I have worked in environments where as the day wore on, my performance plummeted.
After a lot of investigation, I suspect that air quality, lighting, ergonomics can have adverse effects. Only recently I read an article that said that in a room with several persons and poor ventilation the CO2 levels reach levels which are known to impair brain and other neurological functions.
That is, I suspect that your depression is the symptom of a bad environment and not the root cause of your problems.
This is irresponsible on your part. OP has been diagnosed by professionals and is being treated and clearly sees the difference. While high CO2 levels make a measurable difference in some tasks and its effects can be felt in crowded spaces, it seems like you're taking your pet peeve and dismissing the struggle that the OP is going through. Please try to have more sympathy.
I understand it can be difficult or even frightening to think about problems that don't have a trivially described cause, effect and solution like your proposal, but it would be a good idea to ask questions, even as simply as asking if that OP has noticed an effect, before trivializing their struggles this way
> > That is, I suspect that your depression is the symptom of a bad environment and not the root cause of your problems.
Yeah that's BS.
When you were a kid in class in winter you had 20 kids + the teacher in the same room submerged by co2 , plus you were in a literal prison taken from the comfort of your bed in the dead of the night, had to ask permission to use the restroom and you could be denied , once you managed to get to the restroom you'd be submerged by even more co2 because of all the cigarette smoking going on from the older guys. And I am not even considering bullying as a factor that for the least lucky or strong could be added to the above list.
Still no depression in sight .
The problem comes from within, life was never meant to be taken this seriously, all the improvements and technological prowness that we tout vs. Subsaharan Africa come with the cost of literal self torture.
We have evolved in a scenario in which if you had reason to believe to have >90% chance of being alive 1 week from now (something like 168 hours into the future) then you could literally go out of your cave celebrating with your dick swinging left and right .
We have now reached a point where people would be unhappy with 168 years because 'oh no what happens next OMG I am so scared!'
Mental health and thinking about the future are 2 parallel lines going to infinity , they can never be reconciled, thinking about the future is much more toxic than CO2, lead, sniffing glue, meth, heroin, fentanyl and all the other so called harmful substances which as toxic as they might be they don't make you want to off yourself
As mentioned by a sibling comment: this is an insensitive take.
It takes a lot of courage to write down one’s struggles for all the world to see. Your analysis denies the OP their self-reflection, and instead reduces it to a thing you happened to find in your own life.
You're right, but framed generally like this, it's easy to skip this advice.
OP/reader, more specifically, examine that post. It is an avalanche of negative self-talk. It's a person telling themeselves and the world that they cannot do something. You can take a perfectly healthy person, turn on this cycle, and watch it destroy their lives.
Depression has many causes, but its roots that make it stick are cycles like these. Antidepressants are a parachute, but you have to rebuild the engine and an important part of that is to learn to reframe events and identify and challenge your negative assumptions.
I can sympathize with what you're going through OP. I have similar struggles myself (primarily with severe anxiety) and wouldn't wish most of what I have had to go through on my worst enemy.
I do have one comment though:
You mention stability in your goals, and how you want to find stability. What is stability to you? I've struggled for years with trying to find stability but it often just leads me back to thinking that there really is no such thing. You just never know what is going to happen in life. Finding a job and having stable employment are hard, and will likely only get harder as we age. Relationships have ups and downs, and their downs can be incredibly challenging to navigate. Most of us (at least in Europe) don't have the luxury of building wealth to escape the 9-5 grind. We simply need to work (and stay employable) until we have the ability to retire. I don't know how things work in your country, but here in Sweden I can't even start to collect my state pension until I turn 69. I need to find a way to remain employable until I am 69, or amass enough wealth to not need to worry about paying my bills if I don't have stable employment.
I could go on and on but honestly I think stability is a myth. Life is inherently unstable. But we human beings are also incredibly resiliant.
Take care of yourself. I wish you all the best OP.
The Buddhists call that seeking ground, and they consider it to be a real source of suffering. Their take is that the reality is fundamentally groundlessness, and the more you can relax into that (easier said than done), the less you'll suffer when the inevitable shit hits the fan.
As someone who has had a metric ton of shit hit his fan, this is a hard pill to swallow, but very effective medicine and has helped me tremendously.
In modern terms, you could say it's good to embrace a growth/flexibility mindset and work on the things that help you to build and restore resilience.
I'm doing alright as far as my career goes, not great, but okay. Which is disappointing because me and everyone around thought I'd do great, because I/they thought I was a great software developer, since I'm smart and I know my tech and my programming.
Unfortunately working as a software developer is a different story entirely, I found many times that my chase for good simple code takes time, and sometimes I overthink things and I don't test properly, and I'm also slow, and don't communicate the problem with my team because I don't work consistent hours, because my brain cannot do consistency.
Turns out I have ADHD. Possibly autism too. So I understand your feelings of I just need to be better, because it works for other right? Even tho you know that fundamentally you are right, but it works for others so why not you? I don't have a solution. But sometimes you can't just "be better" and "more consistent", I also wish I could, but maybe it's not possible.
Maybe the only way is to find where we are good and do more of that. If you have struggle finishing things hope on calls with people that are good at finishing things. Talk with them. Be proactive and be open. I also don't do this as often as I should, because I'm also ashamed.
I don't know exactly what the point was to this, but so you know others also fail, even tho they deemed smart and skilled by others.
If you recognize yourself in that post, then what you recognize is called negative self talk. The only advice I have for you is to learn to recognize how this pattern makes things worse and to learn (or be taught) how to stop that pattern. The blog post is a textbook self-flagellation and I have no doubt author returns to it to feel worse about themselves in some twisted attempt to motivate positive change.
Hah. I feel very much seen by both of these comments, much more than I’m confident to admit.
Something I have been struggling with all my life is deciding whether I am flawed in some way, or the other party/the environment is - because my immediate reaction is always to feel responsible and inadequate, and it takes a lot of energy of confidently feeling superior or right about something. Like, is it a pattern, or am I reflecting to avoid being ignorant?
It's both. All humans and all environments are flawed. You can change yourself and control your reactions to your environment if you want to. You can probably also either improve your environment to some extent, or move to a better environment (not always possible for everyone but HN users usually have that option).
There's no need to feel superior: that's not particularly helpful and will tend to give you a distorted perception of reality. Most likely you're just average.
You'll never have an objective measure of good/bad. You only have your feelings on the matter.
One way is to define what you view as good (or better: define what you view as "better") and just be that as much as you can. Because "trying to actually be better" puts you above the median person immediately, IMHO
Yeah I didn’t read it that way at all. I think that addressing mental health issues requires some frankness with yourself first and foremost. I know some people object to identifying with labels such as ADHD, autism, depressive disorder, etc., but I do not know if that is what the parent intended.
In the last day I've spent a couple hours in a negativity loop. My wife doesn't know it, but she snapped me out of it and it's nice to see your comment as another reminder to avoid going down that path
Brother(i think), I feel you. Some days the rumination is awful, and it's good you have someone that reminds you of the good stuff.
My kids are like that - total blank slate joy machines at this age. And I assure you - fundamental optimism is ok everyone can improve their outlook and/or lot in life.
We need to remind ourselves that it's okay to feel emotions across the spectrum of humanity. There is nothing wrong in feeling bad or having regret or feeling shame; just as there is nothing wrong with feeling glee or hatred or sadness. They are normal emotions, but what matters is how we respond to these emotions.
IDK why but one of the more damaging things about American culture is the constantly championing of individualism over community or belonging. Having one person you can talk to or spend quality time with is often enough and we should be encouraging more people to find their tribe.
My wife goes through negativity loops too, it hurts to see someone I love think so little of themselves but we're working through it together. That's life, we need to embrace it.
Division of labour is THE big advantage of working with other people. So yes, focus on the bits you are good at and hand the other stuff to people who are good at that part. It's usually worth it.
You just magically found this out when the Mental Health Diagnosis Fairy visited you one night? You spent thousands of dollars for a neuropsych evaluation where the result was 40% reality, 40% chance, and 20% how the evaluator was feeling that day? You self-diagnosed by reading Reddit threads? You somehow magically found the one psychiatrist who is willing to talk about ADHD without immediately assuming you're just trying to score some Ritalin to sell on the street? You got diagnosed by Dr. ChatGPT? What the actual fuck are you talking about? Everybody has ADHD, nobody has ADHD, who fucking knows? It's not possible that you actually know this.
I empathize with your frustration; It can certainly be difficult to find adequate support, especially if you’re in the US as I am. That said, the interventions that exist can be effective and I genuinely hope you’re able to gain access to a support system that can help you
Well, you see, all things are empty of independent origination.
(You "have ADHD" if a psychiatrist was willing to say you have it, gave you medication, and it improved your life quality in multiple spheres and not just "I can do more work".)
No, I actually like this reply, because it's true in its essentials. You can find someone to tell you what you want to hear, but it's not going to pay the rent. And actual help needs to come from within, and no one has a magic wand or a one-weird-trick to actually help you. In the meantime, you have to pay the rent. Work sucks to varying degrees, and we all need coping mechanisms. Waving a flag with some acronym is not, at the end of the day, going to pay the rent. Find coping mechanisms.
I'm going to take your comment in good faith and assume you are just frustrated with the system.
I don't live in the US, my experience comes from the Netherlands.
I was having hard time dealling with the Covid period, and was having lots of anxiety regarding my work and proeutivy so I reached out to my GP. Talked and had sessions with 2 different psycologists over a year, both suggested to ask a referral to an ADHD specific clinic.
Since I did not want medication I never followed through. Fast forward a few years I reached out to a GP because I was thinking the ADHD "assesment" was correct. Followed up with another GP, they were super kind took my ADHD concerns seriously specially since I wanted to avoid medication first. Got referred to a psicology practice that followed me for 8 weeks, after they they also gave insurance a note that it was possible ADHD and followed me up with a different referal to a different clinic more specialized again.
So no I don't have an ADHD "certificate" to hang on the wall, but I have talked with enough professionals that think that might be the case.
So you know you are smart and you know your programming but you can't show it because you just happen to have a now popular, talked about, and referenced condition that inhibits you from your own known greatness. OK.
Most of y’all need to buck up. If day to day engineering tasks are so challenging for you maybe the anxiety and depression you’re feeling is your system telling you that you are in misalignment.
Why are you an engineer if you are struggling to complete the basic tasks? Are you meant to be doing what you are doing?
It's true a steel inner strength is required in day to day engineering. It's hard, and it lacks positive reinformcement almost always. When you hear something it is bad.
But let's define "buck up" and see the other side of the elephant. That blog post is a textbook example of negative self talk. You can have a world that looks down on you and spit back at it and do your best work, but if you look down on yourself you _will not_ bootstrap your way out, because you learn to believe you cannot.
That is depression, and depression is reinforced if not caused by that self-talk. Addressing the self-talk and stopping the flagellation will allow that steel inner strength to build up. Medication is a parachute but the wings and engine need to be rebuilt using self confidence, and that's a long road of:
* reframing failures as lessons
* honesty with self about your own role in your depression
* careful build-up of support
* learning to find the important and good in each memory, vs the deprecating and painful
Too much therapy speak here. You can't think your way out of depression. Only by taking action can you change things. Fix your body first. Then learn to socialize. Then get good at something (ideally something you can make money from). Think in terms of systems not goals. As a man your only way out is action (I can't speak on the female side of things).
Right, it's very easy to dismiss the general therapy talk. I'm not a fan myself.
Exercise, cultivating positive fear responses, self-challenge are all important.
What you're pinning as "therapy talk" is just that last one - you need to think critically about how you approach life problems, not just accept the most negative interpretation of events and your inner monologue.
I think any stoic would agree with that statement.
If there’s one thing I would like to add is that engineering is a much of a mindset than knowledge. I have friends in software development and they do not enjoy the practice at all. Everything is just chores to them.
I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways.
I wish it was this easy. But mental health is as complex and multifaceted as our brain is. There can be more than one reason why a once happy engineer is now struggling to complete basic tasks, and they are often hard to find and explain or to relate to simple explanations like these (which is why more and more people are turning to therapy for answers).
You raise good questions, but thousands more could be asked: Are you taking care of your foundations? Sleeping enough? Eating nutritious food? Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself? Is your work environment healthy? What things aren't healthy that you've normalised? Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? And so on.
My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these, so "bucking up" can be seen as either great advice or irresponsible and insensitive, and it doesn't necessarely apply to "most of y'all". So maybe you need to buck up, but also don't be frustrated if you don't. Maybe the solution is elsewhere.
I think mental health is way over blown in terms of complexity.
>My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these
I'd argue these are all binary questions and pretty easy to answer:
>Eating nutritious food? : Yes/No
>Sleeping enough?: Yes/No
>Are you taking care of your foundations? Yes/No based on above plus Yes/No to "Sufficient Exercise?"
>Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself?: Yes/No (Stop playing videogames, reduce phone use, limit drugs and alcohol)
>Is your work environment healthy?: Yes/No (If 'No' how can you leave it)
> Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? : Yes/No
An easy happiness formula is:
1. Eat right: Maintain a healthy diet to keep your physical energy stable.
2. Exercise: Keep active every day to release mood-boosting chemicals.
3. Get enough sleep: Prioritize rest to reset your mental state.
4. Imagine an incredible future: Daydream about grand possibilities, even if you don't fully believe them at first.
5. Work toward a flexible schedule: Having control over your time is one of the highest drivers of happiness.
6. Do things you can steadily improve at: Progress and mastery trigger the chemicals in your body that make you happy.
7. Help others: Once you’ve helped yourself first, giving back provides profound psychological benefits.
8. Reduce daily decisions to routine: Remove mental clutter and decision fatigue by establishing steady habits
While I do agree with the majority of your post and it's very close to what I've been trying to do on my own, I wouldn't call it easy. It's a simple formula and I think the majority of people would benefit from trying to attempt the formula or a version of it before seeking professional help.
When you're in a negative mental state, none of these things are easy. Eating right, for example, assumes you know what right is, you can afford it, you have access to it and you have the energy to get it. All of those points have their own unique "prerequisites".
A bad mental state can keep you from completing those prerequisites.
A bad mental state can prevent the formula from working even if strictly followed.
There's still value in doing them because it keeps things from being worse. If there's something worse than being depressed, it's being depressed and hungry, or depressed and scared, or depressed and tired.
A bad mental state also messes with your perception. Good becomes bad, bad becomes worse, and worse becomes worst. Keeping a daily track of things ensures that you'll always have an objective source of truth. So that even if things feel hopeless, you can look back and pinpoint the few good moments.
I've been steadily working on my version of the formula for ~4y and the majority of the time I feel content but there are days where its still a challenge to do the right thing and days where I have to force myself to even get out of bed. But I can always look back and see that things aren't that bad. They just feel that way right now.
It's a learnable skill. You're saying that you shouldn't even try to acquire it.
I came into adulthood with insane levels of anxiety, stress (self-induced), depression (and eventually mania) - due to my childhood home life.
Making decisions early on in my career as an engineer was difficult for me and caused a lot of stress. I thought I was a complete moron (well, I am) and all my decisions were going to be completely wrong. So I chewed through them continually, which was unhealthy.
Not an issue anymore. You learn the skills you need to do the job. I would never tell someone that they shouldn't even try, just because they got a bad hand dealt to them at some point in their life. Fuck it, try it. If it's so bad that you completely buckle, then maybe it indeed isn't for you. However, you might be able to bear the storm for a bit and eventually turn into a better engineer for it.
I’ve studied Electronic Engineering (and interacted with the Civil Engineering classes). And the main difference is that physical laws are inflexible and failure cases may result in deaths, maiming, and material damages. Software constraints are more forgiving in most cases. But that does not means a total lack of discipline has no negative impact. Au contraire, an engineering mindset greatly improves the chances of successfully delivering a project.
I think non-engineering mindsets in any sort of engineering/engineering adjacent role is the cause of a lot of friction.
>Very, very, very little of real-world software dev is anything close to "engineering".
I mean same principles apply in general.
> If there’s one thing I would like to add is that engineering is a much of a mindset than knowledge.
Amen.
> I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways.
The official definition of engineering is: "Engineering is the application of mathematics and scientific principles to design, build, and optimize structures, machines, systems, and processes." Software development falls into this definition. If there isn't something in this definition you like then you're in the wrong job. I find joy in optimizing processes. No matter what scale, a well designed and optimized system brings me joy.
I worked on projects with EEs and MEs for years. Were they not doing "engineering" because they built custom PCBs and the devices they go inside, rather than drawing the wiring plans or HVAC plans for a construction project? Most of them didn't even have a PE.
You are not much different from any other animal at some level. With enough conditioning you will believe that you have no agency over your own life, and you’ll just sit there and take the shocks hoping it ends soon. Or worse, you’ll lose perspective and imagine the only solution to your current (likely temporary) circumstance is to (definitely very permanently) end your own life.
You need to communicate better. One of the most important steps is to know your audience. This means you need to understand where they are coming from. Without this understanding, your words are unlikely to be correct and useful. To communicate clearly is to think clearly.
If you can’t follow these basics, why are you even writing comments? Are you meant to be using the internet?
I definitely understand where your response comes from. You cannot work with people that keep screwing up the work you're doing. It costs the company money, it frustrates colleagues, and you end up just wasting people's time.
The thing is that I have now learned that I cannot do it. To play devil's advocate, I might just be a lazy bum. I still think it's good to be aware that you can walk away from a position that you know you cannot do.
Buckling up will not help me here. I've been upbuckling for two years now, and my buckles keep going down.
I would love to read an update about your experience with antidepressants, as it's a path I'm thinking about more and more with the (losing) battle I've been fighting against my own long term depression.
I really resonated with your eventual realization that while others have their own battles, they are very rarely similar to this. I guess I knew it was unusual, but I took way too long to realize just how weird it was to feel soul-crushingly miserable for no identifiable reason, even when things are going well, even when I'm around friends I like and they're having fun.
I'm not OP but just wanted to add my own experience with anti-depressants as someone who has battled mild depression and extreme anxiety for years. Ultimately in my case it turned out that I needed to try several different antidepressants that my doctor prescribed until I found one that worked to aid in decreasing my depression and anxiety symptoms with pretty much no side effects. I tried several which did not work for me or had a lot of side effects. Some antidepressants that helped my friends and family in their struggles did not help me. So definitely ask your doctor if they'd be willing to work with you to try and find a medication that works well for you with minimal side effects if they recommend that you take such medications.
We know very little about how psychological drugs work in general. Having to try multiple things to find one that works well for you is par for the course
"while others have their own battles, they are very rarely similar to this" - meh, I don't think that's true. Being human is hard, and in some circumstances can be very fucking hard. If you've had a challenging time in your youth, that makes it exponentially harder.
That's most people. They just keep it inside, assuming everyone else is doing better than they are.
I agree mental health is important and have struggled with similar issues... but it is hard to read prose in fixed-width typefaces. Please consider a more readable serif variable-width typeface.
I used to co-supervise a PhD student who suffered from severe anxiety, she was good but her anxiety stood in her way almost all of the time. You could see that she used up 3/4 of her brain just on being anxious, there wasn't much power left to do the actual work to any standard. It's a horrible disease. (and yeah, she was on medication and diagnosed).
I didn't really think about your third bulletpoint, that does make sense.
I think it's also good to be aware when you're lying to yourself. An easy example is how people talk about their gym membership.
"Oh, I would go, but I am so busy with X", or "I am already doing Y, so I don't really need to go". It's always a non-reason, while the true reason is that they just do not see a reason to go.
I don't get why this happens with work, though. I didn't love my job, but I definitely loved the colleagues, and I felt like I didn't do that bad of a job (ofcourse I see this differently now, I was doing a bad job).
In REBT (rational emotive behavioral therapy; a cognitive behavioral therapy focused on rational introspection) the excessive "need" language is identified with "musturbation": https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fh0087779
In Buddhism, excessive "need" language is identified with excessive clinging to some aspect of life that behaves contrary to your cravings or your understanding. (Upadana = clinging, tanha = craving, together with its positive and negative forms bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha, "things must be so," "things must not be so.") The usual cure prescribed is to cure the ignorance that causes these illusions of reality, and/or detach from the clinging that causes your ignorance to inspire suffering (dukkha).
REBT is inspired by a number of philosophies, Buddhism and otherwise. If this more analytical approach to self-help appeals to you any, I might encourage you to check it out.
I've been there (without the LLMs and antidepressants since therapy is healthier). The 1 year is quite optimistic from my perspective. Good luck though. Prioritize yourself.
The different usages of I or i though ... please fix the LLM type checking it.
I thought I was depressed but then I got divorced and realized my depression was situational from being in an awful relationship. Consider causes like this as well, it is hard to see when you're inside it.
I'm at this point fully convinced that 90%+ of people with depression have either a metabolic disfunction, gut issues, heavy metal poisoning or some other occult infection or a problem.
So it's not really mental, it's literally a disease of the physical body. The brains are then affected as a side effect.
You can look up low carb, carnivore, heavy metal elimination groups etc... and you will find thousands of real testimonials.
The problem is that many if not most of these are hard if not impossible to diagnose since the modern medical science is lacking completely at this plus the combination of arrogant doctors not taking these people seriously and gaslighting them makes it 10 times worse, so experimentation is needed and then a commitment for a year or two.
This sounds a lot like the shame and frustration people with ADD feel when untreated.
I know several people who suffer with ADD, who are extremely intelligent and talented, and felt the exact same emotions before they were diagnosed. Those emotions were _much_ alleviated once treated, mostly through pharmacological means. Anecdotal but seems a strong pattern to me.
You're not the only one commenting this. I do have to say it's quite re-assuring to know that this is a possibility.
For the people you know that have ADD, was medication sufficient? Did they still end up taking therapy for their neurodivergence? I wonder how long it takes before I can be a functional programmer again. I know it'll take a while.
This could be due to ADD, I am still getting tested. Granted, that's a diagnosis, not a root cause.
No, it’s a diagnosis of the root cause - in fact, it is plausibly the root cause of everything else described in the post. Inability to complete work, procrastination/distraction by focusing on nearby tasks, the pervasive sense that you struggle with things that other people do not, even the depression (untreated ADD causing repeated failures, repeated failures causing depression). To understand why it really could be the root cause, you can read up on “executive dysfunction”, which is what ADD really is.
The treatment for ADD is one of two medications, methylphenidate or dexamphetamine. You can try other things in addition to these, but not instead of these, and you should try both - there really is just no substitute.
(In some places, bupropion can be prescribed as an antidepressant. It has effects that also help with executive dysfunction, so you may find it to be more effective than serotonin-based antidepressants.)
ADHD is unlikely to be the root cause as there is unlikely to be any single root cause. Treating ADHD will reduce or eliminate a component of this, but will not address the issues entirely.
realized this one about myself earlier this year, it really helped to boil it down to something besides “I am just inherently bad at things.” that attitude worked as a dumb single kid, but it was harming my adult life and relationships.
therapy helped me get there. I have been on bupropion for about a year, and recently started on methylphenidate. it might not be the right one for me, or maybe too small of a dosage. I’m taking it slow and being deliberate with the drugs.
working with a personal trainer to get in shape and lose weight, as well as quitting my fully vested tech job to fuck off and be a cook for a while has also done wonders for me here. it’s cliche, but you really can’t replace fitness with anything else, and that took me 35 years to internalize.
yeah! it's pretty cool when I start doing something that used to be difficult and now it's just... not. weird how long your old form sticks with you in your head like that.
yeah, at a local pizza/taproom place. they share tips with cooks, works out to ~$35/hr. I'm not expecting it to replace a tech salary, but it helps offset the savings burn (which was specifically set aside for this).
> quitting my fully vested tech job to fuck off and be a cook for a while
I am also fantasizing about this and am only holding off from doing it because of the social stigma (what idiot would quit a well paid full-time job). My biggest issue with the software industry is the feverish shiny-new-thing syndrome that AI is causing (and my current company is all in on this, with "Hyper-Velocity Engineering" panels). Maybe I don't want to move at light speed and would rather stop and smell the roses.
pretty much every day I feel that tickling of “what the hell did I just do?”
but I don’t care. I put 15 years into my tech career. I am good at building software, and I will not let this ridiculous “resume gap” problem stop me from taking a break for my mental health. any tech employer that wouldn’t want me because of it is a place I wouldn’t want to work anyway.
also, to be honest, I’m writing more code now than I ever did in the last year of my tech job… working on a full CMS and custom website combo for my friends bar, such that I can copy that template over for future projects (want to help local businesses escape the bullshit machine). also building a cool web development desktop app. and more! I’m having a great time
> Maybe I don't want to move at light speed and would rather stop and smell the roses.
This really struck a chord with me. I've spent the last 15+ years building up a craftperson's skillset (IMO) akin to a carpenter's or mechanic's. Yet, people still seem surprised when I tell them I'm not willing to run a slop cannon and excrete software which is _good enough_. I actually enjoy the nuts and bolts of writing and debugging software and using AI feels like cheating (if only myself). I'm really not sure where I go from here. I wish I had a work situation like yours to complain about but I know I'd have hit the eject button the minute someone started mandating anything about my workflow, so it's kind of moot.
> Yet, people still seem surprised when I tell them I'm not willing to run a slop cannon and excrete software which is _good enough_.
Cue the usual propaganda: "Oh but that's just real life," "it's the nature of our industry," "I'll agree things aren't perfect, but {nothing must change}," "I understand, but the true problem lies with {mistake we'll gladly keep making}," "it's bad, but at least we're not {killing babies}."
It's become almost automatic to associate pondering with perfectionism, and perfectionism with flaw.
> The treatment for ADD is one of two medications, methylphenidate or dexamphetamine. You can try other things in addition to these, but not instead of these, and you should try both - there really is just no substitute.
No, not quite - there's a variety of different ADHD medications and I'd argue there's more popular ones like Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine). Non-stimulants like Strattera or Intuniv absolutely can and are prescribed on their own, which are really useful for people that respond poorly to stimulants.
Perhaps you meant to say there's two main classes of stimulants (amphetamines, methylphenidates) that are worth investigating and shouldn't be skipped over?
Vyvanse is dexamphetamine. I suppose you can say “amphetamines” instead, I imagine the subtleties of the terminology differ quite a bit in different places.
Strattera can help (I mentioned bupropion, another SDNRI). Of course if you try stimulants and don’t respond well, it’s totally fine to just use e.g. Strattera. What I’m advocating against is e.g. “try Strattera first, if it seems to help, don’t bother with stimulants”. (Some places, cultures, or medical systems do have surprisingly strong biases against stimulants!)
To be specific, Vyvanse/Elvanse is lisdextroamphetamine.
But IMO it's not really that incorrect to say there are two main types of stimulants.
You rarely (at least never where I'm from) get instant release methylphenidate. Always some delay mechanism. Shorter - Ritalin, longer - Concerta.
And the lizine particle attached to dextroamphetamine acts as a such delayer, but isn't active by itself -- being only an amino acid. So it's still kind of amphetamine just as Concerta is methylphenidate.
Intuniv gets a bad reputation because the patient has to be titrated up to the final dose and it takes a long time to see the full effects. It's the opposite pattern of stimulants where the patient feels great (unnaturally so, due to stimulant euphoria at the start) and the effects wane over time.
The internet is really, really bad at pushing everyone toward ADHD diagnoses and then pushing them further toward stimulants. There's a darker part of some of the communities then pushes people to keep pressuring their doctors for higher and higher doses and also discourages people from trying therapy.
Outside of the internet I know several people who did the rounds with medications and ended up on the non-stimulant options and preferred them. This is an unthinkable conclusion if your primary source of information is Reddit, X, or TikTok ADHD influencers, but it's pretty common in the real world.
Stimulants have a habit of being enjoyable at first (meaning people like taking them, beyond their attention effects) and then the effects wane over the years, to the point that there are studies showing that the effects of stimulants taken long term in children are minimal to unmeasurable after several years. This is confusing to anyone who has been taking them for years and notices a difference on days when they don't take them, but that's explainable by the fact that it takes months (or longer) for the brain to adapt to not having them in the body. For some reason this same effect is not debated as much when you talk about people who drink 5 cups of coffee per day but then crash hard when they miss their coffee, but it gets protested and argued a lot when we talk about literal amphetamines.
Anyway, please don't listen too much to internet ADHD forums. They're just so, so bad these days with bad advice and poor psychology/therapy takes. You really need to engage with professionals with an open mind and not be single minded about acquiring and taking stimulants if you want to address this problem as a whole. The way the internet treats ADHD as a simple "low dopamine" state (which is wrong on many levels) and then points to stimulants as a "raise your dopamine" drug to neatly cancel it out sounds nice, but it's wrong on so many levels.
>Stimulants have a habit of being enjoyable at first ... and then the effects wane over the years
The standard approach to addressing this is thru the use of "drug holidays," regular short periods during which one doesn't take their medication with the intention of abating the growth of tolerance. I much prefer going this route since stimulants have proven to be such a solid solution. The other standard approach is, of course, upping dosage, which could be seen as only delaying the problem.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote, though. The internet is indeed a terrible place to get any advice on these topics.
If you feel you're getting tolerance to amphetamines, the first thing to try is magnesium glycinate/threonate supplements, and then hydration and diet and sleep.
> Intuniv gets a bad reputation because the patient has to be titrated up to the final dose and it takes a long time to see the full effects.
I went up, but then backed down because even 2mg was seriously affecting my sleep quality. I'm feeling much better at 1mg.
nb I think if I wasn't employed than I'd be best off with just this, but employment is best with stimulants. Unfortunately stimulants have side effects.
Atomoxetine's effect size is surprisingly similar to methylphenidate, though in my experience it treats different aspects of ADHD than stimulants. Some doctors (mine) are open to combining it with a long-acting stimulant, which actually can be a really nice setup, especially if you're sensitive to stimulants.
Hope you get it worked out OP. I will say, if it's ADHD, it's 100% worth trying to get the best treatment you can.
> Atomoxetine's effect size is surprisingly similar to methylphenidate, though in my experience it treats different aspects of ADHD than stimulants. Some doctors (mine) are open to combining it with a long-acting stimulant, which actually can be a really nice setup, especially if you're sensitive to stimulants.
I tried this for several years and only afterwards realized it was bad for me - one because of personality changes, two because of high blood pressure.
It will give you a lot of stamina and ability to continue on the life path you're on, but I got metaphorical tunnel vision and basically wasn't able to do anything after the stimulant crash around dinnertime.
> No, it’s a diagnosis of the root cause - in fact, it is plausibly the root cause of everything else described in the post.
Yep. I was diagnosed with ASD and ADHD about a 1.5 years ago... My whole life came into focus. Everything that didn't make sense suddenly started to make sense. What I thought were 15 different issues I was dealing with were really all just symptoms of the one (or two in my case). The internal tension I've always felt was also explained by the competing desires of ASD and ADHD.
Knowing this hasn't really "fixed" any of that, but it has given me an explanation, language to use to explain it, and permission to stop searching for what's wrong with me... which I've been doing for 20 years. It's been nice to have a break.
Finding a label for personal problems typically results in a honeymoon of self-acceptance and relief. The honeymoon usually ends and the problems remain, but now there are possible paths forward.
The other thing it does is give a path towards resolution (or at least mitigation) for some issues. Wife was diagnosed adhd, and got a shrug wrt an autism diagnosis. We looked into interventions that specifically tend to work for ADHD, and she’s now thriving. She also tends to respond well to some of the interventions for autistic people that we’ve found useful for our AuDHD daughter, so we’ve taken on the policy of “labels be damned, if it works it works”. The labels sure as shit help with getting started finding your bearings though
There are some traps along this path, too. A number of younger people I've worked with (in the double digits now) have gotten ADHD and/or ASD diagnoses and then become overjoyed that "everything makes sense now". But the diagnoses are only useful as tools for knowing what to work on.
The trap is trying to externalize the diagnoses as a get out of jail free card that can be used to justify avoiding hard changes and difficult work. The more difficult version of this is when someone tries to externalize the responsibilities of their diagnosis on others. I've seen a couple situations where someone got an ADHD diagnosis and then took it straight to their employers expecting to receive more forgiveness for late work and mistakes, then getting angry when it didn't change their company's expectations. It's a hard conversation to have with someone who thinks the diagnosis is going to relieve the weight of all the problems they've been facing, when in fact it's only helpful for identifying what they need to work even harder on improving and coping with.
> The trap is trying to externalize the diagnoses as a get out of jail free card that can be used to justify avoiding hard changes and difficult work.
This is one reason why I'm kind of glad I wasn't diagnosed earlier. I would have 100% done this. Now, in my 40s, there is less need for kind of thing, and less tolerance for it in a work environment anyway. I haven't told my employer and don't plan to. I just assume it would put a target on my back.
I assume most people don’t fall into this trap where they try to get the world to adapt to their diagnosis. I think most people realize it’s something they need to work on.
I get the impression that it’s largely the people who arrive at the diagnosis after being pulled into certain online communities. The Reddit ADHD content can be wildly out of touch with reality because it functions as a space for venting and complaining, masquerading as a space for support and helpful resources.
When I was around a lot of juniors it was surprising to me that so many of them would go through the route of getting an ADHD diagnosis and then trying to get special accommodations at work for it. A lot of the workplaces were very receptive and attempted to provide reasonable accommodations, but it wasn’t what they expected or wanted from their employers. There seemed to be a belief that getting a diagnosis was a shield from being PIPed or that it meant that the employer couldn’t judge them for performance problems.
Really important to understand that depression can also manifest as poor concentration.
There's a huge problem right now with people getting locked into diagnoses found on the internet and then resisting advice of their doctors that doesn't match. It's scarily common for depressed patients to become convinced that they have ADHD and that ADHD explains everything, then to refuse depression treatment. They can jump from doctor to doctor until they find someone who doesn't care and just writes the prescription, but years can pass before they realize that stimulants aren't fixing their depression.
If you have depression, with or without ADHD, you need to address it. Don't get sucked into the "ADHD explains everything about you" mentality that gets spread on the internet.
I would be careful going straight in this direction without considering alternatives. I thought for my entire life that my issues were explained by ADHD, but it turned out all the symptoms you described (procrastination, depression, lack of focus, damaged self-esteem) were not symptoms of ADHD, but of childhood trauma. ADHD was the label my parents gave me to cover up their abuse of me, and not knowing any better as a child I decided to carry that label into adulthood. That choice did more harm to me than I can convey in words.
ADHD is a real condition, but the terminology is so muddled that any number of underlying problems can manifest as lack of attention and be called "ADHD", putting off any ability to truly recover for years or decades. I should have been more suspicious when stimulant medication had no long-term effect on my performance, even though it has helped actual sufferers of ADHD. My own problem was elsewhere.
I've wanted to write something similar regarding anxiety on a blog of my own for close to a decade now, but I was always afraid to put my feelings to paper, in case they become real. If they stay in my head, I can dismiss them. OP, I hope you feel some relief having posted this; if it helped you, perhaps it could encourage other to let down their walls.
Would you like a tip? This post started out as bulletpoints that were no more than 5 words each, eventually you start typing away like there's no tomorrow.
There's a lot I want to talk about, and not a lot of words until people stop scanning.
One of the major themes I pick up in this piece is an unfortunate, very common, misallocation of mental effort regarding the past-present-future mindset. As in, the described course is simply regarding treatment of symptoms. There is little to no awareness at this point in the journey that the sources of the mental issues may be much deeper than simply imposter syndrome or poor culture fit.
I am not a Psychologist. I am a Writer. Psychology is the invention of a Writer, facts. To write convincing characters or portraits of events, it takes a long and often painful study of the human psyche. When I finally fell into circumstances where I was able to apply this to myself, the process, after years, has resulted in a fundamental change in my own mind. For the better, though it is occasionally foreign or akin to feeling “adrift” in life - such is clarity.
Point being? Looking outside for help is problematic, and “friends and family” were in my situation the actual causes and “negative feedback loops” which had decades long consequences. Only by turning my back on them was I able to identify the nearly subconscious roots of my guilt and shame issues having no valid reason to exist. To the contrary, I found how my life had been quite a reflection of well formed morals, ethics, and principles of a high minded, pragmatic, and good quality of character person.
That’s why AA and friends and family suck as resources. They are unreliable. One does not repair the mind by continuing to engage with others also of a broken nature. Healing happens in solitude. Being unable or unwilling to take this path is the first thing to address in pursuit of real, lasting positive change.
Or, ya know, just take handfuls of pills and keep rowing your boat in the river of denial. Seems to be the way Mormonism keeps its catastrophically delusional dogma in play. Read the experiences of ex-Fundamentalist cast outs or voluntary abandonment.
One must turn their back on the broken culture that broke them to find the truth and spiritual health within. Good luck to all.
Hey, good luck! I've had some depressive episodes where I couldn't do work or even good off for a good week or so, but I'm privileged to have not been chronically depressed and need medication (I have others issues and working on those have prevented episodes). Going to therapy was the best decision of my life, and this year I've progressed enough that I put in almost 100 hours over 7 days for one critical project (which isn't something you should be able to brag about lol, but I'm proud of myself; a year ago I would've had a breakdown on about day 2). It's a journey though, and you'll have good weeks and bad, so just keep in mind that even if this week seems bad, next year's gonna be great!
> Going to therapy was the best decision of my life
Such an under-appreciated tool, going to therapy, granted you find the right person to do it with.
For people who've tried it just a few times but never really had "the epiphany", don't stop trying to find the right individual to have this space and conversations with, as it quite literally can change your life. It might take going through 5-6 people before you encounter "Ah, I actually feel like I could tell this person anything, I'm relatively sure they'll have good insights and understands what I want", but it so worth it once things click.
For software you don’t need to do engineering. You just need to provide value to your employer. No need to make a product perfect, but there is a need to make the product more valuable to your employer. Likely it will not be more valuable if the code is more shiny.
Work forces you to see your own motivations and character and you have to manage yourself like you might manage a very valuable employee that you cannot afford to lose.
This means you need to see your strengths and understand how you are motivated and try to come up with ways of making the best use of those characteristics. There's no point feeling sad that you aren't X or Y. If you're Z then how can you make best use of Z?
I suggest that it's important to stop thinking that other people are idiots because this lack of tolerance or understanding of other people seems to extend to yourself. You have to understand and accept yourself as having flaws. Then you may see that other people are the same - their apparent idiocy always has reasons behind it and you should take some time to understand them even if you still don't agree with them.
I notice that depression is something I feel the ghost of when my image of myself is damaged by some real world situation. The only real solution to this is to stop thinking about yourself so much and think about other people more. Help people do what they want rather than what you want for a bit.
Also as someone else noted, bad family situations, relationships etc, create a lot of weight. Try to avoid people who make you sad and find ways to hang out with people who interest you enough that you forget about yourself for a while.
He has said a lot f things I agree with, and also some stuff that seems intellectually and morally bananas; particularly around gender and sexuality. There was a point something shifted and he took, imo, a darker turn. Maybe it was his wife's illness, his own addiction challenges, or perhaps he was a victim of his own success and lost too much humility.
Probably a combination of those plus factors we aren't privy to.
I don't really know how to take the measure of a man and probably I'm not qualified to. I don't think he was evil though. People are complicated and not at all black and white.
In the audiobooks of 12 rules (which he narrated himself) there are some patches that are pretty touching and heartfelt.
I saw him in an interview with channel 4 news in the UK where the reporter boorishly tried to trap him constantly, to no avail. But just as you think, 'this is a smart guy', he begins to get incredibly smug and totally insufferable. The guy is a bit of an enigma. Mixed in with the rubbish there are some interesting ideas...
I entered adulthood with severe anxiety, stress and depression. I got a job as a software engineer and it was difficult in the beginning. I did not know what I was doing and I was paralyzed by every decision I needed to make. Second-guessing everything. I also had none of what people call "discipline" (to be frank, I still don't).
I have had a successful career, but it's not because I'm perfect. I make sloppy mistakes and mess up. It happens. For anything important, I do many-many passes over it.
What has helped me a lot is to become a "ticket-guy". Everything gets ticketed and I work on tickets. One or two tickets at any point in time, max. I document everything in the ticket. Once a manager looked at my ticket during a meeting, saw my comments under my own ticket, and made a joke about me talking to myself :D.
It keeps me on track. Sometimes people want me to do extra things and I can point them to my ticket and ask what's higher priority.
Find simple things that help. Communicate to people what they want you to communicate, even if it feels unnecessary.
I have a young daughter and when I think about the most critical skills I want her to develop throughout her adolescence, communication is one of the most important ones that will prove to be valuable throughout her life. In whichever career she chooses, with friendships, personal mental health, partner relationships, etc.
She is smart, she is talented and incredibly curious and those things I really do not worry about. What will set her apart from the majority of her peers throughout life will be her ability to effectively communicate and interact with others in a way that is meaningful. It’s benefits go far beyond what most of us appreciate
However succeeding is increasingly harder and harder.
You can be the best communicator in the world but when the world only want to push their story to manipulate you towards their will then the only skill that counts is obedience or being the most aggressive manipulator. I wish that meaningful communication was a key to good and content life.
You still can have your bubbles in the universe though, there it is invaluable, of course. Isolationism on the personal level might be necessary, unfortunately.
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[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 126 ms ] threadAfter a lot of investigation, I suspect that air quality, lighting, ergonomics can have adverse effects. Only recently I read an article that said that in a room with several persons and poor ventilation the CO2 levels reach levels which are known to impair brain and other neurological functions.
That is, I suspect that your depression is the symptom of a bad environment and not the root cause of your problems.
I understand it can be difficult or even frightening to think about problems that don't have a trivially described cause, effect and solution like your proposal, but it would be a good idea to ask questions, even as simply as asking if that OP has noticed an effect, before trivializing their struggles this way
Yeah that's BS.
When you were a kid in class in winter you had 20 kids + the teacher in the same room submerged by co2 , plus you were in a literal prison taken from the comfort of your bed in the dead of the night, had to ask permission to use the restroom and you could be denied , once you managed to get to the restroom you'd be submerged by even more co2 because of all the cigarette smoking going on from the older guys. And I am not even considering bullying as a factor that for the least lucky or strong could be added to the above list.
Still no depression in sight .
The problem comes from within, life was never meant to be taken this seriously, all the improvements and technological prowness that we tout vs. Subsaharan Africa come with the cost of literal self torture.
We have evolved in a scenario in which if you had reason to believe to have >90% chance of being alive 1 week from now (something like 168 hours into the future) then you could literally go out of your cave celebrating with your dick swinging left and right .
We have now reached a point where people would be unhappy with 168 years because 'oh no what happens next OMG I am so scared!'
Mental health and thinking about the future are 2 parallel lines going to infinity , they can never be reconciled, thinking about the future is much more toxic than CO2, lead, sniffing glue, meth, heroin, fentanyl and all the other so called harmful substances which as toxic as they might be they don't make you want to off yourself
It takes a lot of courage to write down one’s struggles for all the world to see. Your analysis denies the OP their self-reflection, and instead reduces it to a thing you happened to find in your own life.
OP/reader, more specifically, examine that post. It is an avalanche of negative self-talk. It's a person telling themeselves and the world that they cannot do something. You can take a perfectly healthy person, turn on this cycle, and watch it destroy their lives.
Depression has many causes, but its roots that make it stick are cycles like these. Antidepressants are a parachute, but you have to rebuild the engine and an important part of that is to learn to reframe events and identify and challenge your negative assumptions.
I'd like to add that for certain kinds of people, the process of doing this on your own is near torture.
I do have one comment though:
You mention stability in your goals, and how you want to find stability. What is stability to you? I've struggled for years with trying to find stability but it often just leads me back to thinking that there really is no such thing. You just never know what is going to happen in life. Finding a job and having stable employment are hard, and will likely only get harder as we age. Relationships have ups and downs, and their downs can be incredibly challenging to navigate. Most of us (at least in Europe) don't have the luxury of building wealth to escape the 9-5 grind. We simply need to work (and stay employable) until we have the ability to retire. I don't know how things work in your country, but here in Sweden I can't even start to collect my state pension until I turn 69. I need to find a way to remain employable until I am 69, or amass enough wealth to not need to worry about paying my bills if I don't have stable employment.
I could go on and on but honestly I think stability is a myth. Life is inherently unstable. But we human beings are also incredibly resiliant.
Take care of yourself. I wish you all the best OP.
As someone who has had a metric ton of shit hit his fan, this is a hard pill to swallow, but very effective medicine and has helped me tremendously.
In modern terms, you could say it's good to embrace a growth/flexibility mindset and work on the things that help you to build and restore resilience.
I'm doing alright as far as my career goes, not great, but okay. Which is disappointing because me and everyone around thought I'd do great, because I/they thought I was a great software developer, since I'm smart and I know my tech and my programming.
Unfortunately working as a software developer is a different story entirely, I found many times that my chase for good simple code takes time, and sometimes I overthink things and I don't test properly, and I'm also slow, and don't communicate the problem with my team because I don't work consistent hours, because my brain cannot do consistency.
Turns out I have ADHD. Possibly autism too. So I understand your feelings of I just need to be better, because it works for other right? Even tho you know that fundamentally you are right, but it works for others so why not you? I don't have a solution. But sometimes you can't just "be better" and "more consistent", I also wish I could, but maybe it's not possible.
Maybe the only way is to find where we are good and do more of that. If you have struggle finishing things hope on calls with people that are good at finishing things. Talk with them. Be proactive and be open. I also don't do this as often as I should, because I'm also ashamed.
I don't know exactly what the point was to this, but so you know others also fail, even tho they deemed smart and skilled by others.
Something I have been struggling with all my life is deciding whether I am flawed in some way, or the other party/the environment is - because my immediate reaction is always to feel responsible and inadequate, and it takes a lot of energy of confidently feeling superior or right about something. Like, is it a pattern, or am I reflecting to avoid being ignorant?
There's no need to feel superior: that's not particularly helpful and will tend to give you a distorted perception of reality. Most likely you're just average.
One way is to define what you view as good (or better: define what you view as "better") and just be that as much as you can. Because "trying to actually be better" puts you above the median person immediately, IMHO
https://fasterthanli.me/articles/that-health-is-mental
Steve Klabnik.
Pedophile Jeremy Bicha.
https://faultlore.com/blah/ ("My task is complete, but now I am hollow.")
Progress Report: Mental Health Edition: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/9jv49b/progress_repor...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Redox/comments/ny8d1j/open_source_a...
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/nygcjo/open_source_an...
Why is the Rust community filled with mental illness?
This post will be flagged, instead of actually caring about the Rust community's mental health.
Why did you read the message and think of negative self talk? I'm just trying to learn more about your point of view.
I was just pointing out things where I struggle.
My kids are like that - total blank slate joy machines at this age. And I assure you - fundamental optimism is ok everyone can improve their outlook and/or lot in life.
IDK why but one of the more damaging things about American culture is the constantly championing of individualism over community or belonging. Having one person you can talk to or spend quality time with is often enough and we should be encouraging more people to find their tribe.
My wife goes through negativity loops too, it hurts to see someone I love think so little of themselves but we're working through it together. That's life, we need to embrace it.
You just magically found this out when the Mental Health Diagnosis Fairy visited you one night? You spent thousands of dollars for a neuropsych evaluation where the result was 40% reality, 40% chance, and 20% how the evaluator was feeling that day? You self-diagnosed by reading Reddit threads? You somehow magically found the one psychiatrist who is willing to talk about ADHD without immediately assuming you're just trying to score some Ritalin to sell on the street? You got diagnosed by Dr. ChatGPT? What the actual fuck are you talking about? Everybody has ADHD, nobody has ADHD, who fucking knows? It's not possible that you actually know this.
(You "have ADHD" if a psychiatrist was willing to say you have it, gave you medication, and it improved your life quality in multiple spheres and not just "I can do more work".)
What if your problem is "your body does not manufacture neurotransmitters in the correct ratios"
> Find coping mechanisms
What if the coping mechanism is doctor prescribed medications?
There's a bunch of arguments in this thread that sound a lot like "you don't need cochlear implants to hear if you're deaf, just listen harder" to me
I don't live in the US, my experience comes from the Netherlands.
I was having hard time dealling with the Covid period, and was having lots of anxiety regarding my work and proeutivy so I reached out to my GP. Talked and had sessions with 2 different psycologists over a year, both suggested to ask a referral to an ADHD specific clinic.
Since I did not want medication I never followed through. Fast forward a few years I reached out to a GP because I was thinking the ADHD "assesment" was correct. Followed up with another GP, they were super kind took my ADHD concerns seriously specially since I wanted to avoid medication first. Got referred to a psicology practice that followed me for 8 weeks, after they they also gave insurance a note that it was possible ADHD and followed me up with a different referal to a different clinic more specialized again.
So no I don't have an ADHD "certificate" to hang on the wall, but I have talked with enough professionals that think that might be the case.
Why are you an engineer if you are struggling to complete the basic tasks? Are you meant to be doing what you are doing?
It's true a steel inner strength is required in day to day engineering. It's hard, and it lacks positive reinformcement almost always. When you hear something it is bad.
But let's define "buck up" and see the other side of the elephant. That blog post is a textbook example of negative self talk. You can have a world that looks down on you and spit back at it and do your best work, but if you look down on yourself you _will not_ bootstrap your way out, because you learn to believe you cannot.
That is depression, and depression is reinforced if not caused by that self-talk. Addressing the self-talk and stopping the flagellation will allow that steel inner strength to build up. Medication is a parachute but the wings and engine need to be rebuilt using self confidence, and that's a long road of:
* reframing failures as lessons
* honesty with self about your own role in your depression
* careful build-up of support
* learning to find the important and good in each memory, vs the deprecating and painful
Exercise, cultivating positive fear responses, self-challenge are all important.
What you're pinning as "therapy talk" is just that last one - you need to think critically about how you approach life problems, not just accept the most negative interpretation of events and your inner monologue.
I think any stoic would agree with that statement.
I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways.
You raise good questions, but thousands more could be asked: Are you taking care of your foundations? Sleeping enough? Eating nutritious food? Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself? Is your work environment healthy? What things aren't healthy that you've normalised? Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? And so on.
My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these, so "bucking up" can be seen as either great advice or irresponsible and insensitive, and it doesn't necessarely apply to "most of y'all". So maybe you need to buck up, but also don't be frustrated if you don't. Maybe the solution is elsewhere.
>My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these
I'd argue these are all binary questions and pretty easy to answer:
>Eating nutritious food? : Yes/No
>Sleeping enough?: Yes/No
>Are you taking care of your foundations? Yes/No based on above plus Yes/No to "Sufficient Exercise?"
>Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself?: Yes/No (Stop playing videogames, reduce phone use, limit drugs and alcohol)
>Is your work environment healthy?: Yes/No (If 'No' how can you leave it)
> Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? : Yes/No
An easy happiness formula is:
1. Eat right: Maintain a healthy diet to keep your physical energy stable.
2. Exercise: Keep active every day to release mood-boosting chemicals.
3. Get enough sleep: Prioritize rest to reset your mental state.
4. Imagine an incredible future: Daydream about grand possibilities, even if you don't fully believe them at first.
5. Work toward a flexible schedule: Having control over your time is one of the highest drivers of happiness.
6. Do things you can steadily improve at: Progress and mastery trigger the chemicals in your body that make you happy.
7. Help others: Once you’ve helped yourself first, giving back provides profound psychological benefits.
8. Reduce daily decisions to routine: Remove mental clutter and decision fatigue by establishing steady habits
> [list of eight things that may be extremely difficult for people with depression]
.
I literally do all 8 of those things and I'm depressed as fuck. Maybe mental health is harder than you think?
When you're in a negative mental state, none of these things are easy. Eating right, for example, assumes you know what right is, you can afford it, you have access to it and you have the energy to get it. All of those points have their own unique "prerequisites".
A bad mental state can keep you from completing those prerequisites.
A bad mental state can prevent the formula from working even if strictly followed.
There's still value in doing them because it keeps things from being worse. If there's something worse than being depressed, it's being depressed and hungry, or depressed and scared, or depressed and tired.
A bad mental state also messes with your perception. Good becomes bad, bad becomes worse, and worse becomes worst. Keeping a daily track of things ensures that you'll always have an objective source of truth. So that even if things feel hopeless, you can look back and pinpoint the few good moments.
I've been steadily working on my version of the formula for ~4y and the majority of the time I feel content but there are days where its still a challenge to do the right thing and days where I have to force myself to even get out of bed. But I can always look back and see that things aren't that bad. They just feel that way right now.
I came into adulthood with insane levels of anxiety, stress (self-induced), depression (and eventually mania) - due to my childhood home life.
Making decisions early on in my career as an engineer was difficult for me and caused a lot of stress. I thought I was a complete moron (well, I am) and all my decisions were going to be completely wrong. So I chewed through them continually, which was unhealthy.
Not an issue anymore. You learn the skills you need to do the job. I would never tell someone that they shouldn't even try, just because they got a bad hand dealt to them at some point in their life. Fuck it, try it. If it's so bad that you completely buckle, then maybe it indeed isn't for you. However, you might be able to bear the storm for a bit and eventually turn into a better engineer for it.
>Very, very, very little of real-world software dev is anything close to "engineering".
I mean same principles apply in general.
> If there’s one thing I would like to add is that engineering is a much of a mindset than knowledge.
Amen.
> I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways.
The official definition of engineering is: "Engineering is the application of mathematics and scientific principles to design, build, and optimize structures, machines, systems, and processes." Software development falls into this definition. If there isn't something in this definition you like then you're in the wrong job. I find joy in optimizing processes. No matter what scale, a well designed and optimized system brings me joy.
You are not much different from any other animal at some level. With enough conditioning you will believe that you have no agency over your own life, and you’ll just sit there and take the shocks hoping it ends soon. Or worse, you’ll lose perspective and imagine the only solution to your current (likely temporary) circumstance is to (definitely very permanently) end your own life.
If you can’t follow these basics, why are you even writing comments? Are you meant to be using the internet?
The thing is that I have now learned that I cannot do it. To play devil's advocate, I might just be a lazy bum. I still think it's good to be aware that you can walk away from a position that you know you cannot do.
Buckling up will not help me here. I've been upbuckling for two years now, and my buckles keep going down.
I really resonated with your eventual realization that while others have their own battles, they are very rarely similar to this. I guess I knew it was unusual, but I took way too long to realize just how weird it was to feel soul-crushingly miserable for no identifiable reason, even when things are going well, even when I'm around friends I like and they're having fun.
Wishing you the best OP.
Wish you all the best. Mental illness sucks.
I will post an update every now-and-then. It might not be very software-related (sorry dang!), so I will try to not post all of them on here.
I wish you the best as well! And you are free to contact me, I think talking to someone in a similar boat helps a lot.
That's most people. They just keep it inside, assuming everyone else is doing better than they are.
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
1. It's okay to make mistakes. Pain + reflection = progress.
2. Try to shift your perspective so your sense of worth isn't tied to your work.
3. Anytime you say "I should", "I need to", usually this is sign you are blindly following some sort of cognitive script [0]
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubMghRYqk8o&t=1844s
I think it's also good to be aware when you're lying to yourself. An easy example is how people talk about their gym membership.
"Oh, I would go, but I am so busy with X", or "I am already doing Y, so I don't really need to go". It's always a non-reason, while the true reason is that they just do not see a reason to go.
I don't get why this happens with work, though. I didn't love my job, but I definitely loved the colleagues, and I felt like I didn't do that bad of a job (ofcourse I see this differently now, I was doing a bad job).
In Buddhism, excessive "need" language is identified with excessive clinging to some aspect of life that behaves contrary to your cravings or your understanding. (Upadana = clinging, tanha = craving, together with its positive and negative forms bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha, "things must be so," "things must not be so.") The usual cure prescribed is to cure the ignorance that causes these illusions of reality, and/or detach from the clinging that causes your ignorance to inspire suffering (dukkha).
REBT is inspired by a number of philosophies, Buddhism and otherwise. If this more analytical approach to self-help appeals to you any, I might encourage you to check it out.
The different usages of I or i though ... please fix the LLM type checking it.
So it's not really mental, it's literally a disease of the physical body. The brains are then affected as a side effect.
You can look up low carb, carnivore, heavy metal elimination groups etc... and you will find thousands of real testimonials.
The problem is that many if not most of these are hard if not impossible to diagnose since the modern medical science is lacking completely at this plus the combination of arrogant doctors not taking these people seriously and gaslighting them makes it 10 times worse, so experimentation is needed and then a commitment for a year or two.
Many improve in 4 to 6 months. Some take longer.
I know several people who suffer with ADD, who are extremely intelligent and talented, and felt the exact same emotions before they were diagnosed. Those emotions were _much_ alleviated once treated, mostly through pharmacological means. Anecdotal but seems a strong pattern to me.
For the people you know that have ADD, was medication sufficient? Did they still end up taking therapy for their neurodivergence? I wonder how long it takes before I can be a functional programmer again. I know it'll take a while.
So the therapy is partly focused on emotional management, and partly about skills to do seemingly simple things like cook and put away laundry.
I haven't seen coaching for ADHD software engineers, but I'd be interested in it. (I'd rather take more cooking classes though.)
The treatment for ADD is one of two medications, methylphenidate or dexamphetamine. You can try other things in addition to these, but not instead of these, and you should try both - there really is just no substitute.
(In some places, bupropion can be prescribed as an antidepressant. It has effects that also help with executive dysfunction, so you may find it to be more effective than serotonin-based antidepressants.)
realized this one about myself earlier this year, it really helped to boil it down to something besides “I am just inherently bad at things.” that attitude worked as a dumb single kid, but it was harming my adult life and relationships.
therapy helped me get there. I have been on bupropion for about a year, and recently started on methylphenidate. it might not be the right one for me, or maybe too small of a dosage. I’m taking it slow and being deliberate with the drugs.
working with a personal trainer to get in shape and lose weight, as well as quitting my fully vested tech job to fuck off and be a cook for a while has also done wonders for me here. it’s cliche, but you really can’t replace fitness with anything else, and that took me 35 years to internalize.
Are you doing entry level line cook work or something?
I'll re-enter tech later... maybe.
I am also fantasizing about this and am only holding off from doing it because of the social stigma (what idiot would quit a well paid full-time job). My biggest issue with the software industry is the feverish shiny-new-thing syndrome that AI is causing (and my current company is all in on this, with "Hyper-Velocity Engineering" panels). Maybe I don't want to move at light speed and would rather stop and smell the roses.
but I don’t care. I put 15 years into my tech career. I am good at building software, and I will not let this ridiculous “resume gap” problem stop me from taking a break for my mental health. any tech employer that wouldn’t want me because of it is a place I wouldn’t want to work anyway.
also, to be honest, I’m writing more code now than I ever did in the last year of my tech job… working on a full CMS and custom website combo for my friends bar, such that I can copy that template over for future projects (want to help local businesses escape the bullshit machine). also building a cool web development desktop app. and more! I’m having a great time
This really struck a chord with me. I've spent the last 15+ years building up a craftperson's skillset (IMO) akin to a carpenter's or mechanic's. Yet, people still seem surprised when I tell them I'm not willing to run a slop cannon and excrete software which is _good enough_. I actually enjoy the nuts and bolts of writing and debugging software and using AI feels like cheating (if only myself). I'm really not sure where I go from here. I wish I had a work situation like yours to complain about but I know I'd have hit the eject button the minute someone started mandating anything about my workflow, so it's kind of moot.
Cue the usual propaganda: "Oh but that's just real life," "it's the nature of our industry," "I'll agree things aren't perfect, but {nothing must change}," "I understand, but the true problem lies with {mistake we'll gladly keep making}," "it's bad, but at least we're not {killing babies}."
It's become almost automatic to associate pondering with perfectionism, and perfectionism with flaw.
No, not quite - there's a variety of different ADHD medications and I'd argue there's more popular ones like Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine). Non-stimulants like Strattera or Intuniv absolutely can and are prescribed on their own, which are really useful for people that respond poorly to stimulants.
Perhaps you meant to say there's two main classes of stimulants (amphetamines, methylphenidates) that are worth investigating and shouldn't be skipped over?
Strattera can help (I mentioned bupropion, another SDNRI). Of course if you try stimulants and don’t respond well, it’s totally fine to just use e.g. Strattera. What I’m advocating against is e.g. “try Strattera first, if it seems to help, don’t bother with stimulants”. (Some places, cultures, or medical systems do have surprisingly strong biases against stimulants!)
But IMO it's not really that incorrect to say there are two main types of stimulants.
You rarely (at least never where I'm from) get instant release methylphenidate. Always some delay mechanism. Shorter - Ritalin, longer - Concerta.
And the lizine particle attached to dextroamphetamine acts as a such delayer, but isn't active by itself -- being only an amino acid. So it's still kind of amphetamine just as Concerta is methylphenidate.
The internet is really, really bad at pushing everyone toward ADHD diagnoses and then pushing them further toward stimulants. There's a darker part of some of the communities then pushes people to keep pressuring their doctors for higher and higher doses and also discourages people from trying therapy.
Outside of the internet I know several people who did the rounds with medications and ended up on the non-stimulant options and preferred them. This is an unthinkable conclusion if your primary source of information is Reddit, X, or TikTok ADHD influencers, but it's pretty common in the real world.
Stimulants have a habit of being enjoyable at first (meaning people like taking them, beyond their attention effects) and then the effects wane over the years, to the point that there are studies showing that the effects of stimulants taken long term in children are minimal to unmeasurable after several years. This is confusing to anyone who has been taking them for years and notices a difference on days when they don't take them, but that's explainable by the fact that it takes months (or longer) for the brain to adapt to not having them in the body. For some reason this same effect is not debated as much when you talk about people who drink 5 cups of coffee per day but then crash hard when they miss their coffee, but it gets protested and argued a lot when we talk about literal amphetamines.
Anyway, please don't listen too much to internet ADHD forums. They're just so, so bad these days with bad advice and poor psychology/therapy takes. You really need to engage with professionals with an open mind and not be single minded about acquiring and taking stimulants if you want to address this problem as a whole. The way the internet treats ADHD as a simple "low dopamine" state (which is wrong on many levels) and then points to stimulants as a "raise your dopamine" drug to neatly cancel it out sounds nice, but it's wrong on so many levels.
The standard approach to addressing this is thru the use of "drug holidays," regular short periods during which one doesn't take their medication with the intention of abating the growth of tolerance. I much prefer going this route since stimulants have proven to be such a solid solution. The other standard approach is, of course, upping dosage, which could be seen as only delaying the problem.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote, though. The internet is indeed a terrible place to get any advice on these topics.
I went up, but then backed down because even 2mg was seriously affecting my sleep quality. I'm feeling much better at 1mg.
nb I think if I wasn't employed than I'd be best off with just this, but employment is best with stimulants. Unfortunately stimulants have side effects.
Hope you get it worked out OP. I will say, if it's ADHD, it's 100% worth trying to get the best treatment you can.
I tried this for several years and only afterwards realized it was bad for me - one because of personality changes, two because of high blood pressure.
It will give you a lot of stamina and ability to continue on the life path you're on, but I got metaphorical tunnel vision and basically wasn't able to do anything after the stimulant crash around dinnertime.
Yep. I was diagnosed with ASD and ADHD about a 1.5 years ago... My whole life came into focus. Everything that didn't make sense suddenly started to make sense. What I thought were 15 different issues I was dealing with were really all just symptoms of the one (or two in my case). The internal tension I've always felt was also explained by the competing desires of ASD and ADHD.
Knowing this hasn't really "fixed" any of that, but it has given me an explanation, language to use to explain it, and permission to stop searching for what's wrong with me... which I've been doing for 20 years. It's been nice to have a break.
The trap is trying to externalize the diagnoses as a get out of jail free card that can be used to justify avoiding hard changes and difficult work. The more difficult version of this is when someone tries to externalize the responsibilities of their diagnosis on others. I've seen a couple situations where someone got an ADHD diagnosis and then took it straight to their employers expecting to receive more forgiveness for late work and mistakes, then getting angry when it didn't change their company's expectations. It's a hard conversation to have with someone who thinks the diagnosis is going to relieve the weight of all the problems they've been facing, when in fact it's only helpful for identifying what they need to work even harder on improving and coping with.
This is one reason why I'm kind of glad I wasn't diagnosed earlier. I would have 100% done this. Now, in my 40s, there is less need for kind of thing, and less tolerance for it in a work environment anyway. I haven't told my employer and don't plan to. I just assume it would put a target on my back.
I get the impression that it’s largely the people who arrive at the diagnosis after being pulled into certain online communities. The Reddit ADHD content can be wildly out of touch with reality because it functions as a space for venting and complaining, masquerading as a space for support and helpful resources.
When I was around a lot of juniors it was surprising to me that so many of them would go through the route of getting an ADHD diagnosis and then trying to get special accommodations at work for it. A lot of the workplaces were very receptive and attempted to provide reasonable accommodations, but it wasn’t what they expected or wanted from their employers. There seemed to be a belief that getting a diagnosis was a shield from being PIPed or that it meant that the employer couldn’t judge them for performance problems.
I try use that as a motivator to not just blame my shortcomings on ADHD and instead keep pushing myself to work through them.
Ofcourse, no pill is magical, and I have no expectations of that. At least fluoxetine fixed my sleeping habits.
Really important to understand that depression can also manifest as poor concentration.
There's a huge problem right now with people getting locked into diagnoses found on the internet and then resisting advice of their doctors that doesn't match. It's scarily common for depressed patients to become convinced that they have ADHD and that ADHD explains everything, then to refuse depression treatment. They can jump from doctor to doctor until they find someone who doesn't care and just writes the prescription, but years can pass before they realize that stimulants aren't fixing their depression.
If you have depression, with or without ADHD, you need to address it. Don't get sucked into the "ADHD explains everything about you" mentality that gets spread on the internet.
ADHD is a real condition, but the terminology is so muddled that any number of underlying problems can manifest as lack of attention and be called "ADHD", putting off any ability to truly recover for years or decades. I should have been more suspicious when stimulant medication had no long-term effect on my performance, even though it has helped actual sufferers of ADHD. My own problem was elsewhere.
Thank you so much for sharing.
There's a lot I want to talk about, and not a lot of words until people stop scanning.
One of the major themes I pick up in this piece is an unfortunate, very common, misallocation of mental effort regarding the past-present-future mindset. As in, the described course is simply regarding treatment of symptoms. There is little to no awareness at this point in the journey that the sources of the mental issues may be much deeper than simply imposter syndrome or poor culture fit.
I am not a Psychologist. I am a Writer. Psychology is the invention of a Writer, facts. To write convincing characters or portraits of events, it takes a long and often painful study of the human psyche. When I finally fell into circumstances where I was able to apply this to myself, the process, after years, has resulted in a fundamental change in my own mind. For the better, though it is occasionally foreign or akin to feeling “adrift” in life - such is clarity.
Point being? Looking outside for help is problematic, and “friends and family” were in my situation the actual causes and “negative feedback loops” which had decades long consequences. Only by turning my back on them was I able to identify the nearly subconscious roots of my guilt and shame issues having no valid reason to exist. To the contrary, I found how my life had been quite a reflection of well formed morals, ethics, and principles of a high minded, pragmatic, and good quality of character person.
That’s why AA and friends and family suck as resources. They are unreliable. One does not repair the mind by continuing to engage with others also of a broken nature. Healing happens in solitude. Being unable or unwilling to take this path is the first thing to address in pursuit of real, lasting positive change.
Or, ya know, just take handfuls of pills and keep rowing your boat in the river of denial. Seems to be the way Mormonism keeps its catastrophically delusional dogma in play. Read the experiences of ex-Fundamentalist cast outs or voluntary abandonment.
One must turn their back on the broken culture that broke them to find the truth and spiritual health within. Good luck to all.
Such an under-appreciated tool, going to therapy, granted you find the right person to do it with.
For people who've tried it just a few times but never really had "the epiphany", don't stop trying to find the right individual to have this space and conversations with, as it quite literally can change your life. It might take going through 5-6 people before you encounter "Ah, I actually feel like I could tell this person anything, I'm relatively sure they'll have good insights and understands what I want", but it so worth it once things click.
This means you need to see your strengths and understand how you are motivated and try to come up with ways of making the best use of those characteristics. There's no point feeling sad that you aren't X or Y. If you're Z then how can you make best use of Z?
I suggest that it's important to stop thinking that other people are idiots because this lack of tolerance or understanding of other people seems to extend to yourself. You have to understand and accept yourself as having flaws. Then you may see that other people are the same - their apparent idiocy always has reasons behind it and you should take some time to understand them even if you still don't agree with them.
I notice that depression is something I feel the ghost of when my image of myself is damaged by some real world situation. The only real solution to this is to stop thinking about yourself so much and think about other people more. Help people do what they want rather than what you want for a bit.
Also as someone else noted, bad family situations, relationships etc, create a lot of weight. Try to avoid people who make you sad and find ways to hang out with people who interest you enough that you forget about yourself for a while.
Some mix of the fame, coordinated bad-faith campaigns against him and the Benzos broke the man's brain.
But you go back to his lecture series and TV show appearances from 2017 and prior and the man is lucid and insightful.
Probably a combination of those plus factors we aren't privy to.
I don't really know how to take the measure of a man and probably I'm not qualified to. I don't think he was evil though. People are complicated and not at all black and white.
Believe it or not, he was a pretty good academic at one point.
I saw him in an interview with channel 4 news in the UK where the reporter boorishly tried to trap him constantly, to no avail. But just as you think, 'this is a smart guy', he begins to get incredibly smug and totally insufferable. The guy is a bit of an enigma. Mixed in with the rubbish there are some interesting ideas...
I have had a successful career, but it's not because I'm perfect. I make sloppy mistakes and mess up. It happens. For anything important, I do many-many passes over it.
What has helped me a lot is to become a "ticket-guy". Everything gets ticketed and I work on tickets. One or two tickets at any point in time, max. I document everything in the ticket. Once a manager looked at my ticket during a meeting, saw my comments under my own ticket, and made a joke about me talking to myself :D.
It keeps me on track. Sometimes people want me to do extra things and I can point them to my ticket and ask what's higher priority.
Find simple things that help. Communicate to people what they want you to communicate, even if it feels unnecessary.
She is smart, she is talented and incredibly curious and those things I really do not worry about. What will set her apart from the majority of her peers throughout life will be her ability to effectively communicate and interact with others in a way that is meaningful. It’s benefits go far beyond what most of us appreciate
However succeeding is increasingly harder and harder.
You can be the best communicator in the world but when the world only want to push their story to manipulate you towards their will then the only skill that counts is obedience or being the most aggressive manipulator. I wish that meaningful communication was a key to good and content life.
You still can have your bubbles in the universe though, there it is invaluable, of course. Isolationism on the personal level might be necessary, unfortunately.
I got diagnosed with ADHD 2 years ago, at age 35.
It was one of the most important things I’ve ever done.
I strongly encourage you to keep looking into this.
Please be gentle to yourself. You’ve been fighting your whole life with one hand tied behind your back, and no one even knew.