Exactly. That's why it's just expected that the PRC managed to acquire the personnel records of all US federal employees, and it's not a big deal that the PRC stole data on the F-35. Same with industrial espionage, states are just going to keep spying on each other, why get upset about it? It's just what states do.
If your country doesn't value private personal data(unless it is medical) it should be entirely expected to anyone with money to get it. And countries tend to have deep pockets. So them getting data works entirely by design.
The countries have every right to be upset, but this is standard practice and everyone does it. There's a reason why counterintelligence agencies exist.
My comment was a preemptive response to the inevitable naive and/or grandstanding rants people here are apt to deliver on the subject. E.g., your own comment.
But not everyone gives their whistleblowers a chemical lobotomy, locked away in a notoriously oppressive torture palace without recourse or any justice, when they reveal information that is vital to the future of humanity...
"Everyone spies on everyone - so therefore its okay to do it"
"We will annihilate whistleblowers when they reveal uncomfortable secrets - because thats okay to do when it suits our national interest"
The whistleblowers have revealed that in fact, NO - nobody spies (violating
billions of human beings' rights) at the same grandiose and extensive scale as the criminal 5-eyes coalition currently operating the worlds biggest human rights violations (GCHQ, NSA, Pine Gap, etc.)
I wish you would be more specific about who you're referring to with the "torture palace" talk.
Also, it's quite a stretch to say that privacy violations are "the world's biggest human rights violations" when there's currently much more violent things going on around the globe (genocide in Xinjiang, Sudan for example).
Your comment also ignores the amount of surveillance done by other countries, notably China. Your biased are glaringly obvious by leaving that out, as it's one of the most populous countries in the world and also one of (if not the most) surveilled societies.
Julian Assange is in the worlds most notorious torture palace, currently being chemically lobotomized.
And the NSA's violations of human rights at massive scale fare outpaces anything China can do. Your whataboutism of China is noted. Americans fail consistently to take responsibility for their nations heinous and vile human rights abuses, all the while calling out 'other nations' from a position of moral authority that is just fallacious.
I remember this. It was seen as an extremely serious breach of trust here in Europe. I remember the media trying to downplay it and dumdums on facebook spreading nonsense like "This is nothing, everybody spies. move on, sheeesh".
Well, like..it is? Are you saying it was an actual breach of trust? Spies spy on everyone, they even spy on their own citizens. Next you might tell me EU spy agencies don't spy on their own people or other EU countries.
You're calling me a 12 year old because you refuse to confront your naive presumptions? Ok adult person, let me use adult words: cladenstine intellige agencies specifically exist to enact espionage and sabotage explicitly violating both national laws and international treaties. They have rules such as how diplomatic cover spies work and non-cover spies work and how countries react to them when discovered but their job is specifically this. Not war time intelligence or just spying on poor countries. Military intelligence exists as the name implies for spying on militaries. Clandestine intelligence officers and their assets break laws, treaties and trust on your behalf without telling you so you can act surprised and pretend your bloody hands are clean.
I'm not going to be debating you in circles. You chose to completely ignore my points and misrepresent them, then insulted me. You should go back to reddit where you'll be plenty popular.
Edit: In fact this is so bad, if you were talking to the EU version of yourself, they'd be telling you you're talking nonsense as none of this ever really happened. The US never spies on their allies.
I don't even have a reddit account and you initiated ad-hominm when calling me a 12 year old and ironically saying "i don't mean to". But let's drop the silly personal attacks?
> You chose to completely ignore my points and misrepresent them
If you say so.
You literally have chinese police stations in every major eu capital. You have like a dozen countries spying on any major eu country at least at any given time. But "america bad".
Sure. Theguardian and the bbc. I opine that news sources outside of a country yet well interested in the events of a country tend to be the most objective. In this case the UK. Al-jazeera is ok but they are very biased in middle eastern events in which the US often is involved.
That's sort of the point of spying, european countries might as well be on China or Russia's side and they will in turn spy on the US to make sure the US is not subverting things in their own countries. Germany for example has gas pipelines with russia, they would want to know if US intel bombed it at the start of ukraine war or if it was actually russia.
Spies are not soldiers, spying is not considered attacking in the same sense as war. It is collecting info so policy makers can make the best decision.
And if it so happens EU leaders want to side with russia or china, US intel will know in advance and try to run interference.
When trump was elected, UK intel used a retired MI6 agent to publicize the intel they collected on the american citizen and president elect. And the US was grateful.
Regardless if a spy is to be classified as a soldier or not doesn't change the fact that people will be upset when allies spy on them. Which will make them think that the US is bad.
> And if it so happens EU leaders want to side with russia or china, US intel will know in advance and try to run interference.
... and if the US is to interfere with the democratic process of its allies people will think that the US is bad.
> And the US was grateful.
I bet you there are millions of citizens of the USA who are extremely upset that the US government is trying to circumvent laws made to protect them, by using foreign spy agencies.
This also happens to be another reason that millions of people think the US is bad
> ...doesn't change the fact that people will be upset
Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens all the time between most/many allies. We do not live in a nice and peaceful world.
> This also happens to be another reason that millions of people think the US is bad
People think that because the US leadership and public is willing to criticize themselves and export that attitude along with every other stufd the US exports. France and Russia alone have toppled more regimes in the last few years in africa than the US in the last few decades. Chinese spies in every country basicaly. I mean, let's be a bit candid here, the US CIA does not just work for the US but for NATO and EU's interests as well. All those military bases in europe didn't spontaneously appear. While the US cleans up after colonial europe's mess in the past 70 years, europe developed a moral sense of arrogant superiority. Name me one country the US fought with in its entire history that was not a european former colony? If honesty and self awareness was common europe would celebrate and treasure the CIA and the US for post-war peace, security and prosperity we all enjoy and for every war and chaos averted so far. The glass is half full in this case.
Agreed partly because there are nations who backstab their allies by wiretapping their leaders.
> People think that because the US leadership and public is willing to criticize themselves and export that attitude along with every other stufd the US exports
?
> France and Russia alone have toppled more regimes in the last few years in africa than the US in the last few decades.
okay but France is another ally of the US? If we where to compare Russia vs US worldwide since the end of WWII who do you think would lead?
> Chinese spies in every country basicaly.
I thought that your point was that spies was something we should just learn to accept, and something that we could make us of? Maybe the rest of the world could make use of these spies to make sure that you don't get a president that's not good for you? How would you like that?
> While the US cleans up after colonial europe's mess in the past 70 years, europe developed a moral sense of arrogant superiority.
Right so all US wars are humanitarian efforts? Where did you learn about this, in a Hollywood movie?
> Name me one country the US fought with in its entire history that was not a european former colony?
Germany is one. Spain and Italy would be to others, do you need more examples? Not that I understand what point you are trying to make.
> I mean, let's be a bit candid here, the US CIA does not just work for the US but for NATO and EU's interests as well.
What you think is the EU's interest maybe isn't necessarily what people in the EU think is in their interest.
> If honesty and self awareness was common europe would celebrate and treasure the CIA and the US for post-war peace, security and prosperity we all enjoy and for every war and chaos averted so far. The glass is half full in this case.
> If we where to compare Russia vs US worldwide since the end of WWII who will lead
Hah! If you are gonna pull back the date, let's pull them back all the way to when both nations existed in 1776. How many african and pacific nations did France topple? Add that to the count and the US is dramatically less.
> I thought that your point was that spies was something we should just learn to accept, and something that we could make us of? Maybe the rest of the world could make use of these spies to make sure that you don't get a president that's not good for you? How would you like that?
Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it. And in that context i was making the same point that spies are common and in peace times much more tolerated than in war. I don't know about the rest of the world but the brits did try and most of the US was greatful for their attmept (steele dossier). If their intent was malicious then I would blame FBI counterintel and it's failure more than bad spies being bad.
> Right so all US wars are humanitarian efforts? Where did you learn about this, in a Hollywood movie?
Hell no, but they wouldn't have happened without colonial europeans drawing random lines on a map. Even much of africa's economic woes and civil wars are a result of in-fighting due to these random lines. The US as a superpower also has like 800 foreign military bases and the largest navy in history which along with its vast intel community have kept enough peace both for the US and EU. It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from. It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything the CIA does but much of US interference has the backing of its allies, except in south america. Most of US's enemies consider Europe in the same boat and they will find it easier to attack europe due to geography.
> Germany is one. Spain and Italy would be to others, do you need more examples? Not that I understand what point you are trying to make.
True and korea too i suppose, i meant outside of coalition wars where the US fought on its own for obvious reasons. The point was that former colonies get left in shambles from the ottoman empire's middle east to SE asia and US spies and military intervene. Much of the toppling people think of happened in the cold war where anti-imperialist sentiment all over the world was being used to expand the russian and chinese communist empire and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then.
> What you think is the EU's interest maybe isn't necessarily what people in the EU think is in their interest.
Sure it is, so long as what I think is let EU people decide whatever they want instesd if putin and xi decide for them for example.
> Well it hasn't been peaceful at all?
Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history. And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war. Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts? Much of europe now fights wars like the US in remote countries, no hiding in bomb shelters and and sending your kids off to war with other europeans. Although putin might break that record soon.
> Hah! If you are gonna pull back the date, let's pull them back all the way to when both nations existed in 1776. How many african and pacific nations did France topple? Add that to the count and the US is dramatically less.
My point was exactly that you'll get vastly different results depending on what range of time you choose. That being said I'm still not sure if the French would take the lead on that one, which obviously would be quite a project to investigate...
> Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it.
Na of course not, and a spade will be a spade, and backstabbing backstabbing, no matter how much you try to snake yourself out of it.
> It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from.
The US supported the Soviet union militarily enabling them to put half of Europe under communist dictatorship.
> It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places?
No because the CIA are torturing people and are paying people to rape, murder and torture for fun and profit, I don't think there really is anyone who can claim the moral highground.
That doesn't mean that I won't say that it's immoral and wrong for these countries to do this, and perhaps more importantly shortsighted and countraproductive...
> ... and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then.
People in Europe complained a lot!
> Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history.
Again as with the example above that really really depends on how you measure it.
> And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war
Yeah so you seem to have a bit of a tendency to say that there's peace everywhere and everywhere apart from places and times that you omit from the list more or less arbitrarily.
It's like saying that the period 1939-1949 was really peaceful in Sweden and Switzerland.
> Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts?
In that case overseas French territories would make it seem way way less peaceful.
It is diplomatically when they are found and it is made public. But when they are not made public, usually the counterintel spies keep an eye on them. Of course the US spies on the UK to make sure their gov is doing ok, and the UK spies on the US to make sure their interests are kept even though they are as close of an ally as you can imagine. But spies act on behalf of the president/prime minister ultimately, if there is no political interest the spies won't actually do much. But if marie lepenn (or whatever her name is) becomes the leader of france for example, the US would want to know if anything crazy that affects US interests is being decided by her. When trump was elected, are EU countries supposed to hope he doesn't leak their critical intel the US already has to putin? Of course they'll need to collect intel. But usually it just means paying an asset to leak info, when it becomes permanently installed spying infrastructure it becomes to embarassing for the target when discovered.
Aha and if a bad guy becomes president in the US, and a good guy becomes president in France, should we be happy about the supposedly benevolent CIA interfering in the French democracy then as well or what?
No, you should be happy the CIA did nothing because even if they did you would not know about it. But if it so happens they did and you find out, you should feel angry but you should not pretend it is business unusual. Of course espionage is not election interfernece neccesarily unless you consider things like leaking info to french or US media interference (legit info not disinformation). Friendly countries spy on each other to protect each other not to harm. Like anything intent, context and relationship is important.
It's not ok for people to touch your butt for example unless people are your chosen sexual partner. It's not ok to kill a person, unless your intent is to defend yourself from mortal peril. It's not ok to spy on your friend, unless you are concerned your friend might commit suicide. In some cases it makes the act excusable and in others it makes the anger less inflamed.
> No, you should be happy the CIA did nothing because even if they did you would not know about it.
Doing research on the CIA has made me expect them to be up to absolutely no good, and frankly this is something that makes me sad and not happy.
> But if it so happens they did and you find out, you should feel angry but you should not pretend it is business unusual.
I'm glad that you understand that this makes me upset, but you are mistaken in believing that I do not think that this isn't "business as usual", in fact I've come to expect far far worse acts from the CIA.
> Of course espionage is not election interfernece neccesarily unless you consider things like leaking info to french or US media interference (legit info not disinformation).
No espionage isn't necessarily election interference, but if there is something that the CIA is known for then it's election interference.
Well it turns out that public opinion can be shaped not by telling lies, which is easily combated, but rather by not telling the whole truth.
> It's not ok for people to touch your butt for example unless people are your chosen sexual partner.
Really?
> It's not ok to kill a person, unless your intent is to defend yourself from mortal peril. It's not ok to spy on your friend, unless you are concerned your friend might commit suicide.
Are you saying that the CIA was afraid that Angela Merkel was about to kill someone, commit suicide and or was being sexually aroused by having people watching her?
Would it be okay for someone to spy on their friends, to see if they are trying to make a deal with somebody they don't like, so that they can put a spanner in the wheels on that deal? I mean if you doesn't like somebody then it's probably for the best for your friend not to have anything to do with that person.
Is it okay for you to put spyware on your girlfriends phone to make sure that she doesn't cheat on you? You could always argue that cheating is immoral, and you are only trying to make sure that she doesn't become a bad person (according to you).
Would you agree with me installing cameras in your home, for your personal protection. I mean you can totally trust a random person on the internet with your personal life, especially since I might be in a different legal jurisdiction so that you can practice your faith in strangers without having to worry about getting protection from your local law enforcement.
> In some cases it makes the act excusable and in others it makes the anger less inflamed.
Yeah and in a lot of cases making excuses instead of apologies, after getting caught red handed makes the anger along with the contempt more inflamed.
> When trump was elected, are EU countries supposed to hope he doesn't leak their critical intel the US already has to putin?
Yeah so people in Europe are really upset of US wiretapping because they don't trust the US government with that information, is it really that difficult to wrap your head around that concept?
A lot of people in Europe believe that the US hardly ever have had a good candidate, and that Trump is just another addition of a long list of despicable presidents. So if you imagine how it would feel like if you tought every US government is as shocking as the Trump administration, you might start to understand how people outside of the US feels about this, if that is of any interest to you of course.
> But usually it just means paying an asset to leak info,
Which some people would consider manipulating someone to commit high treason.
> Yeah so people in Europe are really upset of US wiretapping because they don't trust the US government with that information, is it really that difficult to wrap your head around that concept?
No, that was never in dispute though, strawman argument?
> A lot of people in Europe believe that the US hardly ever have had a good candidate, and that Trump is just another addition of a long list of despicable presidents. So if you imagine how it would feel like if you tought every US government is as shocking as the Trump administration, you might start to understand how people outside of the US feels about this, if that is of any interest to you of course
Are you saying if the US president was nicer, US spying would be acceptable? Or are you making my argument for me that precisely for the reasons you mentioned, european intel agencies are spying in/against the US?
> Which some people would consider manipulating someone to commit high treason.
Treason is betrayal as it applies to aiding an enemy, not a trusted ally. And almost never in times of peace. The specific term is espionage not treason. But still a betrayal of trust. Usually assets are just waiting to be bought, it's better for an ally to buy them instead of a hostile country/agent. Lookup the CIA MICE acronym on how to develop assets.
Think about it this way, not much has changed between EU and US relations even after snowden reveals and trump. Ultimately the interests of both parties are largely aligned and intertwined and embarassments like the US spying solved diplomatically.
But what concerns me is much of both US and EU is too many generarions removed from the chaos of the old world. They are not aware of the treasure of peace and friendly relations we all enjoy. We are debating over a website instead of with bullets from foxholes and the current state of spying is largely a reaction to WW2 and the cold war. It can change both for better and worse, so vote for foreign ministers that will relfect your views and priorities so they can solve this stuff.
> No, that was never in dispute though, strawman argument?
Well that was the point that I was trying to convey, I'm glad that we are in agreement.
> Treason is betrayal as it applies to aiding an enemy, not a trusted ally. And almost never in times of peace. The specific term is espionage not treason. But still a betrayal of trust. Usually assets are just waiting to be bought, it's better for an ally to buy them instead of a hostile country/agent. Lookup the CIA MICE acronym on how to develop assets.
The person who sells the classified information would obviously be the one that commits treason, not the spy agency.
> Are you saying if the US president was nicer, US spying would be acceptable? Or are you making my argument for me that precisely for the reasons you mentioned, european intel agencies are spying in/against the US?
What I am trying to say is that since there is no guarantee that the next president will be good it would be wise never to accept intrusive spying. No I don't think spy agencies should wiretap the phones of their allies leaders, if they are allies. That would be dishonorable and shameful.
> Think about it this way, not much has changed between EU and US relations even after snowden reveals and trump.
Yeah which I think reflects really unfavorably on the politicians in both the EU and the US.
> Ultimately the interests of both parties are largely aligned and intertwined and embarassments like the US spying solved diplomatically.
Diplomacy can still be based on threats of violence, so that doesn't really impress me very much.
> But what concerns me is much of both US and EU is too many generarions removed from the chaos of the old world. They are not aware of the treasure of peace and friendly relations we all enjoy. We are debating over a website instead of with bullets from foxholes and the current state of spying is largely a reaction to WW2 and the cold war. It can change both for better and worse, so vote for foreign ministers that will relfect your views and priorities so they can solve this stuff.
People in Ukraine, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen and many more, might not agree with that. Furthermore Europe is being overrun by refuges created by the turmoil which also seem to point to the fact that things aren't that stable.
You could also argue that during the USSR all the countries in that sphere where living in peace, others would say that they where living in fear of the secret police.
> What I am trying to say is that since there is no guarantee that the next president will be good it would be wise never to accept intrusive spying. No I don't think spy agencies should wiretap the phones of their allies leaders, if they are allies. That would be dishonorable and shameful
Criminals are not usually ashamed, I think the part you don't get is that clandestine arms of spy agencies are essentially state sponsored criminal agencies. Like APT hackers for example, every country hacks other countries (major ones anyways), and of course that is criminal and dishonorable but it is the norm and you have consented to it by your votes.
> Yeah which I think reflects really unfavorably on the politicians in both the EU and the US.
In my experience it is also the people. Most regular people don't care or it is at least not a big deal so long as their economy and security is improving. Politicians are merely representing the people.
> Diplomacy can still be based on threats of violence, so that doesn't really impress me very much
Yes, but people don't bleed or die when threatened, so point still stands.
> People in Ukraine, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen and many more, might not agree with that. Furthermore Europe is being overrun by refuges created by the turmoil which also seem to point to the fact that things aren't that stable
Yes, but speaking of Ukraine, who is the main military support preventing a russian invasion? And do you recall trump being impeached over not helping Ukraine? Did the US owe them that? Who drew the maps in palestine? Brits! Who left sudan in shambles mixing christians and muslims in one country? That's right.. brits. The world is a complex place, my point is not to blame europe or morally justify the CIA. The point is history, context and intentions are plenty and the norm of spying and world relations now has resulted in peace, improvement of poverty by an insane margin and much less wars and death. Despite nukes being a thing, they so far have only been used once! That's not an accident. Wars were very common and frequent. Maybe things can improve but only if we don't forget history. Europe is being overrun because of immigration policy, similar to the US.
> You could also argue that during the USSR all the countries in that sphere where living in peace, others would say that they where living in fear of the secret police.
I would say in relative peace but with little liberty and quality of life. Stalin and Mak were arguably on the same murderous level as hitler and the japanese emperor.
> I think the part you don't get is that clandestine arms of spy agencies are essentially state sponsored criminal agencies
I'd go beyond that and say that they are state sponsored terrorists, which is why I think it's obvious for the US to keep them away from their allies, unless their allies aren't really their allies.
> Yes, but people don't bleed or die when threatened, so point still stands.
I wouldn't be surprised if your state sponsored criminals have killed European citizens in order to bully people into submission, making them enact policies that then would lead to people dying...
> Yes, but speaking of Ukraine, who is the main military support preventing a russian invasion?
Speaking of Ukraine how did a government that provoked the Russians into attacking them come into power?
> And do you recall trump being impeached over not helping Ukraine?
Why would Trump be impeached over helping Ukraine? The US can't even protect it's own border.
> Did the US owe them that?
Well I suppose the US wouldn't want to have military bases that close to Moscow.
> Who drew the maps in palestine? Brits! Who left sudan in shambles mixing christians and muslims in one country? That's right.. brits
So you are saying that two wrongs make a right, and it's okay for the CIA to wiretap German politicians because brits did something bad decades earlier?
> Stalin and Mak were arguably on the same murderous level as hitler and the japanese emperor.
Way worse which is why I don't really like your Pax Americana argument, since it means justifying terrorizing innocent people for economical benefit, and then saying it's a good thing since the subjugated population can't resist any more and there'll be "peace".
Either way you haven't managed to change my mind, and made me believe that its a good thing that the CIA wiretaps its allies and that it would make sense for European nations to start looking elsewhere for allies.
This is only an acceptable state of affairs under the conditions of nationalism.
Human beings operating outside the boundaries of nationalist mental illness, do not care for this sort of behaviour one bit.
It takes a special mentality to justify this violation of human rights at a fundamental scale.
"Everyone spies" == "Everyone murders innocent people they don't like".
This is a violation of human rights, period. No nation state which engages in this activity should be taken seriously when it comes to the human rights record of their government.
I will always judge Americans by the way they handled the Epstein/Maxwell case. One was painfully obviously executed by the FBI to protect pedophiles, the other had a court proceeding where the main focus was on protecting the identities of the pedophiles.
With this level of ignorance, you can even invade and devastate whole countries with the public completely ignoring it. How many here know of the thousands of dead civilians, many children, and millions displaced refugees as the result of the recent US Syria invasion? We're crossing some lines here I didn't think were crossable.
You speak as if "Americans" as a whole group are responsible for the handling of the Epstein case. And you also have considerable certainty that the FBI killed him. Do you have evidence the rest of us don't?
Ah yes, the "each bad incident is the other party's fault" excuse huh. Very convenient excuse whichever party you voted for. The two parties are not all that different in terms of the vast majority of policies anyway.
Even if you think they are so very different, I don't see the other half of Americans doing mass protests against this or that policy. You would think if HALF of all Americans oppose something, there would be mass protests. But there are not. Meaning they don't really oppose it. Which means, yes, they are the same and very much responsible.
For me, it was the illegal invasion of Iraq and cold-blooded murder of 5% of its population.
That burst the "American Dream" bubble for me, cold and hard. I came to see the USA for what it really is - a military junta masquerading as a republic, engaged in wide scale repression of human rights, and indeed human beings as a whole, at immense scales.
Subsequent human rights violations, the existence of the utterly vile NSA, the treatment of Julian Assange - these events have merely added another layer to the shit-cake that is the USA's repressive regime, today.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 89.5 ms ] threadMy comment was a preemptive response to the inevitable naive and/or grandstanding rants people here are apt to deliver on the subject. E.g., your own comment.
"We will annihilate whistleblowers when they reveal uncomfortable secrets - because thats okay to do when it suits our national interest"
The whistleblowers have revealed that in fact, NO - nobody spies (violating billions of human beings' rights) at the same grandiose and extensive scale as the criminal 5-eyes coalition currently operating the worlds biggest human rights violations (GCHQ, NSA, Pine Gap, etc.)
Also, it's quite a stretch to say that privacy violations are "the world's biggest human rights violations" when there's currently much more violent things going on around the globe (genocide in Xinjiang, Sudan for example).
Your comment also ignores the amount of surveillance done by other countries, notably China. Your biased are glaringly obvious by leaving that out, as it's one of the most populous countries in the world and also one of (if not the most) surveilled societies.
And the NSA's violations of human rights at massive scale fare outpaces anything China can do. Your whataboutism of China is noted. Americans fail consistently to take responsibility for their nations heinous and vile human rights abuses, all the while calling out 'other nations' from a position of moral authority that is just fallacious.
Edit: In fact this is so bad, if you were talking to the EU version of yourself, they'd be telling you you're talking nonsense as none of this ever really happened. The US never spies on their allies.
> You chose to completely ignore my points and misrepresent them
If you say so.
You literally have chinese police stations in every major eu capital. You have like a dozen countries spying on any major eu country at least at any given time. But "america bad".
Perhaps Europe should side with the Russians and Chinese instead since apparently all actors will try to spy on us any way?
Spies are not soldiers, spying is not considered attacking in the same sense as war. It is collecting info so policy makers can make the best decision.
And if it so happens EU leaders want to side with russia or china, US intel will know in advance and try to run interference.
When trump was elected, UK intel used a retired MI6 agent to publicize the intel they collected on the american citizen and president elect. And the US was grateful.
> And if it so happens EU leaders want to side with russia or china, US intel will know in advance and try to run interference. ... and if the US is to interfere with the democratic process of its allies people will think that the US is bad.
> And the US was grateful. I bet you there are millions of citizens of the USA who are extremely upset that the US government is trying to circumvent laws made to protect them, by using foreign spy agencies.
This also happens to be another reason that millions of people think the US is bad
Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens all the time between most/many allies. We do not live in a nice and peaceful world.
> This also happens to be another reason that millions of people think the US is bad
People think that because the US leadership and public is willing to criticize themselves and export that attitude along with every other stufd the US exports. France and Russia alone have toppled more regimes in the last few years in africa than the US in the last few decades. Chinese spies in every country basicaly. I mean, let's be a bit candid here, the US CIA does not just work for the US but for NATO and EU's interests as well. All those military bases in europe didn't spontaneously appear. While the US cleans up after colonial europe's mess in the past 70 years, europe developed a moral sense of arrogant superiority. Name me one country the US fought with in its entire history that was not a european former colony? If honesty and self awareness was common europe would celebrate and treasure the CIA and the US for post-war peace, security and prosperity we all enjoy and for every war and chaos averted so far. The glass is half full in this case.
Agreed partly because there are nations who backstab their allies by wiretapping their leaders.
> People think that because the US leadership and public is willing to criticize themselves and export that attitude along with every other stufd the US exports
?
> France and Russia alone have toppled more regimes in the last few years in africa than the US in the last few decades.
okay but France is another ally of the US? If we where to compare Russia vs US worldwide since the end of WWII who do you think would lead?
> Chinese spies in every country basicaly.
I thought that your point was that spies was something we should just learn to accept, and something that we could make us of? Maybe the rest of the world could make use of these spies to make sure that you don't get a president that's not good for you? How would you like that?
> While the US cleans up after colonial europe's mess in the past 70 years, europe developed a moral sense of arrogant superiority.
Right so all US wars are humanitarian efforts? Where did you learn about this, in a Hollywood movie?
> Name me one country the US fought with in its entire history that was not a european former colony?
Germany is one. Spain and Italy would be to others, do you need more examples? Not that I understand what point you are trying to make.
> I mean, let's be a bit candid here, the US CIA does not just work for the US but for NATO and EU's interests as well.
What you think is the EU's interest maybe isn't necessarily what people in the EU think is in their interest.
> If honesty and self awareness was common europe would celebrate and treasure the CIA and the US for post-war peace, security and prosperity we all enjoy and for every war and chaos averted so far. The glass is half full in this case.
Well it hasn't been peaceful at all?
Hah! If you are gonna pull back the date, let's pull them back all the way to when both nations existed in 1776. How many african and pacific nations did France topple? Add that to the count and the US is dramatically less.
> I thought that your point was that spies was something we should just learn to accept, and something that we could make us of? Maybe the rest of the world could make use of these spies to make sure that you don't get a president that's not good for you? How would you like that?
Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it. And in that context i was making the same point that spies are common and in peace times much more tolerated than in war. I don't know about the rest of the world but the brits did try and most of the US was greatful for their attmept (steele dossier). If their intent was malicious then I would blame FBI counterintel and it's failure more than bad spies being bad.
> Right so all US wars are humanitarian efforts? Where did you learn about this, in a Hollywood movie?
Hell no, but they wouldn't have happened without colonial europeans drawing random lines on a map. Even much of africa's economic woes and civil wars are a result of in-fighting due to these random lines. The US as a superpower also has like 800 foreign military bases and the largest navy in history which along with its vast intel community have kept enough peace both for the US and EU. It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from. It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything the CIA does but much of US interference has the backing of its allies, except in south america. Most of US's enemies consider Europe in the same boat and they will find it easier to attack europe due to geography.
> Germany is one. Spain and Italy would be to others, do you need more examples? Not that I understand what point you are trying to make.
True and korea too i suppose, i meant outside of coalition wars where the US fought on its own for obvious reasons. The point was that former colonies get left in shambles from the ottoman empire's middle east to SE asia and US spies and military intervene. Much of the toppling people think of happened in the cold war where anti-imperialist sentiment all over the world was being used to expand the russian and chinese communist empire and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then.
> What you think is the EU's interest maybe isn't necessarily what people in the EU think is in their interest.
Sure it is, so long as what I think is let EU people decide whatever they want instesd if putin and xi decide for them for example.
> Well it hasn't been peaceful at all?
Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history. And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war. Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts? Much of europe now fights wars like the US in remote countries, no hiding in bomb shelters and and sending your kids off to war with other europeans. Although putin might break that record soon.
My point was exactly that you'll get vastly different results depending on what range of time you choose. That being said I'm still not sure if the French would take the lead on that one, which obviously would be quite a project to investigate...
> Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it.
Na of course not, and a spade will be a spade, and backstabbing backstabbing, no matter how much you try to snake yourself out of it.
> It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from.
The US supported the Soviet union militarily enabling them to put half of Europe under communist dictatorship.
> It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places?
No because the CIA are torturing people and are paying people to rape, murder and torture for fun and profit, I don't think there really is anyone who can claim the moral highground.
That doesn't mean that I won't say that it's immoral and wrong for these countries to do this, and perhaps more importantly shortsighted and countraproductive...
> ... and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then.
People in Europe complained a lot!
> Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history. Again as with the example above that really really depends on how you measure it.
> And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war Yeah so you seem to have a bit of a tendency to say that there's peace everywhere and everywhere apart from places and times that you omit from the list more or less arbitrarily.
It's like saying that the period 1939-1949 was really peaceful in Sweden and Switzerland.
> Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts?
In that case overseas French territories would make it seem way way less peaceful.
Then you subsequently accuse him of ignoring your points, and also accuse him of insulting you. This is the type of content should be removed from HN.
It's not ok for people to touch your butt for example unless people are your chosen sexual partner. It's not ok to kill a person, unless your intent is to defend yourself from mortal peril. It's not ok to spy on your friend, unless you are concerned your friend might commit suicide. In some cases it makes the act excusable and in others it makes the anger less inflamed.
Doing research on the CIA has made me expect them to be up to absolutely no good, and frankly this is something that makes me sad and not happy.
> But if it so happens they did and you find out, you should feel angry but you should not pretend it is business unusual.
I'm glad that you understand that this makes me upset, but you are mistaken in believing that I do not think that this isn't "business as usual", in fact I've come to expect far far worse acts from the CIA.
> Of course espionage is not election interfernece neccesarily unless you consider things like leaking info to french or US media interference (legit info not disinformation).
No espionage isn't necessarily election interference, but if there is something that the CIA is known for then it's election interference.
Well it turns out that public opinion can be shaped not by telling lies, which is easily combated, but rather by not telling the whole truth.
> It's not ok for people to touch your butt for example unless people are your chosen sexual partner. Really?
> It's not ok to kill a person, unless your intent is to defend yourself from mortal peril. It's not ok to spy on your friend, unless you are concerned your friend might commit suicide.
Are you saying that the CIA was afraid that Angela Merkel was about to kill someone, commit suicide and or was being sexually aroused by having people watching her?
Would it be okay for someone to spy on their friends, to see if they are trying to make a deal with somebody they don't like, so that they can put a spanner in the wheels on that deal? I mean if you doesn't like somebody then it's probably for the best for your friend not to have anything to do with that person.
Is it okay for you to put spyware on your girlfriends phone to make sure that she doesn't cheat on you? You could always argue that cheating is immoral, and you are only trying to make sure that she doesn't become a bad person (according to you).
Would you agree with me installing cameras in your home, for your personal protection. I mean you can totally trust a random person on the internet with your personal life, especially since I might be in a different legal jurisdiction so that you can practice your faith in strangers without having to worry about getting protection from your local law enforcement.
> In some cases it makes the act excusable and in others it makes the anger less inflamed.
Yeah and in a lot of cases making excuses instead of apologies, after getting caught red handed makes the anger along with the contempt more inflamed.
Yeah so people in Europe are really upset of US wiretapping because they don't trust the US government with that information, is it really that difficult to wrap your head around that concept?
A lot of people in Europe believe that the US hardly ever have had a good candidate, and that Trump is just another addition of a long list of despicable presidents. So if you imagine how it would feel like if you tought every US government is as shocking as the Trump administration, you might start to understand how people outside of the US feels about this, if that is of any interest to you of course.
> But usually it just means paying an asset to leak info,
Which some people would consider manipulating someone to commit high treason.
No, that was never in dispute though, strawman argument?
> A lot of people in Europe believe that the US hardly ever have had a good candidate, and that Trump is just another addition of a long list of despicable presidents. So if you imagine how it would feel like if you tought every US government is as shocking as the Trump administration, you might start to understand how people outside of the US feels about this, if that is of any interest to you of course
Are you saying if the US president was nicer, US spying would be acceptable? Or are you making my argument for me that precisely for the reasons you mentioned, european intel agencies are spying in/against the US?
> Which some people would consider manipulating someone to commit high treason.
Treason is betrayal as it applies to aiding an enemy, not a trusted ally. And almost never in times of peace. The specific term is espionage not treason. But still a betrayal of trust. Usually assets are just waiting to be bought, it's better for an ally to buy them instead of a hostile country/agent. Lookup the CIA MICE acronym on how to develop assets.
Think about it this way, not much has changed between EU and US relations even after snowden reveals and trump. Ultimately the interests of both parties are largely aligned and intertwined and embarassments like the US spying solved diplomatically.
But what concerns me is much of both US and EU is too many generarions removed from the chaos of the old world. They are not aware of the treasure of peace and friendly relations we all enjoy. We are debating over a website instead of with bullets from foxholes and the current state of spying is largely a reaction to WW2 and the cold war. It can change both for better and worse, so vote for foreign ministers that will relfect your views and priorities so they can solve this stuff.
Well that was the point that I was trying to convey, I'm glad that we are in agreement.
> Treason is betrayal as it applies to aiding an enemy, not a trusted ally. And almost never in times of peace. The specific term is espionage not treason. But still a betrayal of trust. Usually assets are just waiting to be bought, it's better for an ally to buy them instead of a hostile country/agent. Lookup the CIA MICE acronym on how to develop assets.
The person who sells the classified information would obviously be the one that commits treason, not the spy agency.
> Are you saying if the US president was nicer, US spying would be acceptable? Or are you making my argument for me that precisely for the reasons you mentioned, european intel agencies are spying in/against the US?
What I am trying to say is that since there is no guarantee that the next president will be good it would be wise never to accept intrusive spying. No I don't think spy agencies should wiretap the phones of their allies leaders, if they are allies. That would be dishonorable and shameful.
Collecting intelligence can still be done through other means of course. The information in the link below, for instance is probably not collected trough wiretapping: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/angola/summ...
> Think about it this way, not much has changed between EU and US relations even after snowden reveals and trump.
Yeah which I think reflects really unfavorably on the politicians in both the EU and the US.
> Ultimately the interests of both parties are largely aligned and intertwined and embarassments like the US spying solved diplomatically.
Diplomacy can still be based on threats of violence, so that doesn't really impress me very much.
> But what concerns me is much of both US and EU is too many generarions removed from the chaos of the old world. They are not aware of the treasure of peace and friendly relations we all enjoy. We are debating over a website instead of with bullets from foxholes and the current state of spying is largely a reaction to WW2 and the cold war. It can change both for better and worse, so vote for foreign ministers that will relfect your views and priorities so they can solve this stuff.
People in Ukraine, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen and many more, might not agree with that. Furthermore Europe is being overrun by refuges created by the turmoil which also seem to point to the fact that things aren't that stable.
You could also argue that during the USSR all the countries in that sphere where living in peace, others would say that they where living in fear of the secret police.
Criminals are not usually ashamed, I think the part you don't get is that clandestine arms of spy agencies are essentially state sponsored criminal agencies. Like APT hackers for example, every country hacks other countries (major ones anyways), and of course that is criminal and dishonorable but it is the norm and you have consented to it by your votes.
> Yeah which I think reflects really unfavorably on the politicians in both the EU and the US.
In my experience it is also the people. Most regular people don't care or it is at least not a big deal so long as their economy and security is improving. Politicians are merely representing the people.
> Diplomacy can still be based on threats of violence, so that doesn't really impress me very much
Yes, but people don't bleed or die when threatened, so point still stands.
> People in Ukraine, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen and many more, might not agree with that. Furthermore Europe is being overrun by refuges created by the turmoil which also seem to point to the fact that things aren't that stable
Yes, but speaking of Ukraine, who is the main military support preventing a russian invasion? And do you recall trump being impeached over not helping Ukraine? Did the US owe them that? Who drew the maps in palestine? Brits! Who left sudan in shambles mixing christians and muslims in one country? That's right.. brits. The world is a complex place, my point is not to blame europe or morally justify the CIA. The point is history, context and intentions are plenty and the norm of spying and world relations now has resulted in peace, improvement of poverty by an insane margin and much less wars and death. Despite nukes being a thing, they so far have only been used once! That's not an accident. Wars were very common and frequent. Maybe things can improve but only if we don't forget history. Europe is being overrun because of immigration policy, similar to the US.
> You could also argue that during the USSR all the countries in that sphere where living in peace, others would say that they where living in fear of the secret police.
I would say in relative peace but with little liberty and quality of life. Stalin and Mak were arguably on the same murderous level as hitler and the japanese emperor.
I'd go beyond that and say that they are state sponsored terrorists, which is why I think it's obvious for the US to keep them away from their allies, unless their allies aren't really their allies.
> Yes, but people don't bleed or die when threatened, so point still stands.
I wouldn't be surprised if your state sponsored criminals have killed European citizens in order to bully people into submission, making them enact policies that then would lead to people dying...
> Yes, but speaking of Ukraine, who is the main military support preventing a russian invasion? Speaking of Ukraine how did a government that provoked the Russians into attacking them come into power?
> And do you recall trump being impeached over not helping Ukraine? Why would Trump be impeached over helping Ukraine? The US can't even protect it's own border.
> Did the US owe them that? Well I suppose the US wouldn't want to have military bases that close to Moscow.
> Who drew the maps in palestine? Brits! Who left sudan in shambles mixing christians and muslims in one country? That's right.. brits
So you are saying that two wrongs make a right, and it's okay for the CIA to wiretap German politicians because brits did something bad decades earlier?
> Stalin and Mak were arguably on the same murderous level as hitler and the japanese emperor.
Way worse which is why I don't really like your Pax Americana argument, since it means justifying terrorizing innocent people for economical benefit, and then saying it's a good thing since the subjugated population can't resist any more and there'll be "peace".
Either way you haven't managed to change my mind, and made me believe that its a good thing that the CIA wiretaps its allies and that it would make sense for European nations to start looking elsewhere for allies.
Sweet summer child...
https://cepa.org/article/europe-uses-spyware-on-its-own-citi...
https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...
Human beings operating outside the boundaries of nationalist mental illness, do not care for this sort of behaviour one bit.
It takes a special mentality to justify this violation of human rights at a fundamental scale.
"Everyone spies" == "Everyone murders innocent people they don't like".
This is a violation of human rights, period. No nation state which engages in this activity should be taken seriously when it comes to the human rights record of their government.
With this level of ignorance, you can even invade and devastate whole countries with the public completely ignoring it. How many here know of the thousands of dead civilians, many children, and millions displaced refugees as the result of the recent US Syria invasion? We're crossing some lines here I didn't think were crossable.
Even if you think they are so very different, I don't see the other half of Americans doing mass protests against this or that policy. You would think if HALF of all Americans oppose something, there would be mass protests. But there are not. Meaning they don't really oppose it. Which means, yes, they are the same and very much responsible.
That burst the "American Dream" bubble for me, cold and hard. I came to see the USA for what it really is - a military junta masquerading as a republic, engaged in wide scale repression of human rights, and indeed human beings as a whole, at immense scales.
Subsequent human rights violations, the existence of the utterly vile NSA, the treatment of Julian Assange - these events have merely added another layer to the shit-cake that is the USA's repressive regime, today.
>thousands
Millions.