Interesting observations. Like drugs, different technologies may trigger different excessive neurological reactions. It would be interesting to map that space.
Will the Vision Pro trigger derealisation in schizoid/borderline people?
I think it's a pretty polarizing experience. Either you fall in love with it and go all in, or you don't and it's just not worth the squeeze. 14 days seems plenty of time.
that's the real problem with these devices ... it has to actually get boring before you can tell if it's got real value or not. And that takes a long time precisely because the novelty is so high and so interesting. But it will happen and if you don't have a use for the device after that you have blown a lot of money.
If you need more than 14 days, it seems a purchase upfront isn't the best idea to begin with. What would be better is to either borrow or rent it from someone/some place that already has one.
Making a purchase is very different from getting one to try. Beyond a 14 days return policy, you start getting abuse from people trying to exploit the exchange policy.
As many people say, 14 days is kind of a standard. Many companies have even fewer days so read the fine print before you buy. If you don't like the return policy, don't buy it.
If you absolutely have to have one on Day 1 but don't feel 14 days is sufficient, maybe evaluate why you need it on Day 1? Wait for some other people to have it in their hands, and the rentals/loans usually start a few weeks after launch.
I still find it quite odd that the west (or at least the US) has decided that we're entitled to a trial period with things we purchase. It's an incredibly wasteful practice and one that isn't at all common in a lot of other places on the planet. I know people who've moved to Europe who were in for a rude awakening when they tried returning things to the local shop just 'cause.
A lot of lower end items are sent to the trash when returned. (Not items like an iPhone, which would be sold as referb models).
The wastefulness comes from the fact that the barrier to purchase is pretty low, given the ease of return, so one is more likely to buy an item which may end up in the trash in 14 days (30 for Amazon).
If I absolutely couldn’t return a product (aside from defects), I’d not buy a lot of items in the first place.
(I say this as someone who is guilty of plenty of “trials”).
I’m actually travelling through Japan right now, where one can visit a Yobadashi or Bic Camera, these stores are great, because all their tech is out and able to be played with, without explicitly getting assistance from a staff member. It’s obviously not the same as bringing a camera etc into the field to test, but it goes a long way in deciding if something works from an ergonomic perspective, before purchasing it.
This is something I am very curious about too. I’m kind of hopeful the fatigue and limitations imposed by Vision Pro will make my overall computer usage more intentional, similar to how wearing an Apple Watch and tossing my phone in my backpack made my overall phone usage when I’m outside more intentional. The Apple Watch is a pain to use for anything productive, and I appreciate that.
The biggest question will be if it’s too much of a pain that I don’t want to use it at all.
Do you think the "benefits" (strange to say, but I totally get it) of fatigue and limitations will diminish over time as you get used to the new hardware? Or if the hardware/software itself gets better?
I just wonder if the friction imposed by a new tool—which, in this case, is a net positive—will become less noticeable and therefore less of a benefit. Compared to something like a smartwatch, which has impassable constraints no matter how much you get used to it, or even an e-ink screen.
Won't it rather have the same effect a slow phone or laptop has, like driving you really mad at times? I think I might have that issue if everything is laggy, unless I'd like to sugarcoat a very expensive purchase of an otherwise "cool" device.
It doesn't come across as laggy, but... smeary? if I move my head to the side, everything smears for a little bit before it snaps back into focus. It's a bit rough for me to move around in, but I'm pretty sensitive to motion.
That sounds like the phenomenon known as display persistence: https://developers.google.com/vr/discover/fundamentals#displ...
It's typically avoided by displaying images for a very short period, blanking them between frames and letting the eye and brain fill in the intervening time.
Things aren’t “slow” in the sense that they’re unresponsive. The UI actually feels great to use—it’s a lot of fun, it’s fluid, and it responds very well to my actions. It’s just that I’m not as fast navigating apps on the Apple Vision Pro compared to using a mouse or a touchscreen. Frustration only occurs when trying to perform a certain action and getting a different result, which doesn’t happen much for me (except in iPad apps with poor compatibility).
I completely agree on the extra overhead for opening new windows, and this authors thoughts on the pass-through quality. For myself I don’t think I realized how much I just look around while I’m thinking or working on some thing else but the Apple Vision Pro makes that very obvious as things light up, expand, etc.
I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device and as things stand right now I’m not sure if the apple Vision Pro is going to be more than that for me either. I wrote about this in my first impressions blog post [0], but what I really wanted was to use the Apple Vision Pro as a replacement for my computer monitors, it’s just not there yet. I look forward to future revisions and I’m also on a 13 day countdown to decide if I want to keep this or not.
> I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device
Same until I got the keyboard. Most of my iPads collected dust in a corner because I don’t really do that much consumption.
Then I got the Magic Keyboard and my iPad basically replaced my laptop. I use it for almost all my non-coding work. Even to give talks and workshops at conferences. The battery life is amazing, the form factor super convenient, and it fits on airplanes or in your lap perfectly.
Nowadays my laptop mostly works as a desktop computer sitting in its dock hooked into a keyboard, monitor, and mouse. Useful only for very serious work.
That’s something I still need to test in the Apple Vision Pro, connecting a keyboard to it. I used it with my laptop, which lets you use your keyboard with other Apple Vision Pro apps while it’s connected, which was very nice, and I also broke out the magic trackpad to use with the Apple Vision Pro because scrolling got annoying after a while. The problem is what I want to do is write code and I want to do it using my IDE so doing that inside of the Apple Vision Pro isn’t really possible unless I’m connected to my MacBook Pro
Same here, the keyboard plus iPad Pro has been an incredible combo for me. I’ve written here on HN before about how I use it to write code from the couch, bed, and even hotel rooms by SSHing into the Mac in my office and using Vim. I’ve got an Apple Vision Pro and am planning to test exactly that setup tonight.
Honestly it wasn’t bad at all! I’m sort of surprised how nice it was to work with using that setup. I had a little bit of trouble because the terminal/ssh app I like on my iPad (Blink) doesn’t work well at all on AVP, so I had to find another one. I ended up with La Termina which has a UX built for AVP.
I think my only other complaints would be these:
1. Scrolling in Safari can be annoying depending on the website. Last night I was trying to refactor some GitHub Actions, and scrolling through the Action run page, it really wanted to get stuck selecting random parts of the GitHub UI that were close to what I was looking at but definitely not what I was looking at. I want some kind of cursor I can pick up and move in those scenarios I guess.
2. I don’t know why but I kinda expected my iPad keyboard to just work with the AVP, but it obviously did not. I wanted it to work like it does with the Mac, where I can just connect to the iPad as another screen and also use its peripherals, but that was not the case, so I had to run up to my office and grab a Bluetooth keyboard.
All in all it’s not a bad experience so far. I’m not sold on it being better than the iPad just because the AVP is so heavy. But it’s definitely cool having a gigantic 4k terminal floating in the air above my bed while my wife reads her book and calls me a turbonerd. :P
I also pulled the trigger here hoping to be able to replace my desktop setup. What were the key issues you were having that made you feel like it's just not there yet for that use case?
I cover some of this in my blog post, but mostly it came down to the text I was looking at would be sharp and easy to read, but anything in my peripheral vision would look a little bit blurry. I only gave it a quick test and today I’m planning on trying to write a new feature all in the Vision Pro to see how that goes.
After writing this I went to write a tiny new feature for my side project on the AVP. At first I couldn't get my AVP to connect to my MBP and I thought it might be because it was in clamshell mode. I opened up setting and clicked around a bit then it showed up on my AVP to connect to (I went to Control Center and clicked the button to connect to a MBP, it didn't prompt me. It did prompt me the other day when I had the laptop open).
I started to write the feature but could feel the added friction and slowness. There was a little bit of input lag (moving mouse and feel like it wasn't moving as quick on the AVP), then I started getting an error from my backend in a place I hadn't touched anything. I very quickly took off the AVP to investigate with the "full power" of my MBP and external monitors.
The text in the AVP is clear when you are looking at your code but moving your head "smears" the picture a bit and anything you aren't focusing on isn't clear. It would be workable and maybe I'd use it on a plane but never if I have my monitors available to me. I want to try again in the next few days but it's a decent way off from replacing my monitors.
Really useful to hear about your experiences actually coding. None of the video reviews have touched on this, so thanks for that.
With regards the ‘smearing’, not sure how familiar you are with VR tech but, could you characterise it further?
Some things it may be off the top of my head:
Is it the display not switching pixel state fast enough? This was a problem with early Oculus headsets until we figured out how to strobe displays for ‘low persistence’.
Or, is it eye tracking lag, resulting in the foveated rendering not keeping up with where you are looking quickly enough? Human eyes can move extremely quickly from point-to-point (called saccades).
Be great to get your thoughts on the possible cause / tech limitations.
I don't really get the computer monitor replacement argument - if you are creating as opposed to consuming content (i.e. coding/designing/authoring), then you are going to need a rather better input medium than what a virtual keyboard/mouse will provide. And this better medium, whether keyboard, trackpad, mouse or something else, will be sitting on a desk - with your monitors! If you want more/bigger monitors, then go buy some with the $3499.
I can see how 'authoring from your lap' with a laptop actually on your lap (while on the sofa - like I am doing right now) might benefit from bigger/multi screens instead of the tiny portal the laptop gives you, but as soon as you want to do something more complex probably you'll reach for your mouse, and perhaps a paper and pen/pencil (if you think with your hands). Thus to the desk you go, where all your monitors are anyway.
You can use whatever peripherals are connected to your Mac with Vision Pro if you’re using the AVP as the display for your Mac. The Mac’s cursor can leave the Mac window to interact with floating Vision Pro windows and such. I used my Logitech Bluetooth mouse just fine for that.
Yeah I assume this is going to require continuity/handoff, and those use iCloud for syncing state/keys, and iCloud is a privacy nightmare, so unfortunately that feature is probably off the table for me as all iCloud hostnames are blackholed on my macs. I’ll know more on Monday.
My statement was of course about the AVP; everyone knows you can use bluetooth mice on a mac.
It’s so strange that I can use a mouse via Continuity and the UI seems to respond thoughtfully to the pointing device, but I just tried pairing that same Logitech mouse and got an error saying “Mouse input is currently not supported on visionOS”. Getting a lot of iPhone/iOS 1.0 vibes.
I can’t speak for anybody else, but for me, I am happy to use a mouse, keyboard, and even my MacBook Pro. I just want the Apple Vision Pro to replace my monitors.
I saw you post only occasionally and was intrigued by your first post, [1] about unsubscribing from college. Obviously you're doing just fine if a decade after pulling out of college you can afford an AVP! I'd be interested to read a retrospective on how the last decade has gone.
Seeing how my normal blogging cadence is once every couple years, I can’t promise anything but if I do post some thing, I’ll reply to this. Overall, it’s gone very well and dropping out of college was the right choice for me.
I routinely use Quest 3 with Immersed to do "focused" work by switching to specific environments that I associate with that. I can also co-work in a room of 5 - 10 other people who are also doing that which generates a little bit of impetus to focus as well.
I think if this becomes the only reason to keep the device, for sure explore some other options like Quest 3 and see if it's sufficient. It does a lot more things than a Vision Pro and costs so much less. It's pretty personal whether the resolution cuts it or you really need the quality of the Vision Pro or not, but it works for me.
I got a Quest 2 mostly for entertainment, but using it for productivity reasons is basically a no go for me, due to the lenses (blurry near the edges and some light streaks for any off-center text, not sure what the correct name for that is) and overall resolution (can't even have my actual 4 monitors present without having to make them so big that each takes up like 90 degrees of my field of vision).
I feel like I really should have waited for Quest 3, not have gotten a Quest 2 because it was cheaper. Then again, I quite like the concept of VR and if some of the software wasn't so buggy (currently I need to run GPU drivers from 2020 for my RX 580, since the newer ones cause driver crashes), I can definitely imagine myself spending more time in VR! Except for eye strain and basically staring into super bright screens close to my face.
Once I eventually get there, just chilling in space, with a few floating windows and getting some work done will be a pretty zen experience. Just have to wait a while until the hardware becomes more affordable.
Yes Quest 3 is a completely different ball game to Quest 2 as far as this goes. Quest 2 resolution and lenses were completely unusable for me and Quest 3 is usable. But there are people that will say Quest 3 is unusable so you have to really try it.
One thing it convinces me is that the resolution in Vision Pro is completely unnecessary for me. I need about 20% more resolution and I am done, after that other things are more important.
There are some privacy issues with meta that make me shy about trying their vr ecosystem again.
I met a Facebook recruiter once, maybe 3-4 years ago, who was bragging about how his team was collecting data about the interiors and uses of private indoor spaces.
If I'm in a charitable mood, I’ll take that to mean “contents of stores and restaurants,” but I’m not always so optimistic
it's a future risk I think but not a current one in any way shape or form in the Quest platform. They meticulously ask permission for every app that uses eye / camera / spatial data, even their own. I would say in some sense you are safer on Meta's platforms for the time being because Zuckerberg is going to be so shy of igniting that perception whereas Apple as more room to take those liberties. But I agree, in the longer term it's something to think about.
Fair, I’d say it’s fast as well and yes I definitely like it. I hope Meta takes note at how a good software experience can be, because while their hardware is good, they’ve been asleep at the wheel with software and Apple showed that in spades in so many areas of the Vision Pro (but not all of them)
This is partly reminiscent of the oft-discussed broader lament (or advantage, if you prefer!) of the current state of the VR interface - the physical overheads, or baseload.
Coming to terms with, not just the new advantages brought by VR, but also the new constraints, the new annoyances and workarounds - especially prevalent at the cutting edge of tech, as we all know.
Why every time a new technology comes out with crappy obvious limitations does somebody feel compelled to write a blog post trying to justify it as actually good? This is just somebody trying to talk themselves into keeping their $3,500 toy
Funny because I was saying “Yes! Yes! Yes!” to myself as I was reading. This author totally gets me and what I want out of AVP and it’s the first time I am even seeing it written somewhere.
The attention economy means that every time there's an opportunity, plenty of people will create attention grabbing responses with the common set of hot takes.
Same goes for comment sections and any time people get the opportunity to do anything with a possible attention reward. I've taken to being conscious of the kinds of obnoxious/unhelpful/nitpicking responses when commenting in threads to try to discourage low quality responses.
Author here—you’re not wrong, I’ve been a gadget enthusiast my whole life, and I deliberately left in the tone that I’m trying to justify owning an Apple Vision Pro, despite its flaws.
I was also serious that the flaws are part of the charm for me, because it really does harken back to the “gadget age” of the 2000s. It takes me back to being 15 years old, wearing a Fossil Wrist PDA, trying to be productive with Palm OS using a fingernail-sized stylus. I really loved that sort of thing, and it’s been really hard for me to recapture that feeling this past decade.
AVP is a device that, so far, has brought me joy and makes me think about my relationship with technology. If not for the price tag, it would be a no-brainer for me to keep. But as I continue to mess around with the device, the price is constantly ringing in the back of my mind, making me want to justify it, even though I may not be able to in the end.
I don't even get why people spend money on this stuff. You're just paying an idiot tax because you're a sucker for marketing. Someone who waits, say, 5 years before getting something like this will get more enjoyment out of it at a fraction of the price. Or it will just turn out to be a silly gimmick and they'll save the time and money entirely. Stuff like 3D TVs come to mind. The "patient gamers" subreddit seems to agree with this thinking. You basically just delay your game of choice by a few years. Makes absolutely no difference to you except you save money and perhaps skip some disappointing titles.
I intentionally wait years for a lot of things I want. Price aside, there are plenty of other benefits if the potential downsides (waiting, missing any social aspects, etc) aren't a big deal to you.
> Someone who waits, say, 5 years before getting something like this will get more enjoyment out of it at a fraction of the price.
Probably not more enjoyment, unless you pretend the early buyer can never upgrade ever.
> The "patient gamers" subreddit seems to agree with this thinking. You basically just delay your game of choice by a few years. Makes absolutely no difference to you except you save money and perhaps skip some disappointing titles.
It makes no difference if you almost never talk about the game with anyone and want almost no multiplayer out of it either. That fits some games but definitely not others.
I'm not really sure you're getting it about that last bit : For instance I have spent some free hours in the last few days catching up on a game that I haven't played in nearly a decade, originally released in 1999. Right now I'm staring at a multiplayer lobby with nearly a thousand people (and this is only of the servers, though likely the most popular one).
And if the game in question doesn't interest anyone after X years... there are probably good reasons for that ? Why would you first start playing and discussing it then ?
The multiplayer problem is that you're jumping in with 99% people that are extremely experienced, nobody else near your level. It's not a dealbreaker but it definitely changes things.
The discussion problem is that nobody you know is exploring the game. There's no collaborative learning and sharing and theorycrafting. Even if they played it they might not remember the story well after five years.
Wrong again - using my example, when I was looking at that chat, there were two people in the last few hours asking for other new players to play with them.
(And also one much more experienced player complaining that "nobody is reading the rules", and getting pushback about some "mandatory" rule that I guess some very experienced players are used to, but "we are not all as good at the game as you, bud".)
And this doesn't even take into account motivating your family/friends to play with you, there was one dad+son looking for tech support and at least one another dad+son game going on.
My theory is that those able to do delayed gratification are happier. Or it could be that being happier makes delayed gratification easier. Not sure, but either way there is a link.
In specific terms an early adopter risks disappointment and at best gets an early version of a product. Subsequent upgrades provide marginal enjoyment and often feel more like obligations than anything. The late adopter comes in when they know they need/want the product and they go from zero to a much later, more capable version of the product. And then get to enjoy just as many real quality of life improvements, they're delayed but the frequency can be the same. Plus they save a whole load of money.
> My theory is that those able to do delayed gratification are happier. Or it could be that being happier makes delayed gratification easier. Not sure, but either way there is a link.
In that case, someone that is easily able to delay but chooses not to might be happiest of all?
> Subsequent upgrades provide marginal enjoyment and often feel more like obligations than anything.
Uh huh...
I don't know, I don't find your argument at all convincing that this person gets less enjoyment considering they get to have the same product at the end.
Maybe they have less of a first day wow factor if they touch many intermediate versions, but that fades fast. But even that is a maybe because by splitting up advances you can give each one more focus.
Learning how to walk is way better than crawling, but you're not going to have more total enjoyment by waiting and going nowhere in the mean time.
> Plus they save a whole load of money.
Obviously they save money, but the interesting part of your claim was that they both save money and get more enjoyment.
Numerous studies in psychology suggest that the ability to delay gratification is indeed linked to better outcomes in life, including higher academic achievement, better health, and more profound personal satisfaction.
Instant gratification is largely simple decisions by simple people.
Right but the point is it's the ability to delay, not the act of delaying. For the act to be valuable, you need an external reason for it. You don't delay for the sake of delaying.
Even better. If you're happy for those 10 years then that's a good life. That's all there is to it really. Realistically there is going to be some balance between living a totally simple, low tech life and wasting money on the hedonic treadmill. It might be 10 years for some things (like cars) but perhaps much shorter for others, like going from dial up internet to broadband.
I don't think I made my point clear. If tech is now cheap and useful, it has become boring. If you wait 5 years, it's not delayed gratification because you won't experience the fun of playing with new tech, because it's not new anymore.
The whole gratification part comes from playing with the bleeding edge. It comes with dreaming of what this tech could become.
It's newn to you. I don't really understand why the knowledge that someone, somewhere has something shinier and newer would make you unhappy.
I shouldn't complain, though. Early adopters are like investors who don't receive any equity. They pay for the R&D etc that people like me later get to benefit from.
I’m a “wait for the 2.0 or 3.0” person, but I’m grateful to the people who dive in for the 1.0. They’re the people who provide the feedback that helps make the 2.0 better.
I find at least a little bit funny that it seems that completely new people now "discover" what you can do with VR, as if this hasn't been a thing for almost 10 years and certainly for the last 5 years (although with slightly lower resolution than with the AVP).
But then again, it helps the entire industry that it apparently has reached a different audience this time who gets hyped again.
I just wish there could be new use-cases than just the same old recycled use-cases like virtual monitors, watching movies, looking at how it is to stand on the moon, or virtual conferencing. Maybe there really are no killer VR apps, except beat saber :/
Wasn't AVP supposed to be an AR headset? Or they just haven't really figured out what to do there? Now it's just a VR headset with passthrough, it isn't really "using" the external world.
Oh, we are definitely in that punditry window where journalists write about an Apple product as if literally none of the precursor products matter at all, clambering over all the weaknesses and shortfalls as if they were the prone bodies of regular tech journalists who — perhaps distracted by their need for a long or wider perspective - fell on the ground on the way to be one of Cupertino’s chosen few.
Also the window where wealthy early adopters confuse their ability to spend ridiculous money on a beta product with actual possession of insight or wisdom; this is the Z-tier of access journalism.
This feels like an unnecessarily derisive take on a blog post where the author seems to just be expressing a personal experience.
I read it as saying "this thing has some major limitations that forced me to slow down, which is actually valuable for me because I have ADHD. I didn't expect that and it's kind of neat, but who knows if that's actually valuable long term. Also here are some other details about the device imo"
As someone who also has pretty severe adhd, I relate to the idea that barriers to impulsivity can be really valuable and it was interesting to read about someone experiencing that unintentionally. It makes me feel more connected to the world of people like me. I didn't come away thinking they're suggesting I buy one because I have adhd, honestly, I came away being _less_ likely to get one because of the author's description of their experience.
It was just an experience another human found neat and wanted to put on their blog. I personally like when people feel comfortable and inspired to share like that.
This happened tons with the first Apple Watch back in 2016.
This was basically completely new product category for many, many people. Yes, the Pebble existed, but the Pebble was niche and ultra niche. (I had one; loved the original and the Time).
The first Watch was crazy limited compared to today's variants, but the punditry was unceasing. Especially since you had people debating whether they should spend $10k on basically a flex.
About the ADHD part: I don't know whether I have ADHD but I do lose focus quickly once I figure out how to solve a problem, before doing any implementation -- after all the implementation, however long it could take, is boring and uninteresting comparing to figuring out how to implement.
So what if I get myself a Raspberry Pi 8GB and jumps into VSCode and VSCode only? Is it possible to make a VSCode "terminal" that only shows VSCode? OK let's make it more interesting: it also has network connection and the ChatGPT plugin for VSCode installed, so that I don't have to leave for another desktop to "find" something.
On any Linux system you can have no window manager (or an extremely minimal one) and just start a single application on login. It's been a while since I've done that and most stuff has moved away from X11 now, but yes exactly what you want is possible. To log in and have nothing but a single application, no menus, no desktop, etc.
I have the same problem, and sometimes I'll code with an ageing Thinkpad(just 8 gigs of ram on it and an i5 with pretty bad singe-core perf) on my couch, ssh into my desktop and run Emacs/vim that way. I still have a full environment on my Thinkpad, but the 13" screen means I don't always have my browser open(usually just the one terminal), and if I follow my impulse to open a hundred tabs of docs in a local browser, my system will slow down too much. Forces me to keep a clutter free setup to even get anything done!
Definitely think your idea is worth trying for yourself.
I think there is something about optimizing for comfort.
I've had a standing desk for 8 or 9 years now and I stand probably 75% of the time. When I sit, my chair is not very comfortable but also standing isn't always ideal either. This is while also mixing in 2-3 walks or jogs through out the day.
After working for ~8-9 hours in that environment and being up for 14-15 hours, sometimes when I'm in a vegetable state where I'm laying in bed watching a movie I feel highly motivated to work on something but I don't have a laptop and the thought of getting back up rarely wins.
With that said, I'd say my most productive "programming thoughts" happen right as I wake up and am laying in bed. I often spend 15-20 minutes thinking about exactly how I'll solve something and then get to that during the day. This is for both work and personal projects.
It’s well known that habits and mode of thinking change with environmental cues, and I find that extends to a digital environment as well. If you have a device that’s distinctly a “work” device and you’ve only ever used it for focused work, then your brain will hopefully catch on and keep you within that mode of thinking a little bit more effectively.
However, I find that with ADHD, a good “system” doesn’t solve all my problems. There is then the fundamental problem of regularly using that system, which it turns out ADHD also makes a serious challenge. So, yes, good systems have tremendous value, but just prepare for the undertaking of staying committed to the system you’ve set up for yourself.
I think it will be a lot of fun to build it and then because you built it you will be highly motivated to use it for a season. Maybe a few weeks. Maybe 6 months, but eventually it will will be boring too.
I find pomodo style gorilla warfare works best for me. I tell myself I will work on the implementation for 15 minutes. If after 15 minutes I am still repelled by this task to the point I am unproductive, then I accept that, make necessary notes and do something else.
I will try again tomorrow. Eventually I hit a point where I have done enough that I am motivated to continue to see it completed.
I will do gorilla attacks on cleaning my office, writing marketing email, inbox zero, implementing some new feature. It works for me for a lot of things.
When I am just unable to do what I’m “supposed” to do then I give myself grace and go do the thing that is consuming my attention at the moment.
This “unproductive” stuff often becomes new ideas, new features, new friends, and brings meaning to my life.
As a fellow-sufferer of attention deficit, I am the same way. Once I've mapped out a solution, I mentally checkout and procrastinate on doing the actual implementation. One thing that's helped me is by practicing "Deep Work" by absolutely resisting any urge to check my phone during that 45 minute focus time (like pomodoro technique).
Last month, I prototyped a desktop app of a blinking border to assist with getting into a "flow state", which has been pretty effective in keeping me focused for set durations for the past few weeks. Shared with a few friends who have also said it's helped them be more productive so happy to share these tools with fellow HN'ers.
Email in my bio if you wanna give it a try before I launch it on App Store in the coming weeks.
Thanks. I think for me, going deep is really good. Pomodoro never worked for me as I prefer to wrap up everything, or at least one milestone in one shot, so I have to spend hours. Good luck for the app BTW!
Yeah that would work, minimalism and artificial constraints are ways to help manage ADHD. The other thing to think about it is that your mental solution is probably wrong and won't survive implementation. Consider that a challenge to focus on.
I don’t know if “not finishing what you start” is adhd or laziness. How do you know you solved something if you don’t implement it? For myself I have decades of evidence that show the first proof of concept I think of is always very different from the final product. It’s even more different when I’m working with a team.
I am not convinced. First let’s be clear that there is minor ADHD which is a world of focus issues and minor distractions, and then there is catastrophic ADHD which is like living through the movie Momento in a world where memories don’t stick.
I live in a household with catastrophic ADHD. I really have no idea what minor ADHD is like, but the last thing catastrophic ADHD needs is a gaming experience. A gaming experience is not going to cure the brain damage that causes people to require a minimum of 11 hours of sleep per day or misplace everything they own, including clothes, shoes, and wrist watches.
We have, but we didn’t try enough types of medication to find an ideal fit. I suspect the right medication would be helpful. The more extreme the ADHD the higher the concentration of medication is required to achieve normal functioning which means high side effects.
To understand the complexity of brain medication requires an understanding of the problem. For ADHD the problem is both dopamine and low serotonin. Dopamine is complicated and moderating for it has second and third order consequences the ill cannot see. Solving for serotonin is simple and the results are crystal clear. So it seems many of the medications attempt to adjust for both with various degrees of success. When a person with ADHD attempts to self medicate with drugs, stimulants, or bad food choices they are solving for serotonin up take and it doesn’t work.
Another problem with medications in high concentrations is body tolerance which eventually eliminates the value of the medication and medication can run out.
Currently we are working through behavior modification of risk/reward. If you lose something you don’t have it anymore so perform a deep dive on that emotional consequence to think of solutions and planning to address that moving forward. This is working but it’s supremely and requires overcoming lots of adversity.
I won’t tell you not to use medication. Most of the world drinks caffeine everyday.
Maybe it truly is necessary for some people. But I would really caution its usage. It’s the same as putting a hammer and slamming it against the person’s brain. It’s also temporary and goes away the moment the drug disappears.
Meditation has the benefit of bringing permanent positive changes. But more importantly it acts in a way that recognizes the incredible complexity that our brains consist of.
> For ADHD the problem is both dopamine and low serotonin.
No mental disorder is caused by low anything. ADHD (some types) are more like you have extra leaky neurons and the dopamine falls out of them. On the other hand, serotonin drugs working for depression seems like it might be a coincidence.
Not the OP, but I also have catastrophic ADHD as they so eloquently put it.
I've tried several techniques, that have had some minor initial success, but I just get bored and stop doing it. Which is also why I never became a better than beginner guitar player, properly filled out my opening repertoire in chess, finished almost any project I started, or did regular exercise. I just can't get myself to do boring repetitive tasks.
"catastrophic ADHD" is probably one of the best ways I've seen it described. At times I get hit with just how many things it's ruined over the years and it just makes me feel completely hopeless, like I don't even have any control over my life at all. I don't know if I ever will. It sucks feeling like I could be intelligent and have great potential but my ability to turn that potential into real action is so impaired that I'm almost completely useless and never achieve any of my actual goals.
I've tried to meditate before, but... it doesn't really work. If I try to think less, then thoughts will just hide themselves from me. repeatedly, some new fully-developed thought will just suddenly reveal itself to me, having already been developing for the past 10+ seconds without my knowledge. And this will just keep happening. Stuff just keeps happening in the background and I have no control of it. It's like other parts of my brain are thinking completely for themselves and all I can do is watch and beg for control, and never get it.
I'm autistic, and that type of experience is commonly recognized as an autistic pattern of thought.
I don't want to live like this, the catastrophic ADHD, but it doesn't seem like there's any way to fix it. I feel like my brain is completely defective.
> If I try to think less, then thoughts will just hide themselves from me. repeatedly, some new fully-developed thought will just suddenly reveal itself to me, having already been developing for the past 10+ seconds without my knowledge.
That sounds like successful meditation, because noticing this is the first thing you're supposed to learn using it.
Just practice it going away again once it shows up.
It almost sounds like it, but I can't control those thoughts. They happen on their own. I've been told one of the ways to successful meditation is learning to be a passive observer of these thoughts, to let them happen but not engage in them, but I definitely don't know how that works.
Interesting. I definitely have an internal universe, but I've been trying for almost a decade to access it. Meditation does not work unless I'm on certain drugs, all of which that are legal having stopped working for that purpose. The only way I have found is to find another real person and actually describe it to them as I explore. If there is nobody else there, it is as if my internal universe does not even exist. Even my DID system seems to stop existing. I just become a completely empty shell unless there is somebody else around to observe me. In other words, it does not seem like it exists for me, but only to be observed by others.
I want to fix this, but I do not think that is possible...
Also, the technique recommended in the video doesn't sound like something I can do since I don't feel like having to explain the weird noises to the other people in my house.
I don’t wish to be rude but why do you think the author needs to convince you of something regarding what sounds like a very different and difficult circumstance for you?
Seems like they're just offering their perspective. I'm sure the author wanted other perspectives, seeing as they wrote a blog post about it, and then posted it here themselves.
It struck me as quite the non-sequitur really. Didn’t address any of the content around the Vision Pro, defined ADHD as something different to the article and then used it as an opportunity to dump about their personal struggles.
When people ask me what my personal experience of adhd is, I describe it as being the worlds best street magician--except I'm also the mark--and I suck at making things reappear.
It's an interesting idea, but you can emulate this(lack of distractions) with some pretty simple configuration of your window manager, so it seems like a poor justification for buying a $3500 device in and of itself.
> This has an interesting effect. I feel less inclined to mindlessly open and use apps, because it has become a fundamentally mindful gesture to do so.
This is a really important point, but I don't think it requires $3500. Switching to an android phone and a portable split keyboard for most (non-programming) deep work resulted in a huge uplift in focus for me, and I really think it's because it made context switching more of a mindful, intentional act. These days I get way more focused writing done on planes/trains/cafes on 4 inches of screen than I think I've ever done on my instant-context-switch-keyboard-shortcut-for-everything tiling wm laptop.
Working from home has been pretty difficult for me as a person with ADHD, everything is just so distracting that I actually went from 3 monitors to 2 monitors to now only just the laptop screen so that way I can force myself to focus. I can't imagine being productive with Vision Pro and it's "infinite" screens and infinite browser tabs. It would be productivity hell for me.
Tho, I have been trying a few different techniques to get myself more focused such as deleting TikTok and forcing myself to keep my phone on Do Not Disturb., etc.
I've even recently built an desktop app around the techniques described in this other HN Post here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38274782 and using some techniques in Cal Newport's book "Deep Work" which has significantly helped me stay focused and get into a flow state much easier. I'm going to be launching this app soon in the App Store in the coming weeks. Would love to share my app with fellow HN'ers and get some feedback.
Email in my bio if any one wants to give it a try.
Interesting, for me working from home is a little easier because I don't have the distractions of the office. I get caught up in everyones conversation, so I end up being distracted every time someone else is doing something.
I've never heard of anything like the concept mentioned in the linked article, what is your app? Is it going to be for MacOS? Have you found it useful?
I can only imagine that over time this mindful clumsiness will give way to me feeling super bored and tweaked when I took off the device after I’ve become accustomed to YouTube videos and apps filling an otherwise empty ambiance around whatever I’m doing in normal space.
With VisionPro I feel again like MBP M1 just came out. You definitely a very cool technology in front of you, but at the same time, you also see how many things aren't ready, and you always need to figure out hoops and various workarounds to make it to work. But with the time M1/M2/M3 improved soo much.
I am keeping my Vision Pro not for the experience that we got right now (well, not only) but also for the one that I hope to experience with various app releases and updates. WWDC 2024 is coming, and I am sure there is going to be a huge VisionOS update.
Why not wait until it is useful before purchasing it? I know plenty of people who bought the Apple Silicon Macs too early, and their productivity dropped because too many things didn't work.
> Putting myself in an "environment" also seems to have the effect of eliminating distractions from the outside world. I'm not glancing around at the stuff in my office every time I pause to think.
I found that reading glasses had a similar effect for me. It helped me focus on the book or paper I was looking at and made me less distracted by other people walking by. Of course, it's less useful at preventing computer-based distractions, since they're all at the same focal distance.
> I'm currently typing this blog post in a floating window in the middle of snow-covered Yosemite. I am a floating body manifested into the transcendental Tim Cook matrix. I look into the sky and follow the soft clouds as they pass overhead. They slowly part, revealing Steve Jobs' smiling face watching over me from the heavens above. I am merely one more thing.
god damn; this is the most dystopian shit i've read in a while.
"real" outside isn't good enough to work in, so i'll pay $3500 to work in a fake outside in my own house and wear that headset while i'm in real outside to tailor this outside to my preferences.
interpreted another way: "real" outside is nice, but everything costs more money than i want to spend, so i'll spend $3500 once (or $1500 to buy the 1G headset) to create infinite "outsides" that i don't have to spend more money on
like, are we actually okay with this???
this might be me showing my age (late 30s) but i'm actually scared of this technology becoming mainstream and destroying whatever semblance of society we have left.
exmaple: why should people go to bars when they can just strap on a vision pro and put themselves in a bar that's perfect for them while drinking their own supply in their own home?
if that takes off, then anyone who actually likes going to real bars (me, for ex.) are basically forced into the virtual bars since real bars as a whole won't be economically viable anymore.
extended out further, walkable cities won't be necessary since everyone will be interacting through these kinds of headsets in their home, self-driving cars will be the only kinds of cars that are legal to drive, and most businesses would have moved into the metaverse since that's where the money is
i'm basically afraid of Ready Player One becoming real
Nah. People will still go to bars. We couldn't wait to be done with the COVID restrictions and I'm still making up for all the lost time, long nights where I roll onto the street at 6am when the last club closes lol.
Also don't forget a motive is to meet people and hook up. That won't be as good virtually as in real life for a long time.
The difference between COVID and this is that you can put this device on and be wherever you want to be while, theoretically, "interacting" with whoever you want.
While I definitely understand and even partially agree with you, there's something partially elitist in the attitude of, "just go do it IRL."
This tech will eventually be available to most people on the planet in the same way smartphones are. But vacations to Yosemite likely won't be. And that's not counting doing stuff like standing on Mars or traveling to a fantasy world.
I have an AVP and it is cool as hell, but I enjoy taking it off when I'm done with the thing I'm doing. I think most people like IRL. I don't think having more options for experiences is a bad thing.
Talking about the mindfulness and friction of opening apps, resizing windows and interacting with buttons is a terrible foreshadowing. The famed and fabled Apple UX magic seems to have possibly jumped the shark. I recall no such awkward friction when interacting with the Meta Quest menus. Each UI action requires zen-like eye focus? Someone should have vetoed that on the drawing board.
Apple seems to have made some important advances in passthrough, hardware and hand tracking occlusion. It seems they are probably 3-5 years behind Meta on UX and ecosystem. Meta also appears to be more advanced when it comes to gesture tracking and currently your hands can serve as both pointers and clickers quite well.
I have both headsets and AVP is way more intuitive when you get used to it. I think you're reading too much into this author's penchant for exaggeration.
The Quest 3 UX is still very bad in some places and it is very buggy still. So is the AVP. This is all still early days.
The last thing I'll say is that the Q3 hand tracking is absolutely terrible compared to the AVP. It's not even close.
I think a lot of the complaints around the eye tracking stuff is skill issue — it’s brand new device, people have very few hours of experience. I picked mine like 6 hours ago, and my first session I struggled with targeting, but I spent another couple hours with it pretty much just moving windows around and cleaning the house, and now it’s feeling much more precise. Practice.
I cleaned the whole house today wearing my Apple Vision Pro. It’s a great dopamine delivery system; much easier way to have a YouTube video going while vacuuming than a phone propped up somewhere. Likewise in the laundry where there’s not enough space to put down a device. I’m not sure if it’s just the novelty halo effect that will dissipate, but it’s encouraging me to keep it past the 15 day return window.
(I’m an ADHD person and happy to have a gadget that’s helped me Do Things I Usually Avoid)
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 165 ms ] threadWill the Vision Pro trigger derealisation in schizoid/borderline people?
Also I am not sure what the problem is that is unique to those with ADHD. The issues raised are the same for everyone.
The joy of ADHD is that issues that seem the same as everyone else's are often far more difficult/easy to manage.
Amazon is 30 days, and it has made 14 days look stingy this day in age.
A de facto standard in the US.
Some other countries have stronger consumer laws in place that define statuary return policies.
Making a purchase is very different from getting one to try. Beyond a 14 days return policy, you start getting abuse from people trying to exploit the exchange policy.
As many people say, 14 days is kind of a standard. Many companies have even fewer days so read the fine print before you buy. If you don't like the return policy, don't buy it.
If you absolutely have to have one on Day 1 but don't feel 14 days is sufficient, maybe evaluate why you need it on Day 1? Wait for some other people to have it in their hands, and the rentals/loans usually start a few weeks after launch.
How is it more wasteful than keeping something you're not going to use?
The wastefulness comes from the fact that the barrier to purchase is pretty low, given the ease of return, so one is more likely to buy an item which may end up in the trash in 14 days (30 for Amazon).
If I absolutely couldn’t return a product (aside from defects), I’d not buy a lot of items in the first place.
(I say this as someone who is guilty of plenty of “trials”).
I’m actually travelling through Japan right now, where one can visit a Yobadashi or Bic Camera, these stores are great, because all their tech is out and able to be played with, without explicitly getting assistance from a staff member. It’s obviously not the same as bringing a camera etc into the field to test, but it goes a long way in deciding if something works from an ergonomic perspective, before purchasing it.
The biggest question will be if it’s too much of a pain that I don’t want to use it at all.
I just wonder if the friction imposed by a new tool—which, in this case, is a net positive—will become less noticeable and therefore less of a benefit. Compared to something like a smartwatch, which has impassable constraints no matter how much you get used to it, or even an e-ink screen.
I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device and as things stand right now I’m not sure if the apple Vision Pro is going to be more than that for me either. I wrote about this in my first impressions blog post [0], but what I really wanted was to use the Apple Vision Pro as a replacement for my computer monitors, it’s just not there yet. I look forward to future revisions and I’m also on a 13 day countdown to decide if I want to keep this or not.
[0] https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/03/apple-vision-pro-first-im...
Same until I got the keyboard. Most of my iPads collected dust in a corner because I don’t really do that much consumption.
Then I got the Magic Keyboard and my iPad basically replaced my laptop. I use it for almost all my non-coding work. Even to give talks and workshops at conferences. The battery life is amazing, the form factor super convenient, and it fits on airplanes or in your lap perfectly.
Nowadays my laptop mostly works as a desktop computer sitting in its dock hooked into a keyboard, monitor, and mouse. Useful only for very serious work.
Unfortunately iOS is very nerfed compared to MacOS even though my M2 iPad probably hs more compute than my i9 laptop.
I think my only other complaints would be these:
1. Scrolling in Safari can be annoying depending on the website. Last night I was trying to refactor some GitHub Actions, and scrolling through the Action run page, it really wanted to get stuck selecting random parts of the GitHub UI that were close to what I was looking at but definitely not what I was looking at. I want some kind of cursor I can pick up and move in those scenarios I guess.
2. I don’t know why but I kinda expected my iPad keyboard to just work with the AVP, but it obviously did not. I wanted it to work like it does with the Mac, where I can just connect to the iPad as another screen and also use its peripherals, but that was not the case, so I had to run up to my office and grab a Bluetooth keyboard.
All in all it’s not a bad experience so far. I’m not sold on it being better than the iPad just because the AVP is so heavy. But it’s definitely cool having a gigantic 4k terminal floating in the air above my bed while my wife reads her book and calls me a turbonerd. :P
I started to write the feature but could feel the added friction and slowness. There was a little bit of input lag (moving mouse and feel like it wasn't moving as quick on the AVP), then I started getting an error from my backend in a place I hadn't touched anything. I very quickly took off the AVP to investigate with the "full power" of my MBP and external monitors.
The text in the AVP is clear when you are looking at your code but moving your head "smears" the picture a bit and anything you aren't focusing on isn't clear. It would be workable and maybe I'd use it on a plane but never if I have my monitors available to me. I want to try again in the next few days but it's a decent way off from replacing my monitors.
With regards the ‘smearing’, not sure how familiar you are with VR tech but, could you characterise it further?
Some things it may be off the top of my head:
Is it the display not switching pixel state fast enough? This was a problem with early Oculus headsets until we figured out how to strobe displays for ‘low persistence’.
Or, is it eye tracking lag, resulting in the foveated rendering not keeping up with where you are looking quickly enough? Human eyes can move extremely quickly from point-to-point (called saccades).
Be great to get your thoughts on the possible cause / tech limitations.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
Sure, but the vision pro offers "bigger" monitors that can fill your vision (if you want)
That would be a really curious limitation.
My statement was of course about the AVP; everyone knows you can use bluetooth mice on a mac.
The pointer comes up like when you use a trackpad or mouse with the iPad.
1: https://joshstrange.com/2012/03/21/why-i-canceled-my-college...
I think if this becomes the only reason to keep the device, for sure explore some other options like Quest 3 and see if it's sufficient. It does a lot more things than a Vision Pro and costs so much less. It's pretty personal whether the resolution cuts it or you really need the quality of the Vision Pro or not, but it works for me.
I feel like I really should have waited for Quest 3, not have gotten a Quest 2 because it was cheaper. Then again, I quite like the concept of VR and if some of the software wasn't so buggy (currently I need to run GPU drivers from 2020 for my RX 580, since the newer ones cause driver crashes), I can definitely imagine myself spending more time in VR! Except for eye strain and basically staring into super bright screens close to my face.
Once I eventually get there, just chilling in space, with a few floating windows and getting some work done will be a pretty zen experience. Just have to wait a while until the hardware becomes more affordable.
One thing it convinces me is that the resolution in Vision Pro is completely unnecessary for me. I need about 20% more resolution and I am done, after that other things are more important.
I met a Facebook recruiter once, maybe 3-4 years ago, who was bragging about how his team was collecting data about the interiors and uses of private indoor spaces.
If I'm in a charitable mood, I’ll take that to mean “contents of stores and restaurants,” but I’m not always so optimistic
But I swear Im getting the vibe from preview videos that hand interactions with windows etc have what looks like a 100ms lag on them.
Can anyone confirm if there is lag when moving objects around in this thing?
Cos that would wear on any user fast.
( I hope it doesn't I'm really looking forward to this, Im just wondering if its as perfect interactionwise as iphones are )
But thank you for replying! It sounds like you like it mate.
Coming to terms with, not just the new advantages brought by VR, but also the new constraints, the new annoyances and workarounds - especially prevalent at the cutting edge of tech, as we all know.
Same goes for comment sections and any time people get the opportunity to do anything with a possible attention reward. I've taken to being conscious of the kinds of obnoxious/unhelpful/nitpicking responses when commenting in threads to try to discourage low quality responses.
I was also serious that the flaws are part of the charm for me, because it really does harken back to the “gadget age” of the 2000s. It takes me back to being 15 years old, wearing a Fossil Wrist PDA, trying to be productive with Palm OS using a fingernail-sized stylus. I really loved that sort of thing, and it’s been really hard for me to recapture that feeling this past decade.
AVP is a device that, so far, has brought me joy and makes me think about my relationship with technology. If not for the price tag, it would be a no-brainer for me to keep. But as I continue to mess around with the device, the price is constantly ringing in the back of my mind, making me want to justify it, even though I may not be able to in the end.
I assume You are being deliberately ridiculous?
Probably not more enjoyment, unless you pretend the early buyer can never upgrade ever.
> The "patient gamers" subreddit seems to agree with this thinking. You basically just delay your game of choice by a few years. Makes absolutely no difference to you except you save money and perhaps skip some disappointing titles.
It makes no difference if you almost never talk about the game with anyone and want almost no multiplayer out of it either. That fits some games but definitely not others.
And if the game in question doesn't interest anyone after X years... there are probably good reasons for that ? Why would you first start playing and discussing it then ?
The discussion problem is that nobody you know is exploring the game. There's no collaborative learning and sharing and theorycrafting. Even if they played it they might not remember the story well after five years.
(And also one much more experienced player complaining that "nobody is reading the rules", and getting pushback about some "mandatory" rule that I guess some very experienced players are used to, but "we are not all as good at the game as you, bud".)
And this doesn't even take into account motivating your family/friends to play with you, there was one dad+son looking for tech support and at least one another dad+son game going on.
In specific terms an early adopter risks disappointment and at best gets an early version of a product. Subsequent upgrades provide marginal enjoyment and often feel more like obligations than anything. The late adopter comes in when they know they need/want the product and they go from zero to a much later, more capable version of the product. And then get to enjoy just as many real quality of life improvements, they're delayed but the frequency can be the same. Plus they save a whole load of money.
In that case, someone that is easily able to delay but chooses not to might be happiest of all?
> Subsequent upgrades provide marginal enjoyment and often feel more like obligations than anything.
Uh huh...
I don't know, I don't find your argument at all convincing that this person gets less enjoyment considering they get to have the same product at the end.
Maybe they have less of a first day wow factor if they touch many intermediate versions, but that fades fast. But even that is a maybe because by splitting up advances you can give each one more focus.
Learning how to walk is way better than crawling, but you're not going to have more total enjoyment by waiting and going nowhere in the mean time.
> Plus they save a whole load of money.
Obviously they save money, but the interesting part of your claim was that they both save money and get more enjoyment.
Instant gratification is largely simple decisions by simple people.
You're allowed to like tech even is it's not yet practical or even when it clearly will never be.
The whole gratification part comes from playing with the bleeding edge. It comes with dreaming of what this tech could become.
I shouldn't complain, though. Early adopters are like investors who don't receive any equity. They pay for the R&D etc that people like me later get to benefit from.
But then again, it helps the entire industry that it apparently has reached a different audience this time who gets hyped again.
I just wish there could be new use-cases than just the same old recycled use-cases like virtual monitors, watching movies, looking at how it is to stand on the moon, or virtual conferencing. Maybe there really are no killer VR apps, except beat saber :/
Wasn't AVP supposed to be an AR headset? Or they just haven't really figured out what to do there? Now it's just a VR headset with passthrough, it isn't really "using" the external world.
Also the window where wealthy early adopters confuse their ability to spend ridiculous money on a beta product with actual possession of insight or wisdom; this is the Z-tier of access journalism.
I read it as saying "this thing has some major limitations that forced me to slow down, which is actually valuable for me because I have ADHD. I didn't expect that and it's kind of neat, but who knows if that's actually valuable long term. Also here are some other details about the device imo"
As someone who also has pretty severe adhd, I relate to the idea that barriers to impulsivity can be really valuable and it was interesting to read about someone experiencing that unintentionally. It makes me feel more connected to the world of people like me. I didn't come away thinking they're suggesting I buy one because I have adhd, honestly, I came away being _less_ likely to get one because of the author's description of their experience.
It was just an experience another human found neat and wanted to put on their blog. I personally like when people feel comfortable and inspired to share like that.
This was basically completely new product category for many, many people. Yes, the Pebble existed, but the Pebble was niche and ultra niche. (I had one; loved the original and the Time).
The first Watch was crazy limited compared to today's variants, but the punditry was unceasing. Especially since you had people debating whether they should spend $10k on basically a flex.
So what if I get myself a Raspberry Pi 8GB and jumps into VSCode and VSCode only? Is it possible to make a VSCode "terminal" that only shows VSCode? OK let's make it more interesting: it also has network connection and the ChatGPT plugin for VSCode installed, so that I don't have to leave for another desktop to "find" something.
What do you think?
Definitely think your idea is worth trying for yourself.
I've had a standing desk for 8 or 9 years now and I stand probably 75% of the time. When I sit, my chair is not very comfortable but also standing isn't always ideal either. This is while also mixing in 2-3 walks or jogs through out the day.
After working for ~8-9 hours in that environment and being up for 14-15 hours, sometimes when I'm in a vegetable state where I'm laying in bed watching a movie I feel highly motivated to work on something but I don't have a laptop and the thought of getting back up rarely wins.
With that said, I'd say my most productive "programming thoughts" happen right as I wake up and am laying in bed. I often spend 15-20 minutes thinking about exactly how I'll solve something and then get to that during the day. This is for both work and personal projects.
However, I find that with ADHD, a good “system” doesn’t solve all my problems. There is then the fundamental problem of regularly using that system, which it turns out ADHD also makes a serious challenge. So, yes, good systems have tremendous value, but just prepare for the undertaking of staying committed to the system you’ve set up for yourself.
I find pomodo style gorilla warfare works best for me. I tell myself I will work on the implementation for 15 minutes. If after 15 minutes I am still repelled by this task to the point I am unproductive, then I accept that, make necessary notes and do something else.
I will try again tomorrow. Eventually I hit a point where I have done enough that I am motivated to continue to see it completed.
I will do gorilla attacks on cleaning my office, writing marketing email, inbox zero, implementing some new feature. It works for me for a lot of things.
When I am just unable to do what I’m “supposed” to do then I give myself grace and go do the thing that is consuming my attention at the moment.
This “unproductive” stuff often becomes new ideas, new features, new friends, and brings meaning to my life.
Last month, I prototyped a desktop app of a blinking border to assist with getting into a "flow state", which has been pretty effective in keeping me focused for set durations for the past few weeks. Shared with a few friends who have also said it's helped them be more productive so happy to share these tools with fellow HN'ers.
Email in my bio if you wanna give it a try before I launch it on App Store in the coming weeks.
I live in a household with catastrophic ADHD. I really have no idea what minor ADHD is like, but the last thing catastrophic ADHD needs is a gaming experience. A gaming experience is not going to cure the brain damage that causes people to require a minimum of 11 hours of sleep per day or misplace everything they own, including clothes, shoes, and wrist watches.
To understand the complexity of brain medication requires an understanding of the problem. For ADHD the problem is both dopamine and low serotonin. Dopamine is complicated and moderating for it has second and third order consequences the ill cannot see. Solving for serotonin is simple and the results are crystal clear. So it seems many of the medications attempt to adjust for both with various degrees of success. When a person with ADHD attempts to self medicate with drugs, stimulants, or bad food choices they are solving for serotonin up take and it doesn’t work.
Another problem with medications in high concentrations is body tolerance which eventually eliminates the value of the medication and medication can run out.
Currently we are working through behavior modification of risk/reward. If you lose something you don’t have it anymore so perform a deep dive on that emotional consequence to think of solutions and planning to address that moving forward. This is working but it’s supremely and requires overcoming lots of adversity.
Maybe it truly is necessary for some people. But I would really caution its usage. It’s the same as putting a hammer and slamming it against the person’s brain. It’s also temporary and goes away the moment the drug disappears.
Meditation has the benefit of bringing permanent positive changes. But more importantly it acts in a way that recognizes the incredible complexity that our brains consist of.
Some meditative insight might reveal that, in fact, everything is temporary. Therapies don't need to be cures.
No mental disorder is caused by low anything. ADHD (some types) are more like you have extra leaky neurons and the dopamine falls out of them. On the other hand, serotonin drugs working for depression seems like it might be a coincidence.
Strattera mostly affects norepinephrine though.
I've tried several techniques, that have had some minor initial success, but I just get bored and stop doing it. Which is also why I never became a better than beginner guitar player, properly filled out my opening repertoire in chess, finished almost any project I started, or did regular exercise. I just can't get myself to do boring repetitive tasks.
It means you’re giving your brain a good workout basically, and it’s improving.
I've tried to meditate before, but... it doesn't really work. If I try to think less, then thoughts will just hide themselves from me. repeatedly, some new fully-developed thought will just suddenly reveal itself to me, having already been developing for the past 10+ seconds without my knowledge. And this will just keep happening. Stuff just keeps happening in the background and I have no control of it. It's like other parts of my brain are thinking completely for themselves and all I can do is watch and beg for control, and never get it.
I'm autistic, and that type of experience is commonly recognized as an autistic pattern of thought.
I don't want to live like this, the catastrophic ADHD, but it doesn't seem like there's any way to fix it. I feel like my brain is completely defective.
That sounds like successful meditation, because noticing this is the first thing you're supposed to learn using it.
Just practice it going away again once it shows up.
I want to fix this, but I do not think that is possible...
Also, the technique recommended in the video doesn't sound like something I can do since I don't feel like having to explain the weird noises to the other people in my house.
This is a really important point, but I don't think it requires $3500. Switching to an android phone and a portable split keyboard for most (non-programming) deep work resulted in a huge uplift in focus for me, and I really think it's because it made context switching more of a mindful, intentional act. These days I get way more focused writing done on planes/trains/cafes on 4 inches of screen than I think I've ever done on my instant-context-switch-keyboard-shortcut-for-everything tiling wm laptop.
Tho, I have been trying a few different techniques to get myself more focused such as deleting TikTok and forcing myself to keep my phone on Do Not Disturb., etc.
I've even recently built an desktop app around the techniques described in this other HN Post here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38274782 and using some techniques in Cal Newport's book "Deep Work" which has significantly helped me stay focused and get into a flow state much easier. I'm going to be launching this app soon in the App Store in the coming weeks. Would love to share my app with fellow HN'ers and get some feedback.
Email in my bio if any one wants to give it a try.
I've never heard of anything like the concept mentioned in the linked article, what is your app? Is it going to be for MacOS? Have you found it useful?
I found that reading glasses had a similar effect for me. It helped me focus on the book or paper I was looking at and made me less distracted by other people walking by. Of course, it's less useful at preventing computer-based distractions, since they're all at the same focal distance.
god damn; this is the most dystopian shit i've read in a while.
"real" outside isn't good enough to work in, so i'll pay $3500 to work in a fake outside in my own house and wear that headset while i'm in real outside to tailor this outside to my preferences.
interpreted another way: "real" outside is nice, but everything costs more money than i want to spend, so i'll spend $3500 once (or $1500 to buy the 1G headset) to create infinite "outsides" that i don't have to spend more money on
like, are we actually okay with this???
this might be me showing my age (late 30s) but i'm actually scared of this technology becoming mainstream and destroying whatever semblance of society we have left.
exmaple: why should people go to bars when they can just strap on a vision pro and put themselves in a bar that's perfect for them while drinking their own supply in their own home?
if that takes off, then anyone who actually likes going to real bars (me, for ex.) are basically forced into the virtual bars since real bars as a whole won't be economically viable anymore.
extended out further, walkable cities won't be necessary since everyone will be interacting through these kinds of headsets in their home, self-driving cars will be the only kinds of cars that are legal to drive, and most businesses would have moved into the metaverse since that's where the money is
i'm basically afraid of Ready Player One becoming real
Also don't forget a motive is to meet people and hook up. That won't be as good virtually as in real life for a long time.
This tech will eventually be available to most people on the planet in the same way smartphones are. But vacations to Yosemite likely won't be. And that's not counting doing stuff like standing on Mars or traveling to a fantasy world.
I have an AVP and it is cool as hell, but I enjoy taking it off when I'm done with the thing I'm doing. I think most people like IRL. I don't think having more options for experiences is a bad thing.
Mid 20s here and I'm absolutely scared about how people cheer and want these gadgets. Not too far from a black mirror episode, just in slow motion
Apple seems to have made some important advances in passthrough, hardware and hand tracking occlusion. It seems they are probably 3-5 years behind Meta on UX and ecosystem. Meta also appears to be more advanced when it comes to gesture tracking and currently your hands can serve as both pointers and clickers quite well.
The Quest 3 UX is still very bad in some places and it is very buggy still. So is the AVP. This is all still early days.
The last thing I'll say is that the Q3 hand tracking is absolutely terrible compared to the AVP. It's not even close.
(I’m an ADHD person and happy to have a gadget that’s helped me Do Things I Usually Avoid)