Theft is a reasonable interpretation of denial of service. You may disagree (which is also reasonable), that doesn't make it a lie. This is a disagreement about what label to apply, the existence of this phenomenon hasn't (at time of writing and in this subthread) been disputed.
> the 'thief' doesn't gain the thing being 'stolen'.
IIUC, they do—the thief delegates tedious, finicky work to preserve their own executive function for “important stuff”. They don’t have more executive function than before the task existed, but they do have more than before they delegated it, and the delegation is the theft.
Isn't this just a description of hierarchical management? Which most organizations implement, including co-ops
The article is just describing a phenomenon where the people with the power to decide who works on what are not the people in the explicit power structure, and thus don't have the same accountability that usually comes with that power?
I get it the other way around. From lazy subordinates (usually juniors but older people too) that don't want to do the work required of them so instead they come "asking questions" because "they don't understand". Like if I wanted to do the work and figure out all the problems in this task, I'd have done it myself instead of delegating it to you.
It's almost as if they want to be little assembly line workers that make the same CRUD widget over and over. They're not lazy, they're probably also just as stripped of their EF as the rest of us plebs.
It's not only denial of use. The perpetrator gains the output of the delegated effort. The sale goes through. The business continues to operate. Paychecks get signed. The home's functionality is maintained.
When the "non-promotable work" of a firm, community, or family gets done "the rising tide raises all boats" if that work is necessary for the organization's profitability and/or autopoiesis.
I am confused as to how you don't see the profit in delegating.
Edit: for example, if I were to borrow your lawn mower with out asking, mow my lawn, and then--crucially--return your lawnmower wouldn't that be theft? Even though you'd only been "denied service" and not lost an entire mower?
In your analogy, it would be more like I'd contacted the housing association to force you to mow your driveway, denying you the time to properly manicure your lawn. I'm not gaining any improvement to my lawn in that case.
The claim is that, instead of you mowing your lawn, you get someone else to do it. What you gain is time, and reduced cognitive load.
It's kind of a childish thing to say about your manager since that is just how the cookie crumbles, but still a real exchange. Managers delegate certain tasks so they have time to focus on other tasks. Some managers delegate almost everything and leave you wondering if they do anything at all.
The person in the article feels their partner is also delegating to them and so they feel as though they have no executive function by the end of the day.
In regards to work though, that is just how some jobs are structured. You get paid to take certain load off of your 2IC or Manager or whoever.
Sure. Relevant to this discussion though, you also don't lose the time it takes to mow it yourself, and are now able to focus on other tasks. We aren't talking about the economics of the situation, it's about the impact of meanial tasks on time and mental capacity.
Perhaps a better example is when a manager delegates tasks, which is what the article is ultimately complaining about. No money changes hands. The manager gains time and room for focus on other tasks, by delegating menial focus sapping tasks to other people. I think the article is a bit silly, because that is the point of the separation of those roles, but they aren't ultimately wront about what is happening.
> the article is ultimately complaining about [when a manager delegates tasks]
I am sorry, but I re-read the article and still cannot understand why you believe this. The author gives three major examples:
1. Customer EFT: "sitting on hold with the company that manages my health flexible spending account"
2. Workplace EFT: "they see a need to be filled or have been asked or tasked with taking on more"
3. Household EFT: "Having a husband creates an extra seven hours a week of housework for women."
You seem to be interpreting the article as primarily about #2, Workplace EFT, and furthermore about one facet of workplace political dynamics, namely command hierarchy.
I'll allow that command hierarchies are nominally the principal aspect of a corporation, but one of the author's goals, I believe, is to shed light on the dynamics surrounding and running obliquely to that aspect. She takes pains to emphasize the gendered and allegedly random way "those tasks so often fall to the same group of people". The tasks about which the author complains are explicitly not those within one's job title and/or line of duty but, rather, the surreptitious assignment of service to which the employee did not explicitly consent when taking the job but now "feel they cannot turn down".
Long story short, I am a little blown away with your assertion that "the article is ultimately complaining about" something which is at the most tangential to the article's subject and possibly even--as in my interpretation--deliberately not being addressed.
Don’t they? This part of the article stood out and rung true to me:
> The thief has chosen to prioritize their executive function over another person’s and, having found that this makes their lives easier, repeats this behavior unless it is disrupted.
(Emphasis added.) By imposing the executive function-depleting responsibility onto others, they reserve EF capacity of their own which they wouldn’t otherwise specifically by extracting that cost from others.
Pollution is a negative externality and I would understand the gist of it if it was called theft of clean air, but hesitate to endorse the wording.
I think of theft is something that you catch someone for and punish and potentially get back what was lost or some of it. Negative externalities I think of as something that needs to regulated legally or through some other feedback mechanism.
I have ADHD, which should really be titled something like "Executive Functioning Disorder". That's the main symptom: not having enough executive function ability.
So what happens when my executive functioning is stolen? Debt. I am eternally indebted to any task that demanded more executive functioning than I could provide. And society demands I pay up one way or another: that's the ADHD tax. Couldn't finish homework? Gotta stay after school. Couldn't work on the company project before its deadline? Get fired. Couldn't cold-call 2 dozen mental health clinics to find an opening that works with my insurance? No meds or therapy for me.
Every social system that interacts with me is designed with a baseline expectation of executive functioning: I experience that as a DDoS attack.
I think both terms are correct, and you are welcome to use whichever best fits the context you are using it in.
That's pretty unfair. They never said it was evidence let alone weighty evidence, they offered examples of where they see this phenomenon in their life and in our culture. This is clearly a subjective interpretation/critique of another text ("I read this as"). That's perfectly reasonable to include in a blog post primarily about personal experience.
It’s a subjective interpretation that strikes me as fairly strained. It’s clear that Cal Newport would not advocate that, and I highly doubt would support what the author has written. There’s a difference between work that someone else has to do and work that nobody has to do, and I believe Cal was advocating for dropping BS work that nobody needs to do. This may even include entire committees, etc.
Maybe so, I'm not familiar with Newport, but very few people would advocate for externalizing your costs on to others. I'll take it as a given that Newport wasn't advocating for that (or rather, that Newport would not himself characterize it that way). But I think the argument is that that is the outcome (rather than the intent), even if the task that gets pushed onto others doesn't need to exist.
(And this is a different claim than that the author is essentially jumping at shadows, which is fine, I think it's a reasonable take, but that's what I was originally responding to.)
What? I think it's pretty clear theft is a metaphor and that no one is suggesting this is illegal.
Even if it were, theft is a far cry from inciting violence. Eg if I advocated shoplifting (don't shoplift) I wouldn't be inciting violence, I'd be inciting shoplifting. (Theft by violent means is called robbery.)
PP said that it was _compared_ to an illegal act, which the author did.
> (Theft by violent means is called robbery.)
(Legally, that's not accurate.)
_Morally_, all theft is violence. Shoplifting a pack of chewing gum is extremely minor, almost zero but it's not zero. Shoplifting also includes the "flash mobs" which run in and steam items, or the folks who walk into stores (e.g. in California) with trash bags and loot as much as they can fit because they know the employees won't touch them and the legal punishment is almost zero.
I'm open to theft being violence (though skeptical, that seems to elevate property to the moral status of a person), but comparing something to theft isn't in the same universe as incitement to violence. When you say someone has implied that someone else is "inciting violence" I think the comparison has broken down and we're getting into accusation territory.
That certainly wasn't what I meant by shoplifting but if I said, "we should all start going to big box stores with trash bags and stealing stuff, because the employees will not resist us and we won't have to fear a physical altercation" (again, don't do that, that's not my real position, you shouldn't steal shit) I don't think that is reasonable to call "inciting violence." Inciting violence is literally calling for people to be hurt or killed.
I don't really want to quibble about the precise definition of words, my problem with that comment was that it seemed like an escalation from nowhere, disconnected from what the author was actually arguing for.
How does this relate to the article and how does it support your assertion the author accused Newport of inciting violence?
(To make my ethical position explicit, I believe in nonviolence and I don't believe in theft. But I don't think that's relevant to a discussion about a turn of phrase.)
True, I can see how “weighty evidence” overstated the weak case presented by the author.
In the examples of Newport and Ferriss, the author ironically cites the cure for EFT as the problem. At a high level, net value of any task is gross value - effort value. Newport’s point isn’t to not do small tasks but make time for big ones, and if less important tasks fall by the wayside, then better those than significant work. Ferriss’ point is that of Ricardoian economics at a micro level: not all tasks can be done with equal efficiency by different people, thus route tasks to where they are most efficiently performed.
Irony aside, the essay could be categorized as reverse-CBT. Read more about Lukianoff’s idea at the link below:
> True, I can see how “weighty evidence” overstated the weak case presented by the author.
You're gloating and high fiving yourself for insulting someone on the internet, in the same breath you're asserting that person isn't well adjusted and needs to go to therapy. I'm not impressed.
> Not all tasks can be done with equal efficiency by different people, thus route tasks to where they are most efficiently performed.
The author is asserting some people "route" tasks that don't get them promoted to others. Your counter assertion is that those people are more efficient at not getting promoted?
> Irony aside, the essay could be categorized as reverse-CBT.
This is dangerously close to gaslighting. The author writes about personal experience, and you're asserting it's a product on insufficient therapy or is some kind of anti therapy.
> You're gloating and high fiving yourself for insulting someone on the internet, in the same breath you're asserting that person isn't well adjusted and needs to go to therapy. I'm not impressed.
I have insulted no person or thing. This statement appears to be mind-reading itself a straw man.
Don’t lie. I did not write that anyone “needs to go to therapy.” If you care to reply, please address the fact that you lied.
> The author is asserting some people "route" tasks that don't get them promoted to others. Your counter assertion is that those people are more efficient at not getting promoted?
No
>This is dangerously close to gaslighting. The author writes about personal experience, and you're asserting it's a product on insufficient therapy or is some kind of anti therapy.
Thank you for asserting my off hand comment isn’t some bad thing. Read the linked article describing reverse CBT. If you disagree that the EFT author’s mindset towards work isn’t that of reverse CBT, I look forward to rethinking it.
Stop lying about what people write. It’s especially unconvincing when what you are writing about is directly above your lie. I did not write that “they were engaging in the inverse of therapy.” I wrote “Irony aside, the essay could be categorized as reverse-CBT. Read more about Lukianoff’s idea at the link below:. . .” Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is a particular technique proven to help people. Lukianoff’s idea of reverse CBT is that people engaged in it are performing many of the things that CBT works against (without speaking to that as being part of the care prescribed by a healthcare provider).
Again, like your lies about what is written, you lie about “various insults at the author.” It’s plain to see that there is no insult in what was written, especially since you can’t be bothered to quote anything.
You can lie, you can disagree while covering your ears, hopefully one day you can come to grips with the world as it is even if today is not that day.
That's funny, I was thinking the same thing; that your insults are obvious and that your dissembling and condescension is unconvincing. I certainly don't have the wit to make a better argument that you're being insulting than your parting message, wishing that one day I'll get a grip. Laying it in pretty thick, wouldn't you say?
Delegation is typically from someone senior to someone more junior. It is also normally knowingly and directly communicated(both transmitted and received). The author's examples that I can bring to mind don't fit my pervious two sentences so I do not think delegation is the correct word.
Well also the author is abusing the term “executive function” here, so not the only odd thing in the article. The reason they’ve never seen the phrase “EFT” is because it’s a nonsense term.
The fallacy here is assuming planning something is draining or bad for you. It more has to do with how much you enjoy the thing. I think couples have arguments about the thing neither of them wants to do. But if one
enjoys planning the holiday for example they will just do it and it wont feel like EFT.
I definitely get bank EFT (pun not intended), I deal with this by having recurring todos with all the links and stuff I need to smash it out quickly. The idea is to offload from CPU (executive/conscious) to GPU (habits/unconscious)
When talking about this I thought EFT was going to lead to how Twitter and other dopamine hits stop you from getting important stuff done.
> The fallacy here is assuming planning something is draining or bad for you.
Executive Function is a term commonly thrown around in the autistic and ADHD spaces. When read in that context, it makes a *lot* more sense.
From what I hear, neurotypical people have a much higher tolerance for bullshit work and wasteful process. I wouldn't know what that feels like. Beyond 1 or 2 wasted steps and I get mad that someone has designed a process that's actively hostile to its users.
Have you seen Avengers? As the Hulk says, "That's the secret... I'm always angry." Learning to control your anger is a life skill, one that different people have different aptitude for, but one that nobody should give up on.
They have too high a tolerance. It can take a long time to convince them of what any observer can see. That they are doing a lot of busy or low quality work that simply amplifies the busy or low quality work in the future.
People who tolerate it create the Red Queen Problem that kills so many projects. It’s the people who don’t tolerate that shit that put a stop to it.
I don't get upset: I get stuck. Then I get upset; or I just dissociate, depending on how depressed I am at that moment.
If a task expects too much executive functioning from my ADHD brain, I literally cannot complete the task.
Of course, that sounds a lot more binary than it is: my executive functioning is a product of complex neurochemical interactions. The right balance of medication might give me enough stimulation to do the thing. Stress and adrenaline might give me enough stimulation to do the thing. I might be able to get started, but get stuck halfway through. All I can say for certain (predictably) is that my brain naturally lives below that stimulation threshold.
Years of living without medication (I was diagnosed in my late 20s) left my brain to create habits that try (and fail) to compensate. The main habit I have recognized is an obsession with objectivity: if I could just think about the problem enough to factor out the work, then I wouldn't need to do anything! The result is a collection of knowledge and understanding that isn't tied to experience or achievement. I'm still trying to get the hang of action: moving toward a goal.
Most people can't even imagine what I'm going through. For them, inconvenience is just something they live through. For me, inconvenience is the walls of an endless maze. I would very much like to leave.
I think you’re missing the assumption that planning is the “good” task, and the alternative is cleaning/chores, which generally no one wants to do.
> the other person is getting to relax or to plan a project?
Habits and subconscious thinking helps, but you do still have to do those tasks, and it does still take thought. You still have to write them down, set up todos, etc.
The idea is that cleaning/chores requires a lot of small things, that isn’t fun, but is mentally taxing. Planning meals, cooking, cleaning, tracking what needs to be cleaned next, timers, etc is the EF being “stolen”.
On a side note, the author's example is exactly why I have chosen to not use FSAs. Sure, it saves me 20% or so since it's pre-tax money, but is my stress, time, executive function, and sanity all worth that? Plus if I screw up and don't spend the money or file something wrong, I lose it or pay penalties.
I am the same way, after having royally screwed up one year (on a similar employer-provided benefit, not a health FSA). I donated several thousand of my pre-tax dollars to the state of California because I missed a deadline and the funds were use-it-or-lose-it.
The ADHD tax is real, and this article calls out its mechanism exactly, though not by this name.
FSAs are really annoying if they don't give you a debit card to use or if the administrator is hostile (making you document every debit card swipe, when the provider is obvious, is hostile.)
If yours is usable and if you want to get the benefits and struggle with the mental overhead (like me), the way I solved it might help. I projected the expenses we were almost certain to have (took about a minute.) Then I put a range on the expenses we'd probably have. That's where I set the FSA withdrawals. There was realistically a 0% chance I was going to lose money with the FSA. If gambling stresses you out, just do a conservative amount and be content with the savings from that.
That was 2022. For 2023, FSA planning was easy because I knew I'd be paying for orthodontics, so I just set it at maximum and spent the whole thing up front in January. I'll probably be back to a lower amount next year. It takes a minute to update the withdrawal in our benefits portal during open enrollment.
FSAs are pretty manageable if you only put $200ish in there. Mine somehow gets auto deducted for vision costs, so it manages to get used.
HSAs are a very good tax dodge retirement account, so you should figure them out. Except in California they're supposed to be taxed. Except… HSA providers don't give you the forms you'd need to report HSA investment gains, so it is literally impossible to report them.
I have always felt this way about FSAs. They don’t save enough money to feel remotely worth the bureaucracy. Especially because (maybe this is not universal) they don’t carry over year to year like an HSA. So you can actually lose money.
Similarly, my work has two options for commuter benefits. Monthly transit passes or like a $20/mo bike credit. The transit passes process automatically and do not accumulate. The bike credits can in theory accumulate but you need to manually manage these more that, bring receipts, the whole thing. Even though I’m an avid cyclist and spend well more than $20 on my bike related activities every month, the shenanigans around it just make it unusable to me.
In the US, FSAs are legally constructed to only run for the year (1/1 - 12/31). All of the money is available to you on Jan 1; it's not accrued per paycheck.
If you spend everything in your FSA in January and quit your job, the company has to eat the loss.
I've only taken plans that offered HSA. They have incredible tax free investment potential and they don't require any immediate attention. I'm just automatically buying retirement date low fee funds. If I want to manage it later on I can just swap things out.
I think my strategy diverges somewhat from the norm but this is what I do: instead of trying to perfectly predict annual medical expenses, which is pretty fraught especially in my case, i come up with a conservative estimate using a heuristic. Now this figure is typically half of my previous year's expenses. In this way, i essentially ensure that i utilize the full FSA amount without overcommitting.
To guardrail the process, i've integrated my FSA with a small app I wrote as a hobby project that automatically flags eligible transactions. This largely automates the reimbursement procedure, significantly reducing the overhead of manual management and making sure I don't miss much heh.
And in terms of the risk of forfeiture, this conservative approach coupled with the aforementioned automation has safeguarded me against major losses and kept my exposure low. I think the benefits of FSAs are hard to ignore, but they do necessitate a bit more touch than other expenditure vehicles to be sure.
I had a pretty strong negative reaction when reading this and had to sit with it a while to figure out why. I kept coming back to the idea that something about this seems childish to me without initially being able to articulate what, exactly, it was that seemed immature. After I'd had some time to thing on it it occurred to me that the underlying idea is that people are somehow responsible for the author's emotional well-being, that they are somehow owed something, or that perhaps they simply deeply misunderstand work relationships.
Respectfully, aside from whether or note the tone of the piece is or is not justifiable, I think your comment misses the point, which is that there is injustice in people (or a system) who unfairly shunt work off to you that they should rightly own. The US health industrial complex is indeed a prime example.
That’s a fair point. I would say the agreement that has been broken is an implicit social contract (in the sense of Rousseau) that people should share the burdens of society to make society function, and that individuals should do the work that would most appropriately be their responsibility.
Given that ideal hasn't been successful achieved in any society or time period in recorded human history I question getting this spooled up over yet another example of out species missing its own flex goals.
We have established ways of sharing the burdens of social life. This burden sharing is already happening. We negotiate it in real time. I personally began pushing back on certain norms of politeness at age 5. I became labeled as a troublemaker. That’s the price one pays for bucking the system. But it’s not a terrible price.
The author is unhappy with the social order, which is fine. Her error and transgression is in the misappropriation of the concept of “theft.” That is an important concept. We use it to keep order.
It’s like someone pulling a fire alarm to report that she feels really hot.
I, for one, appreciate your deliberate and expository introspection but if you need this explained to you, there's a chance you will never—and I mean never—get it, but here goes:
Some people believe that we owe it to one another to be considerate to one another, ie to take responsibility for one another's emotional well-being.
Yes, that "underlying idea" is actually quite common in polite society if not outright ubiquitous. In fact, I'm fairly certain that its absence is considered a psychological pathology.
The same reasonable people who believe that also believe in reasonable limits to taking responsibility for other peoples' emotional well-being.
It's not right to cry "theft" as if it is unethical to leave things undone that should not be done by anyone, or as if it is unethical to delegate to people to whom it is in your lawful power to delegate. It is, in a way, EVIL, to call that theft. It trivializes the notion of theft.
> It's not right to cry "theft" as if it is unethical to leave things undone that should not be done by anyone
I understand that Newport argues that and tasks shouldn't be done at all, but this is not at all a fair representation of the author's position.
> It is, in a way, EVIL, to call that theft. It trivializes the notion of theft.
You can critique their rhetoric but "evil" is an overreaction. Indeed, your critique that they are weakening the definition of theft applies to your use of "evil".
Right, and I'm not arguing it's OK to be a prick at work. But constructing a New Yorker length article to decry behavior that would more reasonably be ignored or shrugged off seems pretty overwrought to me.
So now we're just in disagreement about where these thresholds lie, and I think that's an OK place to disagree, because it will evolve over time with cultural evolution. I don't need to advise you that it's often tactically advantageous exhibit sensitivity to cultural norms.
That being said, I would be happy to see us hold one another to higher empathic standards than have been expected in corporate culture for the last century. At least one 2008 research study suggests that Narcissistic Personality Inventory scores were on the rise since 1989[0]--among undoubtedly WEIRD[1] college students.
All fair points but let's wargame this out a little further. Let's say for the sake of argument cultural norms are drifting towards infantile behavior. We good or at some point does someone pump the brakes?
Sorry, man, but, by your own logic, why is your own strong negative reaction reading this of any relevance? If you have an answer to that, then I think you will also have an answer to why the authors's well-being matters, too. Unless, of course, you mean, emotions are only real when children have them, and if an adult has them, then actually, they are a child..
That adults have emotions isn't in question, whether they manage their emotional landscape or get managed by it is a matter of emotional resilience and maturity. I stand by my statement.
This is an ad hominen if I ever saw one. You basically disliked the message and felt entitled to condemn the author's personality as immature and used that as the basis to dismiss their opinion as a misunderstanding.
The fact that a big chunk of romantic partnerships and friendships start in the workplace among co-workers tells me a quick cynical dismissal of co-workers as a shallow and single dimensional relationship is not very insightful.
Conversely viewing your coworkers as a massive extended dating pool suggests to me a level of social desperation that's hardly worthy of discussion much less serious consideration. That relationships form at work isn't in question, that's not the point of the exercise however.
My take is that it can be one of two things, either the task is delegated to you by your manager, or it's an attempt to shift the task over by a coworker.
If it's a coworker you can ignore it.
If it's your manager and for whatever reason you deem it unfair, reflect on exactly why, then bring it up with the manager, then see if you can align. If not, start looking for other options.
Whether these things are hard or not, is a different and independent issue. New things in life are usually hard.
i call it "choice-gas" and yes it does run low and is expressly frustrating when it's constantly taxed needlessly.
a good example is microsoft outlook. meeting invites would pop a mandatory three way choice of "send the response now, send the response later or edit the response before sending" every time the accept button was pressed.
I’m confused. Do you mean that the choice between those three buttons is difficult? I always just chose “send response now” and didn’t concern myself any more about it. Is there some reason that doesn’t work for people who are short on choice-gas?
I take the impression that it's not so much that it itself takes up much "choice gas," in absolute terms, but that's it's emblematic of a larger set of things that are wearing on them, and takes up more than it ought to.
it is completely unnecessary and emblematic of a culture that does not respect the idea of finite prefrontal cortex energy and willy-nilly will choose to disrespectfully waste it on a frequent basis.
it's like when you have to deal with a smarmy individual. any given instance of smarminess is fine on its face, but the cumulative sum can be unbearable.
The author is proposing that these “Workplace EFT” examples need some sort of fix, but I think it’s actual preferable to make the same decision as your coworkers and neglect them until they become a larger problem, since the alternative is taking them on by oneself and growing increasingly resentful that your coworkers don’t prioritize meeting notes or get well cards to the same extent you do. Otherwise, you’re really just inflicting you’re own personal expectations on everyone else instead of acknowledging that they have different standards than you do.
> neglect them until they become a larger problem, since the alternative is taking them on by oneself and growing increasingly resentful that your coworkers don’t prioritize [stuff]
Tangentially, this is a common problem in relationships. "You never do the dishes", "you never do the laundry"...
My headcanon for these mismatches is that people have different thresholds of activation. In a relationship, it's useful to state these explicitly ("Oh I only do laundry when I'm close to running out of underwear") before resentment sets in.
You ignore how much more difficult it is to get rid of those little pantry flies, roaches, and/or ants once they find a food/crumb source vs. consistently blocking the impetus for that class of problem to manifest itself. (Or, depending on your locale, perhaps just minimizing that problem as much as possible.)
Moreover, your philosophy of free agency doesn't take into account the resulting increase in your stress level from clutter and lack of clean utensils, and how that increased stress-- probably paired with a reluctance to acknowledge and deal with common stressors generally-- ends up confining your choices in ways that become frustratingly predictable over time. That's not to mention your attempts to hide your disgust when you pick up a dirty plate to reveal mold or wiggling pantry fly eggs, as if denial of an emotion negates the existence of that emotion. And finally, there's the effect that disgust has on your general mood, and even subtle though detectable changes to your opinions given we feeble humans process both physical and conceptual disgust in the same part of our brains.
> "you never do the laundry"...
means:
Pleasant odors and shared work tend to have positive affects on a woman's libido.
Second paragraph is restating that different people have different standards. Different people have different triggers for disgust and those that have the most sensitive might have to choose between an emotional tax or executive function theft if an agreement can't be reached.
I have no idea about pleasant odours but can see how not having ones standards respect could be a libido killer; just part of the complexities of a relationship/cohabitation.
My childhood household had a pattern where the dishes would be done within an hour or two of eating dinner, sometimes a bit later, but of course always before everyone goes to bed.
My wife sometimes does most of the dishes before she even starts eating. If I followed the customs of the home I grew up in, my wife would end up doing the dishes every single meal before I even get to the sink. Obviously I have learned to adapt to the situation, but my point is that it’s a bit unfair to characterize every mismatch in expectations as evidence of abject filth and slobbery on the part of the husband.
> when you pick up a dirty plate to reveal mold or wiggling pantry fly eggs
You're describing a hypothetical man who thinks dishes should be left in the sink until they grow mold and attract pests. Obviously mold and pests are bad, so this hypothetical man would be in the wrong.
But, most real relationship conflicts don't fit that hypothetical description! For example, last year there was a discussion on HN about leaving a dirty dish by the sink: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31000658 There was no mold or pantry fly eggs in that situation; the wife was upset about any dirty dishes being left by the sink at all, even a once-used glass of water.
And that's a much more complicated situation. It's common for different people to have different expectations for cleanliness: a husband might think it's OK for an empty glass of water to be left on the counter if he might drink from it later, but the wife might think that's "dirty". These are different points of view, and neither one is necessarily wrong.
Sometimes people try to frame this as "the husband is sexist and trying to make his wife do the chores" (or "he's inflicting executing function theft on her") but I don't think that's a correct or helpful framing. Like writeslowly and AceJohnny2 wrote above, this is a case of different people having different standards. That doesn't necessarily mean the one with lower standards is committing "executive function theft" on the one with higher standards.
For people who will take on these tasks, often them not being done is worse than them getting lumped with them. While others benefit from them being done, the primary benefit is to the person doing them (because the alternative is upsetting), even if this causes resentment (which it might not do!). Apart from the potential resentment, the main issue this can cause in a team is bad allocation of resources: if there's one person who takes on most of these tasks and they are also a high-performer in other areas, then the team is unlikely to be getting the most out of them because their time is taken up by tasks that anyone could do, but isn't.
Oof, this hits close to home. during my tenure as a principal engineer at a certain startup, well known and loved in these parts. Anyway I was new to engineering leadership and this big initiative came down from above to migrate to k8s. team was excited to be done with the myriad adhoc scripts and duct tape infra. But it turned out the team was very junior, and I was green as a leader and manager. every day brought a quagmire of smaller, seemingly inconsequential tasks. i'd be midway through configuring a helm chart and someone would drop by, asking for a pairing session or help with something or another or my input on something unrelated or to sign off on some administrative document.
To make matters much worse, one week, an elm / functional programming purist in the team started making a lot of noise. they believed in sticking strictly to the core principles of elm and basically avoiding 3p dependencies like the plague. while they were generally respectful and i respected their dedication, it became another thing to juggle. trying to mediate between that guy and those more pragmatic about our deadlines was taxing.
I realized that amidst all this, my primary role of mentoring others and solving higher level engineering challenges was getting overshadowed by these micro-decisions and tasks. it was like being in the middle of a sea, trying to stay afloat, while holding onto a bundle of papers. EFT, as described here, is a term that captures this perfectly. it's so essential to be aware of it, especially in the tech world where the lines often blur between roles and responsibilities, and especially in engineering leadership. Love having a word for this now that I'm in a position to mentor people who are new to engineering leadership
It sounds like the team actually agreed with the decision, so that part is fine.
Top-down isn't necessarily always bad. It's the result that counts. Top-down decision making has different trade-offs from bottom-up, so sometimes it's the better choice.
Bottom-up has more insights in details, top-down has a wider view. Bottom-up gets deeper commitment, top-down gets faster compliance. Bottom-up gets a thousand blooms blooming, top-down gets a unified vision.
At least there is some form of initiative. In most cases, grassroot efforts to refactor or clean up anything, no matter the pain, get squashed because "financials"...
I still think mentorship is one of the most impactful things someone can do; passing on experience can improve the velocity of someone else's learning and strengthen their contribution no matter where they land in industry.
The important thing is to mentor those who show willingness to pay this investment forward. I've never been in a situation with a completely green team but hopefully when I do I can navigate the role of empowering others to navigate some of that mentoring challenge.
It's because of commodity-ification of debt. Like a conversion-funnel, they turned it from a human function into an assembly line that eventually leads to your non-payment being sold to a debt collection agency. They assume you won't pay.
So many times I've looked at a reminder email, put it aside because it pisses me off. Yes I have the money to pay, yes its like 2mins to do in my banking app, yes I will settle it, but No I won't do it now that you effing emailed me about it. I'll do it on my own time...and then I forget till the next annoying reminder email that pisses me off even more.
Some days I wonder if some of this stuff is normal or if it's just me. I'd love to just have an assistant to offload this mental drain to either way.
Bad debts sell for pennies on the dollar, no-one is incentivised to get you not to pay.
On the psychological side, I know what you mean but you do seem to be taking things a bit personally. Yes, businesses are big and impersonal and automated, because society is big and impersonal and we have access to a huge range of services, we can't change much based on how pissed off we are.
AI assistants to make life easier for us must only be a year or two away.
> I will admit to never having been able to read Cal Newport’s Deep Work all the way through — I got too irritated — but I would point to his dismissive naming of the idea of “shallow work”, which he defines as logistical and often repetitive tasks, such as writing short emails. Newport recommends entirely stopping or poorly performing that work; I read this as encouraging readers to commit EFT against others around them.
It’s pretty weird to me that this is what the author took from Deep Work. Then again, they admitted that they didn’t read it fully.
The message of the book is not to dump your shallow work onto other people. It is to eliminate the “shallow” work entirely when possible, and to be mindful of the pitfalls of context switching when such work can’t be avoided. Nor is the word “shallow” used to describe anything other than the difference between something that requires deep focus to accomplish vs. something that does not. It’s not used in a dismissive or demeaning way.
The author is looking for things in that book that do not exist, and worse, using it as a reference to prove the point of the post.
I agree that dark patterns exist, and the hellish process of dealing with insurance is evidence of that.
But I think the post suffers from applying the “EFT” label a bit too broadly, and for circumstances that are far more nuanced than “theft”.
I'm one of those people who usually had a little too much work to do, but still felt bad when no one else volunteers for a task.
Often I'll offer to take it.
I'd end up enjoying work less & less and got a bit disgruntled until I was back to my base-line of work.
I definitely see it as a weakness in me, but also in my manager who let it happen.
As I got older, I started to work at around 90% capacity and grab a tea or chat with a colleague or do some admin for the remainder. This enabled me to jump on to urgent requests and even make extra efforts like physically walking over to discuss the matter.
This also enabled me to look out for junior colleagues who seemed a bit stressed.
Exactly. Conscientiousness is a personality trait and those who are lucky enough (yes it is highly correlated with positive life outcomes) to have it in abundance would do well to calibrate their expectations of others accordingly.
I dunno, I can see it both ways. The front-loaded email style or eschewing social media certainly make life easier for others. But on the other hand, many of his examples of Monastic deep workers (Einstein, Darwin) absolutely relied on those around them to function. I think mentioning the book in this context is valid; the book has very little to say about the consequences of deep work behaviours on others, and that might be a failing.
> But on the other hand, many of his examples of Monastic deep workers (Einstein, Darwin) absolutely relied on those around them to function.
Every one of us relies on those around us to function. Walking into a grocery store and buying food that’s ready to eat just scratches the surface of this reliance.
Humans are fundamentally a cooperative species, which has enabled collective outcomes that would be impossible if we reduced our reliance on others.
This becomes a problem when people are treated poorly in the process. Slavery is the obvious extreme, and various kinds of discrimination and power plays are some of the bad behaviors that emerge from this social reliance.
But reliance is not in itself a problem. It’s at the core of being human.
I would reiterate that the existence of bad behavior that enables focus for one person at the expense of others with no fair exchange of value is not an intrinsic consequence of the ideas in Deep Work.
Cal also writes about reverse office hours.
The idea is that instead of holding a 1 hour meeting where every person only has a small contribution to make (in the realm of 5 minutes or less), they don't attend that meeting but rather the person with the objective that needs input from several different players is tasked with going to the different players when it's convenient to the ones you need the small contributions from.
So I don't think Cal is only interested in optimizing his own life and dumping everything EFT style onto others.
Undoubtedly it was easier for Darwin to work 4 deep work hours a day because he didn't have to handle the kids, prepare the food, clean the house and mow the lawn and work in the garden.
Based on having read Cal a lot I haven't seen him advocate this selfishness in the modern world.
Was that on his blog, or in the book? Maybe I glazed over. I think it would be interesting to see him write something from the perspective of "optimising other peoples' time" to be honest. Many of the patterns do it implicitly, he's just never considered explicitly how your deep work habits can help others (afaik).
I think the argument's slightly more subtle than that - you don't have to advocate for it, it just naturally happens. Maybe it's viewing executive function as a zero sum game, where if I get some you lose some. I think we've all come up with examples that show that's not universally true, although we haven't proved it doesn't just kinda implicitly happen.
I'm currently in the position of being a carer, and large uninterrupted blocks of time are basically impossible for me right now. It's frustrating for everyone involved. Would the author of the linked piece say that I'm being robbed of my executive function because I'm looking after a sick partner? I think her model might be deepity in the Daniel Dennett sense - sounds good on the surface, but has too many exceptions to be useful. As someone else said, we're all interdependent (today's post about us all being temporarily abled fits in here somewhere). I'm not going anywhere with this, I've just been musing a lot about executive function lately.
Dumping shallow work onto other people is not only legit but often necessary. It's just economics 101. Before computer was invented, "computers" were people who did the ultimate shallow work - computing - so the mathematicians could actually do math.
Inventing shallow work, however, is the root of evil.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I do think there’s a case to be made that such dumping needs to happen more mindfully than it has in the past, and/or in some cases isn’t dumping at all, but just a division of roles/responsibilities (which I think is what you’re getting at).
But in any case, this is not what the book is about.
1. A lot of shallow work doesn’t need to happen at all. It’s not about offloading it, it’s about stopping altogether, or automating it.
2. When this isn’t possible, structure your workday to preserve uninterrupted blocks of deep work. Do the shallow tasks mindfully in batches, instead of letting them constantly steal your attention throughout the day.
3. Use tools like your calendar to schedule shallow and deep periods of work.
A big part of the book is focused on defining the problems that constant interruptions cause so as to deepen the motivation to actually institute habit changes.
He was also ahead of the curve encouraging people to step away from social media in favor of local interactions.
I personally read the book as a person who is probably the poster child for being a “victim” of “EFT”. I was in a role where my attention was constantly demanded/stolen, and I needed to find strategies to make the best of the situation. At no point was this exploration about offloading things to other people.
It’s a good book, and I highly recommend that people read it. Now more than ever.
It’s also worth noting that his next books were “Digital Minimalism” and “A world without email”. He focuses on the theme of technology and information overload. Issues that I think many people are starting to realize are a real problem in their lives.
My parents did this to me the whole time I lived with them whenever they had to do something involving the computer. It was exhausting and infuriating. "It's so easy for you and so hard for me" - it wouldn't be hard if you'd start trying and stop making yourself helpless.
personally love it when family asks me for help with computers as its piss easy work that does them a huge favor, you and the author share a perspective that i dont
You liked being called out of your room ten times a day for some bullshit you've already explained a million times? Being asked to type something because you type faster?
Thief is the perfect word. Instead of using their own brains they stole mine. I don't know how someone does this and isn't ashamed of themselves. I'm so glad I don't have to live the life of a helper monkey for the terminally lazy anymore. Magically they managed to survive on their own once I moved out. Go figure.
This is way too common with some people as they get older. They refuse to learn how to use a computer, a phone, or they even refuse to read utility bills or bank statements and ask others to summarise them for them. On the other hand they don't have a problem learning what all the buttons do in their new fancy car.
In the same way that your family has a different capacity for using the computer, other people have a different capacity to field interruptions or to spare their attention. Something that may be pleasant for you might be really taxing for someone else. That doesn't invalidate either experience.
In disability advocacy this is sometimes called spoon theory. This is somewhat offtopic but one of my favorite sci-fi short stories is about this concept.
I personally had no shortage of ability to do the thing and continue working on my own stuff all day at that age; what made me angry was feeling that my time was needlessly wasted by people who were merely lazy and could figure these very simple things out on their own if they actually tried instead of using me as an escape hatch at the first inkling of uncertainty.
What the author calls theft is neither theft, nor any other for of unethical behavior, as far as I can tell from her description.
I could just as easily say that she has committed theft of my attention span because I had to read her ill-considered opinion in order to fairly criticize it. But I won't say that, because it was my choice to do so and I am not a victim.
She seems to be trying to criminalize the ordinary back and forth of social life. We have roles and make use of those roles. We have power and make use of it. For instance, her description of the healthcare situation is all covered, directly or indirectly, in her contract with the healthcare insurance provider; or else it is simply a matter of saying no. Don't do any of that work. Suffer the consequences. It's not theft-- it's the marketplace at work.
How long before someone calls EFT a "microaggression?" Yet another front in the culture wars will open up between people who can't be bothered to assert themselves (and apparently, according to her, women don't assert themselves very much) and those who put the energy in to be assertive.
So when an employee shunts a task off onto a coworker abusing their agreeableness, you're saying that other coworker deserves it and that the first employee is morally justified because they haven't "put in the energy" to be assertive in a hostile working relationship?
Almost any request can be framed as abuse in this manner. "Some stranger asked me to stand still on the street the whole day, he abused my agreeableness".
Imo it is not abuse if there isn't any threat and you simply can say no. If you keep saying yes to everything you coworkers ask from you, what do you expect is going to happen? It is your own responsibility to not be a doormat, that is abusing yourself.
One answer: You are responsible for your agreeableness. Your agreeableness is an OFFER to the people around you. Stop making offers that you resent honoring.
Another equally valid answer: If I care about you, and to the degree I care about you, I willingly modify my behavior to help you live better and more happily, regardless of the how you may deserve or not deserve it.
My wife is one of those people who will work themselves to the point of collapse without complaining. I have to be careful what I ask for because she will assign herself secret tasks to provide it. I don’t lecture her on how she deserves her misery, I remind her that I am the only person around here who swore an oath to help her, and she should ask me for what she wants and expect me to provide it. Then I try to volunteer when I see her working at something I can do. And I try to make myself easy to approach. After 32 years we have a pretty good understanding— but her endurance is worsening over time and so there are new challenges.
I would love to see a follow-up article entitled "Why I can't 'just say "no"'". That's what I'd do (albeit in more diplomatic language) so I am extremely curious why others don't or can't. The author does touch on this briefly, mentioning that in The No Club
> the authors found that when they turned something down, another woman — usually one with less power — was asked
So perhaps partly it comes from a desire to help those weaker than oneself. But there must be more to it than that!
I think the author found the reason pretty clearly; this is the issue I run into all the time when a shit-task is thrown at my team. There are simply too many people bringing tasks that need to be done, but not necessarily by our team. I am comfortable telling people "no, this is not our team's responsibility, we don't have the time right now with our current bandwidth", but many people on my team are not. Worse, when I say "no", it's not uncommon that the task will still be presented to someone on my team without my knowledge, and my team will _gladly_ accept because they're not comfortable saying "no" to these persons (power dynamic, a lot of "fights" have happened trying to resist such requests).
I do tell the team just to ignore those requests and report them to me, yet the people making the bad requests just get more aggressive with their requests, either exaggerating the importance, exaggerating the requestor's "right" to assign the task to my team, etc.
The end result is that we end up closing the means to talk to my team or I am brought in more often to deny the requests, which means I'm spending more time explaining why we aren't doing stupid and wasteful things like giving some sales teams' client free work for a year (can easily cost 6 or 7 figures USD) without getting proper approvals from all the teams required to provide that work. Examples _like_ this happen way too often and it can be weeks worth of emotional meetings explaining why the original requestor needs to deal with the mess they made themselves.
My team is a bunch of IT professionals, and they should be doing IT work, not spending weeks convincing other teams to clean up the messes they made or preventing months of commitments for projects that should never have been approved, and it does _NOT_ feel good or right at all to make them constantly do something that is objectively not their job, and the end result is I end up burning out badly intercepting all of these requests.
The article was very relatable for me and EFT is a term I am going to be using moving forward.
But my personal frustration with scenarios that I've dealt with isn't about specific groups, it's that I imagine myself in like a kids TV show and we're all having to participate while some person in the company learns the value of being honest and taking responsibility for their mistakes.
except unlike a TV show, the stuff isn't resolved in 22 minutes, it takes months, if we ever resolve it, and it creates a lot of stress, frustration, anger, and costs a lot money.
and the person(s) who caused all of this don't learn anything except how to make someone else deal with the fallout of their bad decisions :))))
In some cases, sure. But how many times have you had to attend to an email chain that went on way too long? Maybe a meeting is better if a decision can be reached more succinctly via a directed discussion.
The main assumption in this article is that "ego depletion" is real. It may not be, see Wikipedia [1]. Psychology is in a big replication crisis, and the ego depletion stuff is all tangled up in it. There's a real possibility that this "theft" only exists by virtue of you believing in it. I'm aware there's a lot of hedging to be done here (experiences of people with ADHD, etc.).
I don't like calling this kind of experience "theft". I much prefer the framing around community service work: boring tasks that are essential for the community's well-being. If someone is not doing their part, they are being an asshole and should be made to (or get kicked out of the community). Emphasizing the communal aspect means you stand up for everybody, not just yourself. It promotes fairness for everybody, not just for yourself. It empowers everybody in the group because you are collectively taking care of this work. And it'll be more effective in practice because the "offender" is getting shamed by everybody, instead of you just whining about your own injustice.
I am seeing a variation of this play out slowly at work, which I definitely would call theft. For context, we have a bonus structure in place that awards bonuses for performance. The actual measurement of work done is actually pretty alright, as it's left to human judgement and not just numbers. However, it creates a severe moral hazard - I am incentivised to spend as little time as possible on each task, so that I can finish more tasks and appear more productive at the end of the quarter.
I often run into code where it seems the author left a lot of tech debt for the sake of fixing the one task they were given. We have processes in place that are meant to prevent bad code from getting into master, and they do work - you can't just sneak absolute garbage past code review, but still everyone involved is incentivised to only let through the minimum acceptable version of the code that will hold together until bonuses are calculated next quarter. The part where this becomes theft is when next quarter your mess impedes my progress, my velocity goes down, which means my bonus goes down, which means you have literally stolen money from me.
I often think about this when interacting with commercial software that has bugs and rough edges. Am I in pain right now because somebody maximised their performance bonus three years ago? Are these issues the results not of incompetence, but of simple min-maxing? At the end, we all reap what we sow, and I can but hope that my mortgage gets paid before the reaper comes to harvest.
When I hear a correlation expressed as causation, I try to turn it around to check whether it makes more sense that way.
"If you believe that ego depletion is real, you experience it." -- wow, sounds spooky, fascinating if true
"If you experience ego depletion, you believe that it is real." -- yes thank you, Captain Obvious
To me it seems like different people have different capacity for making decisions (that's kinda what ADHD is about). If you can make 10 different decisions a day, but you are required to make 20, you experience "ego depletion". If you can make 30 different decisions a day, but you are required to make 20, you laugh at the idea of "ego depletion", and you can even help to debunk it experimentally by increasing the required decisions to 25 which you can still do easily.
An analogy would be if you talked to people who have broken legs and found out that they are unable to run. So you come with a hypothesis "all people are unable to run". Then someone else tests the hypothesis using both people who have broken legs and people who are okay, and then conclude "actually, the only people unable to run are those who believe that they are unable to run", which is technically true, but misses the part where the people believing that they cannot run are the ones with broken legs.
Fair point, but I don't think it's quite clear what I'm getting at. I think most people sometimes have the sensation that they want to turn off their brain and just do nothing.
The picture ego depletion paints is that a) this is caused by making decisions and b) there is nothing to be done about it. I don't think either of those is true. Some decisions might be stressful and they could certainly contribute, but choosing what's for dinner is not in that category. And even if I'm tired and just chilling with some video games, I might be making decisions around builds, where to go next, etc.
I agree that it is not the number of decisions, but how stressful they are. And if you have control of the environment, you could e.g. make some processes less stressful.
> Some decisions might be stressful and they could certainly contribute, but choosing what's for dinner is not in that category.
Ah, depends on whether one has an autistic child that has a tantrum whenever the dinner does not fit their unclearly communicated criteria. Then it can easily be the most stressful task of the day. :D
Generally, I'd like to push back against that "most people sometimes have the sensation" part, because that's basically true for everything. (Depression? Most people sometimes feel sad. Dyslexia? Most people sometimes make a mistake when reading.) That's the point of some mental problems that yes, most people experience it sometimes in an extreme situation, but unfortunately you experience it every day. And the people who experience it only once in a while are happy to provide you advice about what works for them, assuming that it must automatically work the same for you, or you are just lazy and not trying hard enough.
I think the questionable assumption is that people have some sort of fixed, intrinsic capacity for decision-making that is somehow distinct from other stable personality traits.
It's a hypothesis, but just because it intuitively makes more sense for you if you flip the causation in the correlation around doesn't mean that the causation actually goes in that direction. You would still need to actually back this up by experiment.
It never made sense to me how this theory treats all decisions as fungible.
Go for a short walk through the woods and you've made hundreds of decisions including where to step, what scenery to look at, how to respond to a noise you heard, etc. but that experience is generally considered refreshing.
Meanwhile, your whole day might be dampered if you have just one really important decision looming over you, or which you just made and are unsure about.
If I'm writing a fun personal code project then none of the decisions faze me, but if I'm fixing a bug in some awful code I might need a break.
Diagnosed with ADHD myself. The prescribed stimulants definitely make it easier to deal with annoying decisions.
I noticed mental fatigue around a task is just an illusion I might have picked up from observing others? If I just don't think about it, I can start on a big daunting thing and just keep going, like I always tended to do in the past. If I let others' descriptions of task paralysis or whatever seep into my head then it gets harder.
I think a more accurate word might be "enslavement".
A person, a group of people, or an explicit social system, has decided to override my goals without replacing my behavior. Without fighting them directly, I am left to execute behaviors that meet their goals. The very context of my executive functioning has been replaced with arbitrary constraints.
Who determines the goals of "everybody"? No one can!
> The main assumption in this article is that "ego depletion" is real. It may not be, see Wikipedia [1].
I think your focus is slightly off the mark here. The problem is that people are being given mentally intensive tasks that are treated as mentally trivial, so their cognitive capacity gets drained invisibly. Your brain can absolutely get tired, and when it does, it's very hard to perform cognitive tasks.
It's not ego depletion, it's exhaustion from mental work.
While I dislike the content of the article, the term is brilliant. This happens so often when I’m teaching someone an advanced programming topic and the person just starts to completely overwhelm you with small decisions they have to make and ignore the direct feedback you give them to do so.
Bad communication is EFT on steroids. Bad spelling and grammar, using jargon not already widely understood, taking things for granted, expecting everybody else to fill in the (huge) gaps, not making it clear who you expect to do what, making assertions related to critical decisions without backing them with a reference, and so on.
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[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 317 ms ] threadIt's only the 'deny use' half of 'theft', ie it's more like DoS.
Theft implies taking something that isn’t yours to take, which appropriately shames the perpetrator of their actions.
IIUC, they do—the thief delegates tedious, finicky work to preserve their own executive function for “important stuff”. They don’t have more executive function than before the task existed, but they do have more than before they delegated it, and the delegation is the theft.
The article is just describing a phenomenon where the people with the power to decide who works on what are not the people in the explicit power structure, and thus don't have the same accountability that usually comes with that power?
It's almost as if they want to be little assembly line workers that make the same CRUD widget over and over. They're not lazy, they're probably also just as stripped of their EF as the rest of us plebs.
When the "non-promotable work" of a firm, community, or family gets done "the rising tide raises all boats" if that work is necessary for the organization's profitability and/or autopoiesis.
I am confused as to how you don't see the profit in delegating.
Edit: for example, if I were to borrow your lawn mower with out asking, mow my lawn, and then--crucially--return your lawnmower wouldn't that be theft? Even though you'd only been "denied service" and not lost an entire mower?
In your analogy, it would be more like I'd contacted the housing association to force you to mow your driveway, denying you the time to properly manicure your lawn. I'm not gaining any improvement to my lawn in that case.
The claim is that, instead of you mowing your lawn, you get someone else to do it. What you gain is time, and reduced cognitive load.
It's kind of a childish thing to say about your manager since that is just how the cookie crumbles, but still a real exchange. Managers delegate certain tasks so they have time to focus on other tasks. Some managers delegate almost everything and leave you wondering if they do anything at all.
The person in the article feels their partner is also delegating to them and so they feel as though they have no executive function by the end of the day.
In regards to work though, that is just how some jobs are structured. You get paid to take certain load off of your 2IC or Manager or whoever.
Perhaps a better example is when a manager delegates tasks, which is what the article is ultimately complaining about. No money changes hands. The manager gains time and room for focus on other tasks, by delegating menial focus sapping tasks to other people. I think the article is a bit silly, because that is the point of the separation of those roles, but they aren't ultimately wront about what is happening.
I am sorry, but I re-read the article and still cannot understand why you believe this. The author gives three major examples:
1. Customer EFT: "sitting on hold with the company that manages my health flexible spending account"
2. Workplace EFT: "they see a need to be filled or have been asked or tasked with taking on more"
3. Household EFT: "Having a husband creates an extra seven hours a week of housework for women."
You seem to be interpreting the article as primarily about #2, Workplace EFT, and furthermore about one facet of workplace political dynamics, namely command hierarchy.
I'll allow that command hierarchies are nominally the principal aspect of a corporation, but one of the author's goals, I believe, is to shed light on the dynamics surrounding and running obliquely to that aspect. She takes pains to emphasize the gendered and allegedly random way "those tasks so often fall to the same group of people". The tasks about which the author complains are explicitly not those within one's job title and/or line of duty but, rather, the surreptitious assignment of service to which the employee did not explicitly consent when taking the job but now "feel they cannot turn down".
Long story short, I am a little blown away with your assertion that "the article is ultimately complaining about" something which is at the most tangential to the article's subject and possibly even--as in my interpretation--deliberately not being addressed.
> The thief has chosen to prioritize their executive function over another person’s and, having found that this makes their lives easier, repeats this behavior unless it is disrupted.
(Emphasis added.) By imposing the executive function-depleting responsibility onto others, they reserve EF capacity of their own which they wouldn’t otherwise specifically by extracting that cost from others.
I think of theft is something that you catch someone for and punish and potentially get back what was lost or some of it. Negative externalities I think of as something that needs to regulated legally or through some other feedback mechanism.
So what happens when my executive functioning is stolen? Debt. I am eternally indebted to any task that demanded more executive functioning than I could provide. And society demands I pay up one way or another: that's the ADHD tax. Couldn't finish homework? Gotta stay after school. Couldn't work on the company project before its deadline? Get fired. Couldn't cold-call 2 dozen mental health clinics to find an opening that works with my insurance? No meds or therapy for me.
Every social system that interacts with me is designed with a baseline expectation of executive functioning: I experience that as a DDoS attack.
I think both terms are correct, and you are welcome to use whichever best fits the context you are using it in.
When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When writing a jeremiad, anything becomes weighty evidence.
(And this is a different claim than that the author is essentially jumping at shadows, which is fine, I think it's a reasonable take, but that's what I was originally responding to.)
Even if it were, theft is a far cry from inciting violence. Eg if I advocated shoplifting (don't shoplift) I wouldn't be inciting violence, I'd be inciting shoplifting. (Theft by violent means is called robbery.)
> (Theft by violent means is called robbery.)
(Legally, that's not accurate.)
_Morally_, all theft is violence. Shoplifting a pack of chewing gum is extremely minor, almost zero but it's not zero. Shoplifting also includes the "flash mobs" which run in and steam items, or the folks who walk into stores (e.g. in California) with trash bags and loot as much as they can fit because they know the employees won't touch them and the legal punishment is almost zero.
That certainly wasn't what I meant by shoplifting but if I said, "we should all start going to big box stores with trash bags and stealing stuff, because the employees will not resist us and we won't have to fear a physical altercation" (again, don't do that, that's not my real position, you shouldn't steal shit) I don't think that is reasonable to call "inciting violence." Inciting violence is literally calling for people to be hurt or killed.
I don't really want to quibble about the precise definition of words, my problem with that comment was that it seemed like an escalation from nowhere, disconnected from what the author was actually arguing for.
Is taking things that belong to someone else not hurting them?
If people steal so much that the business has to close, have the owners been hurt? The employees are now out of jobs -- have they been hurt?
Maybe it doesn't force the business to close, they just have to raise prices on everyone else. Or they have to lay one of their employees off.
Petty theft is still theft. Small injuries are still injuries. Small violence is still violence.
Agreed. But at no point does theft automatically equate to violence. Theft can be violent. Not all theft is violent.
Equating everything to “violence” is just significantly lowering the resolution and intelligibility of the concept conveyed.
Maybe I just think theft is worse, and that violence is relatively less unacceptable than you do.
(To make my ethical position explicit, I believe in nonviolence and I don't believe in theft. But I don't think that's relevant to a discussion about a turn of phrase.)
In the examples of Newport and Ferriss, the author ironically cites the cure for EFT as the problem. At a high level, net value of any task is gross value - effort value. Newport’s point isn’t to not do small tasks but make time for big ones, and if less important tasks fall by the wayside, then better those than significant work. Ferriss’ point is that of Ricardoian economics at a micro level: not all tasks can be done with equal efficiency by different people, thus route tasks to where they are most efficiently performed.
Irony aside, the essay could be categorized as reverse-CBT. Read more about Lukianoff’s idea at the link below:
https://heterodoxacademy.org/resources/the-coddling-of-the-a...
You're gloating and high fiving yourself for insulting someone on the internet, in the same breath you're asserting that person isn't well adjusted and needs to go to therapy. I'm not impressed.
> Not all tasks can be done with equal efficiency by different people, thus route tasks to where they are most efficiently performed.
The author is asserting some people "route" tasks that don't get them promoted to others. Your counter assertion is that those people are more efficient at not getting promoted?
> Irony aside, the essay could be categorized as reverse-CBT.
This is dangerously close to gaslighting. The author writes about personal experience, and you're asserting it's a product on insufficient therapy or is some kind of anti therapy.
I have insulted no person or thing. This statement appears to be mind-reading itself a straw man.
Don’t lie. I did not write that anyone “needs to go to therapy.” If you care to reply, please address the fact that you lied.
> The author is asserting some people "route" tasks that don't get them promoted to others. Your counter assertion is that those people are more efficient at not getting promoted?
No
>This is dangerously close to gaslighting. The author writes about personal experience, and you're asserting it's a product on insufficient therapy or is some kind of anti therapy.
Thank you for asserting my off hand comment isn’t some bad thing. Read the linked article describing reverse CBT. If you disagree that the EFT author’s mindset towards work isn’t that of reverse CBT, I look forward to rethinking it.
Bullshit. You said they were engaging in the inverse of therapy. You leveled various insults at the author.
> No
It was a rhetorical question. So, "yes," I guess.
> If you disagree that the EFT author’s mindset towards work isn’t that of reverse CBT, I look forward to rethinking it.
You don't need me for that. (And yes, I disagree.)
Again, like your lies about what is written, you lie about “various insults at the author.” It’s plain to see that there is no insult in what was written, especially since you can’t be bothered to quote anything.
You can lie, you can disagree while covering your ears, hopefully one day you can come to grips with the world as it is even if today is not that day.
Good luck with all of that.
This description fits very well.
I definitely get bank EFT (pun not intended), I deal with this by having recurring todos with all the links and stuff I need to smash it out quickly. The idea is to offload from CPU (executive/conscious) to GPU (habits/unconscious)
When talking about this I thought EFT was going to lead to how Twitter and other dopamine hits stop you from getting important stuff done.
Executive Function is a term commonly thrown around in the autistic and ADHD spaces. When read in that context, it makes a *lot* more sense.
From what I hear, neurotypical people have a much higher tolerance for bullshit work and wasteful process. I wouldn't know what that feels like. Beyond 1 or 2 wasted steps and I get mad that someone has designed a process that's actively hostile to its users.
People who tolerate it create the Red Queen Problem that kills so many projects. It’s the people who don’t tolerate that shit that put a stop to it.
If a task expects too much executive functioning from my ADHD brain, I literally cannot complete the task.
Of course, that sounds a lot more binary than it is: my executive functioning is a product of complex neurochemical interactions. The right balance of medication might give me enough stimulation to do the thing. Stress and adrenaline might give me enough stimulation to do the thing. I might be able to get started, but get stuck halfway through. All I can say for certain (predictably) is that my brain naturally lives below that stimulation threshold.
Years of living without medication (I was diagnosed in my late 20s) left my brain to create habits that try (and fail) to compensate. The main habit I have recognized is an obsession with objectivity: if I could just think about the problem enough to factor out the work, then I wouldn't need to do anything! The result is a collection of knowledge and understanding that isn't tied to experience or achievement. I'm still trying to get the hang of action: moving toward a goal.
Most people can't even imagine what I'm going through. For them, inconvenience is just something they live through. For me, inconvenience is the walls of an endless maze. I would very much like to leave.
> the other person is getting to relax or to plan a project?
Habits and subconscious thinking helps, but you do still have to do those tasks, and it does still take thought. You still have to write them down, set up todos, etc.
The idea is that cleaning/chores requires a lot of small things, that isn’t fun, but is mentally taxing. Planning meals, cooking, cleaning, tracking what needs to be cleaned next, timers, etc is the EF being “stolen”.
The ADHD tax is real, and this article calls out its mechanism exactly, though not by this name.
If yours is usable and if you want to get the benefits and struggle with the mental overhead (like me), the way I solved it might help. I projected the expenses we were almost certain to have (took about a minute.) Then I put a range on the expenses we'd probably have. That's where I set the FSA withdrawals. There was realistically a 0% chance I was going to lose money with the FSA. If gambling stresses you out, just do a conservative amount and be content with the savings from that.
That was 2022. For 2023, FSA planning was easy because I knew I'd be paying for orthodontics, so I just set it at maximum and spent the whole thing up front in January. I'll probably be back to a lower amount next year. It takes a minute to update the withdrawal in our benefits portal during open enrollment.
HSAs are a very good tax dodge retirement account, so you should figure them out. Except in California they're supposed to be taxed. Except… HSA providers don't give you the forms you'd need to report HSA investment gains, so it is literally impossible to report them.
Similarly, my work has two options for commuter benefits. Monthly transit passes or like a $20/mo bike credit. The transit passes process automatically and do not accumulate. The bike credits can in theory accumulate but you need to manually manage these more that, bring receipts, the whole thing. Even though I’m an avid cyclist and spend well more than $20 on my bike related activities every month, the shenanigans around it just make it unusable to me.
If you spend everything in your FSA in January and quit your job, the company has to eat the loss.
(IANAL, blah blah blah)
To guardrail the process, i've integrated my FSA with a small app I wrote as a hobby project that automatically flags eligible transactions. This largely automates the reimbursement procedure, significantly reducing the overhead of manual management and making sure I don't miss much heh.
And in terms of the risk of forfeiture, this conservative approach coupled with the aforementioned automation has safeguarded me against major losses and kept my exposure low. I think the benefits of FSAs are hard to ignore, but they do necessitate a bit more touch than other expenditure vehicles to be sure.
The author is unhappy with the social order, which is fine. Her error and transgression is in the misappropriation of the concept of “theft.” That is an important concept. We use it to keep order.
It’s like someone pulling a fire alarm to report that she feels really hot.
Some people believe that we owe it to one another to be considerate to one another, ie to take responsibility for one another's emotional well-being.
Yes, that "underlying idea" is actually quite common in polite society if not outright ubiquitous. In fact, I'm fairly certain that its absence is considered a psychological pathology.
It's not right to cry "theft" as if it is unethical to leave things undone that should not be done by anyone, or as if it is unethical to delegate to people to whom it is in your lawful power to delegate. It is, in a way, EVIL, to call that theft. It trivializes the notion of theft.
I understand that Newport argues that and tasks shouldn't be done at all, but this is not at all a fair representation of the author's position.
> It is, in a way, EVIL, to call that theft. It trivializes the notion of theft.
You can critique their rhetoric but "evil" is an overreaction. Indeed, your critique that they are weakening the definition of theft applies to your use of "evil".
That being said, I would be happy to see us hold one another to higher empathic standards than have been expected in corporate culture for the last century. At least one 2008 research study suggests that Narcissistic Personality Inventory scores were on the rise since 1989[0]--among undoubtedly WEIRD[1] college students.
0. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5342670_Egos_Inflat...
1. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/05/weird
If it's a coworker you can ignore it.
If it's your manager and for whatever reason you deem it unfair, reflect on exactly why, then bring it up with the manager, then see if you can align. If not, start looking for other options.
Whether these things are hard or not, is a different and independent issue. New things in life are usually hard.
a good example is microsoft outlook. meeting invites would pop a mandatory three way choice of "send the response now, send the response later or edit the response before sending" every time the accept button was pressed.
a truly infuriating case of eft.
OK, but it's already called decision fatigue. And it doesn't seem as if the essay is identifying a novel pathology either.
it's like when you have to deal with a smarmy individual. any given instance of smarminess is fine on its face, but the cumulative sum can be unbearable.
Tangentially, this is a common problem in relationships. "You never do the dishes", "you never do the laundry"...
My headcanon for these mismatches is that people have different thresholds of activation. In a relationship, it's useful to state these explicitly ("Oh I only do laundry when I'm close to running out of underwear") before resentment sets in.
> "You never do the dishes"
means:
You ignore how much more difficult it is to get rid of those little pantry flies, roaches, and/or ants once they find a food/crumb source vs. consistently blocking the impetus for that class of problem to manifest itself. (Or, depending on your locale, perhaps just minimizing that problem as much as possible.)
Moreover, your philosophy of free agency doesn't take into account the resulting increase in your stress level from clutter and lack of clean utensils, and how that increased stress-- probably paired with a reluctance to acknowledge and deal with common stressors generally-- ends up confining your choices in ways that become frustratingly predictable over time. That's not to mention your attempts to hide your disgust when you pick up a dirty plate to reveal mold or wiggling pantry fly eggs, as if denial of an emotion negates the existence of that emotion. And finally, there's the effect that disgust has on your general mood, and even subtle though detectable changes to your opinions given we feeble humans process both physical and conceptual disgust in the same part of our brains.
> "you never do the laundry"...
means:
Pleasant odors and shared work tend to have positive affects on a woman's libido.
I have no idea about pleasant odours but can see how not having ones standards respect could be a libido killer; just part of the complexities of a relationship/cohabitation.
My wife sometimes does most of the dishes before she even starts eating. If I followed the customs of the home I grew up in, my wife would end up doing the dishes every single meal before I even get to the sink. Obviously I have learned to adapt to the situation, but my point is that it’s a bit unfair to characterize every mismatch in expectations as evidence of abject filth and slobbery on the part of the husband.
You're describing a hypothetical man who thinks dishes should be left in the sink until they grow mold and attract pests. Obviously mold and pests are bad, so this hypothetical man would be in the wrong.
But, most real relationship conflicts don't fit that hypothetical description! For example, last year there was a discussion on HN about leaving a dirty dish by the sink: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31000658 There was no mold or pantry fly eggs in that situation; the wife was upset about any dirty dishes being left by the sink at all, even a once-used glass of water.
And that's a much more complicated situation. It's common for different people to have different expectations for cleanliness: a husband might think it's OK for an empty glass of water to be left on the counter if he might drink from it later, but the wife might think that's "dirty". These are different points of view, and neither one is necessarily wrong.
Sometimes people try to frame this as "the husband is sexist and trying to make his wife do the chores" (or "he's inflicting executing function theft on her") but I don't think that's a correct or helpful framing. Like writeslowly and AceJohnny2 wrote above, this is a case of different people having different standards. That doesn't necessarily mean the one with lower standards is committing "executive function theft" on the one with higher standards.
Eggs don't wiggle. Those are larvae. Maggots, baby.
To make matters much worse, one week, an elm / functional programming purist in the team started making a lot of noise. they believed in sticking strictly to the core principles of elm and basically avoiding 3p dependencies like the plague. while they were generally respectful and i respected their dedication, it became another thing to juggle. trying to mediate between that guy and those more pragmatic about our deadlines was taxing.
I realized that amidst all this, my primary role of mentoring others and solving higher level engineering challenges was getting overshadowed by these micro-decisions and tasks. it was like being in the middle of a sea, trying to stay afloat, while holding onto a bundle of papers. EFT, as described here, is a term that captures this perfectly. it's so essential to be aware of it, especially in the tech world where the lines often blur between roles and responsibilities, and especially in engineering leadership. Love having a word for this now that I'm in a position to mentor people who are new to engineering leadership
This describes my situation - and I suspect that of many others here. It’d be great to have some insight into how you navigated all this.
Top-down isn't necessarily always bad. It's the result that counts. Top-down decision making has different trade-offs from bottom-up, so sometimes it's the better choice.
Bottom-up has more insights in details, top-down has a wider view. Bottom-up gets deeper commitment, top-down gets faster compliance. Bottom-up gets a thousand blooms blooming, top-down gets a unified vision.
The important thing is to mentor those who show willingness to pay this investment forward. I've never been in a situation with a completely green team but hopefully when I do I can navigate the role of empowering others to navigate some of that mentoring challenge.
I see many companies treating their customers like criminals or slaves; many more than used to pull that stuff. It's only going to get worse.
So many times I've looked at a reminder email, put it aside because it pisses me off. Yes I have the money to pay, yes its like 2mins to do in my banking app, yes I will settle it, but No I won't do it now that you effing emailed me about it. I'll do it on my own time...and then I forget till the next annoying reminder email that pisses me off even more.
Some days I wonder if some of this stuff is normal or if it's just me. I'd love to just have an assistant to offload this mental drain to either way.
On the psychological side, I know what you mean but you do seem to be taking things a bit personally. Yes, businesses are big and impersonal and automated, because society is big and impersonal and we have access to a huge range of services, we can't change much based on how pissed off we are.
AI assistants to make life easier for us must only be a year or two away.
Personal opinion, when that person is your boss, just do your job.
When that organization is supposed to serve you but makes you do work, look for an alternative.
It’s pretty weird to me that this is what the author took from Deep Work. Then again, they admitted that they didn’t read it fully.
The message of the book is not to dump your shallow work onto other people. It is to eliminate the “shallow” work entirely when possible, and to be mindful of the pitfalls of context switching when such work can’t be avoided. Nor is the word “shallow” used to describe anything other than the difference between something that requires deep focus to accomplish vs. something that does not. It’s not used in a dismissive or demeaning way.
The author is looking for things in that book that do not exist, and worse, using it as a reference to prove the point of the post.
I agree that dark patterns exist, and the hellish process of dealing with insurance is evidence of that.
But I think the post suffers from applying the “EFT” label a bit too broadly, and for circumstances that are far more nuanced than “theft”.
Where it can be a problem is when there are "attentive" people on a team and "inattentive" people who are ostensibly equals.
Team members with higher conscientiousness tend to get lumped with an outsized share of undesirable, low impact busywork because others won't do it.
This dynamic can cause problems in all sorts of groups and also at home.
I'm one of those people who usually had a little too much work to do, but still felt bad when no one else volunteers for a task.
Often I'll offer to take it.
I'd end up enjoying work less & less and got a bit disgruntled until I was back to my base-line of work.
I definitely see it as a weakness in me, but also in my manager who let it happen.
As I got older, I started to work at around 90% capacity and grab a tea or chat with a colleague or do some admin for the remainder. This enabled me to jump on to urgent requests and even make extra efforts like physically walking over to discuss the matter. This also enabled me to look out for junior colleagues who seemed a bit stressed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
I agree. I get shit on at work and at home.
The author referencing the book in this context is in complete bad faith.
Every one of us relies on those around us to function. Walking into a grocery store and buying food that’s ready to eat just scratches the surface of this reliance.
Humans are fundamentally a cooperative species, which has enabled collective outcomes that would be impossible if we reduced our reliance on others.
This becomes a problem when people are treated poorly in the process. Slavery is the obvious extreme, and various kinds of discrimination and power plays are some of the bad behaviors that emerge from this social reliance.
But reliance is not in itself a problem. It’s at the core of being human.
I would reiterate that the existence of bad behavior that enables focus for one person at the expense of others with no fair exchange of value is not an intrinsic consequence of the ideas in Deep Work.
So I don't think Cal is only interested in optimizing his own life and dumping everything EFT style onto others.
Undoubtedly it was easier for Darwin to work 4 deep work hours a day because he didn't have to handle the kids, prepare the food, clean the house and mow the lawn and work in the garden. Based on having read Cal a lot I haven't seen him advocate this selfishness in the modern world.
I think the argument's slightly more subtle than that - you don't have to advocate for it, it just naturally happens. Maybe it's viewing executive function as a zero sum game, where if I get some you lose some. I think we've all come up with examples that show that's not universally true, although we haven't proved it doesn't just kinda implicitly happen.
I'm currently in the position of being a carer, and large uninterrupted blocks of time are basically impossible for me right now. It's frustrating for everyone involved. Would the author of the linked piece say that I'm being robbed of my executive function because I'm looking after a sick partner? I think her model might be deepity in the Daniel Dennett sense - sounds good on the surface, but has too many exceptions to be useful. As someone else said, we're all interdependent (today's post about us all being temporarily abled fits in here somewhere). I'm not going anywhere with this, I've just been musing a lot about executive function lately.
Either avoid the need for them or automate them.
Inventing shallow work, however, is the root of evil.
But in any case, this is not what the book is about.
1. A lot of shallow work doesn’t need to happen at all. It’s not about offloading it, it’s about stopping altogether, or automating it.
2. When this isn’t possible, structure your workday to preserve uninterrupted blocks of deep work. Do the shallow tasks mindfully in batches, instead of letting them constantly steal your attention throughout the day.
3. Use tools like your calendar to schedule shallow and deep periods of work.
A big part of the book is focused on defining the problems that constant interruptions cause so as to deepen the motivation to actually institute habit changes.
He was also ahead of the curve encouraging people to step away from social media in favor of local interactions.
I personally read the book as a person who is probably the poster child for being a “victim” of “EFT”. I was in a role where my attention was constantly demanded/stolen, and I needed to find strategies to make the best of the situation. At no point was this exploration about offloading things to other people.
It’s a good book, and I highly recommend that people read it. Now more than ever.
It’s also worth noting that his next books were “Digital Minimalism” and “A world without email”. He focuses on the theme of technology and information overload. Issues that I think many people are starting to realize are a real problem in their lives.
Thief is the perfect word. Instead of using their own brains they stole mine. I don't know how someone does this and isn't ashamed of themselves. I'm so glad I don't have to live the life of a helper monkey for the terminally lazy anymore. Magically they managed to survive on their own once I moved out. Go figure.
I say fuck that.
In disability advocacy this is sometimes called spoon theory. This is somewhat offtopic but one of my favorite sci-fi short stories is about this concept.
https://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/stories/carnival-nin...
"Carnival Nine," Caroline Yoachim. (It seems like if you press the button with arrows pointing in cardinal directions, it gets a lot easier to read.)
Anyway... It's also the least one can do when you're with them but that's not necessarily practical.
I could just as easily say that she has committed theft of my attention span because I had to read her ill-considered opinion in order to fairly criticize it. But I won't say that, because it was my choice to do so and I am not a victim.
She seems to be trying to criminalize the ordinary back and forth of social life. We have roles and make use of those roles. We have power and make use of it. For instance, her description of the healthcare situation is all covered, directly or indirectly, in her contract with the healthcare insurance provider; or else it is simply a matter of saying no. Don't do any of that work. Suffer the consequences. It's not theft-- it's the marketplace at work.
How long before someone calls EFT a "microaggression?" Yet another front in the culture wars will open up between people who can't be bothered to assert themselves (and apparently, according to her, women don't assert themselves very much) and those who put the energy in to be assertive.
Imo it is not abuse if there isn't any threat and you simply can say no. If you keep saying yes to everything you coworkers ask from you, what do you expect is going to happen? It is your own responsibility to not be a doormat, that is abusing yourself.
Another equally valid answer: If I care about you, and to the degree I care about you, I willingly modify my behavior to help you live better and more happily, regardless of the how you may deserve or not deserve it.
My wife is one of those people who will work themselves to the point of collapse without complaining. I have to be careful what I ask for because she will assign herself secret tasks to provide it. I don’t lecture her on how she deserves her misery, I remind her that I am the only person around here who swore an oath to help her, and she should ask me for what she wants and expect me to provide it. Then I try to volunteer when I see her working at something I can do. And I try to make myself easy to approach. After 32 years we have a pretty good understanding— but her endurance is worsening over time and so there are new challenges.
> the authors found that when they turned something down, another woman — usually one with less power — was asked
So perhaps partly it comes from a desire to help those weaker than oneself. But there must be more to it than that!
I do tell the team just to ignore those requests and report them to me, yet the people making the bad requests just get more aggressive with their requests, either exaggerating the importance, exaggerating the requestor's "right" to assign the task to my team, etc.
The end result is that we end up closing the means to talk to my team or I am brought in more often to deny the requests, which means I'm spending more time explaining why we aren't doing stupid and wasteful things like giving some sales teams' client free work for a year (can easily cost 6 or 7 figures USD) without getting proper approvals from all the teams required to provide that work. Examples _like_ this happen way too often and it can be weeks worth of emotional meetings explaining why the original requestor needs to deal with the mess they made themselves.
My team is a bunch of IT professionals, and they should be doing IT work, not spending weeks convincing other teams to clean up the messes they made or preventing months of commitments for projects that should never have been approved, and it does _NOT_ feel good or right at all to make them constantly do something that is objectively not their job, and the end result is I end up burning out badly intercepting all of these requests.
The article was very relatable for me and EFT is a term I am going to be using moving forward.
But my personal frustration with scenarios that I've dealt with isn't about specific groups, it's that I imagine myself in like a kids TV show and we're all having to participate while some person in the company learns the value of being honest and taking responsibility for their mistakes.
except unlike a TV show, the stuff isn't resolved in 22 minutes, it takes months, if we ever resolve it, and it creates a lot of stress, frustration, anger, and costs a lot money.
and the person(s) who caused all of this don't learn anything except how to make someone else deal with the fallout of their bad decisions :))))
The main assumption in this article is that "ego depletion" is real. It may not be, see Wikipedia [1]. Psychology is in a big replication crisis, and the ego depletion stuff is all tangled up in it. There's a real possibility that this "theft" only exists by virtue of you believing in it. I'm aware there's a lot of hedging to be done here (experiences of people with ADHD, etc.).
I don't like calling this kind of experience "theft". I much prefer the framing around community service work: boring tasks that are essential for the community's well-being. If someone is not doing their part, they are being an asshole and should be made to (or get kicked out of the community). Emphasizing the communal aspect means you stand up for everybody, not just yourself. It promotes fairness for everybody, not just for yourself. It empowers everybody in the group because you are collectively taking care of this work. And it'll be more effective in practice because the "offender" is getting shamed by everybody, instead of you just whining about your own injustice.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion
Whoa really? I mean it certainly doesn’t work that way for me, but then again I am a stubborn sonovabitch.
I often run into code where it seems the author left a lot of tech debt for the sake of fixing the one task they were given. We have processes in place that are meant to prevent bad code from getting into master, and they do work - you can't just sneak absolute garbage past code review, but still everyone involved is incentivised to only let through the minimum acceptable version of the code that will hold together until bonuses are calculated next quarter. The part where this becomes theft is when next quarter your mess impedes my progress, my velocity goes down, which means my bonus goes down, which means you have literally stolen money from me.
I often think about this when interacting with commercial software that has bugs and rough edges. Am I in pain right now because somebody maximised their performance bonus three years ago? Are these issues the results not of incompetence, but of simple min-maxing? At the end, we all reap what we sow, and I can but hope that my mortgage gets paid before the reaper comes to harvest.
"If you believe that ego depletion is real, you experience it." -- wow, sounds spooky, fascinating if true
"If you experience ego depletion, you believe that it is real." -- yes thank you, Captain Obvious
To me it seems like different people have different capacity for making decisions (that's kinda what ADHD is about). If you can make 10 different decisions a day, but you are required to make 20, you experience "ego depletion". If you can make 30 different decisions a day, but you are required to make 20, you laugh at the idea of "ego depletion", and you can even help to debunk it experimentally by increasing the required decisions to 25 which you can still do easily.
An analogy would be if you talked to people who have broken legs and found out that they are unable to run. So you come with a hypothesis "all people are unable to run". Then someone else tests the hypothesis using both people who have broken legs and people who are okay, and then conclude "actually, the only people unable to run are those who believe that they are unable to run", which is technically true, but misses the part where the people believing that they cannot run are the ones with broken legs.
The picture ego depletion paints is that a) this is caused by making decisions and b) there is nothing to be done about it. I don't think either of those is true. Some decisions might be stressful and they could certainly contribute, but choosing what's for dinner is not in that category. And even if I'm tired and just chilling with some video games, I might be making decisions around builds, where to go next, etc.
> Some decisions might be stressful and they could certainly contribute, but choosing what's for dinner is not in that category.
Ah, depends on whether one has an autistic child that has a tantrum whenever the dinner does not fit their unclearly communicated criteria. Then it can easily be the most stressful task of the day. :D
Generally, I'd like to push back against that "most people sometimes have the sensation" part, because that's basically true for everything. (Depression? Most people sometimes feel sad. Dyslexia? Most people sometimes make a mistake when reading.) That's the point of some mental problems that yes, most people experience it sometimes in an extreme situation, but unfortunately you experience it every day. And the people who experience it only once in a while are happy to provide you advice about what works for them, assuming that it must automatically work the same for you, or you are just lazy and not trying hard enough.
Similarly, spoon theory can still be a helpful frame of reference even though "spoons per day" is not in reality a fixed or discrete quantity.
Go for a short walk through the woods and you've made hundreds of decisions including where to step, what scenery to look at, how to respond to a noise you heard, etc. but that experience is generally considered refreshing.
Meanwhile, your whole day might be dampered if you have just one really important decision looming over you, or which you just made and are unsure about.
If I'm writing a fun personal code project then none of the decisions faze me, but if I'm fixing a bug in some awful code I might need a break.
Diagnosed with ADHD myself. The prescribed stimulants definitely make it easier to deal with annoying decisions.
I noticed mental fatigue around a task is just an illusion I might have picked up from observing others? If I just don't think about it, I can start on a big daunting thing and just keep going, like I always tended to do in the past. If I let others' descriptions of task paralysis or whatever seep into my head then it gets harder.
A person, a group of people, or an explicit social system, has decided to override my goals without replacing my behavior. Without fighting them directly, I am left to execute behaviors that meet their goals. The very context of my executive functioning has been replaced with arbitrary constraints.
Who determines the goals of "everybody"? No one can!
I think your focus is slightly off the mark here. The problem is that people are being given mentally intensive tasks that are treated as mentally trivial, so their cognitive capacity gets drained invisibly. Your brain can absolutely get tired, and when it does, it's very hard to perform cognitive tasks.
It's not ego depletion, it's exhaustion from mental work.