The thing is, while there's a lot of crap EVs at inflated prices that nobody wants to buy, good EVs are back ordered. Chevy dealers do everything they can to avoid selling Bolts but they're still months away from having stock.
So what we are really seeing here is an industry that desperately wants customers not to want certain things, such as affordable ultra low maintenance cheap to operate EVs. But customers want these things and will search them out.
Sounds like a recipe for us to lose our auto industry to China. The instant some upstart puts a $20k simple super reliable EV on the market it’s over, and we will deserve it.
Of course some subset will keep buying the biggest F-9000 Super Chungus they can find while complaining about the price of gas, so maybe that will keep legacy auto alive.
Yeah you see that a lot when all of a sudden every single one in the US market yanks out every affordable option all at the same time or "mysteriously" makes them impossible to buy but somehow that isn't collusion or anything. Then these same lying fuckers in suits declare americans "don't want" those options they conspired to make as difficult as possible to get in the first place.
You saw the same thing with microcars or anything especially affordable the past couple years. They only want to sell giant gas guzzling insanely expensive XXL crap and are doing their best to keep affordable shit off the market meanwhile it all sells just fine everywhere else. It's obvious how rigged the whole thing is same with real estate and "automatic price adjustments" that coincidentally biases things in favor of landlords, same for other software that biases things in favor of other colluding fucks like the auto industry so they merely "coincidentally" conspire. It's all total bullshit.
What pisses me off is the fact people somehow think an industry agreeing to use algorithms that only go in their favor and most of all if they all use those algorithms together doesn't count as collusion.
BYD is interesting. I've not seen them advertising as much as other brands. Just spotted one being shown in a shopping centre about a year ago, then they start popping up all over the place. I expect to see a huge number of them soon - they're permanently out of stock the whole time as far as I can tell. They provide the non-luxury thing that most people want/can afford and will make a killing while other manufacturers fumble around.
BYD and ORA (Great Wall) are both operating in Ireland. I've sat in them, not driven, but they seem fairly well-put-together on the surface. The little ORA Funky Cat city car is adorable, though not exactly cheap as chips at €32000 for the entry-level model. After Mozilla's damning recent analysis of the major car brands' user privacy [1], however, I'd be very curious to know what data the Chinese EVs are sending back, and to whom.
Those cheapest EVs are tiny hatchbacks that really aren't popular here, and they use batteries that charge much slower. The US market has an expectation of bigger is better, and even "economy" cars have features on them you'd only find on luxury cars not that long ago. Pushing back against that culture is a challenge.
The main point is not the price though, it's the infrastructure and the fast obsolescence of batteries. There are no batteries currently that will last the life of a car, so what do you do when they quit ? Replace them, for what price ?
I might get an EV in 10 years or so, when there is a clear vision for infrastructure and battery technology.
I think it is price. Here I see cars with batteries that last well enough for 10+ years, and I'm confident that the price will drop over time if I keep one long enough to actually want to replace it. Along with all the other parts that wear out. Over here I think new car buyers won't tend to drive their cars into the ground, with cars on the road after 20 years generally having been purchased second hand. I don't know how the second hand market or resale value of EVs will look.
In Australia, the vast majority of EV models on the market are luxury vehicles. You can count on one hand the number of vehicles in the 'midrange' price point (~$AUD 50k is my yardstick), and absolutely nothing anyone considers cheap. Budget conscious purchasers get to choose between BYD, GWM and MG. So mostly manufactured in China, with Thailand, India and UK featuring. It seems most manufacturers can't or won't get affordable vehicles on the market, and discovering that there is only so much luxury vehicle market to go around.
> Chevy dealers do everything they can to avoid selling Bolts but they're still months away from having stock.
Why should they sell a Bolt if they don't have it? When you sell the car before it's made, you have to do a lot of customer handholding and the customer holds the dealer responsible when the car doesn't arrive on time. Much better to sell them something that's already on the lot, or at least on a truck on the way.
It's almost as if, EVs are costly/cash negative to manufacture, and customers want cars that inflict more loss to the manufacturer. Such deals are of course great to buyers.
They don’t want to say things like “Chinese automakers are eating our lunch” or “we’ll never catch up to Tesla.”
The most bullish EV automakers should have seen Tesla’s charging network strategy 10 years ago and executed on something similar. Where are the Ford and GM-branded charging stations?
The major automakers are half assing their EV strategy to prove a point that their legacy business model is better. The EV execs in the companies are being raked over the coals right now with the ICE execs crowing their career doom. Prices are too high, the charging infrastructure only exists for Tesla, etc etc. These were intentional outcomes orchestrated by the ICE executives to ensure they keep rising for the remaining years of their career. Some probably really believe fire and dinosaur juice Rube Goldberg machines are the future rather than fundamental forces like the electroweak force.
Their time is limited, and they will bring down the house with them. As you say, BYD, GW, and MG will eat them for lunch. I’ve been in their cars and they are pretty good, and have a lot of transferred tech from Tesla embedded at near zero R&D costs. With Tesla open sourcing their adapter design and getting federal subsidies to expand charger networks the Chinese makers just need to use the Tesla adapter and their infrastructure challenges are done.
Uh ive driven over 300k miles in evs in the last 10 years. Goodbye gas stations, what are those. Driven many 300+ mile trips, several cross country. Whats not working?? Whenever i see articles like this i just think the writers are ev haters or far right fanatics who have never tried an ev before. Ev's are cheaper than gas cars now, even their msrp and we're not even talking about gas savings yet. Farrrrr cheaper to drive an ev.
61% of EVs in the US are Teslas but everyone here hates Elon so head in the sand.
Legacy auto EVs are garbage. They ignored Tesla for almost 15 years, and then once Tesla was Goliath, surprise pikachu. The time to build battery factories was when Tesla was building battery factories circa 2014-2015. The fact that Tesla predicted selling 500k EVs a year by 2020 was laughed at, and now they are approaching 2.3M/year total capacity of EVs alone (while still building 40GWh/year of stationary storage).
I rented a Model Y for a weekend, now that is garbage.
I went to a showroom I looked at Teslas. I could not find a single car with even panels gaps. The wipers don't work. The car doesn't have USS anymore and Tesla vision sucks. I could go on and on and on. I seriously considered one but just too many shortcomings.
For the price of Model Y, I can buy a Lexus ES300h(car is QC and build perfection) and drive that car for the next 15 years with oil changes once a year.
I’m going to blow your mind right now. They sell pre-dented and pre-scratched cars! Have you ever heard of the used car market? And the prices reflect that!
Why would anyone pay new car prices for a damaged car? It has lower resale value.
Except there's massive difference between a car with an imperfect appearance, and once that's been driven before and e.g. no longer covered by warranty.
> Why would anyone pay new car prices for a damaged car?
A) I didn't say it had to be the same price. Sell the car with a bumper blemish and give people a discount to account for the fact that you didn't have to reject parts.
B) People might buy it for the same reason that others gent bent out of shape about panel gaps; personal differences in what they value.
> Why does everyone suddenly care about panel gaps?
There's absolutely nothing sudden about people caring about panel gaps on new vehicles.
Cockeyed panel gaps are a tell-tale of a used/bodged vehicle, this has been the case my entire life. It's the last thing you want to see on what's supposedly a new vehicle, and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
It just illustrates what priorities Tesla sets. They are expensive cars yet their quality is low both in and outside. For example the interior lining of the doors is easily damaged, just moving a cardboard box against it rips it. This doesn't happen in my 11 year old BMW and it isn't even a top of the line model, just a bog standard 116d.
Or when talking about BMW, nobody know but they have some 3-layered paint that is much harder to scratch than typical paint of say VW or french cars. People like to bash premium cars but its exactly getting as much as you pay for
Same. The Model Y was completely uninspiring. I liked my old Chevy Bolt better.
It didn't help that the experience of renting from Hertz was terrible, but renting the Y seemed to confirm every terrible Tesla rumor and then some. It didn't drive well, the range was surprisingly bad(abused battery maybe?), the controls were confusing and distracting, and hell, even the acoustics of the interior were terrible(glass roof is dumb).
Everything I've seen on Tesla's controls make me want to run away. Unfortunately, most other auto manufacturers are copying many of these bad ideas because they're trying to cargo cult tesla's success so I probably in for a bad time when I need a new car regardless.
Tesla just steeply discounted the hell out of their cars. The minimum discount I can recall was $10k. Several cars were dropped by over $30k. They basically just fucked the resale value of all their existing customers. This was done out of desperation. EV demand fell off a cliff after the pandemic.
Good! This increases the pool of potential buyers while putting more distress on legacy auto. Tesla can afford the margin compression. If they are less profitable, that’s fine, replacing combustion units is most important to pull forward the combustion supply chain death spiral.
Tesla does not owe current customers firm resale value.
> (yes, yes, I agree Elon is a monster, but he has also been effective)
How is the man that has actually made a huge difference in battery-powered cars and actually made them seem like a viable alternative to gas a 'monster'. And yet the dozens of environmentalist activists who have done nothing but make a fuss and complain seen as the good guys. This sort of praise of mediocrity and ineffectiveness is the root cause of so many issues today.
Musk has been extremely effective. Maybe that means there is something about his thinking and methods of action that we should seek to replicate instead of criticize.
Elon has many issues but a characterizing him as a “monster”? Sounds like an affirmation of someone whose heart isn’t really in what they are saying but they have to to toe the party line.
He’s a sorta autistic dude who sometimes talks to the public in a k-hole instead of going through a spokesperson like his peers.
As far as the cars go, I think most Americans can see that spending an extra $10k on an EV Chevy isn’t gonna keep the Saudis from draining Ghawar Field. I wonder how cheap BYD and VinFast can get their imports.
Americans can’t really point to other country’s emissions as an excuse though. They have by far the largest emissions per capita. And car ownership (where families frequently own multiple cars!) is a non-trivial portion of that. Individuals are admittedly not the best placed to fix this.
It’s shorthand for “low empathy power hungry industrialist who is willing to destroy anyone who sleights him in the most minimal of ways, while dishing out abuse liberally to anyone who crosses his path” but that’s a mouthful. The dynamics are public in both books and online media covering him; a fresh, recent example is Grimes tweeting at his recent biographer “Tell Elon I want to see my kid.” Partners, workers, anyone really who Elon feels he has power over gets the brunt of his dysfunctional emotional configuration. Could not care less about his politics, it is about how he treats other humans.
> Indeed, reports and Grimes’ since-deleted social media posts indicate that the situation has become rather ugly, with allegations that Musk is being a controlling bully. In posts last month on Musk’s X platform, Grimes alleged that he wasn’t allowing her to see one of their children and threatened to take him to court unless he let her see her son or responded to her lawyer. She said the situation was “utterly ripping my family apart.”
I’ll ask one of the folks tracking Elon facts publicly to aggregate all of the citations on the topic, so the next time I say “monster” a simple URL citation will do. As a high empathy human, I fully stand behind my characterization based on all available public evidence. Hurt people hurt people I suppose.
I love mine, but both mine and my wife's are probably $15k pricier than an equivalent ICE option. We'll likely not break even on gas savings during the period of our ownership. People like she and I, and I suspect you, are already bought in. Others however, especially those who aren't really swayed by the saved emissions, have to do the cost/benefit analysis for themselves.
Yeah, if there hadn't been unlimited supercharging it wouldn't have made as much sense, but I figure I'd have used 500gal a year (15km/30mpg). That's about $2500/yr so pay off time is about 6-8 years. If you're paying 20c/kWh then it's well over 10 years.
However, the other experience I've seen is the near lack of required paid maintenance. That could easily come out to another $10k over 8-10yr, which would shorten the payoff. Of course that would hurt the dealers for the major Autos, and drive up their pricing.
Yes, the maintenance is cheaper, but some automakers include maintenance for a period of time (I know the Toyotas I've owned included 2 years 24000 miles). I will say that $10k over 10 years seems expensive, though maintenance does tend to rise in time. Still, I'm guessing the cost is closer to $5k (assuming non-luxury brands)
I really liked my EV, but I had subsidized charging at work. We only have one ICE car now. Every so often I consider upgrading to an EV or hybrid, but why? I'd be spending quite a lot to save very little. Now, I'll admit, getting gas at someplace like Costco can be a pain, but I just can't justify an EV.
Also, my wife hated the EV. Sure, it was a Bolt so it wasn't that comfy, but she hated having to think about charging. She's fine dealing with gas. That right there kills it for us.
You’re only “saving” with an ICE because CO2 is not appropriately priced. And there are other reasons to ditch petrol, like, what about our children future? Limiting the discussion to price is a limited way of thinking.
No thanks. Those are problems for the world's rich to worry about. I have a budget and dependents to take care of. I'm not taking away from my dependents to change the time the earth becomes unlivable by 15 seconds.
It’s wild to me that people with kids don’t care about how the planet will be for their children and grandchildren. I don’t even have kids of my own and I’m willing to alter my lifestyle to give future generations a better shot at having the same access to resources I have.
I have five kids and I am not in the slightest worried about the planet. It will be here and we will adapt if needed. I am much more worried about the elites stamping out our God given freedom and subjugating us to be told what to do by "experts" because we are just ignorant and don't know what's best for ourselves. No thank you.
Money is a huge motivator. People will absolutely change their behavior to save money. It's also largely politically agnostic. Unless you're very wealthy, money impacts your life no matter how you feel about climate change or the environment.
My wife shares similar environmental concerns with me, so I haven't had that issue, but I realize others don't have those same values. Of course, we also bought an EV that fits the style of car she's always had (small SUV - we got her an ID.4)
As for the fueling up, there's a huge gulf between those who own a home and those who don't in terms of EV experience - when you have a charger in your garage, you wake up every day with a "full tank".
If you drive 30k miles a year, yes. I drive 4k miles a year with a car that I bought second-hand 10 years ago for $8,000. EVs are not cheaper for that use case yet.
I don't think an EV could work for me personally, as there's almost no public charging stations here. And I can't park at home. So I'd have to go somewhere just for charging and hang around while it's doing it.
In fact I don't have a car at all. But if I got one it wouldn't be an EV until nearly every parking space has a charger so I can combine a trip with a charge.
But really I'm so happy I don't have a car anymore. There's so many drawbacks.
- Huge cost and high depreciation
- Maintenance costs and time sink
- Tyre swap in winter
- insurance and worry about losing no claim bonus
- Road tax and chance of fines if you miss a speed sign
- Finding parking and paying for that
- Worry about break-in, damage and theft
- Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
- Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport)
I don't really see how all these drawbacks compensate for slightly more easily getting from A to B. Public transport here is amazing and costs 20€ unlimited per month. If I'm in a hurry a taxi will cost a tenner or so. And as I work mostly from home most of trips involve going out and drinking so I wouldn't be able to drive anyway :P
And I see more and more of my friends going car free too. I think that's more of a reason for dropping car sales now.
-sky-high petrol/diesel prices, but I can charge from solar
-cheap road tax for EVs
-I leave the farm once every 1-2 weeks and generally only go about 15km away on those journeys, so trickle-charging and moderate range would not be an impediment to my mobility
Unfortunately a farming income does not translate to a new Tesla, or even a used Kia EV. Guess I should have got one before I burned out and quit tech.
I'd add to that, at least for my farm, having a convenient source of electricity sitting in the field for when things break (to power tools, etc.) would be fantastic.
But you are spot on. The dollars and cents just don't make sense.
The true object of my lust is one of these electric tractors, which can also serve as a mobile power bank, but I might have to resort to converting something instead: https://solectrac.com/
Yeah YMMV of course. I live in an old city center so it's a totally different story than living on a farm. No solar power here either (I share a tiny roof with around 15 other apartments).
Fair point, local laws and climate realities may require this.
> insurance and worry about losing no claim bonus
Low insurance; no worry if you get a few more scratches on top of existing scratches.
> Road tax and chance of fines if you miss a speed sign
There are apps for that
> Finding parking and paying for that
There are apps for that
> Worry about break-in, damage and theft
Comes pre-damaged.
> Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
Sure, but not much you can do on the train either, standing squeezed like a sardine in a can, with network connectivity only above ground or at stations.
> Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport)
I think there have been only 2 times in the past few years when I felt this was an inconvenience.
>>Road tax and chance of fines if >>you miss a speed sign
>There are apps for that
>> Finding parking and paying for that
>There are apps for that
Ahh the "you're holding it wrong" everyone with a ticket or parking fees is a sucker!
>> Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
>Sure, but not much you can do on the train either, standing squeezed like a sardine in a can, with network connectivity only above ground or at stations.
I don't even have words, so everyone else that can't manage to avoid local laws deftly is a sucker who didn't use the right app but you can't find offline video, ebooks , wikipédia , etc...at some point you just gotta be content you're making a choice for your preference so let people have theirs. I definitely drove your beat up Toyota/Saturn/Honda/Mazda for 16 years and you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that lifestyle willingly.
> everyone else that can't manage to avoid local laws deftly is a sucker who didn't use the right app but you can't find offline video, ebooks , wikipédia , etc
I mean, to each their own, but I can't remember the last time I got a speeding fine, and I listen to ebooks in the car every trip.
I dunno, I had an old beat up Honda (great car) and it was still a pain. Definitely more maintenance than an oil change once a year (tyres, brakes, bulbs, etc. etc.)
Well yes that's what I do if I have the choice. My most expensive car ever cost me 2200 euro (which was a pretty nice full-option 10-year-old Volvo - big cars are super unpopular here because of the high road tax).
But the problem with those these days is that you're banned from city centers then.
But still I feel much freeer not having the worry and cost of it. And I like walking a lot and I hate making any plans so I often go off on a trip to whatever and take the train back from wherever I end up. But yes YMMV!
> Sure, but not much you can do on the train either, standing squeezed like a sardine in a can, with network connectivity only above ground or at stations.
A surprising number of underground systems have phone signal these days. I was recently surprised, visiting London, to notice that my phone was mostly working on the tube; the tube is, of course, the oldest and clunkiest of all underground systems, so if they can do it...
In the USA, it is allowed and even common for people without at home parking to own cars and park them on the street.
In China, it technically isn’t allowed (like Japan you have to have proof of parking spot before you can buy a car), but the rule is easily gamed and lots of people park on the street (or in many cases, the right lane of a two lane one way road without street parking, they only get ticketed once a year so it’s ok - see “wild parking”). It’s a bit crazy, maybe other cities aren’t as bad as Beijing.
I _really_ love the Japanese model of having to prove you can park your car out of the way combined with the enforced Kei car model. It lets them keep cities compact and mostly walkable.
Well I could of course park elsewhere. Like seanmcdirmid said, I could park on the street though in this area (and residents qualify for permits. But it's a nightmare to find a spot. And one with charging is simply impossible.
I could also rent a spot somewhere. But this becomes a special issue with EVs, because I regularly would have to go and drive it somewhere to charge it. Also those rented spaces are crazy expensive.
I don't have parking, but I could get a permit to park on the road I live on for, I think, about 100 eur a year (if you don't live there it's 4eur/hour). In less central areas, on-street parking is often completely uncontrolled. This is a pretty common setup in many places.
I spent the first 10 years of my working life without a car. Then bought one just to see what was going to happen. Here are some niceties of car ownership:
- No need to plan around transportation times.
- Staying at the party after the last subway: the crowd changes a lot.
- Intimate conversation with friends/partner, while listening to music of your choice.
- Dressing up without worrying about others staring. It applies to your passengers too! You will see your friends really thankful for your ride, wearing suits/dresses/high heels!
- Hability to change destination on the go.
- Having a strong excuse not to drink, then partying till 6am, waking up without a hangover and going straight to the gym.
The crowd at a party changes a lot after the last metro because everyone left it is the sort of person to take the first metro in the morning, not because they have cars.
The dressing up is an interesting one. I always felt uncomfortable wearing formalwear on the subway in rougher areas at night. No one bothered me though ( because of clothes, I got the usual aggressive riders other times).
Not here really. I go to pretty kinky parties and I often find myself on the metro with other partygoers. One time pretty recently there was fellow partygoer (unknown to me but clearly from the same party) who even had her boobs out in the metro (at 4am) and no comments or even weird looks were made. It made me happy seeing the tolerance and diversity (and, admittedly, the boobs too ;) ). Nobody was being weird or trying to sneak a photo or anything.
Though strangely enough a friend of mine was told off by security for taking off her heels while sitting down (they hurt a bit) but at the same time ignoring the boobs girl altogether lol.
Yes, Barcelona (not a capital though it is the capital of the state of Catalonia).
Berlin is even (way) crazier by the way. Though I'm not sure how they would deal with this in public there, Germans can be a bit more formal in that sense :)
I'm currently running an errand and I took an Uber here because it's absolutely pouring at the moment and I don't need this sort of excitement in my life.
Except for the rush hour. When I did ~25km commute one way I had to think when I should leave with the car. With bicycle, time was constant, so I was free to choose when I could leave.
> - Staying at the party after the last subway: the crowd changes a lot.
> - Having a strong excuse not to drink
Car is good excuse not to drink - I have used that excuse myself. But there are other ways - you do not need car for this. It does not work both ways: if you want to drink, with car you can not.
These two really depend on the system and frequency; non-issue for high-frequency underground systems, say. There'll be another one along in 3 minutes.
> Staying at the party after the last subway: the crowd changes a lot.
This depends a lot on the system as well. In Dublin, traditionally, we only had night buses on weekends, they were infrequent, and they used weird Frankenstein routes (they'd take like five normal routes, and make a route that passed _all the stops of all five_) so they took hours. In the last few years, a bunch of normal routes have started going 24 hours; makes things a lot easier. I was recently out inconveniently far from home, at 4 in the morning, resigning myself to an hour walk home, or else trying to somehow get a taxi, when I noticed that there was a bus coming in ten minutes at the stop outside the bar, which would bring me to five minutes walk from home.
I shopped for an EV but nobody was selling them at the time and I ended up moving to Oregon so having a truck was a pretty smart buy. I've used it countless times at this point while fixing up and building on my property.
I do eventually plan to get some dinky EV at some point for scooting around town. The way I solved the problem you mentioned about charge locations is to install a 240V.
imo, electric vehicles are still a luxury even at lower price points unless you live a very specific lifestyle.
No it doesn't but I stopped owning a car for those reasons. I used to live somewhere where I did need one and I absolutely hated driving and all those issues around car ownership.
> Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport)
Oh yes, when you are used to that freedom, always having to return to the car feels like a ball and chain. People who are not used to it clearly don't feel that way at all. An impressive example of how perspective changes perception.
The amount of anti-EV FUD being pushed right now is insane. There must be some money behind all of these, there’s no way that all these media companies would suddenly just start writing them.
I think part of it may be a nationalism thing. People don't like to mention it, but EVs are doing insanely, incredible well in China, and China is increasing the amount of car exports it does as a result by huge amounts (seriously, Chinese car exports five years ago to today is an absolutely incredible accomplishment, check out the graphs sometime). I believe currently in China 30% of all new car sales are EVs, and it's not showing any signs of slowing down. Pretty soon, that should mean petrol cars in China enter a death spiral where it's unprofitable to keep service stations operational and filled with expensive underground fuel storage because demand for fuel is falling so filling up gets harder and prices get higher, then because filling up is harder and prices are higher EVs become even more attractive, rinse and repeat. They are well on track to that, while here in the Anglosphere we're stuck at "only" around 8% of new car sales (still very impressive compared to where it was five years ago).
Basically, China is doing a better job than us, therefore the job isn't worth doing anyway and frankly who even cares about competing? I'm going home, and I'm taking the ball, and you can forget about my birthday party too.
It's definitely something coming from the top down. I'll watch Peter Zeihan's Youtube because he tends to make arguments that the incumbent elites want to hear, and he did an anti-EV one yesterday in which he argued that the logistics were impossible and EVs could not be green.
But the only worthwhile analysis is basically "too bad, disruption is happening". Total car/truck sales went into a steep dive in 2020, made a marginal recovery the next year, and then declined again in 2022. The back-to-office coercion only had partial success - commercial real estate is still sinking in many markets. Meanwhile, e-bike sales got red-hot and everyone suddenly discovered Youtube urbanism. California governor Gavin Newsom made a trip to visit BYD recently, and their buses are being trialed in a few cities. You can even pin a lot of the global instability on energy changes - Russia was a big oil/gas exporter, and they seem to have driven everyone away from them at this point.
Can we skip to the part where they realize the errors in their ways and begin to honestly put effort into the solution? All this hemming and hawing and pouting is just delaying the inevitable.
This is the real answer. Many industries have a huge inertia from built-up skill in the labour force and industry R&D, and built capital. In all of these areas, China was far behind the West for cars. That was until EVs came along and completely eliminated the engine and exhaust management, which was by far the most complicated part of the car in terms of expertise. To make it even better, it all got replaced by electronics, which is something that China is great at and a lot of traditional car countries aren't great at. The combination meant that even though China didn't have a great industry around forming body panels to an effective precision, even though they didn't have the best engineers that understand suspension systems or ultra-reliable control systems, they could compete with the big car countries on something much closer to an equal footing. And when the Chinese get to compete on an equal footing in the modern era, they win more often than they don't.
Not sure about that, it's certainly newer but the grids in America aren't in any way bad enough that they're affecting whether or not people buy EVs or manufacturers make them.
I mean the oil price is 50% more expensive in China, but in China the electricity is 50% cheaper than US. So if you live in China, driving an EV means 5%~10% of the cost of ICE cars.
It's not a conspiracy, although obviously Bloomberg has got a bone to pick with EVs right now. It's just not at all contradictory with the fact that EVs are doing fantastic in China right now. Graveyards of discarded vehicles is a consequence of rideshare fleets of undesirable vehicles disbanding, which is a consequence of relatively minor errors in Chinese industrial policy being present in their EV subsidies, then being removed when China stripped out those heavy subsidies to stop graft four years ago. The article even explains all of this.
The important part is that while the subsidies introduced significant graft and the creation of some vehicles which were below market standard to the point that consumers wouldn't buy them, those subsidies also worked to build the factories, train the people, and demonstrate the demand which have then ensured that ever since China axed those subsidies four years ago, EV sales have still been growing extremely fast, every single year. Those subsidies were good policy, and so was gutting them to reduce corruption once EVs had enough momentum to not be significantly helped by them anymore. We should learn from that good policy and try to compete, rather than just giving up and going home.
For most people, I suspect a plugin hybrid will be the right solution/tradeoff until the technology evolves, or charging infrastructure becomes more prevalent. Being able to do most of your local / day to day driving on electric, but still having access to an ICE and gas refueling for longer range trips, seems like a winning combination for now.
If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips.
> For most people, I suspect a plugin hybrid will be the right solution/tradeoff until the technology evolves, or charging infrastructure becomes more prevalent.
Mild hybrid is winning out.
> If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips.
Completely agree. The best way to solve this issue is to fund or otherwise incentivize alternatives that get cars off of the road entirely.
The answer isn't an EV car, although these will help. It's reliable EV light rail/passenger trains.
EVs are expensive imo and risky for someone like me.
I can replace a transmission or engine on my ford focus for $500, the car is at 140k miles with basic maintenance.
There is no way around battery replacement out of warranty and Tesla has recently raised their battery prices. I happen to keep my cars for 10+ years because its a depreciating asset.
Batteries tend to be at 80%+ capacity after 10+ years. You still see EV1s on the road with original batteries - and those batteries are ancient tech compared to modern batteries. The lack of moving parts means EVs rarely need service of any kind. There are no fluids, no pneumatic system, no gearing, or other Rube Goldberg machine things in it. It’s just copper and magnets, powered by maxwells equations rather than dinosaur juice and fire.
The issue with EVs is charging infrastructure. However that will continue to improve over the next 10 years. As will the economics - there’s no reason for an EV to cost so much. They’re just premium priced because everyone wants a Tesla margin, and they’re used to demanding high prices for their complex mechanical gear and belts beasts because that complexity of machine really costs that much. BYD is proving tho you can deliver a quality $10k EV at much lower costs than we see coming from the major car makers.
I’d note your $500 replacement is if you do it yourself with a scrap engine. You can’t take it to the dealer or a shop and get a major change to the car done. So while that may be your economics, it’s not a very widely shared option.
I have read a few of your comments and you make great points, but you might want to stop using pejorative language if you want to be effective in communicating your ideas. 'Rube goldberg machines' can be replaced by parts with lots of wearable components. Dinosaur juice can be replaced with 'gasoline'
maybe it can, but why should?
Especially if you like "cars s such", you would strongly have felt the Rube-Goldbergization yourself in the last 25 years or so; while "then" everyone could do certain routine maintenance tasks themselves, "now" more likely than not the electronic controls will lock "your" car down as soon as you get your hand within an inch of the bonnet or so. Your car today is DMCA-protected against you, really...
Nevermind "gasoline" - from the US carmaker lobby view, clearly diesel is the dinosaur juice because the European makers promoted it and lied about it (while in Germany petrol is the dinosaur juice as diesel is cheaper with more mileage). Definitely a dinosaur fight if you ask me.
The lack of a charger network is lamentable but let's not forget that Benz' first motor car had to be refilled at pharmacies; the fuel station network didn't come to exist overnight either.
Transitions that happen with ourselves "feeling overridden" always leave us annoyed and perky. That's no different whether authorities put that shiney new motorway right through your neighbourhood or your local fuel station closes - or your new company car is electric because that's what fleet management went for to tick the green box. We're already in the middle of a big shift here. whether one of us individually embraces our resists it won't stop it from happening. The choice of the dinosaur fate is everyone's own by and large.
Not sure, but from what I read the usual suspects are import duties to protected what's left of the UK automobile industry, the current government rolling back EV rebates/discounts, and additional costs importing cars into the UK after leaving the EU.
But it would be good to hear from someone with actual insight.
> Batteries tend to be at 80%+ capacity after 10+ years
do they use some kind of special battery tech? because that's not the common experience with battery operated devices, every phone I have ever owned had half battery life after one year. Same for laptops. Even the super efficient macbook air m1 I have now lasts half what it did two years ago.
I have never seen a battery last ten years, let alone do it at 80% capacity.
Better battery management, more careful charging patterns and leveling, better temperature management. You can do a lot more with a big pack of batteries in a car than the few cells in your phone or laptop.
• Car batteries are thermally managed much better than your laptop or especially your phone, which helps longevity
• Much larger capacity means a similar amount of battery cycles lasts a long time. 1000 cycles is common for lithium ion, which in a 300 mile range car means 300,000 miles
I'm not an expert on batteries, but iphone batteries are specifically known to be poorly rated (iirc 500 cycles till 80%). iPads & macs are I think 1000 cycles. Car batteries are likely much higher. The interesting thing is by reducing the charging window (aka charging only between 30-70% for eg) you can greatly boost the cycles the battery will last.
> I can replace a transmission or engine on my ford focus for $50
That's impressive. I just put a new clutch in my 2004 Toyota Matrix. The clutch, flyweel and pressure plate were $450 just in parts from Rockauto, the cheapest of the cheap.
Oh well, we tried, better stock up on air while it's still clean! This message brought to you by Exxon air. Now with added detergent, to keep your lungs clean.
(1) legacy car manufacturers don't know how to make cars. They forgot how to make cars decades ago. All components are manufactured by someone else, they slap their label on it. If you don't know how to make cars, it is nearly impossible to make new kind of cars.
(2) If you don't know how to do something, you can spend some money and learn. Legacy car manufacturers had $250 billion profits, but didn't spend any money on building this capability. Meanwhile, Tesla made electric cars, built supercharger network, built gigafactories, expanded these capabilities globally.
(3) Dealers hate EVs. Even if legacy manufacturers make EVs, dealers won't sell them. I've been going to dealerships every year for more than five years, dealers treat you like shit if you wanna buy an EV. Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs. They aren't going to make much money replacing windshield wipers.
(4) Meanwhile, China has figured out how to do EVs at scale, iterating and improving batteries and EVs. Eventually, legacy car manufacturers will go bust (after taking tens of billions in bailouts). We'll import cars from China either directly or indirectly. If there are too many tariffs, China is going to build assembly plants in Mexico or Canada, sell them very competitively in US. VW sells ID.3 for 16K in China, the competition is intense![2]
> Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs. They aren't going to make much money replacing windshield wipers.
A hybrid can have a 2 year/20k factory oil change interval, and really doesn't need much of any other service. An ICE comes in once a year for an oil change and not much else. Maybe spark plugs and timing belt around 100k... if that even goes to the dealer service and not an independent.
Sure, more brake work on an ICE. More tire work on an EV (heavier, probably fancy low rolling resistance tires). Maybe some transmission work on an ICE or Hybrid, but they're all 'sealed' units these days that are not supposed to need anything done to them. Other than that, what does an ICE have that an EV doesn't that needs regular maintenance?
We're not going from a 1970s carburated car that needs regular tuneups to an EV.
> Other than that, what does an ICE have that an EV doesn't that needs regular maintenance?
The short answer is: more stuff that can break.
What you outlined is true in the best case scenario. Anecdotally, if I had to guess, 20% of my friends and family with cars older than 5 years have had them in the shop for something other than routine maintenance just this year. (And I realize that this is cherry-picked, but many (most?) ICE cars, frankly, are just not that reliable.)
> What you outlined is true in the best case scenario. Anecdotally, if I had to guess, 20% of my friends and family with cars older than 5 years have had them in the shop for something other than routine maintenance just this year. (And I realize that this is cherry-picked, but many (most?) ICE cars, frankly, are just not that reliable.)
Do EVs fare any better in practice? Just looking at reliability by manufacturer, Tesla's reliability is below the industry average^[1], which you would not expect if electric cars were fundamentally more reliable by virtue of having less "stuff that can break". The related notion that EVs are cheaper to maintain also seems up for debate^[2], and GGP's assertion that EVs have "zero repairs" is risible on its face.
I'm willing to entertain the possibility that Tesla is simply a subpar car manufacturer despite being the West's premier EV manufacturer, but either way we are evidently not yet living in a world where EVs offer car buyers freedom from maintenance and breakage.
The one thing I'd push back on about these reliability surveys are that most of the things its measuring aren't the drivetrain itself. The most impactful thing for reliability in their surveys are infotainment systems. Having some indexed score of "reliability" when it includes "could the user figure out how to pair their cell phone" and not actually getting the drill down on the different areas of reliability make the score pretty worthless to me when trying to determine if an ICE or an EV is more reliable.
Also, with Hertz having problems keeping Teslas repaired, its also not necessarily pointing to drivetrain reliability. Its not immediately obvious from the reporting if the issues they're having are mostly drivetrain or other parts like bodywork and suspension and what not. If a Tesla bumper replacement is more expensive than a Nissan Altima bumper replacement, is that EV drivetrains being more expensive?
I don't disagree, but from the consumer point of view I don't think it really matters unless repairs are much cheaper—which the Hertz thing, though admittedly just one data point from a company trying to justify a big move, contradicts. It just illustrates how EVs are in fact cars, and aren't magically free from most of the same old reliability issues drivers already deal with.
BEV evangelists commonly steer reliability comparisons toward the drivetrain, since it in theory ought to be more reliable (at the very least it will have fewer moving parts), but I don't think my earlier comment was in an explicitly drivetrain-specific context. As you say, there are many other facets of vehicle reliability that matter.
It's also worth mentioning that modern ICEs seem to be exceptionally reliable even with the bare minimum maintenance, which makes sense given the maturity of the technologies involved. Transmissions maybe not so much, but the obvious answer to that IMO is hybrid drive systems—series hybrids, simple planetary gear systems, etc. Everything on the road today ought to be a hybrid, since they're arguably the most impactful way to distribute our limited battery production capacity. A standard hybrid battery is something like 1/100 the capacity of a BEV battery.
Ok, but still then these links don't mean too much either way with these other ideas. If a Tesla bumper replacement is expensive compared to a Ford, that's not speaking to the repair costs of EVs that's the repair costs for Teslas. There's nothing inherently more expensive about an EV's headlights or whatever compared to a similar ICE.
Is a Volkswagen EV generally more expensive to repair than a Volkswagen ICE? Do your links answer that kind of question?
And you're talking to a person literally commenting from the auto shop after shelling out a couple hundred bucks in maintenance on a 2017 ICE, maintenance that I literally won't have to do on my EV. So kind of funny having someone suggest the EV is more expensive when it's going against my lived experience, right now.
This comment thread was started by a person who claimed that "EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs". That is the context in which I posted these links, because it's total bullshit and said links trivially prove it.
But—since you asked—just Googling around, recentish CR data^[1] (late '22) do seem to show that Tesla isn't a low outlier in terms of reliability, being joined in the lower echelons of EV reliability by such manufacturers as "Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Jeep, GMC and Chevrolet." All well-established manufacturers that seem to be having just as much trouble building reliable EVs as Tesla.
All these data, though obviously incomplete, point strongly in a certain direction: that an EV powertrain is not a magic bullet for reliability or repair costs. Do you have any material reason to suspect that the obvious conclusion isn't the correct one?
> And you're talking to a person literally commenting from the auto shop after shelling out a couple hundred bucks in maintenance on a 2017 ICE, maintenance that I literally won't have to do on my EV. So kind of funny having someone suggest the EV is more expensive when it's going against my lived experience, right now.
Anecdotes like this are are just as irrelevant as the EV sob stories that constantly make the news, which is why I haven't posted any of the latter. But if we're doing that, did you catch that crazy story^[2] about the Tesla owner who was told their battery suffered "water ingress" after driving in the rain and that they'd have to shell out $20k for a new one just like that? What a bummer!
> “Remember, in the likes of GM and other OEMs, there’s decades of establishment of a broad national parts supply network. There’s an aftermarket of parts that that is there that is less mature obviously in the context of Tesla,” Scherr said, adding that margins and other EV issues would improve as Hertz looks to “diversify” that part of its fleet.
It sounds like they aren't saying anything about rates of issue, but rather cost. A Malibu could have 10 issues for every 1 of the same issue on a Tesla (e.g bumper replacement), but if the Tesla costs $2,000 to fix and the Malibu is $150 to fix, the Malibu is going to win. But one would expect that as the Teslas continue to become popular, cheaper parts will arrive.
Yeah, all other things being equal I would not expect EVs to be more expensive to repair unless batteries are failing at an unexpected rate. But since the majority of EVs on the road today are Teslas, I think it's still relevant to consumers.
> What you outlined is true in the best case scenario. Anecdotally, if I had to guess, 20% of my friends and family with cars older than 5 years have had them in the shop for something other than routine maintenance just this year. (And I realize that this is cherry-picked, but many (most?) ICE cars, frankly, are just not that reliable.)
Sure, I bought a first model year FCA car, so I understand. It's ICE only, and has been in the shop a lot (I should have pursued lemon law remedies, but it wasn't really that bad...). But it's never been powertrain issues. Bad crimping of connectors in wiring harness led to assistance features disabling, paint issues, multiple issues with infotainment, door beeper went out, problems with sliding doors, whatever recalls, 12v battery failed early, and the replacement failed a month after. All of that kind of stuff happens to EVs too.
Some day, I'm sure I'll add a spectacular transmission failure on this particular vehicle, and that wouldn't have been an issue with an EV, or at least not in the same way (EVs do often have some sort of gearing, and could be sensitive to manufacturing or assembly errors in the gears and bearings, but it's usually mechanically simpler than a 9 speed automatic)
> Some day, I'm sure I'll add a spectacular transmission failure on this particular vehicle, and that wouldn't have been an issue with an EV, or at least not in the same way (EVs do often have some sort of gearing, and could be sensitive to manufacturing or assembly errors in the gears and bearings, but it's usually mechanically simpler than a 9 speed automatic)
Mechanically, my CR-V hybrid's "transmission" is two electric motors and two lockup clutches geared for different cruise speeds. Given the reliability of modern ICEs, it seems like the best of both worlds from a complexity standpoint (not that reliability necessarily correlates in a straightforward way).
My C-Max has a mechanically simple hybrid transmission, but they screwed up manufacturing (bearing failure), so it was replaced under warranty. That did drive revenue to the dealer, I guess.
Starters are electric motors, EVs certainly have those. Alternators, are electric generators, which EVs kind of have, but different. Hyrbids usually omit separate starters and alternators (I think), because they've already got motor/generators and may as well use those.
Exhaust / emissions, yes. Emissions systems are notoriously flakey.
A bird and a plane both "fly" in the sky, but they aren't the same. A helicopter and a plane can both transport people in the sky, but they are also very different.
To claim that an EV has a starter motor and an alternator is misunderstanding at best, wrong at worst. An EV doesn't have a have a starter motor than cranks a huge mechanical engine. An ICE's alternator converts AC to DC, it has a DC/DC converter.
Electric vehicles certainly have their own issues (which may or may not be worse, depending on your point of view), but one of their advantages is fewer moving mechanical parts.
You could’ve stopped at 1. US auto manufacturers don’t know how to make anything but trucks. Not that they actually know how to make them, because they’re all pieces of shit, but just that’s the only thing people in the US buy from US manufacturers because no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans.
So of course they were handed this project by the feds to expand their EV offerings and completely shit the bed. They’ve been spending decades competing on making the most fuel unfriendly vehicles on the planet.
I don’t want an EV, but if I did, American (including Tesla) would be the last place I looked.
> no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans
(Genuine) Q: Why is it that the rest of the world manages just fine without needing full size diesel pickups? Over here even tradespeople drive panel vans, not pickups.
"But you can fit a full sheet of plywood on a truck bed! That's why I need a Ford F-150!"
Yea, you could do that with a 90's Toyota Hilux too and it was 75% smaller =)
Also you can fit that exact same sheet in a van and it's covered from the elements, along with your tools.
It's all about image.
Americans think van = "free candy child molester" or "FBI stakeout" and minivan = "soccer mom", which is bad for some reason.
Thus, everybody drives HUGE TRUCKS or SUVs, because they've been marketed as cool for 20+ years. Even though a proper mini van would do the exact same thing in a smaller, more efficient package.
(also huge trucks are exempt from environmental standards because of a legal fuckup they refuse to fix and thus better profits for the manufacturer)
> "But you can fit a full sheet of plywood on a truck bed! That's why I need a Ford F-150!"
You actually can’t fit full sheet goods (4’x8’) into 99% of pickups, there are very few pickups on the road with full-size (8’) beds that can fit sheet goods, most of them have ridiculously short beds, like 5’ long.
The shortening of pickup truck beds over the past few decades is such a joke. It reveals how many of the claims about needing a truck for practical reasons are bs. Nowadays they are mostly inefficient vans that people happen to think look cooler.
There are lots of things you can put on the back of a truck without fear that are too dirty/grimy/smelly/wet to be comfortable throwing in the back of the van. Most of the "work" an American truck sees is light yard work and maybe moving around dirt, seed, mulch, lawn decorations, or small machines. The rest is fully recreational or stylistic. Trucks are really, really nice to have and no one would be judgemental about whether you "really need one" if it weren't for global warming. Most Americans also couldn't give less of a shit about global warming no matter what they say.
Ground clearance and 4-wheel drive mostly. Depending on where you live in the US, the scope of non-paved surfaces you may need to drive on occasionally can be quite a bit larger than most of the developed world. I used to have a cheap second car, a full-size 4WD Bronco, that I used for purposes that might require it when I lived in the US mountain west. During winter or when going over some unpaved mountain passes, I'd use the Bronco. In some areas even a good high-clearance AWD like a Subaru was taking a risk. Many people don't need it and most people don't need it all the time, but when you need it you need it.
There are well over a million miles of unpaved roads and highways in the US. These usually have insufficient traffic to justify the cost of putting in a proper road bed. Equally, if you do get stuck out there because of poor road conditions, you may be stranded for a long time. American trucks, for good or ill, are designed to drive on these kinds of roads all day without falling apart.
I have a high-clearance AWD today and have a lot of experience driving on these types of roads. There are still occasional times when I "nope"-out of a road and turn around due to road conditions that really recommend a proper 4WD truck. It has happened in more parts of the US than I think people expect.
EDIT: Another common use case in some parts of the US is towing heavy things like boats, in places where every other person seems to own boats or other types of large vehicle trailers. Never my use case though.
This applies to some people but I think is really overstating things. Only ~10% of 4x4 vehicles ever get driven offroad, and most of the US population has paved roads everywhere they want to go. Vehicles that get driven offroad invariably get a lot of scratches, mud, etc, and the vast majority of trucks I see around town are absolutely pristine in that regard.
There are plenty of legit use cases for a high clearance 4x4, but I think the vast majority of people claiming that they need one are being disingenuous, and really just want to feel like their commuter car is cool.
Diesel trucks tow heavy equipment (10k+ lbs) very fuel efficiently which is a common use-case in the states without needing to resort to a semi. Where I live a large number of people also own travel trailers and boats, which also lend themselves to diesel pickups.
I own a smaller truck myself (Ford Maverick) and tow a ~3000lb trailer with it regularly in the summer. My fuel economy goes from 30 mpg -> 11 mpg while towing. If I had a diesel, it would have virtually zero impact on mpg.
My take: it’s actually really awful trying to tow a trailer through the mountains without a diesel pickup.
Now, most people aren’t doing that every day, every year or ever, but a person thinks “what if I ever need to tow my airstream through the Rockies like they show on those commercials?” And they buy the vehicle with the most utility.
Other places that have mountainous regions, like South America, do have a lot more diesel trucks and 4x4s, so geographic region does play a part.
Curious why the American car hate. I drove a Honda for more than a decade and thought I'd be a Honda driver for life, until I got a Tesla. I love it. From now on I'll be getting Teslas or Rivians or whatever else premium EVs happen to be the best, regardless of whether they're American, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, German, etc.
Big three makers have very poor average quality, often ending up at the bottom of reliability lists.
Tesla, from my expertise as a car builder, is just very sloppy. Poor panel fitment, door alignment, chintzy cheap materials for the price, and ultimately the smoke and mirror show that is FSD. Even if you manage to find one without all these issues, you still have a power source that essentially expires after 10 years and costs as much as a car to replace.
Yeah it's really just the "EV" part that I like about the Tesla. Not ever having to pay for gas at a gas station and the fast acceleration. If just Toyota or Honda would release a long range mid/large electric SUV or van, not make me deal with dealership salespeople to get one, and make them easy to get, I'd get one of those next.
> You could’ve stopped at 1. US auto manufacturers don’t know how to make anything but trucks. Not that they actually know how to make them, because they’re all pieces of shit, but just that’s the only thing people in the US buy from US manufacturers because no one else makes full size diesel pickups. Not the Japanese, the Koreans or the Europeans.
That's because of protectionist laws, aka the chicken tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
Asian/European manufacturers were squeezed out of the light truck market. US manufacturers then had this lucrative niche they marketed the hell out of.
> Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs.
This is wildly exaggerated, as in completely made-up.
The only significant difference is combustion engine internals vs. electric motor, which has a large difference in moving parts. But not two orders of magnitude.
The thing is, the ICE has had well over a century of perfecting, so while it is a lot more complex, it is so mature that stuff does not break. In over 35 years of owning many many cars, the number of times I've had an ICE internal component go bad is.. zero. Statistical noise aside, that's not a thing anymore and has not been since the 60s/70s.
The car that I've had which has spent by far (far) the most time at the dealer for repairs, was an EV. Nothing to do with the powertrain, just the usual stuff that breaks on cars like window regulators, electrical switches and hatch actuators. All things that are exactly the same regardless of ICE or EV powertrain.
OK, separate the drive train and just focus on the engine. That's completely fair. All engines need to distribute power to the wheels and those parts are identical.
If we don't count the ball bearings, an EV has 1 moving part.
A combustion engine easily has an "order of magnitude" more components. And I'm not even counting the gearbox here, which - in a modern automatic car - is clockwork levels of crazy gearing and technology.
The actual engine is just magnets and driveshaft. Very little can go wrong. It either works or doesn't.
A combustion engine has camshafts and pistons and valve lifters and timing chains (or belts) and dozens more. Every single of those moving parts is a potential failure mode. Add to that all the electronics and sensors we need to run a modern combustion engine, the complexity goes up exponentially.
Granted, we have been perfecting the metallurgy and construction of combustion engines for 100 years so they're amazingly reliable considering they work by inducing thousands of explosions a minute while every part moves at insane speeds.
I keep hearing about these things from people telling me how great it is that EVs have so few moving parts yet in almost 3 decades of owning ICE vehicles I've never had to do more repair work under the hood than change a starter, a water pump and an alternator(once each). I've been stranded thanks to bad software, but that's not specific to ICE. Owning an ICE isn't all that much work. Oh wait, oil changes, but those are pretty easy.
Each was 1000-2000€ except for the radiator. The DPF would've been a 2k€ operation, but I found a sketchy mechanic who just drilled it out and chipped the car to think the DPF was just fine. I paid in cash, didn't get a receipt =)
Then a tiny hex shaft broke in the bottom of the engine. It was the only thing running the oil pump to the engine and the only official repair was to replace the whole bottom part of the engine as a whole. Estimate: 2000€++.
It was fixed with liquid metal or something by a different sketchy car mechanic and I sold it immediately.
It isn't more work until it is. Modern ICEs have been refined for over 100 years. Most are very reliable. But if a timing belt or valve breaks, or the automatic transmission, or... yeah you're looking at a very, very expensive repair most of the time.
In the years of my car ownership I've seen failing engine seals, multiple kinds of EGR failures, catalytic converter degradation, intake manifold baffle solenoids fail, fuel pump failures, thermostat failures, and more. And that's just failures, not all the preventative maintenance like changing spark plugs, changing timing belts, fluid replacements, valve clearance adjustments, and more.
Meanwhile the maintenance schedule for my EV drive train is a fluid change every 150,000mi.
The first "real" maintenance is at 150k km where they do something to the battery cooling system. After that the next one is at 300k. I have no intention of keeping the car that long.
(of course there's the regular tire changes and brake repair, but it's not enforced by the manufacturer)
> Granted, we have been perfecting the metallurgy and construction of combustion engines for 100 years so they're amazingly reliable considering they work by inducing thousands of explosions a minute while every part moves at insane speeds.
Agreed! If neither electric nor IC engines existed and we started developing both from scratch today, clearly the electric motors would be reliable within a year (I'm guessing, but probably) and the IC engines would take decades of development and manufacturing maturity to match the reliability.
But, that's not the world where we are. The ICE does have more than a century of development already so Honda/Mazda/Toyota/etc can manufacture an IC engine that'll go 200K+ miles with zero problems, so for a consumer buying a car today, the powerplant is not the source of trouble (whether EV or ICE). It's the rest of the car that needs repairs.
(An ICE engine should not have any explosions occurring, that's pinging and will damage the engine. It needs to be a controlled burn. But I'm nitpicking on the word.)
Isn't the difference between a controlled burn and explosion just the outcome? If everything is fine, it was controlled, otherwise it was an explosion =)
In my opinion the future will be an EV drivetrain. The only question is how do we store the energy to run the electric engines.
Batteries are a decent solution, but I'd love to see more range extenders like the Chevy Volt / Opel Ampera. Put in a 10-20kW battery, a 20-40 litre gas/diesel tank and a highly optimised generator that only charges the batteries.
Ta-dah, best of both worlds. You've got a reliable engine (steady RPM, steady output, no need to turbo it for power etc.) and a drivetrain that produces instant torque and is highly reliable.
> If we don't count the ball bearings, an EV has 1 moving part.
They have four wheels (with, if you’re nitpicking, have many parts: the wheel itself, the tire, disc brake, brake pads, electronics for ABS, screws to put them together), and suspension (probably a more heavy one than ICE cars), don’t they?
(and doors and a trunk that can be opened, and handles to open the doors and trunk, and a steering wheel that has to be turned, and sun visors, and fans for cooling and heating, and, for modern cars, AC, likely with moving parts, and probably a few more moving parts)
Sorry, misread your statement because it used the term EV incorrectly and replied to a statement that said the number of parts in an engine doesn’t matter because that tech is so well-understood that it rarely breaks down.
Because of that, I think saying the engine has only one moving part isn’t a good argument in a discussion of “Electric cars require much less maintenance than ICE cars”
> An internal combustion engine has hundreds or thousands, depending on the model.
Can you tell me which ICE has thousands of moving parts?
I've rebuilt several engines and can't think of anything that comes close.
In fact I have a fully disassembled (top and bottom) 4 cylinder engine sitting in the garage as a long term project and I'm pretty sure it's less than a hundred parts, although I haven't really counted. Certainly not multiple hundreds.
There's a manner of thinking wherein a car's engine is a part that you replace if it breaks. The fact that it has a lot of components inside it does not matter, from a certain point of view. One or a million, if it breaks, you yank it and replace it.
Another point of view of course is that each piece is one more way to break.
You know perfectly well that that isn't true. There wasn't any perfecting going on because the relevant class of EVs simply didn't exist and wasn't technologically possible for most of that century.
Electric motors have had well over a century of research, development and production. Same with batteries and specifically lithium batteries has been commercially available for over 3 decades.
A combination of battery and electric motor is an obvious solution for powering a vehicle. This is nothing new, revolutionary or disruptive. It has been tried many times before and has always failed for certain reasons. It will win, but not overnight.
> The thing is, the ICE has had well over a century of perfecting, so while it is a lot more complex, it is so mature that stuff does not break.
Actually, it's so mature that it breaks exactly when the manufacturers want it to - after warranty.
Just like you can optimise a 3D-printed shelf to have a shape that's almost fully load-bearing and thus uses less material, you can produce a part that can be stressed a certain number of times before it breaks.
This practice crossed some kind of threshold in the latter half of the last decade, because every manufacturer is now in on it.
So cars are indeed "getting worse", because the margins of reliability are now much thinner than e.g. 20 years ago.
Which is a problem why ? Is it such a cartel that there is no competition on providing marginally more expensive parts with a meaningfully longer warranty ?
> In over 35 years of owning many many cars, the number of times I've had an ICE internal component go bad is.. zero. Statistical noise aside, that's not a thing anymore and has not been since the 60s/70s.
If ICE cars never fail, I wonder what all the auto mechanics are doing? 282,637 automotive repair companies are currently in business, with 614,433 employees. How are they surviving is nobody is getting their ICE cars repaired?
I've had interactions with a few hundred people (at least) over 2 decades and every single person had their ICE car in the shop for repairs, small and large.
ICE cars also have major scheduled maintenance, somewhere around 90 - 120K, you have to replace timing belt and a bunch of things.
Car dealers don't make any money on selling new cars. Nobody buys a new car unless its priced a few thousand below MSRP (the past 2 years are an aberration). Dealerships make money on service. This is the same model as inkjet printers.
ICE cars are so horribly unreliable and bad, even new ones, there exist special laws just for them: lemon laws.
> 282,637 automotive repair companies are currently in business, with 614,433 employees. How are they surviving is nobody is getting their ICE cars repaired?
Collisions. The most expensive repair I've had is bodywork after a small fender bender. Way more expensive than maintenance or even pretty substantial repairs like an alternator replacement.
That's not to say that ICE cars don't ever need repairs for mechanical failures, but for such a complex machine they're extremely reliable.
Well I never said that. I said that components of the IC engine itself fail exceedingly rarely (in my personal experience, never).
"The car" is a far greater system than just the engine or motor. The powerplant (IC or electric) is a tiny percentage of the car as a whole.
It's all the other stuff that fails and keeps cars in the repair shop.
My second EV spent multiple weeks at the dealer to fix a window regulator that kept failing. Other things that often fail are electronics, actuator motors, wiring glitches, shocks, etc. All parts which are common to all cars, regardless of how it happens to produce horsepower.
> ICE cars are so horribly unreliable and bad, even new ones, there exist special laws just for them: lemon laws.
Ok you're clearly biased, since the above is not true. Lemon laws are not specific to ICE cars. They apply to EVs and plenty of EVs get repurchased due to lemon law criteria. I personally know someone who lemon law'd a Tesla. Lemons laws trigger if a new car spends an inordinate time at the dealer being repaired for whatever reason. Our EV (with the window regulator problem) came within a week of meeting lemon law criteria.
I think for very well maintained and new cars, maintenance is low. For a normal human used car, there are unknown unknowns! :D
Consider the engine + transmission + exhaust + fuel, many moving parts all that can cause a fail closed of your car. Fuel system alone has a pump, filter, injectors, injector booster (looking at you bmw!). All that goes in the trash.
I will grant that EVs have new exciting things like coolant loop and pump for batteries so we don't get off that easy. Zero belts however, not a timing anything in sight, and the old coolant vs oil battle for heat movement is over.
Transmissions too can be a huge source of pain, modern ones are great, but if you end up with something <2012 or a CVT, who knows what could go wrong? Ton of solenoids, some fluid that can burn, for CVTs a lame belt...
It's a lot, EVs totally simplify that. In my mind my biggest worry is that all that stuff is software controlled now, which could be better but might be worse if we look at the average quality of code...
China. Seriously. People who haven’t been recently don’t even know. Massive changes are afoot. So many new car options! And they all seem to have massage seats.
Don't even have to go to China. Here in the Netherlands the amount of MG, BYD, NIO, Volvo, Polestar, Zeekr or XPeng on the road here is immense. German manufacturers are complaining people don't want EVs, but that's BS. It's just that the EVs people are actually buying are either American, Chinese or Korean, because they're not insanely expensive.
I just opened a lease car comparison site. Under €650 a month I get 11 German(-ish) cars to choose from. 10 of which are VAG, 1 is BMW. In total, however, I have 180+ cars to choose from, many of which are much cheaper than the German ones and are way better equipped.
1) is complete nonsense, 2) ignores how Tesla was funded which no traditional car company has access to, 3) is overblown and 4) is because it's a managed economy.
Traditional car companies have access to tens of billions in bailouts, which EVs never have and never will. (1) Chrysler Bailout of 1979, $1.5 billion (2) In 2008, $17.4 billion bailout to General Motors and Chrysler (3) In 2009, $3 billion, cash for clunkers
The issue is that the end users are also the electorate. Forcing everyone to EVs is going to cost more money than cars do now (at least for a time), and the same constituents that vote for legislators are going to feel it.
It worked for making dishwashers and washing machines shittier and more power efficient, maybe it will work for cars too. I just don’t think most people in the US are willing to commit to switching, however.
> There’s one very obvious way to force this transition and that’s to make gas prohibitively expensive.
With the way PG&E keeps raising electricity prices in California, it may be cheaper to go back to gas. Just heard they are pushing yet another huge increase next year. As we approach $1/kWh, charging an EV gets painful.
I live in California and honestly one of the major reasons I will never go electric in California is PG&E. They will find a way to exploit electric cars to try to solve their self-created problems, and I refuse to pay them for their incompetence especially after so many have died at their hands.
Let me be specific. They killed 84 people with their negligence in Paradise alone, but they keep raising rates while never seeming to have the money to fix their problems. Did you know that in just 2021 the PG&E CEO Patricia Poppe was paid $51.2 million — the year that fire killed 84 Californians she made 51.2 million bucks for doing such a good job.
They can take their electric future and shove it right where the sun doesn’t shine. They want to make that company the center of California’s future.
And they want to raise rates again this year a huge amount on every single customer. After rolling back solar incentives for rooftop.
I’m sorry, I hate PG&E. Especially when you have models like SMUD and Roseville power just chugging along delivering power inside the same system at less than half the price. There is no excuse left for PG&E to continue as it has. They need to be broken up and someone like SMUD should take over.
> Especially when you have models like SMUD and Roseville power just chugging along delivering power inside the same system at less than half the price.
And Palo Alto too. Every time I want to get depressed and cry a little I go look at the Palo Alto electric rates. I don't live that far from PA but being in the PG&E abuse zone, have to pay far more.
The auto industry went on a huge too much car per car kick. I was at a Jeep dealership today. All Jeep Wranglers in stock were 4-door. Prices started at $70K and went to over $100K. And that's before the after-sale charges. These aren't even the electric model. This is 2x-3x over inflation since the $25K Jeep Wrangler of 2007.
Elon stated that Cybertruck will weigh about 7000 lbs. That's 3.5 tons.
That's the same mass as an F-350 DRW (dual rear wheel) loaded with options.
Seriously heavy. I'm not anti heavy vehicles or anything; I have a 3/4 ton truck myself (~5200 lbs.) I just think it's eye opening just how heavy these EVs are.
An interesting thing I've read re: passenger car weights is that even though there are continuous gains in weight reduction (for eg by using composites), the overall weight has stayed the same/gone up for decades due to more safety devices/crash zones etc. It appears to be the hardware equivalent of Wirth's/Bill's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law).
A Rivian R1S is 8,500 lbs. These electric SUV's are insanely heavy. Like heavy enough a standard passenger vehicle driver's license shouldnt apply. A 8,500lbs suv with sports car acceleration. We're gonna see the pedestrian vehicle death record go up every year.
For (~100kg) pedestrian, I am sure the difference in lethality from being hit by a 1000kg vehicle vs a 3000kg vehicle is insubstantial. Where the weight would matter is for vehicle-vehicle collisions.
The vast majority of pedestrians survive getting hit by a car, not all incidents happen at highway speeds. A difference between a mass of 1 and 3 tons would absolutely make a difference in lethality.
Dubious claim. A vehicle might as well be a wall with infinite mass vs a pedestrian. Deformation, breaking and being passed out of the way are what counts.
I thought the biggest driver in The USA for truck v pedestrian deaths is the hood height issue and not really weight. There just isn't enough difference there to matter while hood heights approaching 6 feet are becoming standard in new trucks.
Height wouldn’t be bad if they gave it more angles than a gas stove. Consider a prius, the car is literally just a bulbous doorstop. That is so much better for pedestrian safety because they just roll up and off. NHTSA is clearly corrupt for allowing those beastly trucks and suvs on our roads. No engineer would have signed off on those.
I absolutely loved my 2019 Chevy Bolt, but the wife did not. It's a great commuter but didn't feel 'cushy'. If they can deliver comfort in a small EV they'll be onto something.
My wife and I are leasing a 2022 Kia Niro EV that I’m generally very happy with. When we return it, I’ll probably go looking for something slightly longer, but generally it does everything we want and need.
I just want a small, cheap second car for running errands around the neighborhood. TBH, if I ever break down on this, I’ll probably just buy a 12 year old Leaf that gets 70 miles of range for $6,000, or whatever. I just really want an electric version of the adorable, tiny Japanese trucks I see in my Seattle neighborhood.
Preemptive edit: yes I’ve thought many times about buying an e-bike. Love the idea, but I value my health too much to entrust it to Seattle drivers. Every person I know who regularly bikes in Seattle has some horror story about being hit by a car.
Until our municipal government values biking as a first class alternative to driving, I will not put myself in danger.
Yeah I used to bike commute years ago but gave that up because I don't want to die young.
I think I had a Kia for a day when the Bolt was in for the battery recall and it wasn't bad. I still think the Bolt nailed the one-pedal driving though and I preferred it over the Kia. Thanks for reminding me, I almost forgot I'd driven that car. It was a lot more comfortable and finished than the Bolt, although not as nimble from what I remember.
You're less likely to die young as a regular bike rider, and more likely to be killed due to some driver's inattentiveness or impatience. Not the same thing, even if you'd be dead either way.
I was looking at the first one (Suzuki version) living in Tokyo but decided it was too cramped for even a small family and the crash ratings are not as good as a full size car. In particular the luggage space is lacking.
Volkswagen e-Up and its sisters(Skoda Citigo and Seat Mii) exist? It's a cheap car with Volkswagen build quality, 36kWh battery that easily gives you 150 miles range, no touch screen nonsense, fits a baby seat no problem, Costco shopping, it just works day in and day out. It's literally my favourite car I ever owned, and I used to have a Mercedes-AMG at one point. It's just so usable and costs nothing to run(charging at home it's literally less than a pound for 60 miles, I think my old petrol car would use a pound worth of petrol just to start up).
There seem to be a lot of models with really short lifetimes. I've been looking to buy a used EV to get past the depreciation cliff, and the number of ones for sale that have been discontinued - not a model number increment, just vanished from the range entirely - is remarkable. It's like smartphones.
I mean the e-Up has been in production since 2013, it enjoyed 10 years of market presence in pretty much unchanged form(other than the battery bump in 2020). And it's only being discontinued because VW is replacing it with an ID.2
I still don't think we'll see any of these small affordable ones in the US. The only one close I'm aware of is Nissan's Leaf and it is being discontinued last I heard.
I'd like to try one out for my next car but I can't afford a luxury car.
I know that when placed next an F-150 the Kona looks almost like a toy, but in Europe it's a proper family car. And I can confirm it's much larger than an e-Up(and also twice as expensive).
I’d assume that VW will get around to launching the ID.2 in the US at some point. The US is a smaller electric car market than Europe and is less enthusiastic about small cars, so it makes sense that they prioritise Europe, but there’s presumably some market for it in the US.
Those are nice, but I think it's a shame new EV production has to coincide with an exterior 'facelift' to match the moment.
Why do most new EVs over the last 10 years need to look like EVs? At least Tesla and a few other brands are slooowly dialing that down finally.
The eGolf and eUp looked almost exactly the same as their petrol counterparts. It caused a lot of confusion; many people think the ID.Whatever cars are VW’s first electric cars. For better or for worse, “weird-looking” seems to work as marketing for electric cars.
I would by a car like the ID.3 tomorrow, but they won't sell it in the US.
The US market is so weird. Mostly dominated by very expensive, very large vehicles. Yet, it seems like the kind of consumer who might want a EV is also the kind of consumer who would want a smaller vehicle, which would be far more practical. I guess the Bolt (in limbo, with a new design maybe coming?) and Nissan Leaf are pretty much it right now.
I think automakers just assume "US consumers want big, expensive cars" and copy/pasted that over to their EV offerings, while the big untapped EV market is probably for more practical people who would gladly drive a smaller, more efficient, cheaper vehicle.
Cross posting this from another thread....I can see both sides to this argument (saying this as someone who owns property in multiple countries and has an electric (Tesla Model 3LR), Plug in Hybrid(Chevy Volt 2nd gen) and ICE cars (A 20 year old Volvo S60 and 22 year old Audi TT)).
In the US it mostly is a decent decision to buy electric (and I love my Tesla and Volt I use here) but there are some caveats.
1. The insurance tends to be a bit more expensive.
2. You need to have a place with charging infrastructure (like your own home or an apartment etc. that has free charging).
3. Paid chargers often have similar costs to buying gas for ICE vehicles.
4. Battery degradation is a thing. As someone who lives in the SouthEast and likes to keep cars for 10-15+ years that becomes an issue with cars like the Volt where the only option that makes economic sense when the battery dies is to try to find a refurb from another vehicle if the car is out of warranty. As these refurbed batteries age, or people buy batteries from salvaged volts for home solar batteries that will become an issue (and already is for many 1st gen volts). The Tesla is not as likely to have that issue because a lot more were produced, but if other offerings have after sales support similar to the volt because of lower than expected sales volumes that becomes a perception issue down the road unless you want to just purchase a car, take a big depreciation hit and then trade it in a few years.
5. depreciation see #4.
6. Sales are currently slowing down with inventory piling up even with federal subsidies right now. Imagine how much lower it would be without them.
7. To add more range to a car like the Tesla you need to add more batteries which adds a lot of weight to the car (they have already gone after most the low hanging fruit with motor efficiency and vehicle wind drag). Because of the weight it goes through tires a lot quicker. (30K miles vs 60K average for tires)
With the Tesla, it is practical for my needs, but I bought it more so because it is fun to drive, I like the tech etc..
Other countries, outside of Europe, China and other developed nations are a mixed bag.
For example in Costa Rica, where I have a property, even with the government tax discounts it doesn't make any sense because electric is really expensive there and it is difficult to get parts is something goes wrong. Also, if you want a car that you are not going to drive a lot of miles in every year there is also the issue of time degrading your battery which is going to be a lot more expensive and difficult to replace there.
South Africa has so many current problems with their electric grid that they heavily tax BEV's and plug in hybrid cars instead of offering tax breaks like other countries. Ironically, having solar panels and batteries for a house makes more sense there.
....and guess which car brand is has one of the higher theft rates because of parts and resale around the world....Toyota, who has been very slow to go BEV. The formula for Toyota is to wait until technologies are perfected and to then build reliable products that will last for years which the majority of buyers seem to prefer worldwide.
Because of the slow market adoption it will not surprise me if the legislation around the world to ban ICE sales ends up being relaxed before it takes effect and the transition happens much more slowly.
FWIW I haven't found some of these to be the case for me. The insurance for my EV was maybe a few bucks/month more expensive than it would've been for a Prius, but my car was also a bit pricier than a Prius.
I don't have charging at home, but the L2 charging around me is reasonably priced. Equivalent to buying gas for $2/gallon (and I live in a place with pricy gas, around $5-6/gallon). L3 chargers can be closer to gas prices, but they're only necessary on very long road trips which I rarely do
No one wants to buy the 80-100k stuff they want you to buy. You need to have reasonable EVs priced in the 20-40k range. People keep buying up all the bolts and for some reason Chevy won’t make enough of them. The f-150 lightning was back ordered before they raised the prices 1.5 years ago from a relatively affordable 42k to whatever it is now (closer to 60k for the base model I think).
Yes, this is exactly the point. 10 years ago I bought a car for 18k. It served me well and while not the most comfortable thing, there is no equivalent in size (5 seats + lots of luggage space) in the EV market for a similar price. Salary averages did not go up by 100% to compare to current 40k-60k prices on offered EV products.
They need to build smaller, less fancy cars with prices for normal people.
The sub-$30k EVs are very popular here but they’re also reportedly quite hard to buy. My understanding is that we’re basically seeing the hangover of the auto industry mistiming the pandemic – when they misjudged the market & created a chip shortage, they pushed everything into the highest margin SUVs and trucks where their profit rate is twice as high – and the dealers resenting EVs both for personal political reasons and the way an EV locks in lower profits for their service departments.
Chevy won’t make enough of them because they don’t make any money on them. In fact, they were losing thousands of dollars on every Bolt sold for years. What customers want is a car that’s sold for below cost, which is of course completely unsustainable.
The solid state battery era may help. If charging times come down to ten minutes or less, the land use for charging infrastructure changes. Charging stations start to look like gas stations instead of parking lots. No need to find something for the customers to do while charging; a convenience store and restrooms is enough.
This will hasten adoption. We'll see gas stations taking out their pumps and tanks to put in chargers and transformers.
It's pretty easy to understand at least one big facet of it. If you don't own a house you're charging your car for a few hours a week. You have to go to a charging station and sit there in your car. Most people live in apartments. Unless you can park your car in a garage to charge it overnight it's a significant added hassle.
In Norway many apartment complexes have parkingspots that offer
charging station, or that offers you the ability to have one installed.
(Which is expensive, but you get the optimal charger for your car)
One problem has been that there is not enough power coming via the
regular infrastructure but believe that has been mostly solved now.
Then there are a lot of people who do not have permanent parking space.
Most commercial parking houses offer some spots with charging but the
need may outstrip the availability.
If you are left to find a parking spot outside somewhere you are
out of luck, unless there is a charging station close to work,
(and you drive to work)
I'm, like, the world's biggest car enthusiast and I love EVs. For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars. They're smooth, quiet, and powerful and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it!
An electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
It's a shame EVs are not catching on, because they're really just better cars. I'd definitely pay a premium for an EV (and I have). I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
>>Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires.
Why would the tyres be more expensive? Something like ID.3 or MG4 use normal tyres no different than ones you'd put on your normal Fiesta, they aren't any more expensive. The increased tyre wear is a problem but only in that it's directly linked with how heavy your foot is, and EVs make it much easier to have a heavy foot as you don't get any typical downsides of heavy acceleration you'd get in a petrol/diesel car.
It's not just easier acceleration, EVs are also heavier. Between those two factors, it adds up to something like only 70-80% of the normal lifetime of standard ICE tires.
Like for like compared to the same model with an ICE drivetrain? Sure. But that doesn't mean that all EVs are heavy. Our Volkswagen e-Up is only 1200kg.
Volskwagen ID.3 is 1740kg which I suppose is heavy, but a Diesel Golf 8 is nearly 1500kg, so the weight difference isn't that massive. And something like a Nissan Qashqai is 1700kg in a diesel, so if you swapped that for a new ID.3 you haven't bought a heavier car at all.
200kg is not going to make any measurable difference in how long your tyres last. My other car, Volvo XC60 T8 is a PHEV and is 400kg(!!!!!!) heavier than the equivalent petrol-only model. Yet my first set of tyres lasted 30k miles - how much longer do people expect tyres to last?
Mine has a standard tire size. I just put on the winter set for the third season, and I’m pretty sure they’re going to last at least a season or two more. So, changing tires every 4-5 seasons? Exactly the same as I do for my ICE car.
I do imagine that the thin tires they put on BMW i3s would last less. But for most people getting an EV now I can’t see how increased tire wear would be a practical problem.
And I do drive dynamically, let’s say. It’s just too fun not too.
I don't see how oil changes is an EV selling point at all. Modern ICE cars ask for them every 7-10k miles. If I go to one of the extortionate places like Jiffy Lube it's still only $75 and half an hour of my time every year or two.
I’d just rather not do it at all. I also enjoy charging at work for free. We only pay to charge on road trips. It’s been a massive savings in fuel cost for us.
Most of my miles are done on long journeys. I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home. UK charging infrastructure seems pretty underdeveloped so far. My 2018 petrol car does 600 miles on a tank.
The upshot of all that is that an EV would give me half the range at twice the cost, and a headache every time I needed to charge it.
I really want EVs to get better, and I’m sure they will. But for now, they’re hugely inferior for me.
>>I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home
I'm still waiting to hear how the government plans to solve this or incentivize private investment for this setup to work. Because yeah, if you live in UK and don't have a private drive then I have no idea how you're using an electric car, unless you literally have a Tesla and live right next to a supercharger(I know one person with that setup and it works fine for them, it's literally one 20 minute stop a week and they get enough charge to last them a week).
>>Most of my miles are done on long journeys.
Funnily enough, for that use case you should be ok-ish, as most motorway stops in the UK are now equipped with rapid chargers, so if you're just driving up and down the country you should be able to just charge when you stop for a break, and with modern EVs easily doing 200+ miles per charge this really shouldn't be an issue.
The other thing is - you are an outlier if most of your driving is done on long journeys. Most people use their car to do a school run and commute to work, usually no more than 30-50 miles a day. If that's your setup(and you can charge at home), then EVs(and PHEVs to a large extent) are just a no brainer.
>>What happens if for whatever emergency I have drive 500 mi across the state, keep an ICE just in case?
Uhm, you either rent a car locally if that's an option, or in any modern EV realistically you'd drive for 250 miles, then do a 45 minute stop to recharge and then do the other 250 miles. It would end up being marginally slower than in a normal car.
Also depends on the emergency, right - at 500 miles that's at least 10 hours of driving, it can't be that urgent. If someone is literally dying you'd get there faster in a normal car, I suppose - but somehow I don't pick my cars based on some incredibly rare situation. If you regularly have to address "emergencies" 500 miles away then I guess yes, don't buy an EV.
500 mi is a 8 hours drive on a highway with light traffic, unless you are make-shift ambulance it sounds within reasonable limits of an urgency.
>I don't pick my cars based on some incredibly rare situation. If you regularly have to address "emergencies" 500 miles away then I guess yes, don't buy an EV.
Mr. Joe may also want to take his family for a summer trip, or attend some business at the capital city, it's not as unreasonable or rare as you think for the average person to account for the 1-2 times per year he might want or need to make a long distance trip when making their purchase.
>in any modern EV realistically you'd drive for 250 miles, then do a 45 minute stop to recharge
I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
> Mr. Joe may also want to take his family for a summer trip, or attend some business at the capital city, it's not as unreasonable or rare as you think for the average person to account for the 1-2 times per year he might want or need to make a long distance trip when making their purchase.
No, it is not unreasonable or rare to do two long-distance trips a year. But what holds true for an emergency that requires you to drive 800km holds also true for a leisure or business trip where you can plan a little more beforehand.
> I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
Of course not. You are looking at charging times for plugging in an extension cord from a household outlet (which in Europe is 220V AC at 16A, therefore ~3500W). It's like saying that refueling your 30t truck with a garden hose is taking really long. Well, duh!
The fast chargers you find on highways are usually DC chargers with varying specifications. IIRC, the smallest DC chargers you can find (at least in mainland Europe) are 500V at 125A, so ~62000W. These load your average car battery in less than an hour, IFF your car can do it (not all new ones can, so watch out). Really high-performance EV like Porsche Taycan or Tesla S can charge much faster, if the DC charger allows it. There are modells that go up to 240kW, which would charge a recent Tesla S with 100kWh battery in less than 30 minutes from empty to 100%.
>Mr. Joe may also want to take his family for a summer trip
This is goal post shifting, you said "emergencies". Vacation trips aren't emergencies. Tens of millions of us rent cars anyway for such trips since they involve flying.
>I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
Did you seriously just use 2.3kW emergency home wall plug as your number for a stop vs 77-400 kW DC chargers (which are what are actually found at stops)? Or even a proper 7-22kW home charger? The very first hits I saw on Google for charging an iD.3 [0, 1] both showed the correct range of options, and other cars (including Teslas) are capable of handling more power. I'm curious how you arrived at the idea that owners were all accepting 1-2 days for each charge of an EV.
Yes, 220V charging isn't practical if you are planning to continue driving. DC fast charging delivers power much more quickly. For instance, the Leaf will fast charge in 40-60 minutes:
I didn't look at what editions of the Leaf support DC charging, but it's safe to expect that new electric cars will almost all support it, and that it will get easier (in the sense of finding and paying for it).
I sometimes I have to do journeys that exceed the range of my EV. I break the journey and charge but I don't need to go to sleep while that's happening.
Personally I can't imagine an emergency where I need to travel 500 miles as fast as possible but I suppose I'd either fly, take a train, or rent an ICE car. I personally wouldn't invest in a dedicated emergency car because that would cost far more than the other three options.
I think a lot of Americans are a little paranoid sometimes! Obviously most of us have never needed to drive 500 miles on short notice, but you never know...
One scenario I could imagine is an evacuation for wildfires or hurricanes, but often there is plenty of warning with those events. Having one gas car topped off during hurricane season is probably good safety if you live on the Gulf coast.
For terrace houses it comes back to who owns the pavement and creating a compelling proposition for the customer and the EV charging provider
In the short term very thin flat cables are being tested. But this assumes you can park opposite your house.
Councils are happy to lease pavements to providers but it's not a lucrative proposition right now for 95% of UK streets, it's also victim to a negative feedback mechanism where home owners won't buy EVs because charging is hard which creates low demand
Councils can't solve it without investment, most likely it will solve itself when the majority of high income charging locations have been constructed. Most charging companies are operating on long-term investments leveraging debt. It's going to take years to solve, and that's without worrying about the grid infrastructure
Where I am in London there're 7.7kW chargers built into some lamposts. It's about 30-40p per kWh depending on when you start. There's also a couple of other providers with roadside chargers in random residential roads. I think they've got the scaling about right for the current demand but if everyone in the area had an electric car it wouldn't work.
I can go 290 miles at £0.016/mile when charging at home. At the (expensive) motorway services it's then £0.15/mile to rapid-charge. The unleaded at that services is £1.60/l so at 42 mpg (guess) it's about £0.17/mile. The EV version of my car is more expensive than petrol but it's not 2x. A petrol car is more expensive to run and fuel (in the UK, at least).
Thanks. Is that energy and delivery-of-energy combined for 7.5p/kWh? (Here we are charged separately for each of those tasks and, for me, the delivery of energy is over 59% of the total bill. Any alternate supplier is competing only for the supply of energy.)
When you're computing your total cost per mile to compare against petrol or against a commercial fast-charging alternative, it does come into the analysis (assuming it's a per-kWh cost rather than a per-month fee).
I pay the same fixed (daily) standing charge regardless of how much electricity I use. This is normal here. To include it in the calculations makes no sense.
We have competitive supply here. The charge for distribution is fixed with regard to which energy supplier you choose, but is not fixed with regard to energy consumption.
I asked, because if I chose Octopus supply, my energy supply price per kWh would vary according to the supplier but the price per kWh for distribution would not. (And Octopus would naturally only quote the price that they are charging for the part of the total picture that they're involved with.)
Being the total (excellent!) rate, I'm a little surprised that Octopus customers aren't running LiFePO4 battery banks to power their daytime usage from the nighttime tariff.
It will take some time to be more widespread, but I think this and small 7kW stations here and there (like the ones from Source London) charging will be the technical solution.
As for how this will be incentives, I don't expect to see much until ICE are banned. 65% to 75% of households in the UK have off-street parking, that's more than enough for charging providers to get established and have different types of cost effective chargers. Once ICE are banned, then there will probably be incentives to cover dead zones. Unfortunately, that's usually how it goes and people living there are usually getting things last, like for broadband, 5G.
If you're living in a terraced house with a front garden that is too small to put a drive in then you are probably living in a dense neighbourhood that can support frequent public transport. In cities like London, Newcastle, Liverpool or Glasgow that's already going to be a metro/subway/tube line. In one of the smaller neglected northern towns that could be a tram-train than can travel on street but achieve 80mph on a grade separated right of way to take you into the big city or to the major transport interchange or wherever. Just rent a car when you go on holiday, walk the kids to primary school and pick up your shopping on the way back from the station or get it delivered like it used to be in the old days. If everyone in that neighbourhood gets an electric car they are probably going to have to dig up all the streets to replace the ancient power cables to support the on-street charging which would cause even more chaos than putting in a tram. It would help solve the obesity epidemic with everyone walking a bit more and save the vehicles for people that need them like people who are mobility impaired, builders, etc.
>> probably living in a dense neighbourhood that can support frequent public transport.
Not always a thing. Plenty of "dense" neighbourhoods have less-than-ideal transport systems. Few of even the most dense run 24/7 bus/train service. Not everyone works a 9-5 job near a bus station. Im in a dense area, in an apparment building beside the largest hospital. Bus service doesn't start until 6am, meaning it isnt an option for my work. Nearest passenger train is hundreds of miles away.
> If you're living in a terraced house with a front garden that is too small to put a drive in then you are probably living in a dense neighbourhood that can support frequent public transport.
Pick a random terraced road in Bristol [1] or Birmingham [2] or London [3] or Norwich [4] and you'll find terraced house residents are not yet living without cars.
If our nation's goals require such people to live without cars, I would say we're a long way off - and we're not particularly moving in that direction either. Hell, the current government's plan for the next election is essentially the opposite.
This notion of "just rent a car" is so stupid and unrealistic. Most rental cars are kind of crap unless you spend a lot, which quickly eats up any savings. The agencies don't reliably honor reservations and don't always have the specific model that you wanted. Getting to and from the rental car agency is a huge hassle and time suck, and then you have to drive it back to your house to pick up the rest of the family and luggage. Who has time for that?
I can easily go much longer than an EV battery without needing a break.
A modern minivan can get myself, 3 passengers and all their luggage from the bay area to LA without even stopping for gas. In the event that we start without a full tank, the gas stop in middle adds 150 seconds to the trip.
This simply isn't possible yet with an EV. I expect it will maybe happen someday, but not yet.
As for putting the most miles on long trips:
Say I drive 10 miles a day to work and back, and I drive to LA only once a month. Hey presto, most of my driving miles are on the rare but long journey.
Yeah, but why do the miles count? So you need to stop for half an hour every 300 miles, is that such a big deal? You've still spent less time per month refueling your car.
Yeah, yet another bullshit EV post. I just Googled the distance between two unrealistic endpoints in SF & LA: Union Square (SF) and Union Station (LA). It is 380 miles. When they stop to use the toilet and stretch halfway, they can recharge in Central Valley. In 10 years of talking to "EV deniers / haters", nothing you can say will convince them. And, seriously, how often is the _general_ population driving 380 miles to between two major cities? Once or twice a year at max.
Yeah, I don't understand this article. Who doesn't want an electric? I drive around the city all the time, 100 miles once a month, more than 400 maybe once a year. The disadvantages affect me once a year, the advantages every day.
To me, an EV is a no-brainer, in fact I was test driving the Mercedes EV just yesterday. The only thing stopping me from getting one is that my ten-year-old car is still fine. Definitely not getting a new ICE, though.
Seriously. I live in a huge city and chargers are still so rare. Even when they put them in new construction parking garages, thats like six spots with a charger for the entire garage of a couple hundred other spots. If you don’t have your own charger I can’t imagine a single landlord fronting the 10k to install one. Even if the laws forced their hand with it, thats just going to be passed to the renter somehow and we are already quite rent burdened here on average.
>>can’t imagine a single landlord fronting the 10k to install one
I don't know where you got this number from - a new 7.2kW charger is £400, and I'm sure you can get it cheaper if you buy several hundred of them. They are hardly expensive devices now. Yes there's the cost of installation too - but 10k is an extremely unreasonable number.
I don't want an EV. Not because of a disinclination to have an electric car -- in theory, it would be fine. But I can't charge at home and all of the EVs I see on the market have at least one showstopper about them.
I, for one. Even though I live in a house with a driveway where I charge my PHEV, I had driven it too many times with zero charge to be wanting to get a non-hybrid electric car. While some of these times might not have happened with a bigger battery, many still would: having construction taking over the driveway and unable to charge, staying in a hotel and unable to charge, the city losing power and unable to charge would have happened with a bigger battery too.
When I get old, I can buy an EV of the future. It will for sure have better range and faster charging that what's on the market now.
Most busy corridors like sf-LA have the well known charge stations full and backed up making the delay multiple times longer.
The point about stopping wherever is that my stops won't have to be near any out of the way chargers. Of course an EV can stop wherever, but it also requires a pilgramage to somewhere I never wanted to go.
> I don't need to stop and stretch. I'm a healthy young person.
Don't do it and health problems could quickly appear. Like back pain, herniated discs, at the very least. Not to mention the risk of drowsiness induced car accidents.
I don'l like to refuel in a busy gas station either, but stopping and stretching is recommended.
You really can't hold it for 6 hours? Especially if you go before you start?
And let's say we do make bathroom stops (kids or whatever); why should the needs of the car dictate when and for how long we stop?
When I was a kid my dad would threaten to leave us behind if we took over 10 minutes dragging out a bathroom stop. I don't see any reason to tolerate a car that takes twice that long to recharge.
On a recent trip I did pull over for a bathroom stop at a gas station. The prices were too high (understandable, only option for many miles) so I didn't buy any gas. In and out, no time lost.
Sometimes I need to be there on time. Other times I can set a leisurely pace.
At no time do I want to park in the back of an economically depressed store to sit in my car for 20 minutes watching a crack head defecate in the next parking stall over. If I have time to stop, I want to stop at scenic overlooks and the like.
Look, all I'm saying is when EV charging (or battery swap, or whatever) gets to the turn around time of a gas station I'll be all over it.
Unless I'm dehydrated, no, I generally have to piss more often than every 6 hours, and it's unreasonable to ask a passenger to hold it that long unless they specifically say that can.
People around me have started running cabled from the house over the pavement, protected by those anti-trip mats, when charging. So far the council haven't taken any action against them. Not sure it's a long-term practical solution though, what with safety, vandalism and no guarantees that you can get a parking space outside your house.
Perhaps mandated 50% charging places in every supermarket carpark?
> if you live in UK and don't have a private drive then I have no idea how you're using an electric car
I have a friend in this situation. He charges it at other places, although the council are apparently going to dig a small trench in the pavement (free of charge) to allow him to run a charging cable from his house to the car without disrupting foot traffic.
But that's still contingent on being able to park right outside his house, which is a rare luxury.
It will be very easy in the longterm: Charging at work, at the super market, publicly etc.
Supercharging in itself is easy enough too.
My EV has a big battery (given) but im charging publicly for nearly 2 years but my company already plans charging stations next year and other locations of my company already have them.
QuickTrip (gas stations) around me have 2+ chargers.
Gas stations will need to have chargers to stay in business (and electrification will impact their business); With 5% electrification, gas stations have already lost ~5% of their business, if they can recoup 2% from people without high speed charging at home or for road trips, they can make up in margins (especially as a 20 min charge up is more likely to get a user in store than a 5 minute fill up)
Grocery chains, working locations, state parks, county parks have been incentivized to put chargers. So have local shopping centers.
It's one of those things where you need govt funded ev charging infrastructure. Once people are at ease about always being able to charge, this might improve.
It's very confusing how consent is super important everywhere but immediately put aside when it comes to government. Could we not do consent and government at the same time?
Possible but it would be highly inconvenient and people wouldn't like the consequences. At the very least we need referendums on all the big contentious issues.
> It's one of those things where you need govt funded ev charging infrastructure.
The petroleum industry did just fine without government funding the building of gas stations. It took over 10 years from the introduction of the model T until gasoline outsold kerosene in this country. Not the best metric to compare against, just saying that these things take time.
The mainstreaming of EVs is coming. It's just taking more time than early adopters would like. Part of the problem is that many early adopters assumed that their EVs we're shiny and perfect like their Apple products, etc. So there's frustration that things aren't as glossy and simple as they'd like.
The market is working correctly. Demand for EVs isn't there. Give it time. Maybe a decade or two. And most cars will be EVs.
The elephant in the room is a gas station operates nothing like what is required for fast charging. Gas station is like 2 minutes of your time then the next customer pulls in after you. Chargers demand longer periods of time. More space is therefore required to charge the same number of cars fueled by a gas station.
But I don't want to fund EV charger infrastructure. I want better public transport and hydrogen/methanol fuel for those few cases a car is absolutely needed.
This. EVs are still cars. They still move ten times more mass than what is actually required to get Mr Boomer to his job and back. They're still extremely inefficient transport solutions for anything but vacations. They still cause trafic congestion just as bad as old cars do.
> hydrogen/methanol fuel for those few cases a car is absolutely needed.
Is this because you actively want cars to be less efficient/more expensive/more cumborsome to use and maintain?
Which is a valid viewpoint, but your comment could be read as suggesting that this is somehow greener or cheaper tor simpler than BEVs, which it isn't.
For example, I'm assuming that the "better public transport" you envision is electric, and battery electric wherever that makes sense (which is in quite a lot of places, even trams with overhead lines in busy cities can benefit from batteries).
I just meant they're refillable and fuel stations historically did fine without public funding. Conversion is pretty easy, if I'm not mistaken cars in Brazil are already prepared for methanol. Toyota recently made a hydrogen kit for AE86 that's almost like an LPG kit. A few years down the line and it'll just work. I'm not saying that there's no place for electric, I just don't want cars in cities. Whatever Netherlands are doing, I want that instead of financing and maintaining a charger network.
Wouldn’t it also make sense to have a government owned car company to go with this infrastructure? If private companies aren’t willing to aggressively change their fleets to EV this is where the government needs to step in. I’d see it as another version of public transportation.
Yeah - there are many use cases still where EVs are way worse or even totally inadequate. Yours is one. Cold countries is another (sorry Canadians... don't buy Teslas just yet...). EV performance is horrific in cold conditions.
But the majority of use cases at this point is - EVs are way better. City driving, less than 100 miles per day, which is what most people do in most countries, charge at home, etc.
The nice thing about fuel cars is you almost never need to think about range beyond the refueling visit to a gas station once every week or two. If you're going on an extended road trip, you know you could skip a dozen gas stations and still be fine.
I drove an EV before alongside a fuel car, and I constantly considered whether the bloody thing had enough range for the day or journey. The constant mental load, light as it was, is something I don't have to deal with driving fuel cars. Having ease of mind is priceless.
Strange, I’ve been driving EVs for seven years and I have just as much ease of mind as you claim to about gas cars.
Maybe it has more to do with how much you need to drive each day?
If you’re putting in triple digits of miles every day, then you have a very different set of constraints compared to someone commuting up to 40 miles a day, which is the United States average.
I have the opposite. Some of my kids activities are almost 50 miles away. I have to think about whether there's enough gas in the gasoline car to get there and back. If not, we have to leave 10 minutes early, and that means you have to yell at the kids to hurry up, et cetera. Or when driving home you always have to ask yourself "do I need to fill up or not"?
OTOH, if the EV is at home, it's plugged in and is always sitting at 80% full. No load.
> The nice thing about fuel cars is you almost never need to think about range beyond the refueling visit to a gas station once every week or two.
If that's your frequency of gas fillups, and you have a garage charger, the same is true for an EV. (If you lived in an apartment where you couldn't plug in regularly, perhaps not.)
Here's the thing: I rarely ended the day on an empty tank. I always ended the day on an empty battery.
So there I was, constantly considering whether the bloody thing had enough range for the day. It's a worry I can do without, and so batteries will need to see exponential improvements before I'll consider one over a good old fuel tank and an engine.
This doesn't make sense to me. Average gasoline-powered car has 300-400 miles range, and you're filling up once every week or two? That implies an EV range of something like 80 miles?
Norway is rich. If electric cars weren't suited for Norwegian conditions, many Norwegians can and would buy gasoline cars instead. EV's sell well in Norway because they're both good enough and cheaper. If only one of those two conditions held they wouldn't sell well.
The bar for "good enough" is artificially lower in Norway when it comes to EVs. I'm not sure if you're aware just how huge the subsides are for EVs in Norway. They are trying to reduce these a bit and I'll be interested to see how that affects purchasing patterns. You're exempted from a punishing 25% VAT that gas cars are subject to first and foremost. Also, electricity is very cheap in Norway due to their abundance of hydropower.
I've got relatives in Norway and Denmark. All the ones in my generation can afford gasoline cars even though they cost ~twice as much. They would drive gasoline cars if electric cars sucked. They don't.
Electric cars would have to suck pretty bad for someone to spend twice as much, I'm not sure that anecdote is saying what you seem to think it is.
They might be saying "In an ideal world I'd drive a gas car, but the electric car is good enough where I'd rather not pay double." I don't think the person I was responding to was saying they "sucked", just that they had drawbacks.
Their tax and energy policy dictates what cars their population can drive. That 87 percent of Norwegians drive EVs really says nothing about the quality of ownership experience. Many could be annoyed by forced EV adoption in cold weather.
If anyone knows about it, I'd be interested to explore this further.
My understanding is that in some parts of Canada it's common to plug your currently petrol/diesel car into an electricity socket overnight to provide a low-level of heating (otherwise the car would be impossible to start in the morning) - is this level of heating insufficient for an EV?
Alternatively how much electricity would be wasted spending some power to keep batteries at a warm enough temperature to prevent performance degradation when charging? Are we talking a few percent or a double/tripling of power costs?
The problem is not keep the battery warm while parked, it's keeping the battery warm while driving. Most EVs can "preheat" themselves before you start in the morning, the smart one's might even learn the patterns and be ready when you get in at 07:30 every day.
The problem is that driving EVs in the cold costs a lot more energy. I've got a Ford Mustang Mach E for about 2.5 years now. In the winter the range that Ford claims drops by about 30 to 35%. That is a lot of range that goes missing just because the temp drops below 5 degrees Celsius.
Luckily I'm the perfect EV candidate: my daily commute is less than 50% of the total range so I can drive 2 days to the office if needed. And I can charge both at home and at the office.
The main problem that I see is that people cannot charge at home. If you are dependent on fast chargers by the side of the road you are going to have a hard time. The downtime for fast-chargers is enormous: my personal guess would be that they do not reach the 90% uptime. Which is bizar problem to have because a fast-charger and remote monitoring of the charger condition should be a solved problem by now.
> The problem is that driving EVs in the cold costs a lot more energy. I've got a Ford Mustang Mach E
Nowadays this problem is mostly just the Mach E.
The Mach E delivers heat in the most inefficient way possible: resistive heat[0]. Modern EVs from other manufacturers use heat pumps, which are much more efficient. There's still some drop in winter range (like gas cars), but it's nowhere near 35% anymore.[1]
Ford's system is also Rube Goldberg[2]: they use a water-based PTC heater to warm a small isolated coolant loop (complete with its own separate reservoir!), and then run a pump to send it through a liquid-to-air heater core. Obviously done for commonality with an ICE heater core, but the unnecessary weight and complexity shows the compromises to shoehorn an electric drivetrain into a ICE (or even "flex") platform.
Your comment is more about the 'passive' heating to keep some bare minimum for the hardware to function, but a big part is the 'active' heating for the driver and passengers.
If we look at the total energy consumption for driving in cold conditions, then moving the vehicle along the road needs in the ballpark a similar amount of energy as what is required to heat up the interior of the car to a reasonable temperature and keep it there - cars aren't (and probably can't be) as insulated as houses, so they need quite a lot of energy to stay so much warmer than the outside.
In an ICE, most that heating is done from waste heat of the engine. In an EV, that comes directly out of your range.
Some cars do have additional resistive heating or heat pumping through AC, where that is technically driven by engine power, but not from the waste heat.
> Also don't forget that seat heaters are also resistive and most cars in cold climates have them.
I know it (or more like my bum) too damn well, though I didn't think about them in this case.
> small diesels like VW Polo
Makes sense, though as I understood, it's strictly auxiliary till the engine is heated aaaand maybe some additional heating at the parking lot with the engine turned off, though I would wary of this usage, it would drain even the extended battery fast.
Overall it's not quite what I had in my mind (think of space heaters), though yes, there are some parts which can operate independently from the engine, though it's not a primary function for them.
In any case, the key point is that in an ICE car the heating is mostly "free" since the engine has perhaps 40% efficiency and the majority of heat released by combustion is unused/unusable waste heat that might as well be used to heat up the car if you need to, but in an EV you don't have that source of free waste heat to tap into, and you have to use the energy that you could have used for moving the car instead.
Yes in our experience, a 120V outlet is sufficient to keep the EV battery warm when the outside temperature is -30C. However, that's all it can do; it won't add any appreciable charge to the battery while it is doing so.
>My understanding is that in some parts of Canada it's common to plug your currently petrol/diesel car into an electricity socket overnight to provide a low-level of heating
Kind of. Block heaters help warm the engine coolant which warms engine and the oil, making it less viscous and help it flow properly so that the battery doesn't need to work as hard to crank the engine. They're typically only 400w to 600w draw.
Modern full synthetic oil and a well maintained AGM battery makes it less necessary, it's just a little less wear on the engine overall over the long term. Most folks though don't spring for either since they're a bit more expensive then mineral oil and flooded lead acid batteries.
Im in a similar boat. I dont own my own house, and likely never will. There are no commercial chargers anywhere near me, and those far away are not cheap. My climate (-30/40 in winter) is not ideal for batteries. And my drives, other than to work each day, are generally longer (nearest costco is 200miles). I dont see EVs as a practical option, not for a decade or more.
Similar in some parts of Germany. My partner currently lives in the "standard" house setup - multiple apartments in a purpose built building, several buildings grouped together. There's a road about 60 metres away, on street parking, and there's always more cars than spaces. No way to do EV charging unless the local council equivalent did something to lay in charging points - but there's not really any official parking bays either, it's just "squeeze in where you can".
A lot of city infra just isn't set up for at-home charging in older cities, and it's a non-trivial retrofit.
The answer to this is local regulations that force landlords to build EV charging on demand. The city can also provide rebates to the landlords. If the world is serious about EVs, we need to be serious about expanding the necessary infra.
The council have started doing just that in parts of the UK. It’s quite easy to do because streets already have electrical supply. And a charger is pretty simple if you don’t need it to be a fast charger.
I'll readily admit to not having a fantastic grasp of UK geography, but it seems like a typical EV's range (and your car's tank) can already take you a significant portion of the length of your country. If most of your miles are on long journeys, then surely you're more likely to encounter some of the UK's charging infrastructure along the way, right?
I still marvel that my pretty basic Kia Niro EV provides the quiet, smoothness and smooth power delivery that Rolls Royce has been trying to get out of their v12s for decades. And it gets it without even trying, it's just how electric motors are.
Yep, I have a Volvo PHEV and in EV mode it is smoother, quieter and just more luxurious experience than a Range Rover V8 that I used to have(and that was like pinnacle of luxury at the time).
Kia, Hyundai (same company I think) are well situated. As are BMW, Mercedes, and obviously Tesla.
But... Toyota? Nowhere to be seen, has some also-ran EVs in production. The old American carmakers - absent. VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing.
The biggest carmakers in the world have a vested interest in keeping EVs off the market for as long as possible.
> VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing.
Well I think they're the third EV manufacturer in the world for 2023. BYD is first (I guess mostly in China), Tesla second and Stellantis (Peugeot, Fiat and some American brands I think) fourth.
Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes (didn't even know they made EVs but apparently they do) Toyota and the other brands I'm reading about in these comments are all much further down the charts, so I'm not sure what to think.
Maybe the American market is so different that most commenters here have a warped view of the actual EV market in the rest of the world
BMW and Mercedes don't actually manufacture a lot of cars compared to other manufacturers. They go for margin rather than volume...
Total deliveries in 2022 (incomplete obviously, there are many other manufacturers): Toyota (10,483,024, including Daihatsu), Volkswagen Group (8,262,776), Stellantis (4,488,269), Hyundai (3,944,579), BMW (2,399,630), Mercedes (2,043,900), Tesla (1,313,851).
Actual deliveries of BEVs in 2022: Volkswagen Group (572,110) followed by BMW (215,755) followed by Mercedes (117,800). So VW actually shipped more BEVs than BMW and Mercedes combined...
At €45k you're far from "basic" imho. Not so long ago you were into the premium car category at that price in Europe. In 2010 you could buy a new bmw 335i for that price... or in 2012 two new basic (for real this time) peugeot 308
This is starting to feel like another topic altogether. My original point is the Niro is not a luxury vehicle. It's really just a very average/typical vehicle they slapped an electric motor into. And roughly costing us about the same as a Honda Accord after the tax credit supports that. For as long as I can remember, the Accord was considered a "typical family car", at least in the US. Us being in late stage capitalism and suffering from massive inflation and income inequality is not really relevant to my point.
> I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively.
Marketshare growth is excellent.
Car manufacturers and government regulators bet the farm on mass EV adoption.
Current EVs and EV infrastructure haven't solved the range anxiety/charging issue yet. Suburban US, where most people own a garage, is an outlier.
Waiting 10-15 years for prolific street-level infrastructure to be built out doesn't solve the fact that there are unsold EVs on dealer lots today.
Of course, there are plenty of use cases where range anxiety simply isn't relevant. Ditto why marketshare is still growing and will likely continue to grow.
The economy market currently appears to favor EVs for comfort, depending on whether weather is a factor where you live. This isn't saying very much, and an incorrect consumer focus is possibly the reason these manufacturers are having the difficulties they are.
I think the driving feel of toyota hybrid is actually closest to ev of ice cars, because of the smooth and gearless starting and stopping it does with its integrated electric motor. The change to ice on higher speed is also usually seamless. This being true in normal family car speeds. It lacks the acceleration of course.
The better tech always wins in the end. It's a no-brainer.
The problem with resistance of the existing auto industry is that if everyone buys EVs the big American carmakers go out of business. GM, Ford, etc have nothing, no technology to compete, their EVs are still crap, they are unable to catch up. So are many Japanese carmakers also BTW.
I was recently in Hong Kong - a good 50% of cars there are EVs thanks to tax breaks - no taxes on EVs while other cars are heavily taxed, so that makes even high end EVs cheaper than mid range gas cars. I think I tried every single model EV using Uber, Mercedes, BMW, and Tesla primarily, they're all really great EVs, great cars, great range, great comfort, obviously insane acceleration. Just better cars.
There's also a range of Chinese EVs coming up - didn't test I guess they are too rare to show up on Uber.
American carmakers then spread all sorts of FUD about EVs such that my facebook feed is full of people who really believe EVs are worse for the environment than their exploding mineral oil machines. They hold back all development through propaganda, lawmaking, political influence, anything and everything they can do - because they can easily act like a mafia. They can't easily compete with the good EVs of the world. Or at all.
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
I'd buy a used $5k piece of shit over that any day. I'm as interested in cars as I am in hammers, as long as it gets me from a to b I absolutely don't give a shit.
$30k is like 5+ years of saving for a lot of people, even in the west. That's a lot of money for a liability.
For the price of a modern EV you can buy a flat in many region of the developed world too...
All I'm saying is that when the HN crowd talk about "cheap" cars for the vast majority of people it's deep into the "will never be able to afford" price category.
Even the shittiest EV you can get from Dacia is above most people budget, it does o-60mph in like 20 seconds and can't go faster than ~75mph
In the US, loans are commonly used to amortize costs over a period of time, allowing people to buy things even when they do not have the cash to pay the purchase price.
Is this something I'm supposed to look at with envy ? My grand parents didn't have to get a loan to buy a basic cars, my parent neither, they were far from rich.
But alas, now people get into debt for TVs and smartphones, so what do I know, I must be a boomer!
You can earn 5%+ risk free now, so borrowing at 5% to 7% to buy a car is just good business. There is no early repayment penalty, so at the least, you get to keep access to liquid funds for a negligible cost, or you can invest your money to earn a better return elsewhere.
Sure, but doing those sorts of balances are more hassle and pain than they tend to be worth to me (and it still involves risk). Others who don't find such things unpleasant certainly have a different result in their cost/benefit calculations.
If you're comparing to paying cash for a purchase you were going to make anyway. If you're comparing borrowing at a break-even rate to buy a new car vs paying cash for a lightly used car, borrowing is not what I'd describe as good business.
You can get some pretty great interest rates on auto loans at certain times, due to promotions or unusually low fed rates. I could have bought my car with cash but happily took a loan with a sub 2.5% interest rate.
Aside from low rates though I agree that there's not much point in getting a loan if you're able to comfortabely buy the car with cash, although many/most car buyers don't have that kind of financial flexibility.
EVs are still relatively new, the idea of a budget version is a good sign even if it's still some way off mass appeal. Although if you look at what low-end new cars cost these days, it's actually not a lot more for the Dacia Spring and you might be able to break even pretty quick once you factor running costs in.
There's literally nowhere I can legally drive at 75mph. I'm glad EVs are being more sensible about top speeds. My 40 minute daily commute has a top speed of 70mph and an average of just under 20! That's the reality of urban speed limits and heavy traffic where something like the Dacia might fit well. But I agree, it is under-powered and won't be a fun drive carrying even one person, let alone carrying five. The next generation should be more interesting.
Tbh, that is exactly my situation. I have a 3rd or 4th hand Ford from 2007 or so that I got for $2k about two years ago. It is parked in my garage and I seldom use it. I bike to work, I use public transport whenever I can.
I would buy an EV, I love those things. But between fitting a charger in the garage and getting a reasonably priced 2nd hand EV I would have to expend like $20+k. Which is much MUCH more than what I would save up in fuel through its lifespan. Not really happening unless I get some help from the government to purchase an EV and my town hall puts up some chargers near.
I have an old Nissan leaf that I bought for $5k and it gets about 60 miles per charge from the driveway.
You solution is ideal and I don’t think you should change a thing. I’d love to see more personal car sharing, both electric and gas. Electric cars with a range over 200 is a big waste of battery that should go towards something else, like a bicycle.
Even my old car is the equivalent of 50 electric bicycles.
If your price tolerance is $5k and you are as interested in cars as you are in hammers, you're not the customer they are chasing right now. In the US folks are spending $48,000(!) on average on a new car. I'm not saying that's financially sound, but that's the price point where they need to make EVs compelling right now. I do believe EV tech will rapidly drive the price for cars down and the reliability of those cars up. So someday I think a used EV will be your no-fuss $5k purchase. We're just not there yet.
> ...and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it!
If you have a home charging station. This immediately excludes a - very - large number of people in the EU and metropolitan US who live in multifamily housing or older towns and cities.
> an electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
What are we comparing? A Tesla Model 3 against most non-premium cars? Of course. An MG5 EV/Roewe EI5 against a BMW B48 or a Honda K20C1? Questionable.
Let's not forget that there are plenty of fuel efficient 6 cylinder mild hybrid platforms that, quite frankly, compete very well with premium EVs. Range anxiety aside, are they necessarily better? Again, questionable, but the overall package that comes with an M340d or an A6 55TFSI is better than the equivalent Model 3/S (or even, imo, any of BMW or Audi's EVs).
> Climate change is a species-ending threat. Emissions caused by fossil fuels is a huge piece of that.
It's not a species-ending threat (at least, to humans). That said, the realistic outlook for global warming is bad enough.
EV is a technology in transition. It will get there. It's getting there. It's not "there" yet for every use case.
Why? A large part isn't because of the technology, it's about population density. The countries that pollute the most also happen to have sub-par public transportation networks. Range anxiety isn't an issue when the default option for most people is light rail.
The solution is likely going to come down to:
1. Urban planning. Car friendly zoning, building codes, minimum parking requirements, and other regulations are starting be reversed in the US. It's already happened across most of the EU.
2. Switch to low emissions electricity generation. Power plants are still the leading emitter, full stop.
3. EV adoption. My point above wasn't an argument against EVs as a technology, but a statement of fact that - as a technology in transition - it's not superior for all major use cases. This should change over the next couple of decades.
In Canada heating is the leading emitter. And even if power is the leading emitter in the OP's region, power plants are lowering their carbon output far faster than any other source.
Coal -> Natural Gas is still the leading source of emissions reduction, but that transition is nearing its completion. The shift to solar/wind is what will continue the transition.
It is species-ending, but not for humans. And human-made climate change is far behind direct over-exploitation and habitat destruction due to sprawl and agriculture in terms of what things are actually killing species.
Because of modern consumerism, something that convincing everyone to replace one working car for a newly constructed one doesn’t solve. Quite the opposite really.
From a CO2 standpoint, replacing an ICEV with an EV is a net positive. There are some super efficient ICEVs like a Prius where that might be a more equal trade but for most other ICEVs it really is worth doing.
My read is that the sweet spot price for EV mass adoption is $15k with about just enough range to manage. Like a 200 mile range with extremely fast charging. A smaller battery that can charge in like 5-7 mins. The car can be a bit smaller, 0-60 in 6 or 7 seconds should be good enough.
What this implies is that there needs a greater density of charging stations - which Tesla is anyway working on this. So in a Tesla super charger, if I can charge to 80% in 5 mins and get 150-160 mile range am good. Even if I don’t have a garage at home, this should work with appropriate alerting, routing etc.
An electric car for the non-enthusiasts, for those who just need a car to get stuff done.
> For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars.
The core issue is that it's not the case for most people. If you can afford an EV, have a house with a garage where you can plug in the car - you're basically a corner case.
The reality for most people in Europe: car should cost 5 - 10k EUR (used), 10 - 20k new, it'll be parked on the street and need to be practical both for driving in a city as well as for longer trips.
We're still pretty far away from any of these goals. I imagine something like Skoda Enyaq, with 800 km - 1000 km of range, for 25 - 30'000 EUR max, with tax included (an equivalent to VW Golf Variant).
Unless there's been some EU-wide massive secret project to construct underground parkings under most existing buildings that I'm not aware of, then yeah, most. We don't really have US style suburbs, rural areas are a rounding error for this calculation, so that leaves us with urban areas. Garages in apartment buildings are a luxury, only some new developments have underground parking, so most cars stay either on building-adjacent open-air parking zones, or are parked on the street.
A claim which is very easy to gather information for.
Just open google maps, satellite view, and look into any major European city. Given the known ~70% urbanisation of the EU, it seems feasible. From my own, anecdotal experience, I would say way more than most cars are parked outside. Most of the times a block away. Some annoying times, much farther.
The data is unfortunately not granular enough. It combines "reserved spots" and garages. A reserved spot could be an open parking lot with an assigned number. It doesn't help with the charging at all.
I'd guesstimate that the cars parked "american style" (in a private garage or on the driveway of the house) in Europe is < 10%. You really need to live in a small town or a village to find these setups.
Absolutely yes. Unless you live in a single-family house (which in the circle of my friends it'd be just one couple), or you live in one of the newest apartment blocks, you're definitely keeping your car on the street or on a parking lot in front of your building.
I can see a lot of articles / comments on various portals where the authors are explaining how easy is to use EVs - you charge it in your own garage over night and then drive to office or to do groceries. I can't overstate how unusual use-case it is.
Most people where I live (Switzerland) would never consider using a car to get to work. We walk / cycle / take a bus, tram or train. Same with groceries. The cars are on the street, you use it maybe once every week or two, to go skiing, move something large or go for a longer trip. Average yearly distance per car is ~13'000 km (~8'000 miles). Using an EV is really a huge huge hassle.
I don't think most people care. However, EVs still tend to mid-range or higher prices, and still don't have much of a used market at reasonable prices. You can judge preferences better when a run of the mill EV can be had in running condition for a reasonable used price (5-10k)
The EV market is in a strange spot. Tesla knows how to make an amazing battery electric powertrain & software experience but struggles to make the rest of the car. (I rented a low-end ICE Mazda and the interior build quality was sooo much better than our Tesla. A few generations beyond.)
Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. The initial offerings from Toyota & Mazda have been terrible. I am surprised that the Ford Lightning hasn't done better. It's a great truck, that can't seem to compete with itself (cheaper gasoline versions). I'll be curious to see how the electric Escalade does. That thing looks incredible and I think is the right brand / market for a premium SUV.
That is your perspective driving like shit. A lot of people I know still uses the manual gearbox to give them the "car feel". Some dknt even want power steering because they like to wrestle with the car during turn.
Good luck finding a Toyota hybrid, it's shocking just how little inventory they have. I absolutely love my plug in hybrid - but they are just so hard to actually purchase right now, and the economics don't make sense when you have dealers selling them at a huge markup.
I would love to own an EV, but even as a well-to-do middle income, they're just.so.expensive right now!
And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-(
I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner.
They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.
Tesla model 3 is 54k CAD officially. I've heard rumours of people being able to buy it that price but never met an actual person or even heard of a cousins best friend who did. Cheapest anybody has been able to get it that I'm aware of is 60ish K CAD, plus usual stuff (taxes delivery etc).
That's... A lot of money for a car.
We just bought a nice 5 door hatchback for 19kcad (25k cad all in) . It's not a comparable car on any granular metric, but it's a car! It takes me places! At literally one Third the price.
If I want to go for fun, I can get a wrx for 35k or gti for 40. If I want a practical car I can get a minivan for 40k or any number of (ugh) SUVs.
Tesla 3 on the other hand is a luxury, not a practical choice. It'll never ever ever pay off on cost/economy basis. And that's ok! Luxury cars exist and are great,for those who want and can afford them. It may be fun and enjoyable and status symbol, but it's the Apple of cars. Some people are into it while many of us balk at the value proposition (or perceived lack thereof).
So yes - it's just. So. Expensive! For me at least, when I look at other options and alternatives :).
edit/addition: Same is the case for most other EVs. Nissan Leaf starts at 42k CAD, Mazda 3 starts at 24k CAD. Ioniq 5 starts at 51K CAD, VW Taos starts at 30k.
Basically, EVs are $12k - $25k more than ICE cars, where I'm at. And $12K is a lot of money! That's how much whole cars used to cost as recently as 3 years ago (and you can still get a brand new car for $15k though you probably shouldn't:). Again, it's a bit of HN bubble, or possibly California special circumstances, where Tesla can even begin to be discussed as an affordable :-/
* We have a Honda Odyssey as the primary family vehicle for ourselves and our kids. It's a very nice, very practical, very large car. As a family car travelling with kids, we love it! You do feel a little ridiculous if you're driving somewhere as a lone driver though. Did I mention it's big?? :-)
* I work from home and my wife had a hybrid job so we got away with Minivan as the primary car, occasionally supported by my 20yo Subaru WRX
* However, our occasional second car is increasingly a rustbucket, as as my wife needs to go to work physically more, the 20yo WRX (manual gear etc) is less and less a viable option for us
* We bought a used car this summer, safetied, from people we are kinda-sorta connected through our network, and ended up being completely fleeced. After several mechanics review ended up writing off the entire car. Between that and other people's experiences and long searches, we are completely soured on used car market right now, at least here in Ontario, in terms of prices and reliability. It's insane.
* We need a cheap basic car for work commute and situations when we need to do two things at once. We are still paying monthly financing on the Oddyssey so our budget is limited. We don't necessarily need it to last forever but we need it to be basic and largely reliable and comfortable for next 5-8 years.
* We looked at Mitsubishi Mirage, which is currently the cheapest new car in Canada, but it had too many tradeoffs
* Kia Rio LX+ is the second cheapest car in Canada but is a significant step up. It drives fine, looks fine, comfortable, visibility is good (shockingly a rarity these days), roomy enough (I'm 189cm / 6'2"), has A/C and Carplay/Android Auto etc. Honestly not missing ANYthing I need for a basic, practical car.
* Massive bonus: great, great control scheme. I love the control scheme of Hyundai & Kia last few years. Reasonable buttons in reasonable places, reasonably well found without looking for them. SO MANY modern cars sacrifice usability for some perceived fashion/looks, and it's a massive turn off. Kia's controls are like a Nikon DSLR - sure they're somewhat "old fashioned", but they're based on all the usability lessons learned we have at our disposal. It works and works well. Thus endeth the sermon :->
* FWIW, In Canada at least, the availability of cars I personally like is dwindling. Manufacturers are doubling down on the large SUVs (ugh!), and subcompact hatchbacks (Mazda 2, Ford Fiesta etc) are completely disappearing. I understand it's even the last year for the Kia Rio, and I can't seem to find regular Golf/Rabbit (only GTI/R) either.
Depending on if your Hyundai 5-door is the Accent or Elantra GT, you might find the current Rio a very natural replacement :)
The other car we looked at is the Subaru Impreza or RS; that's the car we would've liked to get, especially given my old WRX, but given our usage patterns, paying $10k more was not a good value for us at this time.
I just priced out a base Model 3. No options whatsoever. The price—including Federal, State, and utility subsidies—is $34,185.
I included sales tax. Without that it's still $30,630, but I don't think it's fair to include government subsidies but exclude government taxes when determining the effective cost of the car.
I’ve done multiple test drives of the model 3 performance and now own a Model Y. Everything below is my opinion and sample size of one… etc.
The model 3 is a great handling car - closest compare is a 2012ish BMW 335xi. It’s heavier and you can feel it in turns, but you can feel the low center of gravity, and the grip/acceleration curve compensates it out. For street use the tires grip and the car overall overpowers its weight. The suspension is good, really reminding me of the BMW. Note suspension is tuned like a BMW with surprisingly similar dampening but overall is not as mature as the 335xi was - on super bumpy roads the tires will stay in contact with the ground but you will feel the difference. The model 3 not going to be close to a Miata, but in its size class it’s a great time. I would totally buy one, and almost did; it always puts a smile on my face.
The model Y is not nearly as maneuverable, but the low center of gravity really helps in turns. It’s better than I expected from a CUV/SUV. Not in the same league as the model 3.
Tesla is really good about test drives - I’d highly recommend it. Even if you never buy one, it’s a solid experience.
Why is the Model 3 suspension so bad? I haven't driven one but I've ridden in several and the ride quality is way worse than ICE vehicles in a similar price range. Am I missing something or are the Tesla engineers just incompetent?
Depends which model you're in - I have the performance version which has stiffer suspension and makes for a less comfortable ride. My friends has a new LR model that is noticeably smoother.
Those are definitely not sporty cars, you can add the Ioniq 5 to that list.
Model 3, NIO, BYD, and to some extent VW and even the i3 or Zoe have much nicer handling. Their low center of gravity and perfect 50/50 weight distribution should actually give you more grip and stability than the equivalent gas burner.
Right, but as per my parallel post, now we're comparing potatoes to kitchen sinks.
The original post did not specify the EV they spoke about, and I disagreed with generic comment that "ICE drives like shit, EV drives awesome!".
This is not to claim EVs don't exist that handle well! "Sporty EVs exist" can be taken as a given I think. But so do ICE! :)
It has not been my personal experience that moderately priced EV (not "cheap EVs", as such a thing doesn't exist here in Canada), are particularly well handling for their class, for all the other pros and cons that they may have.
My RAV4 Prime gets 50 miles to the charge and has a gas tank for everything else.
FFS if it got 100 miles to the charge it would be the perfect EV for most daily driver scenarios.
Also, the number of people who can’t charge in their own yard or driveway or garage is significant. I would never, ever drive am EV without my own plug at home.
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
I'm absolutely happy with my plug-in Prius. I have a short commute, and it gets me to work and back on a single charge. Every now and then when I need to go for a longer drive, I'll switch to gas which has a range of hundreds of miles. I charge it at home and I fill the tank about three or four times a year.
The car definitely drives differently in the two modes. It's no Tesla, but electric acceleration is much more responsive and faster than a traditional sedan, like a Corolla or a Civic. Driving in gas mode feels like driving a Prius.
If it fits your needs, I recommend looking into plug-in hybrids. But I'm no car enthusiast. My car is functional, not a status symbol.
I'd love an EV but I've got 3 kids in car seats. As far as I know, only Rivian is making something that would work for our needs and I'm not paying $85,000 for it.
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
Modern Hybrids (not Priuses) drive like normal cars.
>than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today
I have a 181HP Honda Civic with said turbo 4cyl, it's not noisy and is quieter than my original v6 Accord. A little less power (30HP less) but the fuel economy is insane, I average 40 MPG sitting in NYC traffic for 2 hours. 35 MPG on my normal commutes.
These small engines are fine, the problem is what automakers do with them.
Conventional petrol/diesel cars are way better for most people. I don't want an insane 0-60 time, my corolla is fast enough. More importantly, ICE cars have attained an incredible level of reliability. Honestly this type of robustness is rarely found in any other consumer class equipment.
On top of that, I can (and have) jump into my car with a close to empty fuel tank, and go on a 1000 km journey without worrying about how and when I'll fill up. EVs don't have that, because even if your route has a lot of public chargers, it will still take you way longer to charge up.
Edit: I'm not saying EVs are unreliable, just that I'm not gonna pay cash to be part of that experiment. I'll get in once the technology has proven itself.
The companies with the worst EV cars and the bottom of the list in EV sales are complaining about it "not working" but there is a difference between "waning sales", as Elon Musk put it, and "not working".
This sounds more like a defeated competitor than a leader.
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 217 ms ] threadSounds like a recipe for us to lose our auto industry to China. The instant some upstart puts a $20k simple super reliable EV on the market it’s over, and we will deserve it.
Of course some subset will keep buying the biggest F-9000 Super Chungus they can find while complaining about the price of gas, so maybe that will keep legacy auto alive.
You saw the same thing with microcars or anything especially affordable the past couple years. They only want to sell giant gas guzzling insanely expensive XXL crap and are doing their best to keep affordable shit off the market meanwhile it all sells just fine everywhere else. It's obvious how rigged the whole thing is same with real estate and "automatic price adjustments" that coincidentally biases things in favor of landlords, same for other software that biases things in favor of other colluding fucks like the auto industry so they merely "coincidentally" conspire. It's all total bullshit.
What pisses me off is the fact people somehow think an industry agreeing to use algorithms that only go in their favor and most of all if they all use those algorithms together doesn't count as collusion.
AI generated Chevy Goliath Ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI7Tq6sRxE4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA
Chances are if you own a pickup truck you're not using it to drive to the grocer's mart to pick up granny snacks for the senior's home.
You work for a living.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8P5vGcf-NU
Cars are getting massively cheaper. I don't see why you'd pay $50k for one.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413
A Bolt or Nissan Leaf with NACS fast charge and a bit better looks will sell pretty well. The Tesla model 3 sells.
I'd love to see one of the typical 4-door 4-cylinder "economy" cars like the Sentra, Corolla, or Civic with an EV transmission.
Why should they sell a Bolt if they don't have it? When you sell the car before it's made, you have to do a lot of customer handholding and the customer holds the dealer responsible when the car doesn't arrive on time. Much better to sell them something that's already on the lot, or at least on a truck on the way.
This is probably more specifically a US thing but the preference for large cars = luxury doesn't appear to be doing any favours to the market.
They don’t want to say things like “Chinese automakers are eating our lunch” or “we’ll never catch up to Tesla.”
The most bullish EV automakers should have seen Tesla’s charging network strategy 10 years ago and executed on something similar. Where are the Ford and GM-branded charging stations?
Their time is limited, and they will bring down the house with them. As you say, BYD, GW, and MG will eat them for lunch. I’ve been in their cars and they are pretty good, and have a lot of transferred tech from Tesla embedded at near zero R&D costs. With Tesla open sourcing their adapter design and getting federal subsidies to expand charger networks the Chinese makers just need to use the Tesla adapter and their infrastructure challenges are done.
Legacy auto EVs are garbage. They ignored Tesla for almost 15 years, and then once Tesla was Goliath, surprise pikachu. The time to build battery factories was when Tesla was building battery factories circa 2014-2015. The fact that Tesla predicted selling 500k EVs a year by 2020 was laughed at, and now they are approaching 2.3M/year total capacity of EVs alone (while still building 40GWh/year of stationary storage).
Good luck.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/g...
(yes, yes, I agree Elon is a monster, but he has also been effective)
I went to a showroom I looked at Teslas. I could not find a single car with even panels gaps. The wipers don't work. The car doesn't have USS anymore and Tesla vision sucks. I could go on and on and on. I seriously considered one but just too many shortcomings.
For the price of Model Y, I can buy a Lexus ES300h(car is QC and build perfection) and drive that car for the next 15 years with oil changes once a year.
I keep hearing this from people, especially my friends who work for other manufacturers. I personally couldn't care less.
Hell, if they sold it pre-scratched and pre-dented It'd be even better, would same me the paranoia of something happening to it.
Why would anyone pay new car prices for a damaged car? It has lower resale value.
> Why would anyone pay new car prices for a damaged car? A) I didn't say it had to be the same price. Sell the car with a bumper blemish and give people a discount to account for the fact that you didn't have to reject parts.
B) People might buy it for the same reason that others gent bent out of shape about panel gaps; personal differences in what they value.
It feels like the quip everyone uses without any meaningful value.
Do panel gaps really matter? Probably not, but if I'm paying Tesla prices, maybe?
There's absolutely nothing sudden about people caring about panel gaps on new vehicles.
Cockeyed panel gaps are a tell-tale of a used/bodged vehicle, this has been the case my entire life. It's the last thing you want to see on what's supposedly a new vehicle, and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
It didn't help that the experience of renting from Hertz was terrible, but renting the Y seemed to confirm every terrible Tesla rumor and then some. It didn't drive well, the range was surprisingly bad(abused battery maybe?), the controls were confusing and distracting, and hell, even the acoustics of the interior were terrible(glass roof is dumb).
And yet it takes the #4 spot for most vehicle sales in 2023 in the US, and likely the #1 spot globally.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars...
Tesla does not owe current customers firm resale value.
How is the man that has actually made a huge difference in battery-powered cars and actually made them seem like a viable alternative to gas a 'monster'. And yet the dozens of environmentalist activists who have done nothing but make a fuss and complain seen as the good guys. This sort of praise of mediocrity and ineffectiveness is the root cause of so many issues today.
Musk has been extremely effective. Maybe that means there is something about his thinking and methods of action that we should seek to replicate instead of criticize.
As far as the cars go, I think most Americans can see that spending an extra $10k on an EV Chevy isn’t gonna keep the Saudis from draining Ghawar Field. I wonder how cheap BYD and VinFast can get their imports.
https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+abussive
https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+petty
https://fortune.com/2023/09/12/elon-musk-walter-isaacson-boo... ("One of Elon Musk’s favorite video games taught him the ‘life lesson’ that ‘empathy is not an asset.’")
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/15/tesla-asked-cooley-to-fire-l... ("Tesla asked law firm to fire attorney who worked on Elon Musk probe at SEC, report says")
https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/10/04/making-sense-of-grime... ("Grimes sues Elon Musk after she said he wouldn’t let her see their son")
> Indeed, reports and Grimes’ since-deleted social media posts indicate that the situation has become rather ugly, with allegations that Musk is being a controlling bully. In posts last month on Musk’s X platform, Grimes alleged that he wasn’t allowing her to see one of their children and threatened to take him to court unless he let her see her son or responded to her lawyer. She said the situation was “utterly ripping my family apart.”
I’ll ask one of the folks tracking Elon facts publicly to aggregate all of the citations on the topic, so the next time I say “monster” a simple URL citation will do. As a high empathy human, I fully stand behind my characterization based on all available public evidence. Hurt people hurt people I suppose.
Good EVs sell.
However, the other experience I've seen is the near lack of required paid maintenance. That could easily come out to another $10k over 8-10yr, which would shorten the payoff. Of course that would hurt the dealers for the major Autos, and drive up their pricing.
Also, my wife hated the EV. Sure, it was a Bolt so it wasn't that comfy, but she hated having to think about charging. She's fine dealing with gas. That right there kills it for us.
As for the fueling up, there's a huge gulf between those who own a home and those who don't in terms of EV experience - when you have a charger in your garage, you wake up every day with a "full tank".
In fact I don't have a car at all. But if I got one it wouldn't be an EV until nearly every parking space has a charger so I can combine a trip with a charge.
But really I'm so happy I don't have a car anymore. There's so many drawbacks.
- Huge cost and high depreciation
- Maintenance costs and time sink
- Tyre swap in winter
- insurance and worry about losing no claim bonus
- Road tax and chance of fines if you miss a speed sign
- Finding parking and paying for that
- Worry about break-in, damage and theft
- Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
- Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport)
I don't really see how all these drawbacks compensate for slightly more easily getting from A to B. Public transport here is amazing and costs 20€ unlimited per month. If I'm in a hurry a taxi will cost a tenner or so. And as I work mostly from home most of trips involve going out and drinking so I wouldn't be able to drive anyway :P
And I see more and more of my friends going car free too. I think that's more of a reason for dropping car sales now.
-no public transport inside of an hour's walk
-sky-high petrol/diesel prices, but I can charge from solar
-cheap road tax for EVs
-I leave the farm once every 1-2 weeks and generally only go about 15km away on those journeys, so trickle-charging and moderate range would not be an impediment to my mobility
Unfortunately a farming income does not translate to a new Tesla, or even a used Kia EV. Guess I should have got one before I burned out and quit tech.
But you are spot on. The dollars and cents just don't make sense.
> Huge cost and high depreciation
Fair cost and zero depreciation
> Maintenance costs and time sink
Oil change once a year.
> Tyre swap in winter
Fair point, local laws and climate realities may require this.
> insurance and worry about losing no claim bonus
Low insurance; no worry if you get a few more scratches on top of existing scratches.
> Road tax and chance of fines if you miss a speed sign
There are apps for that
> Finding parking and paying for that
There are apps for that
> Worry about break-in, damage and theft
Comes pre-damaged.
> Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
Sure, but not much you can do on the train either, standing squeezed like a sardine in a can, with network connectivity only above ground or at stations.
> Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport)
I think there have been only 2 times in the past few years when I felt this was an inconvenience.
>There are apps for that
>> Finding parking and paying for that
>There are apps for that
Ahh the "you're holding it wrong" everyone with a ticket or parking fees is a sucker!
>> Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
>Sure, but not much you can do on the train either, standing squeezed like a sardine in a can, with network connectivity only above ground or at stations.
I don't even have words, so everyone else that can't manage to avoid local laws deftly is a sucker who didn't use the right app but you can't find offline video, ebooks , wikipédia , etc...at some point you just gotta be content you're making a choice for your preference so let people have theirs. I definitely drove your beat up Toyota/Saturn/Honda/Mazda for 16 years and you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that lifestyle willingly.
I mean, to each their own, but I can't remember the last time I got a speeding fine, and I listen to ebooks in the car every trip.
Well yes that's what I do if I have the choice. My most expensive car ever cost me 2200 euro (which was a pretty nice full-option 10-year-old Volvo - big cars are super unpopular here because of the high road tax).
But the problem with those these days is that you're banned from city centers then.
But still I feel much freeer not having the worry and cost of it. And I like walking a lot and I hate making any plans so I often go off on a trip to whatever and take the train back from wherever I end up. But yes YMMV!
I like this one. But for the apps... they are plaster, not solution.
A surprising number of underground systems have phone signal these days. I was recently surprised, visiting London, to notice that my phone was mostly working on the tube; the tube is, of course, the oldest and clunkiest of all underground systems, so if they can do it...
If you have no parking at home, you can't have a car. Bringing EV into your situation is irrelevant.
In China, it technically isn’t allowed (like Japan you have to have proof of parking spot before you can buy a car), but the rule is easily gamed and lots of people park on the street (or in many cases, the right lane of a two lane one way road without street parking, they only get ticketed once a year so it’s ok - see “wild parking”). It’s a bit crazy, maybe other cities aren’t as bad as Beijing.
There's public car parks around but they are prohibitively expensive as it's an old city center.
I could also rent a spot somewhere. But this becomes a special issue with EVs, because I regularly would have to go and drive it somewhere to charge it. Also those rented spaces are crazy expensive.
- No need to plan around transportation times.
- Staying at the party after the last subway: the crowd changes a lot.
- Intimate conversation with friends/partner, while listening to music of your choice.
- Dressing up without worrying about others staring. It applies to your passengers too! You will see your friends really thankful for your ride, wearing suits/dresses/high heels!
- Hability to change destination on the go.
- Having a strong excuse not to drink, then partying till 6am, waking up without a hangover and going straight to the gym.
- Going to wherever after work on a Friday night.
I never regretted it.
Though strangely enough a friend of mine was told off by security for taking off her heels while sitting down (they hurt a bit) but at the same time ignoring the boobs girl altogether lol.
Berlin is even (way) crazier by the way. Though I'm not sure how they would deal with this in public there, Germans can be a bit more formal in that sense :)
Interesting, I didn't know about that movement.
I'm currently running an errand and I took an Uber here because it's absolutely pouring at the moment and I don't need this sort of excitement in my life.
My friend used to drive a car that we dubbed "the car of truth". Many honest conversations have been had in there.
Except for the rush hour. When I did ~25km commute one way I had to think when I should leave with the car. With bicycle, time was constant, so I was free to choose when I could leave.
> - Staying at the party after the last subway: the crowd changes a lot. > - Having a strong excuse not to drink
Car is good excuse not to drink - I have used that excuse myself. But there are other ways - you do not need car for this. It does not work both ways: if you want to drink, with car you can not.
My point is: car is convenience not freedom.
Car is freedom to stay late. Public transit is freedom to drink.
These two really depend on the system and frequency; non-issue for high-frequency underground systems, say. There'll be another one along in 3 minutes.
> Staying at the party after the last subway: the crowd changes a lot.
This depends a lot on the system as well. In Dublin, traditionally, we only had night buses on weekends, they were infrequent, and they used weird Frankenstein routes (they'd take like five normal routes, and make a route that passed _all the stops of all five_) so they took hours. In the last few years, a bunch of normal routes have started going 24 hours; makes things a lot easier. I was recently out inconveniently far from home, at 4 in the morning, resigning myself to an hour walk home, or else trying to somehow get a taxi, when I noticed that there was a bus coming in ten minutes at the stop outside the bar, which would bring me to five minutes walk from home.
If you're situated more than 5km from the nearest town, car ownership is practically mandatory.
I do eventually plan to get some dinky EV at some point for scooting around town. The way I solved the problem you mentioned about charge locations is to install a 240V.
imo, electric vehicles are still a luxury even at lower price points unless you live a very specific lifestyle.
Oh yes, when you are used to that freedom, always having to return to the car feels like a ball and chain. People who are not used to it clearly don't feel that way at all. An impressive example of how perspective changes perception.
Basically, China is doing a better job than us, therefore the job isn't worth doing anyway and frankly who even cares about competing? I'm going home, and I'm taking the ball, and you can forget about my birthday party too.
But the only worthwhile analysis is basically "too bad, disruption is happening". Total car/truck sales went into a steep dive in 2020, made a marginal recovery the next year, and then declined again in 2022. The back-to-office coercion only had partial success - commercial real estate is still sinking in many markets. Meanwhile, e-bike sales got red-hot and everyone suddenly discovered Youtube urbanism. California governor Gavin Newsom made a trip to visit BYD recently, and their buses are being trialed in a few cities. You can even pin a lot of the global instability on energy changes - Russia was a big oil/gas exporter, and they seem to have driven everyone away from them at this point.
western conspiracy?
The important part is that while the subsidies introduced significant graft and the creation of some vehicles which were below market standard to the point that consumers wouldn't buy them, those subsidies also worked to build the factories, train the people, and demonstrate the demand which have then ensured that ever since China axed those subsidies four years ago, EV sales have still been growing extremely fast, every single year. Those subsidies were good policy, and so was gutting them to reduce corruption once EVs had enough momentum to not be significantly helped by them anymore. We should learn from that good policy and try to compete, rather than just giving up and going home.
If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips.
Mild hybrid is winning out.
> If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips.
Completely agree. The best way to solve this issue is to fund or otherwise incentivize alternatives that get cars off of the road entirely.
The answer isn't an EV car, although these will help. It's reliable EV light rail/passenger trains.
I can replace a transmission or engine on my ford focus for $500, the car is at 140k miles with basic maintenance.
There is no way around battery replacement out of warranty and Tesla has recently raised their battery prices. I happen to keep my cars for 10+ years because its a depreciating asset.
The issue with EVs is charging infrastructure. However that will continue to improve over the next 10 years. As will the economics - there’s no reason for an EV to cost so much. They’re just premium priced because everyone wants a Tesla margin, and they’re used to demanding high prices for their complex mechanical gear and belts beasts because that complexity of machine really costs that much. BYD is proving tho you can deliver a quality $10k EV at much lower costs than we see coming from the major car makers.
I’d note your $500 replacement is if you do it yourself with a scrap engine. You can’t take it to the dealer or a shop and get a major change to the car done. So while that may be your economics, it’s not a very widely shared option.
Nevermind "gasoline" - from the US carmaker lobby view, clearly diesel is the dinosaur juice because the European makers promoted it and lied about it (while in Germany petrol is the dinosaur juice as diesel is cheaper with more mileage). Definitely a dinosaur fight if you ask me.
The lack of a charger network is lamentable but let's not forget that Benz' first motor car had to be refilled at pharmacies; the fuel station network didn't come to exist overnight either.
Transitions that happen with ourselves "feeling overridden" always leave us annoyed and perky. That's no different whether authorities put that shiney new motorway right through your neighbourhood or your local fuel station closes - or your new company car is electric because that's what fleet management went for to tick the green box. We're already in the middle of a big shift here. whether one of us individually embraces our resists it won't stop it from happening. The choice of the dinosaur fate is everyone's own by and large.
https://www.gizmochina.com/2022/12/29/new-2023-byd-dolphin-l...
But it would be good to hear from someone with actual insight.
do they use some kind of special battery tech? because that's not the common experience with battery operated devices, every phone I have ever owned had half battery life after one year. Same for laptops. Even the super efficient macbook air m1 I have now lasts half what it did two years ago.
I have never seen a battery last ten years, let alone do it at 80% capacity.
• Car batteries are thermally managed much better than your laptop or especially your phone, which helps longevity
• Much larger capacity means a similar amount of battery cycles lasts a long time. 1000 cycles is common for lithium ion, which in a 300 mile range car means 300,000 miles
That's impressive. I just put a new clutch in my 2004 Toyota Matrix. The clutch, flyweel and pressure plate were $450 just in parts from Rockauto, the cheapest of the cheap.
(1) legacy car manufacturers don't know how to make cars. They forgot how to make cars decades ago. All components are manufactured by someone else, they slap their label on it. If you don't know how to make cars, it is nearly impossible to make new kind of cars.
(2) If you don't know how to do something, you can spend some money and learn. Legacy car manufacturers had $250 billion profits, but didn't spend any money on building this capability. Meanwhile, Tesla made electric cars, built supercharger network, built gigafactories, expanded these capabilities globally.
(3) Dealers hate EVs. Even if legacy manufacturers make EVs, dealers won't sell them. I've been going to dealerships every year for more than five years, dealers treat you like shit if you wanna buy an EV. Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs. They aren't going to make much money replacing windshield wipers.
(4) Meanwhile, China has figured out how to do EVs at scale, iterating and improving batteries and EVs. Eventually, legacy car manufacturers will go bust (after taking tens of billions in bailouts). We'll import cars from China either directly or indirectly. If there are too many tariffs, China is going to build assembly plants in Mexico or Canada, sell them very competitively in US. VW sells ID.3 for 16K in China, the competition is intense![2]
[1]https://www.epi.org/blog/uaw-automakers-negotiations/
[2] https://insideevs.com/news/675842/volkswagen-slashes-id3-pri...
A hybrid can have a 2 year/20k factory oil change interval, and really doesn't need much of any other service. An ICE comes in once a year for an oil change and not much else. Maybe spark plugs and timing belt around 100k... if that even goes to the dealer service and not an independent.
Sure, more brake work on an ICE. More tire work on an EV (heavier, probably fancy low rolling resistance tires). Maybe some transmission work on an ICE or Hybrid, but they're all 'sealed' units these days that are not supposed to need anything done to them. Other than that, what does an ICE have that an EV doesn't that needs regular maintenance?
We're not going from a 1970s carburated car that needs regular tuneups to an EV.
The short answer is: more stuff that can break.
What you outlined is true in the best case scenario. Anecdotally, if I had to guess, 20% of my friends and family with cars older than 5 years have had them in the shop for something other than routine maintenance just this year. (And I realize that this is cherry-picked, but many (most?) ICE cars, frankly, are just not that reliable.)
Do EVs fare any better in practice? Just looking at reliability by manufacturer, Tesla's reliability is below the industry average^[1], which you would not expect if electric cars were fundamentally more reliable by virtue of having less "stuff that can break". The related notion that EVs are cheaper to maintain also seems up for debate^[2], and GGP's assertion that EVs have "zero repairs" is risible on its face.
I'm willing to entertain the possibility that Tesla is simply a subpar car manufacturer despite being the West's premier EV manufacturer, but either way we are evidently not yet living in a world where EVs offer car buyers freedom from maintenance and breakage.
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^[1] random google search results: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-toyota-lexus-m..., https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-vehi...
^[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/26/hertz-pulls-back-on-ev-plans...
Also, with Hertz having problems keeping Teslas repaired, its also not necessarily pointing to drivetrain reliability. Its not immediately obvious from the reporting if the issues they're having are mostly drivetrain or other parts like bodywork and suspension and what not. If a Tesla bumper replacement is more expensive than a Nissan Altima bumper replacement, is that EV drivetrains being more expensive?
BEV evangelists commonly steer reliability comparisons toward the drivetrain, since it in theory ought to be more reliable (at the very least it will have fewer moving parts), but I don't think my earlier comment was in an explicitly drivetrain-specific context. As you say, there are many other facets of vehicle reliability that matter.
It's also worth mentioning that modern ICEs seem to be exceptionally reliable even with the bare minimum maintenance, which makes sense given the maturity of the technologies involved. Transmissions maybe not so much, but the obvious answer to that IMO is hybrid drive systems—series hybrids, simple planetary gear systems, etc. Everything on the road today ought to be a hybrid, since they're arguably the most impactful way to distribute our limited battery production capacity. A standard hybrid battery is something like 1/100 the capacity of a BEV battery.
Is a Volkswagen EV generally more expensive to repair than a Volkswagen ICE? Do your links answer that kind of question?
And you're talking to a person literally commenting from the auto shop after shelling out a couple hundred bucks in maintenance on a 2017 ICE, maintenance that I literally won't have to do on my EV. So kind of funny having someone suggest the EV is more expensive when it's going against my lived experience, right now.
But—since you asked—just Googling around, recentish CR data^[1] (late '22) do seem to show that Tesla isn't a low outlier in terms of reliability, being joined in the lower echelons of EV reliability by such manufacturers as "Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Jeep, GMC and Chevrolet." All well-established manufacturers that seem to be having just as much trouble building reliable EVs as Tesla.
All these data, though obviously incomplete, point strongly in a certain direction: that an EV powertrain is not a magic bullet for reliability or repair costs. Do you have any material reason to suspect that the obvious conclusion isn't the correct one?
> And you're talking to a person literally commenting from the auto shop after shelling out a couple hundred bucks in maintenance on a 2017 ICE, maintenance that I literally won't have to do on my EV. So kind of funny having someone suggest the EV is more expensive when it's going against my lived experience, right now.
Anecdotes like this are are just as irrelevant as the EV sob stories that constantly make the news, which is why I haven't posted any of the latter. But if we're doing that, did you catch that crazy story^[2] about the Tesla owner who was told their battery suffered "water ingress" after driving in the rain and that they'd have to shell out $20k for a new one just like that? What a bummer!
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^[1] https://insideevs.com/news/622136/tesla-consumer-reports-rel...
^[2] https://www.autoblog.com/2023/10/16/tesla-owners-heart-misse...
> “Remember, in the likes of GM and other OEMs, there’s decades of establishment of a broad national parts supply network. There’s an aftermarket of parts that that is there that is less mature obviously in the context of Tesla,” Scherr said, adding that margins and other EV issues would improve as Hertz looks to “diversify” that part of its fleet.
It sounds like they aren't saying anything about rates of issue, but rather cost. A Malibu could have 10 issues for every 1 of the same issue on a Tesla (e.g bumper replacement), but if the Tesla costs $2,000 to fix and the Malibu is $150 to fix, the Malibu is going to win. But one would expect that as the Teslas continue to become popular, cheaper parts will arrive.
Sure, I bought a first model year FCA car, so I understand. It's ICE only, and has been in the shop a lot (I should have pursued lemon law remedies, but it wasn't really that bad...). But it's never been powertrain issues. Bad crimping of connectors in wiring harness led to assistance features disabling, paint issues, multiple issues with infotainment, door beeper went out, problems with sliding doors, whatever recalls, 12v battery failed early, and the replacement failed a month after. All of that kind of stuff happens to EVs too.
Some day, I'm sure I'll add a spectacular transmission failure on this particular vehicle, and that wouldn't have been an issue with an EV, or at least not in the same way (EVs do often have some sort of gearing, and could be sensitive to manufacturing or assembly errors in the gears and bearings, but it's usually mechanically simpler than a 9 speed automatic)
Mechanically, my CR-V hybrid's "transmission" is two electric motors and two lockup clutches geared for different cruise speeds. Given the reliability of modern ICEs, it seems like the best of both worlds from a complexity standpoint (not that reliability necessarily correlates in a straightforward way).
I haven’t had major engine issues, but I’ve spent a lot of money on these systems
Exhaust / emissions, yes. Emissions systems are notoriously flakey.
To claim that an EV has a starter motor and an alternator is misunderstanding at best, wrong at worst. An EV doesn't have a have a starter motor than cranks a huge mechanical engine. An ICE's alternator converts AC to DC, it has a DC/DC converter.
Here's an start for a RAV4 Prime, a plugin hybrid vehicle: https://parts.lakelandtoyota.com/p/TOYOTA_2023_RAV4-PRIME/St...
And here's an alternator for the same vehicle: https://parts.lakelandtoyota.com/p/toyota_2021_RAV4-PRIME/Al...
Electric vehicles certainly have their own issues (which may or may not be worse, depending on your point of view), but one of their advantages is fewer moving mechanical parts.
So of course they were handed this project by the feds to expand their EV offerings and completely shit the bed. They’ve been spending decades competing on making the most fuel unfriendly vehicles on the planet.
I don’t want an EV, but if I did, American (including Tesla) would be the last place I looked.
(Genuine) Q: Why is it that the rest of the world manages just fine without needing full size diesel pickups? Over here even tradespeople drive panel vans, not pickups.
Yea, you could do that with a 90's Toyota Hilux too and it was 75% smaller =)
Also you can fit that exact same sheet in a van and it's covered from the elements, along with your tools.
It's all about image.
Americans think van = "free candy child molester" or "FBI stakeout" and minivan = "soccer mom", which is bad for some reason.
Thus, everybody drives HUGE TRUCKS or SUVs, because they've been marketed as cool for 20+ years. Even though a proper mini van would do the exact same thing in a smaller, more efficient package.
(also huge trucks are exempt from environmental standards because of a legal fuckup they refuse to fix and thus better profits for the manufacturer)
You actually can’t fit full sheet goods (4’x8’) into 99% of pickups, there are very few pickups on the road with full-size (8’) beds that can fit sheet goods, most of them have ridiculously short beds, like 5’ long.
Take a look at this Chevy truck poster that shows the silhouette by generation, there’s almost no bed on new pickup trucks: https://customcarposters.com/products/chevy-pickup-truck-pos...
There are well over a million miles of unpaved roads and highways in the US. These usually have insufficient traffic to justify the cost of putting in a proper road bed. Equally, if you do get stuck out there because of poor road conditions, you may be stranded for a long time. American trucks, for good or ill, are designed to drive on these kinds of roads all day without falling apart.
I have a high-clearance AWD today and have a lot of experience driving on these types of roads. There are still occasional times when I "nope"-out of a road and turn around due to road conditions that really recommend a proper 4WD truck. It has happened in more parts of the US than I think people expect.
EDIT: Another common use case in some parts of the US is towing heavy things like boats, in places where every other person seems to own boats or other types of large vehicle trailers. Never my use case though.
There are plenty of legit use cases for a high clearance 4x4, but I think the vast majority of people claiming that they need one are being disingenuous, and really just want to feel like their commuter car is cool.
I own a smaller truck myself (Ford Maverick) and tow a ~3000lb trailer with it regularly in the summer. My fuel economy goes from 30 mpg -> 11 mpg while towing. If I had a diesel, it would have virtually zero impact on mpg.
Now, most people aren’t doing that every day, every year or ever, but a person thinks “what if I ever need to tow my airstream through the Rockies like they show on those commercials?” And they buy the vehicle with the most utility.
Other places that have mountainous regions, like South America, do have a lot more diesel trucks and 4x4s, so geographic region does play a part.
Tesla, from my expertise as a car builder, is just very sloppy. Poor panel fitment, door alignment, chintzy cheap materials for the price, and ultimately the smoke and mirror show that is FSD. Even if you manage to find one without all these issues, you still have a power source that essentially expires after 10 years and costs as much as a car to replace.
That's because of protectionist laws, aka the chicken tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax Asian/European manufacturers were squeezed out of the light truck market. US manufacturers then had this lucrative niche they marketed the hell out of.
This is wildly exaggerated, as in completely made-up.
The only significant difference is combustion engine internals vs. electric motor, which has a large difference in moving parts. But not two orders of magnitude.
The thing is, the ICE has had well over a century of perfecting, so while it is a lot more complex, it is so mature that stuff does not break. In over 35 years of owning many many cars, the number of times I've had an ICE internal component go bad is.. zero. Statistical noise aside, that's not a thing anymore and has not been since the 60s/70s.
The car that I've had which has spent by far (far) the most time at the dealer for repairs, was an EV. Nothing to do with the powertrain, just the usual stuff that breaks on cars like window regulators, electrical switches and hatch actuators. All things that are exactly the same regardless of ICE or EV powertrain.
If we don't count the ball bearings, an EV has 1 moving part.
A combustion engine easily has an "order of magnitude" more components. And I'm not even counting the gearbox here, which - in a modern automatic car - is clockwork levels of crazy gearing and technology.
A combustion engine has camshafts and pistons and valve lifters and timing chains (or belts) and dozens more. Every single of those moving parts is a potential failure mode. Add to that all the electronics and sensors we need to run a modern combustion engine, the complexity goes up exponentially.
Granted, we have been perfecting the metallurgy and construction of combustion engines for 100 years so they're amazingly reliable considering they work by inducing thousands of explosions a minute while every part moves at insane speeds.
- Diesel Particulate filter - Turbo - Clutch - Dual-mass Flywheel - Radiator
Each was 1000-2000€ except for the radiator. The DPF would've been a 2k€ operation, but I found a sketchy mechanic who just drilled it out and chipped the car to think the DPF was just fine. I paid in cash, didn't get a receipt =)
Then a tiny hex shaft broke in the bottom of the engine. It was the only thing running the oil pump to the engine and the only official repair was to replace the whole bottom part of the engine as a whole. Estimate: 2000€++.
It was fixed with liquid metal or something by a different sketchy car mechanic and I sold it immediately.
Meanwhile the maintenance schedule for my EV drive train is a fluid change every 150,000mi.
The first "real" maintenance is at 150k km where they do something to the battery cooling system. After that the next one is at 300k. I have no intention of keeping the car that long.
(of course there's the regular tire changes and brake repair, but it's not enforced by the manufacturer)
Agreed! If neither electric nor IC engines existed and we started developing both from scratch today, clearly the electric motors would be reliable within a year (I'm guessing, but probably) and the IC engines would take decades of development and manufacturing maturity to match the reliability.
But, that's not the world where we are. The ICE does have more than a century of development already so Honda/Mazda/Toyota/etc can manufacture an IC engine that'll go 200K+ miles with zero problems, so for a consumer buying a car today, the powerplant is not the source of trouble (whether EV or ICE). It's the rest of the car that needs repairs.
(An ICE engine should not have any explosions occurring, that's pinging and will damage the engine. It needs to be a controlled burn. But I'm nitpicking on the word.)
In my opinion the future will be an EV drivetrain. The only question is how do we store the energy to run the electric engines.
Batteries are a decent solution, but I'd love to see more range extenders like the Chevy Volt / Opel Ampera. Put in a 10-20kW battery, a 20-40 litre gas/diesel tank and a highly optimised generator that only charges the batteries.
Ta-dah, best of both worlds. You've got a reliable engine (steady RPM, steady output, no need to turbo it for power etc.) and a drivetrain that produces instant torque and is highly reliable.
They have four wheels (with, if you’re nitpicking, have many parts: the wheel itself, the tire, disc brake, brake pads, electronics for ABS, screws to put them together), and suspension (probably a more heavy one than ICE cars), don’t they?
(and doors and a trunk that can be opened, and handles to open the doors and trunk, and a steering wheel that has to be turned, and sun visors, and fans for cooling and heating, and, for modern cars, AC, likely with moving parts, and probably a few more moving parts)
The actual electric MOTOR has one moving part. An internal combustion engine has hundreds or thousands, depending on the model.
Because of that, I think saying the engine has only one moving part isn’t a good argument in a discussion of “Electric cars require much less maintenance than ICE cars”
Can you tell me which ICE has thousands of moving parts?
I've rebuilt several engines and can't think of anything that comes close.
In fact I have a fully disassembled (top and bottom) 4 cylinder engine sitting in the garage as a long term project and I'm pretty sure it's less than a hundred parts, although I haven't really counted. Certainly not multiple hundreds.
Another point of view of course is that each piece is one more way to break.
Just a reminder that EV has had well over a century of perfecting too.
A combination of battery and electric motor is an obvious solution for powering a vehicle. This is nothing new, revolutionary or disruptive. It has been tried many times before and has always failed for certain reasons. It will win, but not overnight.
Actually, it's so mature that it breaks exactly when the manufacturers want it to - after warranty.
Just like you can optimise a 3D-printed shelf to have a shape that's almost fully load-bearing and thus uses less material, you can produce a part that can be stressed a certain number of times before it breaks.
This practice crossed some kind of threshold in the latter half of the last decade, because every manufacturer is now in on it.
So cars are indeed "getting worse", because the margins of reliability are now much thinner than e.g. 20 years ago.
Not sure, all of my cars are way out of warranty (in nearly every case I've bought them way out of warranty already) and they keep going strong.
But you say the latter half of the last decade, so perhaps. My newest car is a 2013 (oldest is 1988).
If ICE cars never fail, I wonder what all the auto mechanics are doing? 282,637 automotive repair companies are currently in business, with 614,433 employees. How are they surviving is nobody is getting their ICE cars repaired?
I've had interactions with a few hundred people (at least) over 2 decades and every single person had their ICE car in the shop for repairs, small and large.
ICE cars also have major scheduled maintenance, somewhere around 90 - 120K, you have to replace timing belt and a bunch of things.
Car dealers don't make any money on selling new cars. Nobody buys a new car unless its priced a few thousand below MSRP (the past 2 years are an aberration). Dealerships make money on service. This is the same model as inkjet printers.
ICE cars are so horribly unreliable and bad, even new ones, there exist special laws just for them: lemon laws.
Cars in general are complex and expensive, Tesla EVs run afoul of lemon laws all the time: https://insideevs.com/news/433383/tesla-warranty-repairs-goo...
> 282,637 automotive repair companies are currently in business, with 614,433 employees. How are they surviving is nobody is getting their ICE cars repaired?
Collisions. The most expensive repair I've had is bodywork after a small fender bender. Way more expensive than maintenance or even pretty substantial repairs like an alternator replacement.
That's not to say that ICE cars don't ever need repairs for mechanical failures, but for such a complex machine they're extremely reliable.
Well I never said that. I said that components of the IC engine itself fail exceedingly rarely (in my personal experience, never).
"The car" is a far greater system than just the engine or motor. The powerplant (IC or electric) is a tiny percentage of the car as a whole.
It's all the other stuff that fails and keeps cars in the repair shop.
My second EV spent multiple weeks at the dealer to fix a window regulator that kept failing. Other things that often fail are electronics, actuator motors, wiring glitches, shocks, etc. All parts which are common to all cars, regardless of how it happens to produce horsepower.
> ICE cars are so horribly unreliable and bad, even new ones, there exist special laws just for them: lemon laws.
Ok you're clearly biased, since the above is not true. Lemon laws are not specific to ICE cars. They apply to EVs and plenty of EVs get repurchased due to lemon law criteria. I personally know someone who lemon law'd a Tesla. Lemons laws trigger if a new car spends an inordinate time at the dealer being repaired for whatever reason. Our EV (with the window regulator problem) came within a week of meeting lemon law criteria.
Consider the engine + transmission + exhaust + fuel, many moving parts all that can cause a fail closed of your car. Fuel system alone has a pump, filter, injectors, injector booster (looking at you bmw!). All that goes in the trash.
I will grant that EVs have new exciting things like coolant loop and pump for batteries so we don't get off that easy. Zero belts however, not a timing anything in sight, and the old coolant vs oil battle for heat movement is over.
Transmissions too can be a huge source of pain, modern ones are great, but if you end up with something <2012 or a CVT, who knows what could go wrong? Ton of solenoids, some fluid that can burn, for CVTs a lame belt...
It's a lot, EVs totally simplify that. In my mind my biggest worry is that all that stuff is software controlled now, which could be better but might be worse if we look at the average quality of code...
I just opened a lease car comparison site. Under €650 a month I get 11 German(-ish) cars to choose from. 10 of which are VAG, 1 is BMW. In total, however, I have 180+ cars to choose from, many of which are much cheaper than the German ones and are way better equipped.
In the UK they sell for £37K ($45K USD). I don't expect it is the exact same spec but even so it is annoying.
Total net to date: -12.4B (https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/category/Auto%2...), losses from ICE manufacturers.
Tesla's loan: $465 million, January 2010, Loan fully repaid in May 2013 (~3.5 years) https://www.energy.gov/lpo/tesla
Traditional car companies have access to tens of billions in bailouts, which EVs never have and never will. (1) Chrysler Bailout of 1979, $1.5 billion (2) In 2008, $17.4 billion bailout to General Motors and Chrysler (3) In 2009, $3 billion, cash for clunkers
I thought this was a war crime?
The issue is that the end users are also the electorate. Forcing everyone to EVs is going to cost more money than cars do now (at least for a time), and the same constituents that vote for legislators are going to feel it.
It worked for making dishwashers and washing machines shittier and more power efficient, maybe it will work for cars too. I just don’t think most people in the US are willing to commit to switching, however.
With the way PG&E keeps raising electricity prices in California, it may be cheaper to go back to gas. Just heard they are pushing yet another huge increase next year. As we approach $1/kWh, charging an EV gets painful.
Let me be specific. They killed 84 people with their negligence in Paradise alone, but they keep raising rates while never seeming to have the money to fix their problems. Did you know that in just 2021 the PG&E CEO Patricia Poppe was paid $51.2 million — the year that fire killed 84 Californians she made 51.2 million bucks for doing such a good job.
They can take their electric future and shove it right where the sun doesn’t shine. They want to make that company the center of California’s future.
And they want to raise rates again this year a huge amount on every single customer. After rolling back solar incentives for rooftop.
I’m sorry, I hate PG&E. Especially when you have models like SMUD and Roseville power just chugging along delivering power inside the same system at less than half the price. There is no excuse left for PG&E to continue as it has. They need to be broken up and someone like SMUD should take over.
They're terrible, so stop being a customer.
I so wish I had enough real estate square footage to put up solar to get rid of PG&E abuse.
Unfortunately the space I have can only fit a few panels which won't make a dent. I still want to do it as a fun project, but it won't help much.
And Palo Alto too. Every time I want to get depressed and cry a little I go look at the Palo Alto electric rates. I don't live that far from PA but being in the PG&E abuse zone, have to pay far more.
https://www.cityofpaloalto.org/files/assets/public/v/4/utili...
That's what a public utility can do instead of a for-profit monopoly like PG&E which is just maximizing revenue from a captive audience.
I want an adorable, tiny EV Mitsubishi Delica for $13,000 new. https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/en/newsrelease/2023/detail...
Or this adorable, tiny EV SUV for about the same price: https://www.thedrive.com/news/gms-tiny-electric-pickup-is-an...
Elon stated that Cybertruck will weigh about 7000 lbs. That's 3.5 tons.
That's the same mass as an F-350 DRW (dual rear wheel) loaded with options.
Seriously heavy. I'm not anti heavy vehicles or anything; I have a 3/4 ton truck myself (~5200 lbs.) I just think it's eye opening just how heavy these EVs are.
Of course, the same could be said about unnecessarily enormous ICE vehicles people drive nowadays too.
Vehicle weight really ought to be taxed.
https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i...
Weight is directly called out as a factor:
> SUVs can cause more harm to a person on foot when a crash occurs because of their greater body weight and larger profile
I just want a small, cheap second car for running errands around the neighborhood. TBH, if I ever break down on this, I’ll probably just buy a 12 year old Leaf that gets 70 miles of range for $6,000, or whatever. I just really want an electric version of the adorable, tiny Japanese trucks I see in my Seattle neighborhood.
Preemptive edit: yes I’ve thought many times about buying an e-bike. Love the idea, but I value my health too much to entrust it to Seattle drivers. Every person I know who regularly bikes in Seattle has some horror story about being hit by a car.
Until our municipal government values biking as a first class alternative to driving, I will not put myself in danger.
I think I had a Kia for a day when the Bolt was in for the battery recall and it wasn't bad. I still think the Bolt nailed the one-pedal driving though and I preferred it over the Kia. Thanks for reminding me, I almost forgot I'd driven that car. It was a lot more comfortable and finished than the Bolt, although not as nimble from what I remember.
Or maybe, just maybe, realize your consumer preferences are not universal and are in fact the minority view
I'd like to try one out for my next car but I can't afford a luxury car.
The US market is so weird. Mostly dominated by very expensive, very large vehicles. Yet, it seems like the kind of consumer who might want a EV is also the kind of consumer who would want a smaller vehicle, which would be far more practical. I guess the Bolt (in limbo, with a new design maybe coming?) and Nissan Leaf are pretty much it right now.
I think automakers just assume "US consumers want big, expensive cars" and copy/pasted that over to their EV offerings, while the big untapped EV market is probably for more practical people who would gladly drive a smaller, more efficient, cheaper vehicle.
In the US it mostly is a decent decision to buy electric (and I love my Tesla and Volt I use here) but there are some caveats.
With the Tesla, it is practical for my needs, but I bought it more so because it is fun to drive, I like the tech etc..Other countries, outside of Europe, China and other developed nations are a mixed bag.
For example in Costa Rica, where I have a property, even with the government tax discounts it doesn't make any sense because electric is really expensive there and it is difficult to get parts is something goes wrong. Also, if you want a car that you are not going to drive a lot of miles in every year there is also the issue of time degrading your battery which is going to be a lot more expensive and difficult to replace there.
South Africa has so many current problems with their electric grid that they heavily tax BEV's and plug in hybrid cars instead of offering tax breaks like other countries. Ironically, having solar panels and batteries for a house makes more sense there.
....and guess which car brand is has one of the higher theft rates because of parts and resale around the world....Toyota, who has been very slow to go BEV. The formula for Toyota is to wait until technologies are perfected and to then build reliable products that will last for years which the majority of buyers seem to prefer worldwide.
Because of the slow market adoption it will not surprise me if the legislation around the world to ban ICE sales ends up being relaxed before it takes effect and the transition happens much more slowly.
I don't have charging at home, but the L2 charging around me is reasonably priced. Equivalent to buying gas for $2/gallon (and I live in a place with pricy gas, around $5-6/gallon). L3 chargers can be closer to gas prices, but they're only necessary on very long road trips which I rarely do
They need to build smaller, less fancy cars with prices for normal people.
This will hasten adoption. We'll see gas stations taking out their pumps and tanks to put in chargers and transformers.
500KW chargers already exist.[1]
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23922649/gravity-dc-fast...
Well the tax credit is available already. That makes the slump harder to understand.
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean...
One problem has been that there is not enough power coming via the regular infrastructure but believe that has been mostly solved now.
Then there are a lot of people who do not have permanent parking space. Most commercial parking houses offer some spots with charging but the need may outstrip the availability.
If you are left to find a parking spot outside somewhere you are out of luck, unless there is a charging station close to work, (and you drive to work)
An electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
It's a shame EVs are not catching on, because they're really just better cars. I'd definitely pay a premium for an EV (and I have). I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires.
Why would the tyres be more expensive? Something like ID.3 or MG4 use normal tyres no different than ones you'd put on your normal Fiesta, they aren't any more expensive. The increased tyre wear is a problem but only in that it's directly linked with how heavy your foot is, and EVs make it much easier to have a heavy foot as you don't get any typical downsides of heavy acceleration you'd get in a petrol/diesel car.
Like for like compared to the same model with an ICE drivetrain? Sure. But that doesn't mean that all EVs are heavy. Our Volkswagen e-Up is only 1200kg.
Volskwagen ID.3 is 1740kg which I suppose is heavy, but a Diesel Golf 8 is nearly 1500kg, so the weight difference isn't that massive. And something like a Nissan Qashqai is 1700kg in a diesel, so if you swapped that for a new ID.3 you haven't bought a heavier car at all.
Compared to 997kg in en ICE version.
I do imagine that the thin tires they put on BMW i3s would last less. But for most people getting an EV now I can’t see how increased tire wear would be a practical problem.
And I do drive dynamically, let’s say. It’s just too fun not too.
Most of my miles are done on long journeys. I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home. UK charging infrastructure seems pretty underdeveloped so far. My 2018 petrol car does 600 miles on a tank.
The upshot of all that is that an EV would give me half the range at twice the cost, and a headache every time I needed to charge it.
I really want EVs to get better, and I’m sure they will. But for now, they’re hugely inferior for me.
I'm still waiting to hear how the government plans to solve this or incentivize private investment for this setup to work. Because yeah, if you live in UK and don't have a private drive then I have no idea how you're using an electric car, unless you literally have a Tesla and live right next to a supercharger(I know one person with that setup and it works fine for them, it's literally one 20 minute stop a week and they get enough charge to last them a week).
>>Most of my miles are done on long journeys.
Funnily enough, for that use case you should be ok-ish, as most motorway stops in the UK are now equipped with rapid chargers, so if you're just driving up and down the country you should be able to just charge when you stop for a break, and with modern EVs easily doing 200+ miles per charge this really shouldn't be an issue.
The other thing is - you are an outlier if most of your driving is done on long journeys. Most people use their car to do a school run and commute to work, usually no more than 30-50 miles a day. If that's your setup(and you can charge at home), then EVs(and PHEVs to a large extent) are just a no brainer.
I assume that to be true in most places, however, one has to consider that even those people occasionally make long distance travels.
What happens if for whatever emergency I have drive 500 mi across the state, keep an ICE just in case? Hit the hay to wait for my car to recharge?
Uhm, you either rent a car locally if that's an option, or in any modern EV realistically you'd drive for 250 miles, then do a 45 minute stop to recharge and then do the other 250 miles. It would end up being marginally slower than in a normal car.
Also depends on the emergency, right - at 500 miles that's at least 10 hours of driving, it can't be that urgent. If someone is literally dying you'd get there faster in a normal car, I suppose - but somehow I don't pick my cars based on some incredibly rare situation. If you regularly have to address "emergencies" 500 miles away then I guess yes, don't buy an EV.
>I don't pick my cars based on some incredibly rare situation. If you regularly have to address "emergencies" 500 miles away then I guess yes, don't buy an EV.
Mr. Joe may also want to take his family for a summer trip, or attend some business at the capital city, it's not as unreasonable or rare as you think for the average person to account for the 1-2 times per year he might want or need to make a long distance trip when making their purchase.
>in any modern EV realistically you'd drive for 250 miles, then do a 45 minute stop to recharge
I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
> Mr. Joe may also want to take his family for a summer trip, or attend some business at the capital city, it's not as unreasonable or rare as you think for the average person to account for the 1-2 times per year he might want or need to make a long distance trip when making their purchase.
No, it is not unreasonable or rare to do two long-distance trips a year. But what holds true for an emergency that requires you to drive 800km holds also true for a leisure or business trip where you can plan a little more beforehand.
> I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
Of course not. You are looking at charging times for plugging in an extension cord from a household outlet (which in Europe is 220V AC at 16A, therefore ~3500W). It's like saying that refueling your 30t truck with a garden hose is taking really long. Well, duh!
The fast chargers you find on highways are usually DC chargers with varying specifications. IIRC, the smallest DC chargers you can find (at least in mainland Europe) are 500V at 125A, so ~62000W. These load your average car battery in less than an hour, IFF your car can do it (not all new ones can, so watch out). Really high-performance EV like Porsche Taycan or Tesla S can charge much faster, if the DC charger allows it. There are modells that go up to 240kW, which would charge a recent Tesla S with 100kWh battery in less than 30 minutes from empty to 100%.
This is goal post shifting, you said "emergencies". Vacation trips aren't emergencies. Tens of millions of us rent cars anyway for such trips since they involve flying.
>I'm not getting this kind of number, Google claims charging time is 31h–39h (220V) for an ID.3 and 21h–32h (220V) for a Nissan Leaf.
Did you seriously just use 2.3kW emergency home wall plug as your number for a stop vs 77-400 kW DC chargers (which are what are actually found at stops)? Or even a proper 7-22kW home charger? The very first hits I saw on Google for charging an iD.3 [0, 1] both showed the correct range of options, and other cars (including Teslas) are capable of handling more power. I'm curious how you arrived at the idea that owners were all accepting 1-2 days for each charge of an EV.
----
0: https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/volkswagen/2020/id-3
1: https://evbox.com/en/electric-cars/volkswagen/volkswagen-id3
https://www.nissanusa.com/experience-nissan/news-and-events/...
I didn't look at what editions of the Leaf support DC charging, but it's safe to expect that new electric cars will almost all support it, and that it will get easier (in the sense of finding and paying for it).
Personally I can't imagine an emergency where I need to travel 500 miles as fast as possible but I suppose I'd either fly, take a train, or rent an ICE car. I personally wouldn't invest in a dedicated emergency car because that would cost far more than the other three options.
One scenario I could imagine is an evacuation for wildfires or hurricanes, but often there is plenty of warning with those events. Having one gas car topped off during hurricane season is probably good safety if you live on the Gulf coast.
In the short term very thin flat cables are being tested. But this assumes you can park opposite your house.
Councils are happy to lease pavements to providers but it's not a lucrative proposition right now for 95% of UK streets, it's also victim to a negative feedback mechanism where home owners won't buy EVs because charging is hard which creates low demand
Councils can't solve it without investment, most likely it will solve itself when the majority of high income charging locations have been constructed. Most charging companies are operating on long-term investments leveraging debt. It's going to take years to solve, and that's without worrying about the grid infrastructure
I can go 290 miles at £0.016/mile when charging at home. At the (expensive) motorway services it's then £0.15/mile to rapid-charge. The unleaded at that services is £1.60/l so at 42 mpg (guess) it's about £0.17/mile. The EV version of my car is more expensive than petrol but it's not 2x. A petrol car is more expensive to run and fuel (in the UK, at least).
Is that from solar? Or some tariff granting 6p/kWH delivered?
As far as I know, the distribution has for a very, very long time been managed by a private, regulated monopoly utility.
> fixed charge
I pay the same fixed (daily) standing charge regardless of how much electricity I use. This is normal here. To include it in the calculations makes no sense.
I asked, because if I chose Octopus supply, my energy supply price per kWh would vary according to the supplier but the price per kWh for distribution would not. (And Octopus would naturally only quote the price that they are charging for the part of the total picture that they're involved with.)
Being the total (excellent!) rate, I'm a little surprised that Octopus customers aren't running LiFePO4 battery banks to power their daytime usage from the nighttime tariff.
It will take some time to be more widespread, but I think this and small 7kW stations here and there (like the ones from Source London) charging will be the technical solution.
As for how this will be incentives, I don't expect to see much until ICE are banned. 65% to 75% of households in the UK have off-street parking, that's more than enough for charging providers to get established and have different types of cost effective chargers. Once ICE are banned, then there will probably be incentives to cover dead zones. Unfortunately, that's usually how it goes and people living there are usually getting things last, like for broadband, 5G.
Not always a thing. Plenty of "dense" neighbourhoods have less-than-ideal transport systems. Few of even the most dense run 24/7 bus/train service. Not everyone works a 9-5 job near a bus station. Im in a dense area, in an apparment building beside the largest hospital. Bus service doesn't start until 6am, meaning it isnt an option for my work. Nearest passenger train is hundreds of miles away.
Pick a random terraced road in Bristol [1] or Birmingham [2] or London [3] or Norwich [4] and you'll find terraced house residents are not yet living without cars.
If our nation's goals require such people to live without cars, I would say we're a long way off - and we're not particularly moving in that direction either. Hell, the current government's plan for the next election is essentially the opposite.
[1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/JUVD3xy4qRuP78VP8 [2] https://maps.app.goo.gl/CGfDGEibG3zQij8MA [3] https://maps.app.goo.gl/TXZYFuuQC3aQiam56 [4] https://maps.app.goo.gl/srs27pyGuzobhp1V9
A modern minivan can get myself, 3 passengers and all their luggage from the bay area to LA without even stopping for gas. In the event that we start without a full tank, the gas stop in middle adds 150 seconds to the trip.
This simply isn't possible yet with an EV. I expect it will maybe happen someday, but not yet.
As for putting the most miles on long trips: Say I drive 10 miles a day to work and back, and I drive to LA only once a month. Hey presto, most of my driving miles are on the rare but long journey.
To me, an EV is a no-brainer, in fact I was test driving the Mercedes EV just yesterday. The only thing stopping me from getting one is that my ten-year-old car is still fine. Definitely not getting a new ICE, though.
I don't know where you got this number from - a new 7.2kW charger is £400, and I'm sure you can get it cheaper if you buy several hundred of them. They are hardly expensive devices now. Yes there's the cost of installation too - but 10k is an extremely unreasonable number.
Furthermore, if I did want to include such stops, why would I want to confine myself to the dingy dirty corner of some backwater Walmart parking lot?
With my high range ice car I can stop anywhere along the scenic way for as long or as short as I want.
You know that this is only a temporary condition, right?
>>why would I want to confine myself to the dingy dirty corner of some backwater Walmart parking lot?
I don't know, why would you? Are those the only charging options you have?
>>With my high range ice car I can stop anywhere along the scenic way for as long or as short as I want.
You can do that in an electric car too.
Most busy corridors like sf-LA have the well known charge stations full and backed up making the delay multiple times longer.
The point about stopping wherever is that my stops won't have to be near any out of the way chargers. Of course an EV can stop wherever, but it also requires a pilgramage to somewhere I never wanted to go.
Don't do it and health problems could quickly appear. Like back pain, herniated discs, at the very least. Not to mention the risk of drowsiness induced car accidents.
I don'l like to refuel in a busy gas station either, but stopping and stretching is recommended.
That's less than 15 minutes a month at a gas station. Still beats the pants off the 20 minutes each way for the ev on the long trip.
And let's say we do make bathroom stops (kids or whatever); why should the needs of the car dictate when and for how long we stop?
When I was a kid my dad would threaten to leave us behind if we took over 10 minutes dragging out a bathroom stop. I don't see any reason to tolerate a car that takes twice that long to recharge.
On a recent trip I did pull over for a bathroom stop at a gas station. The prices were too high (understandable, only option for many miles) so I didn't buy any gas. In and out, no time lost.
At no time do I want to park in the back of an economically depressed store to sit in my car for 20 minutes watching a crack head defecate in the next parking stall over. If I have time to stop, I want to stop at scenic overlooks and the like.
Look, all I'm saying is when EV charging (or battery swap, or whatever) gets to the turn around time of a gas station I'll be all over it.
Unless I'm dehydrated, no, I generally have to piss more often than every 6 hours, and it's unreasonable to ask a passenger to hold it that long unless they specifically say that can.
Perhaps mandated 50% charging places in every supermarket carpark?
I have a friend in this situation. He charges it at other places, although the council are apparently going to dig a small trench in the pavement (free of charge) to allow him to run a charging cable from his house to the car without disrupting foot traffic.
But that's still contingent on being able to park right outside his house, which is a rare luxury.
Supercharging in itself is easy enough too.
My EV has a big battery (given) but im charging publicly for nearly 2 years but my company already plans charging stations next year and other locations of my company already have them.
BP just order $100m of Tesla chargers.
QuickTrip (gas stations) around me have 2+ chargers.
Gas stations will need to have chargers to stay in business (and electrification will impact their business); With 5% electrification, gas stations have already lost ~5% of their business, if they can recoup 2% from people without high speed charging at home or for road trips, they can make up in margins (especially as a 20 min charge up is more likely to get a user in store than a 5 minute fill up)
Grocery chains, working locations, state parks, county parks have been incentivized to put chargers. So have local shopping centers.
That means - total energy independence. I can get a solar roof and no longer need "the government" ie, a bunch of criminals, to "help" me.
Strangely this is never on the news. Ever. Go figure.
Possible but it would be highly inconvenient and people wouldn't like the consequences. At the very least we need referendums on all the big contentious issues.
The petroleum industry did just fine without government funding the building of gas stations. It took over 10 years from the introduction of the model T until gasoline outsold kerosene in this country. Not the best metric to compare against, just saying that these things take time.
The mainstreaming of EVs is coming. It's just taking more time than early adopters would like. Part of the problem is that many early adopters assumed that their EVs we're shiny and perfect like their Apple products, etc. So there's frustration that things aren't as glossy and simple as they'd like.
The market is working correctly. Demand for EVs isn't there. Give it time. Maybe a decade or two. And most cars will be EVs.
Is this because you actively want cars to be less efficient/more expensive/more cumborsome to use and maintain?
Which is a valid viewpoint, but your comment could be read as suggesting that this is somehow greener or cheaper tor simpler than BEVs, which it isn't.
For example, I'm assuming that the "better public transport" you envision is electric, and battery electric wherever that makes sense (which is in quite a lot of places, even trams with overhead lines in busy cities can benefit from batteries).
But the majority of use cases at this point is - EVs are way better. City driving, less than 100 miles per day, which is what most people do in most countries, charge at home, etc.
I suspect people overestimate the frequency in which they drive 250 miles a day.
No.
The nice thing about fuel cars is you almost never need to think about range beyond the refueling visit to a gas station once every week or two. If you're going on an extended road trip, you know you could skip a dozen gas stations and still be fine.
I drove an EV before alongside a fuel car, and I constantly considered whether the bloody thing had enough range for the day or journey. The constant mental load, light as it was, is something I don't have to deal with driving fuel cars. Having ease of mind is priceless.
Maybe it has more to do with how much you need to drive each day?
If you’re putting in triple digits of miles every day, then you have a very different set of constraints compared to someone commuting up to 40 miles a day, which is the United States average.
OTOH, if the EV is at home, it's plugged in and is always sitting at 80% full. No load.
If that's your frequency of gas fillups, and you have a garage charger, the same is true for an EV. (If you lived in an apartment where you couldn't plug in regularly, perhaps not.)
So there I was, constantly considering whether the bloody thing had enough range for the day. It's a worry I can do without, and so batteries will need to see exponential improvements before I'll consider one over a good old fuel tank and an engine.
https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/
They might be saying "In an ideal world I'd drive a gas car, but the electric car is good enough where I'd rather not pay double." I don't think the person I was responding to was saying they "sucked", just that they had drawbacks.
California: 423970 km²
If anyone knows about it, I'd be interested to explore this further.
My understanding is that in some parts of Canada it's common to plug your currently petrol/diesel car into an electricity socket overnight to provide a low-level of heating (otherwise the car would be impossible to start in the morning) - is this level of heating insufficient for an EV?
Alternatively how much electricity would be wasted spending some power to keep batteries at a warm enough temperature to prevent performance degradation when charging? Are we talking a few percent or a double/tripling of power costs?
The problem is that driving EVs in the cold costs a lot more energy. I've got a Ford Mustang Mach E for about 2.5 years now. In the winter the range that Ford claims drops by about 30 to 35%. That is a lot of range that goes missing just because the temp drops below 5 degrees Celsius.
Luckily I'm the perfect EV candidate: my daily commute is less than 50% of the total range so I can drive 2 days to the office if needed. And I can charge both at home and at the office.
The main problem that I see is that people cannot charge at home. If you are dependent on fast chargers by the side of the road you are going to have a hard time. The downtime for fast-chargers is enormous: my personal guess would be that they do not reach the 90% uptime. Which is bizar problem to have because a fast-charger and remote monitoring of the charger condition should be a solved problem by now.
The Mach E delivers heat in the most inefficient way possible: resistive heat[0]. Modern EVs from other manufacturers use heat pumps, which are much more efficient. There's still some drop in winter range (like gas cars), but it's nowhere near 35% anymore.[1]
Ford's system is also Rube Goldberg[2]: they use a water-based PTC heater to warm a small isolated coolant loop (complete with its own separate reservoir!), and then run a pump to send it through a liquid-to-air heater core. Obviously done for commonality with an ICE heater core, but the unnecessary weight and complexity shows the compromises to shoehorn an electric drivetrain into a ICE (or even "flex") platform.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00ejq7z4H6g&t=449
[1] https://www.autoevolution.com/news/here-s-how-much-range-a-t...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kHsd3Ocxc
If we look at the total energy consumption for driving in cold conditions, then moving the vehicle along the road needs in the ballpark a similar amount of energy as what is required to heat up the interior of the car to a reasonable temperature and keep it there - cars aren't (and probably can't be) as insulated as houses, so they need quite a lot of energy to stay so much warmer than the outside.
In an ICE, most that heating is done from waste heat of the engine. In an EV, that comes directly out of your range.
I don't think there is a car in production where the heating is coming not from the engine.
Of course there are some cars which do have a resistive heating, but which are those?
> heat pumping through AC
Uhm, the compressor runs from the engine so while the heat is not from it, it's still directly relies on availability of running engine.
Also don't forget that seat heaters are also resistive and most cars in cold climates have them.
I know it (or more like my bum) too damn well, though I didn't think about them in this case.
> small diesels like VW Polo
Makes sense, though as I understood, it's strictly auxiliary till the engine is heated aaaand maybe some additional heating at the parking lot with the engine turned off, though I would wary of this usage, it would drain even the extended battery fast.
Overall it's not quite what I had in my mind (think of space heaters), though yes, there are some parts which can operate independently from the engine, though it's not a primary function for them.
Thanks for the hint.
Kind of. Block heaters help warm the engine coolant which warms engine and the oil, making it less viscous and help it flow properly so that the battery doesn't need to work as hard to crank the engine. They're typically only 400w to 600w draw.
Modern full synthetic oil and a well maintained AGM battery makes it less necessary, it's just a little less wear on the engine overall over the long term. Most folks though don't spring for either since they're a bit more expensive then mineral oil and flooded lead acid batteries.
Skimming the Tesla forums, some said to estimate a drop in range of almost 1/3 in this extreme heat?
A lot of city infra just isn't set up for at-home charging in older cities, and it's a non-trivial retrofit.
Kia, Hyundai (same company I think) are well situated. As are BMW, Mercedes, and obviously Tesla.
But... Toyota? Nowhere to be seen, has some also-ran EVs in production. The old American carmakers - absent. VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing.
The biggest carmakers in the world have a vested interest in keeping EVs off the market for as long as possible.
Ford F-150 electric Lightning truck has production issues, but it exists. Same with the Cadillac LYRIQ. VW's ID.4 is also all-electric.
Tesla and the gigafactory has a head start on the critical component - batteries - but the rest of the industry has started to wake up.
Well I think they're the third EV manufacturer in the world for 2023. BYD is first (I guess mostly in China), Tesla second and Stellantis (Peugeot, Fiat and some American brands I think) fourth.
Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes (didn't even know they made EVs but apparently they do) Toyota and the other brands I'm reading about in these comments are all much further down the charts, so I'm not sure what to think.
Maybe the American market is so different that most commenters here have a warped view of the actual EV market in the rest of the world
Total deliveries in 2022 (incomplete obviously, there are many other manufacturers): Toyota (10,483,024, including Daihatsu), Volkswagen Group (8,262,776), Stellantis (4,488,269), Hyundai (3,944,579), BMW (2,399,630), Mercedes (2,043,900), Tesla (1,313,851).
What do you mean?? There are loads of ID.3 and .4 about here.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/electric...
At €45k you're far from "basic" imho. Not so long ago you were into the premium car category at that price in Europe. In 2010 you could buy a new bmw 335i for that price... or in 2012 two new basic (for real this time) peugeot 308
Not sure about Europe but after the US tax credit on EVs our Niro cost about the same as say an Accord.
I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively.
Marketshare growth is excellent.
Car manufacturers and government regulators bet the farm on mass EV adoption.
Current EVs and EV infrastructure haven't solved the range anxiety/charging issue yet. Suburban US, where most people own a garage, is an outlier.
Waiting 10-15 years for prolific street-level infrastructure to be built out doesn't solve the fact that there are unsold EVs on dealer lots today.
Of course, there are plenty of use cases where range anxiety simply isn't relevant. Ditto why marketshare is still growing and will likely continue to grow.
The problem with resistance of the existing auto industry is that if everyone buys EVs the big American carmakers go out of business. GM, Ford, etc have nothing, no technology to compete, their EVs are still crap, they are unable to catch up. So are many Japanese carmakers also BTW.
I was recently in Hong Kong - a good 50% of cars there are EVs thanks to tax breaks - no taxes on EVs while other cars are heavily taxed, so that makes even high end EVs cheaper than mid range gas cars. I think I tried every single model EV using Uber, Mercedes, BMW, and Tesla primarily, they're all really great EVs, great cars, great range, great comfort, obviously insane acceleration. Just better cars.
There's also a range of Chinese EVs coming up - didn't test I guess they are too rare to show up on Uber.
American carmakers then spread all sorts of FUD about EVs such that my facebook feed is full of people who really believe EVs are worse for the environment than their exploding mineral oil machines. They hold back all development through propaganda, lawmaking, political influence, anything and everything they can do - because they can easily act like a mafia. They can't easily compete with the good EVs of the world. Or at all.
Situation report complete.
I'd buy a used $5k piece of shit over that any day. I'm as interested in cars as I am in hammers, as long as it gets me from a to b I absolutely don't give a shit.
$30k is like 5+ years of saving for a lot of people, even in the west. That's a lot of money for a liability.
For the price of a modern EV you can buy a flat in many region of the developed world too...
Even the shittiest EV you can get from Dacia is above most people budget, it does o-60mph in like 20 seconds and can't go faster than ~75mph
But alas, now people get into debt for TVs and smartphones, so what do I know, I must be a boomer!
Aside from low rates though I agree that there's not much point in getting a loan if you're able to comfortabely buy the car with cash, although many/most car buyers don't have that kind of financial flexibility.
There's literally nowhere I can legally drive at 75mph. I'm glad EVs are being more sensible about top speeds. My 40 minute daily commute has a top speed of 70mph and an average of just under 20! That's the reality of urban speed limits and heavy traffic where something like the Dacia might fit well. But I agree, it is under-powered and won't be a fun drive carrying even one person, let alone carrying five. The next generation should be more interesting.
I would buy an EV, I love those things. But between fitting a charger in the garage and getting a reasonably priced 2nd hand EV I would have to expend like $20+k. Which is much MUCH more than what I would save up in fuel through its lifespan. Not really happening unless I get some help from the government to purchase an EV and my town hall puts up some chargers near.
You solution is ideal and I don’t think you should change a thing. I’d love to see more personal car sharing, both electric and gas. Electric cars with a range over 200 is a big waste of battery that should go towards something else, like a bicycle.
Even my old car is the equivalent of 50 electric bicycles.
> ...and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it!
If you have a home charging station. This immediately excludes a - very - large number of people in the EU and metropolitan US who live in multifamily housing or older towns and cities.
> an electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
What are we comparing? A Tesla Model 3 against most non-premium cars? Of course. An MG5 EV/Roewe EI5 against a BMW B48 or a Honda K20C1? Questionable.
Let's not forget that there are plenty of fuel efficient 6 cylinder mild hybrid platforms that, quite frankly, compete very well with premium EVs. Range anxiety aside, are they necessarily better? Again, questionable, but the overall package that comes with an M340d or an A6 55TFSI is better than the equivalent Model 3/S (or even, imo, any of BMW or Audi's EVs).
It's not a species-ending threat (at least, to humans). That said, the realistic outlook for global warming is bad enough.
EV is a technology in transition. It will get there. It's getting there. It's not "there" yet for every use case.
Why? A large part isn't because of the technology, it's about population density. The countries that pollute the most also happen to have sub-par public transportation networks. Range anxiety isn't an issue when the default option for most people is light rail.
The solution is likely going to come down to: 1. Urban planning. Car friendly zoning, building codes, minimum parking requirements, and other regulations are starting be reversed in the US. It's already happened across most of the EU.
2. Switch to low emissions electricity generation. Power plants are still the leading emitter, full stop.
3. EV adoption. My point above wasn't an argument against EVs as a technology, but a statement of fact that - as a technology in transition - it's not superior for all major use cases. This should change over the next couple of decades.
> Power plants are still the leading emitter, full stop.
is not true, at least not regionally. In Massachusetts, for example, power is 20% of emissions while transportation is 37%.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-clean-energy...
What this implies is that there needs a greater density of charging stations - which Tesla is anyway working on this. So in a Tesla super charger, if I can charge to 80% in 5 mins and get 150-160 mile range am good. Even if I don’t have a garage at home, this should work with appropriate alerting, routing etc.
An electric car for the non-enthusiasts, for those who just need a car to get stuff done.
The core issue is that it's not the case for most people. If you can afford an EV, have a house with a garage where you can plug in the car - you're basically a corner case.
The reality for most people in Europe: car should cost 5 - 10k EUR (used), 10 - 20k new, it'll be parked on the street and need to be practical both for driving in a city as well as for longer trips.
We're still pretty far away from any of these goals. I imagine something like Skoda Enyaq, with 800 km - 1000 km of range, for 25 - 30'000 EUR max, with tax included (an equivalent to VW Golf Variant).
Just open google maps, satellite view, and look into any major European city. Given the known ~70% urbanisation of the EU, it seems feasible. From my own, anecdotal experience, I would say way more than most cars are parked outside. Most of the times a block away. Some annoying times, much farther.
45-55% in most countries (France seems like an outlier), but even that is above 20%.
I'd guesstimate that the cars parked "american style" (in a private garage or on the driveway of the house) in Europe is < 10%. You really need to live in a small town or a village to find these setups.
I can see a lot of articles / comments on various portals where the authors are explaining how easy is to use EVs - you charge it in your own garage over night and then drive to office or to do groceries. I can't overstate how unusual use-case it is.
Most people where I live (Switzerland) would never consider using a car to get to work. We walk / cycle / take a bus, tram or train. Same with groceries. The cars are on the street, you use it maybe once every week or two, to go skiing, move something large or go for a longer trip. Average yearly distance per car is ~13'000 km (~8'000 miles). Using an EV is really a huge huge hassle.
Most car buyers have a different mindset. Your rationale doesn't resonate with them.
A good amount of them actually enjoy what you described as "garbage". They don't hear "loud" noises, they hear a pleasant sound.
But these people clinging to ICE because... so many bad reasons. Basically manufacturing consent.
Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. The initial offerings from Toyota & Mazda have been terrible. I am surprised that the Ford Lightning hasn't done better. It's a great truck, that can't seem to compete with itself (cheaper gasoline versions). I'll be curious to see how the electric Escalade does. That thing looks incredible and I think is the right brand / market for a premium SUV.
You mean traditional American automakers? I can see a few compelling electric cars from European manufacturers.
And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-(
I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner.
They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.
That's... A lot of money for a car.
We just bought a nice 5 door hatchback for 19kcad (25k cad all in) . It's not a comparable car on any granular metric, but it's a car! It takes me places! At literally one Third the price.
If I want to go for fun, I can get a wrx for 35k or gti for 40. If I want a practical car I can get a minivan for 40k or any number of (ugh) SUVs.
Tesla 3 on the other hand is a luxury, not a practical choice. It'll never ever ever pay off on cost/economy basis. And that's ok! Luxury cars exist and are great,for those who want and can afford them. It may be fun and enjoyable and status symbol, but it's the Apple of cars. Some people are into it while many of us balk at the value proposition (or perceived lack thereof).
So yes - it's just. So. Expensive! For me at least, when I look at other options and alternatives :).
edit/addition: Same is the case for most other EVs. Nissan Leaf starts at 42k CAD, Mazda 3 starts at 24k CAD. Ioniq 5 starts at 51K CAD, VW Taos starts at 30k.
Basically, EVs are $12k - $25k more than ICE cars, where I'm at. And $12K is a lot of money! That's how much whole cars used to cost as recently as 3 years ago (and you can still get a brand new car for $15k though you probably shouldn't:). Again, it's a bit of HN bubble, or possibly California special circumstances, where Tesla can even begin to be discussed as an affordable :-/
https://www.kia.ca/en/vehicles/2023/rio/specs?trimCode=RO853...
Background, FWIW :)
* We have a Honda Odyssey as the primary family vehicle for ourselves and our kids. It's a very nice, very practical, very large car. As a family car travelling with kids, we love it! You do feel a little ridiculous if you're driving somewhere as a lone driver though. Did I mention it's big?? :-)
* I work from home and my wife had a hybrid job so we got away with Minivan as the primary car, occasionally supported by my 20yo Subaru WRX
* However, our occasional second car is increasingly a rustbucket, as as my wife needs to go to work physically more, the 20yo WRX (manual gear etc) is less and less a viable option for us
* We bought a used car this summer, safetied, from people we are kinda-sorta connected through our network, and ended up being completely fleeced. After several mechanics review ended up writing off the entire car. Between that and other people's experiences and long searches, we are completely soured on used car market right now, at least here in Ontario, in terms of prices and reliability. It's insane.
* We need a cheap basic car for work commute and situations when we need to do two things at once. We are still paying monthly financing on the Oddyssey so our budget is limited. We don't necessarily need it to last forever but we need it to be basic and largely reliable and comfortable for next 5-8 years.
* We looked at Mitsubishi Mirage, which is currently the cheapest new car in Canada, but it had too many tradeoffs
* Kia Rio LX+ is the second cheapest car in Canada but is a significant step up. It drives fine, looks fine, comfortable, visibility is good (shockingly a rarity these days), roomy enough (I'm 189cm / 6'2"), has A/C and Carplay/Android Auto etc. Honestly not missing ANYthing I need for a basic, practical car.
* Massive bonus: great, great control scheme. I love the control scheme of Hyundai & Kia last few years. Reasonable buttons in reasonable places, reasonably well found without looking for them. SO MANY modern cars sacrifice usability for some perceived fashion/looks, and it's a massive turn off. Kia's controls are like a Nikon DSLR - sure they're somewhat "old fashioned", but they're based on all the usability lessons learned we have at our disposal. It works and works well. Thus endeth the sermon :->
* FWIW, In Canada at least, the availability of cars I personally like is dwindling. Manufacturers are doubling down on the large SUVs (ugh!), and subcompact hatchbacks (Mazda 2, Ford Fiesta etc) are completely disappearing. I understand it's even the last year for the Kia Rio, and I can't seem to find regular Golf/Rabbit (only GTI/R) either.
Depending on if your Hyundai 5-door is the Accent or Elantra GT, you might find the current Rio a very natural replacement :)
The other car we looked at is the Subaru Impreza or RS; that's the car we would've liked to get, especially given my old WRX, but given our usage patterns, paying $10k more was not a good value for us at this time.
Hope that helps!
After that’s rebates and “est. gas savings of $3,000 over 3 years”. So that’s $31,490. About 25% more than 25k.
Misleading on price does a disservice to potential buyers.
I included sales tax. Without that it's still $30,630, but I don't think it's fair to include government subsidies but exclude government taxes when determining the effective cost of the car.
Here's the breakdown:
https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/inventory/new/m3?arrangeby=relev...
Prices range $53k - $65k CAD (prior to any fees / taxes etc), which would make the cheapest one 38k, in line with price you indicated.
Our incentive though is "up to $5k CAD" which is up to ~3,600USD rebate.
(basically, nowhere near 25k USD however it is sliced :( )
The model 3 is a great handling car - closest compare is a 2012ish BMW 335xi. It’s heavier and you can feel it in turns, but you can feel the low center of gravity, and the grip/acceleration curve compensates it out. For street use the tires grip and the car overall overpowers its weight. The suspension is good, really reminding me of the BMW. Note suspension is tuned like a BMW with surprisingly similar dampening but overall is not as mature as the 335xi was - on super bumpy roads the tires will stay in contact with the ground but you will feel the difference. The model 3 not going to be close to a Miata, but in its size class it’s a great time. I would totally buy one, and almost did; it always puts a smile on my face.
The model Y is not nearly as maneuverable, but the low center of gravity really helps in turns. It’s better than I expected from a CUV/SUV. Not in the same league as the model 3.
Tesla is really good about test drives - I’d highly recommend it. Even if you never buy one, it’s a solid experience.
Model 3, NIO, BYD, and to some extent VW and even the i3 or Zoe have much nicer handling. Their low center of gravity and perfect 50/50 weight distribution should actually give you more grip and stability than the equivalent gas burner.
The original post did not specify the EV they spoke about, and I disagreed with generic comment that "ICE drives like shit, EV drives awesome!".
This is not to claim EVs don't exist that handle well! "Sporty EVs exist" can be taken as a given I think. But so do ICE! :)
It has not been my personal experience that moderately priced EV (not "cheap EVs", as such a thing doesn't exist here in Canada), are particularly well handling for their class, for all the other pros and cons that they may have.
FFS if it got 100 miles to the charge it would be the perfect EV for most daily driver scenarios.
Also, the number of people who can’t charge in their own yard or driveway or garage is significant. I would never, ever drive am EV without my own plug at home.
The car definitely drives differently in the two modes. It's no Tesla, but electric acceleration is much more responsive and faster than a traditional sedan, like a Corolla or a Civic. Driving in gas mode feels like driving a Prius.
If it fits your needs, I recommend looking into plug-in hybrids. But I'm no car enthusiast. My car is functional, not a status symbol.
We are in the era where the super cars I grew up with are handily lapped by a honda accord. Driving has never been better than right now.
Modern Hybrids (not Priuses) drive like normal cars.
>than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today
I have a 181HP Honda Civic with said turbo 4cyl, it's not noisy and is quieter than my original v6 Accord. A little less power (30HP less) but the fuel economy is insane, I average 40 MPG sitting in NYC traffic for 2 hours. 35 MPG on my normal commutes.
These small engines are fine, the problem is what automakers do with them.
On top of that, I can (and have) jump into my car with a close to empty fuel tank, and go on a 1000 km journey without worrying about how and when I'll fill up. EVs don't have that, because even if your route has a lot of public chargers, it will still take you way longer to charge up.
Edit: I'm not saying EVs are unreliable, just that I'm not gonna pay cash to be part of that experiment. I'll get in once the technology has proven itself.
This sounds more like a defeated competitor than a leader.