From the article, it's for "jobs in sectors like agriculture and construction". Would be interesting to learn about how this kind of work is managed in hotter climates.
For office work, a lot of European countries (especially the UK) haven't invested in AC as much as the rest of the world because they haven't needed to. This is especially apparent in housing, where working from home is becoming difficult in these higher temperatures.
Days could be brutally hot ( easily over 100 F ), but there was little humidity. My transportation was a motorcycle ( with additional heat radiating off the engine ), so mid often feel a little uncomfortable, but it was definitely livable.
Interestingly, homeowners often used evaporative ‘swamp coolers’ instead of AC. A big benefit of low humidity.
It's already somewhat implemented in Florida. OSHA requires employers to protect employees from extreme heat. It doesn't explicitly require air conditioning, but air conditioning is standard practice in Florida so not providing it would open up employers to an OSHA complaint.
For outdoor work, protection from extreme heat generally implies shade, hydration, frequent breaks, et cetera.
Cos today in my pokey town, my house is 30°C, my local library 28°C the gym is at least 25°C and the outside 31°C at a dew point of 15°C. Its not Florida but its the UK and there’s no relief.
That's an interesting way to investigate how much public policy surrounding schools is actually focused on student education. I think you'd find that there would be significant fear around crime in an environment that already has a heightened risk of riots. For younger students the debate would shift to burden of additional childcare.
Not sure about the rioting part, maybe in some places on earth, but I'd say the burden of additional childcare is obviously an issue. So is just missing those hours of education.
Which is why perhaps classes should not be suspended in most and less extreme cases, but rather adjusted. And good teachers are already doing that. (And long-term, AC has to be a thing.)
Since when one learns at school? You go there, listen some guys and then go back home and there the real learning happens: when you sit down, alone, facing a blank paper or a problem you need to solve based on the notes you took while at school.
> Under the proposals, employers within the European Union would be legally required to suspend work if temperatures exceeded 30C
That's... uh... the entire summer in most of southern Europe?
I agree with the general intention, but the thresholds probably need to take into account humidity as well (i.e. be based on wet bulb temperatures), and I don't really see how one can apply a one-size-fits-all policy all the way from Greece to Scandinavia...
southern europeans have had to deal with the northern cultural view that we're lazy, and modern work culture imported from those countries has virtually ended siesta. well, now it's hot over there too. we can be nice and tell them "see?" or we can be mean and have them live with the consequences of their moral positions. Right now I'm leaning a bit to the later, but it might just be the heat getting to me :P
I’d lean towards writing an economics masters thesis that demonstrate that climate change will shrink GDP -A% per +/-B degrees/humidity variation from temperate, demonstrate this effect in past versus present data for Greece, modify the basic productivity formula underlying all of economics to include “divergence from temperate conditions”, and then finally show that when run against different world regions parallels, each region with positive (hot/humid) variances from temperate is commonly associated with the “lazy” stereotypes imposed on workers in high-divergence regions by residents of low-divergence regions. But sadly I have to get a job first, so maybe in a couple years.
Except for a large part of Europe, the relative humidity is quite high. So, they're suffering more than most. I say this as someone who once lived in a desert and is well accustomed to 40-50 C summers.
Given that the article specifically calls out a construction union and an agricultural union as two of the unions making this request, I don't think that's a realistic solution to the problem.
Vapor compression refrigeration has been mass produced for a century. Add a reversing valve and you have a heat pump. Europe better get started on installs, it’s not going to cool down.
I have a warmtepomp it's great, but it is cooling the house, not the air a only gets it to 5 day degrees down. It's mandatory for new houses in Amsterdam I think and there seem to plans to retrofit old buildings. It helps that we also produce it, but the usual types tried to sabotage that too last time.
I have a heat pump based water heater installed in the garage. One side benefit is the garage got cooled down. It used to be that the garage got very hot during hot days. Now it’s cool.
China ramps up production & shipping to Europe [1] and a quick glance at Google Trends for Germany, UK and France AC install searches are up 5x from last year, and last year was already double the previous years.
>The union said employers should take steps to cool down workplaces once temperatures exceed 24C, with workers able to stop working if temperatures reach 30C, or 27C for those doing manual labour or working outdoors.
Geneva already has a version of this. You have to stop outside work at 13h00 unless it's necessary, in which case you have to take 45min breaks for every 15 minutes of work. However the threshold isn't 27C but rather like 32C (from what I understand)
is it really an alternative? i'd rather do a 4 hour night shift without breaks than working 8 hours like this in the heat. what am i supposed to do with a 45 minute break? if i am a bricklayer or example, i'd still be stuck on a badly cooled construction site. seems totally not worth it to me. even worse considering that normally breaks are not paid.
if we assume that this is the middle of the day, so i work 2 hours normally, then 4 hours with 45 minute breaks and then another 2 hours normally, i might as well just work 2.5hours normally, take a 3 hour break and then work another 2.5 hours normally.
so no, really, i don't see any benefit in that arrangement.
breaks are not work time. you are entitled to breaks, but unless they are quick bathroom breaks they don't count as work, and in places where you have to stamp in to start work you actually have to stamp out for each break. at least that's the law in germany. since germany is one of the countries with stronger employee protection globally, i can hardly imagine any country offering more than this.
> Belgium: 29°C for light physical workload, 26°C for a moderately heavy physical workload, 22°C at heavy physical workload and 18°C at very heavy physical workload
> Hungary: 31°C for sedentary and light physical work, 29°C for moderately physical work and 27°C for heavy physical work
> Latvia: Maximum working temperature for indoor work of 28°C
> Montenegro: Maximum working temperature for outdoor work of 36°C
> Slovenia: The air temperature in work areas must not exceed 28 °C
(although I don't see any obvious similarities between the countries that do and don't have such protections, but based on that list it does seem that former Yugoslav and Soviet states are overrepresented)
Anything above 86 F? That's the whole summer. I see this as a negotiating position. They'll probably agree on something closer to 33 C (~90F). They have to. If they do nothing people will literally die. Climate change has consequences.
I think this whole heat wave crisis has been shocking to the rest of the world to see that apparently Europeans refuse to install AC even in new-build homes and it is causing enormous numbers of deaths. What is the reason for this? Is it just because it's expensive and energy costs are so high?
It seems like a basic safety requirement that they are refusing to acknowledge and are now apparently just refusing to go to work completely when it gets hot outside.
I live at 51°N and apartments in my building that face the south largely have AC. I've seen a lot of AC company vans in my neighborhood lately, so I guess many people pulled that trigger this year.
Personally I went to the mountains as it's a 2h drive and naturally cool, moist air beats AC every time.
The people who refuse to install it and make up the majority of deaths are simply old - older than the average life expectancy in the US - and thus typically pinching pennies - especially that for the vast majority of their lives it wasn't necessary.
My father had AC installed a several years ago due to his health and it was probably working overtime this season.
My mother lives in a commie block that is well insulated and surrounded by green spaces, so the heatwave didn't affect her nearly as much.
My college friend discovered his heat pump is actually reversible, so now instead of heated, they have cooled floors. Unfortunately the device wasn't smart enough to on one hand use the heat to heat up tap water and the cold to cool the surroundings, but I guess you can't have everything.
>I think this whole heat wave crisis has been shocking to the rest of the world to see that apparently Europeans refuse to install AC even in new-build homes and it is causing enormous numbers of deaths. What is the reason for this?
Because the Northern Europe didn't historically need it (average summer warm weather was like 75 degrees or less), so it was mostly seen as environmentally unfriendly and more of a stupid US indulgence, like being able-bodied but still going to the supermarket on a motorized wheelchair.
The South that did need it, has already had it for the most part.
I can only speak for western Europe. New-builds prioritize energy efficiency, because energy is expensive and, depending on the region, involves burning fossil fuels. There also tax incentives. The lucky new builds have reversible floor heating attached to a heat pump. That can keep the temperature around 26 celsius. Still on the warmer side but not unbearable. Anyway, AC is (or at least was) seen as a last resort, hardly worth it for the ten or so actually hot days we get a year. Obviously, that counter has been steadily going up, so the mindset is changing.
First, weather services would need to report it. None of the ones I've seen do. Most don't even report feels-like temperature, they just report plain temperature... in my city (often windy and humid) it's all but useless, you can need a jacket with 21ºC one day and be comfortable without it with 16ºC the next.
OP's submission seems very UK / TUC centric, also doesn't include something many here are bringing up, that they indeed plan to base it on the wet bulb temperature.
> they indeed plan to base it on the wet bulb temperature
WBGT != wet bulb : There's some nasty confusing terms here - and the Grauniad has also got the link wrong - their reporting has not just gotten more biased it has gotten much worse.
I find dry bulb temperature along with humidity are better when I travel, because they are more predictable based on historical data and you get to know what matters and make choices according to context. And more helpful in cool climates where damp cool days are nasty.
Oh, noes! Europoors become even less competitive! If only they had not outlawed airco, they would be rich, rich I say!
But, ehhhhhm, yeah... What would you expect unions to do? Push their workers just a bit harder so they get through summer-no-matter-what? Free ice, and not just in their drinks, for everyone all around? Or just recognize that siesta was invented for, like, a reason and go with the deeply-historical flow?
Personally, I think "if you cannot provide a working environment where the ambient temperature is below 30C (86 in Freedom Units), maybe the work should be postponed, at no cost to the worker" is not an unreasonable collective-bargaining position, but let the downvoting commence...
Living in the south of France outside tourist havens (I had one when renting near St-Tropez), the current situation is that serious AC is considered something for the rich.
Not because AC itself is particularly expensive, but because almost no rental apartment has it because installing AC during the construction is basically forbidden due to green laws (RT 2012) so you need to own.
And owning something decent not in the damn city itself is expensive as fuck these days.
RT2012 is the reason my uncle installed a reversible heatpump to replace the cheap electric radiator in the house he renovated, so i'm not sure it's really forbidden. But yes, RT2012 make building new houses more expensive, and you don't want to add a AC unit to that. Especially since most areas expressly forbid visible heatpump from the streets, so you have the added cost of having to hide them (In France, we basically have a big HoA in each city, it's called PLU and the mayor get to choose the color scheme and maximum height of your house, the maximum height of your trees and if you get to have AC or not).
I heard about a man that was finishing his work working in a greenhouse. He felt ill and dizzy and tried to go home. Sadly the car was parked in the sun. He entered in the car, fainted and died by heat stroke.
89 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 36.9 ms ] threadMost remotely modern interior spaces in Florida are going to be air conditioned so this is already not a problem in Florida.
For office work, a lot of European countries (especially the UK) haven't invested in AC as much as the rest of the world because they haven't needed to. This is especially apparent in housing, where working from home is becoming difficult in these higher temperatures.
Days could be brutally hot ( easily over 100 F ), but there was little humidity. My transportation was a motorcycle ( with additional heat radiating off the engine ), so mid often feel a little uncomfortable, but it was definitely livable.
Interestingly, homeowners often used evaporative ‘swamp coolers’ instead of AC. A big benefit of low humidity.
Natural adaptation.
For outdoor work, protection from extreme heat generally implies shade, hydration, frequent breaks, et cetera.
Cos today in my pokey town, my house is 30°C, my local library 28°C the gym is at least 25°C and the outside 31°C at a dew point of 15°C. Its not Florida but its the UK and there’s no relief.
Sweating in >30°C high-CO2 spaces doesn't improve student's learning.
Which is why perhaps classes should not be suspended in most and less extreme cases, but rather adjusted. And good teachers are already doing that. (And long-term, AC has to be a thing.)
That's... uh... the entire summer in most of southern Europe?
I agree with the general intention, but the thresholds probably need to take into account humidity as well (i.e. be based on wet bulb temperatures), and I don't really see how one can apply a one-size-fits-all policy all the way from Greece to Scandinavia...
China ramps up production & shipping to Europe [1] and a quick glance at Google Trends for Germany, UK and France AC install searches are up 5x from last year, and last year was already double the previous years.
1: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202607/1364856.shtml
Geneva already has a version of this. You have to stop outside work at 13h00 unless it's necessary, in which case you have to take 45min breaks for every 15 minutes of work. However the threshold isn't 27C but rather like 32C (from what I understand)
i guess you meant the reverse?
It's 45 min break.
if we assume that this is the middle of the day, so i work 2 hours normally, then 4 hours with 45 minute breaks and then another 2 hours normally, i might as well just work 2.5hours normally, take a 3 hour break and then work another 2.5 hours normally.
so no, really, i don't see any benefit in that arrangement.
> Belgium: 29°C for light physical workload, 26°C for a moderately heavy physical workload, 22°C at heavy physical workload and 18°C at very heavy physical workload > Hungary: 31°C for sedentary and light physical work, 29°C for moderately physical work and 27°C for heavy physical work > Latvia: Maximum working temperature for indoor work of 28°C > Montenegro: Maximum working temperature for outdoor work of 36°C > Slovenia: The air temperature in work areas must not exceed 28 °C
(although I don't see any obvious similarities between the countries that do and don't have such protections, but based on that list it does seem that former Yugoslav and Soviet states are overrepresented)
It seems like a basic safety requirement that they are refusing to acknowledge and are now apparently just refusing to go to work completely when it gets hot outside.
I live at 51°N and apartments in my building that face the south largely have AC. I've seen a lot of AC company vans in my neighborhood lately, so I guess many people pulled that trigger this year.
Personally I went to the mountains as it's a 2h drive and naturally cool, moist air beats AC every time.
The people who refuse to install it and make up the majority of deaths are simply old - older than the average life expectancy in the US - and thus typically pinching pennies - especially that for the vast majority of their lives it wasn't necessary.
My father had AC installed a several years ago due to his health and it was probably working overtime this season.
My mother lives in a commie block that is well insulated and surrounded by green spaces, so the heatwave didn't affect her nearly as much.
My college friend discovered his heat pump is actually reversible, so now instead of heated, they have cooled floors. Unfortunately the device wasn't smart enough to on one hand use the heat to heat up tap water and the cold to cool the surroundings, but I guess you can't have everything.
Workers are demanding to stay inside (with their AC) instead of going outside.
Because the Northern Europe didn't historically need it (average summer warm weather was like 75 degrees or less), so it was mostly seen as environmentally unfriendly and more of a stupid US indulgence, like being able-bodied but still going to the supermarket on a motorized wheelchair.
The South that did need it, has already had it for the most part.
So we have climate change with concomitant heat waves caused by our energy consumption, and the obvious solution for this is … to consume more energy?
A dry bulb temperature of 30C contains little information regarding safety. Humans are wet and we cool ourselves with evaporation.
OP's submission seems very UK / TUC centric, also doesn't include something many here are bringing up, that they indeed plan to base it on the wet bulb temperature.
WBGT != wet bulb : There's some nasty confusing terms here - and the Grauniad has also got the link wrong - their reporting has not just gotten more biased it has gotten much worse.
WetBulbGlobeTemp = 0.7WetBulbTemp + 0.2DryTemp + 0.1*BlackPaintTemp
In the shade with still air the WBGT approaches the actual temperature as humidity rises.
If sunny and humid it can be above the actual temperature.
For low-humidity moving air the WBGT might be noticeably cooler on a hot day.
At least that's the best summary I can give from the quick skim I looked at.
It's a crappy confusing 50s model supposed to approximate how warm it feels - needs a local meter to test - see image: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_globe_temperature
I find dry bulb temperature along with humidity are better when I travel, because they are more predictable based on historical data and you get to know what matters and make choices according to context. And more helpful in cool climates where damp cool days are nasty.
But, ehhhhhm, yeah... What would you expect unions to do? Push their workers just a bit harder so they get through summer-no-matter-what? Free ice, and not just in their drinks, for everyone all around? Or just recognize that siesta was invented for, like, a reason and go with the deeply-historical flow?
Personally, I think "if you cannot provide a working environment where the ambient temperature is below 30C (86 in Freedom Units), maybe the work should be postponed, at no cost to the worker" is not an unreasonable collective-bargaining position, but let the downvoting commence...
Not because AC itself is particularly expensive, but because almost no rental apartment has it because installing AC during the construction is basically forbidden due to green laws (RT 2012) so you need to own.
And owning something decent not in the damn city itself is expensive as fuck these days.
Because my cynical mind tells me that the only thing it will result in is 1. Extremely low productivity 2. Hiring outside of unions.
Union will push for “union only jobs” and that’s going to result in even less productivity OR robotization of agriculture and construction.