Privatize the losses. These are the largest companies the world has ever seen, sitting on piles of assets like dragons. They have hyped AI endlessly to the point that everyone else is sick of it. If they haven't saved any money, and can't bail themselves out, they deserve bankruptcy.
If you owe the bank $100, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem. If you owe the bank $100 billion, that's country's problem.
I notice these comments everywhere now. It's some rhetorical sleigh of hand that the absence of a refutal leads to a false assumption that their claim is obvious and needs no support.
I mean, I've certainly used these cheap rhetorical tricks myself offhand, but I'd at least try to avoid using it when vagueposting something this out of pocket.
If it’s the country’s problem, then nationalize them. Not loans, not bail outs. Confiscate and figure out how to wind them down in a way that benefits the taxpayers.
If the gov't made bad decisions letting us get to some situation, it doesn't make sense to reward the government and give it even more authority.
That's got perverse consequences. Just like with the corporate leadership, you're encouraging bureaucrats to make bad decisions because (a) they don't have to answer for their bad decisions, and in fact (b) they'll get to expand their authority should their decisions go bad.
The corporate leadership that got us to the problem should suffer, but so should any bureaucrats who had a part it allowing it to happen.
It's kinda like taxes. Who among us would say their tax dollars are and have been well spent? Then why on earth would any of us want to give these idiots more of our hard earned dollars.
You have a point here. It doesn't make sense that a company should get to keep the upside while having downside protection from the government. The problem is that the government makes the biggest bloated legacy nightmare of a corporation look like a 10 person startup. Between the two options I would rather have a pile of my tax money set on fire once every decade decade or so.
> That will make a lot of businesses focus on success here and not somewhere else.
You have a weird definition of theft. We're talking about nationalizing them instead of handing their shareholders a bunch of free money to bail them out. Not getting free money is theft now?
But, more broadly: there's more to the social contract than private property rights. And it's really hard to bring myself to care too much about the private property rights of entities who have shown themselves to not be very respectful of that contract.
Is it "theft" when someone who pays off another's loans takes legal possession of the debtor's assets as compensation? Or only when the government does it?
I am confused. In my country that is what a bailout means. How do you pay money to a company but not buy them? What is it that the state buys from the company, if not ownership, then? Or is it a gift? That would be insane.
The phrase is "that would be good for the economy".
It’s still the notion of trickle down economics at play.
But they did get a 3.5% return on their investment (but not comparable to the equivalent return in the market or even in bonds for the same duration).
That return was in turn used to justify the bailout, but the global macro effects weren’t accounted for: the banks’ fuckup caused misery all over the world for the best part of a decade.
It's a gift. No matter how you structure it - maybe subsidized loans, or anything like that - any bailout that doesn't transfer equity to the government is a gift
Bankruptcy is the substantial portion of this. Receivership already provides a mechanism for taking control and winding down a company without nationalizing it.
Does the US have anything going for it right now besides ai and supporting industries? Something like nationalize or anything extreme would wreck the economy.we would all suffer
I think you may be confusing the (temporary) improved stock price with improved/recovered profitability? I see the (temporary) stock price recovery, as driven PURELY by valuation, i.e. an increase in P/E (instead of EPS).
Intel’s revenue is currently worse than 10 years ago, and gross profits are 2/3 of what they were around 2012.
The temporary price hike was caused by a huge temporary jump in relative valuation (probably because the US Gov started subsidizing).
> Trump admin, to their credit, seem to have somehow figured this out.
> They bailed out Intel and the stock recovered.
This is not demonstrated. What did the Trump admin "figure out"?
Socializing private losses (especially if it's only temporary), is another problem, not a solution.
The IPOs are for "socializing" the losses, in the sense that the losses are dumped on retail investors, who are the general populace. Especially if you consider big pension funds
Nobody who has ever run a business or knows about how a business runs would think that any business "sits on piles of assets like dragons." Very little cash sits idle, usually for anticipated operational expenditures with a reserve for unanticipated expenditures; the rest is invested, loaned, spent on building the business, or returned to investors. If OpenAI is holding $25 billion in cash, it's because they anticipate spending that much in the near future, not because they're sleeping atop it in a mountain cave.
Is the idea that buying GPUs before you buy the datacenters is hoarding but buying datacenters before you buy the GPUs is not? Everyone would prefer to put all their capacity into play. Demand is so high that every marginal computer here is marginal operating revenue.
In this particular case and with these particular companies... yes, they were sitting in a hoard of cash like dragons. They literally didn't know what to do with it, so they gambled on The Next Big Thing™....
Either way, it's more efficient to give whatever money to bail out individuals/consumers than to bail out rent seeking organizations
What we need is a revocation of—or hard limits on, with Congressional review—the Exchange Stabilisation Fund, Defense Production Act and whatever the fuck let the President unilaterally invest taxpayer money in Intel.
This, a non-binding resolution, does none of that.
How exactly are House Democrats supposed to revoke the Exchange Stabilization Fund or change the Defense Production Act when they don't have a majority in the House? All they can do is signal what they intend to do if they regain the majority.
Everybody hates AI, even Republicans hate AI. Republican members of congress might not want to explain to their constituents why they are going to vote against an anti-bailout bill for AI, so some of them might opt to support such bill, fearing their constituents may vote them out of office.
> How exactly are House Democrats supposed to revoke the Exchange Stabilization Fund or change the Defense Production Act when they don't have a majority in the House?
They're going to have a majority in about 3 days. They won't have a veto proof majority but they will have a majority.
Many of the US Democrat party apparently love this kind of thing
In the past couple days I’ve heard glee and celebration at the idea of more non-binding things “getting things onto the record so everyone can see where loyalties lies”
So if you are a politician catering to your constituents, that makes sense to do
US Democrat Party are expected to obtain a majority in the House and Senate, remaining unable to pass any law through the Senate except an annual budget reconciliation, the vessel will continue to be stalled by the Filibuster needing 60 seats, vote to remove power that needs 67 seats, veto override ability that also needs 67 seats. This effectively keeps the US legislative body paralyzed but even more so than now. It will now also stall appointments from the President, so additional agency heads and judges won’t be installed but the Federal Government already did that for the last 2 years and will continue all of its own causes unabated
I think one criticism of that party are the performative nature of its constituents and representatives, where a “virtue” is demanded to be shown more than legislative change, as opposed to focusing on things that could garner consensus of which there are many, revisiting other causes when the seats are actually there
If they win congress and the senate every bill will be vetoed anyway and they won’t have the votes to override the veto. It will be two years of paralysis.
> How exactly are House Democrats supposed to revoke the Exchange Stabilization Fund or change the Defense Production Act when they don't have a majority in the House?
We should have let the auto industry fail in 2008 too. The factories and IP still would be there for more innovative entrepreneurs to buy and make use of. Instead we have 3 legacy companies that can't even deliver an EV to compete with Tesla after 15 years of pretending to try.
You can argue that did actually happen. China invested in GM through their partnership during that crisis and in exchange got anything that was left worth having from GM. Now GM is an old husk lumbering along waiting to die.
Disagree. The auto industry was not the cause of the great recession, and the money put into the auto manufacturers did help to remove excess capacity. Their subsequent failure to innovate is not Obama's fault.
So I watch a lot of auto industry news and from their point of view and everything that has happened has made perfect sense. They react to the demands from the government in power. They got a mandate from Biden to go EV so they invested heavily into retooling and dropping their ICE programs. They were not going to piss off whoever was in power, especially not the Democrats so they did it.
When Trump took over, he scrapped so many of these programs and the companies were forced to take massive writeoffs in their investments. Those executives that championed these moves to EVs are persona non grata now in the industry(at least for the time being). These back and forth demands is really causing a lot of trouble for the legacy makers.
Tesla managing to be able to detach themselves from having to answer to wallstreet and not actually caring about what the government says has allowed them to go at their own pace. The other American EV companies are on life support and the Chinese companies have always answered to one entity: the CCP.
Chapter 7, please! I would like them to *liquidate* Smaug's GPU hoard; and I would like them to do that all at once, in a swift and efficient fire sale.
Likely with no place to run it. I considered an old (circa 2017) retired DGX-1 which has 8x V100 32GB GPUs as an alternative to an M5 Ultra Mac Studio. The problem is the power draw. The modern GPUs AI companies are sitting on draw vastly more power.
I'd expect them to give "trusted partners" first dibs. You know, firms that can warehouse the chips and keep prices high. Gotta protect NVDA at all costs. I'd love to be proven wrong.
AMEN AMEN AMEN! This doesn't mean ai goes bust, this actually would force innovation even more. AI isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We have the CEO of OpenAI claiming that models running on consumer hardware is a waste of resources and encouraging that it should stay in big data centers that are extremely wasteful when it comes to resources. Most consumers couldn't afford to waste away their resources to run consumer models. I love technology. I have a deep-seated level of resentment of the difference in treatment these big corporations get vs the people.
Edit: Taking bailouts off the table forces discipline, it strips away the bloat and forces real efficiency.
Indeed they may, but they will be taking a lot of people's 401k's with them. Does anyone here have a 401k and have they analyzed the portfolio to verify none of the assets are related to the AI companies? In some cases it will not be obvious.
If one owns a standard cap-weighted S&P 500 index fund or a default target-date fund in their 401k then about 30% to 40% of every dollar contributed goes directly to the dominant tech giants driving AI.
I am not a financial expert and this is not financial advice.
That's the scam, man. The managed funds are the marks in the room.
When I first heard the scheme as a kid[1] -- that my retirement depended on giving my money back to the owners, all in the hope that it will come back to me in fifty years -- my first thought was, "I'm never seeing that money". I signed for the matching contribution and not a cent more -- getting 2 bucks of Funny Money for each buck seemed like a decent gamble. As I got older I started thinking that the system must work, all the grown ups know what they're doing, "it's the responsible thing to do". Etc etc etc. Now, I'm coming back around to my teenage opinions: they're going to figure out a way to take every single cent of my money.
Shit like this makes people into goldbugs and ammo hoarders. Or worse.
[1] My generation had some of the last pension positions, and 401ks were fairly the new thing.
> they will be taking a lot of people's 401k's with them
The US needs to stop allowing this kind of thing to happen, where the economy gets so hyper-concentrated in a few companies that they can hold the entire country's (and arguably much of the world's) retirement savings hostage.
We had that happen in the late 90s/early 2000s with Nortel. Before they collapsed (and infamously devastated their current and former employees' pensions in doing so), Nortel represented a THIRD of the TSX. The TSX responded by capping any individual stock at 10% of the exchange's overall value, with a forced rebalancing in the event that cap is struck.
At this point, that 10% is probably higher than it should be, since it doesn't account for entire extremely-well-funded sectors being caught up in a hype cycle like AI's, the sum of whose component stocks could easily exceed 10%.
I doubt bailout was originally introduced to help the companies. I think the point is rather that not bailing out has worse outcomes and higher costs for the general population than wasting public money. Of course the companies need then still to stop doing their harmful operations, otherwise you need to bail them out again and then the costs of bailing them out will eventually become higher.
The issue is that this gives perverse incentives for companies, unless you also have proper regulation, which you should have anyway. The issue is that you don't.
But in this case I agree with you, because in addition to the costs, there are also huge benefits for the general population to letting these companies fail. Both in actual behaviour and power right now, but also as a future incentive for all other companies.
I was pretty vocal here about covering losses for depositors at Silicon Valley Bank because they were mostly small businesses who have more important things to do than manage the risk of their bank deposits.
I won't make a similar argument here because about an AI bailout because the counterparties know the risks, but there are pensions with requirements to hold high-grade debt buying these bonds. An AI bubble burst doesn't just show up in the Nasdaq, it hits pensions.
They (the AI companies) are sitting on piles all right, but not "assets like dragons". Rather, what they are sitting on is piles and piles of debt that eventually will come due to be paid back. The "bet" their CEO's are making is that some "profit angle" will materialize at some point that provides the funds to pay back that debt when the bills start coming due.
> If they haven't saved any money
They have not "saved any money" (not in the sense of a "saving account" in a bank). They are leveraged as far into the future as one can see, and betting that before that lever starts to move they will have a revenue stream sufficient to pay it back.
Let's keep in mind that many hedge, pension and retirement funds have investments in these big companies. In short, the potential losses are already socialized.
Gosh I really gotta get a real job again. The RLHF gig work has been great while I’ve been in school - flexibility, good pay - but I’ve known the whole time that it won’t last. Gig workers will be the last consideration when it all falls apart
The investment to date has been ridiculous and undisciplined. It’s very hard to understand the valuations of these companies. If this wasn’t an election year I think there would be more oversight and critical review. But we have a very unserious party in charge right now.
It’s good that it’s being discussed. We’re tired of the wealth class privatizing the profits and leaving us to cover the costs.
Then the bill will never become relevant and it’ll just be a waste of time and you can laugh at it in hindsight. And I’m sure none of these companies will lobby against it, since it’s just tilting at windmills and won’t mean anything.
I agree with much of your sentiment, but if the lack of bailout (which let me reiterate, I agree with) leads to a recession, it will kill the D chances in 2028. They will apply this calculus to their political behavior, and (as is typical for the Ds) will do nothing.
The Democrats I suspect are planning on doing the exact opposite unfortunately. They were very wimpy on the bubbly ai stuff under Biden, why would they change when they don't get punished from their own constituents for going against their promises. Same party apparatus as a whole that existed under Kamala. We need a Trump style clean out of the Democratic party because the brand is as bad as the Republican brand at this point. I can't with surity say that the Democrats are going to do anything to reign in big tech, all I can hope for is that they will be slightly better than trump or if not that, no worse.
There are almost certainly bank execs who are looking at Anthropic's IPO and thinking "if it crashes, we'll get bailed out". Saying "no you won't" now, before the IPO, when it has a chance to affect peoples' behavior, is a worthwhile thing to do.
How? Since when do banks care about IPO crashes? A lot of IPOs crashed after listing; I can’t remember a single time when a bailout was needed after an IPO.
It’s a resolution, so pure fluff. That said, a prohibition on bailing out this sector in particular might make it possible to claw back anything this regime illegally gives.
You mean the dot com bubble, which was in fact a major bubble that caused a lot of huge financial issues in the country? You'd think someone on a tech forum would have heard of it, but I suppose some of us would rather make asinine clapback comments than think about what we're saying.
It was part of the bubble. Amazon's stock lost over 90% of it's value. The company survived, but many other companies did not. A bubble does not mean a company fails just that valuations are too high and that there will be a massive correction over a short period of time. Some companies fail, others survive.
What's your long position? You can't pick winners or losers in a bubble. All the leading AI companies are valuing themselves as if they each own the entire TAM without any clear moat. It's obviously not going to work out.
Bubbles don't mean the tech won't one day be great and materialize into something great.
They mean there is a mismatch in valuations/equity/debt to revenue today, putting far too much emphasis far too quickly on potential revenue some time tomorrow.
For years the consensus on Hacker News was that the ride share companies were a bubble and it was all going to collapse. Nobody would pay profitable rates once the early discounted rides ended, everyone said.
Then the rideshare companies became sustainable and they’re accepted as a normal part of life.
I have no idea who would they even bailout. Investors? Why? What for? What would that change?
Bailing out banks made some sense so that they couldn't operate. Without the bailout there would be no more banks and a hundred million of people left on the ice.
If you want to keep AI operating you can just (temporarily?) ban investors from tearing down the AI companies they invested in for parts. You could say they are important for national security or something. I'm sure they are already earning enough to keep the lights on. Just not enout to give investors payback for insate capital expediture to set up.
Such ban wolud the governement zero, especially if you write the law well enough, so that it can't be succesfully challenged in court.
Yeah, probably it wouldn't be as bad as they made it seem to be, but still, there was a reasoning behind the bailout. I see not reasoning for AI bailout.
There's an existing concept of and precedent for, "Too big to fail."
The wikipedia article gets the idea across [0].
This creates an implied "insurance" program, tilting the risk profile toward being aggressive. Taking a moon shot isn't so scary when you think the government will probably step in if it blows up bad enough.
This fluffy, political statement is a message: don't count on it.
Perhaps it will give investors/executives a few thoughts on preparing to deal with a potential blowup themselves?
For some reason* the rhetoric is focused on bank bailouts in 2008, but the more direct analogy is the auto bailouts in 2008, which weren't strictly necessary but did protect an industry many Americans felt attached to. I think it's reasonable to worry that the same thing could happen to AI companies.
Sam Altman has been pushing for the US to own a chunk of OpenAI since February 2025. Literally the earliest he could get back into the Oval Office after the inauguration.
a) How courageous for them declaring wanting to ban something that isn't being proposed
b) if an AI bubble burst were to happen, the fallout would be severe, ie. hard to abstain for policy makers from giving the public ease of mind
c) All this proposal wants is to drive a wrench between the GOP and its new (?) populist voters, that don't want any favors given to any Big Tech oligarchs, regardless of it being AI or not.
d) this may work or not – neither party is going to abstain from bailing them out, anyways.
Not sure why you're downvoted because you're right. If there wasn't a major election next week this would not even be happening. It's meaningless theatre to get the public cheering or jeering on their way to the polls.
In the 2008/2009 crisis the bailouts were approved by a red admin (Bush) and then the check signed, delivered hat in hand, by a blue admin (Obama). If they want a bailout they will get a bailout no matter which party is in charge.
I seem to recall OpenAI's CFO inadvertently proposing a bailout about a year ago. I'm fairly confident that the industry has been considering the possibility of one since before that statement.
This was my thought. The last recession bailout was by democrats (in 2008), and they did so to influence the industry in their direction. I have a hard time imaging republicans would do a bailout, because they have no interest in creating new regulations even in their benefit.
absolutely ZERO Ai companies need bailouts. this is complete theater.
if you are reading this, please do some research on how much money inference prints? its not wildly spoken about because people don’t yap about printing money.
“Oh but it’ll all come crashing down” - say you don’t work at a lab or know anyone at a lab.
My greater annoyance is HN becoming annoying political in the past few years. Sure, everything is political now but the moderation siloed these posts better. Maybe the user base is too old now. Fresh blood went to Discord or X.
Projecting that none of these AI companies will demand bailouts after the bubble crash is wildly speculative in the other direction. This has nothing to do with politics.
This doesn’t actually require anything like a law, it’s basically a verbal promise. Or am I misreading?
If AI companies were to go bankrupt, it’s possible they’d be nationalized. I don’t see any other feasible option besides that or a bailout (or one but it’s effectively the other, e.g. “nationalized” but the employees including leaders are the same, or bailed out but already subservient to the military). I think the best case is for the compute to be made effectively public: giving every citizen free access, since we’re paying taxes that prevent their bankruptcy.
A lot of comments read this is as fluff. And in some ways it is.
However, looking at the other side, I think what this might do is add some barrier or consideration when a bailout is considered.
The last time we did large scale bailouts (TARP[0], in 2008), It was rushed through and ratified in around two weeks following the sudden collapse of Lehman.
Any measures we can take to ensure that we don't fall into a situation where there is only one choice is sensible.
It's a signal to voters sure but it's also a signal to AI companies and investors to hedge their bets because there's not going to be a backstop if they come crying.
There was never any backstop to equity investors at any time.
Even during GFC, equity investors were wiped out. Same with Silicon Valley Bank.
This trope that investors are bailed out is doing more harm than good. Because intervention and backstops actually helps the economy from not going into a death spiral that destroys the poor and middle class
A bill with opposition from the president brought by a minority party that currently has no majority power in any area of government... I think this is probably a better thing to do than a bill at the moment.
After midterms, they would still need significant public support to pressure against a veto regardless. So what you call puffery, is probably a very necessary first step.
Yes, by the same logic manifestos and other statements of intent are also "pure puffery" as they're not yet law either.
Or even proposing new laws by floating bills when they don't already have the guaranteed votes - or even know they'll never pass. I'm sure many here would also want to dismiss that as "pure puffery".
Really why do we let anyone but the current majority party say anything at all? It's just puffery.
> Any measures we can take to ensure that we don't fall into a situation where there is only one choice is sensible.
Amen. Prepare for a disaster tomorrow by planning for it today. The specific implementation might be mediocre, but we should be pushing for more, especially vis-a-vis pushing for anyone in the company who knowingly was involved in fraud to go to prison.
Treasury's summary is missing important pieces of the story. TARP failed its first vote in Congress, with opponents rightly pointing out that it was being rushed through and alternatives ought to be considered. But five days later, no concrete alternative had arisen, and it was clear to at least 60 reps who flipped their vote that something had to be done or the financial system was going to collapse.
It’s worth noting, though, that TARP succeeded in saving the US economy, which was much less affected by the crisis, and turned a profit for the US government.
There is really no comparison. Frozen credit markets would have dragged the global economy into depression. A crash in tech stocks will just cause investors to lose some wealth. Nobody depends on AI for core operations. Not yet at least.
Also, we did a long-term fix for a 2007-style crisis already with Dodd-Frank. Government can now invoke "orderly liquidation" before a crisis happens. When commercial banks failed a few years ago, FDIC solved it in a matter of weeks with no outlay of money from Congress.
Propping up the stock market to fuel consumer spending is extremely regressive. The top 10-20% make up ~50% of consumer spending. [1] Effectively you're giving the wealthy a risk-free bet with huge payoff if it succeeds. If that bet succeeds it consequentially means a ton of job displacement which will mostly affect the other 90%.
which government lever can increase the wealth of the lower 80% of income earners in the way you want? the problem with plain progressive taxation is that government spending is inefficient - do we want to pay the prices it costs to convince people to do backbreaking work building ghost cities and bridges to nowhere, it's not like in China where everything is driven by fakery and coercion. compare that to the seemingly unlimited cushy office bullshit jobs that bloat in the private sector creates.
> A crash in tech stocks will just cause investors to lose some wealth.
The number of broader funds that are heavily invested in these companies as well, plus the unprecedented municipal, state, and national investment in data centers and the like, make this far more rippling than you think.
That's my horror/worry. The 2008 was started by the collapse of the real estate market. Banking collapsed because they were absurdly overleveraged.
Are the banks currently being stress tested? Is the testing honest?
Is anyone evaluating the potential impact to the other funds? Or are people being sidelined if they're not on the bandwagon, given that the non-AI market is in overall decline? Are pensioners _not_ going to receive help if an AI collapse tanks their retirement, despite them having basically zero control over the investment?
Why is the “bust” part of the economic cycle something to be avoided at all costs? Isn’t this a natural part of the cycle, like smaller fires that clear out undergrowth in the forest? Isn’t it possible that preventing this by any and all means will lead to much worse outcomes in the long run?
Moral hazard as a concept (as something to be avoided) basically doesn’t exist anymore. Or rather, the whole market now embodies moral hazard. This seems bad.
This is bad, but it seems better than a complete collapse of the economy, mass starvation, and a bloody revolution, which is what often happens when a declining status quo is maintained by force. Reality has a way of exerting itself, eventually.
Financial failure of an AI lab wouldn’t make that AI disappear.
If people depend on them (aka demand) the IP of the labs would be valuable, someone would purchase it in bankruptcy, and they would continue serving the model.
There is basically no comparison to the credit market collapse, even though all of the simplified comparisons try to draw a straight line between the two.
The real concern is different: The theory is that if the frontier labs start collapsing, they will argue that their failure is equivalent to the US losing AI supremacy, which is equivalent to losing the future if you believe AI is winner take all. The argument is that they’ll be financially reckless and then ask the government to backstop losses if it falters, both to retain their lead and to protect the overall economy.
The other part that of this is the increasingly widespread belief that AI is a total bubble without demand and it’s all going to collapse because there’s no profits to be found at all because it’s all financial theater. That argument is harder to make if you’ve looked at the actual unit economics of these companies (hint: Anthropic isn’t subsidizing inference like so many believed). AI is not going away and the demand for compute will only increase. The question is how accurately these scale ups track it and if they’re going to dip below the insolvency threshold from getting it wrong.
But if the companies blow up, the technology doesn’t go away. The model weights aren’t deleted. The ML engineers don’t retire. Companies get restructured, IP assets can be sold to new operators, and engineers move to new companies with new business models.
In a similar scenario though I would imagine there would likely be a similar level of urgency to act quickly that would likely steamroll or sidestep in many ways whatever barriers or considerations such a resolution might enact.
Maybe I'm just jaded but this just seems to be how the world works.
2008 was rushed, but at least the people rushing it were competent.
What would happen if the bubble burst tomorrow, with the clowns sitting at the helm of the USA?
I'm not sure your president would choose to save the American people rather than bailing our his CEO friends.
There's money to be made as backshish if Trump bails Altman and Altman gives back a %age of this to his helper..
>"Better to just oppose all bailouts for all sectors, always."
This is exactly the line of thought that turned the Wall Street crash into the Great Depression, which we learned from and did not repeat in 2008. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Fully support it. We’ve had a moral hazard in the USA for half a century with constant bailouts for speculation and gambling by businesses.
We must let them fail, no matter how many jobs it costs, no matter what the harm looks like in the short term, to send a clear and unambiguous signal to others that the government won’t backstop your shitty bets.
Any pulse on how likely this is to pass or what hurdles it faces? Neews like these give me hope but often they are written before anything materializes.
How many people in this thread think that when the Dems win midterms the AI boom has a hard switch to a bust? I really feel like they will rapidly expedite the process instead of having air come out. I definitely didn't think the market would run up right to the date though.
As a Danish zillennial I think the average American zillennial is far more radically anti-capitalist, anti-business than the average Danish one. Half of them may be good at hiding the sentiments behind right-wing-coded "anti-globalist" and "anti-H-1B" narratives but it's obviously left-wing coded populism.
For the rest of us, that also means the S&P 500 free lunch* will soon be over.
American zillennials are going to get their free healthcare and free higher education, and they'll do it in a way that makes France look like a well-managed, investor-friendly country.
*Unless you own real estate in Copenhagen, one of the biggest sources of wealth creation in Denmark since 2015 has been our pension funds and their exposure to US stocks.
The Danish status quo is radically anti-capitalist and anti-business by American standards. Do you actually think the average Danish zillennial is in favor of moving to a more American model (privatized healthcare, minimal union protections, etc.) ?
The major buyers of inference are not government. The major funders are not government. And the industry isn’t predicated on some sort of government backstop (like perhaps banking).
What’s your proposed mechanism here? Maybe data center buildout risk, but that seems mostly local policy?
1. The AI race has been essentially been a nation cold war arms race with China - so that would be the government backing the race.
2. The previous Biden administration was going to put a lock down on all things AI (remember: The 10²⁶ FLOPs Rule)
3. The populist anger about data centers will have a strong political arm to investigate and shut down efforts (at all levels).
4. Energy buildout will be intentionally slow down through various mechanisms controlled by dems.
5. Financial regulatory bodies will have strong teeth.
FWIW this isn't meant to be political but more a state of play looking at the real factors of Dems getting power and the impact to the market place.
Marginally greater skepticism is probably a good thing in terms of avoiding a big shock when some big AI player, like Oracle for example, gets into serious financial trouble.
Not going to happen. Friendly reminder that when it came to money, politicians know exactly where the bread is buttered. When it came to Silicon Valley Bank bailout, Summers himself personally intervened[1]. Naturally, that is perfectly fine, but if one was to suggest the same for .. say.. students loan, immediately people will descend crying horrified cries of 'but but fiscal responsibility'.
For the people in the comments stating that this is just fluff for voters, that may be true. But consider that this memo has another target audience: Investors, Banks, and VCs.
I know that many people in those spaces are investing in AI precisely because they believe that should their AI investments fail, the industry will be bailed out by the federal government. Getting AI to be seen favorably by the administration and putting AI within civic government systems and inside defense contracts is a pretty big push towards that outcome.
But this is really socialism. It was not a bailout of banks, it was socialism for wealthy. Did the people lose their houses? Yes! What about the people who made obscene profits from lending money to people when they should not? Did they lose their money? No. We - the taxpayers, the ex home owners - gave them money.
What about socialism for the egg industry? When the centralized chicken stocks got a disease, we people who were paying usurious prices for food, also provided payments to ensure the wealthy owners did not suffer.
Socialism for the wealthy === good, socialism for the poor === evil. Hmmm. Oh no that can't be so lets call socialism for the rich "a bailout".
Since we force people on food stamps to work now, maybe with this "bailout" we should force those people to work minimum wage jobs?
Nah, the wealthy would have been fine either way. Bailouts are done to placate the common voter and keep their lights on. The great depression didn't see the rich and powerful starving in most cases.
The bailouts were loans, which returned slightly more than was borrowed.
Besides, business were net tax payers. It's perfectly reasonable we lend them back some of their own money so they can continue to pay taxes next year.
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[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 34.7 ms ] threadSigned, the Silent Majority
If you owe the bank $100, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem. If you owe the bank $100 billion, that's country's problem.
That's got perverse consequences. Just like with the corporate leadership, you're encouraging bureaucrats to make bad decisions because (a) they don't have to answer for their bad decisions, and in fact (b) they'll get to expand their authority should their decisions go bad.
The corporate leadership that got us to the problem should suffer, but so should any bureaucrats who had a part it allowing it to happen.
It's kinda like taxes. Who among us would say their tax dollars are and have been well spent? Then why on earth would any of us want to give these idiots more of our hard earned dollars.
That will make a lot of businesses focus on success here and not somewhere else.
> That will make a lot of businesses focus on success here and not somewhere else.
You have a weird definition of theft. We're talking about nationalizing them instead of handing their shareholders a bunch of free money to bail them out. Not getting free money is theft now?
But, more broadly: there's more to the social contract than private property rights. And it's really hard to bring myself to care too much about the private property rights of entities who have shown themselves to not be very respectful of that contract.
If you dont want to provide a loan, fine. I dont see how you justify seizing the company.
Imagine asking the bank for a loan and they say "no, and we are also taking your car".
Don't ask for a loan if you don't want a loan.
https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/programs
While there were small business programs they were administered through banks, who generally did not pass along the generosity.
The phrase is "that would be good for the economy".
It’s still the notion of trickle down economics at play.
But they did get a 3.5% return on their investment (but not comparable to the equivalent return in the market or even in bonds for the same duration).
That return was in turn used to justify the bailout, but the global macro effects weren’t accounted for: the banks’ fuckup caused misery all over the world for the best part of a decade.
They bailed out Intel and the stock recovered.
Might do the same.
It takes forever to do anything new in hardware.
This is unfortunately a VERY long game.
Intel’s revenue is currently worse than 10 years ago, and gross profits are 2/3 of what they were around 2012.
The temporary price hike was caused by a huge temporary jump in relative valuation (probably because the US Gov started subsidizing).
See the historical graphs:
- https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/INTC/intel/pe-rati...
- https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/INTC/intel/revenue
- https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/INTC/intel/gross-p...
Big companies are like big ships. Takes a LONG time to turn.
Game is not over yet.
> They bailed out Intel and the stock recovered.
This is not demonstrated. What did the Trump admin "figure out"? Socializing private losses (especially if it's only temporary), is another problem, not a solution.
Isn't that what the IPOs are for?
Also funny enough - AAPL is siting on 62B$ cash according to google search.
Either way, it's more efficient to give whatever money to bail out individuals/consumers than to bail out rent seeking organizations
> Microsoft CEO says the company doesn't have enough electricity to install all the AI GPUs in its inventory
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-ceo-says-company-do...
This, a non-binding resolution, does none of that.
How exactly are House Democrats supposed to revoke the Exchange Stabilization Fund or change the Defense Production Act when they don't have a majority in the House? All they can do is signal what they intend to do if they regain the majority.
They're going to have a majority in about 3 days. They won't have a veto proof majority but they will have a majority.
In the past couple days I’ve heard glee and celebration at the idea of more non-binding things “getting things onto the record so everyone can see where loyalties lies”
So if you are a politician catering to your constituents, that makes sense to do
US Democrat Party are expected to obtain a majority in the House and Senate, remaining unable to pass any law through the Senate except an annual budget reconciliation, the vessel will continue to be stalled by the Filibuster needing 60 seats, vote to remove power that needs 67 seats, veto override ability that also needs 67 seats. This effectively keeps the US legislative body paralyzed but even more so than now. It will now also stall appointments from the President, so additional agency heads and judges won’t be installed but the Federal Government already did that for the last 2 years and will continue all of its own causes unabated
I think one criticism of that party are the performative nature of its constituents and representatives, where a “virtue” is demanded to be shown more than legislative change, as opposed to focusing on things that could garner consensus of which there are many, revisiting other causes when the seats are actually there
https://polymarket.com/predictions/midterms
When Trump took over, he scrapped so many of these programs and the companies were forced to take massive writeoffs in their investments. Those executives that championed these moves to EVs are persona non grata now in the industry(at least for the time being). These back and forth demands is really causing a lot of trouble for the legacy makers.
Tesla managing to be able to detach themselves from having to answer to wallstreet and not actually caring about what the government says has allowed them to go at their own pace. The other American EV companies are on life support and the Chinese companies have always answered to one entity: the CCP.
Chapter 7, please! I would like them to *liquidate* Smaug's GPU hoard; and I would like them to do that all at once, in a swift and efficient fire sale.
- your elected representatives
Edit: Taking bailouts off the table forces discipline, it strips away the bloat and forces real efficiency.
Indeed they may, but they will be taking a lot of people's 401k's with them. Does anyone here have a 401k and have they analyzed the portfolio to verify none of the assets are related to the AI companies? In some cases it will not be obvious.
If one owns a standard cap-weighted S&P 500 index fund or a default target-date fund in their 401k then about 30% to 40% of every dollar contributed goes directly to the dominant tech giants driving AI.
I am not a financial expert and this is not financial advice.
When I first heard the scheme as a kid[1] -- that my retirement depended on giving my money back to the owners, all in the hope that it will come back to me in fifty years -- my first thought was, "I'm never seeing that money". I signed for the matching contribution and not a cent more -- getting 2 bucks of Funny Money for each buck seemed like a decent gamble. As I got older I started thinking that the system must work, all the grown ups know what they're doing, "it's the responsible thing to do". Etc etc etc. Now, I'm coming back around to my teenage opinions: they're going to figure out a way to take every single cent of my money.
Shit like this makes people into goldbugs and ammo hoarders. Or worse.
[1] My generation had some of the last pension positions, and 401ks were fairly the new thing.
We had that happen in the late 90s/early 2000s with Nortel. Before they collapsed (and infamously devastated their current and former employees' pensions in doing so), Nortel represented a THIRD of the TSX. The TSX responded by capping any individual stock at 10% of the exchange's overall value, with a forced rebalancing in the event that cap is struck.
At this point, that 10% is probably higher than it should be, since it doesn't account for entire extremely-well-funded sectors being caught up in a hype cycle like AI's, the sum of whose component stocks could easily exceed 10%.
Dragons are famous for sitting on gold.
Today, approximately 7%–12% of gold is used for micro-plating connectors, contact pins, and circuitry in smartphones, computers, and GPS devices.
> 1. Total AWS Gold: 10,000,000 servers multiplied by 1.875 grams equals 18,750,000 grams (18,750 kg).
> 2. Bezos's Share: 18,750 kg multiplied by an 8.5% ownership stake equals 1,593.75 kg
The issue is that this gives perverse incentives for companies, unless you also have proper regulation, which you should have anyway. The issue is that you don't.
But in this case I agree with you, because in addition to the costs, there are also huge benefits for the general population to letting these companies fail. Both in actual behaviour and power right now, but also as a future incentive for all other companies.
I won't make a similar argument here because about an AI bailout because the counterparties know the risks, but there are pensions with requirements to hold high-grade debt buying these bonds. An AI bubble burst doesn't just show up in the Nasdaq, it hits pensions.
They (the AI companies) are sitting on piles all right, but not "assets like dragons". Rather, what they are sitting on is piles and piles of debt that eventually will come due to be paid back. The "bet" their CEO's are making is that some "profit angle" will materialize at some point that provides the funds to pay back that debt when the bills start coming due.
> If they haven't saved any money
They have not "saved any money" (not in the sense of a "saving account" in a bank). They are leveraged as far into the future as one can see, and betting that before that lever starts to move they will have a revenue stream sufficient to pay it back.
I have seen this used abusively too many times.
The moral majority is neither.
If your opinion is the majority opinion you do not need to say so.
It’s good that it’s being discussed. We’re tired of the wealth class privatizing the profits and leaving us to cover the costs.
So there will be a huge pressure. Trump Jr. and the Kushners are invested in all sorts of bubbly assets, too.
The Democrats should do this however, and if they win the midterms keep their promises for once and block everything. Then 2028 is easy.
Promises in the wind.
Also, if I lose my money I am not in position to get bailout.
Also, shorting requires managing to not only predict drop in price but also when it will happen.
Also, I do not have large amount of money investable into risky instruments.
Bubbles don't mean the tech won't one day be great and materialize into something great.
They mean there is a mismatch in valuations/equity/debt to revenue today, putting far too much emphasis far too quickly on potential revenue some time tomorrow.
The vast majority of companies failed almost immediately.
Oh, you mean the period that is colloquially referred to as "the .com bubble?
For years the consensus on Hacker News was that the ride share companies were a bubble and it was all going to collapse. Nobody would pay profitable rates once the early discounted rides ended, everyone said.
Then the rideshare companies became sustainable and they’re accepted as a normal part of life.
Bailing out banks made some sense so that they couldn't operate. Without the bailout there would be no more banks and a hundred million of people left on the ice.
If you want to keep AI operating you can just (temporarily?) ban investors from tearing down the AI companies they invested in for parts. You could say they are important for national security or something. I'm sure they are already earning enough to keep the lights on. Just not enout to give investors payback for insate capital expediture to set up.
Such ban wolud the governement zero, especially if you write the law well enough, so that it can't be succesfully challenged in court.
> and a hundred million of people left on the ice
That is not true. There would be a lot of banks and people would have lost only part of their money.
There's an existing concept of and precedent for, "Too big to fail." The wikipedia article gets the idea across [0].
This creates an implied "insurance" program, tilting the risk profile toward being aggressive. Taking a moon shot isn't so scary when you think the government will probably step in if it blows up bad enough.
This fluffy, political statement is a message: don't count on it.
Perhaps it will give investors/executives a few thoughts on preparing to deal with a potential blowup themselves?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail
* yes, I know what the reason is
https://youtu.be/FvBf9HBT_F8?t=1672
A bailout is part of their planning.
b) if an AI bubble burst were to happen, the fallout would be severe, ie. hard to abstain for policy makers from giving the public ease of mind
c) All this proposal wants is to drive a wrench between the GOP and its new (?) populist voters, that don't want any favors given to any Big Tech oligarchs, regardless of it being AI or not.
d) this may work or not – neither party is going to abstain from bailing them out, anyways.
In the 2008/2009 crisis the bailouts were approved by a red admin (Bush) and then the check signed, delivered hat in hand, by a blue admin (Obama). If they want a bailout they will get a bailout no matter which party is in charge.
if you are reading this, please do some research on how much money inference prints? its not wildly spoken about because people don’t yap about printing money.
“Oh but it’ll all come crashing down” - say you don’t work at a lab or know anyone at a lab.
My greater annoyance is HN becoming annoying political in the past few years. Sure, everything is political now but the moderation siloed these posts better. Maybe the user base is too old now. Fresh blood went to Discord or X.
If AI companies were to go bankrupt, it’s possible they’d be nationalized. I don’t see any other feasible option besides that or a bailout (or one but it’s effectively the other, e.g. “nationalized” but the employees including leaders are the same, or bailed out but already subservient to the military). I think the best case is for the compute to be made effectively public: giving every citizen free access, since we’re paying taxes that prevent their bankruptcy.
Check out this excellent article for more background: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/10/bubble-bailout-tru...
However, looking at the other side, I think what this might do is add some barrier or consideration when a bailout is considered.
The last time we did large scale bailouts (TARP[0], in 2008), It was rushed through and ratified in around two weeks following the sudden collapse of Lehman.
Any measures we can take to ensure that we don't fall into a situation where there is only one choice is sensible.
[0] https://home.treasury.gov/data/troubled-assets-relief-progra...
It’s a resolution. Pure puffery. A serious effort would have involved floating a bill.
Even during GFC, equity investors were wiped out. Same with Silicon Valley Bank.
This trope that investors are bailed out is doing more harm than good. Because intervention and backstops actually helps the economy from not going into a death spiral that destroys the poor and middle class
After midterms, they would still need significant public support to pressure against a veto regardless. So what you call puffery, is probably a very necessary first step.
Nope. Bills that become laws don’t tend to be preceded by non-binding resolutions. They are preceded by draft bills.
Or even proposing new laws by floating bills when they don't already have the guaranteed votes - or even know they'll never pass. I'm sure many here would also want to dismiss that as "pure puffery".
Really why do we let anyone but the current majority party say anything at all? It's just puffery.
Amen. Prepare for a disaster tomorrow by planning for it today. The specific implementation might be mediocre, but we should be pushing for more, especially vis-a-vis pushing for anyone in the company who knowingly was involved in fraud to go to prison.
Accounting for inflation and opportunity costs?
Also, we did a long-term fix for a 2007-style crisis already with Dodd-Frank. Government can now invoke "orderly liquidation" before a crisis happens. When commercial banks failed a few years ago, FDIC solved it in a matter of weeks with no outlay of money from Congress.
The rest of the economy is being asphyxiated due to lack of investment, and wouldn't be so anemic without the AI bubble.
1. https://www.wsj.com/economy/consumers/us-economy-strength-ri...
The number of broader funds that are heavily invested in these companies as well, plus the unprecedented municipal, state, and national investment in data centers and the like, make this far more rippling than you think.
Are the banks currently being stress tested? Is the testing honest?
Is anyone evaluating the potential impact to the other funds? Or are people being sidelined if they're not on the bandwagon, given that the non-AI market is in overall decline? Are pensioners _not_ going to receive help if an AI collapse tanks their retirement, despite them having basically zero control over the investment?
There is at least $1.5T in "dark" investment, in the SPVs building the actual data centres, off the major tech companies' books.
Enough that "investors" could mean almost anyone is exposed, internationally, through any number of funds and schemes.
Moral hazard as a concept (as something to be avoided) basically doesn’t exist anymore. Or rather, the whole market now embodies moral hazard. This seems bad.
Feel free to run for office on a "periodic culling" platform, though
Financial failure of an AI lab wouldn’t make that AI disappear.
If people depend on them (aka demand) the IP of the labs would be valuable, someone would purchase it in bankruptcy, and they would continue serving the model.
There is basically no comparison to the credit market collapse, even though all of the simplified comparisons try to draw a straight line between the two.
The real concern is different: The theory is that if the frontier labs start collapsing, they will argue that their failure is equivalent to the US losing AI supremacy, which is equivalent to losing the future if you believe AI is winner take all. The argument is that they’ll be financially reckless and then ask the government to backstop losses if it falters, both to retain their lead and to protect the overall economy.
The other part that of this is the increasingly widespread belief that AI is a total bubble without demand and it’s all going to collapse because there’s no profits to be found at all because it’s all financial theater. That argument is harder to make if you’ve looked at the actual unit economics of these companies (hint: Anthropic isn’t subsidizing inference like so many believed). AI is not going away and the demand for compute will only increase. The question is how accurately these scale ups track it and if they’re going to dip below the insolvency threshold from getting it wrong.
But if the companies blow up, the technology doesn’t go away. The model weights aren’t deleted. The ML engineers don’t retire. Companies get restructured, IP assets can be sold to new operators, and engineers move to new companies with new business models.
Maybe I'm just jaded but this just seems to be how the world works.
What would happen if the bubble burst tomorrow, with the clowns sitting at the helm of the USA?
I'm not sure your president would choose to save the American people rather than bailing our his CEO friends. There's money to be made as backshish if Trump bails Altman and Altman gives back a %age of this to his helper..
If you're lucky enough to be in this field and you're not managing your finances, that's not the governments problem to fix
This is exactly the line of thought that turned the Wall Street crash into the Great Depression, which we learned from and did not repeat in 2008. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Niki Parmar: am I a joke to you?
We must let them fail, no matter how many jobs it costs, no matter what the harm looks like in the short term, to send a clear and unambiguous signal to others that the government won’t backstop your shitty bets.
For the rest of us, that also means the S&P 500 free lunch* will soon be over.
American zillennials are going to get their free healthcare and free higher education, and they'll do it in a way that makes France look like a well-managed, investor-friendly country.
*Unless you own real estate in Copenhagen, one of the biggest sources of wealth creation in Denmark since 2015 has been our pension funds and their exposure to US stocks.
What’s your proposed mechanism here? Maybe data center buildout risk, but that seems mostly local policy?
1. The AI race has been essentially been a nation cold war arms race with China - so that would be the government backing the race. 2. The previous Biden administration was going to put a lock down on all things AI (remember: The 10²⁶ FLOPs Rule) 3. The populist anger about data centers will have a strong political arm to investigate and shut down efforts (at all levels). 4. Energy buildout will be intentionally slow down through various mechanisms controlled by dems. 5. Financial regulatory bodies will have strong teeth.
FWIW this isn't meant to be political but more a state of play looking at the real factors of Dems getting power and the impact to the market place.
Why? Democrats still care about electrification because of climate change. If anything I think energy buildout will accelerate.
The rest is balanced on a knife edge.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_Silicon_Valley_Ban...
I know that many people in those spaces are investing in AI precisely because they believe that should their AI investments fail, the industry will be bailed out by the federal government. Getting AI to be seen favorably by the administration and putting AI within civic government systems and inside defense contracts is a pretty big push towards that outcome.
But this is really socialism. It was not a bailout of banks, it was socialism for wealthy. Did the people lose their houses? Yes! What about the people who made obscene profits from lending money to people when they should not? Did they lose their money? No. We - the taxpayers, the ex home owners - gave them money.
What about socialism for the egg industry? When the centralized chicken stocks got a disease, we people who were paying usurious prices for food, also provided payments to ensure the wealthy owners did not suffer.
Socialism for the wealthy === good, socialism for the poor === evil. Hmmm. Oh no that can't be so lets call socialism for the rich "a bailout".
Since we force people on food stamps to work now, maybe with this "bailout" we should force those people to work minimum wage jobs?
Besides, business were net tax payers. It's perfectly reasonable we lend them back some of their own money so they can continue to pay taxes next year.
You end on petty vitriol, tsk tsk.