Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?
He assigned me to follow the instructions of an "expert" in completing a compliance document (a task in which I am not trained), and the "expert" turned out to be producing documents that are not in compliance with Federal law. The "expert" repeatedly stated in writing that I was doing an "excellent" job, and I am concerned I am facing retaliation for reporting that her work was simply not correct.
When I raised that issue, he immediately began the process of putting me on a 30 day review, a necessary step prior to termination. Such programs are ostensibly to give an employee an opportunity to improve performance.
When I asked whether this was a true opportunity to improve performance, or simply a formality, he hesitated for a great deal of time before making statements that strongly implied, without directly stating, that it was a mere formality.
I have no desire to lose my job, but I am most concerned that being fired would place future job prospects in jeopardy.
According to my colleagues, I'm very competent at my position, but this supervisor has been angry with me since I pointed out to him a few months ago that he may have violated firm policy in a severe way.
What should I do? I would like to remain with the firm and be transferred to another project, but the steps he will take will prevent that.
I do not wish to move, and if fired I will be effectively blackballed from most firms in this city. I have a life, friends, a girlfriend I love very much, and don't wish to leave that behind.
HNers, whether or not you know it, you've been a big part of my life since this site's founding. I value your input and advice tremendously.
What do I do? Do I simply begin looking for other positions? Do I report his increasingly erratic behavior, and waste of firm resources? Do I quit before the period expires?
What are your thoughts?
197 comments
[ 0.24 ms ] story [ 361 ms ] threadEither way things can't go back to the way they were. You're either getting fired, or you're going to choose to leave. This means changes are coming. So you've got to take charge of how your life is going to change.
Another thought- it's possible that your supervisor's manager is aware of the action being taken against you. You might be able to get better advice talking to someone in a different reporting chain if you can find them.
Whether that would actually help here and whether such markings have any weight in whatever legal system the OP is operating within are different questions, of course.
If you're fairly certain you'll be fired (and it sounds like you are) wouldn't this be the most sensible solution?
When asked in interviews why you left saying you quit usually goes over a lot better than saying you were fired. And explaining why you quit would certainly not be considered a poor reason - at least not for the companies you would want to work for.
Plus companies will often terminate you via a technical layoff, or 'position eliminated' instead of 'termination for cause'.
Don't give HR at the new employer any reason to wonder about what happens after you're hired. This vague stuff is not cool. Try, "My girlfriend and I were ready to moving to Portland for her job as a biochemist at xyz but it didn't work out (provide more detail here) so here I am looking for work back home" or something similarly tragic but obvious one time only concrete specific event. Or your position was in line for a forced relo and you really like (insert name of city you're interviewing at). Claim to be downsized, how are they going to know? Perhaps you have a terminally ill distant relative who did in fact recently die so now you are looking for work thats more challenging now that you're not distracted.
Also provide future, unverifiable reasons. I intend to attend the university of XYZ masters program next semester and your office happens to be down the street from the university of XYZ so I was thinking ... And if you end up not attending, well so be it. My girlfriend/mom/dad/bro/uncle is planning on moving right down the street to minimize commute, and we are a close family and oh, look, you're right next door.
The laws and lawsuits are so strict that you can pretty much tell HR anything and your former employer will only provide dates titles and salary, or you'll be collecting a large lawsuit paycheck from them. If you're going to tell a story, tell a good, believable, detailed one.
Note that if you file a lawsuit, most HR types can search the court record and will ask you why you sued your former employer for wrongful termination when you claimed in the interview that your girlfriend was moving to Austin or whatever. So settling out of court, assuming there is a settlement, is in everyone's best interest not just the former employer.
Look on the bright side, better to escape without legal action, than to escape with a "sued his employer" in the court records, which is better than "named in felony proceedings for falsified corporate accounting records" or whatever they were setting up to frame you for. You're in a bad spot but you've avoided so many worse possible spots.
Companies really shouldn't pry any further when there's good reason to believe you're legally obliged to shut up. Plus refraining from the opportunity to rant about their dubious practises and coverups also implies that you're a sensible professional with high standards rather than a troublemaker.
The possibility that your most-likely-soon-to-be-ex-employer might feel compelled to offer you some kind of settlement in return for you agreeing not to mention alleged non-compliance or unfair dismissal to anybody else actually probably still exists. But you ask your counsel (or two or three different lawyers) about that, not HN.
Now, if you are really sure that your manager is preparing to fire you, then :
"Do I simply begin looking for other positions"
Yes, right away. Keep it only to yourself.
"Do I report his increasingly erratic behavior, and waste of firm resources?"
Don't. At least not yet. It will be a waste of your time and until you are in a strong position (have already found another job etc), you will most likely weaken your position further. Remember, the company will have more interest in keeping the manager and not you. This is not the time to be a whistleblower etc and think about doing the right thing etc. The right thing to do is to look out for yourself by finding another job asap. All the other things can come later if you want.
"Do I quit before the period expires?"
Find a job if you can within the period and quit then. Do not quit on your own before finding another job.
Here is my overall take on this. You need to put yourself in a strong position before doing anything. This means that you have another job lined up. Don't worry about being blacklisted because if you do need a reference, you can always use other colleagues and not necessarily your manager. Remember the saying "most people quit their bosses not the company". And if you can find the new job before getting fired/quitting, then you anyway don't have to use current boss/company as reference because no one does that. You also will not have to explain the details of why you are really quitting.
Even though you cannot say with certainty, but whenever a manager puts someone on a "30 day review", it is most likely because they want to get rid of you. Officially, they have to do a bunch of bullshit documentation for HR and legal purposes but your hunch is almost always right.
Get out of there if you feel like you are no longer wanted. Do not confront your boss or say anything verbally or in writing. Keep it simple. Find a job, give notice to your current employer/boss in writing which should just say "I am quitting effective xyz date". Be prepared to be fired right away on the spot after your notice if they were anyway going to get rid of you. SO before sending the notice, make sure you have your desk ready to go just in case. I have seen this many times when someone is walked out of their office right away after giving notice when they were anyway going to be fired.
Is it okay to do this while still being employed at a company? Would you consult the colleague and ask him to not reveal you are looking for a new job?
This isn't for OP, but my own knowledge.
Trust comes first - the rest follows rather easily.
If that is true, why not escalate this up the chain? Unless there is some big conspiracy / cover up going on, I'm sure upper management would be interested in the truth.
I'm not the OP and I'm sure upper management everywhere are interested in the truth but I'm interested in maintaining the relationship with my direct superiors more.
If my direct superiors aren't handling an issue I will never go over their head as it'll probably sour our relationship and nothing will probably get done anyways.
If "the issue" is your superior is on a warpath to get you fired, I think that ship has sailed.
Considering that you want to stay at the company there are really only two ways this could turn out good for you: You bring this up the chain, effectively reporting your supervisor's bad behavior, and wind up reassigned under someone else, or you bring this up the chain and your supervisor gets fired. The latter is the only scenario that really gives you a good shot of remaining at the company without being hassled, and it sounds like your supervisor's behavior was bad enough to warrant their dismissal.
Some people do horrible things and their companies protect them. Maybe they're politically connected, well-liked, or valuable for other reasons. The way I look at this overall is that the company is either good enough to stop this sort of retaliatory behavior or they're not, in which case you shouldn't want to work for them anyways.
Good luck.
The boss currently thinks that firing you is the most effective way to make the problem disappear. For the reasons you set out, you should act to change that.
My suggestion is to make it clear (strongly imply, without directly stating) that you will whistle-blow if you remain on probation or are otherwise mistreated.
I guess the manager understands that the OP will not whistleblow. Indeed, the OP doesn't seem to have considered it an option. This is exactly what allows the manager to treat the OP this way. The OP needs to show the manager otherwise.
Even if the OP finds a moderately nicer job later on, which I am sure they will, they need to do more to avoid reaching such a position in the first place. Or, this will happen again.
I would also like to ensure that I correct the original comment in that I do not have sufficient legal knowledge to be certain that anything illegal or improper was done, which is why I am consulting with counsel before acting.
However, there are not many actions in business that are perfectly ethical.
And, you won't always have decent recourse in law even if someone acts illegally against you.
For now, good luck.
I would be wary of whistleblowing, but I would also be very wary of saying anything more to your employer than what is legally required (or than your lawyer advises). I don't see that we have socially made whistleblowing worth the risk to you, therefore, you should not take that risk, but if it helps your case, your severance, whatever, for your soon-to-be-former employer think that you might make trouble for them if they piss you off even more, that might be okay (if they're certain that you might make trouble for them, that's another matter and maybe a problem).
For the non-legal and probably more useful advice, this does not sound like a job that is worth keeping. You can't fix a bad boss, you're not paid enough to fix a bad boss (it ought to be the case that you would get a massive bonus for fixing a bad boss, but sadly the world does not work that way) better to look out for your own sanity and well-being. Don't burn bridges, don't slack off, I also don't recommend knocking yourself out in an attempt to save your job because (you wrote here for advice, here it is) it's not worth saving, DO prepare a resume and send it out, and follow the usual recipe of applying to as many places as you can stand managing all at once. It ought to take a few weeks for the sent resumes to turn into interviews, so it's not that likely to take too much of your (not-slacking-off) time. Ask your lawyer exactly what to say if a potential employer asks why you're leaving, because it's a delicate dance and there's things you probably cannot safely say (for example, what you've said here...).
No. Not only is this a bad approach for what is probably a bad company, you have an obligation (potentially one with consequences) to report illegal/uncompliant activity. HN and elsewhere is filled with stories of corporate abuses that could have been prevented but for someone who just wanted to keep their job.
If you really want to feel like you're righted, you leave, and then report, and hopefully get some folks fired along the way, and ideally it'll cause the company to lose some money as a result.
Makes it look like extortion. That's not going to help.
And when the feds bust the company for felony non-compliance you do not want to be the fall guy for everything illegal your former employer ever did, including the stuff you haven't figured out yet. The first thing to do once the former employer is officially former is talk to your lawyer, the second thing to do is with your lawyers advice and help is document the false reports with the feds. You don't want to get arrested at your new job six months later because the feds finally came down on your former employer for the false reports and they set you up to take all the blame.
Now, you're not immune to workforce politics so there may still be reasons why you'd be fired but I definitely wouldn't accept it without finding out a lot more about your situation and potentially escalating the complaint.
Also, this industry does not treat whistleblowers well, so I'm hesitant to take this route, yet. But I want to make sure I follow firm policy very precisely regarding these issues, so I'm consulting closely with legal counsel.
In sounds like your colleagues know you're doing a great job and are an asset - use them as references on your resume for any future jobs, and there is no need to mention you were fired - you can just say you're ready for new challenges.
If you want to stand up for yourself you could go over your boss's head. Risky, could get you fired immediately, but could get your boss fired/disciplined and save your position.
You could consult with a lawyer for advice...
The safest thing to do is go with the flow and quit (finding a new job first if possible). But just because something is safe doesn't mean it's the right way to go...
get out while you can.
get out while you can.
You would be surprised how far companies will go to avoid outright terminating someone. In past jobs I have been in management and had to deal with people who had anger management problems, drug problems, and sexually harassed co-workers. Despite the documentation for these issues they were given up to 6 months to find other jobs and/or terminated with several months of severance for signing an agreement they wouldn't sue.
A lawyer will generally give you a free consultation and could write a letter on your behalf for a few hundred dollars. If your case seems to have more merit, they may be willing to take it on contingency.
So maybe you're right. If you think it's a real possibility than quit, certainly. And it's not an either/or option - you can escalate the issue to senior management and quit at the same time.
Anyway, overall it sucks but you will survive. Good luck.
Out of curiosity, why stay in a place where they clearly feel they can just fire people at a moments notice like you're some statistic?
Could you hand in your job notice and quit before going through being fired? Do that and report the guy at the same time? If he's done this to you, who else can he do this too?
Also get your previous performance reports, that will hopefully show that whatever reasons he put down for placing you under 30 day review are out of character and unusual.
Edit: typos
In the meantime, I would begin a journal and start taking notes (with dates/times) on what you have been told, observations you have made, etc. This may be helpful both to the lawyer as well as anyone else when you are asked to recall things. This way, it's contemporaneous note-taking as your reference, and not some attempted recollection from some time considered long past.
First of all, you're not going to work here forever. You'll let laid off, or get pushed out in an acquisition, or find a better gig down the road, or get fired for cause. No one stays at a job forever.
Secondly, don't place so much faith in your "permanent record". Yeah, getting fired can impact you, but not as significantly as you think. I've had some jobs I seriously screwed up on, but I'm far from the soup kitchen today. Even if someone notices, there are laws regarding disclosure, and you will get interviews. In today's world of high profile ethical failures, your response to why you were terminated will make you stand out.
People around the world are dying for their beliefs. Don't stand for having imaginary potential consequences dangled in front of you like a carrot prevent you from doing the proper thing.
1. Forget it, that job is over, it can't be salvaged. Knowing it's over, do the minimum work.
2. Start actively looking. Even if you don't find a new job within 30 days, you'll start getting interviews in your pipeline.
3. If it's so bad that it's making you sick (trouble sleeping, etc.), then just walk away now. Otherwise, there are advantages to saying on to the end. They might offer you some salary as severance. You might be eligible for unemployment. Even if they do fire you, for legal reasons, they'll probably word it as a layoff rather than a firing for cause.
4. I'd advise against a whisteblower lawsuit. It's a lot of stress with no guarantee of winning.
5. Don't be sure that you'll be blackballed. There's always another job.
Secondly I have thought that I was doing a good job but I was viewed negatively. I later found out that an ounce of criticism or attitude ruined my whole perspective. I had to learn that one comment or one person didn't decide who liked me. I just rolled with the punches and talked to managers and other non-related co-workers if they saw things the same way, but without complaining or seeing myself as a negative fault finding Nancy.
Someone close to me was in a similar situation a little while ago and did start a formal grievance process. Thanks to what seems to have been bad/late professional advice, they missed one of the deadlines for taking things further and consequently that formal process terminated.
Around that time, they started taking professional advice from a different source and exploring their options, continuing to work for the employer in the meantime.
They subsequently concluded that the job was beyond hope and resigned, IIRC a couple of months later, and lawyers started exchanging letters to try and avoid formal action. As I understand it, just about the first thing the former employer's lawyers did was point out that the former employee had remained in the job for a considerable time after the end of the formal grievance process without (as far as the employer was concerned) taking any further action. They argued this was sufficient evidence that no problems serious enough to be considered constructive dismissal remained at that time, and as it turned out, that was effectively game over.
(This matter never went to formal action. Reportedly the advice given to the former employee at that point was that their former employer had a decent chance of winning on that basis, and even if they lost it would cause a lot of time and stress to pursue the matter to its full conclusion with limited benefit likely to result.)
YMMV, if you need legal advice talk to a lawyer, etc. Just make sure you get better professional advice than this unfortunate person did, and get second opinions early if anyone advising you seems to be slow to respond or otherwise giving you less than their full support.
(1) There are exceptions around specific circumstances: explicit contracts, implicit contracts (in some states) by way of publishing firing procedures in employee handbooks, and a requirement (in a very few states, but notably for software, California) for good-faith behavior by employers. PIPs are part of the "reason to dismiss" documentation for that last bit. Still, your usual recourse is collecting unemployment, not anything more drastic.
http://employment.findlaw.com/losing-a-job/eligibility-for-u...
If your single and you might get married make sure you don't take full unemployment benefits and maybe you just need to sponge off friends and families because getting fired and getting a "Do Not Rehire" puts a HUGE hole in your employment history.
Use the 30 days to land another job.
It seems that such managers often do get called out eventually, particularly if they have a pattern of mistreating their immediate subordinates and start to show abnormally high numbers of complaints or people within their team moving on. Sadly, by the time that happens, it is usually too late for any of their immediate subordinates whom they have already started to victimise. They always know the formal procedures better than you do, because this kind of person builds their whole career around playing the game to their own advantage. Starting the disciplinary process on dubious grounds before the subordinate can start a formal grievance procedure is straight out of their playbook.
So my advice would be along similar lines to fsk's: work on the basis that this job is over, look to the future, but don't burn any bridges unnecessarily with the current employer or anyone else who works there.
In addition, if you are one of the victims here but have generally done a decent job and got along with people other than the problem manager, you have probably earned some respect from other people senior to you in the organisation. They might be peers of your manager, whose teams you have worked with along the way with good results. They might be people higher up in your own management chain, who have seen good results prior to the hostile manager taking over (and may have their own concerns about that manager, though if they're professional they probably won't give you any hint of this, they'll only discuss any concerns you raise yourself).
These people may be able to give you a useful reference in their official capacity, so you don't need to rely on the current line manager when applying for new jobs. If company policy forbids that, for example because the only permitted official references come from HR and just confirm dates of employment, then perhaps your contacts can at least give you a positive comment on LinkedIn or some other sort of constructive but unofficial endorsement.
Also, keep records of everything you legally and practically can. Remember that anything stored on company machines (particularly things like e-mails or any internal performance reviews) can be cut off at the employer's whim, and probably will be cut off without notice the moment the official firing process starts, so if you can get a copy that is under your own control, that is to your advantage. Also make written notes immediately of what was said in any in-person conversions or phone calls that might be relevant to your situation, such as the exact words used that you took to imply the 30 day review was being treated as a formality.
You don't necessarily have to ever use any of this stuff. My instinct personally is to fight these kinds of injustice, but as fsk said, that's often a lot of stress with little real upside, and literally everyone I know who has actually been in this position hasn't felt it was worth it. However, if your soon-to-be-former employer tries to come after you thanks to your manager's efforts, or more importantly if once you're gone they try to blame you for any actually illegal things that might have happened, then you want to have a mountain of evidence of the way they have tried to force you out and/or cover things up, and the fact that your own work wasn't to blame and you tried to act reasonably and do the right thing when you became aware of a problem. In ...
I strongly disagree with this step. Ensure your performance is exceptional, flawless, and that everyone sees it. It's hard to do, hard to keep focus and not slip when everyone else is misbehaving, but it pays off:
1) It keeps your hands clean. Others won't know the inside story of why you were let go; if they see you slacking, they will doubt your character and work ethic and believe it's your fault. If they see exceptional performance they may give you the benefit of the doubt. You want them wondering, 'how could they fire him/her?'
2) It leaves a strong impression with everyone, possibly even your boss, of your work ethic and professionalism: 'Even knowing he/she would be fired, look what he/she did'. A crisis is a chance to show your quality.
3) It keeps your hands clean, which means you can sleep easily in the future. Don't do anything you will question later. Be proud of what you did and that you rose above your manager and the situation. Having been in similar situations, it made a great deal of difference in my self-respect and peace of mind down the road.
For example, if you have a choice between doing a 5 minute patch or spending a couple hours refactoring it correctly, just do the 5 minute patch.
In two years (say) he will be interviewing somewhere, and sitting across from him will be the person that had to deal with the aftermath of that 5 minute patch. Or, it could be the person that had the pleasure of working with his refactored code. Which situation is better for him?
Not to mention that this situation is not the fault of the company or his coworkers. Why should they suffer?
I don't see a single thing that this attitude will accomplish other than "vengence", which in my book is something to avoid, as appealing as it may seem at dark moments.
These are people in your industry, in your town. Some may know the person you hope will hire you next, or the one after that, or .... You and your former co-workers hope to have long careers at many different employers. Some will become employers themselves. This job will end sooner or later; your reptutation you'll keep with you.
I definitely notice when somebody makes a strong, professional finish. Indeed, it's a great way to understand somebody's character. Everybody's nice and helpful on their first day at work. It's how people behave when there's no immediate reward at stake that tells me what they'll be like in future tough situations.
Also, easiest way to get another job is for an ex-coworker to recommend you. Keep those bridges built.
You also show your evil manager and everyone else what a professional you are, even if he isn't.
I got fired once after 3 months at a company, without any warning or hints of my boss not being satisfied with my performance. I was completely devastated but decided to double down on my efforts for the period I had left. A week later my boss called me to his office and said that he had made a mistake firing me and offered me my job back. (I didn't accept)
Document document document. Don't quit your job and when and if they do fire you. Sue. It sounds to me like your manger is retaliating against you because they are trying to cover something up. That is never ok and if HR is not handling it, than stand your ground and let the lawyers handle it.
Why? Do you have some kind of Public Hall of Shame where you put those who have been fired? Or do you live in some small village where everyone knows everyone and everything? Really interesting.
The fear (perhaps unjustified) is that any signal indicating a less-than-amicible seperation will be treated as a red flag by potential employers, who would prefer to give the position to someone who is either recruited for that spot in particular, or is trading up cleanly.
This is less of an issue for people with a specific and clearly demonstrable skill set that's in high demand, but to the extent that finding a new position demands some growth on your part (i.e. an employer willing to place some faith in having you develop on their dime) this can add to the potentially crippling sense of self-doubt and insecurity that a situation like the OP described will engender.
There's a school of thought that says your optimal career moves should be based on you getting yourself into places you want to be, not running from places you don't want to be. If you know this, and you're in a situation like this, you already feel you're having to make the most of a bad hand, and that where ever you go next may end up being a severe compromise you have to live with for some time.
b) We have a company policy against giving references but I'd be happy to discuss the weather with you.
a) Okay.
b) The clouds are moving lazily across the sky and everyone thinks they're stupid.
http://assets.amuniversal.com/bcdb80c06d5101301d7a001dd8b71c...