An odd takeaway. The article seems to imply that most of their issues stem from spam and low effort questions/answers. Both from users and their own AI. More gatekeeping might have been the solution here.
By making it harder for people to use the site casually, you tip the balance in favor of spammers and away from people who actually have an interest, and therefore usually some knowledge, on a given subject.
When I visit Quora, mainly through it being a result for something I've searched for on Google, I can never quite understand what's the question, the answer, and what's an answer to something completely different. So I've never felt compelled to stay or join myself.
Also, for a while I just hit a login wall, which of course makes you not click a link there the next time.
There's a toggle on top left that's by default set to "all related", as in answers to the question asked + a bunch of answers to things you're definitely not looking for, but are tangentially related.
If you switch the toggle to "answers", you only get answers to the question.
I'm not here to defend Quora, but my speculation is that Google's preference for long-form content is equally to blame.
Basically the same reason as recipes that start with a long life story: Google prefers pages with lots of content, even if 10% of it is actually useful to anyone. So a page with 50+ "answers" is preferable to a page with two actual answers.
And that’s how Google search will be overtaken by GPT with ease. People want answers, not an ad-driven algorithm’s desire for content that is long enough to support more ads.
I was recently involved in a decision of whether or not to make a nascent community SEO-friendly, which meant significant changes to the UI and reduced UX. In the end the conclusion was "f... SEO, let's build something good instead and have users come back because of that".
> And that’s how Google search will be overtaken by GPT with ease.
Yes if the LLMs are designed to give you the best results. Right now, it’s a honey moon phase for consumers, when there’s a fierce competitive race. But just like any other tech its deployment and realization is governed by incentives. If we get an entrenched LLM monopolist I don’t think it’ll be any different from a search monopolist. Perhaps worse.
You could make the same argument for search or many other products - but it doesn’t hold in practice. If the commercial closed one is more powerful and/or convenient people will not choose freedom. There’s a reason these companies are getting drenched in investor money.
I can think of a thousand ways that they could get that convenience edge against open models. For instance, when LLMs are personalized based on your own history, chats etc people won’t give those conveniences up. And that data would not be accessible to the open models, at least not seamlessly.
They most likely also prefer titles that get clicked.
But the best results are those where the user uses the back button and clicks something else. They must not click back within n seconds of course. The user has to spend a minimum amount of time on the almost useless page.
I got this feeling looking for many things. I know there are pages but get many results very very close to what I was looking for.
Dubious reversal of key words where "how to turn a car into an airplane" becomes "how to turn an airplane into a car"
Then people start making perfect SEO pages like "how to style css with html"
I occasionally visit quora off of search results because I kinda got used to parsing out what I wanted, but never knew about this toggle.
I literally cannot understand how anyone thought intermixing related questions and answers together is in any way useful or beneficial to their users, especially when the default is set to ON.
Can people not really understand this? Some of those related questions are dupes, other times they are paths to rabbit holes. ycombinator does the same thing. When you guys see posts that come up that have been here before, you post links to previous discussions. I saw this recently specifically with the links to articles on Martin Couney (I had a hard time finding that because the article is so poorly worded).
Even Reddit has linkability to detect the URL and show you an 'other discussions' lens (for Old Reddit).
Granted, this is a slight taxonomy difference of 'other discussions' of the same exact topic, vs other discussions related to your topic. But I think it's a useful and helpful feature.
The problem is that there's no continuity between what is related and what is an answer to the question asked. Related answers are intermixed with real answers at the same level. You can only tell something is a real answer by the absence of bold text and presence of light grey text.
The link upthread isn't a good example, because the question is so basic it's easy for them to have a lot of related (duplicate) questions and answers. When the topic requires more nuance or is more specific, then the related questions and answers really aren't related at all, and they just add a bunch of useless noise.
hackere news isn't a question / answer site. I don't come here with the same expectations that I do when I go to something like stack overflow or quora.
Ironically, if I do a google search for something and ycombinator comes up in the results, the link is directly to the comment that is relevant- not to the top level of the article with all of the related sibling comments. If anything, from that perspective hacker news is actually a better question and answer site than quora.
Seems wild to put a bunch of “related” answers that are relationship advice, movie questions and other things when you look up things like programming questions.
I can understand the rabbit hole thing. Never thought about that. That they think of themselves as TikTok and not stack overflow or Reddit.
Yeah, this is the main problem I have with Quora. You go to a thread to look for answers to a question, then find the platform has merged in a bunch of answers to related questions alongside the ones I'm actually there to read.
For example, I found this random question just now:
* 'What is blockchain technology and how does it work?'
* 'What is blockchain technology, could you explain it in an easy way?'
* 'What is a blockchain?'
So you'll see a lot of answers... which may or may not actually be for the question you were interested in. Or which may explain it in a weird way, since the actual question they answered was worded very differently.
At least with StackOverflow you know that the answers are all related to the same question.
>At least with StackOverflow you know that the answers are all related to the same question.
I don't know, most StackOverflow answers I run into are "closed as duplicate of <not my question>" or "closed as duplicate of <how would I have solved my problem 8 years ago with only the tools available then>"
Slightly open-ended doesn't seem to be a problem for me on SO. Where I've really had a problem is the admins not reading the question properly then closing it as already answered elsewhere. I find that screeching like a banshee gets it apologetically reopened. Bit frustrating but a flawed SO is better than no SO at all.
I really fail to understand how a company can consciously guide itself to degrade so badly. Like these were actual decisions of meetings and the results of a ton of work of teams to implement. And it destroyed the site.
Either the CEO sees what’s going on and is fine with it mean it is their vision, they are putting their feet up and don’t care, or they are not fine with it and have no control over the company.
> they are not fine with it and have no control over the company
something something "all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way"
In some places, the "vision" is sufficiently vague that all sorts of dumb decisions can be justified by it.
Or the CEO is so stupid that he only listens to his direct reports, who all tell him everything is under control. And when they tell him not to "micromanage" he listens and backs off.
You can't make any universal statements about this.
Can't see a something like "show answers to related questions directly under a single answer to the intended question" being a middle-manager decision.
That’s exactly my experience so I just avoided quora, for some reason the question I was looking at had many answers to different questions below, after scrolling a bit downwards something resembling a connection with the question in the form of an answer would be found but… it’s too much trouble.
I’m not sure what their business model is, I assume ads, so I always wonder what good the login wall does and making the UX so horrible. I too only ever get there from a Google search too, much like Wikipedia, but with Wikipedia I’m usually going to make a few clicks once I’m there as the related link exploration is natural. I assume quora could get more clicks out of me if it wasn’t so awful. They’ve instead taught me to never click past the initial Google link, my bounce rate is 100%.
It seems like such a missed opportunity. Even when I compare to my stack exchange usage, I’m not a registered user, I’m only ever consuming information, but I click around and they benefit through ads.
Biggest difference is Wikipedia isn't ad driven and the information on there is actually interesting, naturally drives you to explore. My bounce rate is 100% and I rarely click a Quora link if I can help it. 1% useful 99% noise.
I agree with StackExchange, sometimes the random things on the sidebar grab my attention, whether it's some random travel question, workplace, about writing/sci-fi, etc.
Pinterest is another spammy site. Same with Quora. Like what is the model here? Spam SEO, drive ad revenue? In my experience Yahoo Answers was 10x more interesting than anything Quora offers, but maybe I and others like me are the exception and companies like Quora are actually getting eyeballs with their UX and business model and that's why Yahoo Answers isn't a thing anymore.?
I’m pretty sure this is the result of a heavy A/B testing culture. Every single idea was probably increasing an important KPI. The page in it’s entirety got destroyed over time.
Couldn't agree more. It's easy to see this user hostility increase slightly, over and over across a period of years, each time having some idea that there is some short-term metric that is positively affected.
Considering I rarely understand what I'm even looking at with the mish mosh of answers, and I'm not willing to create an account, I've outright blocked Quora in my browser.
As an aside, I think the extreme enshittification of Quora basically highlights every single problem with VC-driven, growth-at-all costs, "metrics and data driven" tech platforms (as an aside, the reason I put square quotes there is not that I think metrics and data are bad, but I think most companies are not honest that they're optimizing for metrics and data that are easy to gather, while the fuzzier but actually more critical concepts of user trust and sentiment get ignored over time). I mean honestly, is there any single employee at Quora that thinks that what the site became is anything but a total shit show?
> I’m pretty sure this is the result of a heavy A/B testing culture. Every single idea was probably increasing an important KPI. The page in it’s entirety got destroyed over time.
This is the reality. Not just in Quora but all tech companies. A/B testing is used to determine how to squeeze more and more engagement, in small parts of the app. And over time the app becomes an ad factory with unrelated posts because apparently people are more engaged when they are lost and unable to find any information.
A/B tests are likely involved because no human would suggest those changes in earnest, but what metric could those tests have improved!?
Either it’s a series of unchallenged false positives, or there’s a lot about web interface that neither I nor they understand, but I would challenge the idea that is the result of a well-informed A/B testing culture. It’s the output of a thousand monkeys running a thousand tests a day for three years, and releasing anything that hits the green line.
I feel the same way about Amazon.com. It feels cluttered and messy. Most the opt-ins / opt-outs have to be read closely to make sure you're not being suckered by some dark pattern.
If you visit Amazon often enough you kinda get used to it. But a new vistor imho would be shellshocked.
I remember fondly this paragraph from the famous google platform memo:
> Jeff Bezos is an infamous micro-manager. He micro-manages every single pixel of Amazon's retail site. He hired Larry Tesler, Apple's Chief Scientist and probably the very most famous and respected human-computer interaction expert in the entire world, and then ignored every goddamn thing Larry said for three years until Larry finally -- wisely -- left the company. Larry would do these big usability studies and demonstrate beyond any shred of doubt that nobody can understand that frigging website, but Bezos just couldn't let go of those pixels, all those millions of semantics-packed pixels on the landing page. They were like millions of his own precious children. So they're all still there, and Larry is not.
The single change they made that killed the platform was changing the dropdown default from "answers to the question" to "answers to related questions".
I think it's an attempt at question deduplication where they had more confidence in that matching algo than they should have. It usually conflates two questions with similar words but very different meanings.
Yep. As a UI/UX specialist, it’s nothing short of a nightmare. I can’t decide if it’s purposeful (they’re trying to kill the site), negligent (they can’t hire or retain talent, or who they have is making bad decisions), or just full of corporate/organizational bloat (basically all decisions made by non-engineers such as stakeholders or investors designed to maximize profit and ad space).I am leaning towards bloat.
Google sending traffic to Quora, one ad-based business to another, with user being secondary and content on both being incentivized by ad clickthrough rates, is a dying paradigm. It had a good run though but I do not imagine it will be missed.
Google needs to nerf their rankings. It's essentially a near-useless click bait website for ads. Any new site with such horrible signal to noise ratio would never get such a priority in results. I can't imagine any other website linking to it, so I can't imagine how Quora remains so high anyways, even if page rank is long gone.
Reddit is the same way if you don't go to old.reddit.com. You see that there are N comments, but you only get to read the first few, and suddenly you're looking at an entirely different post. Every time I accidentally go there I get confused by it. There is no chance anybody asked for this, it's so stupid it had to come out of perversely chasing some metric.
That behaviour is complete madness. And old.reddit has pretty much the perfect interface for computer usage anyway. Why they won't just label it "desktop style" and call it a day is beyond me.
And often when you expand comment replies the comment you were looking at disappears and you have to scroll around to find it again. It must be deliberate, there's no way you accidentally make something work that poorly.
Quora also comingles ads with content, and the ads look almost identical to content. Quora has become unpleasant and unusable in the past decade, and I only end up there on accident.
I just logged in out of curiosity, and I have an avalanche of “notifications” that are just pathetic — “Dark Psychology Facts posted in a space you might like: ‘Can a human win in a battle with a hyena?’”
Yeah, the login wall made me always close the tab. I am just assuming there is still a login requirement with Quara so I still automatically close the tab.
At its peak it was considerably better than Y!A. They started with Silicon Valley luminaries (their friends) and that attracted a lot of other well educated users, especially scientists and philosophers. A lot of genuinely great content was generated.
I believe Q&A sites will inevitably degrade as the low-hanging fruit is picked early. ("How do I lose weight?" "Explain relativity" "Is God real?") It can start with great answers, but it quickly becomes repetitious. Y!A probably also had a similar phase, but by the time most people heard about it, it was already famously dumb.
Quora followed a similar path. It actually lasted longer than one might expect, in part because they threw a lot of money at it. But it is now much worse because it's better known and a more visible target to trolls and spammers. Plus it's reputation for paying people, which attracts vast amounts of minimum effort, much of it automated. (And not paying any more, but that doesn't stop people.)
If your core business product is content contributed by users... I'm turning to the opinion that you need a C-level ombudsman- / dean of contributors-type role.
Whose sole job it is to (1) figure out what contributors are thinking and want & (2) advocate for them inside the company.
Every contributor-driven platform has eventually jumped the shark, and all in exactly the same way.
Management begins to take contributions for granted. Stops caring about attracting contributors. Then focuses on revenue. Then makes changes to the platform that kill contributions, in pursuit of revenue.
And they miss so many obvious ways to placate and delight their contributors. "It'd be nice to have a mod tool that does X" shouldn't be a 3-year back burner ask.
Maybe make it harder for your company to footgun your golden goose?
Quora had one, William Gunn. He was laid off, along with the entire human moderation staff and practically all of the user-facing developers.
Quora had been going downhill for quite some time before that, as they realized they had no idea how to monetize the content and were grasping at straws. But that was the point where they appear to have pivoted entirely towards AI and continued the human generated content side on minimum life support.
Interesting reference. Non profits cannot hoard money. I believe it becomes taxable and they can lose their non profit status (i am not an expert)
Though, hoarding seems like a mischaracterization. Per the article linked, the cash burn rate is on the order of $100M/yr, having $150M in the bank is 18 months worth of funding.
The biggest gripe I read in the article is the "high" expenditure rate and how necessary it is. It seems like reasonable people may disagree on whether that spend rate is excessive.
If the expenditure rate were lower, I'd agree it would be hoarding.
If they kept expenditures low and hoarded, I would actually be fine with that and happy to contribute. I see nothing wrong with forming a large endowment for a project like Wikipedia.
I was confused about another situation - I was quite sure about this - and was incorrect. This speaks to the benefits of speaking from data and not just what you think the data was. Thank you for calling me out here, it was merited and the info was bad.
There are no limits on a nonprofit's ability to raise and maintain cash reserves; there are limits on how and to whom funds can be disbursed and (to a lesser extent) the kinds of activities that can be used to generate funds. But a nonprofit can sit on an endlessly-growing hoard of cash if that's what they (and their donors) want to do.
HAHA, apparently my comment is the number 1 result from google to the question: "can a nonprofit hoard cash", and the answer quotes me from this very thread with "Non profits cannot hoard money"
I believe I was likely incorrect and you are correct here @HillRat. The nuance where I was incorrect was if the nonprofit fails to properly pay taxes on unrelated activities - in which case the government can decide that entity is a for-profit entity. This link was helpful for me for that clarification: https://www.findlaw.com/smallbusiness/incorporation-and-lega...
I recall this being an issue for an HOA which wound up collecting more than it needed and there was concern that (A) it would be taxed & (B) nonprofit status would be lost. Paying taxes correctly is very important, but does not speak to a non-profits ability to hoard cash. My earlier comment is incorrect, I apologize for the bad information.
Their sister Wikicities / Wikia / Fandom (also relying on MediaWiki), and now owned by Texas Pacific Group, is however, another example of a platform getting enshittified.
Good to know a publicly-traded company known to censor content to be more advertiser-friendly and with notoriously predatory content discovery algorithms designed to elicit emotions to keep users coming is apparently not-for-profit if it happens to be unprofitable during the ZIRP period. Or is Facebook also not-for-profit?
If anything, Musk is less profit-oriented. Someone looking to profit off the platform wouldn't be actively driving off advertisers. But I suppose that because we must all believe that Elon Bad, he must also be the evilest capitalistest person in the whole world, and everything before him was sunshine and roses.
Obviously your post has nothing to do with Twitter being for-profit before the acquisition and Musk prioritizing profit less than his predecessors, but I'll bite.
By complying with government regulations when displaying content in their respective regions to avoid getting the entire network banned there, right. While this hit piece from a notoriously biased outlet would like to equate this with ye olde Twitter's regular practice of of suppressing or deleting content worldwide at the whim of the US government, it's obviously more transparent and fair to comply with censorship locally and provide a reason for the missing content. Reeks of "it's okay when we do it".
> Twitter being for-profit before the acquisition and Musk prioritizing profit less than his predecessors
Being unable to turn a profit is not the same as not prioritising profit.
If he’s so unconcerned with making a profit, then why weasel out from paying rent, the fired employees, and all the rest? Why be so adamant about a payed subscription? Why complain of advertisers leaving?
More importantly, why does a self-proclaimed “free speech absolutist” kowtow to an autocratic government if he’s not even concerned with profit? And why does he keep banning his own critics?
> ye olde Twitter's regular practice of of suppressing or deleting content worldwide at the whim of the US government
Here are eight more sources and a study. Surely they won’t all be “notoriously biased outlets” writing hit pieces, or is the definition for that “writes something negative about Musk”?
In fact till mid-1993, with a few unimportant exceptions (Clari-Net, early "retail" ISPs like Netcom) the entire Internet, which was already the largest network of computers by a comfortable margin, was non-profit.
Marc Bodnick was the original “community manager” and frequent contributor. He’s now working on his own social net, the first-ish of which (Telepath) already flopped.
> Every contributor-driven platform has eventually jumped the shark, and all in exactly the same way.
Do you think Wikipedia has jumped the shark? Obviously not perfect, but it's certainly a lot better than Quora in terms of accuracy. It's been around for a very long time and it doesn't seem to me like quality has decreased.
Edit: to be clear and re-iterate, I never said Wikipedia was perfect, just that it has a certain baseline, generally above where Quora is, and hasn't seemed to decline over the years.
A lot of Wikipedia entries have become extremely partisan, and kept that way by moderators who are deeply invested in certain narratives. I find it very disappointing that no countermeasures have been taken- afaik Wikipedia still works exactly like 20 years ago, a barebone wiki governed by a lot of obscure, complex and unstructured politics.
Granted, it might be the best possible way for an open-source encyclopedia to work. It is after all an incredible success. It's just pretty bad in some parts.
But to expand a bit, for example I'm annoyed at many of the entries calling their subject "conspiracy theory/ theorist". Not that conspiracy theories and their believers don't exist, but at this point it has become a highly pejorative and judgemental term to frame ideas and narratives that need to be stigmatized rather than explained. Passing judgements should not, in my view, be the primary focus of an encyclopedia entry.
What ever I answer in this case the easiest reaction will be; for you will be to judge me and lump me together with what you cal activists, and for those activists it will me easiest to put me in the same conspiracy theorist group as you. This is not a problem with Wikipedia, this is a human problem.
While I also think that article is abysmal, it does give context what to expect from people posting stuff by her. The biggest problem with your complaint is that you are not linking to an alternative, just do a fast draft on Wikipedia remove everything that you feel is not relevant and link that. Sure it will be reverted but that is probably because you first draft will not be a good article, those are evidently very hard to write when people think so differently about something.
Are any of the details that you were upset they included in her bio (e.g. that she's a contract scientist running a small business) incorrect or irrelevant? They certainly don't seem irrelevant to me, obviously they should explain what kind of scientist she is and what she does for a living — are you just mad because they happen to make her look like a less prestigious scientist and/or reliable source then you would like her to be?
Also they pretty clearly note that her doctorate in interdisciplinary studies focused on mammals as its subject, what would you have them do? Claim that her doctorate was in something it wasn't, instead of interdisciplinary studies, just to make her look better, because a doctorate in interdisciplinary studies with a focus on some particular thing is "essentially equivalent" in your mind to an actual doctorate in that thing? Or claim she focused on evolutionary biology, when not even her own blog bio claims it was about "evolutionary biology" (she implies it was about zoology or another similar field)? Why do you say evolutionary biology should be listed then? Is it just to make her sound better?
Likewise, why wouldn't the criticism section be mostly filled with what she's been criticized about the most? If most of her other work was unremarkable or solid and nobody criticized it, but she's gotten a lot of criticism for her climate change views, why wouldn't that dominate the criticism section?
And if she hasn't had much notable work outside of her business, books, dotgs, and polar bears, I'm not sure why you would expect her career or education sections to have a ton of other stuff? That's the stuff even herself bio on her blog focuses on. Like you look at the headings of her non-criticism sections and decry them as if they are obviously lacking or derogatory or something but if that's all her notable work is about, why wouldn't they be like that?
Like, your entire criticism seems at least to lack citations of why the material you are upset about shouldn't be there, and without them it really appears like you're just upset that a factual article about someone you are to some degree sympathetic with makes them look worse than you'd like.
Honestly this is my problem with a lot of people's complaints of bias. A lot of it boils down to "the facts make my side of the issue look bad, can you emphasize/deemphasize some facts for me so both sides seem equal?"
People seem to think that truly unbiased reporting makes all sides of a controversy seem equally correct and equally to have a point, but that is simply not true. Unbiased reporting is reporting the facts of the case, and if that happens to show that one side of a controversy is more correct than the others, then so be it. The job is to report the facts as best you can, and misrepresenting the facts and skewing their connotation or interpretation to make it look like a side of a controversy that doesn't have much going for it is equal to a side that has more of the facts on their side just in order to make everyone look equal would actually be biased, not the other way around. I'm not claiming the mainstream news media reports the facts of the case well, they don't, but they also fall afoul of this problem: on whatever issue the mainstream news media has decided they are going to be "impartial" on, every time they publish an article that is even slightly supportive of one side of the controversy, they feel it necessary to post an article from the other side of the controversy, even if that second article is a completely factually false, incoherent screed that has no facts or logic on its side, and treat it on supposedly equal footing in the name of impartiality. Or anytime they report on the issue they feel the need to use unnecessarily strained language to circumlocate around calling things what they actually are in order to prevent people from coming to the obvious conclusion the fact...
Ok, can you explain what is a contract scientist as opposed to a scientist? Susan Crockford on her blog defines herself as "a zoologist with 40 years of experience" and "former adjunct professor at the University of Victoria"- that sounds like a scientist to me, without any need for further qualifiers.
She also has a consulting company that specialises in identifying bone fragments of North American fish, birds and mammals- the clients are mostly universities, museums and park/ forest services. I don't see references on the company's page about searching in "the scat of wild animals for ... items", which seems at one time very specific and vague. Curious choice. (*)
More, just on the lede: "she is a blogger"- no, she also runs a blog, as many scientists do. "her blog posts on polar bear biology which are unsupported ..."- imprecise, we don't yet know what those posts are about- and yet we already know that they're "unsupported by the consensus". Ah, by the way- this is just wrong: consensus is not a support for anything- you might go with or against the consensus, certainly not look for its support.
The "Early life and education" section fails to mention the title of her doctorate thesis, but instead dedicates half of its seven lines to a completely out-of-context, minute controversy about what one "Lars Olof Bjorn" thinks of one line of one article by her in 2009.
Career section "Business" ends (after two lines) with the following sentence (again, at the same time very precise and vague): "Since the start of her career, she has worked primarily through paid contracts for specific work on a variety of topics". What is it even supposed to mean? You know, that would also apply to me. "Paid contracts" indeed, for "specific work" on "a variety of topics".
In the "Books" section, only one book is cited (Google gives me 5 or 6) and again, half of the space is dedicated to the criticism from a single person.
The "Polar bears" section is basically entirely dedicated to a controversy- and still we don't know anything about what Susan Crockford claims about polar bears, why she does it, what are her points, how does she go against the "consensus". Nothing.
I'll stop here. A cursory read is enough to understand that there has been no attempt whatsoever to approach this subject with a minimum of detachment- the entry almost reads like a parody, or a satirical piece. If you don't see it, I'm sorry, think it's a problem.
* If I can pinpoint what feels wrong with these statements, is the constant oscillation between extremely vague ("a small business", "other items", "known for posts about polar bear biology") and curiously precise ("contract scientist", "in the scat of wildlife", "gained her interest in elementary school") etc.
Essentially any issue that relates to politics or geopolitics tends to have a strong left wing bias, as if it is written from the perspective of the left wing against the right wing.
I've noticed anything copyleft-related will have edits in favour of not copyleft (e.g. MIT-style licensing) reverted, even if the pro-copyleft arguments are patently false in that case, or otherwise biased (e.g. mentioning specifically copyleft, but not alternatives).
This is typically done in under the guise of notability ("GPL/copyleft is notable, other alternatives aren't").
Wikipedia is in the business of paying secret writers for content to sway opinions, politically. Of course they have jumped the shark, they’re basically working for agencies.
Wikipedia is great for non political, non-controversial topics, such as sciences. I wouldn't trust it on active politicians or other figures of public interest.
One major problem is that you need to submit references to back up any claim. PR companies can easily buy an article in a fringe news site and them modify Wikipedia with a reference to that article. It is almost impossible to roll back.
I once tried to update a company page to state they were going through redundancies. I was personally affected by this, and had internal emails to back this up. However, lacking a public reference it was rolled back.
The problem is that PR companies can push out whatever they want, where as an ordinary individual with personal knowledge of a topic, can't. It means many Wiki articles on person or companies, are often glorified advertisements, rather than encyclopedic entries.
I've thought a two/three-lens Wikipedia split was needed to handle this, because each brings its benefits.
I remember when nascent Wikipedia had user-contributed content, and the niche articles were way more interesting and detailed. Though at the cost of inaccuracy.
Now, the submarine PR being backfed into it makes cited content pretty beige.
Something like (1) a non-reader-visible, upstream Wikifacts + (2) a community-driven, laxer Wikiprototype + (3) an authoritative, cited Wikipedia.
Yes, I am not necessarily disagreeing with this approach. The problem is the imbalance. A PR company can buy a news article, link it and update a Wikipedia page. It means the balance is in favour of big corporations and wealthy individuals.
I added Dimon as short name for Dmitry in RU, referenced YT video with 40M views were Dimon was short name for Dmitry, video was named "He is not Dimon" for person with official name Dmitry, who was prime minister of Russia. I am Dmitry too btw, I know Dimon is also in Belarus.
Was reverted as that was not reference to some book or sciene article.
Never contributed after that. May be one or 2 graph theory improvements.
Actually it is really hard if you work for a company and you need some amends on Wikipedia.
Imagine your quite large company has a small guitar shop on the other side of the globe that has the same name.
You just want a disambiguation so nobody thinks your company is this little guitar shop. You can't just edit it yourself, you need to find a Wikipedia expert and bribe them to somehow help with your plight. It is easy to imagine that a vast PR company will wave a magic wand, but it is not always like that.
An amusing discussion where the OP says Wikipedia is here to stay, and every answer is downvoted, most of them flagged. All of them voicing concerns of some validity.
This is super representative of that happens on Wikipedia.
It is well-known that people radicalize when they are excluded from political process.
Wikipedia is notorious for excluding ordinary contributors from the process. Anybody can revert your change and that takes precedence over what you did, and there is no obvious appeal process for you, but de facto there is for the well-connected long-time editors. They can always gather some cavalry and run you over.
So they should probably do what Stack Overflow tried to do, and explicitly say that new users / infrequent contributors have to receive more care, that needs to be provided by veterans / frequent contributors, as well as provide mechanisms to do so.
Otherwise it is not a wikipedia that everyone can edit, rather a wikipedia written by a cabal who is also contains a large number of biased people, often getting direct or indirect funding from maintaining that bias.
StackOverflow also raises the bar for becoming a contributor. You can't start commenting until you have some upvotes on answers or questions for instance.
I think these things turn out to be a bit important.
StackOverflow's priorities shown through this gating make little sense to me, and they spectacularly fail at communicating to new users what the norms of the site are, which is one big reason why so many people have a story of a bad experience of it.
I like Wikipedia and think it is still one of the better user contribution sites on the web.
However, having been a long time contributor to [Current Events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events) (fought over because of news relevancy), there have been waves of sock puppeting and attempts to constantly revoke all edits from certain users, that often make you not want to contribute.
There is also this editorial talking about spending that makes some arguments about current issues with Wikipedia. Namely, that there's a lot of money going in, and not a lot of requested feature development. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...
Wikipedia is extremely hard to edit these days, and some of the other language Wikipedias are dominated by ill intended accounts. The Portuguese language Wikipedia is censored by mods that work for local politicians in Portugal. It’s virtually impossible to add corruption cases to their page.
So now you have this bizarro world where English language pages on Portuguese politicians have corruption scandals but Portuguese language do not.
Its almost as if user-created-content sites are un-MBA-able... in the way that MBAs are cloned to measure only certain metrics in a soulless gaze toward a self-exit from the growth hocky stick launching pad they are attempting to build on bad faith and anti-patterns...
Reddit is a cluster that manages to ONLY keep going because of how agressive mods can be about their positions, but as we have seen time in, time out, MODs positions get molested by ADMINs and ADMINs posing as MODs. MODs on the take.
The point being that when Reddit IPOs - there are undoubtedly mods who have/are/will-be compensated/profit when IPO hits.
Facebook: social over random content. Streaming services: commissioned content. Arguably non-monetized YouTube: where its used simply for its utility of serving video.
Yes, but all of this "content"* comes from contributors, who else ??
Streaming services (you mean 5he likes of Netflix ?) are arguably not platforms, because they are much closer to distributors or even publishers (rather than just editors, sometimes), with all the extra legal issues and contract-signing that come with that.
*"content" is really corporate-speak, I would hate my works to be called that :
I have no experience running a site centered on user generated content, but it seems to me that the biggest problem/threat to any of them is the people who start showing up once it gains traction and becomes more popular.
Early users are a different band of the population, on every successful platform from StackOverflow to Uber they create a particular culture which is impossible to maintain as the general public arrives in large numbers.
To me personally, no, not better, but at one time the phrase “ride share” had a lot more meaning than it does today. People would creatively decorate their cars for example.
Not sure about what OP was saying but, for a brief time when Uber was still new, before UberX launched in mid-summer 2012, their only service was black cars. Drivers had limousine licenses, and were merely filling time in between other gigs they had booked traditionally.
A StackOverflow question I asked 13 years ago (and which someone else answered 13 years ago!) was deleted just last month for being off-topic.
All the mods’ accounts were years younger than both the question and answer. Even weirder, the mod who initiated the deletion first tried to answer the question. He only voted to delete it after I commented that the question already had had an accepted answer for 13 years.
I don't think that's necessarily true. HN is one of the few survivors that has maintained its dignity due to the policies and work of the moderation team.
I've run huge forums and they have mostly enshittified because I didn't put the work into moderating them correctly. I would promote good users to moderators, and six months later they would all literally become Hitler and I would have to fire them, and then they become weaponized and the destruction of the site becomes circular.
>Maybe make it harder for your company to footgun your golden goose?
As someone who has started a "content contributed by users" website recently (golfcourse.wiki), I've thought long and hard about why the enshitification creep happens. I really think it happens because most of the people who start these businesses either need to take venture capital to survive, or are looking for a way to sell the business to retire rich af.
I thought long and hard about a monetization strategy, and I've got a few in my mind that don't suck. However, to achieve those goals, the project has to stay a side project and it has to run on a shoe string budget.
Call me an optimist, but in the long run, I think we will replace our enshitified websites with more open ones, the slow but steady growth fediverse shows this is happening, it's just that it won't happen fast enough for most of us to be satisfied consumers.
I just think we are looking at this through the lens of consumers, not generous creators. I occasionally help edit Wikipedia, and it looks like about 10,000-to-1, at best, people who contribute to my dumb little site. If we're all willing to waste a bit of time we can build some pretty cool sites, but there always needs to be a way for users to capture that good if the company turns evil instead of the company trying to capture the users for profit.
I see it as, well, a sort of mexican-standoff relationship that Wikipedia has built for itself (for lack of a better term). Basically, we won't enshitify the website because you'll just copy-paste it, but you won't copy-paste it because you know it's a waste of time right now. If you don't need to squeeze revenues, that's a very good relationship for long-term success.
Everyone is talking about enshittification these days, but hardly anyone is doing anything about it (including myself). Thanks for doing something about it. Do you have a blog post with your thoughts on monetization?
That's a good idea though. The main idea, since it is a golf wiki, is to provide tournament services to clubs. My understanding is that most of the cost of operating tournament services is due to licensing agreements with the the governing bodies, but if clubs are willing to provide their data themselves, that's not necessary, and I can charge orders of magnitude less than the competition.
> Every contributor-driven platform has eventually jumped the shark, and all in exactly the same way.
Reddit seems to be the exception to the rule. I and millions of others still spend a ton of time there. People have loudly griped about ads and API pricing, meanwhile I'm still finding new interesting subreddits. They seem to have monetized without destroying the UX.
I hope the forthcoming IPO doesn't ruin this comment!
lol, lmao even. Reddit is literally the worst website on the internet and has slid so far downhill as to be nothing but a place to see the latest astroturfed memes. Any interesting discussion is buried underneath regurgitation and repetitive comments and all subreddits converge to be differing shades of r/politics. The users are actually the worst, they are the most argumentative people I’ve seen on any platform and I’ve been on Internet forums since the late 90s.
The UI isn't really mentioned directly in the article, and is another major problem.
It's optimised to keep you reading. But you don't want to keep reading, you just want your original question answered.
Unfortunately, they style all the page components the same, and you are forced to read to see if it's an answer to your question, a 'related question', or something irrelevant (like the ChatGPT example given).
On top of that, it cuts off most of the answer(s) anyway 'below the fold' of the fragment it's contained in.
2. Relevant answer, but arguably a lazy one that assumes that it's a post 2020 model (instead of 2013-9). Also does not address the person's question for 'in the UK' (people answering should advise if model differs between the UK & US). Also assumes that the asker has not already looked at that spec sheet.
3. Fairly related / useful context, I suppose.
4. A 'related' question's answer, for "What is the height of a standard 53ft. semi trailer?". (Seriously?!)
5. A 'related' question's answer, for "How tall can your load be above the cab on a flatbed 2016 Ford F550?" (Seriously?!)
6. 'Related questions'
7. Answers to completely different questions.
The UI is hostile to the readers' needs.
So that, along with the poor quality responses mentioned (usually some business consultant giving vague pointless lists or pointing to some SaaS offering) means that "Site:old.reddit.com" or niche related websites is usually a more direct path to an answer to me.
Quora isn't a great place to get answers. It's better as a source of mindless, faintly informative entertainment. At its best it's a bit better than your ordinary content farm because it's not as click-baity; the users are volunteers who just want to write. "Recreational typing", as one prominent user puts it.
I've a simple but strict set of security rules for whether I'll use a
website.
- it does not want to run javascript
- that I can access it over Tor without being blocked
- that it will work in a text based browser like elinks
Despite the protestations by idealogues that no such sites exist, HN
meets all those requirements, as do dozens of useful sites I regularly
use.
If and only if I get to evaluate the quality of a site based on those
requirements, I may eventually register, with nothing more than an
email, in order to post replies.
Quora fell off that list long ago. More recently so did StackExchange.
Often I find that things break as soon as Cloudflare proxies are
involved.
You must agree that for almost every web-based product, designers and product managers can safely decide to completely ignore all people who have requirements like yours without it ever affecting their success.
Oh indeed. What a wonderful training set this will make one day when
it's sold. We'll be too sore to sit down in the morning, but right now
at least we're getting a reach-around.
Given that HN has a public API to export all the conversations nobody needs to wait for that day to make it into a training set. In fact, I would be extremely surprised if it hasn't already been trained on.
Designers and product managers may completely ignore people like me,
trample all over our needs and ignore us. Why would they care about
the one percent. All good luck power to them and their values.
But I am also not the least bit concerned with whether their products
are a success or not. Why would I care if they do not?
Yet I cannot concur that "almost every" site does. No, there are some
that do. Moreover, those sites seem to self curate as being of very
good quality. So I am happy that there are thoughtful, intelligent
people out there who "get it". When they stop, so do I, and just move
on. It's not personal and I'm not invested in them.
My experience running websites tells me that ignoring people like you is actually mandatory because they'll take up all your time and have opposite tastes of contributing users.
Surely my absence played no pivotal role in their downfall. I didn't
even know Quora had "died". How sad. RIP Quora. But a tjpnz said:
"They're also driving away contributors with more altruistic motivations"
Now, I can agree with that, because I see a very strong alignment
between the set of people who strongly uphold their own values and
have self-respect, and those who stand up for the rights of others and
have something to give.
The "walled garden" internet basically drives away people who give a
fuck.
One other way of saying “drives away people who give a fuck” could be saying those people are self-aggrandizing, self important, always yelling at the top of their lungs about their zealotry telling everyone at first opportunity about how they turn off JavaScript and don’t contribute the much to the discussion
I liken people like this to the Amish. They balk at modernity as being incompatible with their beliefs. So they withdraw from the world and live life as they see fit.
What they don’t do is go around all the time yelling at people telling them how their lifestyle is wrong or constantly telling other people how they don’t use certain technologies.
He’s right, people who always talk about they don’t use sites that require Javacript adds about as much to the conversation as people who show up in television conversations and say “I haven’t owned a television in 20 years, do people still watch TV?”
Of course. What I do not want or need is code that's been part of the
web since about 2016-2020, which is arbitrary code execution by
complete strangers. Not even in a sandboxed disposable web browser.
Now I suspect you'll want to tell me how actually Javascript is
perfectly safe... and that's a conversation we can save for another
day for the sake of both our dignity and friendship. I'm afraid it's
my job to know otherwise.
If you knew about that many exploits in the wild, surely you could (white hat) tell the company who created the browser or (black hat) make a lot of money by selling it to three letter agencies or private companies that sell it to three letter agencies.
However, in the real world, a fully patched Android or iOS operating system - especially one that is in “lock down mode” is not any more susceptible to
Zero day exploits than the number of other exploitable parts of the OS that you also don’t have any control over.
And even if you only run open source software, how long was the OpenSSL bug in operating systems before it was discovered?
Do you use your mobile’s messaging system? That’s been one of the primary targets of exploits that will target you directly.
I appreciate your sincere and sweet overtures scarface, but I'm just
not that kinda javascript girl. You're right though, everything out
there is riddled with holes. Let's not give up though.
If we stick with that analogy, then since HN requires no Javascript,
it's more like we're having a discussion on a radio show, and I am
saying "I don't really watch much TV", no?
What I hear is that Javascript is a means of speed and power to
you. And for you, forgoing that power would serve no useful
purpose. Do I understand that correctly?
What I am wondering is, do you think that for other people, they
should, maybe even must, feel the same way? Even if they are very
pleased just listening to the radio?
It's hard to me to see how a site with a vision like Quora (had) can continue existing for long after they start ignoring accessibility issues.
Sounds like I should be looking for a Stack Overflow alternative too.
(I'm suspecting that this might be related to the recent issue of better accessibility also making it easier to abuse for neural network based abusers, and it certainly looks like a hard problem to solve for the most popular websites.)
Accessibility is important. But it doesn’t relate to success of a company. Besides, modern screen readers and even accessibility affordances on modern cell phones - at least iPhones - don’t struggle or care whether the site uses JavaScript
Richard is most concerned about injustices toward people that take
away their freedoms. I am most concerned about the security of people
and how software makes them insecure in order to profit from, or abuse
them. These are proximate but different.
It is a bit worrying that both freedom and security are thought
'fanatical' by some.
> It is a bit worrying that both freedom and security are thought 'fanatical' by some.
Because those are your grandpa's and your dad's causes, respectively. The operative word for this generation is "consent."
Manipulate someone into giving Consent and you can do whatever the hell you want to them. They asked for and agreed to the abuse!
It all starts with clicking "I accept."
My skin crawls anytime I see someone bring it up; it's a red flag that someone is trying to apply BDSM protocol negotiation to an otherwise-simple interaction. Attorneys do this shit too. People only ever do it at all when they're trying to rewrite the rules in their favor.
In all honesty I think grandpa's and dad's causes were getting home
with all their arms legs still attached, but I hear you. Once the
sound of trumpets fades and the flags are folded, it's hard to get out
of your head what has been internalised so deeply. Yeah they're just
words, usually uttered by men who've sacrificed nothing.
But hey, this thing about "consent". Jolly interesting. Because not a
single person I've met born after 2000 really has the capacity
I do not mean that in a disparaging way, but I do mean it in a serious
legal sense. I don't think that in the 21st century the vast majority
of adults have the capacity to consent to digital contracts. It
started with EULAs, and has since plunged the entire legal profession
into degeneracy. It's total failure to protect the lives of common
people from technology predators is shameful.
> It is a bit worrying that both freedom and security are thought 'fanatical' by some.
I'm afraid any discourse that's similar to religion in how it's done is 'fanatical' for me. No matter if it's about $DEITY, blockchain, "AI" or freedom.
Edit: oh, forgot Oppenheimer and Barbie. Haven't seen them and never will. I can't stand cults in my entertainment either.
They're also driving away contributors with more altruistic motivations. There are a few niche subjects for which I can offer a semi-useful perspective. But I'm not going to do it if Quora build a big fucking wall around it. When they started introducing that I deleted my account. Fuck them.
Quora seems pure clickbait at this point. Unfortunately, because it didn't start that way, now anything still relevant on that site is burried under the weight of the nonsense.
One thing I noticed back when I browsed Quora a lot is that most the answers were in direct opposition to the question being asked. It’s like clockwork.
Q: why is running so good for you
A: it actually isn’t good for you. <insert justification>
Q: why do so many people run when it’s so bad for you
A: it actually is really good for you. <insert justification>
Every single question seemed to be this way. It probably reveals a lot about human nature, but it really turned me off to know I was just reading knee jerk reactions to questions rather than anything accurate.
All this to say, yes, ragebait is the lifeblood of Quora.
This article amounts to concern trolling with a barely veiled agenda for censorship. Its "users are fleeing" claim is an attempt at wish fulfillment.
The key to using Quora couldn't be easier: don't search for or read topics that you don't want to see. Human inquiry will always be delightfully messy except in the view of those who have pathological control complexes.
Even if you go to Quora for stuff you want, it's useless cause it shows answers to unrelated questions. I agree the article is bogus though, reminds me of all the "Twitter is dead ever since Elon Musk bought it" ones.
That's useless because it starts recommending you nonsense once it thinks it's learned what you want.
I just opened the front page and the 3rd item was a space called "True Love Conquers All" with relatable-Facebook-meme-style writing and an image of a woman giving birth in the backseat of a car.
Before folks jump on the business model aspect, one should keep in mind that many (all?) online communities go through a similar growth curve. Wikipedia included.
But this article goes into the details of what makes this feel different. Quora is aesthetically much worse than it ever was.
> His position on the [OpenAI] board has also raised eyebrows because Quora has been in increasingly direct competition with OpenAI’s best-known service: ChatGPT ... Shortly after OpenAI launched ChatGPT a year ago, Quora introduced Poe, a platform that allows people to ask questions from various AI chatbots, including ChatGPT.
I’m still surprised that D’Angelo didn’t get as much scrutiny in the OpenAI mess, especially as the only board member still in place. Seems obvious in hindsight that Quora continuing to fail can only be saved by leveraging as training data for the next thing. And OpenAIs ambitions threaten that.
Tangentially related, since the CEO of Quora is on OpenAI's board.
I recently had an interaction w/ OpenAI's community that left a sour taste in my mouth. Asked one question, some smarty guy tried to "XY problem" me, I clarified this is not an "XY problem" and my question is quite clear and specific and eventually one mod was involved, other mods ganged up on me and removed all my posts because "they were violating guidelines". I complained about that sort of abuse, but guess what? The same mods that run the forum run the "forum about the forum" section, lol, so they had their fun again. Left a note there, in case some actual OpenAI employee/investor cares, telling them "this is how StackOverflow died".
I'm sharing this here because if they are taking a page from Quora's playbook, well ... good luck? I'll never bother myself again with the OpenAI community and that's exactly why I stopped being involved with Quora and StackOverflow in the past. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about the forum's demise in a couple months from now.
Not only Quora, but many other sites including the various "stackexchange" sites started declining I would say from about 2018, so this is not a phenomenon attributed to llms. IMHO I attribute this to the following: a) The overuse of social media conditioning users to provide short answers, rather than long thoughtful write-ups, b) Most topics have been saturated to the limit c) lack of interest from the new generation d) Bad management and moderation.
I think stack exchange’s moderators killed that site. Common complaints were how antagonistic they were toward new users. Hard to grow or sustain a user base if you turn out all the new ones.
Yeah it's a really big problem with StackOverflow. The mods are all crazy. I can't find it now but the StackOverflow Devs proposed actually fixing (or at least improving) question closing by allowing the asker to reopen their question once. I can't remember the exact details, but it sounded like a good first step. Downvoted to hell by the existing mods of course.
They're a bit screwed because they rely so much on volunteer mods but the volunteer mods are crazy...
Doesn't sound like either of you know how SO works. Very little is done by mods, mainly it's votes by normal users. Like I could be voting to close something as a duplicate, off topic etc with my privileges. It's the community doing this, not moderators.
And the community is tired of people asking for help with their homework or doing very little effort themselves before asking. Why do these people deserve others spending their time helping them if they can't even bother to search or formulate something coherent?
> And the community is tired of people asking for help with their homework
I don't think anyone objects to closing those questions. That's not really what this is about. My questions are very clearly not asking for help with homework and trivial "how do I write a for loop" or "it doesn't work" questions. Still get downvoted/closed frequently. Most often:
* It gets closed as duplicate because there's a vaguely similar - but different - question. Or sometimes there's a completely different question with an answer that incidentally also answers my question.
* It gets closed as too vague or not clear because it's simply outside the domain of expertise of the voter. It's clear to people that know what I'm talking about.
To be clear when I say "mods" I don't exclusively mean people with official mod power. It's also people that moderate for fun - those that trawl the new questions. Let me know if you have a better name for those people.
You can tell it's them because you very often get a couple of downvotes immediately and then if you check back a month or two later it will have been upvoted by many more people that actually had the same question and arrived there via Google.
Feel free to drop links to your said questions. Often it's just vague allegations with little evidence.
Getting something closed as a duplicate shouldn't be taken as a slight. It's often good that various formulations of a question then can point to the same answer. Or if the answer to the other question answers yours, isn't it just good that you and other people will be directed there? It's a Q&A site, not a forum. Which question stands doesn't matter except for feelings.
Same with your vague or clarity. It's Q&A, not a forum with back and forth discussions. It's just not a right fit. You might think that's not how you'd like the site to be, but it is how it is. It's not overzealous moderators closing it.
Not the person you replied to but StackOverflow is ridiculously hostile to new users including formerly me. I have over 2k points on HN and much more on reddit. I've spent much more time on SE than on HN but I don't even bother contributing because the times I tried it, it went nowhere.
I've been on StackOverflow for almost 15 years now, with 100k reputation (mostly from old answers). I can tell you that I routinely run into examples of what GP described while searching for answers - it happens quite often that search engine produces link to an SO question that is about the same exact thing I'm investigating, and it's a well-written question covering the details and various explored avenues... and it's closed as "duplicate" of something that isn't actually relevant.
That’s great. You haven’t addressed my point: who do you think is asking questions about their homework? A community needs a steady influx of new users to remain vital. You’re not going to get that with _often incorrect_ references to duplicates.
Fact is, nobody wants to go to Stack overflow anymore for answers because the experience sucks. And they don’t mind using ChatGPT. Thanks for all the training data, Stack!
You are missing the elephant in the room, the incentives that drive shit content: SEO. Both quora and stack exchange – as businesses – are downstream of Google search in particular. Their main goal is to appease PageRank. All else follows from that.
The internet is a wild place, but there was a time it seemed tamed, Google fixed search and got rid of mail spam with Gmail, FB and Twitter got the feed right, ads became text-only with Adwords instead of animated gifs, ExpertsExchange, SO and various interesting personal websites and blogs had answers and were fun to read.
But just like with antibiotics, bugs were trained on it and they got stronger finding the exploit until spam, scam and greed destroyed it once again. Sigh!
Is it dead? It and reddit (and stackoverflow) are the main "human typed" results I still get
(yes I'm aware they're spending some resources on displaying an AI answer at the top).
Of course never really liked quora's forced login thing and how it seems to have removed parts of questions that answers are still referring to and how it mixes answers to different questions in front of the current one
It appears that Quora's pages are SEO optimized now, to the detriment of human users. Basically you can optimize for ad revenue and not have human user experience degrade significantly.
I think the upvote/downvote model for evaluating content is fundamentally not a good one, and this deficiency is the root problem for a lot of sites (Reddit, Quora, etc.) that were founded around the same time, circa 2005-2012. It lends itself too much to groupthink, popularity contests, and self-promotion.
X/Twitter has a million other problems, but I do like their new Community Notes of fact-checking claims. It's essentially anonymous and somewhat immune to self-promotion.
Going forward, a better path for FAQ-type sites is probably something similar to that model. The hard part is how you get users to answer questions while removing the self-promotion and gamification/scoreboard incentives.
It's possible that AI might just destroy this space entirely, but I still think you need some form of human fact-checking in order to avoid hallucinations.
Community Notes could just be an expansion of a good tweet to clear up some ambiguity.
The up/down feature tends to create echo chambers that eventually exclude half the population. Reddit is worse at this because of excessive moderation combined with doomscrollong incentives.
>I think the upvote/downvote model for evaluating content is fundamentally not a good one
This is why the bump model that 4chan uses is superior. You can sort threads by activity, but all posters display with equal weight, and you must utilize critical thinking to evaluate each and every post (unless it is from a trip user whose authority you trust in a particular domain), not some little number that pushes them to the top or sinks them to the bottom. There are (You)'s, but that can indicate consensus, disagreement, controversy, or something else, and you need to sus that our for yourself.
Consensus-based truth models are frankly shit for most types of topics. Heck, even for scientific topics, the peer review model has been shown to be completely bankrupt.
> This is why the bump model that 4chan uses is superior.
The elephant in the room is that 4chan's average quality of content is by far the worst of any major forum platform. The "bump" model is also used iirc by most bbs or older-style internet forums. In the modern age, incel forums are probably the most popular of these older-style forums (and surprisingly they probably have only slightly better average quality than 4chan).
So, correct me if I am wrong, but the bump model usually results in shitty average quality of information.
As the bump model needs heavy moderation as the upvote/downvote system is a form of self-moderation/censorship. However, the entire appeal of most sites that use the bump model is to shitpost or be edgy...
Honestly, the bump model does sound intriguing from a utopian, critical-thinking first, free speech first-principles perspective, but I'd like to see an example of a successful popular forum that implements such in reality.
The bump model allows chaos wherein you, the reader, must critically evaluate everything with no preconceived notions or pre-filtering. This is how you question, re-evaluate, and sharpen your knowledge through productive debates. There are diamonds and gems in "flat", bump-structured fora, that do not exist in other group-think, mass-consensus-based sites.
Why does the average quality of information matter? You are making a trade-off for convenience. It is indeed convenient to accept common group-think. If you are critical enough to recognize low quality posts on bump model sites, why are you concerned with low quality posts? Read on to the next post.
Insert the meme here of Cypher stating that he doesn't even see the code anymore, but the remixed version of "I don't even see the shitposts and shills anymore."
>I'd like to see an example of a successful popular forum that implements such in reality.
You know what they are, but I will elect to avoid an instaban by posting them here.
> You know what they are, but I will elect to avoid an instaban by posting them here.
You cannot list them, because I already have and I have not been instabanned.
There is not actually much chaos in these supposed "bastions of free speech". Because in practice, threads are often created by highly motivated users and can be brigaded by coordinated groups (IRC/Discord groups). Even without so, culture and groupthink emerges simply because people mimic each other.
This is the problem with all utopian first-principles liberty thinking, in practice, they fall prey to the same easily observable defects in human nature. Thus, forums like hackernews thrive because of competent moderation in their stead.
High average information quality is a top 3 important metric for browsing any content on the internet, and quality does not "emerge" effectively through this supposed "diamond in the rough" system.
It comes down to the same thing at the end of the day. You gotta pay for quality (be it quality contributors, or simply quality fact checkers to properly moderate information) and no one wants to pay. Not the users, not the webmasters. So the best way is to leave it to the users to sort out. We know that is error prone, but at least works some of the time.
Whenever a search leads me to a question/answer on Quora I'm inevitably hit with a Sign In popup that blocks the whole screen. Feels obnoxious and I just back button away.
Well, the revenue sharing probably didn't help much for sure. I've seen dozens of sites and platforms add that as a feature, and as unfortunate as it is, this almost always backfires. People see 'make money contributing to this platform' as 'free cash for spamming!' and the quality often falls off a cliff. You need really strict rules and a good moderation team to keep a platform under control in this situation, and that's rarely the case for services like Quora.
You can see the same issues cropping up on Medium with its partner program, on Twitter thanks to Twitter Blue and revenue sharing, and even to some degree on the likes of YouTube and Twitch (though they're so massive that the scammers don't really stand out/do as well). Put money on the table, and the scammers will come out of the woodwork to try and get as much of it as they can, quality content be damned.
Edit: I also suspect part of the issue with revenue sharing programs is that they don't offer enough to incentive genuine experts, but offer enough that if you're utterly desperate and local costs of living are low, you're incentivised to spam for it.
Yeah, the comments to any viral post on Xitter now is just blue checkmarks spamming memes in order to get likes and eyeballs on their junk content, and thus make money.
Any large film/music/video games twitter account post gets spammed by AI bots and I mean literal AI bots that occasionally give the game away with "you have run out of credits" or "I don't understand this prompt" messages. Also a bunch of them just retweeting their own posts that have nothing to do with the original in an attempt to farm engagement for their older stuff
This is exactly it. Even at its height, it felt like everyone was trying to build a brand and a following, and that was the primary motivation for the answers.
So, the fourth paragraph of the article is supposed to demonstrate the decline of Quora. It has a number of links.
One of those links shows a UI that's fairly obviously Reddit! [1] Another is to genius.com's lyrics to some song[2] which don't seem to have anything to do with anything the author's complaining about.
Of the links actually relevant to Quora, one is about an obvious joke[3], which the author either doesn't understand or pretends not to.
What's left is a case of spam[4], that the article links twice. I'd suppose because it's the only evidence the author has of low quality questions on Quora.
While Quora is a horrible website, I'd say the evidence shows Slate is worse. Their reporters can't even find genuine evidence of Quora's low quality. They show us Reddit instead.
[3] is, as far as anyone can tell, an insane person and not a joke. They've posted literally hundreds of questions involving atheists, christian babies, and nonsensical situations.
426 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 365 ms ] threadRemember StackOverflow...
Also, for a while I just hit a login wall, which of course makes you not click a link there the next time.
If you switch the toggle to "answers", you only get answers to the question.
And that's "How Quora died".
Basically the same reason as recipes that start with a long life story: Google prefers pages with lots of content, even if 10% of it is actually useful to anyone. So a page with 50+ "answers" is preferable to a page with two actual answers.
And that’s how Google search will be overtaken by GPT with ease. People want answers, not an ad-driven algorithm’s desire for content that is long enough to support more ads.
I was recently involved in a decision of whether or not to make a nascent community SEO-friendly, which meant significant changes to the UI and reduced UX. In the end the conclusion was "f... SEO, let's build something good instead and have users come back because of that".
Yes if the LLMs are designed to give you the best results. Right now, it’s a honey moon phase for consumers, when there’s a fierce competitive race. But just like any other tech its deployment and realization is governed by incentives. If we get an entrenched LLM monopolist I don’t think it’ll be any different from a search monopolist. Perhaps worse.
I can think of a thousand ways that they could get that convenience edge against open models. For instance, when LLMs are personalized based on your own history, chats etc people won’t give those conveniences up. And that data would not be accessible to the open models, at least not seamlessly.
But the best results are those where the user uses the back button and clicks something else. They must not click back within n seconds of course. The user has to spend a minimum amount of time on the almost useless page.
I got this feeling looking for many things. I know there are pages but get many results very very close to what I was looking for.
Dubious reversal of key words where "how to turn a car into an airplane" becomes "how to turn an airplane into a car"
Then people start making perfect SEO pages like "how to style css with html"
I was intrigued by the idea of such a page, but unfortunately your comment is apparently the only mention of that phrase on the internet.
I literally cannot understand how anyone thought intermixing related questions and answers together is in any way useful or beneficial to their users, especially when the default is set to ON.
Even Reddit has linkability to detect the URL and show you an 'other discussions' lens (for Old Reddit).
Granted, this is a slight taxonomy difference of 'other discussions' of the same exact topic, vs other discussions related to your topic. But I think it's a useful and helpful feature.
The link upthread isn't a good example, because the question is so basic it's easy for them to have a lot of related (duplicate) questions and answers. When the topic requires more nuance or is more specific, then the related questions and answers really aren't related at all, and they just add a bunch of useless noise.
hackere news isn't a question / answer site. I don't come here with the same expectations that I do when I go to something like stack overflow or quora.
Ironically, if I do a google search for something and ycombinator comes up in the results, the link is directly to the comment that is relevant- not to the top level of the article with all of the related sibling comments. If anything, from that perspective hacker news is actually a better question and answer site than quora.
So you look for a question, and all the answers are not even relevant, and often completely off topic or wrong.
I can understand the rabbit hole thing. Never thought about that. That they think of themselves as TikTok and not stack overflow or Reddit.
For example, I found this random question just now:
https://www.quora.com/How-does-blockchain-technology-work-11
About half the answers there are actually to that question. The rest are to questions that are about the same thing but with different wording:
* 'How does block chain technology work?' * 'How blockchain technology works?' * etc
or to related but not quite identical ones:
* 'What is blockchain technology and how does it work?' * 'What is blockchain technology, could you explain it in an easy way?' * 'What is a blockchain?'
So you'll see a lot of answers... which may or may not actually be for the question you were interested in. Or which may explain it in a weird way, since the actual question they answered was worded very differently.
At least with StackOverflow you know that the answers are all related to the same question.
I don't know, most StackOverflow answers I run into are "closed as duplicate of <not my question>" or "closed as duplicate of <how would I have solved my problem 8 years ago with only the tools available then>"
Product of too much VC, probably.
Seems bad any way you look at it.
something something "all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way"
In some places, the "vision" is sufficiently vague that all sorts of dumb decisions can be justified by it.
Or the CEO is so stupid that he only listens to his direct reports, who all tell him everything is under control. And when they tell him not to "micromanage" he listens and backs off.
You can't make any universal statements about this.
It has to be the worse site on the internet.
Quora can and will pop up for nearly every search query and I've never been satisfied with the answers I peek at, ever.
It seems like such a missed opportunity. Even when I compare to my stack exchange usage, I’m not a registered user, I’m only ever consuming information, but I click around and they benefit through ads.
Probably also email harvesting and any associated segmentation they get with your reading history, since it's required to sign up to read anything.
I agree with StackExchange, sometimes the random things on the sidebar grab my attention, whether it's some random travel question, workplace, about writing/sci-fi, etc.
Pinterest is another spammy site. Same with Quora. Like what is the model here? Spam SEO, drive ad revenue? In my experience Yahoo Answers was 10x more interesting than anything Quora offers, but maybe I and others like me are the exception and companies like Quora are actually getting eyeballs with their UX and business model and that's why Yahoo Answers isn't a thing anymore.?
Considering I rarely understand what I'm even looking at with the mish mosh of answers, and I'm not willing to create an account, I've outright blocked Quora in my browser.
As an aside, I think the extreme enshittification of Quora basically highlights every single problem with VC-driven, growth-at-all costs, "metrics and data driven" tech platforms (as an aside, the reason I put square quotes there is not that I think metrics and data are bad, but I think most companies are not honest that they're optimizing for metrics and data that are easy to gather, while the fuzzier but actually more critical concepts of user trust and sentiment get ignored over time). I mean honestly, is there any single employee at Quora that thinks that what the site became is anything but a total shit show?
This is the reality. Not just in Quora but all tech companies. A/B testing is used to determine how to squeeze more and more engagement, in small parts of the app. And over time the app becomes an ad factory with unrelated posts because apparently people are more engaged when they are lost and unable to find any information.
Either it’s a series of unchallenged false positives, or there’s a lot about web interface that neither I nor they understand, but I would challenge the idea that is the result of a well-informed A/B testing culture. It’s the output of a thousand monkeys running a thousand tests a day for three years, and releasing anything that hits the green line.
If you visit Amazon often enough you kinda get used to it. But a new vistor imho would be shellshocked.
> Jeff Bezos is an infamous micro-manager. He micro-manages every single pixel of Amazon's retail site. He hired Larry Tesler, Apple's Chief Scientist and probably the very most famous and respected human-computer interaction expert in the entire world, and then ignored every goddamn thing Larry said for three years until Larry finally -- wisely -- left the company. Larry would do these big usability studies and demonstrate beyond any shred of doubt that nobody can understand that frigging website, but Bezos just couldn't let go of those pixels, all those millions of semantics-packed pixels on the landing page. They were like millions of his own precious children. So they're all still there, and Larry is not.
* Shortsighted metrics that don't contribute to the holistic quality of the product. Ad-supported products are especially prone to this.
* Treating a mature product just like a new one, and adding too many features instead of maintaining it and doing less.
Absolutely insane.
I’d bet they just tested it and found that’s how they make money.
Anymore that’s not the case. Answer quality has gone down drastically and the percent of Google searches that end up there has gone up.
Google really ought to de-index them. And don’t even get me started on Pinterest.
You know those pages you find on google that are just SO/Wikipedia articles copied? That’s what Quora looks like lol
I just logged in out of curiosity, and I have an avalanche of “notifications” that are just pathetic — “Dark Psychology Facts posted in a space you might like: ‘Can a human win in a battle with a hyena?’”
I believe Q&A sites will inevitably degrade as the low-hanging fruit is picked early. ("How do I lose weight?" "Explain relativity" "Is God real?") It can start with great answers, but it quickly becomes repetitious. Y!A probably also had a similar phase, but by the time most people heard about it, it was already famously dumb.
Quora followed a similar path. It actually lasted longer than one might expect, in part because they threw a lot of money at it. But it is now much worse because it's better known and a more visible target to trolls and spammers. Plus it's reputation for paying people, which attracts vast amounts of minimum effort, much of it automated. (And not paying any more, but that doesn't stop people.)
Whose sole job it is to (1) figure out what contributors are thinking and want & (2) advocate for them inside the company.
Every contributor-driven platform has eventually jumped the shark, and all in exactly the same way.
Management begins to take contributions for granted. Stops caring about attracting contributors. Then focuses on revenue. Then makes changes to the platform that kill contributions, in pursuit of revenue.
And they miss so many obvious ways to placate and delight their contributors. "It'd be nice to have a mod tool that does X" shouldn't be a 3-year back burner ask.
Maybe make it harder for your company to footgun your golden goose?
Quora had been going downhill for quite some time before that, as they realized they had no idea how to monetize the content and were grasping at straws. But that was the point where they appear to have pivoted entirely towards AI and continued the human generated content side on minimum life support.
This sort of thing should be a nonprofit. When it was good, it was literally making the world a better place.
Possibly the Library of Congress would be a good steward for such a platform. Something to make it resistant to enshittification.
I will get downvoted for this, but it's my perception.
--
[0]: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/wikipedia-millions-bank-beg/
I will always downvote a comment when someone writes something like this. It is irrelevant to the conversation and screams insecurity.
Though, hoarding seems like a mischaracterization. Per the article linked, the cash burn rate is on the order of $100M/yr, having $150M in the bank is 18 months worth of funding.
The biggest gripe I read in the article is the "high" expenditure rate and how necessary it is. It seems like reasonable people may disagree on whether that spend rate is excessive.
If the expenditure rate were lower, I'd agree it would be hoarding.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has...
If they kept expenditures low and hoarded, I would actually be fine with that and happy to contribute. I see nothing wrong with forming a large endowment for a project like Wikipedia.
I believe I was likely incorrect and you are correct here @HillRat. The nuance where I was incorrect was if the nonprofit fails to properly pay taxes on unrelated activities - in which case the government can decide that entity is a for-profit entity. This link was helpful for me for that clarification: https://www.findlaw.com/smallbusiness/incorporation-and-lega...
I recall this being an issue for an HOA which wound up collecting more than it needed and there was concern that (A) it would be taxed & (B) nonprofit status would be lost. Paying taxes correctly is very important, but does not speak to a non-profits ability to hoard cash. My earlier comment is incorrect, I apologize for the bad information.
The what? I cannot visit Wikipedia without seeing a donate bar, even when I close it every time. "Year-round" maybe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment
Their sister Wikicities / Wikia / Fandom (also relying on MediaWiki), and now owned by Texas Pacific Group, is however, another example of a platform getting enshittified.
If anything, Musk is less profit-oriented. Someone looking to profit off the platform wouldn't be actively driving off advertisers. But I suppose that because we must all believe that Elon Bad, he must also be the evilest capitalistest person in the whole world, and everything before him was sunshine and roses.
And now it’s know to censor content to be friendly to autocratic governments.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/88xqnv/elon-musk-censors-twi...
By complying with government regulations when displaying content in their respective regions to avoid getting the entire network banned there, right. While this hit piece from a notoriously biased outlet would like to equate this with ye olde Twitter's regular practice of of suppressing or deleting content worldwide at the whim of the US government, it's obviously more transparent and fair to comply with censorship locally and provide a reason for the missing content. Reeks of "it's okay when we do it".
Being unable to turn a profit is not the same as not prioritising profit.
If he’s so unconcerned with making a profit, then why weasel out from paying rent, the fired employees, and all the rest? Why be so adamant about a payed subscription? Why complain of advertisers leaving?
More importantly, why does a self-proclaimed “free speech absolutist” kowtow to an autocratic government if he’s not even concerned with profit? And why does he keep banning his own critics?
> ye olde Twitter's regular practice of of suppressing or deleting content worldwide at the whim of the US government
Disputed by his own lawyers.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/06/tech/twitter-files-lawyer...
> this hit piece from a notoriously biased outlet
Here are eight more sources and a study. Surely they won’t all be “notoriously biased outlets” writing hit pieces, or is the definition for that “writes something negative about Musk”?
https://nypost.com/2023/04/01/twitter-censorship-increases-u...
https://www.thestreet.com/technology/twitter-promised-to-fig...
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-05-24/under-el...
https://restofworld.org/2023/elon-musk-twitter-government-or...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/04/elon-musk-...
https://slate.com/technology/2023/05/elon-musk-turkey-twitte...
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/elon-musk-twitte...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/04/27/tw...
https://censortrack.org/study-twitter-censorship-shockingly-...
In fact till mid-1993, with a few unimportant exceptions (Clari-Net, early "retail" ISPs like Netcom) the entire Internet, which was already the largest network of computers by a comfortable margin, was non-profit.
The US has done terrible things in the too-recent future in the explicit name of making the world a better place.
At least, that rationale triggers my gag reflex.
There is a lot of money in lobbying for certain things.
Companies generally don't want political outcomes per se via lobbying outside of their own niche interests.
Much more impactful are dedicated lobby groups.
For exmaple, there's a particular country that I'm not allowed to mention here under duress of being banned that has a lot of moneyed lobbying.
Fine, Facebook , TikTok , Reddit and myriad others have found how to moderate and monetize user generated content if you need better examples
Do you think Wikipedia has jumped the shark? Obviously not perfect, but it's certainly a lot better than Quora in terms of accuracy. It's been around for a very long time and it doesn't seem to me like quality has decreased.
Edit: to be clear and re-iterate, I never said Wikipedia was perfect, just that it has a certain baseline, generally above where Quora is, and hasn't seemed to decline over the years.
Granted, it might be the best possible way for an open-source encyclopedia to work. It is after all an incredible success. It's just pretty bad in some parts.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38974614
But to expand a bit, for example I'm annoyed at many of the entries calling their subject "conspiracy theory/ theorist". Not that conspiracy theories and their believers don't exist, but at this point it has become a highly pejorative and judgemental term to frame ideas and narratives that need to be stigmatized rather than explained. Passing judgements should not, in my view, be the primary focus of an encyclopedia entry.
What ever I answer in this case the easiest reaction will be; for you will be to judge me and lump me together with what you cal activists, and for those activists it will me easiest to put me in the same conspiracy theorist group as you. This is not a problem with Wikipedia, this is a human problem.
While I also think that article is abysmal, it does give context what to expect from people posting stuff by her. The biggest problem with your complaint is that you are not linking to an alternative, just do a fast draft on Wikipedia remove everything that you feel is not relevant and link that. Sure it will be reverted but that is probably because you first draft will not be a good article, those are evidently very hard to write when people think so differently about something.
Wikipedia could be an excellent attack vector for sorting out human's heads at scale.
Also they pretty clearly note that her doctorate in interdisciplinary studies focused on mammals as its subject, what would you have them do? Claim that her doctorate was in something it wasn't, instead of interdisciplinary studies, just to make her look better, because a doctorate in interdisciplinary studies with a focus on some particular thing is "essentially equivalent" in your mind to an actual doctorate in that thing? Or claim she focused on evolutionary biology, when not even her own blog bio claims it was about "evolutionary biology" (she implies it was about zoology or another similar field)? Why do you say evolutionary biology should be listed then? Is it just to make her sound better?
Likewise, why wouldn't the criticism section be mostly filled with what she's been criticized about the most? If most of her other work was unremarkable or solid and nobody criticized it, but she's gotten a lot of criticism for her climate change views, why wouldn't that dominate the criticism section?
And if she hasn't had much notable work outside of her business, books, dotgs, and polar bears, I'm not sure why you would expect her career or education sections to have a ton of other stuff? That's the stuff even herself bio on her blog focuses on. Like you look at the headings of her non-criticism sections and decry them as if they are obviously lacking or derogatory or something but if that's all her notable work is about, why wouldn't they be like that?
Like, your entire criticism seems at least to lack citations of why the material you are upset about shouldn't be there, and without them it really appears like you're just upset that a factual article about someone you are to some degree sympathetic with makes them look worse than you'd like.
Honestly this is my problem with a lot of people's complaints of bias. A lot of it boils down to "the facts make my side of the issue look bad, can you emphasize/deemphasize some facts for me so both sides seem equal?"
People seem to think that truly unbiased reporting makes all sides of a controversy seem equally correct and equally to have a point, but that is simply not true. Unbiased reporting is reporting the facts of the case, and if that happens to show that one side of a controversy is more correct than the others, then so be it. The job is to report the facts as best you can, and misrepresenting the facts and skewing their connotation or interpretation to make it look like a side of a controversy that doesn't have much going for it is equal to a side that has more of the facts on their side just in order to make everyone look equal would actually be biased, not the other way around. I'm not claiming the mainstream news media reports the facts of the case well, they don't, but they also fall afoul of this problem: on whatever issue the mainstream news media has decided they are going to be "impartial" on, every time they publish an article that is even slightly supportive of one side of the controversy, they feel it necessary to post an article from the other side of the controversy, even if that second article is a completely factually false, incoherent screed that has no facts or logic on its side, and treat it on supposedly equal footing in the name of impartiality. Or anytime they report on the issue they feel the need to use unnecessarily strained language to circumlocate around calling things what they actually are in order to prevent people from coming to the obvious conclusion the fact...
She also has a consulting company that specialises in identifying bone fragments of North American fish, birds and mammals- the clients are mostly universities, museums and park/ forest services. I don't see references on the company's page about searching in "the scat of wild animals for ... items", which seems at one time very specific and vague. Curious choice. (*)
More, just on the lede: "she is a blogger"- no, she also runs a blog, as many scientists do. "her blog posts on polar bear biology which are unsupported ..."- imprecise, we don't yet know what those posts are about- and yet we already know that they're "unsupported by the consensus". Ah, by the way- this is just wrong: consensus is not a support for anything- you might go with or against the consensus, certainly not look for its support.
The "Early life and education" section fails to mention the title of her doctorate thesis, but instead dedicates half of its seven lines to a completely out-of-context, minute controversy about what one "Lars Olof Bjorn" thinks of one line of one article by her in 2009.
Career section "Business" ends (after two lines) with the following sentence (again, at the same time very precise and vague): "Since the start of her career, she has worked primarily through paid contracts for specific work on a variety of topics". What is it even supposed to mean? You know, that would also apply to me. "Paid contracts" indeed, for "specific work" on "a variety of topics".
In the "Books" section, only one book is cited (Google gives me 5 or 6) and again, half of the space is dedicated to the criticism from a single person.
The "Polar bears" section is basically entirely dedicated to a controversy- and still we don't know anything about what Susan Crockford claims about polar bears, why she does it, what are her points, how does she go against the "consensus". Nothing.
I'll stop here. A cursory read is enough to understand that there has been no attempt whatsoever to approach this subject with a minimum of detachment- the entry almost reads like a parody, or a satirical piece. If you don't see it, I'm sorry, think it's a problem.
* If I can pinpoint what feels wrong with these statements, is the constant oscillation between extremely vague ("a small business", "other items", "known for posts about polar bear biology") and curiously precise ("contract scientist", "in the scat of wildlife", "gained her interest in elementary school") etc.
;-)
What we label as “centrist” isn’t guaranteed to be the “actual” center of reality’s spectrum of ideology.
Right wing people are too busy earning them sweet, sweet dollars.
This is typically done in under the guise of notability ("GPL/copyleft is notable, other alternatives aren't").
One major problem is that you need to submit references to back up any claim. PR companies can easily buy an article in a fringe news site and them modify Wikipedia with a reference to that article. It is almost impossible to roll back.
I once tried to update a company page to state they were going through redundancies. I was personally affected by this, and had internal emails to back this up. However, lacking a public reference it was rolled back.
I remember when nascent Wikipedia had user-contributed content, and the niche articles were way more interesting and detailed. Though at the cost of inaccuracy.
Now, the submarine PR being backfed into it makes cited content pretty beige.
Something like (1) a non-reader-visible, upstream Wikifacts + (2) a community-driven, laxer Wikiprototype + (3) an authoritative, cited Wikipedia.
The point is that Wikipedia isn't original research. You updating the page on the basis of personal knowledge isn't the way it is supposed to work.
Was reverted as that was not reference to some book or sciene article.
Never contributed after that. May be one or 2 graph theory improvements.
Wiki denies realitity.
And for math i use only 10% of my math requests.
Imagine your quite large company has a small guitar shop on the other side of the globe that has the same name.
You just want a disambiguation so nobody thinks your company is this little guitar shop. You can't just edit it yourself, you need to find a Wikipedia expert and bribe them to somehow help with your plight. It is easy to imagine that a vast PR company will wave a magic wand, but it is not always like that.
https://www.wikiexpertsinc.com/get-free-wikipedia-consultanc...
https://www.legalmorning.com/cleaning-up-a-company-wikipedia...
An amusing discussion where the OP says Wikipedia is here to stay, and every answer is downvoted, most of them flagged. All of them voicing concerns of some validity.
This is super representative of that happens on Wikipedia.
Wikipedia is notorious for excluding ordinary contributors from the process. Anybody can revert your change and that takes precedence over what you did, and there is no obvious appeal process for you, but de facto there is for the well-connected long-time editors. They can always gather some cavalry and run you over.
So they should probably do what Stack Overflow tried to do, and explicitly say that new users / infrequent contributors have to receive more care, that needs to be provided by veterans / frequent contributors, as well as provide mechanisms to do so.
Otherwise it is not a wikipedia that everyone can edit, rather a wikipedia written by a cabal who is also contains a large number of biased people, often getting direct or indirect funding from maintaining that bias.
I think these things turn out to be a bit important.
However, having been a long time contributor to [Current Events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events) (fought over because of news relevancy), there have been waves of sock puppeting and attempts to constantly revoke all edits from certain users, that often make you not want to contribute.
There is also this editorial talking about spending that makes some arguments about current issues with Wikipedia. Namely, that there's a lot of money going in, and not a lot of requested feature development. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...
> Every for-profit contributor-driven platform has eventually jumped the shark
So now you have this bizarro world where English language pages on Portuguese politicians have corruption scandals but Portuguese language do not.
Reddit is a cluster that manages to ONLY keep going because of how agressive mods can be about their positions, but as we have seen time in, time out, MODs positions get molested by ADMINs and ADMINs posing as MODs. MODs on the take.
The point being that when Reddit IPOs - there are undoubtedly mods who have/are/will-be compensated/profit when IPO hits.
Streaming services (you mean 5he likes of Netflix ?) are arguably not platforms, because they are much closer to distributors or even publishers (rather than just editors, sometimes), with all the extra legal issues and contract-signing that come with that.
*"content" is really corporate-speak, I would hate my works to be called that :
https://craphound.com/content/Cory_Doctorow_-_Content.html#1
The one exception would be Craigslist
Early users are a different band of the population, on every successful platform from StackOverflow to Uber they create a particular culture which is impossible to maintain as the general public arrives in large numbers.
All the mods’ accounts were years younger than both the question and answer. Even weirder, the mod who initiated the deletion first tried to answer the question. He only voted to delete it after I commented that the question already had had an accepted answer for 13 years.
Fortunately it's so terrible I was easily dissuaded from ever answering anything.
I've run huge forums and they have mostly enshittified because I didn't put the work into moderating them correctly. I would promote good users to moderators, and six months later they would all literally become Hitler and I would have to fire them, and then they become weaponized and the destruction of the site becomes circular.
As someone who has started a "content contributed by users" website recently (golfcourse.wiki), I've thought long and hard about why the enshitification creep happens. I really think it happens because most of the people who start these businesses either need to take venture capital to survive, or are looking for a way to sell the business to retire rich af.
I thought long and hard about a monetization strategy, and I've got a few in my mind that don't suck. However, to achieve those goals, the project has to stay a side project and it has to run on a shoe string budget.
Call me an optimist, but in the long run, I think we will replace our enshitified websites with more open ones, the slow but steady growth fediverse shows this is happening, it's just that it won't happen fast enough for most of us to be satisfied consumers.
I just think we are looking at this through the lens of consumers, not generous creators. I occasionally help edit Wikipedia, and it looks like about 10,000-to-1, at best, people who contribute to my dumb little site. If we're all willing to waste a bit of time we can build some pretty cool sites, but there always needs to be a way for users to capture that good if the company turns evil instead of the company trying to capture the users for profit.
I see it as, well, a sort of mexican-standoff relationship that Wikipedia has built for itself (for lack of a better term). Basically, we won't enshitify the website because you'll just copy-paste it, but you won't copy-paste it because you know it's a waste of time right now. If you don't need to squeeze revenues, that's a very good relationship for long-term success.
That's a good idea though. The main idea, since it is a golf wiki, is to provide tournament services to clubs. My understanding is that most of the cost of operating tournament services is due to licensing agreements with the the governing bodies, but if clubs are willing to provide their data themselves, that's not necessary, and I can charge orders of magnitude less than the competition.
Reddit seems to be the exception to the rule. I and millions of others still spend a ton of time there. People have loudly griped about ads and API pricing, meanwhile I'm still finding new interesting subreddits. They seem to have monetized without destroying the UX.
I hope the forthcoming IPO doesn't ruin this comment!
It's optimised to keep you reading. But you don't want to keep reading, you just want your original question answered.
Unfortunately, they style all the page components the same, and you are forced to read to see if it's an answer to your question, a 'related question', or something irrelevant (like the ChatGPT example given).
On top of that, it cuts off most of the answer(s) anyway 'below the fold' of the fragment it's contained in.
Example where I googled 'quora van dimensions': https://www.quora.com/Is-there-much-of-a-height-difference-b...
1. AI component
2. Relevant answer, but arguably a lazy one that assumes that it's a post 2020 model (instead of 2013-9). Also does not address the person's question for 'in the UK' (people answering should advise if model differs between the UK & US). Also assumes that the asker has not already looked at that spec sheet.
3. Fairly related / useful context, I suppose.
4. A 'related' question's answer, for "What is the height of a standard 53ft. semi trailer?". (Seriously?!)
5. A 'related' question's answer, for "How tall can your load be above the cab on a flatbed 2016 Ford F550?" (Seriously?!)
6. 'Related questions'
7. Answers to completely different questions.
The UI is hostile to the readers' needs.
So that, along with the poor quality responses mentioned (usually some business consultant giving vague pointless lists or pointing to some SaaS offering) means that "Site:old.reddit.com" or niche related websites is usually a more direct path to an answer to me.
This is one of the kinds of product that people will skip if they can't evaluate it frictionless.
I've a simple but strict set of security rules for whether I'll use a website.
- it does not want to run javascript
- that I can access it over Tor without being blocked
- that it will work in a text based browser like elinks
Despite the protestations by idealogues that no such sites exist, HN meets all those requirements, as do dozens of useful sites I regularly use.
If and only if I get to evaluate the quality of a site based on those requirements, I may eventually register, with nothing more than an email, in order to post replies.
Quora fell off that list long ago. More recently so did StackExchange.
Often I find that things break as soon as Cloudflare proxies are involved.
Designers and product managers may completely ignore people like me, trample all over our needs and ignore us. Why would they care about the one percent. All good luck power to them and their values.
But I am also not the least bit concerned with whether their products are a success or not. Why would I care if they do not?
Yet I cannot concur that "almost every" site does. No, there are some that do. Moreover, those sites seem to self curate as being of very good quality. So I am happy that there are thoughtful, intelligent people out there who "get it". When they stop, so do I, and just move on. It's not personal and I'm not invested in them.
eeeeeeeewww! That's not a great look is it!?
^^^ delete button maybe?
> have opposite tastes of contributing users.
The people you exclude are unlike the contributing users.... yep no tautology there then :)
"They're also driving away contributors with more altruistic motivations"
Now, I can agree with that, because I see a very strong alignment between the set of people who strongly uphold their own values and have self-respect, and those who stand up for the rights of others and have something to give.
The "walled garden" internet basically drives away people who give a fuck.
I liken people like this to the Amish. They balk at modernity as being incompatible with their beliefs. So they withdraw from the world and live life as they see fit.
What they don’t do is go around all the time yelling at people telling them how their lifestyle is wrong or constantly telling other people how they don’t use certain technologies.
I'm intellectually curious, what you're so deeply invested in that was just threatened?
Does Javascript really mean something important to you?
It serves no useful purpose
No useful purpose to who?
Now I suspect you'll want to tell me how actually Javascript is perfectly safe... and that's a conversation we can save for another day for the sake of both our dignity and friendship. I'm afraid it's my job to know otherwise.
If you knew about that many exploits in the wild, surely you could (white hat) tell the company who created the browser or (black hat) make a lot of money by selling it to three letter agencies or private companies that sell it to three letter agencies.
However, in the real world, a fully patched Android or iOS operating system - especially one that is in “lock down mode” is not any more susceptible to Zero day exploits than the number of other exploitable parts of the OS that you also don’t have any control over.
And even if you only run open source software, how long was the OpenSSL bug in operating systems before it was discovered?
Do you use your mobile’s messaging system? That’s been one of the primary targets of exploits that will target you directly.
What I hear is that Javascript is a means of speed and power to you. And for you, forgoing that power would serve no useful purpose. Do I understand that correctly?
What I am wondering is, do you think that for other people, they should, maybe even must, feel the same way? Even if they are very pleased just listening to the radio?
It's hard to me to see how a site with a vision like Quora (had) can continue existing for long after they start ignoring accessibility issues.
Sounds like I should be looking for a Stack Overflow alternative too.
(I'm suspecting that this might be related to the recent issue of better accessibility also making it easier to abuse for neural network based abusers, and it certainly looks like a hard problem to solve for the most popular websites.)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39211037
I am wondering what you mean by "success" of a company here? Is that purely financial success? Or rate of growth or something like that?
But they are not the only things that define the success of a person, or a company. WOuld you agree?
SO went to hell when they started demanding ready to copy paste answers instead of 'teach the man how to fish' answers.
It is a bit worrying that both freedom and security are thought 'fanatical' by some.
Because those are your grandpa's and your dad's causes, respectively. The operative word for this generation is "consent."
Manipulate someone into giving Consent and you can do whatever the hell you want to them. They asked for and agreed to the abuse!
It all starts with clicking "I accept."
My skin crawls anytime I see someone bring it up; it's a red flag that someone is trying to apply BDSM protocol negotiation to an otherwise-simple interaction. Attorneys do this shit too. People only ever do it at all when they're trying to rewrite the rules in their favor.
You don't have to click 'I accept'. If the dialog is too complex to figure out what you're accepting, click reject or close the page.
If there is no obvious reject (even if there is a hidden one) just close the page and never come back.
But hey, this thing about "consent". Jolly interesting. Because not a single person I've met born after 2000 really has the capacity
I do not mean that in a disparaging way, but I do mean it in a serious legal sense. I don't think that in the 21st century the vast majority of adults have the capacity to consent to digital contracts. It started with EULAs, and has since plunged the entire legal profession into degeneracy. It's total failure to protect the lives of common people from technology predators is shameful.
I'm afraid any discourse that's similar to religion in how it's done is 'fanatical' for me. No matter if it's about $DEITY, blockchain, "AI" or freedom.
Edit: oh, forgot Oppenheimer and Barbie. Haven't seen them and never will. I can't stand cults in my entertainment either.
Would need more than just Poe to justify than billion dollar valuation.
Q: why is running so good for you
A: it actually isn’t good for you. <insert justification>
Q: why do so many people run when it’s so bad for you
A: it actually is really good for you. <insert justification>
Every single question seemed to be this way. It probably reveals a lot about human nature, but it really turned me off to know I was just reading knee jerk reactions to questions rather than anything accurate.
All this to say, yes, ragebait is the lifeblood of Quora.
The key to using Quora couldn't be easier: don't search for or read topics that you don't want to see. Human inquiry will always be delightfully messy except in the view of those who have pathological control complexes.
I just opened the front page and the 3rd item was a space called "True Love Conquers All" with relatable-Facebook-meme-style writing and an image of a woman giving birth in the backseat of a car.
Why did the Beatles use a Stratocaster for electric guitars?
What is the best essay writing service?
What are the major challenges of writing an essay?
What is a poem for you?
Should I sell my Squier CV 50s Strat for an Ibanez S521?
Do you count time spent thinking about what you are going to write as time spent writing?
Is it important for a writer to write what he feels?
What is the process of writing a book without having anything written down beforehand?
Do guitar players prefer single coil pickups or humbuckers?
Do guitar players prefer single coil pickups or humbuckers?
Which rock musicians do you think could've been better than they actually were?
New Quora insult: "Quora exists to make NextDoor users look smart"
But this article goes into the details of what makes this feel different. Quora is aesthetically much worse than it ever was.
> His position on the [OpenAI] board has also raised eyebrows because Quora has been in increasingly direct competition with OpenAI’s best-known service: ChatGPT ... Shortly after OpenAI launched ChatGPT a year ago, Quora introduced Poe, a platform that allows people to ask questions from various AI chatbots, including ChatGPT.
I recently had an interaction w/ OpenAI's community that left a sour taste in my mouth. Asked one question, some smarty guy tried to "XY problem" me, I clarified this is not an "XY problem" and my question is quite clear and specific and eventually one mod was involved, other mods ganged up on me and removed all my posts because "they were violating guidelines". I complained about that sort of abuse, but guess what? The same mods that run the forum run the "forum about the forum" section, lol, so they had their fun again. Left a note there, in case some actual OpenAI employee/investor cares, telling them "this is how StackOverflow died".
I'm sharing this here because if they are taking a page from Quora's playbook, well ... good luck? I'll never bother myself again with the OpenAI community and that's exactly why I stopped being involved with Quora and StackOverflow in the past. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about the forum's demise in a couple months from now.
They're a bit screwed because they rely so much on volunteer mods but the volunteer mods are crazy...
And the community is tired of people asking for help with their homework or doing very little effort themselves before asking. Why do these people deserve others spending their time helping them if they can't even bother to search or formulate something coherent?
I don't think anyone objects to closing those questions. That's not really what this is about. My questions are very clearly not asking for help with homework and trivial "how do I write a for loop" or "it doesn't work" questions. Still get downvoted/closed frequently. Most often:
* It gets closed as duplicate because there's a vaguely similar - but different - question. Or sometimes there's a completely different question with an answer that incidentally also answers my question.
* It gets closed as too vague or not clear because it's simply outside the domain of expertise of the voter. It's clear to people that know what I'm talking about.
To be clear when I say "mods" I don't exclusively mean people with official mod power. It's also people that moderate for fun - those that trawl the new questions. Let me know if you have a better name for those people.
You can tell it's them because you very often get a couple of downvotes immediately and then if you check back a month or two later it will have been upvoted by many more people that actually had the same question and arrived there via Google.
Getting something closed as a duplicate shouldn't be taken as a slight. It's often good that various formulations of a question then can point to the same answer. Or if the answer to the other question answers yours, isn't it just good that you and other people will be directed there? It's a Q&A site, not a forum. Which question stands doesn't matter except for feelings.
Same with your vague or clarity. It's Q&A, not a forum with back and forth discussions. It's just not a right fit. You might think that's not how you'd like the site to be, but it is how it is. It's not overzealous moderators closing it.
Fact is, nobody wants to go to Stack overflow anymore for answers because the experience sucks. And they don’t mind using ChatGPT. Thanks for all the training data, Stack!
But just like with antibiotics, bugs were trained on it and they got stronger finding the exploit until spam, scam and greed destroyed it once again. Sigh!
(yes I'm aware they're spending some resources on displaying an AI answer at the top).
Of course never really liked quora's forced login thing and how it seems to have removed parts of questions that answers are still referring to and how it mixes answers to different questions in front of the current one
X/Twitter has a million other problems, but I do like their new Community Notes of fact-checking claims. It's essentially anonymous and somewhat immune to self-promotion.
Going forward, a better path for FAQ-type sites is probably something similar to that model. The hard part is how you get users to answer questions while removing the self-promotion and gamification/scoreboard incentives.
It's possible that AI might just destroy this space entirely, but I still think you need some form of human fact-checking in order to avoid hallucinations.
The up/down feature tends to create echo chambers that eventually exclude half the population. Reddit is worse at this because of excessive moderation combined with doomscrollong incentives.
This is why the bump model that 4chan uses is superior. You can sort threads by activity, but all posters display with equal weight, and you must utilize critical thinking to evaluate each and every post (unless it is from a trip user whose authority you trust in a particular domain), not some little number that pushes them to the top or sinks them to the bottom. There are (You)'s, but that can indicate consensus, disagreement, controversy, or something else, and you need to sus that our for yourself.
Consensus-based truth models are frankly shit for most types of topics. Heck, even for scientific topics, the peer review model has been shown to be completely bankrupt.
The elephant in the room is that 4chan's average quality of content is by far the worst of any major forum platform. The "bump" model is also used iirc by most bbs or older-style internet forums. In the modern age, incel forums are probably the most popular of these older-style forums (and surprisingly they probably have only slightly better average quality than 4chan).
So, correct me if I am wrong, but the bump model usually results in shitty average quality of information.
As the bump model needs heavy moderation as the upvote/downvote system is a form of self-moderation/censorship. However, the entire appeal of most sites that use the bump model is to shitpost or be edgy...
Honestly, the bump model does sound intriguing from a utopian, critical-thinking first, free speech first-principles perspective, but I'd like to see an example of a successful popular forum that implements such in reality.
The bump model allows chaos wherein you, the reader, must critically evaluate everything with no preconceived notions or pre-filtering. This is how you question, re-evaluate, and sharpen your knowledge through productive debates. There are diamonds and gems in "flat", bump-structured fora, that do not exist in other group-think, mass-consensus-based sites.
Why does the average quality of information matter? You are making a trade-off for convenience. It is indeed convenient to accept common group-think. If you are critical enough to recognize low quality posts on bump model sites, why are you concerned with low quality posts? Read on to the next post.
Insert the meme here of Cypher stating that he doesn't even see the code anymore, but the remixed version of "I don't even see the shitposts and shills anymore."
>I'd like to see an example of a successful popular forum that implements such in reality.
You know what they are, but I will elect to avoid an instaban by posting them here.
You cannot list them, because I already have and I have not been instabanned.
There is not actually much chaos in these supposed "bastions of free speech". Because in practice, threads are often created by highly motivated users and can be brigaded by coordinated groups (IRC/Discord groups). Even without so, culture and groupthink emerges simply because people mimic each other.
This is the problem with all utopian first-principles liberty thinking, in practice, they fall prey to the same easily observable defects in human nature. Thus, forums like hackernews thrive because of competent moderation in their stead.
High average information quality is a top 3 important metric for browsing any content on the internet, and quality does not "emerge" effectively through this supposed "diamond in the rough" system.
Not here, at least.
>Thus, forums like hackernews thrive because of competent moderation in their stead.
hahaha, well, enjoy, then!
You can see the same issues cropping up on Medium with its partner program, on Twitter thanks to Twitter Blue and revenue sharing, and even to some degree on the likes of YouTube and Twitch (though they're so massive that the scammers don't really stand out/do as well). Put money on the table, and the scammers will come out of the woodwork to try and get as much of it as they can, quality content be damned.
Edit: I also suspect part of the issue with revenue sharing programs is that they don't offer enough to incentive genuine experts, but offer enough that if you're utterly desperate and local costs of living are low, you're incentivised to spam for it.
One of those links shows a UI that's fairly obviously Reddit! [1] Another is to genius.com's lyrics to some song[2] which don't seem to have anything to do with anything the author's complaining about.
Of the links actually relevant to Quora, one is about an obvious joke[3], which the author either doesn't understand or pretends not to.
What's left is a case of spam[4], that the article links twice. I'd suppose because it's the only evidence the author has of low quality questions on Quora.
While Quora is a horrible website, I'd say the evidence shows Slate is worse. Their reporters can't even find genuine evidence of Quora's low quality. They show us Reddit instead.
[1] https://twitter.com/3DrakaiNa/status/1743993622737863056 [2] https://genius.com/23826656 [3] https://twitter.com/Zeronelite/status/1743449094360596802 [4] https://hollywoodactress02.quora.com/OMG-KING-CHARLES-SHOCK-...