First of all the COVID pandemic is still going on, the idea that it's over is just wishful thinking backed by irresponsible media and governments.
Even without the very real risk of contracting a dangerous disease that can cause long-term health problems, it's fine to prefer a slower, less frenetic phase of civilization. Science and capitalism have delivered technology and wealth, we won history, we just have to relax, take care of each other, and live happily ever after. "Where shall we have lunch?", eh?
“The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why, and Where phases. For instance, the first phase is characterized by the question 'How can we eat?' the second by the question 'Why do we eat?' and the third by the question 'Where shall we have lunch?”
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
That's the neat part, the powers that be have decided it's over because it's endemic and supposedly not as dangerous anymore (even though new cases of long covid are popping up, the silent long-term pandemic that nobody really wants to address even though there's millions of people affected by it.
How would you define the end of having your arm sawn off? Observing that your arm is still missing years later is not "downgrading the meaning" of missing a limb. The definition of the word "pandemic" has no connection to the duration of the phenomenon. Barring concerted international intervention or game-changing technological innovation- like the development of a sterilizing vaccine- COVID will remain a problem indefinitely, lowering quality and quantity of human life.
Fewer than ten thousand new cases a day (for the USA).
> "I think if we can get well below 10,000, I think that would be a level that I think would be acceptable to us to get back to a degree of normality," Fauci said. "But again, I have to warn the listeners, these are not definitive statements — these are just estimates."
I think it's good that the status quo got mixed up a bit. The introverts don't have to defend themselves or feel like outsiders quite so much.
This article aligns stay-at-home-ness with "fear," "a fettered life," "hardly worth living" and says "retreating ... is an ultimately selfish choice." I believe that's a bit of a poor take. Plenty of people live rich, productive, fulfilling and engaged lives that don't especially involve a lot of interactions with other people.
This author is clearly someone whose habits were impinged by the changes brought on by the pandemic ("... naturally outgoing people – this writer included – have found it that bit harder to get their friends out of the house."), but is that the end of the world?
It almost feels like the author is eager to get back to what they are comfortable with, at the expense of (by their numbers) 1/3 of other people's lifestyles. It's almost like they are the ones afraid of this change — like they are the selfish ones.
But I don't really go for the whole us-vs-them approach at all. It has been a great (if forced) learning experience. Some people got to discover happiness they didn't know before. Other people felt the loss of something they took for granted. Perhaps we should share these lessons with each other and bring some balance and increased awareness, rather than pointing fingers and taking sides.
If I had to guess the author's friends are likely getting married and having kids, going through a different phase in life, the author isn't, and is thinking this must be the universe conspiring against his way of life, instead of the usual "nothing is forever".
No one is entitled to the attention of others and the pandemic helped many of us to notice our time is finite and we should better spend it doing what we like and want. Be it being at home on a couch in slippers or otherwise.
They aren't, but at the same time the world sure is feeling more lonely. Old friends will move on, but I did notive that Meetups never really recovered in my area post pandemic (and they weren't in great shape in 2017-9 to begin with). What does one do when it feels like there's nowhere to make friends?
>helped many of us to notice our time is finite and we should better spend it doing what we like and want.
It's not necessarily volunatry for everyone. Everything's more expensive and not everyone's gotten wages that keep up with inflation. Or they got laid off and are recovering from that. It just so happens the cheapest entertainment these days is in fact in your own house.
I haven't been back to meetup after the pandemic as I moved cities but most of the meetups I used to go didn't come back, which is unfortunate. I guess the main option is for you to start your own, not much else to be done. Before the pandemic me and a friend resurrected the Golang meetup in PHL and it was mostly a success, you won't know if it will work or not unless you try it.
It also seemed like Meetup jacked up their prices. I remember seeing a lot of groups go dark after warnings from Meetup that their maintainers had abandoned the group due to the cost.
> Old friends will move on, but I did notive that Meetups never really recovered in my area post pandemic
I think there is this setup period when parents do things for their kids and the rate of things decay as we get older, more lazy and less enthusiastic.
Covid just made the middle age boring happen earlier, which people blame on their kids normally, for a generation and they didn't recover.
Pubs have raised the price of a normal beer 2x where I live since pre-covid. The pub culture, which was allready weak, is not coming back any time soon.
Maybe late 90's. 80's Home computers were fairly expensive if you adjust for inflation and media was limited (and far from instant. Oh, the dial-up days where even saving a Gamefaqs guide could take minutes. Can only wonder how the early 90's went). In addition, it was much cheaper than today to go out on a bar crawl or even the arcades.
But i think we both agree entertainment got cheaper while outside life more expensive. We can grab internet connected devices for barely $100 and a single entertainment subscription (Netflix, Gamepass, Spotify) is maybe $10/month for an entire catalog. I can't even go out for lunch for $10 unless I do Costco.
In the 1980s, it was typically things away from the computer - renting videos or video games from Blockbuster and things like that. Not to mention all of the actually interesting things on cable.
The local video store would run a deal over the summers when I was a kid where you paid $30 and got three, two night rentals (new releases excluded) a week for the summer school break. Being able to grab a new game or movie every other day (since you were already there to return the previous one on time) was great.
Looking at Budapest, how it was 10-20 years ago, and how it is now: there is something in what the author tries to convey. I’m not saying that it’s a problem, and it’s definitely healthier how people in their 20s live now there, but before and after COVID young adult personal life in Budapest are wildly different. Night life is clearly dying in Budapest, and my friends under 25 go out waaaay more infrequently (and not just with me). Heck I’m in pubs in Budapest as much as them, and I don’t even live in Hungary anymore. And not just pubs, but basically every shared public space which is good to gather with random friends. I met with my closest friends in person almost every day (not because of university, or work), they meet maybe every other week. So I think that there is really some change.
I think it's honestly a good thing for hardcore introverts to stay home when they want to hibernate. Socialising with someone when they clearly don't want to be there is exhausting for me, let alone them, and nobody wins.
At the same time, as someone who straddles the line between introversion and extraversion, it does feel like there's a higher activation energy for me now. I want to go out and do things, but it often seems to require more planning and more mental effort. I'm not happy with this change in myself, but there doesn't seem to be a quick way to fix it other than just putting more deliberate effort into being social and less into all the other stuff.
I think the author is projecting her own feelings onto introverts in this piece. I feel the same way as she presumably does. Lockdown changed me in ways I don't like, albeit minor ones, and it's something of a struggle to manually keep doing the social things my old self did automatically.
I agree, I think this article is addressed more to the people on the fence rather than the hardcore introverts who feel certain that achieving their fullest lives doesn't require much social interaction.
>Lockdown changed me in ways I don't like, albeit minor ones, and it's something of a struggle to manually keep doing the social things my old self did automatically.
loosening friendships didn't help. People got busier or maybe they are fine with how the lockdown changed them. It already took some time to arrange even small hangouts, but these days it seems like I barely see my "best" friends if it's not some special occasion like a birthday or very big convention.
I don't think the extent to which people feel comfortable socialising stays constant. I'm naturally introverted, and with a few exceptions I find being in other people's company exhausting - however I'm not a complete loner, and do enjoy it in smallish doses. It's as if I have a "level of fitness" socially. In my head, I consider that "forcing" myself to go to social events maintains this fitness.
Now think of the pandemic lockdown. It could have caused introverts to have lost their social fitness entirely.
I've noticed this as well. I think it's a pretty good analogy. That realization came after being homeschooled for a few years as a teen. In my case, this meant less opportunity to socialize. After returning to public school, my "level of fitness" increased pretty quickly to way it's consider normal/healthy. The pandemic had similar effects that required a bit of effort to correct.
Just like physical fitness, some need more/less exercise to stay fit. There will also be different preferences for were that exercise is done (at or outside the office).
This post resonated with me. I'm also naturally introverted but I've realized over the years (I'm in my 40s) that forcing myself to go out and be social regularly is ultimately good for me. I've noticed that my social skills have declined somewhat since COVID and now I feel a lot more mental "inertia" I have to push through if I want to go to a social event.
introverts need a little push to work the muscles that let you socialize and interact.
extroverts need a little push to work the muscles that let you sit quietly and contemplate.
hopefully society doesn't succumb to one side dominating so half the people get to be lazy while the other half is constantly exercising. ideally everybody get a mix of exercise and rest.
Except for the fact that there is no easy escape from actual slavery while you can just quit your job and find another. You might have to move, you might not make as much money but at least you're free - not a slave.
I was recently in a relationship with someone that worked as a recruiter and thus is very much a people person. One of the frequent complaints she brought up was how I could have lived to my 40s and still be so bad with people.
I don't know where I'm going with this except maybe that extroverts simply do not understand introverts. They read about it and think they know our issue, but they don't understand it or don't believe it's a real thing.
> but they don't understand it or don't believe it's a real thing.
Yeah, this seems to underlie a lot of misunderstandings. I was reading on another recent HN thread about people's ability to form mental images[1] and it shows a similar struggle of people with different minds trying to understand each other.
The older I get, the more I get the sense that people can be quite different on the inside, yet live a lot of their lives being unaware or unbelieving of how much mental variety is out there.
Au contraire, there's a difference between social skills and introversion.
You can be introverted and have strong social skills. In fact, if you want to be successful, you will need strong social skills. Development is one of the few areas in which this is not the case, although the people who move up will have the strongest social skills.
Some will view it as playing politics, being manipulative, what have you. But ultimately these aren't personality traits, they're skills.
It's possible to be an extrovert with bad social skills, i.e. you're obnoxious. Or an introvert with fantastic social skills, i.e. you're the next CTO. Some, maybe even most, introverts don't know this. So they don't develop their skills and wonder why they don't succeed.
All to say, the recruiter is 100% right. How CAN you be 40 with such poor social skills? Well, you're an introvert and everyone has told you your whole life that's not for you. So you purposefully ignore those skills.
As you alluded to, it's also easy to forgo chasing these skills when we can make decent money just solving puzzles while only requiring the most basic of emotional intelligence.
This is funny because I generally have something similar for extraverts. I agree with your take that extraverts don't understand introverts and it's because our true skills lie way beyond a shallow five minute conversation.
”I used to think I was introverted because I really liked being alone but it turns out I just like being at peace & I am very extroverted when I’m around people who bring me peace.”
So, I’m breaking up with you. It’s not me, it’s you.
The ability to live our lives online well predates the pandemic. Remote work hasn't prevented experiences (except perhaps being tied to a commute), it's enabled us to live more flexible lives.
My partner (extreme introvert), and myself (somewhat an ambivert) have travelled the world for 6 years as digital nomads and rarely if ever do extroverted things. But introvert is not the same as not leaving the house.
We've done ~50 countries, quietly, patiently and without broadcasting our lives for all to see. We've learned to sail and lived on a sailboat for a while without starting a youtube channel so the world can follow us doing it.
I find the article mostly to be flawed and ridiculous. Calling introverts selfish is obnoxious. This reads like a (fake) column from "Sex and the City".
Carrie: "I found myself wondering if humans would go extinct if they didn't go to bars every night".
That's what a lot of people don't get about introverts. Yes, I interact with people, and yes, I leave the house. I just interact with certain smaller set of people which I am not eager to extend on each opportunity (it may happen, but slower), and I leave the house when I feel like it - which may happen less frequently than some other people, so what.
I've always looked at introvert vs extrovert as how someone recharges their mental battery. I think of myself as a Social Introvert. I like socializing with other people when I'm recharged, but I need alone time to recover. When I'm done being social, I'm 100% done and can't be bothered to continue interacting.
I didn't get that the article is black and white, but... I do have a sincere question. Isn't it good that we be forced to socialize a bit more than makes us comfortable? Analogy: in middle school I, an overweight non-athlete, was forced to run a mile at the end of the semester and the end of the year like all students. It was miserable. But it's undeniably good that kids be able to suffer through a reasonable amount of cardio.
Can one make the same argument about introverts? Sincere question, not rhetorical.
On one hand, I agree that getting outside of one's comfort zones is often good for personal growth — that could be introverts being forced to be extroverted a bit, or extroverts being forced to be introverted a bit, and all sorts of other traits.
Some people don't like dancing — maybe we should force them to dance, regardless? There's a fine line between encouraging/pushing someone to do something or try something for their own good, and letting people live their own lives in their own way.
The way you phrase your question makes me think that you conceive of introversion as a sort of health problem — like being overweight. I'm sure that's true of many people. Just look in this thread for all the overlap that people have between being depressed and being introverted / staying at home / etc. But I do just want to plant the seed in your mind that there can be introverted people who are quite happy and healthy and "living their best life," so to speak, too. They may be dancing, just with nobody looking.
To answer this and another comment, I think of it being able to manage social interactions reasonably well as a life skill. Without it people can have a really bad day if they have to deal with aggressive salespeople, unpleasant customer service issues, or overbearing family members.
The dancing analogy is a good one but while I can go a month without dancing I cannot go a month without required human interactions that put me in uncomfortable positions.
A peer post suggested that one should therefore force extroverts into uncomfortable situations too. My thought here is that I’m not trying to torture one group but not another. School forced me to be more athletic than I found enjoyable. I don’t believe it was that they were trying to make me feel bad, even though that’s exactly what running does for me. By analogy I would not ask the school athletes to gain extra weight just because I was forced to jog a mile.
I don’t have a dog in this race. I’m not even suggesting that it should be done, just sort of bringing up the thought experiment. I’m an ambivert or whatever it’s called. I could happily spend a year not dealing with people but I can also do it with unusual skill when called to do so.
> By analogy I would not ask the school athletes to gain extra weight just because I was forced to jog a mile.
This is why I don't like your analogy (no offense meant); it approximately correlates extrovert=healthy=strong and introvert=unhealthy=weak. While I don't think athletes should be forced to gain weight, I do imagine it's good for extroverts to have to sit with themselves in quietude a little more than they might otherwise, just like I imagine it's good for introverts to do the opposite. Not in every case of course, but speaking broadly.
So I guess I see it as two equally-valid approaches trying to understand each other better, more than anything.
Maybe what I'm saying is: I agree with you — it's a good idea. But it's opposite is also a good idea, and I wouldn't want it to be one-sided.
Maybe another point of fuzziness is whether "introverted" means "bad at social interactions" or "prefers to avoid social interactions" (and/or "finds social interactions draining"). I tend to see it as the latter, but maybe you mean it as the former?
Yes, only if you genuinely agree with the same argument about extroverts, i.e. force them to be in solitude for more than they feel comfortable.
I'm not talking about literally locking them up in jail, but let's say if your logic holds, we should be able to say COVID did extroverts a lot of good by making them appreciate solitude during the lockdown periods.
I'm not all that familiar with Bruckner; but reading about him seems to make me feel like he's not a contemporary anymore; probably not understanding the complexity here.Not to mention the impossible understanding of per jurisdiction differences.
>here had been waves of terrorist attacks across Europe, and endless headlines about the climate emergency coming for us all.
Which has everything to do with this war.
>I think it's good that the status quo got mixed up a bit. The introverts don't have to defend themselves or feel like outsiders quite so much.
It's not so much what the introverts are doing, it's all about what the extroverts arent allowed to do anymore. Having been prohibited by law. Whereas the introverts have not been attacked YET.
>It almost feels like the author is eager to get back to what they are comfortable with, at the expense of (by their numbers) 1/3 of other people's lifestyles. It's almost like they are the ones afraid of this change — like they are the selfish ones.
Agreed, you can see the narcissism in the article.
>But I don't really go for the whole us-vs-them approach at all.
100% it's us vs them. There's no balance to be struck, the attack has been ongoing for a long time and if you surrender in this fight, it will only be getting much worse. The big difference is that
I haven’t read the article, but I think the question of whether or not aspects of one’s personality are disordered or maladaptive are valid, and can be managed with reason, without resorting to a question of insult.
Sure, but "introvert" would be the incorrect terminology for such things. Introvert is not the same thing as depression or social anxiety. Its not even really right to consider it a mild form of those things as extroverts can also be those things.
I strongly suspect that there's a non-trivial number of people who self-identify as introverts who really just suffer from a lack of social skills. Especially among those who consider introversion to be an especially important or interesting personality trait.
That said, this author just seems like somebody who's social skills aren't keeping up with their social ambitions. Anybody who can't find people to socialise with the way they want to needs to look at themselves to find the problem, not everybody else.
The article is unfortunately disingenuous and cannot be trusted to make an honest argument.
> In late 2023, campaign group More In Common polled British people on their attitudes towards pandemic life ... a third of 25 to 40-year-olds backed closing nightclubs again, 29 per cent were keen to bring back “the rule of six” and 28 per cent would have been comfortable with “only allowing people to leave their homes for essential shopping, 60 minutes of exercise, or work”.
They're mixing two polls and making it sound like these people CURRENTLY support these measures. Those numbers were from a poll taken BEFORE any COVID restrictions had been put in place at all (i.e. what SAFETY measures should we enact to slow the pandemic?): https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/31kfnjxi/mic-covid-res...
It took a lot of digging for me to find it, and I can see why they didn't want to link to it. And just in case one wants to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, they finish off with this flourish: "This was more than a year after the last legal restrictions were lifted in the UK, in line with global health policy."
So yeah, a baldfaced lie.
> Still, French philosopher Pascal Bruckner argues, “life means excess and profligacy or it ceases to be life."
Uhh... WTF??? That's precisely the mentality that has led to the ecological disaster we're entering today!
> Who will win the war?
WHAT war??? Who's fighting a war over this?
> As Bruckner puts it, “a new anthropological type is emerging: the shrivelled, hyperconnected being who no longer needs others or the outside world. All of today’s technologies encourage incarceration under the guise of openness.”
> Uhh... WTF??? That's precisely the mentality that has led to the ecological disaster we're entering today!
I've found out that extrovert crowd is often also the crowd who will say things like:
- I am sure we'll figure it out later
- Well, this might be problematic in the future, but will give us such big gains in the short term (by which time they already happily moved their show to another company, leaving the quiet ones to deal with what they left behind)
- Great job, team, we managed to fix the problem/disaster/oil spill (who caused it in the first place).
- I am healthy, I can take the risk of not having a mask (and not thinking of the immunocompromised and the old)
We should, imo, treat people like that not only with unease that one reserves for charlatans, mystics and mime performers. We should actively show them that their loud, rude, obnoxious and overbearing ways deserve a bit of our scorn as well. Let's stop not only following loud fools, but even listening to them. They crave our attention, let's stop giving it to them.
> Still, French philosopher Pascal Bruckner argues, “life means excess and profligacy or it ceases to be life."
The same way cancer cells are life. They excess and proliferate.
The way this article is written feels very selfish with a distinct lack of empathy for how so called introverts might have felt in a similar position
Thing like this feel especially disingenuous
> Living a real, physical life outside the home is good because humans need friction. Convenience is alluring but it is dangerous, because getting used to it means forgetting that being alive isn’t meant to always be easy. We should run our errands in person and queue at the Post Office and eat in restaurants because it is good to remember that sometimes we have to wait around, or go to several shops because the first one didn’t have what we needed.
These are things I was able and am able to do without have to go to the office five days a week
Technology is giving introverts access to a deep, meaningful, beautiful social life. In real life, I can be a fish out of water in my interests, but on X I am a social butterfly with dozens of friends and several very dear friends.
I mean, the stereotype of the nerd staying at home coding with blinds shut down(which is what I did yesterday) doesn't come out of the blue, even if not representative of the population per se and a bit cliche it has its roots in something that probably happened more than once
> Everyone knew there were introverts and extroverts, homebodies and socialites, but it had never really mattered. The two groups complemented each other and managed to peacefully cohabit.
What a very extroverted perspective. "Everything was fine when the world was structured around an extroverted lifestyle. Then the pandemic hit and everything was miserable for a bit, but what's even worse is that those darn introverts aren't happy resuming their natural place in society!"
The pandemic gave us a taste of what life could be like if the world were structured around our preferred way of existing instead of yours. It turns out we liked it, and now that we've had that taste we're not comfortable resuming the old status quo where we just tag along for the ride in an extroverted world.
It boggles my mind that someone can write an article like this and not realize that what they're saying is they wish a group of people would go back to being an underclass.
> "Everything was fine when the world was structured around an extroverted lifestyle. Then the pandemic hit and everything was miserable for a bit, but what's even worse is that those darn introverts aren't (happy) resuming their natural place in society!"
Hence "Return to Office", and the failure thereof.
Wow. That's pretty offensive. Pretty sure I worked much more during WFH. Hybrid makes Mondays and Fridays feel more like they're part of the weekend, and then all the social events are packed into Tu-Th now so... Jokes on them I guess?
I have no doubt RTO appeals to extroverts socially, but the sudden and seemingly coordinated push to RTO is about tax breaks:
>New Jersey and Texas are states that stand out for spelling out exactly how often employees must work from the office to qualify for tax breaks. Before the pandemic, several New Jersey tax programs required workers to show up at least 80% of the time, and one Texas program set the threshold at 50%.
>Provisions like these were designed to ensure that the jobs boosted local revenue from income, sales and property taxes, and bolstered downtown economies.
Yes but no one was ever going to check for each individual employee which is why it's so frustrating that some people were forced in. $Dayjob always gets the innovation tax credit and it's literally just "hey did you innovate? Y/n." RTO but if you're someone who really cares then stay home is a system that makes everyone happy— or at least nobody mad. After months of hand-wringing my work relented to this by having a medical exception that was broad enough that in practice anyone could get it.
RTO initiative seemed more like an attempt at value extraction more than anything else.
Buildings have mortgages, surrounding businesses need to be supported, etc... Local economies dipped and some hedge fund portfolios suffered, and RTO was the only way to pump their bags.
As an extrovert, I can safely assure you that the world was never structured in a way favouring extroverts. I still had to go out of my way to get the amount of contacts and activity I wanted.
It really was a middle ground which was quite unbalanced by the pandemic and has pretty much come back to a middle ground now (we do 3 days in office - 2 days off but no one here is stupid enough to get a typical American commute thankfully).
The fact that so many in software are extreme introverts will be a surprise to no one however.
I suppose it depends on your perspectives. The overton window shamed introversion as being weird while glamorizing extroversion. I can't say how hard/easy it has been to be extroverted, but there was no shame factor (which an introverted person would say is a favor).
Unfortunately your assurances don't mean much because neither one of us has experienced the other's struggles and so neither of us is equipped to make an objective comparison.
I can tell you that up through high school I watched my fellow introverts get shamed and bullied for being quiet and awkward, but I never saw someone get bullied for being too outgoing.
I can tell you that all my life (including in this very comment section) I've had people explicitly tell me that if I just tried harder I'd learn to like social activities because humans are just wired that way, but I never heard anyone say that if a highly social person just tried harder they'd learn to like a quiet weekend at home.
I can tell you that I've only started receiving promotions and recognition at work to the extent that I've been able to feign extroversion, and my more introverted colleagues who aren't as good at faking it don't do as well.
None of that—being bullied and belittled and passed over for not being social enough—has ever felt like a middle ground to me, and there's not a lot that you could say that would persuade me to view it that way. It's easy to think of the status quo as the middle ground when it's comfortably on your side of the line, so I'll need more than your assurances to doubt my own experience.
Everyone like a quiet weekend at home from time to time. My experience from a non American background is that people get introverts fairly well (also as a very awkward and to himself teenager I missed the memo where it said introversion was supposed to be shameful) but social interaction is essential.
Obviously you only get promoted when you can promote your work. No one is going to magically guess it exists.
Anyway HN is funny sometimes in its refusal to face that they are the odd ones. I fear that any person who would have a contrarian opinion as pretty much moved on from ever discussing WFH here I the same way it was a complete waste of time to argue with the anti-systemd crowd.
I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me.
European and pretty hardcore introvert here: you're not mentioning the important fact that introverts are basically invisible to 99% of the fairer sex.
> Obviously you only get promoted when you can promote your work. No one is going to magically guess it exists.
There are managers, like me, who will judge your work by your work, not by how loud you are, nor by how much you drank with me at the company party. If you are a developer, I don't need to magically guess about your work, I can see it in your commits, I can review them, I can see how much, how often and how well you contribute.
As a matter of fact, no matter the amount of talk and "promoting" your work, I will still judge you ONLY based on the actual work. Maybe I am slightly biased against "talkers", but I've found out that doers' work often needs no "promotion" and it speaks for itself. As for talkers, well, they are probably still talking. Maybe it's better if they go to a big company, so they can mix up with doers who actually do work.
The less we talk about the work, and more actually doing it, the faster we can do the work, and get on with our lives, wouldn't you agree?
> I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me.
People who think the only differentiating factor between them and a lower paid worker in a different country, is not their work, but their physical presence and self-marketing tend to work for bosses who enjoy seeing their workers as a form of control. I think it's a match made in heaven.
Luckily, there are also people who are confident in the quality of their work without having to "market it", and bosses who judge a person's skill by the results. Which, I hope you agree, is also a match made in heaven.
> I never heard anyone say that if a highly social person just tried harder they'd learn to like a quiet weekend at home
The full school institution actually do it. Teachers tell students to stop speaking to each others for most courses during the week. Moreover some teachers explicitly talk about the joy of quietly reading books, and directly ask students to do so.
I'm fine with the way school works, especially considering the limited resources they have. Nevertheless, teachers do not often encourage extroverted skills that are useful in group work, oral presentations, etc. Exams seem to favor people that are able to stay hours long alone thinking about abstract concepts.
I question the life choice of anyone that chose to have a 3h commute and apparently they do to because they would like to WFH. I think a lot of people are blaming their companies for situation they put themselves in but that’s on trend with the spirit of the time.
Since Germany was mentioned, I will say that there is a policy debate in Germany right now about taking away unemployment benefits [1] from anyone who refuses a job with up to 3h commuting time. So a 3h commute is not necessarily something that people choose, unless the other choice is to not have any household income.
[1] This denomination is slightly oversimplified to avoid giving a lecture on how social welfare works in Germany.
No jobs near my home and can't afford a decent housing near my office with my salary. But yeah, right, it's my fault. Luckily my employer is more clever than your post and will happily let us work from home for 3 days since he values our work.
If I can live and work in a comfortable spacious house with a garden and no traffic nearby, why would I subject myself to renting a 1 square meter flat in an overly busy overly pricey city, just so I can slave my hours in an office?
We now have the ability to get big bucks and pay little rent for good housing, and not be stuck like sardines in traffic, and not having to listen to extroverts' incessant yapping.
Why does it make you mad? We nerds don't have the rights to happiness?
> That’s your own choice. No one has a duty to adapt the work environment to suit it.
Nope, wrong. It's not my own choice only. It's the choice of many many people, increasingly more, enough that employers have to reckon with us. Hopefully you don't feel threatened or upset about it, cause it's happening, it's gonna happen more, and no amount of corporate shoe-licking can stop it.
There are plenty of people who are okay to be stuck 3 hours in traffic, or pay an exorbitant rent just for the privilege to be working in a cubicle. Increasingly so, however, many are rethinking this arrangement and refusing to work in an environment that doesn't suit them.
So, I don't know about duty, but employers can go f*ck themselves if they can't provide what I am looking for, and I won't settle for less, both in terms of flexibility, remote options, and salary. And since there's many of us starting to think like that, some employers will start seeing reason, and provide an accommodating work environment. To stay competitive, others will have to follow or settle for sub-par workers and potentially (hopefully soon) go into oblivion.
Employers who can't or won't adapt the work environment to the demands of the workers, will perish, and those who can, will flourish. It's as simple as that.
Oh, really, they do. And no amount of corporate boot-licking can change that. It's, and always will be, worker power.
> You are confusing what you want with what’s happening.
It's possible that you are confusing a potentially bad situation you are in, with what's happening to the rest of the worker force, many of who are empowered and hold a considerable bargaining power in the market. More and more of us have been getting a 4 day work week without the loss of pay, and the right to work remotely.
I, for example, am happily on a 4 day work week, and haven't been to the office in 3 years, and so are many of my colleagues and many other people in the industry. No amount of corp simping or RTO mandate will bring this back.
I am the furthest thing from an introvert imaginable. I've just spent my weekend surrounded by about 40 of my friends at a festival, and if it were up to me I'd be there for another week minimum.
I'd rather be locked up in a padded room alone than suffer through the office.
Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting, because I just don't care about them. I have actual friends whom I see a lot more often these days thanks to WFH, and nothing on this planet is going to convince me rotting away in an open air office is better than the alternative.
I'm not a Yank, and referencing your other comment in this thread about the commute, I'm a ~10 minute bike ride from my office.
I just don't care about my colleagues in a friendship context. I only interact with them because I have to professionally, but from my last 4 companies I haven't made a single lasting friendship. Because, again, I have a lot of actual friends who I'd much rather see than the random people from my office.
> Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting, because I just don't care about them.
When Google and Facebook were getting headlines for their gourmet cafeterias and fancy game rooms and encouraging their employees to work and socialize at the office, I remember saying “I’d rather drink piss beer at a dive with my real friends than a fancy cocktail at work.
If the world has some zero sum decisions to make, are you shocked someone wishes it worked out for them?
Extroverts wish they could go back to socializing and excelling at work in person, and introverts wish they can stay at home at the expense of extroverts. One or the other loses in the workplace.
The difference is that we generally do not recognize a right to coerce someone else into meeting our needs, but we do generally recognize a right to meet our own needs.
This is why articles like this rarely come out and say "I need the introverts to come back to social events to meet my needs", they always try to frame it as about productivity or (as very condescendingly demonstrated here) about the mental health of the introverts themselves.
I think the balance we need to get to has to be one where extroverts are meeting each other's needs by working in teams that choose to be in person and hanging out with each other socially rather than moping online about how everything is so much less fun. You don't need to drag us along for the ride to have a good time.
I agree with the author a little bit but overall I think she's mainly being selfish and ego-centric.
What I agree with: We have built ourselves a society where it is far too easy to fall into a secluded lifestyle. That's not a problem for everyone but it does supercharge depression and anxiety. Both of these lead to you thinking that being left alone is good for you when actually looking at any research about them is not the case in the absolute majority of cases. Both get worse with lower amount of social contact and extrusion structure in your life. In the past the pressure to go outside and have some structure was much higher and thus depression and anxiety probably had more of a grave period where people around you had a chance of realizing you were getting worse and you had a chance of still pulling yourself out of it enough to get help early. Today the behavior of someone who is just really happy alone and somebody who is spiralling into depression becomes ever harder for me to tell apart.
The rest of the article to me just reads like "but I'm an extrovert and I liked it better the way it was before". Yeah, sorry not sorry? If your friends take more effort to get them to do a pub tour these days maybe they just weren't as much into pub tours as you are? Yes, the pandemic changed our society from catering mainly to extroverts to one that now makes it much easier to be not cut off entirely while taking time for yourself as an introvert. If you don't want your introvert friends to be able to have that, you're the problem in that picture.
> If your friends take more effort to get them to do a pub tour these days maybe they just weren't as much into pub tours as you are
I got the strong impression that the author wasn't always as much of an extrovert as they believe. Tons of people go out all the time and it sounds like they need to get new friends after outgrowing the old ones.
> We have built ourselves a society where it is far too easy to fall into a secluded lifestyle
This should be one of the the prime problem of every government. It's a hard thing to solve, but is the root cause of a lot of other, more better recognised societal issues.
My eyes were tantalizingly close to rolling out of my head throughout reading this, but I had to stop altogether at this point:
> We should run our errands in person and queue at the Post Office and eat in restaurants because it is good to remember that sometimes we have to wait around, or go to several shops because the first one didn’t have what we needed. Resilience is one of the most important traits a person can and should develop, and it works like a muscle. Glide effortlessly through life and, when something bad does happen, because it always will, you won’t know how to react.
Waiting around is pointless. The most resilient people find ways to avoid it and have actual hobbies and lives to live. This entire article just sounds like weird propaganda promoting a very confused perspective.
I think there's something to be said for being bored once in awhile though. Helps you reset. I think a nice long vacation once a year will cure that better though
> Waiting around is pointless. The most resilient people find ways to avoid it and have actual hobbies and lives to live. This entire article just sounds like weird propaganda promoting a very confused perspective.
Removing everything you don't like from life is not good for you. Having everything you want is not good for you.
I don't understand this prevailing perspective in highly individualistic societies that pain is good. If you can achieve the same result without the pain why is that so bad? When does it become progress?
If I can be healthy just by taking a pill a day as opposed to dying, what's the harm? Lives are saved and that's... bad... somehow?
If I can get my nick nacks without going to the store what's the harm?
Sometimes things are too good to be true. But most of the time, things really are just good. They are just better. You do just progress forward. That's why I can write you this comment instead of writing a letter and waiting weeks for a response. Why did we give that up? Isn't waiting painful, and therefore good? I don't think so.
> If I can be healthy just by taking a pill a day as opposed to dying, what's the harm? Lives are saved and that's... bad... somehow?
No, that's great! Despite what some of the comments claim, I'm not saying "suffering FTW!". I'm saying that working towards goals is literally in our DNA, and getting everything you want won't make you happy.
Your letter example is a good one. On the one hand, it's incredible that I can communicate with many people at once across the world from my desk. The benefits are obvious. What's not so obvious are the benefits of having to write letters in the old days:
When you have to spend so much effort in communication, it's worth much more to you. You take more time, think about what you're saying more, and most importantly; feel much higher rewards. Low effort, low returns.
It really reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes comic where Calvin imitates his dad and says "Calvin, go do something you hate. Being miserable builds character!".
It's funny that out of a not so small corpus, most of which I can't recall, this is the one line that I actually found memorable. Great line. I use it IRL some times.
It's also a weird assertion because you also have to wait around for takeout/delivery. You could also just cook at home, which usually ends up taking just as long and takes actual effort instead of just sitting around which, in theory, would build even more resilience.
This, and most writing on introverts/extroverts, go out vs. stay home, office vs home office, etc. leaves me feeling unrepresented and oversimplified. I, and I really assume most people, see the good in both approaches. I am an introvert, in the sense that I need time alone to recharge, but I am also (like almost everyone, I assert) desperately in need of in person social contact. It's tiring, but so are work, and sex, and sports, all also things I need. Is it so hard, in so many areas, to write a n engaging article that people will read that says "hybrid is better than either extreme?". (In terms of clicks, I'm assuming "yes")
I am more and more comfortable but I as an introvert... am starting to somewhat regret it on certain cases, health wise, getting to know new people, etc.
I feel like if you're a 40+ year old adult with a life already made you definitely love remote work, learning new technologies being unable to be shamed at opening a youtube video next to your coworker is also nice, but I do miss the ability to meet new people naturally.
The whole introversion vs extroversion thing doesn't capture the essence of how people actually are. People have different levels of energy depending on who they're around. They can feel drained or recharged depending on who they're interacting with
For me it's the type of interaction ; in social / comedic / etc settings, I love meatspace interaction, as well as audio and video. In professional settings, I prefer text chat or email or docs; it fully tires me out having to wait for the ultra slow human speak that I have to focus on nonetheless to convey a thought I could've read in less than 1 sec if it were written down. And when it's written, I can skip the drivel; irl you have to be polite about it too.
All my friends/family consider me an extrovert, my colleagues are sure i'm an introvert. I like both.
> Everyone knew there were introverts and extroverts
Except there are no such things. Intro/Extro are used in the ocean of questionable personality science to describe character traits. Even within some of the "worst" culprits of it, character traits are never considered to be set in stone. Contrary to what you may now think, I'm actually a fan of personality tests like DISC for professional teams. For their actual purpose, however, which is as tools which lets team members talk about their strengths and challenges in a much more open and focused way than simply sitting them down and talking about how to do team work. Especially with introvert/extrovert the whole thing becomes a little silly though, a lot of people will be more introverted one week and then more extroverted another, depending on a multitude factors in their lives. To be fair to the author, she does seem to mostly use it as a way of getting their point across, I just don't like it when people think you can ever describe people as either introverts or extroverts because it's frankly just plain bullshit.
Anyway, when I read the authors complaint about it getting harder to get friends out of their homes I looked up the author's age, and she's 33. Guess what happens in your early thirties? It gets harder to get your friends together, not because they've become introverted but because adult life takes a lot of energy and effort. The last to get children in a social circle are going to feel this the hard way. I'd argue that there are also facts like cost, which the author doesn't go into. I like going to the cinema, but where I live it'll quickly end up being $120 for a ticket and popcorn + soda. Back in 2018 it was maybe $50 and basically nothing of the experience has changed. It's not that I can't afford it, it's more a question of me being a scrooge.
One thing we have done in my friend circle is to get together "at home" more. We'll meet up to cook dinner and play board games while the children play. We still schedule Dungeon and Dragons but the frequency is like 4-8 times a year where it may have been every week before. It also has to happen during the day because evenings aren't a good time to be out with small children in the house. I have a season pass to a themepark where I go with one my friends and our eldest children, we don't actually do a lot of rides we just hang out while the children have fun. Basically post 30 social events will often need to become things where you can bring children or be out from 10-16. Which is very different from your late 20ies, but not necessarily less social.
This is absolutely not what I'm seeing. Travel is at an all time high with crazy amount of traffic jams, every weekend. Restaurants are full, parks, museums.. full. It is almost eerie just how everybody is going out and about like there is no tomorrow. I reduced my friend circle willingly, otherwise they would keep nagging me about doing stuff together, but I currently want to spend time on my own projects.
I’m personally tired of how everything worth doing is already mobbed by others.
I blame the death of video games and media during and post Covid. The games and movie and TV industries are shells of their former selves, and are actively in decline right now. Why should I stay home to replay games from the 2010s (since nothing in 2024 is worth playing) when I can simply be part of the problem by going to the national parks or hot springs every weekend?
Plus, we all know that most people who are on the fence tend to regret introverted activities since they are “nerdy” and the opposite of glamorous. Going out to a national park is a chad move, staying home and doing introverted stuff literally keeps you a virgin (and this bears out in sociological data)
Murders on the Yangtze River, Animal Well, Nine Sols, Snufkin, Chants of Sennaar, Slay the Princess... I could go on for a while. How are there no games to play? Those are all recent and fantastic.
Yeah, this seems to match up with my observations more. Online spaces seem far less active, while real life tourist destinations and hospitality businesses are absolutely mobbed. Definitely feels like a high percentage of people are trying to 'make up for lost time' after being locked in during the pandemic.
I see the author is born in 1991, so they got from ~29 before the pandemic to ~33 now. This is an age where ime such changes are very probable to happen in our generations anyway when the age groups one associates oneself with are around that, pandemic or not. The author probably connected them with the pandemic because maybe there was not continuous time of them happening as it normally would, due to the lockdowns, and it would seem like one just woke up to a new reality after. But some of what the author describes (eg less spontaneity in going out) would probably have happened in some way.
It seems to me that if one is in such a position, they may need to find new friends whose lifestyle align more with theirs instead of being condescending that they know what people should do better than them, or seeing the world through binaries that do not exist (introversion-extroversion is a normally distributed trait, not bimodal).
So, what are the salient points in this article? It's on a humanist website, and I kind of like humanists, and, in principle, humans, so I read it carefully.
* Habits change. This insight is the bulk of the article. Restaurants are mentioned three times, but restaurants are a relic of class divisions from around 1900, where a patron is pampered by servants, while leaking money in all directions. So their continued existence is surprising, and maintained by habits, and the pandemic was a shakedown for habits.
* Something about resilience. Should I mention preppers? They tend to be introverts, I think, and they're all about resilience, so that confuses matters. But the general idea here is that soft pudgy cybernauts would be bewildered in an emergency that could not be dealt with by ordering deliveries. Could they go out and, like, ask for help, or patiently hunt for food in a crisis? I think the answer is actually mostly yes, and those who were conspicuously helpless would be helped, and this is really a non-issue. Go out for a pointless walk as non-specific training against divers emergencies is not great advice.
* Something about surprises (stimulation), and serendipity. This is a fair point but it's expensive, at least in terms of time, and the payoffs aren't so great. In return for losing an hour of coding, you might see a squirrel. I endorse this in moderation. Of course here I'm ignoring the main thrust which is about human interaction: as well as the squirrel, you might speak to an old lady (they constantly prowl the streets, waiting for scraps of conversation). And that's true, and adds variety, I suppose. There's a point in the article where this whole thesis of a massive crisis of shut-ins is watered down to advice to merely go out once in a while. In that light, the situation looks like less of a big deal. People still leave the house, a lot. It's only a change of emphasis, not, I think, a real problem.
>Restaurants are mentioned three times, but restaurants are a relic of class divisions from around 1900, where a patron is pampered by servants, while leaking money in all directions. So their continued existence is surprising,
Modern-format restaurants have been around since the late 1700s, but there's plenty of records of people eating in food-serving establishments in ancient Greek and Roman societies. I'm sure other, even more ancient societies had similar things, which are now lost to history.
1900 because that was when "the servant problem" arose, the problem being that nobody wanted to be a servant any more. But in some contexts the dynamic is maintained.
I may be off by plus or minus three decades. Maybe 1930.
What are you talking about? Restaurants don't have any trouble hiring people to work there, as long as they pay enough. No one minds being a servant if they're getting paid enough. Of course, it's not a terribly glamorous profession, and you can get more pay doing something higher-skill, but that usually requires much more education and training, so working as a server appeals to people without that.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand the point you're trying to make here.
It's not much about tech, it's about a collapsing society where people start to separate in isolated cohorts, sometimes even alone if missing others with similar views around.
Tech itself allow for much more interaction, it's a neutral tool alone, of course as a neutral knife you can use it to cut a steak or your neighbor throat but what's happening are civil polarization NOT due to technology but to mere social collapse.
I listen to a few podcasts where Marie la Conte is a regular. She's not anti lockdown in a conspiracy way, but she very clearly has unaddressed PTSD from the whole episode. She tries to present it as some kind of reasoned position, but I think she's just afraid to be alone with her thoughts.
Nothing, that I'm aware of, is stopping extroverts from going out and meeting other people. They just won't run across as many introverts to feel superior to. Introverts can finally get the peace and quiet they desire. Unfortunately, they still have to hear about how they should get out more, smile and "just deal". But, it's a little easier to ignore now.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 137 ms ] threadEven without the very real risk of contracting a dangerous disease that can cause long-term health problems, it's fine to prefer a slower, less frenetic phase of civilization. Science and capitalism have delivered technology and wealth, we won history, we just have to relax, take care of each other, and live happily ever after. "Where shall we have lunch?", eh?
“The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why, and Where phases. For instance, the first phase is characterized by the question 'How can we eat?' the second by the question 'Why do we eat?' and the third by the question 'Where shall we have lunch?” ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
I'm very familiar with COVID having had it it at least 4 times, and also long COVID - two instances about 6 months each
There is no disagreement from me that post viral symptoms need more attention but I don't think it's necessary to downgrade the meaning of pandemic.
> "I think if we can get well below 10,000, I think that would be a level that I think would be acceptable to us to get back to a degree of normality," Fauci said. "But again, I have to warn the listeners, these are not definitive statements — these are just estimates."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/16/dr-fauci-says-us-covid-cases...
Stay safe out there.
I think it's good that the status quo got mixed up a bit. The introverts don't have to defend themselves or feel like outsiders quite so much.
This article aligns stay-at-home-ness with "fear," "a fettered life," "hardly worth living" and says "retreating ... is an ultimately selfish choice." I believe that's a bit of a poor take. Plenty of people live rich, productive, fulfilling and engaged lives that don't especially involve a lot of interactions with other people.
This author is clearly someone whose habits were impinged by the changes brought on by the pandemic ("... naturally outgoing people – this writer included – have found it that bit harder to get their friends out of the house."), but is that the end of the world?
It almost feels like the author is eager to get back to what they are comfortable with, at the expense of (by their numbers) 1/3 of other people's lifestyles. It's almost like they are the ones afraid of this change — like they are the selfish ones.
But I don't really go for the whole us-vs-them approach at all. It has been a great (if forced) learning experience. Some people got to discover happiness they didn't know before. Other people felt the loss of something they took for granted. Perhaps we should share these lessons with each other and bring some balance and increased awareness, rather than pointing fingers and taking sides.
No one is entitled to the attention of others and the pandemic helped many of us to notice our time is finite and we should better spend it doing what we like and want. Be it being at home on a couch in slippers or otherwise.
They aren't, but at the same time the world sure is feeling more lonely. Old friends will move on, but I did notive that Meetups never really recovered in my area post pandemic (and they weren't in great shape in 2017-9 to begin with). What does one do when it feels like there's nowhere to make friends?
>helped many of us to notice our time is finite and we should better spend it doing what we like and want.
It's not necessarily volunatry for everyone. Everything's more expensive and not everyone's gotten wages that keep up with inflation. Or they got laid off and are recovering from that. It just so happens the cheapest entertainment these days is in fact in your own house.
I think there is this setup period when parents do things for their kids and the rate of things decay as we get older, more lazy and less enthusiastic.
Covid just made the middle age boring happen earlier, which people blame on their kids normally, for a generation and they didn't recover.
Pubs have raised the price of a normal beer 2x where I live since pre-covid. The pub culture, which was allready weak, is not coming back any time soon.
These days? That is pretty much true since advent of home computers in 80s/90s.
But i think we both agree entertainment got cheaper while outside life more expensive. We can grab internet connected devices for barely $100 and a single entertainment subscription (Netflix, Gamepass, Spotify) is maybe $10/month for an entire catalog. I can't even go out for lunch for $10 unless I do Costco.
The local video store would run a deal over the summers when I was a kid where you paid $30 and got three, two night rentals (new releases excluded) a week for the summer school break. Being able to grab a new game or movie every other day (since you were already there to return the previous one on time) was great.
At the same time, as someone who straddles the line between introversion and extraversion, it does feel like there's a higher activation energy for me now. I want to go out and do things, but it often seems to require more planning and more mental effort. I'm not happy with this change in myself, but there doesn't seem to be a quick way to fix it other than just putting more deliberate effort into being social and less into all the other stuff.
I think the author is projecting her own feelings onto introverts in this piece. I feel the same way as she presumably does. Lockdown changed me in ways I don't like, albeit minor ones, and it's something of a struggle to manually keep doing the social things my old self did automatically.
loosening friendships didn't help. People got busier or maybe they are fine with how the lockdown changed them. It already took some time to arrange even small hangouts, but these days it seems like I barely see my "best" friends if it's not some special occasion like a birthday or very big convention.
Now think of the pandemic lockdown. It could have caused introverts to have lost their social fitness entirely.
Just like physical fitness, some need more/less exercise to stay fit. There will also be different preferences for were that exercise is done (at or outside the office).
introverts need a little push to work the muscles that let you socialize and interact.
extroverts need a little push to work the muscles that let you sit quietly and contemplate.
hopefully society doesn't succumb to one side dominating so half the people get to be lazy while the other half is constantly exercising. ideally everybody get a mix of exercise and rest.
Except for the fact that there is no easy escape from actual slavery while you can just quit your job and find another. You might have to move, you might not make as much money but at least you're free - not a slave.
I don't know where I'm going with this except maybe that extroverts simply do not understand introverts. They read about it and think they know our issue, but they don't understand it or don't believe it's a real thing.
Yeah, this seems to underlie a lot of misunderstandings. I was reading on another recent HN thread about people's ability to form mental images[1] and it shows a similar struggle of people with different minds trying to understand each other.
The older I get, the more I get the sense that people can be quite different on the inside, yet live a lot of their lives being unaware or unbelieving of how much mental variety is out there.
[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41138338
Interestingly, her inability to empathise with your perspective despite being people orientated indicates shes probably not the sharpest. Sorry.
You can be introverted and have strong social skills. In fact, if you want to be successful, you will need strong social skills. Development is one of the few areas in which this is not the case, although the people who move up will have the strongest social skills.
Some will view it as playing politics, being manipulative, what have you. But ultimately these aren't personality traits, they're skills.
It's possible to be an extrovert with bad social skills, i.e. you're obnoxious. Or an introvert with fantastic social skills, i.e. you're the next CTO. Some, maybe even most, introverts don't know this. So they don't develop their skills and wonder why they don't succeed.
All to say, the recruiter is 100% right. How CAN you be 40 with such poor social skills? Well, you're an introvert and everyone has told you your whole life that's not for you. So you purposefully ignore those skills.
I saw this once and loved it:
”I used to think I was introverted because I really liked being alone but it turns out I just like being at peace & I am very extroverted when I’m around people who bring me peace.”
So, I’m breaking up with you. It’s not me, it’s you.
My partner (extreme introvert), and myself (somewhat an ambivert) have travelled the world for 6 years as digital nomads and rarely if ever do extroverted things. But introvert is not the same as not leaving the house.
We've done ~50 countries, quietly, patiently and without broadcasting our lives for all to see. We've learned to sail and lived on a sailboat for a while without starting a youtube channel so the world can follow us doing it.
I find the article mostly to be flawed and ridiculous. Calling introverts selfish is obnoxious. This reads like a (fake) column from "Sex and the City".
Carrie: "I found myself wondering if humans would go extinct if they didn't go to bars every night".
This one. If I ever needed to describe myself it would be between an extreme introvert or at least 'a guy in himself'.
But if you would ask the guys in the bars I frequent... I doubt introvert would be the word they say.
Can one make the same argument about introverts? Sincere question, not rhetorical.
Some people don't like dancing — maybe we should force them to dance, regardless? There's a fine line between encouraging/pushing someone to do something or try something for their own good, and letting people live their own lives in their own way.
The way you phrase your question makes me think that you conceive of introversion as a sort of health problem — like being overweight. I'm sure that's true of many people. Just look in this thread for all the overlap that people have between being depressed and being introverted / staying at home / etc. But I do just want to plant the seed in your mind that there can be introverted people who are quite happy and healthy and "living their best life," so to speak, too. They may be dancing, just with nobody looking.
The dancing analogy is a good one but while I can go a month without dancing I cannot go a month without required human interactions that put me in uncomfortable positions.
A peer post suggested that one should therefore force extroverts into uncomfortable situations too. My thought here is that I’m not trying to torture one group but not another. School forced me to be more athletic than I found enjoyable. I don’t believe it was that they were trying to make me feel bad, even though that’s exactly what running does for me. By analogy I would not ask the school athletes to gain extra weight just because I was forced to jog a mile.
I don’t have a dog in this race. I’m not even suggesting that it should be done, just sort of bringing up the thought experiment. I’m an ambivert or whatever it’s called. I could happily spend a year not dealing with people but I can also do it with unusual skill when called to do so.
> By analogy I would not ask the school athletes to gain extra weight just because I was forced to jog a mile.
This is why I don't like your analogy (no offense meant); it approximately correlates extrovert=healthy=strong and introvert=unhealthy=weak. While I don't think athletes should be forced to gain weight, I do imagine it's good for extroverts to have to sit with themselves in quietude a little more than they might otherwise, just like I imagine it's good for introverts to do the opposite. Not in every case of course, but speaking broadly.
So I guess I see it as two equally-valid approaches trying to understand each other better, more than anything.
Maybe what I'm saying is: I agree with you — it's a good idea. But it's opposite is also a good idea, and I wouldn't want it to be one-sided.
Maybe another point of fuzziness is whether "introverted" means "bad at social interactions" or "prefers to avoid social interactions" (and/or "finds social interactions draining"). I tend to see it as the latter, but maybe you mean it as the former?
I'm not talking about literally locking them up in jail, but let's say if your logic holds, we should be able to say COVID did extroverts a lot of good by making them appreciate solitude during the lockdown periods.
Definitely a war. There's no question about that.
I'm not all that familiar with Bruckner; but reading about him seems to make me feel like he's not a contemporary anymore; probably not understanding the complexity here.Not to mention the impossible understanding of per jurisdiction differences.
>here had been waves of terrorist attacks across Europe, and endless headlines about the climate emergency coming for us all.
Which has everything to do with this war.
>I think it's good that the status quo got mixed up a bit. The introverts don't have to defend themselves or feel like outsiders quite so much.
It's not so much what the introverts are doing, it's all about what the extroverts arent allowed to do anymore. Having been prohibited by law. Whereas the introverts have not been attacked YET.
>It almost feels like the author is eager to get back to what they are comfortable with, at the expense of (by their numbers) 1/3 of other people's lifestyles. It's almost like they are the ones afraid of this change — like they are the selfish ones.
Agreed, you can see the narcissism in the article.
>But I don't really go for the whole us-vs-them approach at all.
100% it's us vs them. There's no balance to be struck, the attack has been ongoing for a long time and if you surrender in this fight, it will only be getting much worse. The big difference is that
https://youngvulgarian.medium.com/hunger-b71db12b8fd7
https://youngvulgarian.medium.com/im-so-bored-4df692695330
Extroverts have enough advantages in modern society, they don’t need to try to erode ours.
With the pardon of the joke [This is what extroverts actually believe]
While sure, too much introversion is pathological, I think a lot of people in that category just doesn't go into mindless yapping
That said, this author just seems like somebody who's social skills aren't keeping up with their social ambitions. Anybody who can't find people to socialise with the way they want to needs to look at themselves to find the problem, not everybody else.
> In late 2023, campaign group More In Common polled British people on their attitudes towards pandemic life ... a third of 25 to 40-year-olds backed closing nightclubs again, 29 per cent were keen to bring back “the rule of six” and 28 per cent would have been comfortable with “only allowing people to leave their homes for essential shopping, 60 minutes of exercise, or work”.
They're mixing two polls and making it sound like these people CURRENTLY support these measures. Those numbers were from a poll taken BEFORE any COVID restrictions had been put in place at all (i.e. what SAFETY measures should we enact to slow the pandemic?): https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/31kfnjxi/mic-covid-res...
It took a lot of digging for me to find it, and I can see why they didn't want to link to it. And just in case one wants to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, they finish off with this flourish: "This was more than a year after the last legal restrictions were lifted in the UK, in line with global health policy."
So yeah, a baldfaced lie.
> Still, French philosopher Pascal Bruckner argues, “life means excess and profligacy or it ceases to be life."
Uhh... WTF??? That's precisely the mentality that has led to the ecological disaster we're entering today!
> Who will win the war?
WHAT war??? Who's fighting a war over this?
> As Bruckner puts it, “a new anthropological type is emerging: the shrivelled, hyperconnected being who no longer needs others or the outside world. All of today’s technologies encourage incarceration under the guise of openness.”
Jeez... Is this guy high?
I've stopped reading at this point.
I've found out that extrovert crowd is often also the crowd who will say things like:
- I am sure we'll figure it out later
- Well, this might be problematic in the future, but will give us such big gains in the short term (by which time they already happily moved their show to another company, leaving the quiet ones to deal with what they left behind)
- Great job, team, we managed to fix the problem/disaster/oil spill (who caused it in the first place).
- I am healthy, I can take the risk of not having a mask (and not thinking of the immunocompromised and the old)
We should, imo, treat people like that not only with unease that one reserves for charlatans, mystics and mime performers. We should actively show them that their loud, rude, obnoxious and overbearing ways deserve a bit of our scorn as well. Let's stop not only following loud fools, but even listening to them. They crave our attention, let's stop giving it to them.
> Still, French philosopher Pascal Bruckner argues, “life means excess and profligacy or it ceases to be life."
The same way cancer cells are life. They excess and proliferate.
Thing like this feel especially disingenuous
> Living a real, physical life outside the home is good because humans need friction. Convenience is alluring but it is dangerous, because getting used to it means forgetting that being alive isn’t meant to always be easy. We should run our errands in person and queue at the Post Office and eat in restaurants because it is good to remember that sometimes we have to wait around, or go to several shops because the first one didn’t have what we needed.
These are things I was able and am able to do without have to go to the office five days a week
Real nerds don't need blinds, the occasional full moon notwithstanding.
What a very extroverted perspective. "Everything was fine when the world was structured around an extroverted lifestyle. Then the pandemic hit and everything was miserable for a bit, but what's even worse is that those darn introverts aren't happy resuming their natural place in society!"
The pandemic gave us a taste of what life could be like if the world were structured around our preferred way of existing instead of yours. It turns out we liked it, and now that we've had that taste we're not comfortable resuming the old status quo where we just tag along for the ride in an extroverted world.
It boggles my mind that someone can write an article like this and not realize that what they're saying is they wish a group of people would go back to being an underclass.
Hence "Return to Office", and the failure thereof.
>New Jersey and Texas are states that stand out for spelling out exactly how often employees must work from the office to qualify for tax breaks. Before the pandemic, several New Jersey tax programs required workers to show up at least 80% of the time, and one Texas program set the threshold at 50%.
>Provisions like these were designed to ensure that the jobs boosted local revenue from income, sales and property taxes, and bolstered downtown economies.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-t...
Buildings have mortgages, surrounding businesses need to be supported, etc... Local economies dipped and some hedge fund portfolios suffered, and RTO was the only way to pump their bags.
This is all conjecture
It really was a middle ground which was quite unbalanced by the pandemic and has pretty much come back to a middle ground now (we do 3 days in office - 2 days off but no one here is stupid enough to get a typical American commute thankfully).
The fact that so many in software are extreme introverts will be a surprise to no one however.
I can tell you that up through high school I watched my fellow introverts get shamed and bullied for being quiet and awkward, but I never saw someone get bullied for being too outgoing.
I can tell you that all my life (including in this very comment section) I've had people explicitly tell me that if I just tried harder I'd learn to like social activities because humans are just wired that way, but I never heard anyone say that if a highly social person just tried harder they'd learn to like a quiet weekend at home.
I can tell you that I've only started receiving promotions and recognition at work to the extent that I've been able to feign extroversion, and my more introverted colleagues who aren't as good at faking it don't do as well.
None of that—being bullied and belittled and passed over for not being social enough—has ever felt like a middle ground to me, and there's not a lot that you could say that would persuade me to view it that way. It's easy to think of the status quo as the middle ground when it's comfortably on your side of the line, so I'll need more than your assurances to doubt my own experience.
Obviously you only get promoted when you can promote your work. No one is going to magically guess it exists.
Anyway HN is funny sometimes in its refusal to face that they are the odd ones. I fear that any person who would have a contrarian opinion as pretty much moved on from ever discussing WFH here I the same way it was a complete waste of time to argue with the anti-systemd crowd.
I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me.
There are managers, like me, who will judge your work by your work, not by how loud you are, nor by how much you drank with me at the company party. If you are a developer, I don't need to magically guess about your work, I can see it in your commits, I can review them, I can see how much, how often and how well you contribute.
As a matter of fact, no matter the amount of talk and "promoting" your work, I will still judge you ONLY based on the actual work. Maybe I am slightly biased against "talkers", but I've found out that doers' work often needs no "promotion" and it speaks for itself. As for talkers, well, they are probably still talking. Maybe it's better if they go to a big company, so they can mix up with doers who actually do work.
The less we talk about the work, and more actually doing it, the faster we can do the work, and get on with our lives, wouldn't you agree?
> I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me.
People who think the only differentiating factor between them and a lower paid worker in a different country, is not their work, but their physical presence and self-marketing tend to work for bosses who enjoy seeing their workers as a form of control. I think it's a match made in heaven.
Luckily, there are also people who are confident in the quality of their work without having to "market it", and bosses who judge a person's skill by the results. Which, I hope you agree, is also a match made in heaven.
The full school institution actually do it. Teachers tell students to stop speaking to each others for most courses during the week. Moreover some teachers explicitly talk about the joy of quietly reading books, and directly ask students to do so.
I'm fine with the way school works, especially considering the limited resources they have. Nevertheless, teachers do not often encourage extroverted skills that are useful in group work, oral presentations, etc. Exams seem to favor people that are able to stay hours long alone thinking about abstract concepts.
Every discussion about WFH seems to me as a discussion about how US office culture is garbage and not about WFH.
[1] This denomination is slightly oversimplified to avoid giving a lecture on how social welfare works in Germany.
We now have the ability to get big bucks and pay little rent for good housing, and not be stuck like sardines in traffic, and not having to listen to extroverts' incessant yapping.
Why does it make you mad? We nerds don't have the rights to happiness?
You are choosing to live far. That’s your own choice. No one has a duty to adapt the work environment to suit it.
Nope, wrong. It's not my own choice only. It's the choice of many many people, increasingly more, enough that employers have to reckon with us. Hopefully you don't feel threatened or upset about it, cause it's happening, it's gonna happen more, and no amount of corporate shoe-licking can stop it.
There are plenty of people who are okay to be stuck 3 hours in traffic, or pay an exorbitant rent just for the privilege to be working in a cubicle. Increasingly so, however, many are rethinking this arrangement and refusing to work in an environment that doesn't suit them.
So, I don't know about duty, but employers can go f*ck themselves if they can't provide what I am looking for, and I won't settle for less, both in terms of flexibility, remote options, and salary. And since there's many of us starting to think like that, some employers will start seeing reason, and provide an accommodating work environment. To stay competitive, others will have to follow or settle for sub-par workers and potentially (hopefully soon) go into oblivion.
Employers who can't or won't adapt the work environment to the demands of the workers, will perish, and those who can, will flourish. It's as simple as that.
No really, they don’t.
You are confusing what you want with what’s happening.
Oh, really, they do. And no amount of corporate boot-licking can change that. It's, and always will be, worker power.
> You are confusing what you want with what’s happening.
It's possible that you are confusing a potentially bad situation you are in, with what's happening to the rest of the worker force, many of who are empowered and hold a considerable bargaining power in the market. More and more of us have been getting a 4 day work week without the loss of pay, and the right to work remotely.
I, for example, am happily on a 4 day work week, and haven't been to the office in 3 years, and so are many of my colleagues and many other people in the industry. No amount of corp simping or RTO mandate will bring this back.
Remote work:
- https://remoteok.com/
- https://business.gov.nl/running-your-business/staff/health-a...
4 day work week:
- https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/07/81percent-of-young-people-sa...
- https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/03/opinions/32-hour-work-wee...
- https://www.npr.org/2024/02/27/1234271434/4-day-workweek-suc...
- https://fortune.com/europe/2023/09/04/scotland-4-day-work-we... - https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/feb/21/four-day-week-...
- https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/22/business/four-day-work-we...
I'd rather be locked up in a padded room alone than suffer through the office.
Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting, because I just don't care about them. I have actual friends whom I see a lot more often these days thanks to WFH, and nothing on this planet is going to convince me rotting away in an open air office is better than the alternative.
That: "Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting" doesn’t exist where I live.
I just don't care about my colleagues in a friendship context. I only interact with them because I have to professionally, but from my last 4 companies I haven't made a single lasting friendship. Because, again, I have a lot of actual friends who I'd much rather see than the random people from my office.
When Google and Facebook were getting headlines for their gourmet cafeterias and fancy game rooms and encouraging their employees to work and socialize at the office, I remember saying “I’d rather drink piss beer at a dive with my real friends than a fancy cocktail at work.
Extroverts wish they could go back to socializing and excelling at work in person, and introverts wish they can stay at home at the expense of extroverts. One or the other loses in the workplace.
This is why articles like this rarely come out and say "I need the introverts to come back to social events to meet my needs", they always try to frame it as about productivity or (as very condescendingly demonstrated here) about the mental health of the introverts themselves.
I think the balance we need to get to has to be one where extroverts are meeting each other's needs by working in teams that choose to be in person and hanging out with each other socially rather than moping online about how everything is so much less fun. You don't need to drag us along for the ride to have a good time.
What I agree with: We have built ourselves a society where it is far too easy to fall into a secluded lifestyle. That's not a problem for everyone but it does supercharge depression and anxiety. Both of these lead to you thinking that being left alone is good for you when actually looking at any research about them is not the case in the absolute majority of cases. Both get worse with lower amount of social contact and extrusion structure in your life. In the past the pressure to go outside and have some structure was much higher and thus depression and anxiety probably had more of a grave period where people around you had a chance of realizing you were getting worse and you had a chance of still pulling yourself out of it enough to get help early. Today the behavior of someone who is just really happy alone and somebody who is spiralling into depression becomes ever harder for me to tell apart.
The rest of the article to me just reads like "but I'm an extrovert and I liked it better the way it was before". Yeah, sorry not sorry? If your friends take more effort to get them to do a pub tour these days maybe they just weren't as much into pub tours as you are? Yes, the pandemic changed our society from catering mainly to extroverts to one that now makes it much easier to be not cut off entirely while taking time for yourself as an introvert. If you don't want your introvert friends to be able to have that, you're the problem in that picture.
I got the strong impression that the author wasn't always as much of an extrovert as they believe. Tons of people go out all the time and it sounds like they need to get new friends after outgrowing the old ones.
This should be one of the the prime problem of every government. It's a hard thing to solve, but is the root cause of a lot of other, more better recognised societal issues.
> We should run our errands in person and queue at the Post Office and eat in restaurants because it is good to remember that sometimes we have to wait around, or go to several shops because the first one didn’t have what we needed. Resilience is one of the most important traits a person can and should develop, and it works like a muscle. Glide effortlessly through life and, when something bad does happen, because it always will, you won’t know how to react.
Waiting around is pointless. The most resilient people find ways to avoid it and have actual hobbies and lives to live. This entire article just sounds like weird propaganda promoting a very confused perspective.
Removing everything you don't like from life is not good for you. Having everything you want is not good for you.
I don't understand this prevailing perspective in highly individualistic societies that pain is good. If you can achieve the same result without the pain why is that so bad? When does it become progress?
If I can be healthy just by taking a pill a day as opposed to dying, what's the harm? Lives are saved and that's... bad... somehow?
If I can get my nick nacks without going to the store what's the harm?
Sometimes things are too good to be true. But most of the time, things really are just good. They are just better. You do just progress forward. That's why I can write you this comment instead of writing a letter and waiting weeks for a response. Why did we give that up? Isn't waiting painful, and therefore good? I don't think so.
No, that's great! Despite what some of the comments claim, I'm not saying "suffering FTW!". I'm saying that working towards goals is literally in our DNA, and getting everything you want won't make you happy.
Your letter example is a good one. On the one hand, it's incredible that I can communicate with many people at once across the world from my desk. The benefits are obvious. What's not so obvious are the benefits of having to write letters in the old days:
When you have to spend so much effort in communication, it's worth much more to you. You take more time, think about what you're saying more, and most importantly; feel much higher rewards. Low effort, low returns.
But actively seeking or allowing things that make you feel genuinely bad? That's a bit messed up, TBH.
... and telling others to do so? Well :-/
Here I thought you were supposed to enjoy the food.
And sometimes he does, for example he can talk himself into a promotion while I silently do all the work.
But I always win in the end, because he needs me more than I need him.
I feel like if you're a 40+ year old adult with a life already made you definitely love remote work, learning new technologies being unable to be shamed at opening a youtube video next to your coworker is also nice, but I do miss the ability to meet new people naturally.
Like in The Lobster, where it's explained that the importance of sharing your life is to have somebody on hand to perform the Heimlich maneuver?
All my friends/family consider me an extrovert, my colleagues are sure i'm an introvert. I like both.
Except there are no such things. Intro/Extro are used in the ocean of questionable personality science to describe character traits. Even within some of the "worst" culprits of it, character traits are never considered to be set in stone. Contrary to what you may now think, I'm actually a fan of personality tests like DISC for professional teams. For their actual purpose, however, which is as tools which lets team members talk about their strengths and challenges in a much more open and focused way than simply sitting them down and talking about how to do team work. Especially with introvert/extrovert the whole thing becomes a little silly though, a lot of people will be more introverted one week and then more extroverted another, depending on a multitude factors in their lives. To be fair to the author, she does seem to mostly use it as a way of getting their point across, I just don't like it when people think you can ever describe people as either introverts or extroverts because it's frankly just plain bullshit.
Anyway, when I read the authors complaint about it getting harder to get friends out of their homes I looked up the author's age, and she's 33. Guess what happens in your early thirties? It gets harder to get your friends together, not because they've become introverted but because adult life takes a lot of energy and effort. The last to get children in a social circle are going to feel this the hard way. I'd argue that there are also facts like cost, which the author doesn't go into. I like going to the cinema, but where I live it'll quickly end up being $120 for a ticket and popcorn + soda. Back in 2018 it was maybe $50 and basically nothing of the experience has changed. It's not that I can't afford it, it's more a question of me being a scrooge.
One thing we have done in my friend circle is to get together "at home" more. We'll meet up to cook dinner and play board games while the children play. We still schedule Dungeon and Dragons but the frequency is like 4-8 times a year where it may have been every week before. It also has to happen during the day because evenings aren't a good time to be out with small children in the house. I have a season pass to a themepark where I go with one my friends and our eldest children, we don't actually do a lot of rides we just hang out while the children have fun. Basically post 30 social events will often need to become things where you can bring children or be out from 10-16. Which is very different from your late 20ies, but not necessarily less social.
The 2-3 years were really hard for most of us and entire societies are trying to get back to where we were before.
I blame the death of video games and media during and post Covid. The games and movie and TV industries are shells of their former selves, and are actively in decline right now. Why should I stay home to replay games from the 2010s (since nothing in 2024 is worth playing) when I can simply be part of the problem by going to the national parks or hot springs every weekend?
Plus, we all know that most people who are on the fence tend to regret introverted activities since they are “nerdy” and the opposite of glamorous. Going out to a national park is a chad move, staying home and doing introverted stuff literally keeps you a virgin (and this bears out in sociological data)
It seems to me that if one is in such a position, they may need to find new friends whose lifestyle align more with theirs instead of being condescending that they know what people should do better than them, or seeing the world through binaries that do not exist (introversion-extroversion is a normally distributed trait, not bimodal).
* Habits change. This insight is the bulk of the article. Restaurants are mentioned three times, but restaurants are a relic of class divisions from around 1900, where a patron is pampered by servants, while leaking money in all directions. So their continued existence is surprising, and maintained by habits, and the pandemic was a shakedown for habits.
* Something about resilience. Should I mention preppers? They tend to be introverts, I think, and they're all about resilience, so that confuses matters. But the general idea here is that soft pudgy cybernauts would be bewildered in an emergency that could not be dealt with by ordering deliveries. Could they go out and, like, ask for help, or patiently hunt for food in a crisis? I think the answer is actually mostly yes, and those who were conspicuously helpless would be helped, and this is really a non-issue. Go out for a pointless walk as non-specific training against divers emergencies is not great advice.
* Something about surprises (stimulation), and serendipity. This is a fair point but it's expensive, at least in terms of time, and the payoffs aren't so great. In return for losing an hour of coding, you might see a squirrel. I endorse this in moderation. Of course here I'm ignoring the main thrust which is about human interaction: as well as the squirrel, you might speak to an old lady (they constantly prowl the streets, waiting for scraps of conversation). And that's true, and adds variety, I suppose. There's a point in the article where this whole thesis of a massive crisis of shut-ins is watered down to advice to merely go out once in a while. In that light, the situation looks like less of a big deal. People still leave the house, a lot. It's only a change of emphasis, not, I think, a real problem.
Huh? Restaurants have been around since ancient times, in societies across the globe. Here's a Wikipedia link for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant#History
Modern-format restaurants have been around since the late 1700s, but there's plenty of records of people eating in food-serving establishments in ancient Greek and Roman societies. I'm sure other, even more ancient societies had similar things, which are now lost to history.
I may be off by plus or minus three decades. Maybe 1930.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand the point you're trying to make here.
Tech itself allow for much more interaction, it's a neutral tool alone, of course as a neutral knife you can use it to cut a steak or your neighbor throat but what's happening are civil polarization NOT due to technology but to mere social collapse.