Ask HN: What is your experience with Nano-Hydroxyapatite toothpaste?
I have really bad tooth sensitivity and I recently learned about n-Ha toothpaste being a solid treatment for it (mainly the one Boka sells) The fact that n-Ha is the compound that enamel is made of seems really promising but I don’t know enough about it to know if it’ll work and it’s really hard to trust product reviews. Money is in short supply so I really want to make sure I’m not buying into a fad.
I know you all are not dentists or chemists (I’m assuming anyway), but we’ll have the same teeth, so if you happened to use it for a similar purpose and saw good results, I want to know about your experience.
Thank you all.
152 comments
[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 203 ms ] threadI also have Curodont Protect, but haven't tried it yet.
Curious to hear others' experiences!
It was a stopgap measure; it only slowed the decay, not prevent or reverse it, and we had to switch to a three month checkup cycle to monitor the situation and reapply the silver diamine.
Also, consider that apagard usually doesn't have compounds that make your teeth less sensible like other toothpaste
Also, fyi- you should not wash your mouth after brushing, just spit the extra paste and wash after ~10-20 mins, this is valid for fluoride variations too
Anyway, just buy a tube (start with premio) and see how it goes
I later added a xylitol rinse after brushing, and that seems to be doing even better.
https://www.amazon.com/TOOTH-MOUSSE-X40GM-DENTAL-PRODUCT/dp/...
There's a newer version called Mi paste which is distributed. https://www.gc.dental/america/products/operatory/preventive/...
Anyways, thanks for the link. I’m going to read then probably try this out.
They’re actually called ameloblasts and it seems they do not persist long term (according to our current understanding) “ The cells are part of the reduced enamel epithelium after enamel maturation and then subsequently undergo apoptosis before or after tooth eruption.” from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameloblast?wprov=sfti1#1._Morp...
However anecdotally, I feel like my teeth did recover from a crack without any dental work
I added this to how I was able to have a full hole in my tooth fill back (when poor and in college) in by just keeping it clean, not eating junk food, and swishing spit in my mouth around that tooth religiously for a long time.
Dentist later said, "nope, didn't happen, teeth don't work that way"
This is why I’ve decided to follow an OMAD (One Meal a Day) diet, if I have to dirty up my mouth to survive, I’ll at least do it one time a day.
Take these anecdotes with a grain of salt.
Assuming you're not predisposed to other issues and that you still brush your teeth at least once a day most of the time, that's the speed of decay you should expect and the timelines you're working with. The daily, monthly or even yearly progression is miniscule, making it difficult to observe if it has been slowed or halted, especially in messy anecdotal tests.
The exception being tooth grinding, which can go faster and is easy to measure.
Breakfast is the least natural meal, you should not even be hungry when you wake up, it's unhealthy and should be skipped.
I can wake up and go for a 15 mile hike with no breakfast and not feeling hungry.
The only broad concern I would have is being more prone to accidentally having too much calorie restriction for a prolonged period, where metabolism reduction, potential thyroid issues, and potential nutrient deficiencies can come into play based on highly individual thresholds.
I also suppose some people who fast, especially on very low carb/carnivore diets can sometimes experience the exact opposite of your concern, their blood sugar levels can become constantly elevated, seemingly induced primarily by elevated cortisol, though also seemingly effected by other complicated individual factors like the kinds of stored fatty acids they are burning.
Aside: My wife recently had a kid and the experience taught me how much work gets done to you just because you're being monitored that you may not actually need. You definitely need to know your own body and trust yourself to some degree. At least pregnancy is having a resurgence in "natural" birth.
Is dentistry the same? I could see this as plausible. My assumption at times has been that people's teeth all just fell out immediately before the 1900s lol, which is probably further from the truth
At home, put some on your finger and rub it on the front and back of your teeth, let sit for 3 mins.
Rinse it off after that time, no eating or drinking for at least 30 mins after.
But I gotta call BS on the idea that dentists don’t promote it because it’s against their interests. By that logic, they wouldn’t promote brushing and flossing at all.
Flossing only helps with gingivitis in which case mouth rinses perform better.
In the studies that do show flossing helps against cavities they are about professional flossing and not self flossing.
So dentists continue to push unfounded claims regarding flossing.
The burden is on the flossers to prove the efficacy beyond a secondary link and prove flossing is better in a controlled study. reality doesnt always match what they “feel” it should be.
No, you're missing my point - the secondary link is the study of flossing w.r.t. oral health outcomes. The primary (causal) links are whether flossing removes food particles, and whether food particles cause tooth decay (neither of which seems to be under contention here). By just studying whether flossing improves oral hygiene, you're introducing a huge number of variables that are difficult to control for (flossing skill, other hygiene factors like flossing or "rinsing", dietary choices, self reporting errors, etc etc etc).
(edit: to summarize: A causes B, B causes C, but you don't like saying A causes C because people kind of suck at A, and D, E, and F all also cause C which makes studying the relationship between A and C a challenge)
That’s actually a misrepresentation of the studies. It gets pushed by journalists because contrarian “doctors are wrong” takes are very popular, especially when they tell people what they want to hear.
The issue with flossing is that it’s hard to rigorously study over the duration needed to provide significant results. You also can’t really construct a study where you ask one cohort to not study for a couple decades to see if they do worse, because that has ethical concerns. So we’re left with self-reported flossing activity retrospectives. The problem with those is that people who floss tend to have better hygiene and self-care overall, so now we can’t isolate flossing as the reason for better dental health over a lifetime.
> In the studies that do show flossing helps against cavities they are about professional flossing and not self flossing.
This is an example of what I’m talking about: There are studies out there that show positive benefits of flossing, but if you find someone aggressively searching for reasons to discredit flossing then they’ll always find a reason to dismiss the evidence. When the goal becomes to be contrarian or to disprove something, you can always find a reason to dismiss the studies.
Look at all the wives tales in the past that were semi-effective just because of placebo effects or like you say implementing a health measure (even if it is not directly effective) normally means you have better hygiene anyways.
The problem with flossing is that it is so easy to do wrong which is why only professional flossing has significant effects.
It’s worth people knowing that unless they are flossing on a professional level they aren’t necessarily doing anything to benefit themselves beyond what a mouth rinse would do.
From experience: I used to rinse AND floss, and the floss always came back with a little bit of organic matter which would’ve otherwise decomposed.
So arguing against floss in praise of mouth rinses doesn’t seem like such an obvious ‘just do it’ idea. It’s probably more nuanced than that. And you can always use the wrong rinse or rinse incorrectly.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7375740/
It’s generally accepted if you are flossing then generally you brush more often and more completely and in overall better mental and physical health than if you aren’t flossing because if you take the time to floss you are paying attention to your body.
But controlled studies haven’t found floss to be effective as mouth rinses and brushing.
I can't speak to flossing in general, just as a specific action that helps me feel better. I still get cavities despite brushing twice a day for two minutes each with fluoride toothpaste, waiting at least 20 minutes to brush after eating (especially after sugar or acids), and sleeping with my mouth closed (starting a few years ago after reading Breath by James Nestor- vertical surgical tape on my lips and sleeping on my back, took about 6 months before I could do it without the tape).
I also stopped bruxating by relaxing my jaw every night before bed and, for the first few weeks of this, waking up frequently to make sure my mouth was still closed and my jaw relaxed.
https://www.rd.com/article/how-honest-are-dentists/
I have thin enamel on my teeth, I guess it's some sort of genetic thing. I wouldn't say it's solved the problem, I still have to be careful about eating too much that's high in acid and salt (Honeycrisp apples and potato chips seem to be foods that particularly trigger my sensitivity). And when the dentist does a cleaning there are definitely areas that are still sensitive.
But, with infrequent use of Mi paste, my day-to-day sensitivity has largely gone away. Maybe more frequent use would make it better, dunno.
I decided to switch to a Novamin formula toothpaste about a year ago which is not available in the US.
Looking across Amazon and ebay, it was impossible to determine fake/counterfeit products from real ones and I never made a purchase. Many sellers had obviously incorrect packaging and labeling and you can read reviews detailing the clear counterfeiting going on.
I would worry about the same thing with your "tooth mousse" or, really, any purchase like this.
Research hydroxyapatite toothpaste prevents cavities: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2023.1199...
In kids: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-81112-y
Research the same regenerates tooth enamel: https://jnanobiotechnology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.118...
Another thing which is extremely helpful and I wish I had begun much earlier in life is night mouthguards because grinding your teeth in your sleep even in a subtle way does add up over years and years.
I use one too and usually need replacement about every 18 months. I'm wondering how bad it is to swallow all the plastic. I guess most of it is too big and just moves through the digestive system as is, but I wonder if that grinding also creates particles that are small enough to stay around in the body.
Don’t mess around when it comes to your teeth. Floss, brush twice a day, drop bad habits like smoking and excessive soda drinking, and if you grind your teeth, get the damned mouth guard. It only gets more painful and expensive to fix (if even possible) if you ignore it.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S199179021...
https://www.jmchemsci.com/article_160981_041959f44ef51db7464...
Zinc was big for my gums and to keep my immune system healthy enough to fight oral bacteria.
Biorepair seems to have split into an Italian version and a German version with less active ingredients called Bioniq. The Italian versions seems to add xylitol.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=biorepair&i=hpc&crid=3BEZX0VR8DUD...
I’ve been using this toothpaste for years and it completely cured my tooth sensitivity issues. I buy it online from the Polish equivalent of Amazon. Looking at people’s reviews, the overwhelming majority are positive, but there are also some negative ones, so it’s definitely not a miracle product.
About 5 normal Vitamin D pills every few days so.
I was trying to treat something else out of desperation and noticed my tooth sensitivity more or less vanished.
Which makes sense when considering their role.
But as always, n=1.
What brand of K2 and Vitamin D did you use?
I landed on this one out of all the N-Ha brands because it also has flouride. Also, it doesn't have SLS, which I feel good about.
I used to need Sensodyne to manage tooth sensitivity. I would go out of my way to buy Canadian or UK Sensodyne with Novamin, since the Novamin formulations aren't sold in the U.S. However, Jen's has eliminated the tooth sensitivity without needing a numbing agent like Sensodyne, which was surprising to me.
I've stuck with Jen's even though it's more expensive. I can't speak to whether it's strengthened my enamel appreciably, but my teeth feel much better.
Fwiw, the jury is still out regarding SLS.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10506142/
For anyone reading this suffering the same fate, benzocaine, which is commonly sold near the toothpastes, is an absolute lifesaver when you have a canker sore. It's sold under the name "Kanka" but any store brand alternatives should work just as well.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioglass_45S5
I switched to Apagard about 8 months ago. My hygienist seemed happy about it. I like the fact that it's not overwhelmingly minty like most American toothpastes and doesn't foam up too much. I think if I manage to avoid needing new fillings or a redo for 6-7 years (about the frequency at which I need one) I would consider it a good switch.
Uneducated Speculation: My theory is that the gums can regenerate and regain attachment loss but only in the right conditions -> in practice that would mean that they are not inflamed, and clean underneath the gum line (you can do that by flossing and getting a deep cleaning at a dentist if you need one), as well as doing your best to eliminate harmful bacteria that turn into calculus, and having a healthy diet.
The trickiest part is probably selectively eliminating the bad bacteria while retaining the good ones The mouth is full of both and mouthwashes like Listarine, or any Alcohol based ones are sledgehammers. Some washes are too harsh on the tissue itself too which I imagine impairs healing of any kind.
Might also be worth looking into all the substrates required for bone and connective tissue building, apart from the obvious (calcium, magnesium), e.g. silica, iron and copper.
Now what I do is more like sweeping; I use a regular toothbrush, and pull it over my teeth and gums at an angle to increase the sweeping area. This cleans much more of my month, so it’s less acidic, and this just feels better than what I was doing before. I also floss to break up biofilms in the gumline. Gums much happier.
Neither a toothbrush nor floss is going to clear those areas effectively, and I noticed an immediate improvement in my gum inflammation levels when I started using them.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30915550/
But really, get back into the habit of brushing your teeth twice daily. It's one investment that pays of hugely in avoided trouble and costs.
Before this sensitivity, someone asked if I whitened my teeth because they were whiter. Using an electric toothbrush changed the color of my teeth for the better.
A Water-Pik helps the gums rejuvenate as does flossing.
Someone also mentioned a water pik is great for tonsililiths too.
[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27891311/#:~:text=The%20stud....
- preregistration (it helps to counter fishing-for-signal bias, ie. maybe there were 1000 kids, and they only picked this 50 young girls, because this is where there's a big positive effect; also statistical significance levels, how much "sigma" is needed to say that the null hypothesis can be rejected)
- control group (here there's a nice direct comparison group, but there's no no-treatment group)
- blinding (did the kids know which one they were using? of course, but let's say it's not really relevant here, and they even mention that "no concealment was possible")
- power analysis (if we want to demonstrate a small effect we need a large sample size, power analysis can tell us was the experiment even capable of producing significant results or not, because it was underpowered? this requires an estimation of the effect size from the hypothesis) - basics causal inference sanity checks (are they making claims/conclusions that are actually supported by the data? is the experiment even capable of showing any kind of causal direction? due to the lack of no-treatment group we don't really know if the decrease in the numbers is due to weather or the treatments, so in this regard if we want to be very pedantic, it's a bit of a stretch to say that the treatments caused the decrease, but it's true that there was a significant decrease)
- stats check (they are using "Wilcoxon matched pairs signed ranks test" ... which is good for exactly this kind of "is there an effect at all" hypothesis testing (and arguably better than a t-test, because this is ranked data, not pulled from some nice normal distributions), basically it says that how likely it is that the day 0 and day 30 numbers are "really different", and we see that they got p-values smaller than 0.001, which indicates that it's very unlikely that they are from the same distribution; and then there's also a test for comparing the groups, but I haven't checked that)
Also, we can look at the full-text to see the numbers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5109859/
it's interesting that there's a typo in deviation in Table 1, but not in the others, but there's also one in Whitney in Table 6 :)
all in all seems okay, though I think a nice chart would have been good with error bars and effect sizes (because then you can see that the treatment arms leave the null hypothesis region, and by how much, like with this one https://cdn.the-scientist.com/assets/articleNo/69229/iImg/43... )
of course, it's just one study ... https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/12/beware-the-man-of-one-...