The reported average of 20 days is likely skewed by a small number of long leaves and I suspect* is nowhere near typical for the median worker (it's nearly taking a day off every two weeks).
Longer leave already requires a doctor's approval so the proposal to require that for all leave is unlikely to change much other than drown doctors in more busy work.
*I can't find much for the 'median' amount of leave taken per year.
I wonder if lost productivity from sick leave days is offset by preserved productivity of all coworkers that were not infected by people that felt obliged to show up sick with flu or other communicable disease.
"As part of Merz's proposals, from January next year, workers will no longer be able to get a sick note over the phone. They must visit a doctor in person and on the first day of illness."
Can't wait to share the sbahn with feverish people or seeing a live diarrhea attack.
Doctors in Germany love to put you off work for longer than necessary. Usually the whole week. I totally see that this will result in average going up instead of down.
Yeah, I have no idea how any of these figures are derived, but... I have a hard time imagining a planet where 1.8 weeks of our Polish employees and 2.7 weeks of our Dutch employees are 'lost due to sick leave' per annum.
Days? Maybe. Weeks? On average? Nah... But, please, do continue your explanations of "see, this is why Europe can't compete"
Belgium law allows employers to enforce a sick note starting day 1.
I joined an employer that didn't require this, and it was such a breath of fresh air.
At our local doctor, the first 5 hours of his workday were comprised solely of writing notes for people to stay home.
It is a waste of (recovery) time to enforce everybody to get a note starting day one.
And describing the situation in the US on this to validate these changes is insane. Many people in the food business don't have paid sick leave, and as such lose pay when they don't come to work. And those people should absolutely have the ability to stay home without putting their finances in jeopardy. It should be a sign out front: we have paid sick leave for our people so they don't feel forced to come to work sick.
I am all for it, but if a business is one of the few offering this, I guarantee you that their new hires will tend to have significantly more health issues than at other businesses not offering this.
What pisses me off about all this is that the there is the underlying assumption that the working class is with the lazy working class. No, the problem is efficiency and incompetence at the top levels, not at the bottom. Running faster in the wrong direction won't get us any closes to the goal.
Let me make a proposal and you tell me what you think of it. I'd say the fundamental problem is career culture, the idea that mobility is valued over reliability. What I mean by that the culture of collecting good-boy points by starting projects, building PowerPoint slides and giving the appearance of getting work done, all in order to get a promotion and jump ship to the next higher position before your sloppiness catches up with you. Someone else is left holding the bag. If people had to actually own what they shit out in the long-term things would be much different. You either fall or rise with whatever projects you start. You might be able to bullshit your way through the corporate structures for a year or two, but ten years? No, if your project is to last for ten years you better put actual effort into it, not just the bare minimum to produce Potemkin slides.
Look at Stuttgart 21[1]. The reason it has been moved to 2031 (at the very least) is not because of the grunt worker being too slow. It is systemic failure at the top. Is it incompetence or malice? I don't know, you pick which option is worse. What I do know is that it cannot be the common worker on the ground who has to pay the price for it.
Disclaimer: I'm a US Citizen / Worker, white collar.
My first job had: Unlimited sick time. Take it when you need it. No doctor's note. I think you may have needed one at the week mark. Never hit at that employer. Most employers have been limited sick, with a note at a week.
I can't imagine note on day 1. That's just... nuts. The lack of trust shown there is massive. I'm making calls on stuff far larger than my sick days. If you can't trust me on sick days, how can you trust me to do my job?
Don't know about other places, but in places I have worked that required sick note on day 1, you could get one via a phone/video doctor's appointment.
You could argue that this is accountability theatre, though frankly for something like a cold - what will a doctor see face to face that they won't on the phone?
It's still a positive amount of faff but pretty tiny.
Employers still have the option to not require it on day one if they choose? It’s just that they have the option now if they feel specific employees are abusing it. Considering that you can’t fire people in Germany for taking an excessive number of sick days (even if you have good reason to believe they are faking it that doesn’t seem unreasonable)
I don’t understand Merz’s obsession with this sick leave topic, like this is going solve the economic crisis in Germany and calling people lazy will score points with voters?
Fun fact: research shows it’s probably not better or worse than before, just more rigorously reported through a new digital system since couple years (before that people needed to send paper slip notes to their employers and insurance, which some just wouldn’t do so the data was incomplete).
On the other hand, they explained that they want to go back to the rules like they were before Covid. Effectively, this means that sick leave notes can be fixed contractually between employers and employees and a lot of companies and contracts have more flexible rules as also most HR departments don’t feel like dealing with the bureaucracy.
It is very ordinary conservative neoliberal politics, isn't it? People with these politics are always complaining that people aren't working hard enough.
I'm Norwegian. I have not taken a single day of sick leave (M51). I believe that if I get sick, it is my fault and responsibility, and I should not burden the employer or public sector with that.
In 2009 i fell off a bike and hurt a knee. My fault. So I took 5 days of my vacation to stay home.
Stupid idea. Doctors are incentivised to just give out a sick note to anyone that asks. There's no downside for them if they do that, and if they don't, they get complaints from the public.
It seems likely to me that we will end up with private companies being paid by employers to evaluate your health and determine if you can go off sick. Not the nicest solution but I don't see what other option there is given the level of abuse.
Either that or companies will drastically lower the amount of paid sick leave they give, maybe to zero like in the US. I think that would be even worse.
more than 80% of workers in the US have paid sick leave without doctors notes required. varies by state. not sure where you’re getting your information…
Since the late 80s, Sweden has a system where on the first day when you're off work due to illness, you're not paid ("karensdag").
I started working just before this system was put in place, and there was so much sick leave claimed that people were seriously wondering why Swedish workplaces were so unhealthy. A year after the reform, the numbers fell precipitously.
[Weekendmodus:] First the thing seem to be, that there were a depressive pilot, some years ago, who made an "extended-suicide". The people across Germany were told, "It was, cos the company hasn't known, that a doctor issued a 'sick note' (In Terms of: When he was unable to work - he should't fly a plane with more than 100 people on board.')."
There was a need for a soulution, so my bet was on the workers side: "If the doctors send the "sick-note" directly to the employer (via "Fax" or email), you'll save a Stamp at minimum, or doesn't have to visit your workplace, ill." Everybody who went sick one time, knows that it is not easy every time, to visit someone when you're ill, not?
That is one of the Mistakes somebody would take granted, by those what the media seem to hide for -you know "generating hype and clicks about".
And for the 2nd, (verry distracting by now): If doctors now have to inform employers within day one, that'll fit it perfect.
So no "hysteria", no "hype". People seem to forget fast -in not my words: "Just a school class who died by that extended suicide" but in memory of that... by remembering it...
If you need such laws to be enforced in order to keep your workforce on leash... you are either a very uninspiring employer or you are the current german chancellor. Good bye german economy with such an uninspiring leadership.
Of course sick leave has increased in Germany, but the main reason is reporting. Since 2022 in Germany there is a new electronic sick note and doctors report every certificate directly to insurers. Before that short illnesses very often went uncounted.
I find it quite concerning and clickbaity that this reason is also included but comes relative late in the article:
One major reason for the rise in sick leave is better reporting, IGES wrote in its report published in January.
People on HN don't understand what Germany's like these days. I know people who have been off work for over a year still getting paid quite handsomely, even though they're perfectly fit to work. There's been a lady in Berlin recently who has been on sick leave for two years but still tried to run for some office and was defended for it by the usual suspects. It's really out of control. Doctors are handing out sick notes like candy. Germany has developed a really unhealthy relationship to work ethics after years of being coddled with benefits and victim ideology.
If this is actually enforced it'll probably change healthcare in Germany quite a lot.
Imagine that people infected with something from Caliciviridae, as parents tend to be every or every other year when the kids are small, has to enter medical facilities to get sick leave from work. Highly contagious, shits and/or vomiting, not uncommonly together with fever.
As a medical practitioner you'll quickly find a way to work around this and make yourself able to hand out notes without bringing the infected remotely close to your actual care facilities.
37 comments
[ 1.6 ms ] story [ 58.8 ms ] threadLonger leave already requires a doctor's approval so the proposal to require that for all leave is unlikely to change much other than drown doctors in more busy work.
*I can't find much for the 'median' amount of leave taken per year.
Can't wait to share the sbahn with feverish people or seeing a live diarrhea attack.
Days? Maybe. Weeks? On average? Nah... But, please, do continue your explanations of "see, this is why Europe can't compete"
I am not; the same amount of work gets done. Probably more because I’m not half-sick on the job for 3 days instead.
I joined an employer that didn't require this, and it was such a breath of fresh air.
At our local doctor, the first 5 hours of his workday were comprised solely of writing notes for people to stay home.
It is a waste of (recovery) time to enforce everybody to get a note starting day one.
And describing the situation in the US on this to validate these changes is insane. Many people in the food business don't have paid sick leave, and as such lose pay when they don't come to work. And those people should absolutely have the ability to stay home without putting their finances in jeopardy. It should be a sign out front: we have paid sick leave for our people so they don't feel forced to come to work sick.
It’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue.
Let me make a proposal and you tell me what you think of it. I'd say the fundamental problem is career culture, the idea that mobility is valued over reliability. What I mean by that the culture of collecting good-boy points by starting projects, building PowerPoint slides and giving the appearance of getting work done, all in order to get a promotion and jump ship to the next higher position before your sloppiness catches up with you. Someone else is left holding the bag. If people had to actually own what they shit out in the long-term things would be much different. You either fall or rise with whatever projects you start. You might be able to bullshit your way through the corporate structures for a year or two, but ten years? No, if your project is to last for ten years you better put actual effort into it, not just the bare minimum to produce Potemkin slides.
Look at Stuttgart 21[1]. The reason it has been moved to 2031 (at the very least) is not because of the grunt worker being too slow. It is systemic failure at the top. Is it incompetence or malice? I don't know, you pick which option is worse. What I do know is that it cannot be the common worker on the ground who has to pay the price for it.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21
My first job had: Unlimited sick time. Take it when you need it. No doctor's note. I think you may have needed one at the week mark. Never hit at that employer. Most employers have been limited sick, with a note at a week.
I can't imagine note on day 1. That's just... nuts. The lack of trust shown there is massive. I'm making calls on stuff far larger than my sick days. If you can't trust me on sick days, how can you trust me to do my job?
You could argue that this is accountability theatre, though frankly for something like a cold - what will a doctor see face to face that they won't on the phone?
It's still a positive amount of faff but pretty tiny.
Fun fact: research shows it’s probably not better or worse than before, just more rigorously reported through a new digital system since couple years (before that people needed to send paper slip notes to their employers and insurance, which some just wouldn’t do so the data was incomplete).
On the other hand, they explained that they want to go back to the rules like they were before Covid. Effectively, this means that sick leave notes can be fixed contractually between employers and employees and a lot of companies and contracts have more flexible rules as also most HR departments don’t feel like dealing with the bureaucracy.
In 2009 i fell off a bike and hurt a knee. My fault. So I took 5 days of my vacation to stay home.
It seems likely to me that we will end up with private companies being paid by employers to evaluate your health and determine if you can go off sick. Not the nicest solution but I don't see what other option there is given the level of abuse.
Either that or companies will drastically lower the amount of paid sick leave they give, maybe to zero like in the US. I think that would be even worse.
I started working just before this system was put in place, and there was so much sick leave claimed that people were seriously wondering why Swedish workplaces were so unhealthy. A year after the reform, the numbers fell precipitously.
There was a need for a soulution, so my bet was on the workers side: "If the doctors send the "sick-note" directly to the employer (via "Fax" or email), you'll save a Stamp at minimum, or doesn't have to visit your workplace, ill." Everybody who went sick one time, knows that it is not easy every time, to visit someone when you're ill, not?
That is one of the Mistakes somebody would take granted, by those what the media seem to hide for -you know "generating hype and clicks about".
And for the 2nd, (verry distracting by now): If doctors now have to inform employers within day one, that'll fit it perfect.
So no "hysteria", no "hype". People seem to forget fast -in not my words: "Just a school class who died by that extended suicide" but in memory of that... by remembering it...
regards (-:
I find it quite concerning and clickbaity that this reason is also included but comes relative late in the article:
One major reason for the rise in sick leave is better reporting, IGES wrote in its report published in January.
https://x.com/posta_octavian/status/2072672993126334709?s=20
Imagine that people infected with something from Caliciviridae, as parents tend to be every or every other year when the kids are small, has to enter medical facilities to get sick leave from work. Highly contagious, shits and/or vomiting, not uncommonly together with fever.
As a medical practitioner you'll quickly find a way to work around this and make yourself able to hand out notes without bringing the infected remotely close to your actual care facilities.