Ask HN: How much screen time do you let your kids have?
My son will be 4 in March. We don't have a tv, so the only screen time he's had is about an hour a day of watching a few children's shows through Amazon or Hulu. It's been mostly good, because the shows are educational and we talk to him daily about what he's seeing. It's really interesting to here what conclusions he draws from some of these shows, and it's amazing what he picks up from shows like Wild Kratts.
We recently got an ipad mini for travel. It was great while traveling; he starting using some apps about the human body, one that let him build robots and guide them through a maze, etc. But now that we're done traveling for a bit, he keeps wanting to use the ipad. I want him to continue gaining exposure to devices like an ipad, but I also don't want him to have excessive screen time. He complains loudly for about a minute when we tell him we're finished with the ipad, but then quickly finds something interesting to do in the house.
What do HN parents of kids around this age do? At what age did you start setting specific time limits for screen time? At what age did you start your kids on projects specifically related to programming? (I have no need to push programming, but I certainly want to expose him to the concepts. He's already pretending to program the computer he watches videos on, and physical objects that he pretends are robots.)
97 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 168 ms ] threadThere are also some physical skills that kids develop from learning to turn pages, and handle books.
Books and devices are going to be around for a long time. Kids who develop appropriate fluency with both are going to be in a better position to make sense of their world.
Your approach seems almost like saying never take a kid on a trip to the grand canyon or show them a picture or video of it, when you can read them a poem or stage an interpretive dance about the grand canyon instead.
We have just returned to the UK after three years in a small country that had hardly a bookshop, where we've been relying on ebooks.
First day in UK we took our 5yo to Hamleys (Toy Shop) and Foyles (book shop). It was a revelation to her. But I can't tell you how enthused we all were by the variety and quality of print books.
For me the ebook/interactive app doesn't really offer yet the immersive experience of print (especially for childrens books). Even for technical books/literature, I find it difficult to get wrapped up in an ebook (perhaps because there are so many distractions a swipe away).
But this is a free world and everyone to feel what they think is correct. Reading education and brain development materials could help deciding on what is good or not.
Parent of a 7yo and an almost 3yo with no TV at home, no computer time at all, and few iphone screen-time: only screen time is during long flights to Europe or somewhere else, road trips or when they are really sick. And the few screen time is always watching something in their second language (primary is English) as we're raising them bilingual. Again, this is our decision and this is a free world.
Why? because we feel that encouraging imagination development is key for their future as an adult being artistic or more technical. As adults we are constantly using our imagination for thinking out of the box, reaching far in our imagination for creating new solutions, etc.
No judging here and everyone can have is own point of view; and at the end who knows who is right or wrong? My only advice would be for the parents to educate themselves more on brain development and use their own judgement when reading such materials (often really opinionated).
There are so many great books that are enjoyable for young and old alike. It will of course depend on your and your child's proclivities, but our favorites over the years have included: The Wizard of Oz books (all 12 volumes, some of which are quite dark, except Ozma's birthday; blech); The Ramayana (seriously); Winnie the Pooh; Stuart Little; Narnia; Hobbit; Sherlock Holmes; Agatha Christie (we read 60 of these together after she turned 7; her favorite is The Body in the Library); Hugo Cabret; The Golden Compass; Sea of Trolls; Treasure Island; Tripods; Wrinkle in Time; Earthsea Trilogy; LOTR; Rumpole of the Bailey; James Thurber; Lemony Snicket (esp. All the Wrong Questions). In addition, she has her own favorites that she's read alone to herself over the years.
She also reads many graphic novels, which have greatly influenced her own storytelling and art. She has loved Amulet, Flight, Delilah Dirk, In Real Life, The Silver Six, Ghostopolis, Bad Island, Zita the Space Girl, Drama, Sisters, Smile, Rapunzel's Revenge, Bone.
For reading aloud, I especially recommend Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, and other crime/mystery books with 19th-century decorum. They expose the crime, puzzles, characters, and social dynamics, while leaving the explicit sex and violence off stage. (She can of course ask about anything she likes.)
I hope people will respond with their favorite out-loud reading books.
1. Blocked youtube on all iOS devices. This has been the most significant, positive action. She was rabid and unhappy whenever she used youtube, even for 20 minutes. The mental unbalance would sometimes last for hours.
2. NO live TV (no ads), unless we're watching a special event, e.g. a tennis tournament or other major cultural happenings (usually via BBC/VPN). The TV screen is hooked to a Mac mini, with XBMC and an account for the parents and another one for our daughter.
3. Weekly budget. She has a few cards which she can use in a given week (refill each Monday morning): 3 for documentaries (mostly nature, 45-60' each), and 1 for a weekend movie (animated or musical). Initially she had 2 documentary-cards, which we increased when she turned 4, and we added the movie card when she turned 5. She's much happier and specific about what she wants to watch with her own budget control. She has made a fake mickey mouse club card (she had discovered it through youtube), but we've never honored it. She also made a joker card to enable herself to watch anything she wants as many times as she wants; never accepted that one either... I highly recommend all the BBC Natural World shows.
4. Purchased a few iOS apps for her enjoyment: first animal pictures and sounds; next Doodle; and in the last couple of years several Montessori apps. She loves them all, and usually after an initial obsessive [edit: 1 hour over a] day or two with a new app she'll only return to the iPad for much shorter, infrequent sessions (maybe twice a week). I buy a new app maybe once every 2-3 months. I've turned on restrictions in all devices, to prevent in-app purchases and installing+deleting apps; if a (rare) free app keeps popping up advertisement when she's using it we delete it and explain to her it was broken.
Last year she inherited my old, sim-less iPhone 4 which she can use as an iPod to listen to audiobooks and her favorite music. She loves that, especially Roald Dahl stories. I've only recently installed on it one of the apps I had purchased (via the iOS/iCloud family feature). And this week she discovered Siri ("the computer speaks to me!") by accident.
hth
We disabled the Youtube app in Restrictions when Apple included it in the default setup (up to iOS 5).
If you have a linksys router you can visit http://192.168.1.1 and the default username and password are both "admin". From there you can visit the website restrictions area and add YouTube to be 1 of 4 restricted domains.
Now she also knows about Wikipedia and will ask every other week whether we can look something up on the iPad, e.g. why do camels have humps; we end up learning a lot of other things. She's not yet able to comfortably read at the level of Wikipedia, maybe next year.
I can see in her eyes she doesn't quite grok it when I say this access to images and explanations did not exist when I was a child. I loved the depictions of The Diamond Age. Wish we were closer to it by now.
May I recommend http://simple.wikipedia.org? It's obviously not nearly as expansive as the standard English version, but it's a great option for EFL adults or younger kids.
As an adult who started on computers at 6, I think we're overstating the problem. He's more interested in mud / trains / walking in the park than the iPad. It's not novel to them, not as it was to use in the 70s/80s.
https://medium.com/message/playing-with-my-son-e5226ff0a7c3
① http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/06/30/quantification
Edit: Related blog posts:
http://penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/06/30/quantification
http://penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/06/30/screen-time
Nothing in here is definitive. I am not saying that negative effects of screen time are proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. Personally, what I care about is what's most likely to be true, so I can act on that for the sake of my son. I think it is more likely than not that >2 hours of screen time per day is a negative factor. I think it is more likely than not that reading is a positive factor. I'm not going to wait for something to be 99.99% proven before I act on the information.
[1]http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/08/28/343735856/kids-and-sc...
[2]http://www.parents.com/fun/entertainment/books/the-brainy-be...
At least based on my kids (4 and 7) I concur. We give them an hour a day of screen time.
(The zeroth phase in the cycle is prudish uninformed opposition that is comically wrong about what the downsides are and why)
I try my best to answer all her questions and encourage her to ask more. When I don't know the answer, she and I do the research together.
I think the approach is working really well and we're going to do the same with our one year old too.
Whatever you do, don't ever permit Caillou. A couple episodes of it and our kids were mimicking bad behaviours - "hrmph" to any requests, whining constantly, etc. We banned it and everything went back to normal. http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/26/5549908/arian-foster-caill...
But would I get strict if my kids did want to watch TV or an iPad for hours to the detriment of their health or wanting to do other stuff? Yes.
Should my parents have restricted my screen time? Sometimes, yes. But more importantly, they should have tried to make my screen time more meaningful to me instead of leaving me to my own devices.
Personally, my primary goal for my son is not to make him the best programmer out there. I want him to be a good, happy person first and foremost. If there are things I can do to make him a better programmer that would hurt the chances of him being happy and good, then I will probably prefer instead to hurt his chances of being a good programmer.
Screen time is one of those things that I'm somewhat concerned about. Some kids get a lot of it these days. I'm not normally one for fearmongering, but the studies I've seen coming out don't necessarily take a very positive view of its effects.
We know there are some problems with excess screen tine (mostly sleep hygiene, but can combine with speech problems in extreme cases) so it's a good thing that parents ask.
Parents normally know if they have a neuro-atypical child and would tailor the questions appropriately.
Writing code?
"Stop playing video games and go outside."
Toying with Linux?
"Stop playing video games and go outside."
Playing World of Warcraft?
"Stop playing video games and go outside."
When I was able to get "screen time" I usually spent more of it playing video games instead of being productive, because that time was so limited.
I would regularly "hang out" on a forum dedicated to amateur story-writers sharing and critiquing each other. I wrote my stories in a notebook, with a few drafts and rewrites, then when I sat down at our computer and the "computer timer" began, I would race to type it up and submit the story, then print out a few other members stories to read during the week, and race to type out reviews for the stories I had printed last time. Then hopefully I had enough time to run a dungeon with friends, or play some Counter Strike.
So I was able to work on my writing offline, but I don't believe that did me any favors. Having access to a spellchecker and Wikipedia while I wrote would have been amazing, instead of a dictionary and no reference materials.
I could be programming, and have to stop and spend a certain amount of time outside. Some days I would spend the time outside just sitting and thinking about my program, working out solutions, I quickly learned that typing is the least essential part of programming. But without Google or documentation, it was hard. I only had one "Teach yourself C++" book, which was not a reference book.
It just wasn't fun, programming at home. Having to stop after two hours, the looks of disapproval as my parents walked by (as if I were doing drugs right in front of them), and being interrupted frequently while working. When I was on the computer, my parents were more likely to assign me pointless chores ("The dog's water bowl is half-empty, fill it up, please") while the "computer timer" was still ticking.
I started a programming club at my high school, and would stay late most days just teaching myself to code, because I didn't want to go home. I remember I would download the source to games I enjoyed, print out about a hundred pages of code and study it. If I was reading code on a screen, I was ruining my life. But if I was reading it on paper, everything was okay.
Of course, I was no saint. I was sucked into World of Warcraft, as were all my friends. I know I have an addictive personality, but it doesn't just apply to negative things. I'm just as "addicted" to programming. I was just as "addicted" to reading and writing science fiction. I don't write anymore, and music took its place. It always finds an outlet anyways, I spent all of my money on comic books and trading card games because those somehow made my parents happier than when I was programming. I wish I had learned better self-control when I was younger instead of learning how to grind through hours of other activities, just to get back to grinding in the game.
The restrictions also made me seem much worse. When a dungeon takes two hours to run, and you only have two hours to use the computer, you get frantic. You call your friends and let them know "I can be on from 3 to 5 Saturday. Be on then, and please don't be late." You're be anxious while the computer starts, while the game loaded. The whole time, this egg-timer above the desk was ticking down. I would be furious when I was kicked off minutes before reaching the final boss. My parents thought video games just made people behave like that. It was even worse when we wiped (when everyone dies), because then I knew it was impossible to complete in ...
OP: I don't quite understand. What your child should be doing? Read paper book, because it's better than reading something on screen?
Please don't restrict mediums. Restrict activities.
That's a great way of putting it.
Also I think there is a worthwhile kinesthetic element on puzzles that is lost online. That could vary from learning to precisely line up puzzle pieces to other things. For instance my younger DS enjoys both the ipad and physical versions of Rush Hour/RHjr. Honestly, setting up the board in physical version is more of a sequencing challenge than solving the puzzles... I know... that makes no sense... however I've seen it again and again. The physical version teachs a superset of the sequencing, planning, and visual skills of the app.
Example: Their dad would take their video games as punishment for something totally unrelated and it bred resentment. I took their video games only if they were fighting about a specific video game and I only took that specific video game and lectured them that they were doing it wrong, games were for having fun and if they were fighting with a loved one over a stupid game, they were totally missing the point. They learned to negotiate and cooperate and not fight.
I also sometimes took their controllers during the day because we homeschooled and "10 minute" breaks would turn into hours of video games and they got nothing done. So, for a time, I locked up the controllers during the day. They were given them back not at any specific time (like 3pm) but once they were done with their school work for the day. So working harder got rewarded.
If there was a problem in specific, I addressed that specific problem. But I never arbitrarily limited anything like "screen time." I have zero understanding of what the point of that is. To my mind, unless you specifically think it harms them developmentally (for example, creating eyesight issues), I just cannot fathom why parents feel some need to be so controlling about this stuff. It just does not compute for me.
They are now 25 and 27 and they are wonderful human beings, imo. I am perfectly happy with the results of my parenting efforts.
Especially on hackernews. We're (mostly?) programmers, right?
- Tablets can be used for reading at any time
- Schoolwork is a valid reason to use devices
- Music without videos is not "screen time".
- anything else is "screen time".
- Screen time does not exist on Monday through Thursday. (This was originally "from school end until all homework is done", but it turns out that their behavior is significantly worse when we allow that.)
- Screen time is never available after dinner, unless a parent is actively involved. (Drastically improves their ability to go to bed on time.)
- On weekends, one day is as much screen time as you want until dinner time. The other day may or may not have some screen time depending on behavior. If you find something better to do, you can't claim a refund.
There hasn't been a live TV feed in our house since before they were born; commercials are fascinating to them. I frequently have to tell them to put down a book while they do something else, because otherwise they will try to perform the task one-handed while reading.
Where would you be if you would be treated as that?
It seems like a reasonable way to limit unproductive, pure-entertainment computer use. A parent with some common sense should be able to identify what is productive.
I also expect these rules to change along with the kids, not remain static. If we're successful, then by 16 or so I expect that the rules will be down to "Don't wake up sleeping people."
I often wonder if those of us who first experienced computers in the 90s (And remember DOS->Win 3.1->95->98->XP) are the last generation for who a computer was a fascinating thing to learn, as now things seem to be moving to computers/tablets/smart phones merely being consumption and social sharing devices. There were several of us that learned HTML in elementary school for our angelfire pages. I can't understand the fascination people have now at watching other people play games on youtube/whatever that other site is. Oh well, C'est la vie.
To solve this problem for myself, I built an HTML5 Youtube player app which allows parents to set daily time quotas and flag inappropriate videos. I've replaced YouTube with this app on our iPad. The kids don't exceed the quotas that I've set often, but its useful to have a history of how much they've been watching and what they've been watching. I did flag some music videos that were inappropriate. The kids seem to like the fact that they have their own profiles.
The app is still work in progress, but if you are interested , take a look at http://www.olipie.com/. Any feedback or suggestions are most welcome.
Welcome aboard!
Mz, first lady of hn (or at least it appears that way to me -- someone feel free to prove me wrong)
Best of luck.
If I ever see them go 'full retard' with the screen usage I would step in, but they have never really gotten that far. They always find time to play between them: play fights, bowling with their toy pins, playing with the dog, etc.
I don't really believe in that type of parenting where you control each and every second of the day for your kid. I wasn't raised that way. Let kids be kids.
An hour a day for a four year old is far too much. {EDIT: in my opinon, with no supporting research} You should be limiting it to a couple of hours per week.
Someone needs to set up a website that curates lists of good (or at least not awful) apps for children -- a good list is needed because no parent has the time to wade through the awful awful app stores.
Children do pick stuff up really easily, so you're probably going around introducing programming concepts the right way. Getting yourself up to speed on the introductory programming languages might be useful so you can answer the "hey dad, what do I do now?"
We do things too early in England - a child born on 31st August would be at school full time now, doing synthetic phonics ("first, fast, only" is the buzzphrase for synthetic phonics here) and learning to write. (It's the full days at school I'm objecting to, not learning to read and write).
I don't see how it's possible to claim this.
Sometimes harder to justify the claim, though.
1. Active and positive, such as educational, creative: example: math apps, spelling apps, etc.
2. Passive but positive: example: watching professional figure skaters so my daughter can understand how good one can get in an area/field
3. Passive and mindless: example: movies
4. Net negatives: example: broadcast TV with advertisements
Net negatives
- Our daughters have nearly zero exposure to net negatives.
Passive and mindless
- Movies, iPad games, etc. are limited. In terms of time, probably 1 or fewer movies per week (so max 90 minutes per week).
Passive but positive
- These are unlimited b/c it helps the girls understand what's possible.
- In terms of time, it's very adhoc. My daughters will watch when they want inspiration.
- My older daughter tends to watch things like piano, ice skating, skate boarding, and other activities that she's into.
- Both girls are allowed to sit with my wife and I when we're watching technology training videos. You'd be amazed at how much our 7 year old knows about big data tech like Hive.
Active and positive
- Unlimited, but the girls tend to self regulate. IMO, self regulation is a skill and I'd rather they learn it early in life.
- I've observed interesting learning patterns when the kids are allowed to really focus on a topic until they master it.
Lastly, the biggest thing I do is integrate digital experiences with experiential / real-world learning. For example, each spring my daughters and I do a thing we call Flower Walk. Basically, we walk around the neighborhood, they smell and take pictures of flowers, then they look information about each flower up on their iPad's.
As the mentioned tablet is made by this site's favourite company and, as such, rather restricted in what can be done with it, I started to create a few tools to get her to use the thing in a more productive (versus the mentioned 'consumptive') way. For now, this is mostly related to reading books [1][2] and other documents from our rather extensive personal collection. I also got her a Raspberry Pi 'just for fun, to see what can be done with it'. We'll probably set it up to control the RGB LED spot she got for her birthday, 'just for fun'. I put this between quotes because I do have a deeper meaning with these experiments: show her that she can use her creativity and imagination to make things happen that did not happen before. Things she made herself, which her friends do not have. That creating something can be more giving than grooming that virtual horse for the umpteenth time...
My other daughter is 3, she goes to daycare ('dagis' in Swedish) for 15 hours per week. At 'dagis' they also have one of those mentioned tablets, when I ask her what she's done that day she'll respond with 'I played on the tablet'. But did you not do anything else? 'No, I only played on the tablet'. This does not seem to be true, as they state children only get about 10 minutes on the thing, but it does make me doubt the wisdom of having these tablets in a daycare centre. The whole idea with sending her there is that she can interact with other children after all...
[1] https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php?content=167127 [2] https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php?content=168132