Not sure, but I struggle with skepticism for anyone who blocks archive.today, which cloudflare does, along with nextdns and others. Being blocked by such a large... apologies in advance for 'lack of better word' vernacular, cartel, is a near death sentence.
Yes, this is something almost all other anti-bot/fraud prevention solutions already does, and there are already bypasses developed simulating human mouse movement.
Cool product launch, though it feels a little weird to me that Cloudflare sells agentic products alongside this new service that seems designed to block agentic usage of the web?
I expect there's much more going on than just mouse path detection but I can imagine that this is already tricky for touchscreens and for people using non-traditional mouse inputs (the thinkpad nub comes to mind - but it would also be bad optics to accidentally block people using accessibility mouse tools as bot users, though then this becomes a loophole for agentic browsing!)
In general though I think this is almost definitely a good thing to reduce agentic bot abuse & spam.
It’s less weird if you think there’s a difference between good bots and bad bots. They can provide services for good bots to use while helping people keep out the bad ones.
If a bot is simulating mouse movement but doing it badly then that’s a strong signal of shenanigans. A good bot will obey robots.txt and do nothing to hide that it’s a bot.
Arguments based on incentives can prove anything. We could just as easily say they have incentives to provide tools to both sides and let them fight it out.
It would be like Gmail automatically whitelisting email from other Gmail accounts. Why should Google do that? Their customers are mostly strangers to each other.
> It would be like Gmail automatically whitelisting email from other Gmail accounts or blacklisting email from competitors. Why should Google do that? Their customers are mostly strangers to each other and they want spam filters that work well.
Crazy to post this when Google basically does do that with Gmail addresses. They may shove it into your “other” folder but they do absolutely nothing to stop free Gmail accounts from spamming and phishing. Gmail spam is the biggest threat by volume I’ve seen in years of managing email security for clients
> Cool product launch, though it feels a little weird to me that Cloudflare sells agentic products alongside this new service that seems designed to block agentic usage of the web?
Feels a little bit like the mob selling "protection" to shop keepers.
What prevents bots/agents from just adding "jitter" to their movements that mimics how humans move their cursor?
I know there are other signals being used but this one in particular seems like it wouldn't be hard to beat with a small amount of sophistication from the bot.
Beating this would require a large amount of sophistication, not a small amount.
Basic machine learning clustering will expose bots mouse+keyboard+touch behavior and discriminate them from humans.
It will also likely discriminate against anyone with a disability and therefore using affordances like eye tracking. This shouldn’t be too much of a problem in the USA because no one is enforcing the ADA at the moment outside of California / Illinois / NY.
But I’m curious to hear from ‘eastdakota how they plan to guarantee that users with disabilities won’t be affected by these kinds of behavioral analysis. Cloudflare has such a massive footprint that it’s absolutely critical for them to err on the safe side of filtering, assuming they desire to be ethical.
The immoral thing for cloudflare to do would be to say “we just provide a ‘bot likeliness score’ and it’s up to each website to decide what threshold they need”. And then wave their hands and say “we’re not the ones blocking users with disabilities…the websites are the ones setting their thresholds too strictly”.
When you reach Cloudflare’s size … you own all the 2nd and 3rd order effects of your decisions.
We used to say the same sorts of things about LLM prose, music, and image generation. Now just a few years later it can be very difficult to know for sure if something is made by AI or a human. There are still tells, but they are much more subtle and harder to spot, and models are still improving. Mimicing human mouse movement won't be any more of a challenge.
Humans are very inefficient when it comes to navigating the web, but also take actions pretty fast when completing forms. You don't really need any kind of advanced ML to see bots spend two seconds to read a full page, then spend 10 seconds just to click two buttons a human would click together in under 2 seconds. The amount of sophistication in bot detection peaks at about 'if user searches 20 queries in less than 5 minutes on our search engine or uses incognito, CAPTCHA them'.
Because of this, perfectly mimicking humans is not a good goal for a bot (as it is the case for AI in music), because they would become very inefficient, at least latency wise (throughput could be engineered around by scraping many unrelated webpages in parallel).
> It is super difficult to mimic all of these signals in a way that would cluster the same as typical humans.
Not really, beat ML with ML. I won't disclose how to do it, because who knows who might read this, but you can easily do it with a model trained for that purpose.
Sure - it's just hard for rando's to get tons and tons of real human interaction data to run a GAN against. "How to do the training" isn't the barrier for this, and not worth keeping a secret.
Nothing. But you are already at a disadvantage because Cloudflare has seen far more real jitter data and you are up against that. It might work in the short term but after a while you start showing pretty obvious patterns. There's also a great variety of jitter data on specific websites or layouts that would be very easy to catch someone artificially emulating jitter
For any one of their product there is a good opportunity to build an open source alternative or something like it! Can be hard to work around they have the benefit of being able to have negative unit economics on lots of infra products... But people succesfully built tons of alternatives to google analytics and similar.
Open source for bot protection specifically would be difficult. If I as a bot developer can see the tests you run I can just modify my bot to pass them (either trivially or by brute force).
Gonna zag here. If you take a step back cloudflare is clearing the path for pay for crawl. I think it's a noble and ambitious goal.
While I can understand why you would be alarmed, I can point to almost two decades of lamenting on this forum about how we need better ways of rewarding content creators than ads. Well, this is it.
Is it a better way though? The problem with ads has always been their abusive nature. From unrestrained pop ups and clickjacking in the 90s to today's pervasive surveillance and profiling.
Cloudflare turnstile is a pop up. This product is pervasive surveillance. It having a cf logo doesn't change that or ameliorate the many many abuses that two decades have shown are part and parcel.
What's incredible is that you have businesses paying CloudFlare to stop their content being ingested by AIs (OpenAI, Anthropic, Self-operated scrapers).
And at the same time, they're paying SEO experts to make that same content easier to be ingested by systems (Google and other Search Engines) which use it for their own AI offerings.
Are you going to be able to make your online content available to Google Search but unavailable for Google Gemini?
It's really telling that they're starting to block anything automated ever that hasn't gone through their ID verification process. It's like literally every company that exists in the world is taking advantage of the dystopia at once
no, they're giving tools to their customers who can choose freely to block or not block bots. Without those tools, the people who run sites and offer content are just flying blind. I struggle to see how this is a bad thing in any way
My issue is with them defaulting every site to blocking any bot that hasn't gone through their verification process. It's not about the existence of the setting, but rather the behavior to enforce it by default.
As a real user who uses an Ultimate Hacking Keyboard with the mouse layer, this frustrates me immensely. Yes I'm a corner case, but this is likely to make certain website not work for me because my lines are perfectly straight and my arcs zig-zag much like a bot might.
Considering the keyboard/mouse layer feels like an advancement to me, this feels like tech that will lock in the "old" way of doing things.
I really detest how adversarial the web is getting. I'm not a cloudflare hater but please, please consider people like me when rolling out stuff that affects millions or maybe even hundreds of millions or billions of people.
I'm guessing it's going to lock the non-sighted//keyboard only users out of the anonymous Internet. I'm guessing if you log in and give up your anonymity they'll consider you not a bot.
just like how smartphone developers, engineers locked people with no smartphone.Some of the users that can no longer get services are really old people, disabled. In some well developed places on earth, you can't even check in flights without a smartphone, it's not even possible to travel for them.
I mean CF already forces 5 minutes of motorbike identification on anyone not in a whitelisted western country, so a small percentage of blind people is unlikely to worry them.
Yeah, you just have spinners that keep refreshing the page and spinning when you're using Firefox or a mobile device that's neither on Android nor iOS.
I have been noticing a lot of Cloudflare false positives where it keeps spinning on my sessions never actually redirecting me to the underlying page. If they keep just vibe coding and releasing a new solution every day, I am afraid it will be reflected in their services quality.
Cloudflare has a lot of enterprise customers. Selling bot check to companies wanting to protect their content & also taking a cut out of payments for access by bots could be a good earner for them.
So now instead of having the slow-axx Cloudflare turnstile slowing down your requests, you get surprised with a "You are a BOT!!!" while you are conducting your business on a website.
I already quickly close any website that I do not need for business purposes when it shows me the Cloudflare spinner. Now I might have to start considering competitors who do not implement this shit.
Turnstile already does the "You are a BOT!!!" thing btw, if it thinks you're a bot, which is quite rare as it seems much more permissive than systems like reCAPTCHA.
One interesting aspect is of course that the movement from the same user can be different depending on what type of mouse they use. I use a mouse at work on my PC, touchpad on my private laptop, and thinkpad nipple on work laptop. Three different profiles for one user.
Obviously different movements from a AI, but if we come to the day where mouse movement fingerprinting becomes another gatekeeper, there could be some interesting outliers.
I wonder how it'll handle those of us who try and use the mouse as infrequently as possible. I imagine the cognitive delay part would be largely telling. But it'll be interesting to see if I start getting blocked because I use vimium.
There is nothing stopping a bot from moving their cursor like a human. This is basically just putting up a door with zero walls and telling people to stay out of your house.
All of these things are completely abusable/bypass-able and just annoying for actual humans who trigger flags.
It's a bleak world in terms of bots flooding the web, but out of all possible solutions, this seems to be preferable over invasive and identifying fingerprinting that everyone wants to roll out. Here's hoping that mouse movements aren't sufficiently unique as to be fingerprintable too.
I implemented all of this in hCaptcha 6 years ago, not just to distinguish bot from human but also to recognize the keyboard/mouse behavior of the same person signing up for many accounts or testing multiple credit cards. This kind of abuse detection was a part of Cloudflare when they switched to hCaptcha in 2020 and I had thought they already implemented all this themselves four years ago when they transitioned away from hCaptcha in 2022.
I dislike bots as much as anyone else... when weird inquiries come through my company's lead form, it costs some time and attention to sort them.
But what makes Cloudflare so confident that automation always equates to "fraud and abuse?" If I send my agent to go retrieve some information, do they consider that fraud?
If I block various ad trackers does that trigger their "bot detection" incorrectly? Do I have any recourse? Or is Cloudflare appointing themselves judge, jury and executioner?
And let's not forget this little chestnut:
> 4. Privacy by design. Precursor was designed to collect signals that help to distinguish human patterns from automated and abusive patterns.
Ahh, so to "protect" against bots they're standing up a whole new regime of user surveillance and session-level monitoring. And they definitely won't be selling that, they promise. Got it.
This crap should be illegal. In the real world, I can authorize others to act on my behalf. The same should be true with software agents.
Yawn. Train a domain-specific model on human inputs and then run inference against that. At integration, you change what, one line of code with another? You at best raise the expense to bot, but in today's world, this isn't much compute expense. You can do it on 10-year-old Xenon processors, the same ones used by companies promoted on LowEndBox.
Skids already fall into the trap of using open source automation like playwright-extra-stealth.
101 comments
[ 0.23 ms ] story [ 44.9 ms ] threadI wonder if the folks at Cursor feel called out, or just glad that they're big enough to be perceived to be a threat.
Not a fan
Explanation direct from the CEO of CloudFlare: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702
I expect this will be effective for maybe a day.
I expect there's much more going on than just mouse path detection but I can imagine that this is already tricky for touchscreens and for people using non-traditional mouse inputs (the thinkpad nub comes to mind - but it would also be bad optics to accidentally block people using accessibility mouse tools as bot users, though then this becomes a loophole for agentic browsing!)
In general though I think this is almost definitely a good thing to reduce agentic bot abuse & spam.
If a bot is simulating mouse movement but doing it badly then that’s a strong signal of shenanigans. A good bot will obey robots.txt and do nothing to hide that it’s a bot.
Paying Cloudflare's tolls => good bot.
It would be like Gmail automatically whitelisting email from other Gmail accounts. Why should Google do that? Their customers are mostly strangers to each other.
Crazy to post this when Google basically does do that with Gmail addresses. They may shove it into your “other” folder but they do absolutely nothing to stop free Gmail accounts from spamming and phishing. Gmail spam is the biggest threat by volume I’ve seen in years of managing email security for clients
Feels a little bit like the mob selling "protection" to shop keepers.
I know there are other signals being used but this one in particular seems like it wouldn't be hard to beat with a small amount of sophistication from the bot.
Basic machine learning clustering will expose bots mouse+keyboard+touch behavior and discriminate them from humans.
It will also likely discriminate against anyone with a disability and therefore using affordances like eye tracking. This shouldn’t be too much of a problem in the USA because no one is enforcing the ADA at the moment outside of California / Illinois / NY.
But I’m curious to hear from ‘eastdakota how they plan to guarantee that users with disabilities won’t be affected by these kinds of behavioral analysis. Cloudflare has such a massive footprint that it’s absolutely critical for them to err on the safe side of filtering, assuming they desire to be ethical.
The immoral thing for cloudflare to do would be to say “we just provide a ‘bot likeliness score’ and it’s up to each website to decide what threshold they need”. And then wave their hands and say “we’re not the ones blocking users with disabilities…the websites are the ones setting their thresholds too strictly”.
When you reach Cloudflare’s size … you own all the 2nd and 3rd order effects of your decisions.
Because of this, perfectly mimicking humans is not a good goal for a bot (as it is the case for AI in music), because they would become very inefficient, at least latency wise (throughput could be engineered around by scraping many unrelated webpages in parallel).
Not really, beat ML with ML. I won't disclose how to do it, because who knows who might read this, but you can easily do it with a model trained for that purpose.
Doesn’t seem healthy for the internet as a whole
I genuinely don't understand these generic complaint comments.
Are you complaining that they offer too much? Or do you believe nobody is offering similar services?
where bots run rampant ?
trust me as an operator - I'm grateful Cloudflare exists.
While I can understand why you would be alarmed, I can point to almost two decades of lamenting on this forum about how we need better ways of rewarding content creators than ads. Well, this is it.
Cloudflare turnstile is a pop up. This product is pervasive surveillance. It having a cf logo doesn't change that or ameliorate the many many abuses that two decades have shown are part and parcel.
And at the same time, they're paying SEO experts to make that same content easier to be ingested by systems (Google and other Search Engines) which use it for their own AI offerings.
Are you going to be able to make your online content available to Google Search but unavailable for Google Gemini?
Considering the keyboard/mouse layer feels like an advancement to me, this feels like tech that will lock in the "old" way of doing things.
I really detest how adversarial the web is getting. I'm not a cloudflare hater but please, please consider people like me when rolling out stuff that affects millions or maybe even hundreds of millions or billions of people.
Yeah so this mouse movement astrology is going to completely lock non-sighted/keyboard only users out of large swaths of the Internet isn't it.
Yet all people are ok with it
Potato potato.
I already quickly close any website that I do not need for business purposes when it shows me the Cloudflare spinner. Now I might have to start considering competitors who do not implement this shit.
Obviously different movements from a AI, but if we come to the day where mouse movement fingerprinting becomes another gatekeeper, there could be some interesting outliers.
All of these things are completely abusable/bypass-able and just annoying for actual humans who trigger flags.
But what makes Cloudflare so confident that automation always equates to "fraud and abuse?" If I send my agent to go retrieve some information, do they consider that fraud?
If I block various ad trackers does that trigger their "bot detection" incorrectly? Do I have any recourse? Or is Cloudflare appointing themselves judge, jury and executioner?
And let's not forget this little chestnut: > 4. Privacy by design. Precursor was designed to collect signals that help to distinguish human patterns from automated and abusive patterns.
Ahh, so to "protect" against bots they're standing up a whole new regime of user surveillance and session-level monitoring. And they definitely won't be selling that, they promise. Got it.
This crap should be illegal. In the real world, I can authorize others to act on my behalf. The same should be true with software agents.
Skids already fall into the trap of using open source automation like playwright-extra-stealth.