While NYT etc mostly stand back as the U.S. crosses the rubicon, what started as a freaking gadget review site seems to employ nearly all the journalists with actual gusto left in America.
I mean if you'd only care about the affiliate revenue, there probably are better niches to serve than citizens looking to protect themselves from tear gas.
They have many other articles directly addressing the rising fascism. That you also only see this as an "affiliate link" without grokking the larger theme of "Gas Masks for tear gas" and how that relates to what ICE is doing to the US is part of the larger problem with contemporary media illiteracy.
It's disappointing that people increasingly expect news to be propaganda for their own side. The news is meant to be a source of information. You don't have to agree with everything an article has to say to get useful information from it. There is no shortage of quasi-revolutionary content on the internet if that's what you seek.
Agreed. I signed up for a paid subscription last month after I was linked to this article[1] which correctly, clearly, and accurately labeled the administration's claims about that incident as lies. This is journalism, and it is worth money. The half-assed "videos give the appearance of possibly contradicting..." decide-for-yourself garbage printed by places like the NYT isn't worth the cost of sending the bits over the wire.
I'm curious ... what are you doing in the comments section of an HN post about an article from The Verge then? I mean I look at articles from El Reg even though it's clearly yellow journalism, and sometimes I do it partially for the same reason someone might listen to a crazy person ranting on the train. Is that it?
The thing I like about this article in particular is that it reads like one of their vapid and paid-for vacuum reviews (https://www.theverge.com/tech/625409/best-robot-vacuum-mops) but it's for civil disobedience. They are in a way poking fun at their own business model and it makes me laugh.
I have a lot of criticisms on The Verge and stopped reading it a long time ago, but one of my favorite moments from them was when Jean-Louis Gassée trolled Nilay Patel and showed just how hypocritical he is and how fragile his ego was.
Posting this article in this format reminds me of truly good story writing. Would've been a top 3 pieces of writing all time for me without all of the anecdotes in between. All of the information you need to know is already written without all of the in-your-faceness of the bridge paragraphs between reviews.
Still an amazing story, props to the Verge. But could've been an all time great.
> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
That would be the 3M™ Organic Vapor/Acid Gas Cartridge/Filter 60923 [0]. Replace after each exposure or 30 days after opening the sealed packaging for best results. A clean shave is important for a good air seal.
The absolute best protection would be a PAPR (powered air-purifying respirator) with a TR-6530N filter [1] installed. Something like the 3M Versaflo M-407SG[2] would fit the filter and provide impact resistance. It can be fitted with a Speedglas 9100XXi [3] (or 9100X/V) auto-darkening filter for protection against flashbangs.
This is an equivalent PAPR [3] with a better form factor which also includes ANSI Z87.1 rated impact-protection (helpful against projectiles) and auto-darkening lenses (helpful against flashbangs/pyrotechnics). It also still works fine even if you keep a beard. I believe this is part of the Optrel Helix product line, which advertises 14-hour battery life. However, the listing I linked does not come with organic vapor / acid-gas filtration. That requires a different form factor for the filter, the Optrel ABE1P Combination Filter [4] offers A1B1E1P certification (Protects against organic gases/vapors, inorganic gases, acid gases, and particulates)
As 'closewith added, "CBRN" or "NBC" masks are also a good option - they are rated for chemical/biological/radiation/nuclear contamination and are available as riot gear with good impact-resistance. Look for A2B2E2K2-P3 ratings / certification.
You could also look into something like the Joseph Leslie Dynamiks A3B3E3K3-rated Jumbo canister for 10000 ppm extended exposure. [5]
I've used the same 3M 6011 (organic vapor) filter for years, for tasks like cleaning with ammonia where I'm not really worried about hazardous exposure just nuisance [0]. And it's lasted just fine (extremely off-label use, of course). So with something like tear gas where you're not worried about actual toxicity per se, I'd think that subjective experience would be fine for knowing when it needs to be changed. If you want to be paranoid, it seems like you could also carry a backup fresh set still in the sealed foil.
With the prices for respirators going up (/me gestures at federal "government" attacking our own cities), if I wanted to save money I'd get a knock-off full face respirator from Amazon (or Ali if you're comfortable transiting the import blockade with this specific item), and then genuine cartridges (NOT from Amazon obviously, lol).
[0] for most things I do, I use the 2097 filters which are primarily particulate with just a small amount of activated charcoal for "nuisance vapors". This is all generally with half-face 7500 bodies.
> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
Just get the one that everyone else does: NIOSH TC-84A-0510 with protection against "Solid Particles, Organic Vapors, Acid Gases, Ammonia, Formaldehyde, Methylamine". Every lab buys this filter, or its manufacturer equivalent, for dealing with god-knows-what, because this one will handle just about anything.
I would definitely do a full-face mask. You can buy them at Lowes for painting. The half masks do nothing to protect your eyes. Also try to get Pxx filters as they withstand oils. Some chemicals are oil-soluble and normal Nxx cartridges can’t handle more than one exposure.
You need to provide a 3M part number. I had to clean up silicone oil and was looking up which solvent works best while being safe as possible and it turns out to be Ethyl Acetate. It works well but is quite potent. A few whiffs had me dizzy to the point where I almost lost balance so I immediately stopped and ordered PPE. I bought a 3M 6900 full face mask and 3M 60928 NIOSH filters for organics and acids. I could not smell anything, breathing was very smooth and natural, and no fogging. When I was finished I walk about 20 feet from the project, took the mask off and immediately was smacked in the face with the solvent fumes.
> Also NIOSH-approved with
3MTM Canister CP3N for use
against CS, CN and as a P100
filter (TC-14G-0251) in riot
conditions, including those
with teargas (non-CBRN).
As someone with big bulky eye glass lenses and frames I looked up the solution for the CM-6 derived masks, https://www.rigad.com/avec-spectacle-insert-for-cm-6-masks. Sounds like you'd have to get new lenses just for it and put 'em in, and the field of view is not great, but it is feasible.
Yes, in addition to inserts which are custom to the mask, there are small frames with a thin rubber band to keep them on you. They were great for roughhousing occasions as well as under mask. The key part is the thinness and impermeability of the band allows for a good seal.
Just how big are your glasses? These aren't goggles that try to seal around your eye sockets, they are shields that seal around your face, sitting in front of your face by an inch or two. If you're worried about the glasses temple breaking the seal, it's still going to provide the vast majority of benefit.
The problem I found was that some of them are designed to keep particulates out but aren't as worried about also keeping particulates in as well. This was relevant-circa 2020. No idea how these rank on that metric.
I'd say basically all of them in this target market - a respirator with check valves is much more comfortable to use.
For the beginning of Covid I modded my 7500 (half face) to remove the check valve flaps and seal up what would normally be the exhaust ports, making both inhale and exhale go through the 2297 filters. It was harder to breathe, more humid, and developed liquid water accumulation over longer periods.
I would think that if you did the same thing with a full face respirator, it would immediately fog up. If you look at the flow path on them, it's something like atmosphere -> filter -> top face portion -> mouth nose portion -> atmosphere, presumably to keep the part you need to see out of full of dry air.
Interesting read as a former CBRN instructor NCO (for a non-US military). A 3M 40mm is definitely the way to go with CP3N filters. They were once cheap but seem to be no longer
An amazon affiliate link wrapped in the mantle of edgy resistance. Ignoring that, why would anybody take this site serious for gasmask recommendations? Shallow and fast-food level information.
We live in a world increasingly becoming hypercapitalistic in every facet of life with problems and solutions being marketed together, all fed with algorithms.
"Have you got chronic sebhorric dermatitis, click this link to make it go away".
"You may be eligible for compensation if you bought a Volkswagen"
"Fight the corrupt fascist government, buy a gas mask here"
"Fight the corrupt socialist government, buy a year's supply of Iodine tablets"
3M 6800 have all but sold out on Amazon, probably because of this review. I had almost forgotten about Portland in 2020. This author has some great writing about the double standard of non-violence as well. 10/10
Zoro still has them in stock. If you haven't heard of them, they are a subsidiary of Grainger, a huge industrial supply company. They seem to ship even faster than Amazon in my experience.
Another curious historical point: gas masks were banned in Seattle, back in '99. I'm unsure if that was repealed because the majority of search results are about a new law regarding masked law enforcement.
The reality is that tear gas is not an effective riot control tool. It works fine against spontaneous mobs of sports fans after their team loses, but it's not especially effective against prepared insurrectionists.
The last time the US faced this level of organized political resistance against lawful federal authority, the Army and National Guard routinely used fixed bayonets to control segregationist protesters. The same technique would work today, but with modern rifles being significantly shorter and hence being less effective bayonet platforms, a dedicated spear might be the better option.
Such weapons, employed in a close-order formation, would be much less lethal than they might seem at first blush. Historical data from 18th and 19th century conflicts shows that, even in battles where bayonet charges happened, there was still an extremely low rate of actual bayonet casualties. Even trained and disciplined soldiers will break and rout rather than let themselves be stabbed with bayonets (or, presumably, spears).
Put aside politics and anti-tear gas use cases: everyone should just have a full face gas mask for all hacker-ish activities, like painting. Skip half-face, go for full face. Half face models don't just leave eyes exposed but hurts the back of the neck. Maybe I'm wearing it wrong, but the headstrap for full face is much more comfortable. They also seal a lot better.
More random tidbits: You'd semi-obviously want a sacrificial wrap over the mask if you're painting, as well as few spare cartridges. There are particulate filters that are just regular paper masks, organic vapor cans for painting, and couple of acid cans for toxic gases. DYOR and use the right one for the task. Particulate filters go on top of gas cans on the iconic 3M 6000 series masks; it's not integrated to the can. The cans also technically only last few hours after opening the package, so technically you should be replacing twice daily. They also can't protect against large amounts of toxic substances like videogame thick green vapors of alien weapons, only what's somewhat casually filtered. In e.g. inside an active volcano, go for full scuba or something that don't rely on filtering. The reason why some masks use pair of cans as opposed to one can, is just for easier breathing. The performance on paper is the same; you can seal off one port with something if you want. The improvement is maybe not negligible, but you get used to breathing through masks quickly anyway. The mini mask that covers mouth and nose inside a full face mask exists to help clear condensation by forcing you to breathe in fresh air around its front surface and force exhalation through the exhaust valve. Removing it will steam up the shield. The air drawn in is filtered, but exhaust is not; if the wearer is infected with something, the mask won't help stop the spread.
All gas masks simply buy the wearer time, and not much time at that...
Automotive Painter shops use an actual filtered external fresh-air feed medical-grade pump, as it avoids whatever mystery compounds are in various paints and cleaners.
Don't cheap out on PPE, as 3M does make good quality filters. =3
"Military grade" listed as a pro on one of them... uhhh well true military grade means it was produced by the lowest bidder to just barely meet specifications in the test environment.
True, but in this case, civilian requirements may be "protects against ambient fumes" while the military specs are "protects against deadly gases that are designed to try to get around gas masks while standing up to impacts and sweat and still allowing enough freedom of movement to engage in combat". Like yeah a mil-spec spoon isn't going to be substantially different than a civilian spoon, but there are some things that even barely meeting the military standard at the lowest possible price is still better than what you get going for civilian specs
The infighting is so tedious. We really need to peacefully explore the "national divorce" idea again. In the 1860s the concept was too intermingled with the evil of slavery to be considered separately.
But realistically, instead of both sides hating each other to the point of perpetual violence, why not just have 2 or 3 countries in which we can all be happy? Trade and travel agreements are easy to establish by treaty. It doesn't have to be this way.
73 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 91.8 ms ] threadit’s pretty rich to both decry media literacy issues in sibling comments while completely elastically using the word “listicle”
Bonus points if someone actually puts some money towards a human journalist by just treating it as an affiliate listicle.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/policy/859055/minneapolis-renee-goo...
Still an amazing story, props to the Verge. But could've been an all time great.
That would be the 3M™ Organic Vapor/Acid Gas Cartridge/Filter 60923 [0]. Replace after each exposure or 30 days after opening the sealed packaging for best results. A clean shave is important for a good air seal.
The absolute best protection would be a PAPR (powered air-purifying respirator) with a TR-6530N filter [1] installed. Something like the 3M Versaflo M-407SG[2] would fit the filter and provide impact resistance. It can be fitted with a Speedglas 9100XXi [3] (or 9100X/V) auto-darkening filter for protection against flashbangs.
This is an equivalent PAPR [3] with a better form factor which also includes ANSI Z87.1 rated impact-protection (helpful against projectiles) and auto-darkening lenses (helpful against flashbangs/pyrotechnics). It also still works fine even if you keep a beard. I believe this is part of the Optrel Helix product line, which advertises 14-hour battery life. However, the listing I linked does not come with organic vapor / acid-gas filtration. That requires a different form factor for the filter, the Optrel ABE1P Combination Filter [4] offers A1B1E1P certification (Protects against organic gases/vapors, inorganic gases, acid gases, and particulates)
As 'closewith added, "CBRN" or "NBC" masks are also a good option - they are rated for chemical/biological/radiation/nuclear contamination and are available as riot gear with good impact-resistance. Look for A2B2E2K2-P3 ratings / certification.
You could also look into something like the Joseph Leslie Dynamiks A3B3E3K3-rated Jumbo canister for 10000 ppm extended exposure. [5]
0: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/dc/v000075263/
1: https://www.mcmaster.com/products/cartridges/manufacturer-mo...
2: https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1892506O/3m-versaflo-m-4...
3: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/speedglas-welding-helmets-us/spe...
3: https://www.mcmaster.com/9258n17/
4: https://optrel.us/product/upgradekit-combifilter-swiss-air-5...
5: https://www.josephlesliedynamiks.com/brochures/Gas_Filters.p...
With the prices for respirators going up (/me gestures at federal "government" attacking our own cities), if I wanted to save money I'd get a knock-off full face respirator from Amazon (or Ali if you're comfortable transiting the import blockade with this specific item), and then genuine cartridges (NOT from Amazon obviously, lol).
[0] for most things I do, I use the 2097 filters which are primarily particulate with just a small amount of activated charcoal for "nuisance vapors". This is all generally with half-face 7500 bodies.
Just get the one that everyone else does: NIOSH TC-84A-0510 with protection against "Solid Particles, Organic Vapors, Acid Gases, Ammonia, Formaldehyde, Methylamine". Every lab buys this filter, or its manufacturer equivalent, for dealing with god-knows-what, because this one will handle just about anything.
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/339742O/3m-full-facepiec...
> Also NIOSH-approved with 3MTM Canister CP3N for use against CS, CN and as a P100 filter (TC-14G-0251) in riot conditions, including those with teargas (non-CBRN).
https://eyeglass.com/products/criss-optical-collection-mag-1...
For the beginning of Covid I modded my 7500 (half face) to remove the check valve flaps and seal up what would normally be the exhaust ports, making both inhale and exhale go through the 2297 filters. It was harder to breathe, more humid, and developed liquid water accumulation over longer periods.
I would think that if you did the same thing with a full face respirator, it would immediately fog up. If you look at the flow path on them, it's something like atmosphere -> filter -> top face portion -> mouth nose portion -> atmosphere, presumably to keep the part you need to see out of full of dry air.
"Have you got chronic sebhorric dermatitis, click this link to make it go away".
"You may be eligible for compensation if you bought a Volkswagen"
"Fight the corrupt fascist government, buy a gas mask here"
"Fight the corrupt socialist government, buy a year's supply of Iodine tablets"
What's the procedure for flagged articles become unflagged? Maybe do I need more karma or something before I can vouch for them?
https://www.zoro.com/3m-full-facepiece-reusable-respirator-w...
https://www.historylink.org/File/2145
ouch. Must be weird living where you live.
The last time the US faced this level of organized political resistance against lawful federal authority, the Army and National Guard routinely used fixed bayonets to control segregationist protesters. The same technique would work today, but with modern rifles being significantly shorter and hence being less effective bayonet platforms, a dedicated spear might be the better option.
Such weapons, employed in a close-order formation, would be much less lethal than they might seem at first blush. Historical data from 18th and 19th century conflicts shows that, even in battles where bayonet charges happened, there was still an extremely low rate of actual bayonet casualties. Even trained and disciplined soldiers will break and rout rather than let themselves be stabbed with bayonets (or, presumably, spears).
More random tidbits: You'd semi-obviously want a sacrificial wrap over the mask if you're painting, as well as few spare cartridges. There are particulate filters that are just regular paper masks, organic vapor cans for painting, and couple of acid cans for toxic gases. DYOR and use the right one for the task. Particulate filters go on top of gas cans on the iconic 3M 6000 series masks; it's not integrated to the can. The cans also technically only last few hours after opening the package, so technically you should be replacing twice daily. They also can't protect against large amounts of toxic substances like videogame thick green vapors of alien weapons, only what's somewhat casually filtered. In e.g. inside an active volcano, go for full scuba or something that don't rely on filtering. The reason why some masks use pair of cans as opposed to one can, is just for easier breathing. The performance on paper is the same; you can seal off one port with something if you want. The improvement is maybe not negligible, but you get used to breathing through masks quickly anyway. The mini mask that covers mouth and nose inside a full face mask exists to help clear condensation by forcing you to breathe in fresh air around its front surface and force exhalation through the exhaust valve. Removing it will steam up the shield. The air drawn in is filtered, but exhaust is not; if the wearer is infected with something, the mask won't help stop the spread.
TL;DR: gas masks is its own mini rabbit hole.
Automotive Painter shops use an actual filtered external fresh-air feed medical-grade pump, as it avoids whatever mystery compounds are in various paints and cleaners.
Don't cheap out on PPE, as 3M does make good quality filters. =3
https://pekesafety.com/blogs/news/a-respirator-that-works-wi...
But realistically, instead of both sides hating each other to the point of perpetual violence, why not just have 2 or 3 countries in which we can all be happy? Trade and travel agreements are easy to establish by treaty. It doesn't have to be this way.
If they start rolling through random neighborhoods and gassing people in their homes like they did in Minneapolis, I’d like to be prepared.