I graduated from high school around 2010. Information has been free my entire life. My college campus connected me with people who were in a similar place in life. We were trying to find a place we could contribute, and were uncertain about the future. Uncertain of how we fit in. Instructor quality varied, as I'm sure it always does, but even the weaker professors were seen as our leaders in that uncertain time. They all coached us to listen to ourselves, and to suit our strengths. I felt a presence on my college campuses.
I don't know why colleges get so much hate. My college wasn't a party school and yet I remember that time in my life very fondly. I couldn't have achieved what I did without college.
I completely agree and always disliked the "college is a waste of time," that's made the rounds by everyone from Thiel to the Iced Coffee Hour(?!). There is value in having a space where people at the same stage of life spend a concerted effort on learning and self development, and it's just a shame that in the 21st century that realistically college-as-vocational-training and the cost of college have muddled what should be a pretty idealistic environment. Perhaps I'm naive.
Even before the internet, a determined person could learn about anything at a library. It's been a long time since a university has been strictly necessary for that. Today, at least at the undergrad level, universities function as a job screen for people who can dedicate themselves to an academic program and complete it, providing practical experiences in labs, internships, and clinical settings that an individual cannot really do for himself, and also for meeting people and starting to build a network.
The libraries I know of have inter-library loan where you can borrow a book from any library in their network. I got a Real Analysis book this way (no way my local library would have that).
If they have a budget, they would certainly buy books on request. As a teen I got my local city library to acquire copies of The White Book (K&R), SICP, Stevens' TCP/IP Illustrated, UNIX System Administration Handbook, and many more. Unfortunately, those books were all "culled" for lack of use. Since the start of COVID, tho, I've put in many requests and they now have (embarrassingly) many current, and hopefully long relevant, STEM books.
Nowadays, I concede that online collections and inter-library loans of books are great (discoverability can be an issue), but still some library out there has to actually own the copies or the online rights (which are more expensive in the long run).
> Even before the internet, a determined person could learn about anything at a library. It's been a long time since a university has been strictly necessary for that
That completely overlooks some things
- Most people are _not_ that determined and need something to help them stay focused and committed to your goals.
- Learning the material is only one part - having someone guide you through _what_ to learn is very beneficial
- Taking time off life (work, etc) in order to do that learning isn't that easy. "Going to college" is a lot easier to explain/fund then "taking some me time for 3 years"
>> a determined person could learn about anything at a library.
A determined person could read about anything at a library. Learning takes more than reading. Certainly nobody could become any sort of medical doctor without practical training. But even the most bookish of programs still require one to stop reading, put down the book and actually write something. If you are writing something you need someone better than you to read and judge it. That requires access to better-educated people in your chosen field. THAT is what universities offer beyond a library.
It's not like universities exhaustively assess their students' skills and provide detailed feedback on everything. You only get occasional spot checks of random pieces of knowledge or select procedures students are expected to perform. Since you don't know what knowledge will be checked, you have to memorize all of it. Since you don't know which procedures you'll be asked to perform, you have to practice all of them. That's an accountability mechanism, not something you can rely on as your primary source of feedback.
If you're determined enough to not need an external accountability mechanism, you can write for nobody in particular and use comparison with the reference material to get feedback.
A solid group of peers can also provide that. Think of The Recurse Center[1] in NYC, or a hackerspace like Noisebridge[2], or, maybe, a local interest group on meetup.com. I'm sure many people just find it at work.
For something like Math, tho, you certainly can teach yourself to a high level. (By working lots of problems)
Not in the developing world though and not in fields where practical knowledge matters more (that is still true today although simulations and self research help a lot)
I don't know about "before the Internet", but the physical stacks in most libraries are in rather sorry shape these days.
I've been to my city's single branch, and I've been to the Central Library in Phoenix, and I really couldn't find much at all to sink my teeth into.
I was particularly interested in history: history of my state/city, and history of Pennsylvania. There was distinctly very little "history of other states" to be had anywhere, and while there is a great archive of history that is technically open to the public, its security policy was so restrictive, that I couldn't just wander in there during a regular visit.
There simply isn't anything about technical subjects. You couldn't teach yourself car repair, or computer programming, or rocket science. A lot of books are, like, recipe and cooking books; books for people with hobbies like sewing or knitting; books for people seeking work or trying to pay their taxes. A lot of practical, basic information for the kind of people who can't purchase books at bookstores.
The university libraries are a cut above, of course. My local university has several branches, including a dedicated engineering library. You could probably learn a lot from those. But they also carried (25 years ago) the Rig Vedas, novels from Robert Heinlein and Kurt Vonnegut, and a lot of really old books that wouldn't teach you anything practical.
No, actual learning often requires human interaction and a systematic approach from a curriculum. There is no substitute for top-notch teachers, who are the best resources, and know how to stimulate learning in students.
Anyway, most people are wary of public libraries in the 21st century. Sad to say that most have become de facto homeless shelters, and the sheer number of smelly, middle-aged men with mental illness can effectively scare away nearly all single women and families with children.
I spent some time in Phoenix as a teen and thought the Central Phoenix Library was outstanding. I found many excellent books from the '80s,'90s, and '00s on computer engineering, programming, system administration, and networking (often the older ones were much better). My favorite was a huge back catalog of Byte magazine with all kinds of amazing articles.
It's a sad state of affairs, but public libraries used to be, and still can be, excellent. Of course, great university libraries are on another level and I cherish them greatly. See my old comments.
SFPL[1] is a standout (particularly for their online collection), and see Link+[2] for physical books delivered throughout California.
Do submit purchase requests for new titles that you want to read and think would have an audience. I've gotten my local public library to buy several dozen books on all kinds of topics. They are now shared throughout the state. Although, with access to such a large collection of works, the local town library has grown reticent to acquiring new titles, but they're still growing their collection and fulfilling requests.
I disagree about the requirement for "top-notch teachers" for learning (though they are often motivated to open doors for you..). I had none, but a lot of time to myself. I followed my curiosity through reading books and journals, and it lead me to a group of very savvy peers (some of whom would meet every first Friday) where I found all the stimulation I could want. HackerNews is a very direct continuation of that, which I've been reading for far longer than the birth of this account.
No mentors required. Just seek challenges to slay for your own satisfaction and repeat.
(and start or join a community. it pays dividends.)
I should say, tho, that both of my parents worked at a great university before I was born (tho neither had degrees themselves) and I spent a lot of time there in my youth -- visiting the library and bookstore, touring labs, hanging out at cafes, and attending events and public lectures. Universities and the campuses themselves are wonderful places to be and to spend time.
Sounds like intelligent, effective planning, and I wish India the best of luck. Unfortunately, it will likely never happen in the US, due to entrenched interests, anti-education attitudes, and economic challenges -- not that the country as a whole couldn't afford it, but funds for higher education are being siphoned into private pockets.
IMO a lot of kids now experience their adolescence in college, not in high school. High school kids focus so much on activities and schoolwork, they don’t get the same social experiences they used to in high school. Now they get it in college.
Which also is interesting because what does this mean for non college bound people?
> High school kids focus so much on activities and schoolwork
College-bound high school kids do.
High school kids who will be going into trades or are just not college-bound will do school activities if it interests them, or they will have part-time jobs, or maybe just coast into whatever happens.
I learned a lot in college, but living with people my age really helped me socially. I went from a shy nerd who could not make eye contact to the "life of the party" (still a nerd though).
my anecdote is i struggled to relate to my peers in college but my early jobs and housemates post-college helped me much more socially than college did. i guess my friends and i did much better with tangible stakes
college gave me a skill i often discount: the ability to collaboratively communicate knowledge in a group project setting. its so secondhand that i only noticed much later in life i honed that skill in college
The primary business value of a university will likely be signaling competence which, ironically, they are in a good position to establish with old school infrastructure like pen-on-paper tests.
The primary social value of a university will be providing a stimulating intellectual environment, which they should get back to doing.
This is a ridiculous take. University isn't the gatekeeper for information, it's a place where learning and academic study happen; these are separate dimensions of the broader concept of knowledge.
Teaching people how to think critically, how to contextualize information (both notionally as well as concretely within a given field of study), and how to develop new ideas within a field (both solo and collaboratively) have always been the value add; I say this as a university dropout who didn't appreciate this at the time.
Independent learning will only go so far if you don't know the questions to ask, and that's something you get through sustained exposure to an environment that nurtures that.
I'll mention as well that rolling back learning institutions is a very dangerous line of argument, especially in the age of misinformation, disinformation, and pervasive news-as-entertainment leading to both societal divisions and the erosion of critical thinking.
It's very possible to go through an undergrad program and not learn how to think critically, how to contextualize information, and how to develop new ideas. General liberal-arts elective requirements are supposed to inculcate that but the students who view college as "job training" will be focused on learning practical knowledge and skills in their career interest areas.
Idk maybe depends on what you study or what your college campus offers. But for my case studying EE, getting access to expensive lab equipments and also being able to network with companies looking to hire juniors makes it quite valuable to me.
Yes, practical experience in a field that requires expensive equipment or tools is hard or impossible to do on your own. School and/or apprenticeships are pretty necessary for that.
This is so obvious to anyone with two working braincells and an idea of what colleges and universities are that I have to imagine the people writing these articles must have attended the lowest quality degree mill possible because they couldn't even cut it at legitimate institution.
66 comments
[ 0.19 ms ] story [ 16.1 ms ] threadhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZN4r8p6KbU
Building relationships.
Right now you can learn hardest things, while on flight or in some remote area, crazy difference
Nowadays, I concede that online collections and inter-library loans of books are great (discoverability can be an issue), but still some library out there has to actually own the copies or the online rights (which are more expensive in the long run).
That completely overlooks some things
- Most people are _not_ that determined and need something to help them stay focused and committed to your goals.
- Learning the material is only one part - having someone guide you through _what_ to learn is very beneficial
- Taking time off life (work, etc) in order to do that learning isn't that easy. "Going to college" is a lot easier to explain/fund then "taking some me time for 3 years"
A determined person could read about anything at a library. Learning takes more than reading. Certainly nobody could become any sort of medical doctor without practical training. But even the most bookish of programs still require one to stop reading, put down the book and actually write something. If you are writing something you need someone better than you to read and judge it. That requires access to better-educated people in your chosen field. THAT is what universities offer beyond a library.
If you're determined enough to not need an external accountability mechanism, you can write for nobody in particular and use comparison with the reference material to get feedback.
For something like Math, tho, you certainly can teach yourself to a high level. (By working lots of problems)
[1]: https://www.recurse.com/
[2]: https://www.noisebridge.net/
I've been to my city's single branch, and I've been to the Central Library in Phoenix, and I really couldn't find much at all to sink my teeth into.
I was particularly interested in history: history of my state/city, and history of Pennsylvania. There was distinctly very little "history of other states" to be had anywhere, and while there is a great archive of history that is technically open to the public, its security policy was so restrictive, that I couldn't just wander in there during a regular visit.
There simply isn't anything about technical subjects. You couldn't teach yourself car repair, or computer programming, or rocket science. A lot of books are, like, recipe and cooking books; books for people with hobbies like sewing or knitting; books for people seeking work or trying to pay their taxes. A lot of practical, basic information for the kind of people who can't purchase books at bookstores.
The university libraries are a cut above, of course. My local university has several branches, including a dedicated engineering library. You could probably learn a lot from those. But they also carried (25 years ago) the Rig Vedas, novels from Robert Heinlein and Kurt Vonnegut, and a lot of really old books that wouldn't teach you anything practical.
No, actual learning often requires human interaction and a systematic approach from a curriculum. There is no substitute for top-notch teachers, who are the best resources, and know how to stimulate learning in students.
Anyway, most people are wary of public libraries in the 21st century. Sad to say that most have become de facto homeless shelters, and the sheer number of smelly, middle-aged men with mental illness can effectively scare away nearly all single women and families with children.
It's a sad state of affairs, but public libraries used to be, and still can be, excellent. Of course, great university libraries are on another level and I cherish them greatly. See my old comments.
SFPL[1] is a standout (particularly for their online collection), and see Link+[2] for physical books delivered throughout California.
Do submit purchase requests for new titles that you want to read and think would have an audience. I've gotten my local public library to buy several dozen books on all kinds of topics. They are now shared throughout the state. Although, with access to such a large collection of works, the local town library has grown reticent to acquiring new titles, but they're still growing their collection and fulfilling requests.
[1]: https://sfpl.org/
[2]: https://linkencore.iii.com/
No mentors required. Just seek challenges to slay for your own satisfaction and repeat.
(and start or join a community. it pays dividends.)
One group (mostly students) believe it is a skills training facility, training for specific job skills for specific jobs.
Another group (mostly faculty) believes it is teaching people how to learn skills.
Students in the first group are always panicking about their jobs going away.
Students in the second group learn new skills quickly, and see opportunities when the world changes around them.
in between there are sweet, sweet fees
Which also is interesting because what does this mean for non college bound people?
College-bound high school kids do.
High school kids who will be going into trades or are just not college-bound will do school activities if it interests them, or they will have part-time jobs, or maybe just coast into whatever happens.
college gave me a skill i often discount: the ability to collaboratively communicate knowledge in a group project setting. its so secondhand that i only noticed much later in life i honed that skill in college
Of course, this is preposterous.
https://htmx.org/essays/universities-and-ai/
The primary business value of a university will likely be signaling competence which, ironically, they are in a good position to establish with old school infrastructure like pen-on-paper tests.
The primary social value of a university will be providing a stimulating intellectual environment, which they should get back to doing.
Teaching people how to think critically, how to contextualize information (both notionally as well as concretely within a given field of study), and how to develop new ideas within a field (both solo and collaboratively) have always been the value add; I say this as a university dropout who didn't appreciate this at the time.
Independent learning will only go so far if you don't know the questions to ask, and that's something you get through sustained exposure to an environment that nurtures that.
I'll mention as well that rolling back learning institutions is a very dangerous line of argument, especially in the age of misinformation, disinformation, and pervasive news-as-entertainment leading to both societal divisions and the erosion of critical thinking.
1. Networking
2. Mentorships in the respective top of fields
3. Good-ol-Boys club, for the ivy leagues
4. Accumulator for rarer knowledge, including people
5. And since the GI bill, its been a diploma mill and a federal-money-grabber and indefinite tax on the populace who were suckered into the money pit