> Fortunately even timeshare owners get to die, but the company isn’t done with you yet. The perpetuity clause in most of these contracts means that the timeshare will become part of your estate—one of your beneficiaries is going to get stuck with those fees for the rest of her life, if she doesn’t file a so-called disclaimer of interest by her state’s deadline.
Wow! I had no idea you could sign a contract that obligates your benificiaries after your death.
Only if you wanna keep the house it’s attached to. If it’s underwater and there’s not much else to the estate, you can reject the house and it’s debt. They can only collect the difference from the estate’s assets.
Anyone can make a claim against an estate. But there is a deadline usually 6 months to a year after the death where the estate can be closed. Even when someone makes a claim the executor of the will can tell a judge that they don't think the claim is valid. So it comes down to the timeshare company needing to know about the death and filing a claim quickly enough and a judge accepting the claim as valid.
Its not an existing debt. its a periodic obligation which creates a new debt on a reoccurring schedule tied to heritable real property, similar to (and often literally) an HOA fee, so to avoid it you have to actively stop the property from being inherited the way it usually would be, the timeshare conpany doesn't need to make a claim against the estate.
If the property gets inherited, then wouldn't any obligation for maintenance payments exist purely as an encumbrance on the property? Like if the claim to the property is transferred via operation of law or even deed of executor, the recipient hasn't entered into any contract to make ongoing payments. Meaning if they don't pay, the worst that can happen is the property gets foreclosed upon? Or is there some other legal aspect I'm missing?
Depends on state law, they may be able to get a judgement against you for costs incurred above the foreclosure value, and it may depend on the type of foreclosure procedure if judicial and non-judicial are available; similar to how in some states a mortgage lender can get a judgement for the load balance and costs above the foreclosure auction value.
I'm guessing a timeshare foreclosure shows up on credit reports, and in the period between when they figure out you're not likely to pay and when they file for foreclosure, that you're past due on those payments will likely also show up, and I'm sure they'll try to convince you to pay.
I know it's going to be highly dependent on state law, and I'm sure at least one state in the union has some kind of backwards law facilitating the inheritance of debts. I'm asking about general concepts, because it feels like a lot of the lay advice plays loose with the actual semantics. For example, there is a Nerdwallet article linked above that says you might want to file a disclaimer of interest. But the disclaimer of interests I'm familiar with mean estate law continues to operate as if you have already passed away - meaning the same dynamic would just land in the laps of your greater family.
The mortgage framing is really the same question - can a mortgage lender get a judgement for loan balance and costs above auction value from someone who didn't sign the mortgage note? Let's say you're transferred a claim to a mortgaged piece of real property through operation of estate law, deed of executor, or even deed from the living owner. Are you somehow obligated for the entire amount of the loan, beyond your desire to not have your interest foreclosed upon?
Talking about social credit reports is a bit of a red herring. If it isn't a valid debt, then it wouldn't be legitimate for someone to add it to the financial surveillance records about you. And yes I know these timeshare operations are quite adept at using extralegal pressure to goad people into doing foolish legally-binding things, but I'm talking about what's strictly legal.
It's a bit different for a mortgage. You can't transfer a property with a properly recorded mortgage without approval of the lender. So in an inheritence situation, the person who inherits the house should contact the mortgage and get the terms.
My understanding is that timeshare expenses are like HOA expenses, it's not exactly a contract, it's an encumberence on the property. The owner of the property has duties, whether they want them or not, by virtue of being the owner, not because they agreed to the situation. (Of course, it would hopefully be made clear to you that it's a non-negotiable encumberence before you accept ownership)
> But the disclaimer of interests I'm familiar with mean estate law continues to operate as if you have already passed away - meaning the same dynamic would just land in the laps of your greater family.
There's kind of two options here; maybe someone in the greater family wants it, in which case, their pain. If nobody wants it, I think there's some default end for property with no known heirs, and if everyone disclaims it, that's where it goes.
Great episode, but no, not completely accurate, unless a) every exit you take leads to another sales pitch, b) they illegally detain you, and c) local police refuse to do anything about that because they work for the timeshare people.
Btw for those who are interested, the episode is Asspen (s6e2):
I mean, don’t go to one if you’re susceptible to this sort of sales presentation. If you can withstand two hours of a pressure cooker, you can get an excellent deal on a multi-night resort vacation.
If someone is known to be a high pressure sales person that takes advantage of people I wouldn't expect them to actually follow through on the gift that was offered for staying
It's really not that bad, I just tell them there is no way they are making a sale, that they made a mistake to ever let me come, and they let me go early.
When I was much younger, my ex and I used to do this somewhat frequently. It always worked.
Timeshare salespeople don’t want to waste their time trying to sell to someone who knows what’s up, came solely for the promotional gift, and is categorically not going to buy. Sometimes we had to refuse to play their numbers games, when they asked for our income so they could “show” us just how good a deal their crap was, but we never had to sit through a full presentation.
We went on a fun, totally free cruise courtesy of one of those companies. Good times.
The contract that gets you the gift will absolutely specify a minimum time you must spend there to earn it. Visibly set a timer, and when it goes off, get up and leave.
Ah fair. I've not gone to the timeshare pitches, but much smaller ones ("free dinner if you listen to our presentation on house heating"). Those tend to be informal - no contracts, etc.
I did once pay to go to a 3-day RE workshop which turned out to be a sales pitch. And oh boy, when it comes to fantastic presentations, this was the best. They're basically trying to sign you up for mentorship at a cost of $35-50K, so I can see they've got money to make it fancy and hire top salesmen as well as entertainment equipment. It was basically a 3 day long show. If they'd made it a lot cheaper (e.g. $15K), I could see myself falling for it. Who doesn't want to get rich, and what they were offering was sound (except for the fact that most people who pay don't have the discipline to follow through on RE work).
It wasn't very pushy, though. I had a brief 5-10 minute 1:1 with a rep. Perhaps he sensed dirty tactics wouldn't work for me? I did hear from another attendee that their meeting with (another) rep was worse - along the lines of "You're saying No. Do you want to be the type of person who always lets opportunities go by? When are you going to change to better yourself?" Had they said that to me I would have gotten up immediately.
Although I was annoyed at being duped, I actually did learn quite a bit about RE in those 3 days. It was something like 35% real education and 65% sales pitch, with the education scattered in between throughout the 3 days.
Of course, one could learn it all themselves. Plenty of cheap/free resources. However, there was value in having it all presented in one place.
Ah, Caitlin Flanagan, chronicler of the many modest tribulations of the upper middle class, back again to tell us about the immense anxiety she experienced when, um, she sat through the sales pitch she signed up for.
Timeshares are obviously a scam, but why did I just read 5000 words about how she agreed to go on a discounted vacation in exchange for a timeshare pitch, and that's exactly what happened. The hotel was fine. The sales pitch was a sales pitch. She wasn't detained or assaulted or forced into anything. Her husband seems like an absolute saint and I can't imagine why he puts up with her.
True, it's exactly what happened. But the point is, there are people who are a lot better at making you want to buy something than you are at resisting their tactics. Think twice before you voluntarily put yourself in their hands, even for a discounted vacation.
It's so kind of the elites to go out of their way to protect us from ourselves. If the elties were truly benevolent and generous, they would instruct us on how we protect us from them. Funny how they're never *that* insightful.
One reason is that you pay up front for access to annual slot. You really have to want to go every year at the same time to the same place.
Second is that they charge maintenance fees. You have to pay ever increasing amount.
Third is that you can’t cancel the contract. And they are impossible to sell. There is huge depreciation and buyers want desirable areas. The only good way to get one is buy used at big discount.
I wonder if they'll still be happy when the kids have grown up and they're still on the hook for those maintenance fees and can't sell the timeshare to someone else.
I suspect the inability to sell is in the minority.
I know people who buy "used" timeshares happily. The owners really want to get rid of them so they sell at a low price. As long as the rules allow it, they use them as AirBnBs for those two weeks and make a killing. Those locations are premium, so they can charge a lot per night. And they don't have to do any work as the resort staff handle most of the cleaning, etc.
Compared to buying a house/condo and putting it on AirBnB, the per dollar invested gain is much higher with timeshares.
> One reason is that you pay up front for access to annual slot. You really have to want to go every year at the same time to the same place.
Our neighbor's timeshare works by paying for X weeks/year, but then they reserve the weeks they want, reservations open a year ahead of time. The weeks are not fixed.
(Absolutely not defending the world of products sold with high-pressure sales tactics.)
What exactly makes it so bad? I’m assuming you went into it thinking it was worth the trade for whatever you received, but changed your mind after - what can you tell us to keep us from making the same decision?
It's really not what I want to be doing on a vacation. The bargain is a hotel discount in exchange for a sales pitch. Sounded ok when I booked the vacation. Really annoying when it was preventing me from getting to the next fun thing.
Would you want to spend 2-3 hours of a 3-day vacation negotiating a new car price? If no, then maybe you also don't want to spend 3 hours saying, "No, thank you" to a very nice timeshare salesperson and you should spend it at the beach, in front of slot machines, or getting drunk instead.
I was on vacation with a (now-ex) girlfriend. She wanted to go to a timeshare tour and presentation so we could get free theme park tickets. We went. Big mistake. We were there for several hours, then they had us meet with some sales rep which droned on for another hour. After claiming poverty and refusing to sign any contracts, we were given our free tickets... I would've rather paid for them.
We did that as well, to get three free nights in a resort. We signed up for the last possible slot in the day for the day we were set to check in to the hotel. We also borrowed a friend's baby (friend was traveling with us).
The salesman was tired and ready to go home. Instead of the regular 2-3 hours, we spent 15 minutes with him while the baby fussed a bit. Then he handed us our hotel voucher.
You did pay for them. “Several hours of time” easily adds up to hundreds of dollars.
Think about it this way: How much would you pay to get 1 hour of your time back? Like paying for takeout instead of going to get it yourself. Or paying to get your lawn mowed. Or your house cleaned. That’s how much your time is worth to you.
The problem is that, for most people, the answer to how much their time is worth is nothing quantitative. I pay to get my lawn cut and for a once a month housekeeper, but those are basically luxuries to do tasks that I could do myself in 2 or 3 hours that I would rather not do. But I, like most people, am not actually forgoing paid work if I were to do them myself. So it's a luxury. My time is not actually worth hundreds of dollars an hour.
You should absolutely know the value of your time. Leisure time has a value to you.
I pay someone to maintain my yard because I don't want to do it. I don't want to own the equipment either. It makes financial sense. So, even if I'm inside watching TV and hanging with my family, it's money well spent for me.
It certainly has value. It just does not generally have literal monetary value that relates to, for example, what your company pays you.
Some tasks may mean you can forego equipment purchases/maintenance but you're probably not literally saving money by having someone do something for you. Which is fine! It's perfectly OK to say I don't like doing yard work and can afford to pay someone to do it for me. You're probably both happier as a result.
If we start to believe in the difference between use value and exchange value then we'll somersault our way into difficult economic theories rather quickly. It's best to, instead, say that nothing has value unless it can be purchased, a process by which value is instantaneous reified.
My kid usually mows the lawn and I do the edges. It's actually pretty good outdoor time with family, and usually I find more to do out there if I'm just out there.
Let's suppose you have a 20-hour a week job that pays you $200/hour.
What are the odds that job allows you to work an extra hour any time you feel like it? In the other direction, if you drop a few hours a week when you feel like it -- how long do you remain employed? Not too long, unless you're actually being underpaid for a specialist position.
Let's suppose that you have a salary of $200K/year, and the boss generally expects you to be working on the company's problems 40 hours a week, with the occasional flex time when you or they need it. Do they pay you more on weeks when you work 42 hours? Less on weeks of 38 hours? No.
(At lower salaries, overtime is real -- but a corporation is quite likely to fire you if you make a habit of taking or dropping hours without advance permission.)
Almost nobody is in a position where they can directly and accurately value an arbitrary hour as income or loss of income.
> But I, like most people, am not actually forgoing paid work if I were to do them myself
There’s more to opportunity cost than money. That’s time with family, time to just chill, time for hobbies, all sorts of stuff.
Every time you pay to outsource a task you could do yourself by just putting in the time, you are explicitly saying “Having this time back is worth $X to me”. That is a direct measure of how much your time is worth to you.
Of course. The only reason I went was to placate my partner. She wanted to split the cost of the vacation and this was one of her ways of doing it. I said I would've paid for the whole thing but she didn't want me to.
There were a lot of problems in the relationship. I try not to think about those days.
Free airline tickets were what we got offered in the mail. Went and sat through the presentation and got pounced on by the sales reps to sign for a timeshare after the presentation. When we refused they sent us to the "boss" and he tried to further convince us to sign up for a timeshare in his office. Still kept refusing and at the end, he slammed the vouchers for free airline tickets on his desk and said, "Here you go, have a nice night" with a pissy attitude.
I once talked to someone who used to work in the timeshare business, at a European tourist city. Their job was to get tourists to come to the pitch. They would get paid different amounts depending on the tourist's nationality, with Northern Europeans being worth the most, except for Finns, who were "worth" nothing (his boss said that all they wanted to do was drink, and would never sign up). So his trick was to find Finns, get them to come to the pitch with the lure of free drink, but just say that they were Swedish, so he would get paid at that high rate.
Nah, I can't get worked up about nudging harmful business practices towards unprofitability. I do the same thing every time I try to waste a phone spammer's time.
We went to one for the free resort tickets while on vacation. Like other commenters here, it went on a lot longer than I wanted.
But the icing on the cake was after we said "pass", the salesperson was angry and berated us for being "irresponsible" for not "having something to leave for our children". Bro, the money.
That's exactly the SOP. They are the nicest when they are selling the POS timeshare but the moment they know you aren't going to budge, their true colors show and they can be utter jerks. It makes sense - the commission is their livelihood but it's cathartic to see their day ruined.
? Sometimes people enjoy reading a story (especially in a magazine like the Atlantic). Everything written isn’t done solely to convey one sentence worth of facts, and that doesn’t make it about anyone’s ego.
A former colleague of mine loved going to these type of events.
He enjoyed toying with the reps, almost agreeing to sign, then in the last moment suddenly asking a hard question. Watching them apply all their dirty tricks.
He and his wife would go out to such event once in a while and come back with stories to tell.
I wonder if there’s space for a second level financial setup where you buy a piece of an organization that arranges for your attendance at the best timeshare pitch deals.
My ex-wife was gullible when it came to "too good to be true" money-making schemes.
In one such occasion, she took me to an "auction" where we were "guaranteed" to win appliances or thousands of dollars. It of course turned out to be a timeshare sales pitch. She was so angry at me for walking out when the "sales manager"[1] began to insinuate that we've been wasting their time and that "authorities could get involved".
My ex-wife hissed at me that I was embarrassing her and why don't I understand what these awesome people were trying to do for us. In her eyes, the sales folks really found her funny, pretty, well dressed, and so so smart, and they're "so sad that she'll miss out on earning 1000s of dollars a month with zero effort!" (I think there may have been an element of multi-level-marketing involved).
One tactic was to state that we could "just take the paperwork home to look it over!" Except of course, we just had to put down a deposit and sign these docs. I'm 100% sure that anything signed would have led to years of financial hassle.
Several days of stony silence later she admitted she had been completely tricked and was ready to sign something stating we'd be paying something like 2k a month (in 2005) forever.
[1] The sales manager was huge and intimidating. He was brought out after I refused to sign any kind of contract and tried to bully me into signing.
I sort of enjoy things like this a a way to observe sales/manipulation tactics. Usually as long as you're committed to no-buy, you can give them a fun and totally fictional story about why, have fun, and get free stuff out of it.
Last one I went to (in Las Vegas) the guy was actually very chill and we spent the whole time talking about the sales tech/presentation tech he was using, about the LV market generally, etc.
I tend to react poorly to sales pitches.
The longer and dumber they are the more pissed off I get.
Something many a tech sales rep has discovered.
I think finally reps started to make notes in their CRM systems about me.
I am not opposed to buying in principle if something seems useful,
but I need the facts and the prices up front, then for some
questions to be answered in a logical and accurate way.
Asking a rep to write down what he just said and sign it is a good
way to ensure accurate information.
Some have adapted and some of them made sales.
A lot of them will never come back again.
The longest day of my life was when I was maybe 5 years old: the day my parents bought their timeshare.
A few months ago I went with my father to a presentation by a company that helps people get rid of their timeshares. The presenter said buying a timeshare is like pre-paying for your next 30+ years of vacations. The annual maintenance fees pay the property taxes for the resorts, state governments like their property tax revenues, so they allow the racket to continue.
The 'time share relief' presenter asked everyone how much their annual fees were, and pegged their company's fee to the annual fee charged by the timeshare company.
Dad was all ready to sign up to pay $X,XXX to get rid of it. He's at the point where he doesn't have the energy to travel anymore, so he thinks the maintenance fees are just money wasted. I looked into the matter. Our state's law makes it relatively easy to get rid of timeshare fees, without having to pay for the services of a timeshare exit firm. Furthermore, many of the timeshares have programs for people like my father to get rid of their obligations: https://responsibleexit.com/who-we-are/diamond-resorts/
My brother ended up offering to split the fees with our father, as he likes to use it for his little trips. The properties do give preferential treatments to their 'owners', and the cost-per-night isn't so bad, as long as you use the nights you've paid for. My GF and I have used it twice this year, and have another trip coming up. I guesstimated the room's cost was about $50/night for a studio with refrigerator and cooktop. The same room was going for $150+/night on priceline & the other booking sites.
The Timeshare Users Group is probably one of the best internet forums about timeshares: https://tugbbs.com/forums/
tl/dr: if you're thinking about buying, DON'T. But in our case, what mom & dad paid out 30+ years ago would cost $80,000+ today, so we might as well just keep paying the maintenance fees and try to use it for all our little trips. <shrug>.
Owning a vacation property, much less a timeshare, just never really appealed to me. I barely keep up with my own house much less another property. And, if I went the condo route, I'm never going to drive up to the mountains every other weekend and if I'm not going to use a property on a regular basis, I'm fine with just getting a hotel. I can see there might be a difference with family and kids but I don't see the appeal personally.
It makes me sad that humanity is so entrenched in capitalism that we're subjecting our own class to high pressure (nearly) scams and it's perfectly legal. There's plenty of nice properties that could be filled normally and I'm sure the salespeople would rather not be having to play mind games and try to guilt people into things for their commission. But instead we have this toxic sales situation for something that I feel like should sell itself in other ways naturally.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 166 ms ] threadWow! I had no idea you could sign a contract that obligates your benificiaries after your death.
https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/can-you-inherit-...
(Never co-sign for someone!)
Unless you’re prepared to write off the entire amount as a gift.
(Though in that case, it’s probably better to just give them the money. After all, there’s a reason their signature is insufficient on its own.)
You do any time you buy property subject to an HOA with fees (which is, in fact, how lots of timeshares are structured.)
I'm guessing a timeshare foreclosure shows up on credit reports, and in the period between when they figure out you're not likely to pay and when they file for foreclosure, that you're past due on those payments will likely also show up, and I'm sure they'll try to convince you to pay.
The mortgage framing is really the same question - can a mortgage lender get a judgement for loan balance and costs above auction value from someone who didn't sign the mortgage note? Let's say you're transferred a claim to a mortgaged piece of real property through operation of estate law, deed of executor, or even deed from the living owner. Are you somehow obligated for the entire amount of the loan, beyond your desire to not have your interest foreclosed upon?
Talking about social credit reports is a bit of a red herring. If it isn't a valid debt, then it wouldn't be legitimate for someone to add it to the financial surveillance records about you. And yes I know these timeshare operations are quite adept at using extralegal pressure to goad people into doing foolish legally-binding things, but I'm talking about what's strictly legal.
My understanding is that timeshare expenses are like HOA expenses, it's not exactly a contract, it's an encumberence on the property. The owner of the property has duties, whether they want them or not, by virtue of being the owner, not because they agreed to the situation. (Of course, it would hopefully be made clear to you that it's a non-negotiable encumberence before you accept ownership)
> But the disclaimer of interests I'm familiar with mean estate law continues to operate as if you have already passed away - meaning the same dynamic would just land in the laps of your greater family.
There's kind of two options here; maybe someone in the greater family wants it, in which case, their pain. If nobody wants it, I think there's some default end for property with no known heirs, and if everyone disclaims it, that's where it goes.
The person who singed the agreement is dead and there is no estate to sue.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/inheriting-timesh...
Btw for those who are interested, the episode is Asspen (s6e2):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asspen?useskin=vector
Timeshare salespeople don’t want to waste their time trying to sell to someone who knows what’s up, came solely for the promotional gift, and is categorically not going to buy. Sometimes we had to refuse to play their numbers games, when they asked for our income so they could “show” us just how good a deal their crap was, but we never had to sit through a full presentation.
We went on a fun, totally free cruise courtesy of one of those companies. Good times.
Big mistake.
Don't assume it will be only two hours.
I did once pay to go to a 3-day RE workshop which turned out to be a sales pitch. And oh boy, when it comes to fantastic presentations, this was the best. They're basically trying to sign you up for mentorship at a cost of $35-50K, so I can see they've got money to make it fancy and hire top salesmen as well as entertainment equipment. It was basically a 3 day long show. If they'd made it a lot cheaper (e.g. $15K), I could see myself falling for it. Who doesn't want to get rich, and what they were offering was sound (except for the fact that most people who pay don't have the discipline to follow through on RE work).
It wasn't very pushy, though. I had a brief 5-10 minute 1:1 with a rep. Perhaps he sensed dirty tactics wouldn't work for me? I did hear from another attendee that their meeting with (another) rep was worse - along the lines of "You're saying No. Do you want to be the type of person who always lets opportunities go by? When are you going to change to better yourself?" Had they said that to me I would have gotten up immediately.
Although I was annoyed at being duped, I actually did learn quite a bit about RE in those 3 days. It was something like 35% real education and 65% sales pitch, with the education scattered in between throughout the 3 days.
Of course, one could learn it all themselves. Plenty of cheap/free resources. However, there was value in having it all presented in one place.
Timeshares are obviously a scam, but why did I just read 5000 words about how she agreed to go on a discounted vacation in exchange for a timeshare pitch, and that's exactly what happened. The hotel was fine. The sales pitch was a sales pitch. She wasn't detained or assaulted or forced into anything. Her husband seems like an absolute saint and I can't imagine why he puts up with her.
-George Bernard Shaw
Second is that they charge maintenance fees. You have to pay ever increasing amount.
Third is that you can’t cancel the contract. And they are impossible to sell. There is huge depreciation and buyers want desirable areas. The only good way to get one is buy used at big discount.
I don’t do the whole timeshare thing, but I have family who do and they seem happy.
I know people who buy "used" timeshares happily. The owners really want to get rid of them so they sell at a low price. As long as the rules allow it, they use them as AirBnBs for those two weeks and make a killing. Those locations are premium, so they can charge a lot per night. And they don't have to do any work as the resort staff handle most of the cleaning, etc.
Compared to buying a house/condo and putting it on AirBnB, the per dollar invested gain is much higher with timeshares.
Our neighbor's timeshare works by paying for X weeks/year, but then they reserve the weeks they want, reservations open a year ahead of time. The weeks are not fixed.
(Absolutely not defending the world of products sold with high-pressure sales tactics.)
I'd rather be dissuaded by 2 hours of reading an article at home than learning through the experience of a 2 hour sales pitch during my vacation time.
Would you want to spend 2-3 hours of a 3-day vacation negotiating a new car price? If no, then maybe you also don't want to spend 3 hours saying, "No, thank you" to a very nice timeshare salesperson and you should spend it at the beach, in front of slot machines, or getting drunk instead.
Not all of your time is the same.
The salesman was tired and ready to go home. Instead of the regular 2-3 hours, we spent 15 minutes with him while the baby fussed a bit. Then he handed us our hotel voucher.
Just be strategic. Like most things.
You did pay for them. “Several hours of time” easily adds up to hundreds of dollars.
Think about it this way: How much would you pay to get 1 hour of your time back? Like paying for takeout instead of going to get it yourself. Or paying to get your lawn mowed. Or your house cleaned. That’s how much your time is worth to you.
I pay someone to maintain my yard because I don't want to do it. I don't want to own the equipment either. It makes financial sense. So, even if I'm inside watching TV and hanging with my family, it's money well spent for me.
Some tasks may mean you can forego equipment purchases/maintenance but you're probably not literally saving money by having someone do something for you. Which is fine! It's perfectly OK to say I don't like doing yard work and can afford to pay someone to do it for me. You're probably both happier as a result.
We have to conclude that children, love, friendship, &c are all valueless because they do not have an exchange value ie: price.
What are the odds that job allows you to work an extra hour any time you feel like it? In the other direction, if you drop a few hours a week when you feel like it -- how long do you remain employed? Not too long, unless you're actually being underpaid for a specialist position.
Let's suppose that you have a salary of $200K/year, and the boss generally expects you to be working on the company's problems 40 hours a week, with the occasional flex time when you or they need it. Do they pay you more on weeks when you work 42 hours? Less on weeks of 38 hours? No.
(At lower salaries, overtime is real -- but a corporation is quite likely to fire you if you make a habit of taking or dropping hours without advance permission.)
Almost nobody is in a position where they can directly and accurately value an arbitrary hour as income or loss of income.
There’s more to opportunity cost than money. That’s time with family, time to just chill, time for hobbies, all sorts of stuff.
Every time you pay to outsource a task you could do yourself by just putting in the time, you are explicitly saying “Having this time back is worth $X to me”. That is a direct measure of how much your time is worth to you.
There were a lot of problems in the relationship. I try not to think about those days.
But the icing on the cake was after we said "pass", the salesperson was angry and berated us for being "irresponsible" for not "having something to leave for our children". Bro, the money.
I’ll save you some time: “Timeshare sales pitches are high pressure and hard to say no to. Avoid them.”
He enjoyed toying with the reps, almost agreeing to sign, then in the last moment suddenly asking a hard question. Watching them apply all their dirty tricks.
He and his wife would go out to such event once in a while and come back with stories to tell.
In one such occasion, she took me to an "auction" where we were "guaranteed" to win appliances or thousands of dollars. It of course turned out to be a timeshare sales pitch. She was so angry at me for walking out when the "sales manager"[1] began to insinuate that we've been wasting their time and that "authorities could get involved".
My ex-wife hissed at me that I was embarrassing her and why don't I understand what these awesome people were trying to do for us. In her eyes, the sales folks really found her funny, pretty, well dressed, and so so smart, and they're "so sad that she'll miss out on earning 1000s of dollars a month with zero effort!" (I think there may have been an element of multi-level-marketing involved).
One tactic was to state that we could "just take the paperwork home to look it over!" Except of course, we just had to put down a deposit and sign these docs. I'm 100% sure that anything signed would have led to years of financial hassle.
Several days of stony silence later she admitted she had been completely tricked and was ready to sign something stating we'd be paying something like 2k a month (in 2005) forever.
[1] The sales manager was huge and intimidating. He was brought out after I refused to sign any kind of contract and tried to bully me into signing.
Last one I went to (in Las Vegas) the guy was actually very chill and we spent the whole time talking about the sales tech/presentation tech he was using, about the LV market generally, etc.
I think finally reps started to make notes in their CRM systems about me.
I am not opposed to buying in principle if something seems useful, but I need the facts and the prices up front, then for some questions to be answered in a logical and accurate way.
Asking a rep to write down what he just said and sign it is a good way to ensure accurate information.
Some have adapted and some of them made sales. A lot of them will never come back again.
Win - Win.
A few months ago I went with my father to a presentation by a company that helps people get rid of their timeshares. The presenter said buying a timeshare is like pre-paying for your next 30+ years of vacations. The annual maintenance fees pay the property taxes for the resorts, state governments like their property tax revenues, so they allow the racket to continue.
The 'time share relief' presenter asked everyone how much their annual fees were, and pegged their company's fee to the annual fee charged by the timeshare company.
Dad was all ready to sign up to pay $X,XXX to get rid of it. He's at the point where he doesn't have the energy to travel anymore, so he thinks the maintenance fees are just money wasted. I looked into the matter. Our state's law makes it relatively easy to get rid of timeshare fees, without having to pay for the services of a timeshare exit firm. Furthermore, many of the timeshares have programs for people like my father to get rid of their obligations: https://responsibleexit.com/who-we-are/diamond-resorts/
My brother ended up offering to split the fees with our father, as he likes to use it for his little trips. The properties do give preferential treatments to their 'owners', and the cost-per-night isn't so bad, as long as you use the nights you've paid for. My GF and I have used it twice this year, and have another trip coming up. I guesstimated the room's cost was about $50/night for a studio with refrigerator and cooktop. The same room was going for $150+/night on priceline & the other booking sites.
The Timeshare Users Group is probably one of the best internet forums about timeshares: https://tugbbs.com/forums/
tl/dr: if you're thinking about buying, DON'T. But in our case, what mom & dad paid out 30+ years ago would cost $80,000+ today, so we might as well just keep paying the maintenance fees and try to use it for all our little trips. <shrug>.
There is a 72hr "cooling off" law in my state that I leveraged to cut my losses at a couple hundred $.