HN Explorer

Tell HN: Eid Mubarak

815 points by asim ↗ HN
To the Muslims on HN, Eid Mubarak! And to everyone else, Eid Mubarak!

For those who don't know. Eid is a day of celebration after the month of Ramadan, in which Muslims fasted for 30 days from sunrise to sunset with no food or water. It's something 2B people around the world celebrate to today or tomorrow (moon sighting permitted).

A note on Ramadan. To those interested in intermittent fasting, longevity, and coming back to a more human experience not drowning in technology, food and consumerism I would say check it out! After over 20 years of doing it I'm still learning something new every year, or I should say, unlearning bad habits we've created for ourselves as a society through abundance.

Hope you all have a great day!

370 comments

[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 406 ms ] thread
crakenzak
Eid Mubarak all! So grateful for this community -- feels like I've learnt more through here than all of university ;)
shamiln
Eid Mubarak; thank you - it's nice to hear it from someone other than my close circle
yousifa
I will add, the fasting from food and water is the easy part. The more important fast is fasting from everything that is bad -- cursing, backbiting, lying, etc -- and from your own desires. All these things are things you shouldn't do anyway, but this is a time to refresh commitment to not doing those things.

As the Quran says: "Oh, you who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that you may learn piety and righteousness" [Quran 2:183]

tradertef
>> I will add, the fasting from food and water is the easy part. Yes, sleep deprivation is the most difficult part. Going to bed late due to invitations, prayers.. getting up early morning to eat breakfast and waking up for work :)
hqudsi
Yea I like to describe fasting like going super saiyan but in spirituality and religiosity.
theobeers
No smoking all day is a big deal for many Muslims in the Middle East. One year I was living in Cairo during Ramadan, and each day when it got close to the sunset call to prayer (which heralds the end of the fast), it seemed like all the cab drivers had cigarettes in hand, waiting eagerly to light up.
thuridas
It is a shame that it didn't lead them to stop smoking
kjellsbells
Humans are hilariously fallible.

I find it interesting that , somehow, preparing for Lent, a time to eat simply and consider the elevation of your soul, became Mardi Gras, an excuse to let it all rip.

atchoo
Hah, I didn't know that.

It's like Pancake Day in the UK. Traditionally the time to use up sugar/milk/eggs before lent but turns into everyone buying extra to pig out on. To think we could have got Mardi Gras instead.

H8crilA
People underappreciate how addictive nicotine is. I've been an addict for 15 years and I quit so many times, sometimes for longer than a year.

The new smoking inventions only make it worse because they allow for much much higher dosages. I've seen teens smoking what amounts to 10 packs a day worth of nicotine. And they didn't have to chain smoke for 12 hours to achieve that.

girishso
What new smoking inventions? Genuinely interested.
dividedbyzero
Vaping probably. Depending on the jurisdiction people can get extremely high-nicotine liquids, or ingredients to mix such liquids at home.
ylere
Nicotine Vapes - Look at the effective dosage of JUULs capsules for example [0]. This combined with the ease of use, the removal of the (unpleasant) smoke, increased social acceptance (often indoors too) and a huge advertising campaign deliberately targeting teens [1] created a lot of new smokers/nicotine addicts (and converted some) that smoke more often and at much higher dosages.

[0] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/01/416371/juul-delivers-subst...

   The research found that blood nicotine concentrations in the JUUL group (136.4 ng/ml) was eight times higher than e-cigs group (17.1 ng/ml) and 5.2 times higher than cigarettes (26.1 ng/ml).
[1] https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/emerging-toba...
agentwiggles
Vaping, I assume. I admit with some shame that after over a decade off cigarettes, I'm currently re-addicted to nicotine via vaping. Over the past 10 years or so, I would buy a pack of smokes every once in a while (like, maybe once a year), and enjoy smoking at a party or concert or whatever. I never had trouble stopping after a few and would usually throw the rest of the pack away, it was honestly just too inconvenient to keep up an addiction (not to mention that unless I was _really_ drinking, I would be all too keenly aware that, well, cigarettes are nasty).

Last time I was on vacation, and might have bought a pack of cigarettes, I decided "hey, why not try a Juul instead," and, the rest is history.

While I'm overall in favor of vapes and think that they're a valuable cessation device, the problem, for me, is that it's all to easy to vape while I work in my home office - no smell, no fire, etc. I think that makes it a lot easier to continually dose nicotine and really settle into addiction. Also, while I'm sure they're safer than cigarettes, I still have doubts that they're safe, and I can't help but think of the attitudes that used to prevail with regards to tobacco back in the 40s and 50s when I hear folks talking about how totally OK for your body vaping is.

kelipso
Juul is useful if you want to switch from smoking to vaping because the high percentage of nicotine makes it easy. But for the same reason, it's incredibly addictive. Also difficult to stop by tapering down because low nicotine percentage juul pods don't exist.
agentwiggles
I recently switched to a refillable pod "mod," and plan to start tapering down by buying lower percentage vape liquid. Iirc there's two concentrations available in Juul pods, but let's be honest, they don't want you to quit. (Not that any other vape company does either, but the vape store model does allow a little more consumer control).
sterlind
aww that's scary. I managed to quit smoking years ago (I only smoked for less than a year anyway), then quit vaping, then used nicotine lozenges for an embarrassingly long amount of time (4+ years?) until quitting cold-turkey at the start of this year.

do you think I'll relapse? I don't usually get cravings anymore but I'm scared it'll happen.

anigbrowl
No probably not. If you don't usually get cravings and you haven't smoked in over 4 years you're probably fine. A good check is to note how you react when you smell someone's cigarette on the street.
anigbrowl
Same story here. Chantix (varenicline) somehow magically eliminated the carvings permanently (13 years and I haven't wanted nicotine again, though I still have nostalgia for the act of smoking). It has heavy side effects, still worth it.
wyclif
Oh yeah, that's a thing. And try catching a cab in Jerusalem during Ramadan. All the cab drivers are Muslim and you'd better have an alternate means of transportation.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
tokyolights2
> and from your own desires

As a non-religious gay I probably wasn't invited anyway. But this kind of thinking is what leads conservatives to so much repression and hate. The idea that the wants and needs of your body are something which the mind must actively fight. That the scratchy, ill-fitting wool sweater of your culture is something that you must keep on at all costs. And it leads to resentment of people who are not under such self-imposed restrictions.

There is a reason in queer culture that 'shadiness' is a bigger sin than anger. Shadiness is what happens when someone represses their true feelings. Those feelings don't go away though, they just resurface in other unexpected and non-adaptive ways.

n1b0m
You could say the same thing about extreme endurance sports. It’s not about looking down on other people. It’s about appreciating what you have and for one month putting yourself in the shoes of those for whom even one meal a day isn’t something they can take for granted.
pwillia7
I'm non religious too and I take your point, but to play devil's advocate -- Most of civilization and the ability for humans to live and cooperate together in large groups, requires us to move past our base wants, desires and the actions they would create.

Even if you want to burn down my house and murder me because I wronged you or slighted your family, that's not morally correct. We have secular law to codify what we see as morally right and I think it makes sense that before states really existed or unified people through national myths, that function was served by Gods

throwaway6734
The ability to repress desires to focus on long term goals or to develop appreciate for the satiating of those desires is a good long term skill to have.

Distance makes the heart grow fonder

Brendinooo
Repressing my desire to eat every bit of food in front of me helps me on the scale.

Repressing desires to stay on the couch and going for a run instead gives me freedom to experience the world without being out of breath or stopping halfway on the hike.

Repressing desires to keep all of my money for myself leads me to be more charitable, which is better for others.

So yeah, self-control is a great thing to cultivate because the presence of a desire does not mean that the desire is good. And even if it's not bad, then it's something that can hinder a greater good.

jmole
not religious either – but the notion that your feelings are "true" and ideals or aspirations that run counter to your feelings are "false" is a very one-sided way to look at this.

If you ask a heroin addict what their true feelings are, the wants and needs of their bodies, it's probably just "get high".

If you ask a 16 year old kid with a porn addiction, it's probably just "get off".

There is no shortage of maladaptive desires in the world, and no shortage of ways to fulfill them. I think you can trace probably half the world's problems to one word: "addiction". The motivation system of the brain gone wrong.

I think what you're trying to point to here is the other half of the world's problems, which is effectively: "acceptance", or rather, the lack thereof. The empathetic system of the brain gone wrong.

abeppu
As a non-religious gay, I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue.

However, raiding the cabinet of historically religious practices and stripping god out of them can be helpful. A lot of things we do on impulse don't actually make us happy, and cutting them out for a bit can be a good way to examine whether they've become unhelpful/unskillful habits. I don't think drinking is inherently bad, but "dry January" can be a nice way to check that I'm not developing a dependency. I'm glad I have a smartphone but I do find that periodically being completely away from screens is a good check. Sex, food, other substances, media, can all be good but can also become parts of habits that don't actually lead to happiness. Temporary self-denial can be a useful tool in reworking one's relationship to these, even if you're definitely going to keep them in your life in some form.

lanstin
freedom in the matter of choosing your own actions is definitely a nice tool to have when planning your week or day, or or responding to stressful suprises.
robocat
> I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue.

Murder? Mayhem? Destruction? Greed?

I agree homosexuality is a fine thing, but your comment is altogether far tooo broad.

Societal morals are often about denying ourselves things we want to do: often because our actions affect others or offend others, but also often for no strong reason at all. Virtue is almost defined by holding ourselves back from unvirtuous actions: can virtue exist in the world if we can all do whatever we will?

abeppu
As a vegetarian for ethical reasons who grew up enjoying eating dead animals, I think we're on the same page actually. But strictly speaking, the virtue (perhaps a loaded word) I think you're alluding to is a willingness to pursue policies which maximize utility function which sums over agents other than oneself, not self-denial per se. Greed is perhaps the most illustrative "vice" on your list; satisfying one's personal greed only sometimes will cause any harm to others, and sometimes will be appropriate to pursue.
Jorengarenar
> > I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue.

> Murder? Mayhem? Destruction? Greed?

The bar is so low you consider not being a dangerous sociopath a virtue?

robocat
You think a dangerous sociopath is not virtuous if, for moral reasons, they hold back from acting upon their antisocial base desires?
j-krieger
You think they hold back from acting upon their desires because of god?
hqudsi
Yea and as a Muslim - I view it more as practicing discipline rather than suppressing desires. Like one the other posts said, you can't be blamed or sinned for having desires or whatever thoughts you have in your head. If we were, then basically no one is getting into heaven. And for some desires, Islam offers ways to fulfill them in a way that it views as permissiable. Whether or not you buy that ultimately comes down to faith but that's a separate topic.

Notice how imams are not celibate like Catholic priests. In fact celibacy isn't even a thing in Islam. You're actively encouraged to get into a relationship and get married so you can fulfill your sexual desires. There's even a prophetic quote that says getting married is half of your religion. It's that important. Of course some things like drinking is not allowed even if you desire it and that's just something you have to deal with. But even if you cave it's not the end of the world because the grading system is heavily curved in your favor.

Having desires is natural and human and it's even ok to indulge in them every once in a while in a healthy way.

The Islamic term for this is nafs which means "self" or sometimes "ego". So fulfilling human desires is filling your nafs. But just like overfilling your stomach can be bad, overfilling your nafs is also bad so you need to practice discipline in not getting carried away.

hd4
That sounds like you're coming at this from a similar standpoint to one of the other major religions which I would rather not mention as I don't want to start a religious war here.

In Islam you're not hated or judged for what you call your true feelings. You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around. Fasting is one of the things that can help with that. As for feeling invited, honestly I get why you may think that (because a lot of Muslims do a frankly terrible job of marketing) but that's not how Islam looks at people, it doesn't look at people as unchanging monoliths, instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter. Basically your inner reality is between you and God. Islam fully understands people have all sorts of desires, lusts, etc, the thing is in Islam you aren't cursed for having those desires, but for acting upon them rather than gaining control over them. HTH.

counttheforks
So you are saying they are invited as long as they are willing to endure people trying to change them?
hd4
No I didn't say that at all, and that's a petulant response honestly. Re-read my comment. I said Islam instructs people to make their feelings subordinate to them rather than the other way around. The other replies to the GP were not so different from what I'm saying. You're hardly required to state your sexual orientation each time you pray, if that's the sort of line of reasoning you're taking here.
counttheforks
Perhaps I misunderstood you? What did you mean with

> instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter

I assumed you meant that people will be welcomed because they are a blank slate that can be written upon by those seeking to influence them.

biorach
I read it as you are your own blank slate to write on as you choose
nashashmi
Lol, Blank slate does not mean for others to write on you. Blank slate means for you to be free of your own tendencies and not be beholden to your desires. And able to write your own Character.
hd4
(in reply to the post you just sent) I can't actually reply to comments that far down, I guess that's a HN quirk I didn't notice all this time until just now but yeah I also just covered that in a reply to someone else https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35657964
abeppu
> you aren't cursed for having those desires, but for acting upon them

That sounds exactly as repressive and hateful that other major religion, as well as historical laws which punished homosexual acts in many western countries. You have highlighted the difference between our desires and our behavior, but you seem to deliberately avoid acknowledging that straight people are permitted an institution in which their desires can be met within constraints, but gay people are not.

"You're invited to participate in our faith so long as you scrupulously act like someone else for your whole life" sounds a lot like an unvitation.

hd4
Islam pretty much is a framework for how you deal with God and for how your life here and hereafter will be according to that relationship. That's all it is.

You also acknowledge that even straight people have constraints in Islam, i.e. no sleeping around etc, why not also argue that it's somehow terrible that straight people have to repress their desire to fornicate?

"You're invited to participate in our faith so long as you turn your focus away from your base desires and towards God and the hereafter"

You're insinuating that you're being targeted or singled out whereas Islam "blanket-bans" entire categories of what are considered regressive behaviours such as overeating, you're not being targeted here, so can you stop with the victim complex please? Islam is as against environmental destruction, abuse of animals or overeating as much as it is against what it sees as wrongful sexual desire. What I feel like is being missed for the trees here is that the "holisticness" of Islam. It's against what it sees as destructive behavior, without prejudicing or singling out any specific group. Look at the higher purpose here.

abeppu
I've said your description sounds "exactly as repressive and hateful" as another major religion and the laws of many western states until relatively recently. You're insinuating that Islam is being targeted or singled out whereas I will blanket label as homophobic any regime which masquerades as being even-handed because they generously permit queer people to pretend to be straight, so can you stop with the victim complex please?

Liberal humanism is against what it sees as destructive and oppressive behavior, without prejudicing or singling out any specific group. Look at the higher purpose here.

loo
You've buried the lede that the core framework does see homosexual behavior as "wrongful sexual desire", "regressive behaviour".

You can accept that or not, but it's disingenuous to equate asking gays never to have sexual or romantic relationships, to asking non-gay people just to curb excess.

That's not an equal imposition, it feels like self-equivocating ad-hominem to read "you're not being targeted here, so can you stop with the victim complex please?"

If you agree that it's better for gay people to never experience intimacy, please just say so, without labelling the concern (that gay people may feel less invited) as ridiculous

nashashmi
Someone who has a thirst for illicit relationship with women must also refrain from doing so.

Forbidding a person from lusting anyone other than spouse whether they like it or not is no different than forbidding a person from having gay desires. And no amount of self identification can label that inhumane.

loo
Under your axioms, it may be equivalent, but I think they're mistaken.

Orientation is not a choice, and is orthogonal to identification.

I believe that same-sex relationships can be as profoundly fulfilling, enriching, and pro-social as heterosexual relationships.

That marrying a straight woman with a gay man is profoundly unfulfilling for both.

And that denying a class of people something so profound, freely enjoyed by everyone else, and which does not harm anyone else, can indeed be seen as inhumane.

nashashmi
You say orientation isn't a choice even though bisexuals at least establish it as their free choice for relationship. Fine. Even if you correctly claim that some people may have an immutable orientation, why would you in your brilliant and far reaching wisdom think it would be inhumane for the same person to be celibate from that orientation? And further think it is inhumane for the person to engage in a relationship of another orientation?

I don't believe for a second any person has this immutable orientation, straight or gay. And likewise, I don't believe it is inhumane for a person to avoid a relationship that is illegitimate. Trying to argue otherwise is like arguing the color blue can also be seen as red.

loo
I am not bisexual, but tried to be. The choice wasn't available.

Have you felt strong attraction for both sexes? If not, have you tried to?

nashashmi
If you tried to feel attraction but could not, you might need help on understanding what attraction is. Until you do, you won't know what love and harm is.
loo
You feel attraction for both sexes, but choose to ignore one?
nashashmi
You choose to behave.
loo
We are here. We do not harm each other. We do not harm other people. I believe God wills it. Peace, Nas.
twojacobtwo
>you are seen as a blank slate

To me, this is just another angle of what the parent comment was talking about. We are not blank slates. We have millions of years of evolutionary instinct and genetics/epigenetics built into us AND we have everything we are fed (literally and figuratively) affecting us before we even get a chance to start thinking about 'who' or 'what' we are.

The blank slate line of thinking is what conservatives in the US implicitly (or explicitly) use to make the claim that being gay is a choice. It seems that it's just another way to justify punishing people for things that may be beyond their control, because if we are blank slates, then everything about you is your own fault.

Obviously there are aspects about ourselves that we can change, but the blank slate ideal is a dangerous slope to slide down.

>You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around

Genuine question: How is this different from saying "it's not bad to be gay, it's just bad to not repress your feelings and never act on them", as is a common (paraphrased) refrain among those who are anti-lgbt?

hd4
To clarify, a blank state in your relationship with God. Like, you aren't judged for being a certain sexual way until you actually act on it (or choose to not act on it).
hd4
> Genuine question: How is this different from saying "it's not bad to be gay, it's just bad to not repress your feelings and never act on them", as is a common (paraphrased) refrain among those who are anti-lgbt

I'll admit it's probably not hugely different though to my understanding Islam's purpose is more about guiding a person to have a relationship with God rather than being anti-anything, and about doing what is within one's ability to move towards that goal. Like I said in a different reply it's not like you are being singled out for hatred or anything like that, the purpose is for everyone to get themselves right with God.

j-krieger
Imagine telling people that they are cursed because they choose to love, instead of living in celibacy.

No thanks.

IMTDb
> In Islam you're not hated or judged for what you call your true feelings. You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around

To me, that sounds like a very fancy way of saying : repress your feelings and who you are to conform to an arbitrary set of rules written by one dude hundreds years ago.

Enlighten me on how are you supposed to act/feel to “gain mastery over your feeling” when said feeling is “as a male; I want to spend the rest of my life sharing experiences with this other male, intimate and not intimate, without endangering anyone else” ?

nashashmi
Repress your feelings of desire for your neighbor’s wife. Do not act on those feelings. Stay away from anything that could even slightly make you sinful or think of sinful desires.

This is a form of discipline and mastery of desires. Enlighten me how this is not what a faith built on God’s word should be commanding on any individual?

IMTDb
> Repress your feelings of desire for your neighbor’s wife. Do not act on those feelings. Stay away from anything that could even slightly make you sinful or think of sinful desires.

Why should you repress those feelings ? Unless they don't hurt you or hurt others; I see absolutely no reason to hide them or not act on them. What makes them "sinful" is you deciding they are sinful according to some made up rules you read in a book.

> Enlighten me how this is not what a faith built on God’s word should be commanding on any individual?

  - Rule nb 1: Avoid harming yourself as much as you can.
  - Rule nb 2: Avoid harming others as much as you can.
And very importantly :

  - Rule nb 3: Let others be.
nashashmi
You obviously do not believe in self control. I don't know in which culture eyeing your neighbor's wife is OK.
agumonkey
It's more subtle than this. Your brain can tell you to do stupid things. Not all desires are good. I can over eat, over spend, over work or procrastinate. And that's not even going into deeper brain reflex or addiction. And then you have actual neurology.

I'm not a religious person, but I believe (sic) that behind fasting periods, there's a training around the theme of balance.

mensetmanusman
Hate is natural, just look at history. Practicing restraint from natural feelings like hate is a purpose of fasting. Do note, it has been an organized practice in western civilization centuries longer than even Islam has existed.
cat_plus_plus
You got to live and let live, otherwise you are acting no different than them. Greta Thunberg chooses to repress her desires to eat meat or travel and see the world for something she sees as greater good. When she gets older, she may well decide against having children to keep human footprint on the planet smaller. I am not doing any such things myself and I don't accept rewilding as an intrinsic goal of environmentalism. I believe that humans are the apex species on the planet and, like all such species, are primarily concerned with our own thriving - which may involve conservation but not self denial.

But, I am not going to try to stop her or make her life difficult with constant needling. Just like you shouldn't stop those who are willing to constrain their own sexuality for the sake of avoiding what they perceive as spiritual pollution, just like Greta is willing to constrain herself to avoid environmental pollution. To each their own, and for some living up according to their idea of honor is a greater comfort than more direct gratification. In time, we all learn something valuable even from those we don't agree with.

Can we however agree that America and other countries that embraced Western culture are great because you can live your life as you want and observant Muslims can live their lives as they want?

zdragnar
You've completely missed the mark. Life is full of contradictory desires. I would love to have a lean, muscular body. I also love pizza.

Fasting is a practice of discipline; consciously choosing to forgo one thing to focus on another. You don't not eat because God or Allah or Buddha or whomever actually care that you didn't eat. You don't eat to focus on mastering your own desires such that you can better your own mindfulness of adherence to the other strictures of your faith during your daily life, even when you are not fasting.

The reason many religions focus on fasting is that it is a common and simple way to be aware of a temptation and choose to not give into it.

Edit: I should add, in case my point wasn't obvious, that none of the above has to do with you or anyone else. It is purely a personal thing.

Anyone who brags about how much religious fasting they are doing are just showing that they have been wasting their time and have gotten nothing from it.

n1b0m
I find the lack of sleep the hardest. You don’t really miss the lack of food or water unless you’re in a hot climate.
throwaway128128
You sleep less during Ramadan?
smusamashah
Depends on which part of the big ball you are located. If the nights are smaller for you, there isn't really a way to get good long sleep.
n1b0m
Yes, especially near the end. You need to stop eating when the first rays of light can be seen which is a few hours before sunrise. As this starts becoming earlier and earlier you get to a point where it’s hardly worth going to sleep and waking up to eat. Also, you’re in the mosque till late for night prayers.
peanuty1
Fasting from sexual desires is the hardest part for me.
BossingAround
It's from sunrise to sunset, no? Can't you get it on at night instead of during the day?
vladvasiliu
Don't know how this works for Muslims, but if it's anything like for Christians, the goal is to not have the desires to begin with, not just refrain from acting on them (though that's a good start).
Aerbil313
How can average Joe have no desires? I understand and know that monk-like complete refrain from worldy pleasures really leads to having no desires at all (a type of ego-death), and this has some place in Islam too, although it is not obligatory for every muslim. In Ramadan, the goal for a muslim is to not act upon forbidden desires for Allah’s sake.
35208654
I’m skeptical of this point. Growing up Baptist, I was taught that temptation itself is not a sin because Christ was sinless and he was tempted in the desert by the devil.
BossingAround
> the goal is to not have the desires to begin with

Which is an empty exercise. You can't "stop having desires" for a month. Just another ritual to control the population, huh?

muzani
Technically, yes. Many treat it similar to NNN, though. As in sex with spouses is fine, but they take advantage of the holy month to quit pornography.
jimmyed
Fasting is a great idea, but most of the Muslim friends I have eat through out the night after breaking the fast at sunset. I don't think that is very healthy.
hazn
always embrace the idea, never embrace the people. Eid Mubarak!
amriksohata
Its not particularly healthy, though many ancient cultures prior to Islam have used fasting as part of a way to cleansing of the gut. The relevance to the moon is also from Pagan cultures
nullchan
Have you ever occurred to you that it might be the other way around? There was always one monotheistic religion and God, but then things got sidetracked and people started making stuff up.

Also, Moon is relevant in Islam, as a calendar and timekeeping, nothing to be worshipped.

Also, All Monotheistic Religions have had fasting (the 3 big ones that survived so far) but again, the worst enemy of the people is their own selves and not the devil, and thus they modified what was given to them.

simiones
> There was always one monotheistic religion and God, but then things got sidetracked and people started making stuff up.

We know for a fact that this is false. For example, the Egyptians were building the pyramids and worshipping their gods at least a thousand year before any known monotheistic religion. The native people of Australia have even older polytheistic religions.

regularfry
The ancient Egyptians were spectacularly insular and xenophobic, though. If anyone was going to make up their own belief system, probably out of spite, it's them.

What evidence there is specifically in this case suggests that the monotheistic middle eastern religions were derived from the evolution of a polytheistic belief system into a monotheistic one via a stopping-off point that acknowledged multiple deities, but consistently only worshipped one of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh are worth a read, and there are several references to multiple gods in the Old Testament, often in the PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE OTHER GODS BEHIND THE CURTAIN sense rather than as direct callouts, as you'd expect.

So unless we might mean that the sidetracking happened before the archaeological record of Canaanite polytheism starts, it's not really tenable as a suggestion.

I do not say this to devalue or challenge anyone's beliefs today; just that ignoring facts has a tendency not to go well. The moral and personal value of religious belief need not, to my mind, lean on historical record for its validity.

pazimzadeh
Look into Zoroastrianism, the grand-daddy of monotheistic religions. About 1800 years before Islam. They didn't fast more than one day a year, if that.

"In Zoroastrianism or Mazdaism, however, fasting has been implicitly rejected throughout the faith’s history. Zoroastrian doctrine perceives no disjunction between spirit and matter along lines of good and evil; rather, it regards both as essential for achieving piety and both as susceptible to unrighteousness. Hence, Zoroastrians believe that the body should function as a means by which the soul can fight evil and regard any action that physically weakens the body as sinful. Moreover, sex is viewed as essential for procreation which brings more believers into the world. Standard or Young Avestan texts such as the Vidēvdād (Avesta, ed. Geldner, 3.33, 4.48, 7.70) emphasized that eating was essential for life, claimed consumption of meat enhanced spiritual perception, and suggested hunger and thirst caused much suffering. Pahlavi commentaries continued this anti-ascetic theme, stressing the notion of moderation or paymān between gluttony and privation in partaking of food, drink, and sex. Piety was said to result from not fretting about moderate consumption, and deviation from this mean was equated with concupiscence (Dēnkard, ed. Madan, pp. 267, 295)." https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/fasting

Then Mani came along, introduced fasting. It was the main rival to Christianity before Islam came along. Both Islam and Christianity are heavily influenced by Mani and vice versa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

paulryanrogers
> Have you ever occurred to you that it might be the other way around? There was always one monotheistic religion and God, but then things got sidetracked and people started making stuff up.

After 30 years of trying, I'm pretty sure I can't believe any religion was ever true. It's literally all made up, and the only bits that survive are the unfalsifiable parts or rely on nostalgia or ignorance.

joezydeco
My daughter is on a high school sports team with a number of Muslim girls and it was painful to watch these girls struggle through an after school practice with no access to water and no food all day.
kif
I don't think that's healthy either. For instance, I broke the fast on sunset, with water, some fruits and something else I don't remember. In the morning I started the fast with a couple of dates, a handful of shelled peanuts, and water.

By the time Eid comes, I feel my "hunger hormones" have gone back to normal, allowing me to get full with just the amount I need. No more, no less.

velid0
Eid mubarak gençler!
omneity
Eid Mubarak Said, back at you and to everyone in HN. In our traditions this is also a day of honey and almond-paste based sweets.

For anyone currently in Berlin who wants to try the moroccan Eid experience, hit me up! And make sure you’re ready for an exquisite sweetness rush :)

mdp2021
If you involve qatayef, cheveux d'ange, you are really tempting to drive...

Present in spirit, if not in flesh, mate! Cheers.

omneity
Cheers mate, another time!
CommanderData
Eid mubarak fellow HNers. Hope you enjoy your day of tradition!
mcphage
(Can we get this un-flagged?)
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Aeolun
Eid Mubarak!

> no food or water

But really no water? That doesn’t sound healthy. Of course you can easily make it through a day without fluids but…

IndigoIncognito
People sit exams during ramadan, I don't know how
kioleanu
In Germany, Muslim students had their exams excused this week, when everyone else wrote them. They can take them next week
IndigoIncognito
I wonder why, Muslims only make up 5% of Germany's population, fiscally this wouldn't make much sense given that they would have to make a second exam paper & provide more labour
tstrimple
For some people, not everything is reduced to being as cost effective as possible.
IndigoIncognito
Come to think of it, it was quite nice how they accommodated Muslims; however, they could have just postponed the exams.
lanstin
the German's regain some reputation for hospitality.
elashri
I had 12 years of pre-college education, 4 for university, 2 for Masters and 2 years of classes in my PhD ( I am candidate now) and I think I had exams while I was fasting in each year and it wasn't a big deal. I rarely even see a Muslim student break fast for exams. And I think people saying they request accommodation this week, that's usually because of Eid and the couple of nights before that we believe it is the night that quran was revealed to the prophet Mohamed, so people want to pray more at night (it is a probability not specific night from 21,23,25,27 and 29 of Ramadan)
permalac
How does your focus evolve or progress while fasting? Any relevant difference between the first days and the last days?
Aerbil313
Simply, when you eat 3 meals a day, your body and mind is way less performant than what it could be in a good portion the day. So having all daytime fully productive helps. I personally don’t feel any desire to eat or drink after 1st day.
hqudsi
People play professional sports while fasting during Ramadan. I have no idea how they do it but having access to nutritionists probably helps.
imjonse
Religious fasts are not held for health reasons :)
mdp2021
Some of them are still for reasons within the range of "health".
m5r
That's usually the first question that pops up when explaining it to non-Muslims haha but yes, really, no water either.
bena
From sunrise to sunset.

Today, sunrise was about 6:30am and sunset will be about 7:30pm. That's only 11 hours with no food or water.

Ratavata
That's 13 hours.
bena
Yeah, I subtracted instead of added for some reason. Good catch.
somedude895
Fun fact: The start and end of Ramadan shifts by something like two weeks each year. It was from 22 March to 20 April this year and 1 April to 1 May last year. So muslims in the northern hemisphere who are growing up or are very old now have it a bit easier since each year it's going more into Spring/Winter. I remember growing up in Europe we'd have one or two muslim kids in our class and I was horrified because they weren't allowed to drink any water on the hottest summer days.
psyfi
Not unhealthy, unless you don't drink enough before dawn
kif
It also depends on the level of activity, as with any other thing. Personally I've been well-hydrated throughout the days, going to the loo quite often.
xeromal
I'm not a muslim, but I've done ramadan for my own edification and really it seems fine. Ramadan isn't prescribed for anyone who's on prescriptions or unhealthy. The worlds top soccer players fast and are still competitive. On top of that, a large part of the middle east was conquered while the soldiers were fasting.

The human body is quite capable of more than we give it.

joshmanders
I think society has gotten to a point that if we don't have 3 "well balanced meals" daily, drink a gallon of water a day, you're living unhealthy and bad.

But people don't realize that fasting is important to your body... We store fat to use during that time... That's the whole point of storing fat. Energy and that while you don't have it.

12 hours a day is absolute cake-walk for our bodies.

xeromal
Yeah, fasting is great for letting our bodies recalibrate. 12 hours is nothing. It's parroted a lot but a large UK gentleman went an entire year on multivitamins, water, and a handful of other minerals to lose weight with no damage to his body. He was under doctor supervision so self-managed fasting is probably between 12 hours and 365 days.
0xbadcafebee
To be fully hydrated you need to drink water for 24 hours in advance. If you drink a ton of water before sunrise and after sunset, every day, you can still be properly hydrated. Not ideal of course, but not necessarily unhealthy.
mkoubaa
Within 5 days I'm fully adjusted but there are some symptoms of dehydration before that.

Leads me to doubt the conventional wisdom these days of "drink gallons of water per day to have a chance of being healthy"

hqudsi
As long as you are properly hydrated before it's really not that bad.

Even this Ramadan, when I went to pee later in the day, the color wasn't dark implying I wasn't that dehydrated.

Aerbil313
It’s fine bro! Like 2 billion people including me does it every single year. Nothing happens. You just drink at night more. We’re perfectly healthy.
aws_ls
Good for you. But please don't generalize it for every one. Lack of water intake does multiply the hardship many folds. Especially now, when Ramzan(or Ramadan) falling in summer in the northern hemisphere.

Know people who have had strokes or break the fast due to extreme hardship. Domestic helps who are Muslims, or people doing physical labor, simply can't observe it. Its one of the hardest fasts there is, and restraint from drinking water is the main reason.

Aerbil313
I know, but if it poses a real and serious health risk you are religiously prohibited from fasting. Islam prioritizes health in this situation. So it’s not that much of a concern. In my country, physical laborers also fast and I didn’t heard one breaking fast due to hardship.
jacooper
Another note, one of the main ideas of Ramadan is to experience the struggle of the poor, who can't find food to eat.

> its purpose being to cleanse the soul by freeing it from harmful impurities. Muslims believe that Ramadan teaches them to practice self-discipline, self-control,[65] sacrifice, and empathy for those who are less fortunate, thus encouraging actions of generosity and compulsory charity (zakat).[66]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan

2b3a51
UK Midlands city of a million, neighbourhood close to city centre with a majority(?) Muslim population drawn from diverse ethnic traditions.

The guys with the buckets have been out on most main roads all through the month - respectfully offering the chance to donate - no 'compulsion' in evidence. People are generous round here. I pop my coins in and others are putting in fivers and tenners.

Definitely party time here at the moment. Excited children and huge amounts of food being cooked.

rsynnott
As I understand it, ‘compulsory’ here means that it’s a religious obligation, in general, not that it is legally enforced.
hd4
Hate to be that guy, but that's not at all what Islam says about why fasting was prescribed, and it's actually super clear about the purpose. I mean this is pretty basic, so I don't know why I keep hearing that same old line.

"O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may develop God-consciousness." https://quran.com/2/183

edmundsauto
I am not a religious scholar, but wouldn't God-consciousness include having empathy for all beings? I would partially define being enlightened as being able to experience everything in creation.
hd4
I'm not a religious scholar either, but if we're discussing what Islam says is the purpose of fasting, then yeah it couldn't be clearer in that verse. If you want to derive a sense of compassion for all beings from the idea of God-consciousness/piety/taqwa, then yeah you may have a point that it is a secondary effect of fasting, but Arabic has adequate expressiveness to cater for that if that was the prime motive, so I disagree that that is the central reason for fasting.
nurettin
> wouldn't God-consciousness include having empathy for all beings?

A rabbit or a fruit isn't going to appreciate your understanding of its worldly struggles while you eat them, so why does it even matter?

timinou
As an Arabic speaker, the verse in the Qur'an means to me that fasting helps you remember Allah.

Islam has no concept of empathy for all beings, or enlightenment really. The assumption is that without the fear of God and Hell, people would sin by default, and religious practices are meant to please God.

Often progressive Muslims mention Sufis but they have been persecuted enough, for holding God-consciousness type beliefs amongst others, to consider them a different thing altogether.

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rvense
Do you have a source beyond your own "clear" interpretation of this verse? I think if you dig deeper you will find that it's what the tradition says, what the recognized commentary on these verses say, and certainly if you ask Muslims what they think it's about, this is what they'll point to. That matters too.
hd4
I'm not interpreting the verse, I'm telling you what's there, just read the verse, go through all the various translations. No interpretation necessary. Like I said, Arabic is adequately expressive to just say "fasting is about reminding you poor people are suffering" if that's what the purpose was. No need to equivocate. Even the commentary is secondary to what the verse actually clearly says. If a verse says "God is One", do we really need a commentary to point out where there could be room for 2 Gods?
jacooper
Quran isn't like normal Arabic. Its interpreted differently.
zvmaz
Ramadan has little to do with intermittent fasting: the former is a religious prescription enforced by law in some countries [1], the latter is completely up to the individual.

Happy Eid.

[1] https://www-lepoint-fr.translate.goog/monde/algerie-2-ans-de...

axus
Fasting is one of the 5 pillars of Islam. Maybe someone could explain what "non-intermittent" fasting would be?
skinkestek
I'd say the difference is if there is some regularity to it.

Intermittent fasting can be fasting Monday to Friday and only eating in the weekends like how I think one HN-er described his 5/2 diet.

It can be OMAD (one meal a day) or something else. The main thing is you fast and stop fasting repeatedly.

None-intermittent fasting is when you just skip food for a day like I did last week or for a few days like I did as a teenager.

broast
An important distinction is while fasting for Ramadan, you can't ingest anything at all, including water. Unlike intermittent fasting where practitioners might still have 0 calorie coffee to stay stimulated, and water to stay hydrated.
skinkestek
Agreed. I think it is correct to say that Ramadan fasting is intermittent but intermittent fasting is not Ramadan fasting, except the subset of fasting that is Muslims fasting during Ramadan.

I also think some others, among them Christians, fast completely.

Personally I am Christian but when I fast, the vast majority of the times it has been because I was bored or needed to focus, and I didn't punish myself by breaking fast once a day but just went without food a day or two or three until I became bored of that too or family demanded I ate.

qntty
Intermittent fasting is when you fast intermittently
iso1631
Well if going 10 hours (say in Scotland in winter) without food is "fasting", I do that pretty much every day, I rarely eat or drink between 2200 and 0900, and rarely eat between 2000 and about 1230

Not convinced that not drinking water during the day is a good idea, especially in hot countries

wincy
I roomed with two Saudis in college. They just become nocturnal and sleep all day.
iso1631
Sounds like the Eruv lines some Jewish communities put up to get away with "breaking the rules", surely it somewhat misses the point
shepherdjerred
You're right, most people do...

> Breakfast is the first meal of the day usually eaten in the morning. The word in English refers to breaking the fasting period of the previous night.

mdp2021
To be honest, "breakfast" was more probably originally meant as "breaking the discipline" (see form "fasten"), and only then translated to the action without general involvement of discipline.
JumpinJack_Cash
> > enforced by law in some countries

"Enforced by law"...if you want to eat in the privacy of your home that's between yourself and Allah.

And besides...lockdowns were also enforced by law, but the law will never have enough men to police all the population, it would require a 1:1 ratio or thereabout.

That's why the physical world is important as opposed to the virtual world where the ratio can be reduced drastically, that's also why I never understood the fixation with the 2nd amendment beyond a certain treshold more stuff and provisions are only a waste of money.

beebmam
I think the point is: should we really be enforcing religious laws in our societies? Seems deeply coercive and unethical
JumpinJack_Cash
There will always be somebody who believes in their stuff so much that will try to enforce on others.

And that type of personality usually also aggregates in groups.

You are essentially able to escape from them as long as you are in the physical world, but in the virtual world everything can be policed much more easily.

mardifoufs
You can eat in practically every muslim country during ramadan, if you aren't muslim. It will be hard to find open restaurants during the day, but no one will bother a non-muslim about eating openly.
tildef
Eid Mubarak everyone!
adityapurwa
Even deeper, the essence of Ramadan is to not eat and drink while you need it the most, during the day, where you work and get tired.

It resonates with the feeling of holding your anger even when you have the rights to be angry. Holding your arrogance when faced against someone who had less money, fame, etc, than you.

And Ramadan fasting is more than just not eating and drinking. You are not allowed to lie, to be angry, to speaks foul/dirty.

Eid Mubarak! Taqabalallah!

zvmaz
A study on judicial rulings show a link between rulings and the time they have been issued between food breaks [1]. It appears that the more hungry the judges are, the less they show clemency.

Similarly, living in a Mulsim country, I have not observed the virtues that supposedly stem from religious fasting.

[1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1018033108

adityapurwa
I mean its still our choices whether to fast and hold our urge to eat even when we needed it the most (hot day, tired).

The same that its our choices whether to hold our anger and resolve things peacefully and objectively (someone messed up at work, we have the power to blame and fire them).

Ramadan fasting is just a part of islamic practice, just doing Ramadan fasting might not give any virtues. But Islam also teaches to treat everyone objectively, be patient, hold anger, etc.

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