Finder is indeed frustrating. "Recent" seems like an attempt to fix this without the need to use some giant camera roll?
The (hard) problem is that almost every finder alternative/add-on I've tried is someone else's ideal workflow that still doesn't sit well with me. I find KDE's Dolphin similarly frustrating - for very similar reasons.
Both work marginally better (for me) when used in concert with the quick-find tools like Alfred (or Spotlight) and KRunner. None of these are perfect.
Showerthought: maybe the "find files" interfaces aren't the worst offenders; maybe it's the "place files" workflows that are problematic and we're trying to solve the wrong problem?
If only recent actually worked. I see no rhyme or reason why something gets in recent. I guess finder has to be involved. So often I am working with files between apps, saving and opening and such and the files never appear in recent which defeats the purpose for me.
And then we have the spotlight deamon processes which seem to exist only to burn earth's precious resources.
Finder is frustrating but this guy is just complaining about the fact that he's unable to organize his own files into directories in a way that lets him find them later. He then calls himself a power user. Finder even has tags to help with this, which is more than most operating systems get
I've had to use Finder, and it's definitely frustrating in a "Think Different" sort of way, but this article doesn't actually mention why beyond vague statements.
It's my app, no veil intended. It pulls all the drives, folders into one stream . So it doesn't matter where a file is located. Then it reads what is inside so you can type in what you remember.
I can make the apologetics for just about anything in macOS. After over 20 years of using OS X/macOS, I still can't make the case for this one. Imagine a button has focus, you hit Enter, and it allows you to change the text on the button instead of executing the code behind button.click(). That behavior is just as dumb if a file has focus in Finder.
Aside from “it’s historically always done that”, I’d argue that because you use arrow keys to navigate around the finder (left, right, up, down to select, CMD-up to go up a directory, it only makes sense that CMD-down would open a directory (or file/application). And within that context it makes more sense than “enter”.
Because, as one of the original GUIs, when they conceived of how the Macintosh worked, you used the command keys to perform actions on files, and you could rename the file just by typing. Cmd-O was the shortcut for opening files, which makes sense for obvious reasons.
When they released the Macintosh to the world, Andy Hertzfeld realized that people were renaming items in the Finder by accident; so he added the "return" key (already used to confirm actions) as an "arming" step[1].
Now, one might ask: wouldn't that interrupt people navigating via the keyboard? No, because the original Macintosh didn't have arrow keys on the keyboard. This was an intentional choice—or, perhaps, mandate from Jobs—as a way to get users to use the mouse as their primary input device, and to force developers to create mouse-driven interfaces. With no arrow keys, no typeahead search implemented, and a clean slate for designing an interface, I'm guessing using Return to open a file wasn't a strong consideration at the time.
Why wasn't it changed? Because Mac OS X was made for Mac users, and we all have muscle memory dating back decades :P
I can't imagine editing text on a keyboard with no arrow keys to be any better than the horrible experience of doing it on a mobile device... which might be why Apple decided to add them quite early in the history of the Mac.
Not sure if you're just talking about past design, but currently you can use arrow keys and enter in the menubar, tapping first letter of options to hops there, and can activate menubar with a keyboard shortcut of your choosing. You can also hop directly to help, start typing and get matches to select, all without a mouse.
In the end, it turns out for me that the classic explorer Tree View is the most intuitive. I know where things are as a sub-tree system. I get that hard links etc. complicate this and perhaps there are smart folders etc which do not fit this model well but I find I frequently want to “Go Up” in the hierarchy and this requires an uncomfortable shortcut on a Macbook (arrow key) or a menu button rather than a toolbar icon.
But these are complaints. The right answer is to see if I can build a file explorer for MacOS that behaves in the fashion I desire.
Once I got used to column view, I miss it on other operating systems. I don't feel like there's anything I can't do with two Finder windows in column view. And for everything else there's the terminal.
For the main pane? I used to have Windows Explorer with the column view in the main pane and the tree view on the left pane and it was perfect. I don't really mind Nautilus with the breadcrumbs on the top and columns in the main pane. But I think simply going up and down in a Finder window is quite hard unless you navigated there manually, but I'm usually in finder because of `open ~/Folder/Path` and so I end up manually going Cmd-G and typing my path in because it's too hard to navigate otherwise.
The problem with Finder is historic. The classic Mac finder was a work of art, if you are the sort of person that arranges things spatially, but most programmers are not. Hence NeXT created something else which got merged back incoherently into what became OSX.
The Risc OS filer remains king, largely because managing windows on Risc OS is much more tolerable.
I think you're gonna lose a lot of comments here to the "Finder" word here. The problem is not the Finder but directories, which exist on all operating systems.
With that aside, this is a great idea for most files. Of course my images are still in folders with the projects they belong to, but my life photos are in one stream. Files, contacts, a lot of data would benefit greatly from this visualization.
As for people with 1000 files on their desktop, who cares, they are as good as hoarders and they get what it comes to them. Discipline helps both in the real and in the digital world.
If you have the time to be focused on folder hierarchy and organization, great. Most of the people I help don't, and I built this for them. In building it, I learned that organizing files is a wastes much more time than you think. Finding files is all anyone actually needs.
I don't disagree, but it depends. Some files just don't stand alone and are related to each other.
"Stream" photo libraries of people who take pictures for work know this issue all too well: there's a lot of junk mixed with their personal photos. What if we had... folders: one personal and one for work or per customer.
Wow. I'm a Linux user and I have to use Mac for some work related tasks. I genuinely hate Finder and was going to lean back and enjoy reading this article.
This went into a direction I didn't expect at all.
Yeah, as someone whose favorite file manager is Dolphin, I have the opposite preferences of the author of the marketing post. I feel like Finder is overly-simplified and tries to abstract the directory structure away from the user too much.
My most recent laptop purchase was a Macbook Pro, because the price/performance is just so lopsided with the price of memory pushing everything up to Apple-like prices, it didn't make sense to buy an x86 laptop. But, coming from Linux it's a miserable user experience. I genuinely hate macOS. Every time I use it, I'm surprised by some weird thing about it, some limitation, some annoyance, some weird bug. Installing software is ridiculous. And, yes, Finder is weird for the sake of being weird.
I simply don't understand how Apple has the reputation it has.
It's the hardware. Always the hardware. Best trackpad (ALL other trackpads are trash), best build and screen (since the first aluminium Macbook Pro retina) and right now, best silicon. But I also hate MacOS.
You know you can just use Linux on it. I work from a Linux VM in UTM as my main desktop whole day, with Mac OS just being a VM hypervisor for me, it's pretty good!
I can't speak for the person you've asked, but, I have an M5 Macbook Pro and Asahi Linux only recently got support for M3 Macs, and that support is marked WIP on most features: https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/m3/
I assume it'll be a couple of years before Asahi is an option for my machine.
What you could do instead is just set up your favorite Linux distro in an arm64 VM and run it with UTM (qemu wrapper). Works nearly flawlessly! I connect it to an external monitor and keyboard and can't believe it's not a Linux box most of the day. They even got Vulkan (almost) working now.
Not true by any stretch, though parent didn't mention any competitor
MacOS's current Finder dates from 2001. Earlier versions of "Finder" were a completely different piece of software - different code, different interface, different UI metaphor. File manager software predating it:
Windows Explorer
GNOME/Nautilus
KDE/Konqueror
X11/xfm (X File Manager)
sundry proprietary Unix workstations
All of the above interfaces share the same interface lineage as Mac OS, lying as they all do downstream of Xerox PARC. And all have converged on the same interface principles - visible path, a button to ascend to the parent directory, etc.
Everyone who comes to Finder from anywhere else complains. Finder is weird for the sake of being weird.
> Finder was extensively reworked in 2001 from the file manager in NeXT to be much closer to the original Finder, and most of the complaints here are about UI decisions taken from the original Finder, released in 1984.
Why would they ignore all the lessons learned between 1984 and 2001?
That's the reason why most people complain about Finder today.
I went through similar feelings switching to the Mac ecosystem (from Linux) in 2012... But I quickly settled on some tools I wouldn't be without now.
Finder is terrible, but I switched for Forklift early on.
I think it's amazing, so much better than the Gnome and KDE file managers I used before. It covers so many bases, from being a twin-pane orthodox manager, directory comparer and synchroniser, bulk regex renamer, etc. Handles local directories as well as remote ones via SFTP, WebDAV, S3, Google Drive, SMB, NFS, etc.
And switching to Alfred was a real pleasure. I could see where Gnome Do took inspiration from, but it's a pale imitation.
I also installed iTerm2 early on, and I use it to this day. Easily the best fit terminal for my purposes.
>My most recent laptop purchase was a Macbook Pro, because the price/performance is just so lopsided with the price of memory pushing everything up to Apple-like prices, it didn't make sense to buy an x86 laptop.
I see people justify their Mac purchases this way all the time, but IMO it's just cope and not their actual primary reason for making that decision. I've never seen where the math actually worked out where the price/performance actually made Apple made sense.
Surprised by the rest of the comments because I genuinely like Finder more than any other file manager I've used. I run it in column mode all the time. Space-to-QuickLook is also amazing.
As a Windows user for years until 2 years ago, I can’t believe how unusable finder is. It’s just terrible. I feel like it actively hides the filesystem from you at every turn.
Windows was bad but at least Explorer (windows 10 version anyway) let you easily SEE the file system
I’m sure as hell not buying a subscription project to fix that though lololol
This was my instant reaction when I started using a Mac. But 15 years later, even knowing more tricks for interacting with it, it still baffles me. Once you've used Windows Explorer and a few Linux distro navigators, there's no denying that Finder is unquestionably worst in class.
Our KDE development motto (and a contrast explained in our HIG) is "Simple by default, powerful when needed". It's nice to see someone re-state it so naturally and eloquently in the wild!
I have been a hardcore Konqueror user back in the days. Early dolphin felt like a back step. Nowadays, thought, it easily outshines Konqueror. I still miss a few KIOs which were showcased in Konqueror. I guess they were discontinued.
As a Mac user since the 1980s, I feel feel like Finder is easily best in class, even after ten or fifteen years of design. I would describe Windows Explorer as “embarrassingly bad” in comparison, despite having a good hold on the shortcuts.
I honestly think it is a matter of what you like rather than what is good or bad.
> As a Mac user since the 1980s, I feel feel like Finder is easily best in class
Once internal muscle memory is established, the usability problems can be easily dismissed; but for the rest of us, who got used to better file managers, Finder is atrocious.
As a Windows user in the 90s, Linux user in the 2000s, and Mac user since the 2010s, I dread the moments when I have to use Finder.
What do you like about the other file managers over the Finder?
Finder has column view and quicklook. If there’s something that I’m missing out on from, say, Explorer or Thunar or whatever, I’d love to hear it. Whenever I have to sort through a lot of files on Linux or Windows, I get a better experience by exporting a SMB share and sorting on a Mac.
The only file managers that I’ve used that felt competitive with the Mac are tools like Midnight Commander (or the original Norton version).
But also I can use JK to navigate down/up instead of moving my hand of their resting positions to the cursor.
And NM you jump faster by 5 files.
And the ability to change shortcuts easily
And the ability to use double tap C to copy file name, and tap C then tap F to copy full file path.
And turn column view into a flat list of all files at or below the current dir for easier search
And instant search (with the help of Everything) limited to the current dir+children, shown in the same file manager list with the same navigation option
And the ability to tap Cmd-R multiple files to select rename file full name/name/extension
And the ability to autoreplace illegal filesystem file chars with my own alternative to preserve those Divide/Rule common document names
And the ability to automatically control how much space a column is wasting.
Etc., a million of other things that differentiate a real pro file manager from the toy of Finder
To be honest, a lot of these seem to have the shape, “I want to be able to press button A to do action X,” but for the Finder, you have to press button B instead. I was hoping for something a little more interesting.
Things like, “In a Real Pro file manager, you can double-tap C to copy a filename, but in Finder, you have to press command-C.” Do you see why I’m a little disappointed by this list?
I’m interested to hear what file manager you’re using because it sounds like you’d hate Explorer, Nautilus, and Thunar too.
Don't close your mind to new knowledge and it might just get interested!
> but in Finder, you have to press command-C.” Do you see why I’m a little disappointed by this list?
Sure I do, you're doing the lazy cut. The original quote was:
> double tap C to copy file name, and tap C then tap F to copy full file path.
And of course you can't do that in Finder, that's just nonsense. Now also add a few more actions: copy file name without the extension, copy the extension, copy full path quoted for pasting in your terminal - and
A. You've run out of keys and modifiers, and definitely out of memory to remember which action does what
B. C. D. It's actually not trivial to extend Finder in this way, and of course you can't easily change the keybinds, and of course you can't group those keybinds in a conveniently located submenu, and of course you can't assigne custom key modifiers to those menus for ease of navigation..
Also pray do tell which command-C you need to press to achieve this:
> (cycle) rename file full name/name/extension
There are also a few non-keybinding-related things in the list which you've conveniently ignored
> Don't close your mind to new knowledge and it might just get interested!
Please be respectful in these conversations—I’m interested in hearing more about this, but the comments you’ve been making are emotionally charged.
I’m interested to hear what file manager you’re using because it sounds like you’d hate Explorer, Nautilus, and Thunar too. Sorry for repeating the question—but I’m not going to accuse you of “conveniently ignoring” the question. Accusing someone of conveniently ignoring a question is, I don’t know, at best just rude. Don’t do that.
I know that there are things that Finder is not good at, that’s fine by me. What baffles me is the comparison with Windows Explorer, and that’s why I responded, and that’s the context for my comments. If you have a comparison with a specific other file manager in mind I’d like to hear it.
You spend more time saying you're interested than on discussing the topic of interest! And if you care about respect, don't start by trivializing the the argument
> but I’m not going to accuse you of “conveniently ignoring” the question.
You just have, though in a worse "passive aggressive" way that's harder to address, but also in a way that doesn't even make sense - how is focusing only on features, not apps, "convenient" for me??? It was for you because otherwise your defense of Finder doesn't work.
Also it's not just one app (though primarily the list is based on Opus), some of the improvements are sprinkled across different file manager, like on Mac Marta (while being rather incomplete) has a few things I miss when using Finder.
You also don't seem to know how hate sounds, I don't hate either of those apps (not even Finder). Why are you emotionally charging the conversation?
> What baffles me is the comparison with Windows Explorer
Then talk to the people doing the comparison! I'm not one of them, I've responded to a different point.
> For my use cases, I am often sorting through large quantities of media files, so I value things like column view and Quicklook.
And one of the points I raised in my comparison that is not a fake "but Cmd-C is the same as C" is the ability to customize UI to give more space to your precious media files, especially when you add various columns that have media information that can be blank or very long!
Or if you value quicklook you might be interested in an embedded alternative that doesn't obscure the file list by always popping in the center instead of a dedicated panel. Or the that doesn't reset zoom on file change. Or the one that does resize whitespace to only fit the image. Or the one that doesn't waste your time and mess with your focus with animations.
There is, of course, an endless list of deficiencies behind any serious workflow in Finder with better alternatives in other apps
> Copy without extension is enter, command-C.
Nice try, but no. That's two commands, which means you can't use a better key bind, but also the second command fails if the first one does, which it does, for example, in admin folders
>Full path 95% of the time, I am pasting into the Terminal, and so I drag it in, and the t
Besides having no option for the other 5% of the time, this also fails in shells using different escaping mechanism, and even in bashes it uses the ugliest escape mechanism of adding visual noise of \ for every space. Quoting was mentioned for a reason!
Also dragging instead of C, Cmd-V is a big ergonomic failure
Lastly, I don't think that's Finder that's doing the substandard escaping
Your list seems very preference-shaped, not pointing to actually-missing features I can see. You could make a case about discoverability, but it's hard to see how letter combinations that only work within one application and no others are easily memorized. If your habits mean you spend a lot of time working with files in a UI, then memorizing double-tap C and C+F might be easy for you. Otherwise, using the same Cmd+C and Opt+Cmd+C would have the benefit of doing what it does in nearly every other program. Or, as the other responder said, dragging auto-escapes appropriately.
I spend most of my time using a CLI, and I'm not claiming Finder is the best keyboard-driven file manager out there, but I will say that it's consistent, and works the way macOS works. Key combos work the way they work in every app, and holding down Opt updates the Edit menu to make it clear what would be different. You can do the most common things pretty easily and clearly, even if sometimes you have to use a mouse and right-click. There are also third-party apps for focused file management for pros, including some that use tuis, like ranger.
> Opt+Cmd+C would have the benefit of doing what it does in nearly every other program
So what do you think it does in Preview? In TextEdit? Are you not aware that you imaginary benefit doesn't exist even in the system default open file Finder window where you can't copy file path?
> Finder is fine: not the best, not the worst.
Very astute observation relevant to none of the things being discussed.
> Your list seems very preference-shaped, not pointing to actually-missing features I can see
Look closer! Besides that hard to say what you missed because you haven't said anything specific
For example, what is "preference-shaped" about this missing feature
> turn column view into a flat list of all files at or below the current dir for easier search
> it's hard to see how letter combinations that only work within one application and no others are easily memorized
It's very easy to see if you don't ignore use cases and add extra conditions. Like why does it universally have to be easy?? I mean, it doesn't even have to be easy for me, the extra convenience might be worth the effort of having to remember it
> might be easy for you. Otherwise
What do you mean "otherwise"? Why would you care about others to the detriment of your own ease?
> and holding down Opt updates the Edit menu
What does this have to do with anything? You can retain the visual updates of these menus even if you use sequence of keys! Press C and the copy command menu expands into a submenu of what you could copy next (path, extension, name). You'll retain your consistency at a higher ergonomic baseline for Finder, nothing stops the improvements here
> Or, as the other responder said, dragging auto-escapes appropriately.
And as I've replied there, it doesn't do that "appropriately"
> third-party apps for focused file management for pros
But that's exactly what I said!
> differentiate a real pro file manager from the toy of Finder
Imo tech companies want people to be as tech-illiterate as possible. Tech illiterate people will not realise how the tech company did extra work to make their product less capable and less empowering to the user in favour of being more beneficial and empowering to the tech company itself.
Obfuscating the file system has been a popular move in this regard. A file system is so elegant and empowering and useful for so many tasks, of course they want to hide it.
A file system, especially a local one, invites interoperability and control over one's data. Hiding this from users makes it more difficult for them to have that control, and now they have to rely on the application vendor to do in a proprietary way, what would otherwise be a simple file operation.
You greybeard wannabes all have a serious problem: you think tech is made for you and for you alone.
Once computers became accessible beyond the hobbyist, enthusiast or professional it became a necessity to guarantee that those people that click on anything they are told to click cannot break their computers simply working the file explorar app.
It’s not a bug. It’s a feature.
You can still do whatever you want with your file system. Except that if you want to break into it and mess with it, you have to actually know what you are doing.
People who were not hobbyists learned to use computers, in large numbers, so I don't think your conclusion is accurate. Anyone can learn this stuff with a bare minimum of effort.
Computers don't have to have file systems. The history of personal computing has had more time with file systems being hidden, than with them being visible, and if you weight by the number of users, over 90%.
What do you mean by "see the file system?" It's not exactly hard to enable in Finder. In Finder's settings, one can have the root directory, home directory, etc. enabled in the sidebar. Not to mention, one can easily drag & drop common folders into the sidebar too.
Those settings with the hierarchy view makes seeing the file system quite clear in my opinion.
So I’m in Microsoft Word. I hit the open file button and get the finder chooser window thing. I want to go up one level.
How??
I’m sure there’s some magical key combination to do it but I can never remember it.
That’s the first thing I can think off atop my head.
I’ve never played in Finder settings. Do I have to do that to get something useable? I didn’t even know it had settings it doesn’t seem like the sort of app that should.
I agree 100%. Been using macs for 15 years now, but the windows XP explorer in particular was fundamentally objectively better than finder, and it's nuts they haven't figured it out.
One of the things I find most baffling is that in order to "go to a folder by path" (e.g. ~) you have to hit command-shift-G ? What kind of hidden witchcraft is this?
It feels like it was designed for people who cannot understand a directory structure. But even that is done poorly, because it's not particularly useful. That said, this kepter thing looks pretty bad too.
Change to `false` to reverse it. You have to `killall Finder` or force quit it for each to take effect.
Also, Shift-Command-. (dot) in Finder. You can find a lot of useful settings that can be adjusted to your preferred mode digging through this repo (not affiliated): https://github.com/mathiasbynens/dotfiles
When I started using a Mac many years ago, I also could not believe had terrible Finder is. This is software from the "design" company.
One of the biggest pitfalls I ran into at the time (and remember from the top of my head) was that when you copy a folder, and a folder with the same name already exists at the destination, it will quietly replace it, rather than giving me a dialog asking if I want to Replace or Merge.
Oh, that I can't switch on/off show hidden files, I have to run some command line command...
Of course MacOS asks you what you want to do when you copy over a folder and has done so forever. The keyboard shortcut to show hidden files has been mentioned already (it's even a logical one for once in Apple-Land) and the terminal command is straightforward and logical as well. Should they include a perma-toggle in the UI as well? I, personally, think yes but I also think it's pretty consistent with a certain approach to UI design to not include said button.
But not changed enough, I can't merge everything from the top, I can only do that whenever the first Mergeable conflict appears, but there could be a bunch more of conflicts with Replace option only
To Apple, files are an unsightly thing they need to sweep under the carpet, if you have to interact with files they probably believe they’ve done something wrong.
Look at Apple Mail, they used to bury attachments behind a button and even now they just drop them at the end of the email.
Ignorance of how computers work is a moat. One that Apple influenced the entire industry to adopt.
Same reason the Church didn't want to translate the Bible into the vernacular. If you can read the Bible you don't need a priest, or at the least you can evaluate your priest knowledgeably and decide to go to a different one.
As a dos/windows/linux users my whole life, I got asked by some family a few years back to get photos off of a mac from a deceased family member. I pulled off everything I could find, but I was never sure I actually found everything because I basically had to just search for different image types, but had no real way to browse to actual folders where things were stored.
It's a Unix system under the fancy UI. Of course there are folders and of course you can go to them. You can also grep in the terminal or whatever you are used to do from Linux to your heart's content.
Personally, I think the representation of the directory tree in Linux and MacOS is equally jarring for a person who has grown up with DOS and Windows. It certainly was for me when I peeked my hat out of Bill-Gates-Land as a teenager.
Coming from Windows, what's outrageous about Finder, is that when I'm looking at a SMB share has is named the same as a local directory, it is very confusing as to which location is which. Scary. Like, show the full path! Not "Folder" at the top. Just crazy.
This looks cool, but my least favorite things about Finder are not actually related to finding things. I prefer column mode, but:
1. When I right click, I can't create a new file of any kind. I can create a new folder—sometimes (see the next point).
2. If the folder is full, it's virtually impossible to right-click an empty spot to create a new folder. You have to scroll all the way to the top/bottom and right click the very narrow spot between the folder and the header/footer.
Finder is fucking dire. I spend more time on the terminal.
The vertical column mode is useless as file names are always too long. It forces you to drag and drop and open loads of windows rather than cut and paste via menus. Open vs rename is fucked up. Half the machine is hidden initially. Hiding file extensions is just broken. Every view seems to forget what state it’s in. The file copying and continue copying thing fucks up network drives. cp is actually an order of magnitude faster. The icons at the top are shit. All the keyboard shortcuts require mutant hands that only emacs users have. The trash can semantics of “put back” are just crap. It crashes at least once a day for me. I could go on for days.
Thanks for this. I'll give it a try, though I'm not someone who experiences much frustration with Finder, because I maintain a solid folder structure, and use Alfred (first) for virtually all file interactions.
The deciders for me, in case you're interested:
- Privacy. It doesn't look like you are trying to get my data. I'll be using network monitoring to verify.
- Automatically groups like files, regardless of file location. Yes, I know I can do this manually with tags, but I... don't.
- Polish. The screenshots make it look like a native interface. Bonus points if I can set it to hide until mouseover, like my dock bar.
I'm most curious about how it will function alongside Dropbox, particularly with cloud-stored files. I have several times my HDD in Dropbox (largely in folders shared with me); I know Keptor won't be able to read stub files, but if it greedily downloads and fills up my HDD it'll be an instant day-killer and uninstall. If it reads on-device files, and then stores a sparse representation so it can still present them in a list once they've been removed to the cloud it'll be great; I will manually sync and de-sync some folders to get them into the data. (If it incrementally syncs cloud files to my device, reads them, and then pushes them back up it'd be amazing, and I'll buy a lifetime license immediately - but I'm not sure those permissions exist.)
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[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 27.5 ms ] threadFinder is by far the worst file manager ever created.
The (hard) problem is that almost every finder alternative/add-on I've tried is someone else's ideal workflow that still doesn't sit well with me. I find KDE's Dolphin similarly frustrating - for very similar reasons.
Both work marginally better (for me) when used in concert with the quick-find tools like Alfred (or Spotlight) and KRunner. None of these are perfect.
Showerthought: maybe the "find files" interfaces aren't the worst offenders; maybe it's the "place files" workflows that are problematic and we're trying to solve the wrong problem?
And then we have the spotlight deamon processes which seem to exist only to burn earth's precious resources.
But when it works it works great. ymmv
I've had to use Finder, and it's definitely frustrating in a "Think Different" sort of way, but this article doesn't actually mention why beyond vague statements.
Here's a concrete one: Enter enters rename mode.
I can make the apologetics for just about anything in macOS. After over 20 years of using OS X/macOS, I still can't make the case for this one. Imagine a button has focus, you hit Enter, and it allows you to change the text on the button instead of executing the code behind button.click(). That behavior is just as dumb if a file has focus in Finder.
When they released the Macintosh to the world, Andy Hertzfeld realized that people were renaming items in the Finder by accident; so he added the "return" key (already used to confirm actions) as an "arming" step[1].
Now, one might ask: wouldn't that interrupt people navigating via the keyboard? No, because the original Macintosh didn't have arrow keys on the keyboard. This was an intentional choice—or, perhaps, mandate from Jobs—as a way to get users to use the mouse as their primary input device, and to force developers to create mouse-driven interfaces. With no arrow keys, no typeahead search implemented, and a clean slate for designing an interface, I'm guessing using Return to open a file wasn't a strong consideration at the time.
Why wasn't it changed? Because Mac OS X was made for Mac users, and we all have muscle memory dating back decades :P
[1]: https://www.folklore.org/A_Floppy_named_lsadkfjalhkjh.html
However, the very next keyboard they designed did have them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Macintosh_Plus_Exte...
I can't imagine editing text on a keyboard with no arrow keys to be any better than the horrible experience of doing it on a mobile device... which might be why Apple decided to add them quite early in the history of the Mac.
But these are complaints. The right answer is to see if I can build a file explorer for MacOS that behaves in the fashion I desire.
The Risc OS filer remains king, largely because managing windows on Risc OS is much more tolerable.
With that aside, this is a great idea for most files. Of course my images are still in folders with the projects they belong to, but my life photos are in one stream. Files, contacts, a lot of data would benefit greatly from this visualization.
As for people with 1000 files on their desktop, who cares, they are as good as hoarders and they get what it comes to them. Discipline helps both in the real and in the digital world.
"Stream" photo libraries of people who take pictures for work know this issue all too well: there's a lot of junk mixed with their personal photos. What if we had... folders: one personal and one for work or per customer.
This went into a direction I didn't expect at all.
Does anyone else experience this? Like it freezes when searching for programs?
I simply don't understand how Apple has the reputation it has.
I assume it'll be a couple of years before Asahi is an option for my machine.
What you could do instead is just set up your favorite Linux distro in an arm64 VM and run it with UTM (qemu wrapper). Works nearly flawlessly! I connect it to an external monitor and keyboard and can't believe it's not a Linux box most of the day. They even got Vulkan (almost) working now.
Here's a more detailed experience report from another user of such setup: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42541508 https://blog.disintegrator.dev/posts/dev-virtual-machine/
MacOS's current Finder dates from 2001. Earlier versions of "Finder" were a completely different piece of software - different code, different interface, different UI metaphor. File manager software predating it:
All of the above interfaces share the same interface lineage as Mac OS, lying as they all do downstream of Xerox PARC. And all have converged on the same interface principles - visible path, a button to ascend to the parent directory, etc.Everyone who comes to Finder from anywhere else complains. Finder is weird for the sake of being weird.
Why would they ignore all the lessons learned between 1984 and 2001?
That's the reason why most people complain about Finder today.
Finder is terrible, but I switched for Forklift early on. I think it's amazing, so much better than the Gnome and KDE file managers I used before. It covers so many bases, from being a twin-pane orthodox manager, directory comparer and synchroniser, bulk regex renamer, etc. Handles local directories as well as remote ones via SFTP, WebDAV, S3, Google Drive, SMB, NFS, etc. And switching to Alfred was a real pleasure. I could see where Gnome Do took inspiration from, but it's a pale imitation. I also installed iTerm2 early on, and I use it to this day. Easily the best fit terminal for my purposes.
I see people justify their Mac purchases this way all the time, but IMO it's just cope and not their actual primary reason for making that decision. I've never seen where the math actually worked out where the price/performance actually made Apple made sense.
Windows was bad but at least Explorer (windows 10 version anyway) let you easily SEE the file system
I’m sure as hell not buying a subscription project to fix that though lololol
Simple to use until you need it to be complicated, then it probably does what you’re looking for.
Not just Dolphin is among the best in class.
I have been a hardcore Konqueror user back in the days. Early dolphin felt like a back step. Nowadays, thought, it easily outshines Konqueror. I still miss a few KIOs which were showcased in Konqueror. I guess they were discontinued.
I honestly think it is a matter of what you like rather than what is good or bad.
Once internal muscle memory is established, the usability problems can be easily dismissed; but for the rest of us, who got used to better file managers, Finder is atrocious.
As a Windows user in the 90s, Linux user in the 2000s, and Mac user since the 2010s, I dread the moments when I have to use Finder.
Finder has column view and quicklook. If there’s something that I’m missing out on from, say, Explorer or Thunar or whatever, I’d love to hear it. Whenever I have to sort through a lot of files on Linux or Windows, I get a better experience by exporting a SMB share and sorting on a Mac.
The only file managers that I’ve used that felt competitive with the Mac are tools like Midnight Commander (or the original Norton version).
But also I can use JK to navigate down/up instead of moving my hand of their resting positions to the cursor.
And NM you jump faster by 5 files.
And the ability to change shortcuts easily
And the ability to use double tap C to copy file name, and tap C then tap F to copy full file path.
And turn column view into a flat list of all files at or below the current dir for easier search
And instant search (with the help of Everything) limited to the current dir+children, shown in the same file manager list with the same navigation option
And the ability to tap Cmd-R multiple files to select rename file full name/name/extension
And the ability to autoreplace illegal filesystem file chars with my own alternative to preserve those Divide/Rule common document names
And the ability to automatically control how much space a column is wasting.
Etc., a million of other things that differentiate a real pro file manager from the toy of Finder
Things like, “In a Real Pro file manager, you can double-tap C to copy a filename, but in Finder, you have to press command-C.” Do you see why I’m a little disappointed by this list?
I’m interested to hear what file manager you’re using because it sounds like you’d hate Explorer, Nautilus, and Thunar too.
> but in Finder, you have to press command-C.” Do you see why I’m a little disappointed by this list?
Sure I do, you're doing the lazy cut. The original quote was:
> double tap C to copy file name, and tap C then tap F to copy full file path.
And of course you can't do that in Finder, that's just nonsense. Now also add a few more actions: copy file name without the extension, copy the extension, copy full path quoted for pasting in your terminal - and
A. You've run out of keys and modifiers, and definitely out of memory to remember which action does what
B. C. D. It's actually not trivial to extend Finder in this way, and of course you can't easily change the keybinds, and of course you can't group those keybinds in a conveniently located submenu, and of course you can't assigne custom key modifiers to those menus for ease of navigation..
Also pray do tell which command-C you need to press to achieve this:
> (cycle) rename file full name/name/extension
There are also a few non-keybinding-related things in the list which you've conveniently ignored
Please be respectful in these conversations—I’m interested in hearing more about this, but the comments you’ve been making are emotionally charged.
I’m interested to hear what file manager you’re using because it sounds like you’d hate Explorer, Nautilus, and Thunar too. Sorry for repeating the question—but I’m not going to accuse you of “conveniently ignoring” the question. Accusing someone of conveniently ignoring a question is, I don’t know, at best just rude. Don’t do that.
I know that there are things that Finder is not good at, that’s fine by me. What baffles me is the comparison with Windows Explorer, and that’s why I responded, and that’s the context for my comments. If you have a comparison with a specific other file manager in mind I’d like to hear it.
> but I’m not going to accuse you of “conveniently ignoring” the question.
You just have, though in a worse "passive aggressive" way that's harder to address, but also in a way that doesn't even make sense - how is focusing only on features, not apps, "convenient" for me??? It was for you because otherwise your defense of Finder doesn't work. Also it's not just one app (though primarily the list is based on Opus), some of the improvements are sprinkled across different file manager, like on Mac Marta (while being rather incomplete) has a few things I miss when using Finder.
You also don't seem to know how hate sounds, I don't hate either of those apps (not even Finder). Why are you emotionally charging the conversation?
> What baffles me is the comparison with Windows Explorer
Then talk to the people doing the comparison! I'm not one of them, I've responded to a different point.
> For my use cases, I am often sorting through large quantities of media files, so I value things like column view and Quicklook.
And one of the points I raised in my comparison that is not a fake "but Cmd-C is the same as C" is the ability to customize UI to give more space to your precious media files, especially when you add various columns that have media information that can be blank or very long!
Or if you value quicklook you might be interested in an embedded alternative that doesn't obscure the file list by always popping in the center instead of a dedicated panel. Or the that doesn't reset zoom on file change. Or the one that does resize whitespace to only fit the image. Or the one that doesn't waste your time and mess with your focus with animations.
There is, of course, an endless list of deficiencies behind any serious workflow in Finder with better alternatives in other apps
> Copy without extension is enter, command-C.
Nice try, but no. That's two commands, which means you can't use a better key bind, but also the second command fails if the first one does, which it does, for example, in admin folders
>Full path 95% of the time, I am pasting into the Terminal, and so I drag it in, and the t
Besides having no option for the other 5% of the time, this also fails in shells using different escaping mechanism, and even in bashes it uses the ugliest escape mechanism of adding visual noise of \ for every space. Quoting was mentioned for a reason! Also dragging instead of C, Cmd-V is a big ergonomic failure
Lastly, I don't think that's Finder that's doing the substandard escaping
Your list seems very preference-shaped, not pointing to actually-missing features I can see. You could make a case about discoverability, but it's hard to see how letter combinations that only work within one application and no others are easily memorized. If your habits mean you spend a lot of time working with files in a UI, then memorizing double-tap C and C+F might be easy for you. Otherwise, using the same Cmd+C and Opt+Cmd+C would have the benefit of doing what it does in nearly every other program. Or, as the other responder said, dragging auto-escapes appropriately.
I spend most of my time using a CLI, and I'm not claiming Finder is the best keyboard-driven file manager out there, but I will say that it's consistent, and works the way macOS works. Key combos work the way they work in every app, and holding down Opt updates the Edit menu to make it clear what would be different. You can do the most common things pretty easily and clearly, even if sometimes you have to use a mouse and right-click. There are also third-party apps for focused file management for pros, including some that use tuis, like ranger.
Yeah, it shows.
> Opt+Cmd+C would have the benefit of doing what it does in nearly every other program
So what do you think it does in Preview? In TextEdit? Are you not aware that you imaginary benefit doesn't exist even in the system default open file Finder window where you can't copy file path?
> Finder is fine: not the best, not the worst.
Very astute observation relevant to none of the things being discussed.
> Your list seems very preference-shaped, not pointing to actually-missing features I can see
Look closer! Besides that hard to say what you missed because you haven't said anything specific
For example, what is "preference-shaped" about this missing feature
> turn column view into a flat list of all files at or below the current dir for easier search
> it's hard to see how letter combinations that only work within one application and no others are easily memorized
It's very easy to see if you don't ignore use cases and add extra conditions. Like why does it universally have to be easy?? I mean, it doesn't even have to be easy for me, the extra convenience might be worth the effort of having to remember it
> might be easy for you. Otherwise
What do you mean "otherwise"? Why would you care about others to the detriment of your own ease?
> and holding down Opt updates the Edit menu
What does this have to do with anything? You can retain the visual updates of these menus even if you use sequence of keys! Press C and the copy command menu expands into a submenu of what you could copy next (path, extension, name). You'll retain your consistency at a higher ergonomic baseline for Finder, nothing stops the improvements here
> Or, as the other responder said, dragging auto-escapes appropriately.
And as I've replied there, it doesn't do that "appropriately"
> third-party apps for focused file management for pros
But that's exactly what I said!
> differentiate a real pro file manager from the toy of Finder
Obfuscating the file system has been a popular move in this regard. A file system is so elegant and empowering and useful for so many tasks, of course they want to hide it.
Once computers became accessible beyond the hobbyist, enthusiast or professional it became a necessity to guarantee that those people that click on anything they are told to click cannot break their computers simply working the file explorar app.
It’s not a bug. It’s a feature.
You can still do whatever you want with your file system. Except that if you want to break into it and mess with it, you have to actually know what you are doing.
Those settings with the hierarchy view makes seeing the file system quite clear in my opinion.
How??
I’m sure there’s some magical key combination to do it but I can never remember it.
That’s the first thing I can think off atop my head.
I’ve never played in Finder settings. Do I have to do that to get something useable? I didn’t even know it had settings it doesn’t seem like the sort of app that should.
In the Finder, look at the 'Go' menu, all those keyboard shortcuts works everywhere the file open/save window is displayed.
Like Command+Shift+D for Desktop, Command+Shift+O for Documents.
``` src ├── app │ └── page.tsx └── components └── header.tsx ```
EDIT: Lol. I'm not even going to edit it. Hacker News, you also suck.
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/mac-help/mchldaafb302/...
FWIW, this is clear in the "help" link by the textarea.
One of the things I find most baffling is that in order to "go to a folder by path" (e.g. ~) you have to hit command-shift-G ? What kind of hidden witchcraft is this?
It feels like it was designed for people who cannot understand a directory structure. But even that is done poorly, because it's not particularly useful. That said, this kepter thing looks pretty bad too.
> defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles -bool true
Change to `false` to reverse it. You have to `killall Finder` or force quit it for each to take effect.
Also, Shift-Command-. (dot) in Finder. You can find a lot of useful settings that can be adjusted to your preferred mode digging through this repo (not affiliated): https://github.com/mathiasbynens/dotfiles
One of the biggest pitfalls I ran into at the time (and remember from the top of my head) was that when you copy a folder, and a folder with the same name already exists at the destination, it will quietly replace it, rather than giving me a dialog asking if I want to Replace or Merge.
Oh, that I can't switch on/off show hidden files, I have to run some command line command...
Finder is full of these kinds of hidden secrets.
You can also hold Option while stopping a folder to get an additional Merge button, but at least one folder needs to have unique items.
But MacOS keyboard shortcuts have always been undiscoverable unless they were part of the menu, which is a problem.
This will toggle hidden files.
Look at Apple Mail, they used to bury attachments behind a button and even now they just drop them at the end of the email.
Same reason the Church didn't want to translate the Bible into the vernacular. If you can read the Bible you don't need a priest, or at the least you can evaluate your priest knowledgeably and decide to go to a different one.
So it's wrong to be power user using mac.
Personally, I think the representation of the directory tree in Linux and MacOS is equally jarring for a person who has grown up with DOS and Windows. It certainly was for me when I peeked my hat out of Bill-Gates-Land as a teenager.
1. When I right click, I can't create a new file of any kind. I can create a new folder—sometimes (see the next point).
2. If the folder is full, it's virtually impossible to right-click an empty spot to create a new folder. You have to scroll all the way to the top/bottom and right click the very narrow spot between the folder and the header/footer.
The vertical column mode is useless as file names are always too long. It forces you to drag and drop and open loads of windows rather than cut and paste via menus. Open vs rename is fucked up. Half the machine is hidden initially. Hiding file extensions is just broken. Every view seems to forget what state it’s in. The file copying and continue copying thing fucks up network drives. cp is actually an order of magnitude faster. The icons at the top are shit. All the keyboard shortcuts require mutant hands that only emacs users have. The trash can semantics of “put back” are just crap. It crashes at least once a day for me. I could go on for days.
Windows 10 is notably better.
The deciders for me, in case you're interested:
- Privacy. It doesn't look like you are trying to get my data. I'll be using network monitoring to verify.
- Automatically groups like files, regardless of file location. Yes, I know I can do this manually with tags, but I... don't.
- Polish. The screenshots make it look like a native interface. Bonus points if I can set it to hide until mouseover, like my dock bar.
I'm most curious about how it will function alongside Dropbox, particularly with cloud-stored files. I have several times my HDD in Dropbox (largely in folders shared with me); I know Keptor won't be able to read stub files, but if it greedily downloads and fills up my HDD it'll be an instant day-killer and uninstall. If it reads on-device files, and then stores a sparse representation so it can still present them in a list once they've been removed to the cloud it'll be great; I will manually sync and de-sync some folders to get them into the data. (If it incrementally syncs cloud files to my device, reads them, and then pushes them back up it'd be amazing, and I'll buy a lifetime license immediately - but I'm not sure those permissions exist.)