 30 mins twice a day… 5 days a week… if an e-bike let people go every day, that’s just more people advocating for bicycles/bike paths/hard barriers/infra for everyone.
Also, just making it easier to get into it. People who aren’t fit who wouldn’t even consider a traditional bicycle might consider this. It’s easy and a certain portion of people would eventually get multiple bikes for different purpose.
I used to bike 45 mins to work (7 miles) - we had secure bike storage, showers and a locker room for bike stuff, but again… not everyone has that. If you were less sweaty and gross after biking (that is… less exertion on an ebike), more people would do it.
Sure, I'm lucky to be having a relative short commute (by choice by the way). But on that commute I come across the following (Netherlands btw):
- Teenagers on e-bikes, all of them have a short commute. 20 minutes max.
- Old people on e-bikes going high speeds with balancing issues.
- Big differences in speeds on bicycle paths. 5-10kmh small kids on bikes, 10-18kmh regulare bikes, 24kmh+ ebikes & small motorbikes.
- Bicycle shops that carry 95% ebikes since they are high margin products
- Bicycle shops declining service on regular bikes
- Obesity and lack of energy for people in general
Disclaimer:
- I worked in an e-bike servicing company before, seen how quickly the products go bad
- I've tried e-bikes and found the lack of energy spent by myself a big issue. It brought me from A to B, but it didn't feel like I had been spending energy. Which I think is an essential part of using any product.
This may be a downside for you personally, but more broadly it's the reason why people may replace cars with ebikes.
Normal bicycles are in a stable relationship with cars, meaning that the sorts of people who would replace their cars with bicycles have already done so. There's no new impetus right now that wasn't present 8 years ago.
Ebikes open up the "replace cars" space to a new group of people that it didn't previously apply to.
You complain that these people aren't on regular bicycles. But the option isn't whether these people should be on ebikes or regular bicycles. It's whether those people are on ebikes or in cars. Which do you prefer?
I'm aware that I'm focussing on my specific area here. Which is flat land, low distance commutes. I see people choosing ebikes over regular bicycles. Which I think puts them a step back in health and increases dangerous situations on the low to mid speed bicycle paths.
Maybe this is a location dependent thing. I see you're in the Netherlands; I'm in the US. Among people here riding ebikes, they're not choosing ebikes over regular bicycles. They're choosing ebikes over cars. Regular bicycles were never an option for those people.
I agree that people on ebikes are more dangerous than people on regular bikes.
But they are so much less dangerous than the people in cars. Every car driver that becomes an ebike rider instead is an absolute improvement.
In a location like the Netherlands where cycling is so much more common, I can see how people could swap from a regular bicycle to an ebike, and that makes things worse.
I can understand these comments from a fit single adult. I basically had to give up biking once we had kids. A cargo ebike has been a life changer.
You reveal below that you live in the Netherlands. You live in bicycle paradise. Abundant bike lanes and FLAT LAND.
Until you can figure out how to export the flat land, you're going to need e-bikes if you want adoption of bikes by the masses. Regular people don't want to show up to work sweating or face an uphill ride at the end of the day.