Hard to discuss this with only a short abstract. They don't even give a dose or formulation of the melatonin, and details like "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures." raise more questions than they answer.
Hi Gwern, just wanted to say your post on melatonin helped me sort out my sleep in my twenties. I had hangups using it on a regular basis and your arguments helped me get over that taboo. Thank you.
Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes.
Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against morning cognition.
My understanding is that you ought to take melatonin in small doses (0.3 or so) an hour or two before sleep in order to get tired, whereupon you sleep (normally, ish, unless you take too much and then you get crazy dreams or sleep paralysis). If I take it and go right to bed I always wake up still in the 'window' of its effect.
As a long term insomniac the head line result is not surprising. My overall experience with "sleep aides" is they all lead to impairments in morning cognition. The worst of which don't last just the morning... (seroquel, I'm pointing at you...) Melatonin is surprisingly powerful for a hormone / supplement. For me, it hits like a truck, and I find it strong enough that I had to stop taking it.
I'd be careful with the methodology here. There's been research that shows that most melatonin supplements are megadosed, with something like the "physiological dosage range" being 1 - 2 micrograms (ug.) So I'd hope the researchers got a trustworthy source for their tablets. It seems to me that with such a low dosage range you don't have much margin to avoid errors.
I think when it comes to sleep problems the worst possible place to start is with pills. Pills quickly lead to dependence and a lot of them either stop working or introduce so many side effects that there's little "therapeutic benefit." I think the right approach for insomnia is to focus on improving overall health. A lot of symptoms people go to the doctor for in that category are due to life-style factors. So if you maintain healthy habits you don't have to end up on 10 different pills just to function...
Next, the same experiment could be done with individuals who would be more likely to use melatonin supplements, or even just a broader group than "healthy young adults". I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed since there's a high chance these healthy young adults don't have the problem the supplements are designed for. I'm not surprised about "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures" for these people.
Personal experience: I have mild insomnia* and I sometimes take melatonin. It generally does help, but I can be groggy in the morning, if I took it too late in the evening. Happens sometimes. But for me, it's so much better to be sometimes a bit groggy for a short while, compared to being completely exhausted from sleep deprivation all day.
*I was a startup founder for 10 years and practically did not sleep during that time. Even years after that life, it feels like my body is not responding to melatonin that much. Or my body is not secreting enough itself. Who knows.
melatonin should be consumed in doses an order of magnitude smaller than the smallest available dosage. melatonin should also be consumed in a particular time period to correctly trigger the circadian rhythm. long term consistent melatonin use is not advised outside of special cases (eg elderly where morning cognition is unimpactful). irregardless I don't believe that consuming modified release melatonin is healthy long term, because it breaks the circadian rhythm ... but if it works it works.
if you can afford expensive supplements, perhaps consider trying magnesium threonate for sleep. anecdotally this caused intense dreaming, leading to 1 less sleep cycle being required for restfulness. you could also try eating tons of tabouli and see if a massive apigenin hit calms the body for sleep. skullcap as a tea has some interesting properties regarding GABA modulation. on tea, passionflower is a decent MAO inhibitor and knocks some people out, but that's way less sustainable than melatonin. lastly dont lie down on your right side after eating!!!
My experience with Melatonin was very hit-or-miss. Sometimes it landed like a hammer and I was very groggy the next day. Sometimes it seemed not to work at all. This was with all sorts of doses.
I've found Tart Cherry - as an OTC supplement to work much better. More pleasant drift off to sleep, less waking up at night, and no morning grogginess.
Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.
> The results suggest that negative performance effects of exogenous melatonin may outweigh any benefits for healthy young adults
Not surprising at all. The vast majority of people taking supplements are avoiding either the doctor, eating a better diet, or regular exercise.
What are the odds that someone comfortable taking overpriced sketchy pills is also probably comfortable taking other substances? I only have to look at any random suburban strip mall in the USA to get my answer. I always chuckle at the IV drip place next door to the bar.
Anecdotally, I've taken 3mg a couple of times to adjust my sleep schedule and have found that I do feel a bit drowsy/slow the next morning. Fine for me since it's just ad hoc usage, but I wouldn't take it nightly.
As with so many experiments, the study itself is clear and testing something valid, but when it gets shared somewhere like reddit/HN/Facebook etc. everyone takes the broadest possible, unintended reading.
- study: we tested specifically healthy young adults and found melatonin may have a negative effect on this cohort. We make zero claims about any other cohort.
- every lay person reading the study, of any age: scientists just proved melatonin makes me dumb in the morning! Oh no!
Recently, I started taking a 3mg dose of melatonin for 1-3 days after flying to a timezone requiring a fair amount of effort to get a full night's sleep (3-6+ hours time difference), and find it helps to quickly get me on the new schedule. I maybe feel a little groggy, but nothing unsettling.
Note: I take a trip like this maybe once or twice a year (no more), and typically wake up with zero grogginess otherwise.
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[ 0.22 ms ] story [ 15.8 ms ] threadFor anyone interested: https://gwern.net/melatonin
https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312
Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes.
Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against morning cognition.
My mornings have always been impaired, going back to pre-school. Meds don't make my mornings any worse than my baseline.
I'd be careful with the methodology here. There's been research that shows that most melatonin supplements are megadosed, with something like the "physiological dosage range" being 1 - 2 micrograms (ug.) So I'd hope the researchers got a trustworthy source for their tablets. It seems to me that with such a low dosage range you don't have much margin to avoid errors.
I think when it comes to sleep problems the worst possible place to start is with pills. Pills quickly lead to dependence and a lot of them either stop working or introduce so many side effects that there's little "therapeutic benefit." I think the right approach for insomnia is to focus on improving overall health. A lot of symptoms people go to the doctor for in that category are due to life-style factors. So if you maintain healthy habits you don't have to end up on 10 different pills just to function...
It's a slippery slope, trust me on that.
Personal experience: I have mild insomnia* and I sometimes take melatonin. It generally does help, but I can be groggy in the morning, if I took it too late in the evening. Happens sometimes. But for me, it's so much better to be sometimes a bit groggy for a short while, compared to being completely exhausted from sleep deprivation all day.
*I was a startup founder for 10 years and practically did not sleep during that time. Even years after that life, it feels like my body is not responding to melatonin that much. Or my body is not secreting enough itself. Who knows.
if you can afford expensive supplements, perhaps consider trying magnesium threonate for sleep. anecdotally this caused intense dreaming, leading to 1 less sleep cycle being required for restfulness. you could also try eating tons of tabouli and see if a massive apigenin hit calms the body for sleep. skullcap as a tea has some interesting properties regarding GABA modulation. on tea, passionflower is a decent MAO inhibitor and knocks some people out, but that's way less sustainable than melatonin. lastly dont lie down on your right side after eating!!!
I've found Tart Cherry - as an OTC supplement to work much better. More pleasant drift off to sleep, less waking up at night, and no morning grogginess.
Not surprising at all. The vast majority of people taking supplements are avoiding either the doctor, eating a better diet, or regular exercise.
What are the odds that someone comfortable taking overpriced sketchy pills is also probably comfortable taking other substances? I only have to look at any random suburban strip mall in the USA to get my answer. I always chuckle at the IV drip place next door to the bar.
- study: we tested specifically healthy young adults and found melatonin may have a negative effect on this cohort. We make zero claims about any other cohort.
- every lay person reading the study, of any age: scientists just proved melatonin makes me dumb in the morning! Oh no!
I used to do it in the morning, and my brother recommanded I'd switch to just before sleep.
The difference is stark in effects, and you fall asleep like a baby even when stressed, using red light, with heat waves, etc...
Given it's free and don't have the side effects of regular melatonin supplement, I would encourage every one to give it at least a one week trial.
Edit: Maybe I should try reducing the dose even further (to 200 μg) as mentioned in other posts here
Note: I take a trip like this maybe once or twice a year (no more), and typically wake up with zero grogginess otherwise.