"I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
> "Researchers also find that when we develop groups, our friendships are more sustainable than they are with individuals. Because there's multiple touch points now, right? Someone else in the group could reach out to all of us, and then we all keep in touch."
This is the most important tip in the article, in my experience.
When I lived in SF, most of my friend hangs were 1-on-1 catchups over coffee or lunch. Scheduling and comparing calendars would sometimes feel like an impersonal chore. Meeting so many people individually was time consuming, repetitive, hard to schedule, and yet somehow infrequent -- it felt like the main reason to hang was to catch up on what's new, so you needed to wait a month or two to let new things pile up.
Then I moved to Seattle. I decided to switch to only really attending (or inviting people to) hangouts that included multiple people. Basically, my new policy was to try to hang out with multiple simultaneously whenever possible. And it worked wonders! My friends met all my other friends, and things played out exactly as described by the article -- some of them hit it off, became friends with each other, and started initiating invites and events without me.
In addition, hangouts are just more fun with more people. There's more to talk about, more excitement, more fun. And it's easier to schedule, too, since you can see more people in a smaller number of hangs. The value of the hangs goes up, too. There's more reason for people to say "yes" because they're getting to catch up with multiple people, not just one person.
I'm glad that worked for you. My experience has become that as my friends groups have gotten older, getting larger groups together has become very difficult. You have to plan it far enough in advance that everyone has sufficient notice, you need a venue large enough to host everyone, people have kids that need to be accommodated somehow, and everyone also lives further apart. All of these mean that we've gone from getting together once or twice a month to maybe once every 3 months or so. So while everyone still keeps in touch online, in-person meetups have reduced a lot in frequency.
You shouldn't obsess on having everybody or even the majority of your groups together. Besides your friends also have friends and vice-versa that aren't part of your circle so you shouldn't even think of having any kind of exclusivity.
People come and go in your life.
What I am struggle with aren't local acquaintances but friends that aren't local to me anymore.
Yeah this is my experience too. Especially, once you have kids, it is so hard to align everybody's nap times, classes, etc.
And if you somehow are able to get whole group together, then too many preschoolers around is just chaotic. Heard it will be easier once kids are older.
But for now, we usually hang out with one or maybe two families at a time.
Would encourage still prioritizing 1:1 time with close friends. Even if that means traveling. It's a different experience, though I agree introducing friends to other friends is usually a pleasure.
I hate hanging out in groups and almost exclusively do 1:1. I have no problem talking to my friends for hours on end, it never feels like a chore and I always makes time. Your experience reads quite strangely to me. Even if there is nothing new to talk about, spending time with friends is rewarding in itself.
Just the wording in that particular post made it seem like a lot of work. I have had 'friends' like that in the past, and if you need things to 'pile up' so you can hold a conversation, and you find it hard to motivate yourself to do the logistics and make time, maybe they're not the most compatible people for you.
However I can't judge, because I personally dislike group hangouts, so I can understand if conversely someone finds arranging 1:1 meetings difficult.
1:1's don't renew. You have to keep feeding the relationship. The relationship can be extremely rewarding for chit chat & conversation, but it could drop at any point, and become a memory. It has no self-maintaining spirit, no ability to repair itself if one person loses some availability or time.
A group can fend for itself in a far different way. Assemblages can have members come and go, but maintain a core purpose and identity. There's rhizomatic affiliations that can find each other & get new currents & excitements going, whereas in 1:1's the potentials for connection are bounded.
Closed systems can only keep processing the same pieces of energy again and again for so long. They can steal some vitality from the surrounding, but the lifetime of the relationship is limited. You need more open dynamical systems if you want to keep interesting things going. Long term survival requires systems that can perpetuate & share themselves. 1:1's by definition cannot.
Agreed. But there is a cost to having lots of friends in the sense that those friendships tend to be superficial.... Very superficial. But that's the point. Having Superficial relationships with a larger group is just as important as having strong relationships with a few people. Most people don't realize this.
I don't think we disagree, my point would be that you need both. But if you rely on 1:1 only you're either quickly going to lose friends or spend all your time in 1:1 (or not make new friends at all, as you can't make new friends in 1:1)
True friends do not need feeding, you can go a year without seeing each other and catch up and be right back to where you were before. And most of my 1:1 friends, I talk to regularly anyway because I want to. I've known these people for decades. So your comment about closed systems doesn't ring true to me at all.
This really doesn’t sound like a healthy ideal to me, and if I remember correctly there was this paper that would detect elevated risk of suicides by analyzing social graphs and finding nodes that weren’t part of any cliques. So that should imply that this is not good for anyone.
What percentage of those people want more friends or friendship time than they have access to? What percentage have a mental illness like depression or anxiety, or alcoholism that would cause them to spend more time alone?
I'm open to the idea that my suicide risk is higher by not having a large group support network, but I enjoy being alone and I enjoy 1:1 time enormously more than being in groups, and overall I think my quality of life is higher with this choice. Everyone is different of course.
Thats an interesting take. I prefer 1:1 type of events, or maybe a small group. I just find it easier to hold a conversation that way. I don’t have too many friends, so the time factor is not an issue for me.
I think 1:1 is best for close friends who you have a strong connection with, and groups are better for more casual friends. You can have a group hangout with people who in 1:1 format you'd struggle to converse with. Personally I don't have any of those friends anymore so I don't do group hangouts.
I can relate. For a lot of people, "friends" is someone you might find yourself sitting with at the same table at a group dinner or playing the same board game with a bunch of other people. But meet up with them one on one and you will quickly run out of things to talk about.
One thing I found strange about SF is that I never found a group that would do the weekly hang.
The weekly hang is a socially porous experience, it has a fixed location and fixed start time but everything else is improvised. Different people could dip in and out, people felt free to bring new friends, people they just started dating, friends from out of town etc. Some people came once and never again, others become regulars. The hallmark of a great weekly hang is that the entire initial cohort gets replaced but the weekly hang still persists.
It's a commitment in time that "busy professionals" ostensibly had no time for which is why I think it was so unpopular in SF but it really killed a big part of the vibe of the city for me.
I’ve never heard of this sort of thing. It almost seems more like an informal club than a group of friends. (Not to knock the idea, it seems interesting).
Really? I feel like every time I'm in another part of the country for more than a few days, one of my friends will invite me to their weekly hang and I get to meet a bunch of other cool folk.
I don’t live in the US but I’ve also never heard of this or really come across it. Is it about going to someone’s home? Or meeting at a bar? I can’t quite visualise what you’re talking about.
Weekly hangs are real. I have started and participated in several. I think a key to a good group hang is to have an activity that serves as a base narrative for why everyone is together. The activity should be easy enough for newcomers to join in, and compelling enough to keep people coming back.
This is exactly what my neighbor does. He makes some fantastic home made pizzas and invites over the neighbors every Friday. You're welcome to bring whoever, but the dude can only make so much pizza, so people try to be courteous.
yup. weekly trivia nights at the pub did it for us. most of us are drinkers, but for those that aren't there's still dinner, a fun activity and good company
I'm intrigued by this, I feel like I know a lot of people but I don't think I know anybody with anything like this. Closest is maybe a weekly book club but that's different.
What kind of location -- is this a bar or a park or a brunch spot or something like bowling? How big is the group usually, like 6 or 20? Is it weekend afternoon or weekday evening? And how does it get started, does it just start organically or is it a group decision among a bunch of existing friends?
I think I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it because if I go with friends for food it's always somewhere new, if it's an activity it's always different, and the idea of the exact same time and location every week seems like it would get dull quick. Maybe that's because I'm accustomed to the fact that in big cities the whole point is novelty, always something new to explore. The idea of a fixed time and a fixed location doesn't seem as compatible with that.
Where did you find it successful pre-SF? Was it a mid-sized city thing, or a more country thing, or a college thing? I'm just so curious to know more.
I've done something like this at different points in the past. I once had a group where every Wednesday night we would meet at the same pub for some drinks and dinner with an open invitation for anybody that wanted to join. Some weeks there were 3 or 4 of us, some weeks there were 20.
Had another group where every Saturday morning we would go to a different cafe for brunch. It was a smaller and less dynamic group, and we would organise the venue in a group chat throughout the week, but it wasn't a question of, "who wants to come this week?", it was just assumed we would all be there and phrased as, "Any objections to trying this place?"
Throughout my life this has mostly been my friend groups. It's really only sustainable with at most 6 people max or something like that.
I think this is more inline with the way humans have evolved as we evolved in small local tribes (Not of 6 people, but in modern times it's hard to keep anything more than 6 from breaking up).
This started out as several different friend groups when I grew up. Those evolved as time passed and then in college in the dorms we formed groups based off of proximity. Then after college I befriended a san francisco local and he introduced me to his childhood friend group he grew up with and I hung out with them for a number of years before leaving.
After that it's been hard to find another group. I have found that proximity when eating is the best most consistent way to form friendships. If you always eat lunch or dinner consistently and often with the same set of people you guys will end up forming a bond. Even with your co-workers. If you want it outside of work I have found communal living spaces where there's a shared table for eating helps promote this. Very hard to do this when you get married.
Also note that when the proximity ends, the connection tends to drift as well. You will find that this is not only consistent with friends but family as well.
When I was college-aged, several of my friends would meet at the same pool hall every Saturday night. We'd play pool or sometimes darts and shoot the shit. Usually was only 4-6 people though, but sometimes it'd get up to 10. It never got boring as the pool always kept it interesting, you could always try to get better, and change it up between a few different types of pool (Cut Throat, 8-ball, and 9-ball, mostly).
There was another time when there was a weekly karaoke group I hung out with. Again pretty small, like 4-6 people usually. Always the same place. Seeing who would go up to sing (from other groups besides our own, too) and what songs they'd try kept it interesting.
There's also a Friday night board game group that I've now been a part of for about eight years now, that's had it almost every week. I haven't always been able to go, but I've probably been to probably at least two hundred of them at this point. It used to be more open and would have 6-12 people there regularly, but the guy who hosted it (out of his house) originally got tired of doing it, and when it migrated to another host it whittled down to only 5 core people. But even at the new host's home that's been going for like four years now (without me and another guy for most of 2020-2021 because of the pandemic).
So yeah, having some sort of game or activity it centers around tends to help, at least in my case. Especially something that doesn't require specific people and if people can drop in or out pretty easily (people can arrive late or leave early and no big deal, they can still jump into a game or sign up to sing a song, etc).
Dinners don't work quite as well, imo, because it requires people to arrive pretty much at the same time.
yeah, I am a bit confused by the statement. I have never planned this, it just happens after repeatedly meeting at the same pub in some frequency. I've also seen a shared, regular activity create this, for example the monthly pub quiz or sneak preview in the small independent cinema. I think it's important that it's somewhat accessible everyone so that it's not a chore.
Pre-covid, I did this for about nine years. Trivia night at a local bar. The meeting even survived the closing of the original bar; we just moved to a different bar. However the size of the group did shrink over time, mainly coinciding with several members meeting other people and so not being single any longer. Since covid there's only been the occasional get-together, since not enough of the remaining members are willing to do something regular.
This is how I met most of my current friends, as well. I was at a local bar one night on what turned out to be trivia night. There were a few of us who didn't know anybody well but had seen each other at the bar before, so we decided to form a team to win some of our tab back.
Fast forward 8 or so years. We no longer do trivia, but get together just about every week along with the siblings, childhood friends, girlfriends, and wives that have joined us over the years.
It's a little strange to think of how different my life would be had I not been at that bar on that night, but that's how these things work: you put yourself in a situation where something social is going on, and all that's standing between you and making some new friends is saying "yes."
Imagine the friends you didn't make because you stayed in that one night when you were on the fence about going out. Good thing too -- it kept you out of prison!
I mean, imagining what 'wouldn't have been' is a lot easier than imagining what 'could have happened' because you literally have no idea. You can imagine life without your friend group, but try to imagine a life where you ended up grabbing a drink at Jeffery Dahmer's apartment or any of a million other things.
Board game meetup. Show up, with or without games you would like to play, and either join a game table or invite others to play the game you are setting up.
There's a pretty successful version of this in London called London Drinking Club, which is literally just a bunch of people meeting up at the same pub every week with name tags.
When I moved (back) to Seattle, one of my coworkers invited me along after work for Monday night pool. This had been going on for a couple years by the time I showed up, and I made it a regular part of my life for the next decade. I made some of my best and longest-lasting friendships there; those connections led to others, and on again, ultimately populating most of my social world in this city.
It was a simple thing which didn't need a lot of coordination. You just showed up after work if you felt like it and hung out as long as you wanted to. When each game ended, the winner took on a new challenger; new arrivals were automatically next up. Between games, you hung out, drank beer, chatted, enjoyed each other's company, maybe got some food (if you ordered a plate of fries, it would be shared with all; that was the rule). Some people were serious about pool and played hard, while others only went for a round or two; some people stayed until midnight, while others just dropped in for a pint.
I don't know exactly how many people were part of this thing; anyone could invite anyone, so there were maybe forty or fifty people involved overall, roughly a dozen of them regulars. On any given night there might only be five or six present, but sometimes on a nice summer evening you'd get fifteen or twenty, and we'd open up another table.
Not a country thing - this was right in the heart of the city. It's possible some of the people may have known each other from college but that certainly wasn't the defining character; we were all working professionals, ages from mid 20s to late 40s. I wasn't there when it started but I believe it was a group decision among existing friends.
I had in friends in SF that tried, I just couldn't get on board with their concept of fun
I wasn't into board game night, I also tried DnD which was ok but what an arduous turn based system and ritual, the weeknight bars were meh (to me), weeknight nightlife was pathetic compared to actual “world class” cities, some of my friends did well in the bouldering scene, there was a time when I was interested in free pizza and accumulating AWS credits at tech mixers, but that got old quick.
Turns out I don't like tech industry, I like money alongside the ability to build things myself. No big surprise there, just would have thought that the money in SF would have attracted more interesting and varied people.
Yes, it’s too nerdy, but some longer time residents will rant and rave about all the attractive women now in the city, as “tech” became more approachable as well as allure of money attracted more for other reasons
But I personally find the bar to be low, “San Francisco 49ers” is still loudly proclaimed, its a derogatory rating system for women “4’s that think they are 9’s”. or “LA 4’s are SF 9’s”. Derogatory, but not inaccurate. I’m sure we can find a synonymous progressive way of acknowledging the exact same phenomenon.
Then, even longer time residents speak of a mystical way more cooler version of San Francisco, with artists! except every currently nice neighborhood is described as a once dangerous ghetto, and nothing sounds appealing about that to me either.
I don’t think cities that gather the “I like money” folk have really ever attracted interesting people, or another way: money doesn’t make people interesting.
LA, NY, Miami circuit. Dose of some select spots for European summers.
Professionally, I got in front of the people I needed to in Silicon Valley and flipped a couple startups with non-dilutive capital and got out. Probably stayed in SF one or two years longer than needed, but I was open to making that my identity at the time so I tried to make it work, I like some things about Norcal just that they were always excursions instead of right in my neighborhood. People that like SF were almost never talking about things they liked within the city limits, it was things they liked somewhere between the pacific ocean and the border of Nevada, spoiler alert, not whats attractive about other cities.
Now I never mention tech unless its useful to talk about my exposure to a specific opportunity.
There's a lot of systems that are simpler, easier, and in my personal opinion, more fun than d&d. For example, FATE. The star wars RPG is pretty good too. Tabletop games can also vary a lot in quality depending on the group and the GM.
Your local Facebook or meetup.com page probably has a running group that meets regularly. Look for the "Meet at 6:30am Friday morning in the parking lot by Starbucks" group. If you show up to that enough I guarantee you'll have 20-50 friends by the end of this year and attend a fun Christmas party where you know or can chat to multiple people.
Reach out to the group and see if you could lead a more casual run distance as part of their Wednesday run. The run groups I've been a part of were receptive to things like that. The more important aspect of the run was the general finish time and not the distance.
This. Most groups are casual, but they all have their own styles. One is a trail run where we stop every mile or so for a few minute break (if needed). Another is a 'meet at starbucks at 8am and we'll see you at 9am for coffee' where everyone runs their own pace/distance, sometimes shared, sometimes not. Another is hill repeats where walking is also 'acceptable' and we chat at the bottom and top and wait for walkers so they don't feel alone (and we get more time to rest :)
Just show up and try to improve yourself. Be friendly.
Most of the ones that pop up on Meetup for me (and I'm referring to hiking groups, not running groups, I can't run for very long at all) seem to pick trail routes that will be at least 5-8 miles long, and you risk getting lost if you have to stop early, or they insist on a specific fast pace in the description, or it's an hour drive away just to get there, or they're in the middle of the day on a weekday, which I pretty much can't ever do.
Pretty rare I find one of these that are both around 3 miles (about my limit most days unless I'm at a park all day with breaks, my feet and sometimes lower back start getting pretty sore) and a more casual pace. I do attend those that I find, though. But that tends to be like 3 per year. Kind of defeats the purpose of making friends in these groups.
I don't think I've found any that are just 'go as far as you want and we'll meet you back at the local Starbucks' though, at least not near me.
Here's the next few upcoming, as an example:
"6 mile Hike Not a Beginner's hike" - (Tuesday midday)
"About 4.5- or 5-miles total" - (Tuesday midday)
"Walk about 2 miles" (but Tuesday midday and 45 minutes away, can't drive there, hike 2 miles, and drive back during a workday)
"We will be hiking 4.5 miles at a faster pace (3.75 mph) dependent on trail conditions." - (Evening, but fast pace and a bit too long)
"6.5 miles with shorter options" - (from the map it looks like the shorter option is "turn back around", it's one big loop. it's on a Sunday but it's also over an hour drive away from me)
No mention of meeting anywhere afterwards in any of those.
The sadness. Most groups end up chatting along the way or in the parking lot afterwards.
The other option would be to start your own.
My most local group was started as a Facebook group by a lady who wanted to run with other people. She lives on a country road and wanted to run with others in town, so she took over an existing but dead Facebook group. The time and schedule would be up to you.
This is pretty much her strategy, being intentional that you want, and welcome, people to join you.
I'm familiar with the chat during (harder for the faster pace ones, though, another reason I prefer casual pace) and parking lot afterwards. If I have to turn back at or before the halfway point for most of these I imagine I'd be waiting a while in the parking lot for them to get there, though. Also from social pressure (and feeling embarrassed of having to turn back) I'd want to try to do the full trail and I'd regret it afterwards, most of the time.
I'm aware I could start my own. I once was the admin of a different type of Meetup group that had over 1000 members. It's just more way work than I have the time and energy for anymore, and also pretty expensive if done on Meetup.com nowadays ($200/year). For as infrequently as I'd host meetups it wouldn't be worth it.
I could also try to become a co-organizer of another group, but that would probably require me being able to go to enough of these for them to trust me to be a co-organizer.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's more hassle than I want to go through, for something that I can do on my own whenever I feel like it (and with my dogs).
Is there a hash hounds harriers group in mountain view (https://www.hashhouseharriers.com/what-is-hashing/)? I would be somewhat surprised if not given they are everywhere. Excellent both socially and physically for all abilities. I recommend checking them out. Essentially you run as a group, but someone has marked out a forking trail in advance. Fast runners risk taking the wrong route and so have to backtrack when someone shouts they found the marker indicating the right route. Slower runners usually know which is the right route by the time they reach the fork so have a chance to catchup. On the social side, it is excellent for meeting new people. I had family members involved in HHH groups where every week a different person would volunteer to host drinks or a meal after. This is not universal but usually there is some social meetup after each run.
I'm in the far suburbs of Chicago, but I wasn't aware of this, and it does look like there's one of these in downtown Chicago: https://www.chicagohash.com/
Downtown Chicago is a bit far for me to drive for a run, but I'll keep an eye on it in case one of them ends up a bit closer to me. And maybe this will help someone else that does live downtown. Thanks for the suggestion!
All the wording on that meetup page says to me "come run with us". 3.5 miles and then back to Starbucks to chat for 25 minutes sounds just about right. Most people will have driven, so if you turn around earlier you can be back at starbucks for chatting.
It will take a few times of showing up to make friends. It kind of feels like walking into a workplace cafeteria where people eat together everyday, what they're talking about or laughing about is something they've talked or laughed about previously, so all the details are missing and they're just asking about X or Y updates.
I encourage you to go, at least a few times. Read "how to win friends and influence people" and "The Charisma Myth" before your first one if you need a "how the heck do I deal with new people" boost.
Send me a picture of your running group photo at Christmas and it'll make my year!
I have spoken to people in that group and attended some of their events. I hope you will allow the possibility that I know more about the group than their Meetup page says.
For example, the 3.5 miles on Wednesdays is on a track at a local high school. I was literally getting lapped over and over, just like in high school.
So this speaks more about you it seems. I don't know if you know this, but you won't get in trouble. Your grades aren't going down if you do something against the group. You can leave at any time because you have autonomy. At the very most 20 out of the 7 billion people might ostracize you.
I apologize, but your response is a muddle of contradictory cliches. I am literally there to make friends, of course I care what at least some of them think. I'm not there to actually run.
I went. I sucked, to the point of it being awkward. I trained daily for three months before going a second time. I still sucked. I don't know how to create the conditions that would make it productive to attend again.
It is no exaggeration that to say that social fitness fundamentally changed my life as an adult. I had, one day at the gym, decided to try a group fitness class. I had seen the class many times. Normally at the gym I lifted weights, wearing my headphones doing my Chinese language lessons. I saw they were getting an awesome workout, so one day I went and joined them, they were super friendly and welcoming and I became a repeat customer and started doing a different class at the gym. That instructor invited me to try her class at another gym where she taught. I took her up on it and met there another even larger group very friendly, and very social people. My gym moved locations so I switched to going to the gym that I had visited. I hardly ever used the weight machines. I did the fitness classes but some do use weights.
A couple months in at the new gym I met a woman who soon became my best friend. An odd pair we made me being a 55 year old introverted redhead and her being a 36 year old gregarious French-African. But we are both engineers and love fitness. Our friendship really bonded over training for the Rachel Carson Challenge, a 36 mile hike.
And running - well that opened up and even more important social network. I started running with a small group in the neighborhood that was organized by my soon-to-be best friend, then added a larger city-wide group that another soon to be very close friend had introduced me to, and then joined the local Fleetfeet group with her after she mentioned that they were also very nice - even though they met on Sundays, which I had always treated as my Fitness day off.
The first several times I went on Fleetfeet runs without my friend was a bit awkward, as I didn't really know anyone. I am by nature on the introvert side of that scale. But running, like the Rachel Carson Challenge hike, gives you a lot of one-on-one time with people – often complete strangers. After running and talking to someone for hours, you are no longer strangers. The Fleetfeet runs usually starts at a Starbucks and then at the end of the run we would stay for coffee and a snack. You do that every week with a group of people and, like my fitness classes - if you have a social bone in your body - you're going to end up with a group of good friends.
The other thing going on in my life which was quite challenging in terms of my loneliness is that my wife has left me and I was living alone. Without my new social network, my life would've been a much bigger challenge. The amount of emotional support that I got was beyond measure. A few months into doing group runs, I talked with a new stranger who six months later became a romantic partner. Thus, I can trace my current happy relationship state to that one moment in the gym where I decided to take off my headphones and do a group fitness class.
Apologies for the long post, but your “running group” suggestion motivated me to share my story. Take off your headphones and join a fitness group! It’s a twofer as you’ll also get in great shape.
I can go one step further. I was a part time fitness instructor. I taught at one particular gym 3 days a week. It was very much our social circle. We would meet there for class, train for runs, run charity races at different places at least once per month, we went to each others weddings, etc. It was my most fun group as an adult.
Then life happened in 2012. I got married and moved to the other side of the metro area and couldn’t find time to teach anymore and soon after “something” happened and my asthma flared up and it took over a year to recover and then other long standing physical issues started becoming more prominent.
But most fitness classes were mostly female. Mine was different since my choreography was simple and athletic. We were also all single or both the husband and wife would come. It would be seen as creepy as a male to try to make “friends” with women I met at the gym especially now at 50 and myself being married.
Ironically enough, my wife is involved in the fitness industry now and I meet a lot of couples via her friends.
Anyway, I started back training for runs earlier this year and will be joining running clubs.
Glad to hear you started training. Same here after some health issues.
> It would be seen as creepy as a male to try to make “friends” with women
Not sure why you or anyone would think that. In my case also it was nearly all women. But they approached me - because they are a social and welcoming group. I was married at the time. It wasn't a flirty thing at all. But it did result is a different friendship situation in that most of my friends were female. But trust me they make most excellent friends. Not afraid to share their feelings and listen to yours, and to say "I love you".
Women naturally have their “creep factor” on at the gym. It was easy when I was the instructor and it was a group of us doing things just to invite one more person.
OP here. I'll write a post longer than yours, haha. Same story. Lonely at home - married to a loving but non-friend-compatible wife. Showed up to my local running group, kept showing up.
"After running and talking to someone for hours, you are no longer strangers."
Long, phone free, distraction free, interruption free, no-pressure, no "ask", no "work-relationship" to preserve, you're both sweaty, spitting, farting, drinking, exhausted, but proud of yourself and the others who are kicking butt that moring as well... I imagine it's why soldiers bond so well - shared adversity.
If you're a lonely geek reading this, a running group is an easy formula for friends. I've lived in the same town for 17 years - joining the running group and meeting others made it feel like home instead of just the place that I lived. Random streets and neighbourhoods aren't just "over there" they're now "Bob lives there". Going out for a run and getting honked at, or driving around for errands and honking at friends is just good fun.
---
I don't usually journal, but this day was an adventure with friends, something I hadn't had since Grade 7 until 40+... Just an embellished story about a drive out to someone's house, a run down a country road and the animals that we saw on the way. Being included and having fun had been missing from my life for too long.
Dec 28, 2022 I met J at my friend K's house and went on a road-trip to meet other friends; to climb mountains, descend valleys, fight off wild dogs, scare cows, dodging killer (wheeled) beasts, and run with horses, ending with Irish cream whiskey around a bartop table.
IME, everything in SF that young people might want to go to is packed full of young people who made reservations a couple of weeks in advance. Not a lot of venues for drop-in occasions that accommodate 6-20 people dipping in and out.
Edit: I can sort of imagine this happening at a bar with an unusually big patio, like SF's Zeitgeist. Not that Zeitgeist has a huge patio, it's just huge for the area. And if this gathering was always at a bar, I wouldn't go much, because I have a ton of trouble hearing people in bars.
I have been tempted to look into this, I'll admit. I remember when I used to do Sunday youth group every week as a kid. If I could find a local one that just had a regular board game night or something I'd probably be down to give it a try.
If you find a traditional church to be a bit too heavy-handed on some current wedge issues for your liking, you might find a Unitarian Universalist church to be more like what you describe.
I have met most of my friends through church. I have a board game group that meets every Monday night (best night for all of us) and everyone there first got to know each other at church.
This resonates with me. I found a group of folks I loosely knew in my neighborhood, and started doing an informal "Tuesday Night Dinner". There's about a dozen of us, and on any given week about 6-7 will get together, usually at someone's house, and do a potluck-style dinner. If people are busy, we do a "no pressure" takeout night, but the point is we do _something_ every Tuesday night. We've missed maybe a half dozen weeks in the past 2 years, and lots of folks have become friends outside of the group as well. It's been probably the single most enjoyable thing about the last few years living in Seattle
I think a weekly hang is really nice. My best friend and I would walk on Sunday morning. Did it for 8+ years until he fell ill and passed away. I really miss those Sundays.
This is ultimately what I discovered. Friends with groups are superficial, you really only have one or two real friends but the superficial friendships formed with large groups is actually more important for your mental health simply because humans are designed to live and interact this way.
Historically, humans lived in tribal groups where they're in constant contact with a large but cohesive group of people. So in terms of anthropology this is the more natural way.
For a while, that was my strategy to cultivate a social life: organizing brunches with 6-10 former teammates and acquaintances.
As social occasions, the brunches didn't lead to anything in my life. The guests made extremely generic smalltalk. I don't know if anyone had fun. I didn't get invited to anything else in those people's lives.
I was kind of glad that COVID killed the brunches because of how fruitless they were.
I get the idea that spending time one on one can turn into giving each other life updates instead of a more intimate exchange. But group events can also be really shallow and demotivating.
Is "couples" the reason? I (implicitly, no idea why now that you bring it up) read the other descriptions of weeklies as not-with-partner events. Perhaps not strictly not-with-partner, but default without.
"Couples" puts everybody in involuntary performance mode. It starts super harmless, the "and" element (the side in a couple that came along) having a natural desire to be good with the friends of their partner (the "and" side is prone to greatly overestimate the depth of the relationship that lead to the invite!), the other side (the one that had the "link") trying to make their partner feel good with that group. So far so good, everybody does the reasonable thing, sounds super nice. But that very same thing happens within every couple, nobody in the room who isn't in "prove myself to my partner" mode. Before you know it escalates into a take-no-prisoners battle of showing off which couple functions best. It's certainly possible with couples despite all this, but there is infinitely more that could go wrong along the way.
Yeah, maybe. I never discovered the secret of sending invitations that radiated "please don't bring your partner." Brunch is, after all, an activity for mostly women and couples.
Yeah, girl's night/guy's night does come with a certain expectation, or a stigma even. And is not a brunch. In Germany we actually have an established brunch time event class that literally translates to "morning pint" and, well, your imaginations are probably spot on. The safe path to not couple-centric is usually some form of hobby which tend to lean of gender or the other. And those who defy the gender stereotype will most likely be sufficiently deep into whatever it is to not fall into couple validation mode. But hobby-type pastimes that are also inviting to the noninitiated are indeed rare.
It is. OP probably isn't thinking(or cares about, if I were to be cynical) about the people in the group who are peer-pressured into joining (by some of their other 'friends' probably) and are just anxious/awkward throughout but can't/don't want to say anything.
I haven't experienced anyone in my friend group being pressured by others to join into group activities, and I'm pretty perceptive about interpersonal issues.
More commonly what I've seen happen is occasionally two people I'm friends with don't get along with each other, and have negative feelings coming to events/hangs where the other person will be there.
There's nothing wrong with having meaningful 1-on-1 connections. But how many of those can you really have in your life, simultaneously?
Read the other comments on this article, and there are so many men in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ saying that they have a partner, a sibling or two, and 0-2 friends, and that's enough, they feel saturated and don't want anymore friends. In my opinion, this is because they're treating every relationship as if it has to be the highest level of meaningful 1-on-1 connection.
I'm super duper close to my brother, my girlfriend, my mom, and to one high school buddy of mine, to the point where we talk for hours a week, every week. Beyond that, I have lots of friends, literally several dozen friends, many of whom I absolutely love, and who I've gotten super vulnerable with, who feel comfortable dropping by unannounced. But I don't make a big deal out of needing to hang out with them 1-on-1 all the time.
I know that the friend I'm hanging out with will get my jokes - inside jokes, weird humor etc. Now I have to worry about an entire group, some of whom may not like my humor, and now I have to put on the 'you're in public, be brusque and minimal' anxiety filled mask, and can't open up as I would in 1-1 or 1-2 with a friend or just a couple of friends.
Now add that to other people invited who may feel the same way. Maybe they're only comfortable with that one or two friends they hang out with, and not the rest of us they don't know.
Groups aren't my thing sadly. Nor, I assume, are a thing for many young people.
This is a weird persective for me, who mostly hangs out in groups. I've never thought about having to impress each individual member of the group at once or that I should be brusque; I dont even know what that means. And we have plenty of inside jokes and weird humor.
I am firmly in GP's camp, but I think this difference has more to do with introverted vs extroverted personality types than weird vs. not weird perspectives. Some people find it hard to express themselves in group environment because group environments tend to be highly competitive for 'air time', at which introverts are at a great disadvantage.
I don't agree. I'm pretty introverted and that's one reason group environments are better. You can talk less and take a break from even paying attention more easily than 1-on-1.
>And we have plenty of inside jokes and weird humor.
You've never had a person or two in the group that was sensitive?
>I've never thought about having to impress each individual member
It's not about 'impressing everyone.' It's more about being conscious that everyone may be listening to your comments and/or judging you. This gets worse the more anxious person you are, and/or if you were an introvert.
I don't think it's a great idea to tell those people to 'get over it' either as we used to in the 80s.
When you are meeting up a large group, you aren't usually talking to everyone at all time, small clusters or 1:1 usually form and disappear naturally and organically during the time of a meetup.
"...things played out exactly as described by the article -- some of them hit it off, became friends with each other, and started initiating invites and events without me"
Groups is an important point I think, preferably based on a common interest. I'm fortunate in that I'm a tabletop gamer, and as it's an inherently social activity I've always been able to find a roleplaying games group or club wherever I've moved.
I'd be interested if there are any other hobbies or interests that have a similar built in social component?
Poker! I had an awesome group of poker friends in SF, maybe 10-12 of us who'd play regularly, although on any given weekend it'd only be 4-8 who'd show up. We'd sit around a table playing poker for hours and hours, and after half a year, we were pretty close!
An introverts nightmare is to meet random folks along with other and without a purpose.Call a spade a spade, its a group event and that itself is even harder than 1-1 hang.
What you describe is social anxiety, not introversion.
Introverted people without social anxiety exist. I'm one of them. I have no fear of meeting new people and the like, but social situations exhaust me more quickly than others and I need alone-time to recharge.
There's an easy lifehack to get around it: host parties and introduce your friends to one another. I've done it multiple times in the past, and there's at least two married couples that I've introduced to each other.
I have found that making friends around a hobby or activity is quite easy even as an adult .. Throwing yourself into a hobby (photography, pickle ball, boardgames, running, etc.) and you will meet people who love that hobby and throw them selves into it completely .. They will talk to you for hours about it .. If you are a nice person and just ask for help, people will be available to help you in your journey .. In those groups, you will likely find a few people to start developing a friendship with .. I think it takes the risky and scary part of making friends away as it just feels like hanging out until you find those persons you click with
In addition, hangouts are just more fun with more people
Love everything you said.
Additionally: when you're hanging out in a group, you avoid those awkward situations where some people (or their partners!) might be wondering if it was a potential "date" kind of situation.
An an introvert I have a different experience. When I am with a larger group, people start talking to each other about subjects that don't really interest me, and I tend to switch to listening mode, not interacting much with anyone. I can converse for hours with one person, however.
Yes, yes you are uncool. You are probably a nerd who likes to talk about topics of interest, rather than people and social matters.
Nerds are much more interesting, really. They’ve spent enough time on things they are obsessed about to have something to discuss. It’s not all “kids, schooling, housing, weather”. My favourite thing is to meet a nerd with an obsession outside of my own, as there is so much to learn.
Those will automatically not be my friends. Anyone who cares about sports (especially televised) or celebrities can go sit somewhere else. Or religion. Helps immensely with filtering as it usually is one of the first things you find out.
Talking nerd stuff is nicer and as such I only have nerds as friends and I married one, but there is no shortage of them. So far I made friends at any age (I am in my 50s).
adults grow increasingly specific while resonating decreasingly less with the masses. same reason it's hard to make a good rap music - too much way too specific words in it
I have no friends. I moved again in the last year. I have my brother, my parents, and my wife.
It’s really hard to make good quality friends. Honestly, I couldn’t be bothered right now to invest that kind of time and effort.
I hope that changes one day, but at this rate I’ll probably make friends among the parents of my kids friends one day. I just have other priorities now. I’m content, and I have a solid marriage. It’s fine for now.
Go to meetup.com. Find a weekly meetup in your area that matches one of your interests (or start one). Go to that meetup every week. Within a couple months you'll be friends with the regulars. I've done this in two cities and I'm still long distance friends with the people I met in the first city. It only takes a couple hours per week and for your mental health you should be getting out for social activities anyway. Go do it now, you'll be happy that you did.
Where do you live? I’ve always seen people rave about meetup but most of the time when I’ve downloaded it’s filled mostly with scammy crap (MLM groups and similar business schemes), “entrepreneurs” trying to “network” and hyper specific demographic groups (40+ singles hiking group or whatever)
When I lived in LA I went to a beach dodgeball meetup organized by Herbalife MLM "health coaches". It was actually a rather positive experience. I biked out three mornings a week for many months, and played dodgeball and then did high intensity exercises in the sand. Afterward I would go to their gym and pay $5 for a protein shake, and socialize with an eclectic bunch of people completely unlike me. I lost 40lb, could do 100 pull ups, and I could buy the outfit off a dummy at Macy's and look good.
One girl had "dibs" on me regarding the MLM scheme. She eventually got a bit irritated that I never signed up, but I still managed to integrate myself into their social circle for a good while. I even went to one of their conferences, just out of curiosity.
A good number of the people I met were actually quite interesting, but had some unsatisfied aspect of their life. The combination of community and intense exercise was healthy for them, even if they were
spending their time futilely trying to sell supplements.
Man, I have been approached by guys like this, we have a good conversation, then they try to sell me something. The last few times someone has struck up a conversation with me out of nowhere it was to try and sell me something. I go to the gym every other day during lunch. Been doing it for years. Literally the only people that have ever talked to me were these MLM bros.
It made me feel profoundly sad the last time it happened. I don't know why really, but the fact that no one would ever talk to me unless they wanted to sell me something was just a hard thing to take.
So hearing that you hung out with these guys on purpose is fascinating to me. It all seems so contrived and artificial, but it seems you got something out of it at least. Did you end up making any real connections?
Since my experience feeling sad though I have tried to say hi and strike up conversations with strangers when it feels appropriate. People may be put off by it occasionally, but it's nice to connect with people, even if it's only briefly.
I can't say I really made any deep friendships, but they were fun "fair weather friends" to go to the bar with in my 20's. I'd say about half the people involved in that crowd were vapid. The other half were misfits desperate for a community. I myself appreciated the intense social focus on health and exercise, and the radical diversity of thought compared to my work social circle. At the time I was relatively dissatisfied with the types of projects getting dumped on me at work, and I was lonely from lack of meaningful relationships. So, it was a great way to tweak my work-life balance and avoid depression.
I think I was able to assimilate myself into their group because of my utter lack of agenda. I was as foreign to them as they were to me, but I was easy to talk to because I would offer a sympathetic ear or a witty joke rather than claim to have a lucrative nutritional solution. I also think there was some aspect of novelty to it that they enjoyed. I was the guy whose day job was making rocket ships, hanging out and taking an interest in their lives.
Here's something to keep in mind about those bros approaching you in the gym. It's a hustle, but they aren't trying to scam you. They're likely being genuine within the framework of their own life experiences. They've been taught that selling to strangers is their path to success. They are the foot soldiers in an army, following orders trickling down from ruthless generals aware the soldiers are probably going to die. When I went to that Herbalife convention, there were 2000 young people in a hotel conference hall all frantically taking notes. From my perspective, though, the speakers said nothing of substantial meaning. It was 100% affirmation. Thousands of pens writing it all down in notebooks. It was quite amazing for me to experience. If you're curious, next time someone like that approaches you at the gym, maybe give them the benefit of the doubt? Don't sign up for their MLM obviously, but don't be afraid of them either. If you're into protein shakes, throw $20 cash their way so they can move some inventory. If not, then politely decline. Either way, when you wrap up the conversation, ask them for their names again and give them a fist bump. Next time you see them in the gym, ask them for a spot, or say hi and just ask how the hustle is going. Embrace them as gym bros, and enjoy their company.
The girl that made the meetup posting was a single mother that had gotten pregnant as a teenager. She was trying to get out from being dependent on her own parents, and was focused on getting back into shape for the "bikini pageant" circuit she used to participate in. She was always friendly to me, but we had pretty much zero in common, and she obviously hoped I would join the MLM. She invited me to her birthday party and nobody talked about nutritional supplements there, so I think we were friends.
Her roommate Carlos was tall, handsome and ripped, and many of the girls in the group seemed to swoon for him. He also seemed like a genuinely friendly guy, if not a bit mysterious, and while we never had any memorable conversations, it was always nice to just quietly hang out in a dive bar on a Tuesday night and play pool or darts.
There was one guy that moved to LA to become an actor and comedian, but he worked as a waiter. When he first arrived he was pudgy and physically weak and lacked confidence. He was obsessed with one of the more seemingly vapid but gorgeous girls. She had him wrapped around her finger, but she obviously had her own eyes on Carlos. He was great entertainment when drunk, due to the self-awareness of his own mediocrity and his inherent desire to entertain. By the time I lost contact with him, he was lean and muscular, and successfully working as a Harry Potter look-a-like for hire.
There was a notably short girl who I thought had a quick wit and weird sense of humor. She seemed incapable of making any deep connections with anyone, though, because she was hung up bad...
In my city, well outside the US, there are friendship groups, dating groups, pub crawl groups, single parent groups, hiking and walking groups, Unreal programming, devops etc.
You have to search a bit for what you're looking for rather than just use the default suggestions it makes from your interests.
I live in a city of about 100k people and there are a couple of groups that match my interests. If there wasn't, I would just make one, and I might make one anyway.
The idea is to make a weekly group for one of your hobbies, maybe you like to play basketball (for example sake). That way, if nobody shows up, that's fine, you were going to work on your free throws anyway. If 1 person shows up, now you can play 1-1. If 2 people show up you can play horse, etc.
Ditto. My local meetup.com is MLM, networking, pub crawls, new age mumbo jumbo, self-help/therapy, and niche demographics.
Where the hell are the normal people? Where can I find folks into morning jogs, woodworking, sailing, road trips, 3d printing, burritos, and international travel?
A while back my partner and I went out on a hike. We passed a group of people and one of them continued on with us. We were confused why she stuck with us, but tried to be friendly anyway. After a while we realized that it was a meetup group, and the lady thought we were just part of it.
Weekly meetup? Goodness! All the marginally interesting meetups in my area are monthly or less. I specifically started a twice-monthly one myself because it was so grim. (And no, I'm not very happy with my own meetup, either.)
Pretty much the only exception to the monthly cadence is hiking meetups, which in my area are dominated by retirees and midlife singles. I've tried them, I wouldn't keep trying.
From my experience, weekly is important for a couple of reasons:
1. That's the cadence that most people's life runs on. It's easier to schedule and remember something that happens every Wednesday, than every other Wednesday.
2. You actually start to feel like friends with people fairly quickly when you see them weekly. It feels like a good balance between space and closeness for strangers to start becoming friends.
Starting a meetup is hard. If there's something relatively popular or trendy with the demographic of people you're hoping to make friends with, that might be something that will attract more people to your meetup quickly (AI, board games, investing, etc).
Even if you only get 1-2 great people to become regulars, you can cancel the meetup and still meet with them every week.
I'm happier with way fewer friends. Being an adult and not being forced to interact with people who don't share much in common with me significantly improved my life.
My daughter is 4 and in the last year I've started hanging out with a few other dads from her preschool. It's been fun knocking back a beer while the kids go feral. I appreciate the diversity of thought vs. spending my days talking with coworkers. It definitely takes effort on everyone's part to follow through on plans, and having a supportive spouse helps.
Maybe your putting to much emphasis on good and quality and filtering them?
Like you already know friends come and go. Who cares if they're good and quality(ok to some degree... but the average person isn't immoral) As long as you can hang out and do something you should be good. They're friends, your not having a kid with them.
I think when we were younger, well me atleast, there was a huge emphasis on dont be popular, small amounts of good friends are better then having lots of friends . thats probably good advice for a ten year old struggling with self esteem. But as an adult? Who cares, be friends with everyone. If you really can't stand them, they'll be gone before you know it, just like the good ones.
If someone doesn't have any longterm friends, that is a problem. You can rationalize how it's "normal" all you want, but you are missing out on something wonderful. These days too many people don't have a sense of loyalty or know how to be a friend
Look at the five or six people closest to you. That’s where your life is going. Friends have a huge influence over how we develop as humans, it is critically important that you choose friends with whom you would be happy if you ended up like them. So I’m very picky about who I’m friends with. I can be friendly to everyone, but friends with a select few.
It really isn’t hard. Everyone is so devoid of human contact, if you’re willing to put 6 months of effort you can do it
Edit: you really only need to find one, maybe two people and be okay just pushing it by asking people to do stuff. You'd be surprised how willing people are to do anything. Just start asking. It's also hard bc we (in america) design our cities very poorly
> continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability
So... become a regular at local restaurants, random coffee shops, bars, clubs, farmer's markets, parks, hiking trails, start a band, volunteer somewhere, join a gym, travel, etc.
> So... become a regular at local restaurants, random coffee shops, bars, clubs, farmer's markets, parks, hiking trails, start a band, volunteer somewhere, join a gym, travel, etc.
Maybe this used to work, but it no longer does. I'm a regular at several local hangouts, hit the gym several days a week, and go out to other activities regularly. I rarely have conversations with anyone beyond perfunctory pleasantries with the staff. Neither does anyone else; since COVID people almost exclusively stick to themselves or the group they came with.
There's been the odd occasion where I do get someone's contact info like the article suggests. So I text and the conversation tends to be some variation of "I'm busy the next couple of weeks, I'll text when I can hang out!" Of course they never do. Following up yields the same result and also reeks of desperation, so I no longer do that.
Meanwhile people seem to regard friendships as disposable lately. Within the past year I've been repeatedly ghosted and excluded from activities by longstanding friends for some perceived offense that I only found out about secondhand weeks later. Apologizing had no effect, and I regret doing it.
So now, I have almost no friends in my current town aside from my spouse, and rather than continue on with this charade we have decided to move back east - where probably the cycle will repeat itself, but at least in a more familiar environment where socializing is slightly easier.
> since COVID people almost exclusively stick to themselves or the group they came with.
I’ve noticed the same thing. I used to go out a lot, loved to out talk to people, maybe a party a bit. Sometimes I’d go with a group, often times I’d go out alone. It used to be pretty common if you were alone on a weekend, someone would invite you to come sit and chat with them.
Post-covid though I’ve pretty much stopped going out. People seem more antisocial outside of their insular groups, at least compared to pre-covid. The “friend” group I was part of imploded because of petty drama and nowadays, the only thing I get from going out alone is a bad hangover the next day.
> almost exclusively stick to themselves or the group they came with
Yes I've noticed this too, but what does "stick to themselves" mean? If you mean someone sitting alone I don't think that's much different from what you might look like to them. Say hello or smile. Never know.
Also, even when people are in groups they might be open to one more. People usually aren't that insular unless they're jerks anyway. Worst that can happen is they ignore you which is better than assuming. Yeah it's rougher out there than it used to be, but that makes it all the better when you do click with people. I feel like the current climate has more opportunity for genuine connections than it was before covid when people were posing and fronting all the time.
I concur. I'm at every local cafe, to the point that the baristas recognize my order, and I'm at the gym at the same time most days of the week. After gym, I go to the supermarket next to it to buy some fruit or a drink, and the cashiers recognize me. I'm also in a bunch of local meetups.
This has not led to any organic conversation that could lead to something deeper.
I have a theory that most of us have become far more introverted than we realize.
A good friend of mine is very high on the extraversion scale. There is not a shred of introversion in him beyond him spending part of his free time studying philosophy. He has the ability to strike up long conversations with seemingly anyone, anywhere, anytime. This has been true before COVID, during COVID, and after COVID. What does he do? He simply starts talking to people. It can be about just about anything, though usually he will start conversations by making an observation or a light-hearted joke relevant to the situation. He will even ask people he doesn't know their opinion on something that's relevant to the situation. One might assume this strategy must blow up in his face with some frequency, but I've never seen that happen. Is it any coincidence that he has many friends and half the town seems to know him? I don't think so.
There's nothing he does that any of us can't do. It's not as if he is super handsome or well dressed. I do agree that people these days, depending on the region, have developed a tendency to stick to themselves, be soft-spoken, and not initiate anything. That doesn't mean people don't desire for someone to break up the monotony, even if they think they want to always be by themselves and not be bothered. By my observation, most people aren't bothered, and the ones who are will play along anyway. While others certainly put up a barrier, many of us who actively desire more human contact may not realize how much of a barrier that we put up ourselves.
Eventually, enough people need to acknowledge that putting up a barrier sucks, and that's got to start somewhere.
There are not "get to know people" places, at least in places where I lived. You go to restaurant with people you already know, you dont just walk to table with someone you dont know to talk. Same with: random coffee shops, bars, clubs, hiking trails, farmer's markets and gym.
Parks are an exception ... if you have toddler with you.
The article is right that intentionality in relationships is critical. I think it's a commonly romanticized view that relationships shouldn't feel like "work" if they're good relationships, but I think that view does a disservice to the effort that goes into building a deep and fulfilling connection. Lifelong connections don't happen by accident.
I also agree with csallen's comment. Introducing my friends to each other was one of my projects for last year and its made my whole world closer and more convenient. Now if I ever want to see a movie, have a day in the park, have a dinner I know I can make a general invitation and whoever is free and interested can show up and, because they already know each other, everyone will have a great time.
If you trust your friends to see in each other (or at least respect) what you see in each of them individually and if they're mature adults, there should be no issue with introducing people to each other. This practice has been a good way for me to re-examine some of my own unconscious biases about which of my friends would get along with one another based on superficial qualities (such as their occupations or backgrounds) and I've been pleasantly surprised by the friendships that have blossomed out of the introductions I've made.
As a side note, I still identify as an introvert and still get the most fulfillment out of 1:1 conversations. I don't think you need to be an extrovert to hang out in groups or be the social glue in your world. I was inspired to start introducing friends to one another because I realized how grateful I was - as an introvert - when I first moved to a new city and one of the friends I made was super welcoming and inclusive with their friends. It made me want to serve in that role myself and I'm so glad I got over my shyness and anxiety. I think if you approach adult relationships with intentionality you'll often be surprised by how receptive people are - I find most people have a desire to make new friends, but they're often afraid to take the first initiative.
> it's a commonly romanticized view that relationships shouldn't feel like "work" if they're good relationships
But I've already got a job and other life chores to deal with day in and day out that are stressful and exhausting. What's the point of friendship if it's just more of the same?
Sometimes I do think I want friends. Then I read threads like this and I'm not so sure.
The article does not mention how immigrants can make friends. Not all but most natives treat immigrants as outsiders. I get it that you are more likely to be friends with someone who is similar to you. If it was difficult for a city girl to make friends with people who look like her but grew up in a different location, I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for immigrants who don't look the same, have a different accent and grew up in a different culture. People living in big cities like NY, San Francisco may have a few friends from a different country but that is not representative of the entire population of immigrants. Also, I like to think that the nature of friendships is entirely different depending on where you grew up. The North American definition of a friend is very different from an Indian definition of a friend. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's difficult enough to start over in a new country all by yourself and making friends is even more difficult than that.
I moved from Korea to NZ. And I’m recently trying out Japan. I think it can be _easier_ to make friends as an immigrant that looks different (as long as you can speak their language) as there will always be people who are interested in different cultures.
Though I have found that it can be quite hard to become close friends but it’s definitely possible.
Language is a major factor, yes. Another factor I think is whether you come from a “welcomed” country. Under the current chaotic world order, it’s not hard to come up with a few countries that are not welcomed almost anywhere (Disclaimer: I come from one of them).
But still, start with some people that are close with you, either at work or in private, and try to expand that circle to larger / more diverse groups. The rule of making friends still apply for immigrants, it’s just a bit harder than natives.
> Another factor I think is whether you come from a “welcomed” country.
Definitely a factor. My wife is not Asian and she gets way more opportunities than me to make friends in Japan, though it is a double edged sword as being treated differently can get really annoying after a while.
> as being treated differently can get really annoying after a while
Yes, I can relate. I am blind, and 90% of all the interactions I have with strangers in public spaces are drenched in pity and patronisation. Being special sucks!
I am honestly curious, what countries do you refer to when you say not-welcomed countries? The first thing that came to mind was Germany, but I am guessing you were not talking about that...
Never forget that hostilities towards people from specific countries is a rather subjective phenomenon. What is religion to one person, is completely unacceptable to others.
in china for example white people are very welcome, black people not so much.
in europe white people can blend in, so even if they are not welcome they will not be rejected. but people that look different and have a different culture are looked upon suspiciously.
not everyone is doing this of course, it's very subtle, and fortunately there are also open minded people
There's still a lot of hatred towards Middle Eastern people because 'they're all terrorists', although it seems to me that has died down a bit. From the posts of a local Arab woman I'm friends with on Facebook, it still seems pretty bad here, just not quite as blatant anymore.
Chinese hate ramped up again since 2020, with all the talk about them being the enemy of the US on the right and many people blaming the country for Covid-19.
And while I think most people try not to hold anything against the Russian people for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, (especially Russians that have left the country), there will quite a few that won't. I can imagine if you're Ukranian you probably will struggle to be friendly with any Russian right now, for example.
I live in germany and work in an international company. I am the only german on my team. A lot of the younger colleagues blame their difficulties on making friends on german racism and stay in their expat circles, but the truth is: it's hard for everyone here.
I'm an expat (immigrant?) in Germany. IME expat circles are a problem in itself. People who cling to them end up leaving much quicker than people who mingle with natives, or mingle with people from other nationalities. Not only you don't make long-term friends in those circles (because people are constantly leaving the country), but there's a lot of negativity and shit talking. You need to at least make an attempt to adapt, and those circles can be a replacement to that.
it mirrors a bit the experience I had in university with foreign students/phd students. Some immigrants are only friends with immigrants from the same country and it was surprising to hear that after spending years (sometimes BSc/Msc/Phd or Work) they are completely unable to say a single word in german, have no german friends etc. Usually very unapproachable und uncomfortable to talk to.
Others with mixed groups of friends were way more approachable, I was surprised by some how well they are able to speak the language after just a few years.
I live in a very international big German city, so we have plenty of expats. But what I notice is that they are generally shy to approach others, initiating contact or driving the conversation actively. They also tend to stick together in expat groups. So it's a turn off for me if I have to carry the conversation. It's easy to blame the people for shrugging off immigrants but I feel it's their duty to check the local concepts and expectations for communication and relationships.
I also feel that this is generally only true for non-western immigrants. Never had any problems with aussies or americans.
I also agree that making friends is very hard in Germany, but absolutely doable. My life hack: use "Neu in $city" facebook groups, go to boulder gyms and be open minded, smile and take initiative. Talk to people! And then build groups, as mentioned in the top comment (atm).
Well, germany seems to be rather special. I already know two couples personally that moved from my home country to germany, only to come back after some years again. They both tell the same story: It was almost impossible to find friends, and the outright hostility against foreigners can be felt.
as I noticed,the people that from China are always tend to hang on with same culture and the same language,many of them,even have much more effect in social media, are still only in the mandarin speaker group
it's easier, but for me it defeats the purpose of visiting or living in a different country. so i prefer to stay away from expat groups. fortunately the local linux user groups or other tech groups in the places i have been to had more locals or a mix of locals and foreigners, and i was able to make a few very good local friends that way.
I would be very interested in hearing/reading more about the Indian definition of a friend VS North American. I've seen what you describe, but for me, I personally relish the opportunity to be the person someone calls when they need help, and also to show someone what I enjoy about a city. I'm much less good at just hanging out or reaching out.
For what it's worth, I lived for a while in Russia and friendship is different there, too.
I'm talkative, outgoing and pretty funny in real life. I think I can say that people generally enjoy my company.
But I only have about three friends, and I see them maybe four times a year.
I really get along with my coworkers and enjoy their company at work. My wife thinks I should make more friends.
But the truth is (and I suspect this is pretty common with HN'ers), I don't want more friends!
Because in addition to those three friends, there's siblings, siblings-in-law, husbands of siblings-in-law, parents, parents-in-law, cousins, my wife's friends, my wife's friends' husbands, etc etc. And they all wanna see you!
That, plus of course spending time with my lovely wife/daughter (which I love to do), leaves not much alone-time to explore all the awesome stuff you can do in this world. Play guitar. Read a great piece of literature. Learn to draw. Learn Blender. Build some furniture. Grow a fruit tree. Grow five fruit trees. Keep a hot compost pile (more amazing to see than you'd think). Write a shitty piece of music. Learn to weld. Lift weights. Run.
There's just so much great stuff to do. I like people, they're great. But I guard my alone-time like a precious gemstone.
I have met a few guys who wanted to strike up a friendship. I only have room in my outer orbit, unfortunately. This is even after some friends moved further out. I would like more room in my life for Me, not other people.
There's a lot of people I like quite a lot, and significant obligatory-connections about. But gee man, I'd trade in a ton of these connections of solid friends/relations for people whose values I can more clearly recognize & that reflect my own obsessive geek interests than I could comfortably admit in real life. The really good people are not in high supply.
I find again and again a real & immediate need to work hard to connect the very good folk, to get those with deep interests talking. Many just bow out to the mundane. So be it for them, but it's a loss to see very high intellectual potential just inundate itself among the norm.
Same sentiment exactly. Not to sound rude, but I don't -want- more friends, and it feels bad rejecting people who reach out. I already feel like there aren't enough hours in a day, and selfishly want to hoard my time to myself.
My wife and I are polar opposites in that regard. She can never seem to have enough friends, and they talk often. I think one big difference is how people are with nothingness. Because no matter how busy our day is, there's always periods of downtime...on a bus, on a walk, before bed, etc.
For example, I could sit in a chair and stare at nothing for a long time and not get bored. Mind always wondering, planning, thinking. She on the other hand gets bored and stir crazy in short order. And having people to reach out to chat with is a good cure for that.
I'm not suggesting one is better than the other, of course, just another difference in people.
All of that is to say, people like us who at least -say- we don't want more friends make it harder for people seeking, by removing ourselves from the pool so to speak. And I'd imagine between marriages, kids, work, etc... there's a lot of us like that.
We introverts have an easy life with ourselves, completely at peace with oneself, never bored. Extroverts dread this, they need external stimulus to feel alive, alone they get bored and depressed quickly. Hand in hand with that go things like imagination, alone you simply have much more time to train it.
As I grew up, I realized how stupid and immature it is to try to blend with the rest of the crowd, where extroverts naturally stick out and introverts feel like they are doing something wrong and should emulate more visible ones. Embrace yourself as you are, focus on aspects you don't like yourself but enjoy the rest, it can be a real strength if you use it well.
Friends and family are one aspect of it, but also how you approach hobbies, traveling etc. Ie my extroverty boss can't simply go to gym, he has to go with some friend. So he goes rarely and he sucks in it. Bunch of friends simply can't travel alone, while I repeatedly explained to them that ie backpacking around the world alone is extremely positive and character-building experience that can't be achieved in any other way. So eventually one of them went, but for 2 weeks only to effin' Singapore and not a step further, to hang out with former colleague for 2 weeks. While having amazing places to keep discovering all around him, or ie jumping on a plane to Bali/Lombok/Gili islands for a week.
> Ie my extroverty boss can't simply go to gym, he has to go with some friend
I would venture to suggest even that your boss can't simply go to the gym because he doesn't actually want to go to the gym. He wants to socialise inside a gym.
I remember at some point (as an introvert) my mental model of extroverts flipped and I suddenly began to see them not as super humans but almost like disabled people. Unable to function independently because of a severe deficit in their mental makeup that makes them unable to sustain happiness without supplementary support from presence of other individuals. I still envy them in certain ways but now I have a much more balanced view of it than when I was younger and I really felt like something was wrong with me.
Unless you mean that you eventually grew out of the view that extroverts “suffer from severe deficit in their mental makeup”, I wouldn’t call your position “balanced” at all. You’ve just swung from one extreme to another.
I don’t know you, but I have a feeling that you’ll eventually come to understand “extroverts” better than this.
One thing I learned from reading Jung and not just the MBTI stuff based on his work is his core distinction between introversion and extroversion:
Introverts have an inner model of the world. Extroverts rely directly on the world.
It doesn’t mean that extroverts like people more or that introverts necessarily prefer being alone. It’s just that for extroverts, when nothing external is happening it’s like a little death. And for introverts, we need down time to reconcile our inner model with all of the day’s external stimulation.
Not OP but I really enjoyed Jung's: Memories, Dreams, and Reflections. I haven't read any of the rest of his work so I really can't say if this is the best place to start with him but being totally new to Jung, I took a lot away from this book. The book touches on many of his theories and gives you an idea of the arc of his life which is nice but also provides great insight into Jung's inner world which is what I found most fascinating about the book. I've never read anything else quite like it.
I believe the book introducing his theory of introversion/extraversion was Psychological Types based on his own clinical research. It's a theory, not a law.. :-)
But certainly extroverts must have an inner model world, otherwise how can they have a System 2 or do any kind of analytical thinking? Or is it that they do have one but only engage it when actively trying to solve a problem?
This definition of introvert seems closer to the term "need for cognition".
My old friends and I share a common history that goes way back. We were dumb teens in the 70's and 80's and so have a shared experience of those decades and that stupid shit we did.
We act as foils for one another — how one friend turned out differently than another while coming from the same background.
And also, and more importantly as we age, old friends remind us that we have more in common despite those ways in which we turned out differently. Money and status fall by the wayside when you get past 50.
The reason that I've lost so many friendships in the past decade is exactly what you're saying: friendships are not a priority for the average person who is gainfully employed, married with kids, maybe has pets, and also has social obligations to their relatives.
For someone in your position, maintaining friendships is always going to be the lowest priority item, on a neverending list of responsibilities and social expectations.
That's one thing that frustrates me about American society. People who are married with kids are insanely busy, with a robust and built-in social network, whether it's through interactions with relatives, or even making friends with other parents through sporting events, etc.
It's tough for the rest of us. Obviously there is no quick fix to this problem, but for now I'm able to fill some social needs through meetups and other social events. I'll probably also get a pet eventually.
> People who are married with kids are insanely busy, with a robust and built-in social network, whether it's through interactions with relatives, or even making friends with other parents through sporting events, etc.
Grass is always greener on the other side, and busy does not mean someone has friends.
That's one thing that frustrates me about American society.
I see nothing particularly American about that - all you've described happens in all 3 countries I lived in (Israel, Austria & Germany) and I'm sure this is pretty usual world-wide.
If you get a dog and walk it or take it to the dog park you will meet people there.
There's also group training classes like basic obedience and agility.
Be warned though, dogs, in general, require a lot of attention and some even need jobs.
I think this is the answer for me. You kind of want friends, but at the same time you don't want to have to put any obligations or effort in and definitely don't want to feel forced to hang out with them.
I think we want the kind of friends who would be fine with a quarterly meetup for a fun activity, and little contact or obligation outside of that time.
I sort of agree. I don't want a larger number of friends, but I do crave having deep relationships with people that (currently) I don't really have.
Those infrequent hangs where it's primarily a catch-up and then go about your daily routine are OK, but unsatisfying. Like you, I have a handful of those friends that I catch up with and I care about them, but they're not really part of my day-to-day life.
What I want (and miss) are deeper relationships where I see / communicate with someone often and have strong shared interests. There were a few periods where I had those level of friendships and it was really great. For instance, about 10 years ago I was part of an art group that met at least once and usually twice a week in the evenings. I was close to a few of those people, and it felt great. Like family.
Since then the group broke up, a few people took up new interests, and one of my closer friends in the group passed. (Fuck cancer.) I moved, got married and while I love my family I have no tight, close relationships that hit that same level. Finding the same kind of friends and dynamic is very, very hard. Sucks.
When you were a kid, you play with other kids, slowly you know each other, understand each other. And then that understanding grow into trust, and further into reliance or even love.
As an adult, reliance and love is hard to develop due to many factors, but understanding and trust can still grow.
Under this new situation, maybe it's just more rational to change the definition of friendship, since deeper interactions (such as companionship) has now became too expensive.
> Eventually, loneliness can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Maybe one day you'll find that you already have many friends living around you, you ignored it in the past because "that's just regular old living".
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 249 ms ] thread- Grandpa Simpson
This is the most important tip in the article, in my experience.
When I lived in SF, most of my friend hangs were 1-on-1 catchups over coffee or lunch. Scheduling and comparing calendars would sometimes feel like an impersonal chore. Meeting so many people individually was time consuming, repetitive, hard to schedule, and yet somehow infrequent -- it felt like the main reason to hang was to catch up on what's new, so you needed to wait a month or two to let new things pile up.
Then I moved to Seattle. I decided to switch to only really attending (or inviting people to) hangouts that included multiple people. Basically, my new policy was to try to hang out with multiple simultaneously whenever possible. And it worked wonders! My friends met all my other friends, and things played out exactly as described by the article -- some of them hit it off, became friends with each other, and started initiating invites and events without me.
In addition, hangouts are just more fun with more people. There's more to talk about, more excitement, more fun. And it's easier to schedule, too, since you can see more people in a smaller number of hangs. The value of the hangs goes up, too. There's more reason for people to say "yes" because they're getting to catch up with multiple people, not just one person.
People come and go in your life.
What I am struggle with aren't local acquaintances but friends that aren't local to me anymore.
And if you somehow are able to get whole group together, then too many preschoolers around is just chaotic. Heard it will be easier once kids are older.
But for now, we usually hang out with one or maybe two families at a time.
Another nice thing about group hangouts is that not everyone needs to be there so it makes scheduling a lot simpler.
However I can't judge, because I personally dislike group hangouts, so I can understand if conversely someone finds arranging 1:1 meetings difficult.
1:1's don't renew. You have to keep feeding the relationship. The relationship can be extremely rewarding for chit chat & conversation, but it could drop at any point, and become a memory. It has no self-maintaining spirit, no ability to repair itself if one person loses some availability or time.
A group can fend for itself in a far different way. Assemblages can have members come and go, but maintain a core purpose and identity. There's rhizomatic affiliations that can find each other & get new currents & excitements going, whereas in 1:1's the potentials for connection are bounded.
Closed systems can only keep processing the same pieces of energy again and again for so long. They can steal some vitality from the surrounding, but the lifetime of the relationship is limited. You need more open dynamical systems if you want to keep interesting things going. Long term survival requires systems that can perpetuate & share themselves. 1:1's by definition cannot.
It's like a romantic relationship - once you find "that person", you're done.
I'm open to the idea that my suicide risk is higher by not having a large group support network, but I enjoy being alone and I enjoy 1:1 time enormously more than being in groups, and overall I think my quality of life is higher with this choice. Everyone is different of course.
The weekly hang is a socially porous experience, it has a fixed location and fixed start time but everything else is improvised. Different people could dip in and out, people felt free to bring new friends, people they just started dating, friends from out of town etc. Some people came once and never again, others become regulars. The hallmark of a great weekly hang is that the entire initial cohort gets replaced but the weekly hang still persists.
It's a commitment in time that "busy professionals" ostensibly had no time for which is why I think it was so unpopular in SF but it really killed a big part of the vibe of the city for me.
What kind of location -- is this a bar or a park or a brunch spot or something like bowling? How big is the group usually, like 6 or 20? Is it weekend afternoon or weekday evening? And how does it get started, does it just start organically or is it a group decision among a bunch of existing friends?
I think I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it because if I go with friends for food it's always somewhere new, if it's an activity it's always different, and the idea of the exact same time and location every week seems like it would get dull quick. Maybe that's because I'm accustomed to the fact that in big cities the whole point is novelty, always something new to explore. The idea of a fixed time and a fixed location doesn't seem as compatible with that.
Where did you find it successful pre-SF? Was it a mid-sized city thing, or a more country thing, or a college thing? I'm just so curious to know more.
Had another group where every Saturday morning we would go to a different cafe for brunch. It was a smaller and less dynamic group, and we would organise the venue in a group chat throughout the week, but it wasn't a question of, "who wants to come this week?", it was just assumed we would all be there and phrased as, "Any objections to trying this place?"
Mid-size city in Australia.
I think this is more inline with the way humans have evolved as we evolved in small local tribes (Not of 6 people, but in modern times it's hard to keep anything more than 6 from breaking up).
This started out as several different friend groups when I grew up. Those evolved as time passed and then in college in the dorms we formed groups based off of proximity. Then after college I befriended a san francisco local and he introduced me to his childhood friend group he grew up with and I hung out with them for a number of years before leaving.
After that it's been hard to find another group. I have found that proximity when eating is the best most consistent way to form friendships. If you always eat lunch or dinner consistently and often with the same set of people you guys will end up forming a bond. Even with your co-workers. If you want it outside of work I have found communal living spaces where there's a shared table for eating helps promote this. Very hard to do this when you get married.
Also note that when the proximity ends, the connection tends to drift as well. You will find that this is not only consistent with friends but family as well.
There was another time when there was a weekly karaoke group I hung out with. Again pretty small, like 4-6 people usually. Always the same place. Seeing who would go up to sing (from other groups besides our own, too) and what songs they'd try kept it interesting.
There's also a Friday night board game group that I've now been a part of for about eight years now, that's had it almost every week. I haven't always been able to go, but I've probably been to probably at least two hundred of them at this point. It used to be more open and would have 6-12 people there regularly, but the guy who hosted it (out of his house) originally got tired of doing it, and when it migrated to another host it whittled down to only 5 core people. But even at the new host's home that's been going for like four years now (without me and another guy for most of 2020-2021 because of the pandemic).
So yeah, having some sort of game or activity it centers around tends to help, at least in my case. Especially something that doesn't require specific people and if people can drop in or out pretty easily (people can arrive late or leave early and no big deal, they can still jump into a game or sign up to sing a song, etc).
Dinners don't work quite as well, imo, because it requires people to arrive pretty much at the same time.
Fast forward 8 or so years. We no longer do trivia, but get together just about every week along with the siblings, childhood friends, girlfriends, and wives that have joined us over the years.
It's a little strange to think of how different my life would be had I not been at that bar on that night, but that's how these things work: you put yourself in a situation where something social is going on, and all that's standing between you and making some new friends is saying "yes."
I mean, imagining what 'wouldn't have been' is a lot easier than imagining what 'could have happened' because you literally have no idea. You can imagine life without your friend group, but try to imagine a life where you ended up grabbing a drink at Jeffery Dahmer's apartment or any of a million other things.
It was a simple thing which didn't need a lot of coordination. You just showed up after work if you felt like it and hung out as long as you wanted to. When each game ended, the winner took on a new challenger; new arrivals were automatically next up. Between games, you hung out, drank beer, chatted, enjoyed each other's company, maybe got some food (if you ordered a plate of fries, it would be shared with all; that was the rule). Some people were serious about pool and played hard, while others only went for a round or two; some people stayed until midnight, while others just dropped in for a pint.
I don't know exactly how many people were part of this thing; anyone could invite anyone, so there were maybe forty or fifty people involved overall, roughly a dozen of them regulars. On any given night there might only be five or six present, but sometimes on a nice summer evening you'd get fifteen or twenty, and we'd open up another table.
Not a country thing - this was right in the heart of the city. It's possible some of the people may have known each other from college but that certainly wasn't the defining character; we were all working professionals, ages from mid 20s to late 40s. I wasn't there when it started but I believe it was a group decision among existing friends.
I wasn't into board game night, I also tried DnD which was ok but what an arduous turn based system and ritual, the weeknight bars were meh (to me), weeknight nightlife was pathetic compared to actual “world class” cities, some of my friends did well in the bouldering scene, there was a time when I was interested in free pizza and accumulating AWS credits at tech mixers, but that got old quick.
Turns out I don't like tech industry, I like money alongside the ability to build things myself. No big surprise there, just would have thought that the money in SF would have attracted more interesting and varied people.
But I personally find the bar to be low, “San Francisco 49ers” is still loudly proclaimed, its a derogatory rating system for women “4’s that think they are 9’s”. or “LA 4’s are SF 9’s”. Derogatory, but not inaccurate. I’m sure we can find a synonymous progressive way of acknowledging the exact same phenomenon.
Then, even longer time residents speak of a mystical way more cooler version of San Francisco, with artists! except every currently nice neighborhood is described as a once dangerous ghetto, and nothing sounds appealing about that to me either.
in general many other personalities will go to an economic center to provide services
LA, NY, Miami circuit. Dose of some select spots for European summers.
Professionally, I got in front of the people I needed to in Silicon Valley and flipped a couple startups with non-dilutive capital and got out. Probably stayed in SF one or two years longer than needed, but I was open to making that my identity at the time so I tried to make it work, I like some things about Norcal just that they were always excursions instead of right in my neighborhood. People that like SF were almost never talking about things they liked within the city limits, it was things they liked somewhere between the pacific ocean and the border of Nevada, spoiler alert, not whats attractive about other cities.
Now I never mention tech unless its useful to talk about my exposure to a specific opportunity.
I don't think this is my jam, and I say that as someone who ran a 5k every day for three months last year to be able to enjoy literally this group.
Just show up and try to improve yourself. Be friendly.
Pretty rare I find one of these that are both around 3 miles (about my limit most days unless I'm at a park all day with breaks, my feet and sometimes lower back start getting pretty sore) and a more casual pace. I do attend those that I find, though. But that tends to be like 3 per year. Kind of defeats the purpose of making friends in these groups.
I don't think I've found any that are just 'go as far as you want and we'll meet you back at the local Starbucks' though, at least not near me.
Here's the next few upcoming, as an example:
"6 mile Hike Not a Beginner's hike" - (Tuesday midday)
"About 4.5- or 5-miles total" - (Tuesday midday)
"Walk about 2 miles" (but Tuesday midday and 45 minutes away, can't drive there, hike 2 miles, and drive back during a workday)
"We will be hiking 4.5 miles at a faster pace (3.75 mph) dependent on trail conditions." - (Evening, but fast pace and a bit too long)
"6.5 miles with shorter options" - (from the map it looks like the shorter option is "turn back around", it's one big loop. it's on a Sunday but it's also over an hour drive away from me)
No mention of meeting anywhere afterwards in any of those.
The other option would be to start your own.
My most local group was started as a Facebook group by a lady who wanted to run with other people. She lives on a country road and wanted to run with others in town, so she took over an existing but dead Facebook group. The time and schedule would be up to you.
This is pretty much her strategy, being intentional that you want, and welcome, people to join you.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1571094946691499?fs=e&s=m
I'm aware I could start my own. I once was the admin of a different type of Meetup group that had over 1000 members. It's just more way work than I have the time and energy for anymore, and also pretty expensive if done on Meetup.com nowadays ($200/year). For as infrequently as I'd host meetups it wouldn't be worth it.
I could also try to become a co-organizer of another group, but that would probably require me being able to go to enough of these for them to trust me to be a co-organizer.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's more hassle than I want to go through, for something that I can do on my own whenever I feel like it (and with my dogs).
Downtown Chicago is a bit far for me to drive for a run, but I'll keep an eye on it in case one of them ends up a bit closer to me. And maybe this will help someone else that does live downtown. Thanks for the suggestion!
It will take a few times of showing up to make friends. It kind of feels like walking into a workplace cafeteria where people eat together everyday, what they're talking about or laughing about is something they've talked or laughed about previously, so all the details are missing and they're just asking about X or Y updates.
I encourage you to go, at least a few times. Read "how to win friends and influence people" and "The Charisma Myth" before your first one if you need a "how the heck do I deal with new people" boost.
Send me a picture of your running group photo at Christmas and it'll make my year!
For example, the 3.5 miles on Wednesdays is on a track at a local high school. I was literally getting lapped over and over, just like in high school.
Stop caring about what people think.
I went. I sucked, to the point of it being awkward. I trained daily for three months before going a second time. I still sucked. I don't know how to create the conditions that would make it productive to attend again.
https://www.parkrun.us/byxbee/
(Parking is along Embarcadero road, not in the Byxbee Park parking lot.)
A couple months in at the new gym I met a woman who soon became my best friend. An odd pair we made me being a 55 year old introverted redhead and her being a 36 year old gregarious French-African. But we are both engineers and love fitness. Our friendship really bonded over training for the Rachel Carson Challenge, a 36 mile hike.
And running - well that opened up and even more important social network. I started running with a small group in the neighborhood that was organized by my soon-to-be best friend, then added a larger city-wide group that another soon to be very close friend had introduced me to, and then joined the local Fleetfeet group with her after she mentioned that they were also very nice - even though they met on Sundays, which I had always treated as my Fitness day off.
The first several times I went on Fleetfeet runs without my friend was a bit awkward, as I didn't really know anyone. I am by nature on the introvert side of that scale. But running, like the Rachel Carson Challenge hike, gives you a lot of one-on-one time with people – often complete strangers. After running and talking to someone for hours, you are no longer strangers. The Fleetfeet runs usually starts at a Starbucks and then at the end of the run we would stay for coffee and a snack. You do that every week with a group of people and, like my fitness classes - if you have a social bone in your body - you're going to end up with a group of good friends.
The other thing going on in my life which was quite challenging in terms of my loneliness is that my wife has left me and I was living alone. Without my new social network, my life would've been a much bigger challenge. The amount of emotional support that I got was beyond measure. A few months into doing group runs, I talked with a new stranger who six months later became a romantic partner. Thus, I can trace my current happy relationship state to that one moment in the gym where I decided to take off my headphones and do a group fitness class.
Apologies for the long post, but your “running group” suggestion motivated me to share my story. Take off your headphones and join a fitness group! It’s a twofer as you’ll also get in great shape.
Then life happened in 2012. I got married and moved to the other side of the metro area and couldn’t find time to teach anymore and soon after “something” happened and my asthma flared up and it took over a year to recover and then other long standing physical issues started becoming more prominent.
But most fitness classes were mostly female. Mine was different since my choreography was simple and athletic. We were also all single or both the husband and wife would come. It would be seen as creepy as a male to try to make “friends” with women I met at the gym especially now at 50 and myself being married.
Ironically enough, my wife is involved in the fitness industry now and I meet a lot of couples via her friends.
Anyway, I started back training for runs earlier this year and will be joining running clubs.
> It would be seen as creepy as a male to try to make “friends” with women
Not sure why you or anyone would think that. In my case also it was nearly all women. But they approached me - because they are a social and welcoming group. I was married at the time. It wasn't a flirty thing at all. But it did result is a different friendship situation in that most of my friends were female. But trust me they make most excellent friends. Not afraid to share their feelings and listen to yours, and to say "I love you".
"After running and talking to someone for hours, you are no longer strangers."
Long, phone free, distraction free, interruption free, no-pressure, no "ask", no "work-relationship" to preserve, you're both sweaty, spitting, farting, drinking, exhausted, but proud of yourself and the others who are kicking butt that moring as well... I imagine it's why soldiers bond so well - shared adversity.
If you're a lonely geek reading this, a running group is an easy formula for friends. I've lived in the same town for 17 years - joining the running group and meeting others made it feel like home instead of just the place that I lived. Random streets and neighbourhoods aren't just "over there" they're now "Bob lives there". Going out for a run and getting honked at, or driving around for errands and honking at friends is just good fun.
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I don't usually journal, but this day was an adventure with friends, something I hadn't had since Grade 7 until 40+... Just an embellished story about a drive out to someone's house, a run down a country road and the animals that we saw on the way. Being included and having fun had been missing from my life for too long.
Dec 28, 2022 I met J at my friend K's house and went on a road-trip to meet other friends; to climb mountains, descend valleys, fight off wild dogs, scare cows, dodging killer (wheeled) beasts, and run with horses, ending with Irish cream whiskey around a bartop table.
Edit: I can sort of imagine this happening at a bar with an unusually big patio, like SF's Zeitgeist. Not that Zeitgeist has a huge patio, it's just huge for the area. And if this gathering was always at a bar, I wouldn't go much, because I have a ton of trouble hearing people in bars.
What sort of activity?
Have you tried switching on subtitles?
What about a church? They do the weekly hang pretty much every Sunday.
Historically, humans lived in tribal groups where they're in constant contact with a large but cohesive group of people. So in terms of anthropology this is the more natural way.
As social occasions, the brunches didn't lead to anything in my life. The guests made extremely generic smalltalk. I don't know if anyone had fun. I didn't get invited to anything else in those people's lives.
I was kind of glad that COVID killed the brunches because of how fruitless they were.
I get the idea that spending time one on one can turn into giving each other life updates instead of a more intimate exchange. But group events can also be really shallow and demotivating.
"Couples" puts everybody in involuntary performance mode. It starts super harmless, the "and" element (the side in a couple that came along) having a natural desire to be good with the friends of their partner (the "and" side is prone to greatly overestimate the depth of the relationship that lead to the invite!), the other side (the one that had the "link") trying to make their partner feel good with that group. So far so good, everybody does the reasonable thing, sounds super nice. But that very same thing happens within every couple, nobody in the room who isn't in "prove myself to my partner" mode. Before you know it escalates into a take-no-prisoners battle of showing off which couple functions best. It's certainly possible with couples despite all this, but there is infinitely more that could go wrong along the way.
More commonly what I've seen happen is occasionally two people I'm friends with don't get along with each other, and have negative feelings coming to events/hangs where the other person will be there.
Read the other comments on this article, and there are so many men in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ saying that they have a partner, a sibling or two, and 0-2 friends, and that's enough, they feel saturated and don't want anymore friends. In my opinion, this is because they're treating every relationship as if it has to be the highest level of meaningful 1-on-1 connection.
I'm super duper close to my brother, my girlfriend, my mom, and to one high school buddy of mine, to the point where we talk for hours a week, every week. Beyond that, I have lots of friends, literally several dozen friends, many of whom I absolutely love, and who I've gotten super vulnerable with, who feel comfortable dropping by unannounced. But I don't make a big deal out of needing to hang out with them 1-on-1 all the time.
I know that the friend I'm hanging out with will get my jokes - inside jokes, weird humor etc. Now I have to worry about an entire group, some of whom may not like my humor, and now I have to put on the 'you're in public, be brusque and minimal' anxiety filled mask, and can't open up as I would in 1-1 or 1-2 with a friend or just a couple of friends.
Now add that to other people invited who may feel the same way. Maybe they're only comfortable with that one or two friends they hang out with, and not the rest of us they don't know.
Groups aren't my thing sadly. Nor, I assume, are a thing for many young people.
You've never had a person or two in the group that was sensitive?
>I've never thought about having to impress each individual member
It's not about 'impressing everyone.' It's more about being conscious that everyone may be listening to your comments and/or judging you. This gets worse the more anxious person you are, and/or if you were an introvert.
I don't think it's a great idea to tell those people to 'get over it' either as we used to in the 80s.
Is that a good thing?
I'd be interested if there are any other hobbies or interests that have a similar built in social component?
Introverted people without social anxiety exist. I'm one of them. I have no fear of meeting new people and the like, but social situations exhaust me more quickly than others and I need alone-time to recharge.
Additionally: when you're hanging out in a group, you avoid those awkward situations where some people (or their partners!) might be wondering if it was a potential "date" kind of situation.
Nerds are much more interesting, really. They’ve spent enough time on things they are obsessed about to have something to discuss. It’s not all “kids, schooling, housing, weather”. My favourite thing is to meet a nerd with an obsession outside of my own, as there is so much to learn.
Talking nerd stuff is nicer and as such I only have nerds as friends and I married one, but there is no shortage of them. So far I made friends at any age (I am in my 50s).
It’s really hard to make good quality friends. Honestly, I couldn’t be bothered right now to invest that kind of time and effort.
I hope that changes one day, but at this rate I’ll probably make friends among the parents of my kids friends one day. I just have other priorities now. I’m content, and I have a solid marriage. It’s fine for now.
One girl had "dibs" on me regarding the MLM scheme. She eventually got a bit irritated that I never signed up, but I still managed to integrate myself into their social circle for a good while. I even went to one of their conferences, just out of curiosity.
A good number of the people I met were actually quite interesting, but had some unsatisfied aspect of their life. The combination of community and intense exercise was healthy for them, even if they were spending their time futilely trying to sell supplements.
It made me feel profoundly sad the last time it happened. I don't know why really, but the fact that no one would ever talk to me unless they wanted to sell me something was just a hard thing to take.
So hearing that you hung out with these guys on purpose is fascinating to me. It all seems so contrived and artificial, but it seems you got something out of it at least. Did you end up making any real connections?
Since my experience feeling sad though I have tried to say hi and strike up conversations with strangers when it feels appropriate. People may be put off by it occasionally, but it's nice to connect with people, even if it's only briefly.
I think I was able to assimilate myself into their group because of my utter lack of agenda. I was as foreign to them as they were to me, but I was easy to talk to because I would offer a sympathetic ear or a witty joke rather than claim to have a lucrative nutritional solution. I also think there was some aspect of novelty to it that they enjoyed. I was the guy whose day job was making rocket ships, hanging out and taking an interest in their lives.
Here's something to keep in mind about those bros approaching you in the gym. It's a hustle, but they aren't trying to scam you. They're likely being genuine within the framework of their own life experiences. They've been taught that selling to strangers is their path to success. They are the foot soldiers in an army, following orders trickling down from ruthless generals aware the soldiers are probably going to die. When I went to that Herbalife convention, there were 2000 young people in a hotel conference hall all frantically taking notes. From my perspective, though, the speakers said nothing of substantial meaning. It was 100% affirmation. Thousands of pens writing it all down in notebooks. It was quite amazing for me to experience. If you're curious, next time someone like that approaches you at the gym, maybe give them the benefit of the doubt? Don't sign up for their MLM obviously, but don't be afraid of them either. If you're into protein shakes, throw $20 cash their way so they can move some inventory. If not, then politely decline. Either way, when you wrap up the conversation, ask them for their names again and give them a fist bump. Next time you see them in the gym, ask them for a spot, or say hi and just ask how the hustle is going. Embrace them as gym bros, and enjoy their company.
The girl that made the meetup posting was a single mother that had gotten pregnant as a teenager. She was trying to get out from being dependent on her own parents, and was focused on getting back into shape for the "bikini pageant" circuit she used to participate in. She was always friendly to me, but we had pretty much zero in common, and she obviously hoped I would join the MLM. She invited me to her birthday party and nobody talked about nutritional supplements there, so I think we were friends.
Her roommate Carlos was tall, handsome and ripped, and many of the girls in the group seemed to swoon for him. He also seemed like a genuinely friendly guy, if not a bit mysterious, and while we never had any memorable conversations, it was always nice to just quietly hang out in a dive bar on a Tuesday night and play pool or darts.
There was one guy that moved to LA to become an actor and comedian, but he worked as a waiter. When he first arrived he was pudgy and physically weak and lacked confidence. He was obsessed with one of the more seemingly vapid but gorgeous girls. She had him wrapped around her finger, but she obviously had her own eyes on Carlos. He was great entertainment when drunk, due to the self-awareness of his own mediocrity and his inherent desire to entertain. By the time I lost contact with him, he was lean and muscular, and successfully working as a Harry Potter look-a-like for hire.
There was a notably short girl who I thought had a quick wit and weird sense of humor. She seemed incapable of making any deep connections with anyone, though, because she was hung up bad...
You have to search a bit for what you're looking for rather than just use the default suggestions it makes from your interests.
The idea is to make a weekly group for one of your hobbies, maybe you like to play basketball (for example sake). That way, if nobody shows up, that's fine, you were going to work on your free throws anyway. If 1 person shows up, now you can play 1-1. If 2 people show up you can play horse, etc.
Where the hell are the normal people? Where can I find folks into morning jogs, woodworking, sailing, road trips, 3d printing, burritos, and international travel?
> Where the hell are the normal people?
On the pub crawls, obviously. Duuh.
> Where can I find folks into morning jogs, woodworking, sailing, road trips, 3d printing, burritos, and international travel?
Huh?!? I thought you were looking for normal people, so what would you want with those weirdos?
Pretty much the only exception to the monthly cadence is hiking meetups, which in my area are dominated by retirees and midlife singles. I've tried them, I wouldn't keep trying.
1. That's the cadence that most people's life runs on. It's easier to schedule and remember something that happens every Wednesday, than every other Wednesday.
2. You actually start to feel like friends with people fairly quickly when you see them weekly. It feels like a good balance between space and closeness for strangers to start becoming friends.
Starting a meetup is hard. If there's something relatively popular or trendy with the demographic of people you're hoping to make friends with, that might be something that will attract more people to your meetup quickly (AI, board games, investing, etc).
Even if you only get 1-2 great people to become regulars, you can cancel the meetup and still meet with them every week.
I don't keep going to monthly events because I love the cadence. It's because the weekly event near me is "YC Startup Accountability Circle."
Maybe your putting to much emphasis on good and quality and filtering them?
Like you already know friends come and go. Who cares if they're good and quality(ok to some degree... but the average person isn't immoral) As long as you can hang out and do something you should be good. They're friends, your not having a kid with them.
I think when we were younger, well me atleast, there was a huge emphasis on dont be popular, small amounts of good friends are better then having lots of friends . thats probably good advice for a ten year old struggling with self esteem. But as an adult? Who cares, be friends with everyone. If you really can't stand them, they'll be gone before you know it, just like the good ones.
Or just be friends with people, some will stick and some pass by. It's how life goes.
Edit: you really only need to find one, maybe two people and be okay just pushing it by asking people to do stuff. You'd be surprised how willing people are to do anything. Just start asking. It's also hard bc we (in america) design our cities very poorly
So... become a regular at local restaurants, random coffee shops, bars, clubs, farmer's markets, parks, hiking trails, start a band, volunteer somewhere, join a gym, travel, etc.
In other words, get out more?
Maybe this used to work, but it no longer does. I'm a regular at several local hangouts, hit the gym several days a week, and go out to other activities regularly. I rarely have conversations with anyone beyond perfunctory pleasantries with the staff. Neither does anyone else; since COVID people almost exclusively stick to themselves or the group they came with.
There's been the odd occasion where I do get someone's contact info like the article suggests. So I text and the conversation tends to be some variation of "I'm busy the next couple of weeks, I'll text when I can hang out!" Of course they never do. Following up yields the same result and also reeks of desperation, so I no longer do that.
Meanwhile people seem to regard friendships as disposable lately. Within the past year I've been repeatedly ghosted and excluded from activities by longstanding friends for some perceived offense that I only found out about secondhand weeks later. Apologizing had no effect, and I regret doing it.
So now, I have almost no friends in my current town aside from my spouse, and rather than continue on with this charade we have decided to move back east - where probably the cycle will repeat itself, but at least in a more familiar environment where socializing is slightly easier.
I’ve noticed the same thing. I used to go out a lot, loved to out talk to people, maybe a party a bit. Sometimes I’d go with a group, often times I’d go out alone. It used to be pretty common if you were alone on a weekend, someone would invite you to come sit and chat with them.
Post-covid though I’ve pretty much stopped going out. People seem more antisocial outside of their insular groups, at least compared to pre-covid. The “friend” group I was part of imploded because of petty drama and nowadays, the only thing I get from going out alone is a bad hangover the next day.
Yes I've noticed this too, but what does "stick to themselves" mean? If you mean someone sitting alone I don't think that's much different from what you might look like to them. Say hello or smile. Never know.
Also, even when people are in groups they might be open to one more. People usually aren't that insular unless they're jerks anyway. Worst that can happen is they ignore you which is better than assuming. Yeah it's rougher out there than it used to be, but that makes it all the better when you do click with people. I feel like the current climate has more opportunity for genuine connections than it was before covid when people were posing and fronting all the time.
This has not led to any organic conversation that could lead to something deeper.
A good friend of mine is very high on the extraversion scale. There is not a shred of introversion in him beyond him spending part of his free time studying philosophy. He has the ability to strike up long conversations with seemingly anyone, anywhere, anytime. This has been true before COVID, during COVID, and after COVID. What does he do? He simply starts talking to people. It can be about just about anything, though usually he will start conversations by making an observation or a light-hearted joke relevant to the situation. He will even ask people he doesn't know their opinion on something that's relevant to the situation. One might assume this strategy must blow up in his face with some frequency, but I've never seen that happen. Is it any coincidence that he has many friends and half the town seems to know him? I don't think so.
There's nothing he does that any of us can't do. It's not as if he is super handsome or well dressed. I do agree that people these days, depending on the region, have developed a tendency to stick to themselves, be soft-spoken, and not initiate anything. That doesn't mean people don't desire for someone to break up the monotony, even if they think they want to always be by themselves and not be bothered. By my observation, most people aren't bothered, and the ones who are will play along anyway. While others certainly put up a barrier, many of us who actively desire more human contact may not realize how much of a barrier that we put up ourselves.
Eventually, enough people need to acknowledge that putting up a barrier sucks, and that's got to start somewhere.
Parks are an exception ... if you have toddler with you.
[1] https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil
I also agree with csallen's comment. Introducing my friends to each other was one of my projects for last year and its made my whole world closer and more convenient. Now if I ever want to see a movie, have a day in the park, have a dinner I know I can make a general invitation and whoever is free and interested can show up and, because they already know each other, everyone will have a great time.
If you trust your friends to see in each other (or at least respect) what you see in each of them individually and if they're mature adults, there should be no issue with introducing people to each other. This practice has been a good way for me to re-examine some of my own unconscious biases about which of my friends would get along with one another based on superficial qualities (such as their occupations or backgrounds) and I've been pleasantly surprised by the friendships that have blossomed out of the introductions I've made.
As a side note, I still identify as an introvert and still get the most fulfillment out of 1:1 conversations. I don't think you need to be an extrovert to hang out in groups or be the social glue in your world. I was inspired to start introducing friends to one another because I realized how grateful I was - as an introvert - when I first moved to a new city and one of the friends I made was super welcoming and inclusive with their friends. It made me want to serve in that role myself and I'm so glad I got over my shyness and anxiety. I think if you approach adult relationships with intentionality you'll often be surprised by how receptive people are - I find most people have a desire to make new friends, but they're often afraid to take the first initiative.
But I've already got a job and other life chores to deal with day in and day out that are stressful and exhausting. What's the point of friendship if it's just more of the same?
Sometimes I do think I want friends. Then I read threads like this and I'm not so sure.
Though I have found that it can be quite hard to become close friends but it’s definitely possible.
But still, start with some people that are close with you, either at work or in private, and try to expand that circle to larger / more diverse groups. The rule of making friends still apply for immigrants, it’s just a bit harder than natives.
Definitely a factor. My wife is not Asian and she gets way more opportunities than me to make friends in Japan, though it is a double edged sword as being treated differently can get really annoying after a while.
Yes, I can relate. I am blind, and 90% of all the interactions I have with strangers in public spaces are drenched in pity and patronisation. Being special sucks!
Never forget that hostilities towards people from specific countries is a rather subjective phenomenon. What is religion to one person, is completely unacceptable to others.
in europe white people can blend in, so even if they are not welcome they will not be rejected. but people that look different and have a different culture are looked upon suspiciously.
not everyone is doing this of course, it's very subtle, and fortunately there are also open minded people
There's still a lot of hatred towards Middle Eastern people because 'they're all terrorists', although it seems to me that has died down a bit. From the posts of a local Arab woman I'm friends with on Facebook, it still seems pretty bad here, just not quite as blatant anymore.
Chinese hate ramped up again since 2020, with all the talk about them being the enemy of the US on the right and many people blaming the country for Covid-19.
And while I think most people try not to hold anything against the Russian people for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, (especially Russians that have left the country), there will quite a few that won't. I can imagine if you're Ukranian you probably will struggle to be friendly with any Russian right now, for example.
Others with mixed groups of friends were way more approachable, I was surprised by some how well they are able to speak the language after just a few years.
Mefh...
> (immigrant?)
Upvote.
I also feel that this is generally only true for non-western immigrants. Never had any problems with aussies or americans.
I also agree that making friends is very hard in Germany, but absolutely doable. My life hack: use "Neu in $city" facebook groups, go to boulder gyms and be open minded, smile and take initiative. Talk to people! And then build groups, as mentioned in the top comment (atm).
Expats hang with Expats, natives with natives etc etc.
Tends to be easier
For what it's worth, I lived for a while in Russia and friendship is different there, too.
But I only have about three friends, and I see them maybe four times a year.
I really get along with my coworkers and enjoy their company at work. My wife thinks I should make more friends.
But the truth is (and I suspect this is pretty common with HN'ers), I don't want more friends!
Because in addition to those three friends, there's siblings, siblings-in-law, husbands of siblings-in-law, parents, parents-in-law, cousins, my wife's friends, my wife's friends' husbands, etc etc. And they all wanna see you!
That, plus of course spending time with my lovely wife/daughter (which I love to do), leaves not much alone-time to explore all the awesome stuff you can do in this world. Play guitar. Read a great piece of literature. Learn to draw. Learn Blender. Build some furniture. Grow a fruit tree. Grow five fruit trees. Keep a hot compost pile (more amazing to see than you'd think). Write a shitty piece of music. Learn to weld. Lift weights. Run.
There's just so much great stuff to do. I like people, they're great. But I guard my alone-time like a precious gemstone.
I have met a few guys who wanted to strike up a friendship. I only have room in my outer orbit, unfortunately. This is even after some friends moved further out. I would like more room in my life for Me, not other people.
I find again and again a real & immediate need to work hard to connect the very good folk, to get those with deep interests talking. Many just bow out to the mundane. So be it for them, but it's a loss to see very high intellectual potential just inundate itself among the norm.
My wife and I are polar opposites in that regard. She can never seem to have enough friends, and they talk often. I think one big difference is how people are with nothingness. Because no matter how busy our day is, there's always periods of downtime...on a bus, on a walk, before bed, etc.
For example, I could sit in a chair and stare at nothing for a long time and not get bored. Mind always wondering, planning, thinking. She on the other hand gets bored and stir crazy in short order. And having people to reach out to chat with is a good cure for that.
I'm not suggesting one is better than the other, of course, just another difference in people.
All of that is to say, people like us who at least -say- we don't want more friends make it harder for people seeking, by removing ourselves from the pool so to speak. And I'd imagine between marriages, kids, work, etc... there's a lot of us like that.
As I grew up, I realized how stupid and immature it is to try to blend with the rest of the crowd, where extroverts naturally stick out and introverts feel like they are doing something wrong and should emulate more visible ones. Embrace yourself as you are, focus on aspects you don't like yourself but enjoy the rest, it can be a real strength if you use it well.
Friends and family are one aspect of it, but also how you approach hobbies, traveling etc. Ie my extroverty boss can't simply go to gym, he has to go with some friend. So he goes rarely and he sucks in it. Bunch of friends simply can't travel alone, while I repeatedly explained to them that ie backpacking around the world alone is extremely positive and character-building experience that can't be achieved in any other way. So eventually one of them went, but for 2 weeks only to effin' Singapore and not a step further, to hang out with former colleague for 2 weeks. While having amazing places to keep discovering all around him, or ie jumping on a plane to Bali/Lombok/Gili islands for a week.
I would venture to suggest even that your boss can't simply go to the gym because he doesn't actually want to go to the gym. He wants to socialise inside a gym.
I don’t know you, but I have a feeling that you’ll eventually come to understand “extroverts” better than this.
Introverts have an inner model of the world. Extroverts rely directly on the world.
It doesn’t mean that extroverts like people more or that introverts necessarily prefer being alone. It’s just that for extroverts, when nothing external is happening it’s like a little death. And for introverts, we need down time to reconcile our inner model with all of the day’s external stimulation.
This definition of introvert seems closer to the term "need for cognition".
My old friends and I share a common history that goes way back. We were dumb teens in the 70's and 80's and so have a shared experience of those decades and that stupid shit we did.
We act as foils for one another — how one friend turned out differently than another while coming from the same background.
And also, and more importantly as we age, old friends remind us that we have more in common despite those ways in which we turned out differently. Money and status fall by the wayside when you get past 50.
When one has these things.
For someone in your position, maintaining friendships is always going to be the lowest priority item, on a neverending list of responsibilities and social expectations.
That's one thing that frustrates me about American society. People who are married with kids are insanely busy, with a robust and built-in social network, whether it's through interactions with relatives, or even making friends with other parents through sporting events, etc.
It's tough for the rest of us. Obviously there is no quick fix to this problem, but for now I'm able to fill some social needs through meetups and other social events. I'll probably also get a pet eventually.
Grass is always greener on the other side, and busy does not mean someone has friends.
If you get a dog and walk it or take it to the dog park you will meet people there. There's also group training classes like basic obedience and agility.
Be warned though, dogs, in general, require a lot of attention and some even need jobs.
I think we want the kind of friends who would be fine with a quarterly meetup for a fun activity, and little contact or obligation outside of that time.
Those infrequent hangs where it's primarily a catch-up and then go about your daily routine are OK, but unsatisfying. Like you, I have a handful of those friends that I catch up with and I care about them, but they're not really part of my day-to-day life.
What I want (and miss) are deeper relationships where I see / communicate with someone often and have strong shared interests. There were a few periods where I had those level of friendships and it was really great. For instance, about 10 years ago I was part of an art group that met at least once and usually twice a week in the evenings. I was close to a few of those people, and it felt great. Like family.
Since then the group broke up, a few people took up new interests, and one of my closer friends in the group passed. (Fuck cancer.) I moved, got married and while I love my family I have no tight, close relationships that hit that same level. Finding the same kind of friends and dynamic is very, very hard. Sucks.
See https://www.businessinsider.com/things-that-help-people-make...
from the article:
• Proximity: You're around each other regularly.
• Unplanned interactions: You see each other even without putting an appointment on a calendar.
• Privacy: You're in a space where you can exchange confidences.
When you were a kid, you play with other kids, slowly you know each other, understand each other. And then that understanding grow into trust, and further into reliance or even love.
As an adult, reliance and love is hard to develop due to many factors, but understanding and trust can still grow.
Under this new situation, maybe it's just more rational to change the definition of friendship, since deeper interactions (such as companionship) has now became too expensive.
> Eventually, loneliness can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Maybe one day you'll find that you already have many friends living around you, you ignored it in the past because "that's just regular old living".