Ask HN: Something you’ve done your whole life that you realized is wrong?

691 points by coreyhn ↗ HN
I was helping my son learn to write and realized I’ve been holding the pencil wrong when I write. When I changed my grip to match how my son was learning, it was more comfortable. What have you learned that is different and better than something you’ve always done?

1,869 comments

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You aren't supposed to rinse your mouth with water after brushing your teeth. You're supposed to spit excess, but leave the toothpaste on to absorb.
Or rinse and use mouthwash with fluoride and leave that. Brush from top to bottom, not side to side. "Scrape" your tooth when flossing. Seems like way too many never learn these basics.
> "Scrape" your tooth when flossing. Seems like way too many never learn these basics.

Nothing proves flossing is beneficial actually

A nothing proves it isn’t, so you might as well spend the extra minute or two and do it.
That's quite a weird answer.

All else being equal, it's obviously better not to spend an extra minute or two doing something useless.

If you think it is not actually equal, and that scraping is indeed better, well say so and qualify your statement. You can even say that it's recommended by dentists, it's an authority argument but it surely is better than nothing.

I do think it’s worth the time. My teeth feel significantly cleaner after doing so and it removes stuff my brush can’t reach no matter how much I try.

I’m not sure why I have have to defend flossing of all things. I’m not trained in that field, neither are you, we should listen to the people who are and guess what? They almost all recommend flossing.

That argument was accepted with COVID vaccines, so why not now?

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> That argument was accepted with COVID vaccines, so why not now?

Far from universally and even in the pockets where it was, at least some percentage did it just to be able to go back to doing normal things which were gated by government rules.

Don’t do anything blindly. They won’t be the ones bearing the cost if and when something goes wrong.

You said

>A nothing proves it isn’t, so you might as well

That's completely different from

>I’m not trained in that field, neither are you, we should listen to the people who are and guess what? They almost all recommend flossing.

Smell the floss ;)
What is there to prove...?

If the goal of toothbrushing and flossing is to remove bacteria and food debris from your mouth, hopefully an uncontroversial premise, it's pretty obvious how flossing helps.

Just flossing and carefully watching the action of the floss and the plaque is sufficient to demonstrate the benefit.

Sometimes your common sense is more than enough to make sense of the world, no ivy league double blind study required.

It's a question of return on investment. If spending the extra minute everyday saves a probable $10k over your lifetime due to dental work, then yes it might be worth it. But if it saves a probable $10, it might not.
Not flossing makes your dental visits longer as they scrape off all the plaque from in-between your teeth. Just avoiding that discomfort is worth it IMO.

I suppose you could skip going to the dentist altogether but that comes with risks of larger issues down the road.

The cost of the dental work pales in comparison to the value of keeping your natural teeth, which is going to be much much much higher than $10k over your lifetime.
I think i read somewhere that the reason for this is that virtually all dentists agree you should clean your entire tooth, and the consensus is so universal that no one bothers to do controlled trials. I would feel bad not cleaning half of the surface area at all anyways.
Meta-analyses of RCTs do indicate flossing prevents gum disease, though, which is important. See another poster in this thread who suffered bone loss as a result of gum disease.

You're right though that there's no established effect on cavities.

Having said that, it's difficult to get people to actually floss, so there's a certain amount of uncertainty about the results of those RCTs, and whether participants were doing what they were supposed to be doing.

Don't use mouthwash straight after brushing. Seems like way too many never learn these basics.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-teeth-and-gums/how-to-k...

> It doesn't matter whether you use an electric or manual toothbrush. They're both equally good

That's just so wrong already. Regular toothbrushes are absolute trash compared to sonics, every dentist will tell you that.

> don't use mouthwash (even a fluoride one) straight after brushing your teeth or it'll wash away the concentrated fluoride in the toothpaste left on your teeth

So in a nutshell, don't use it because it'll wash away the flouride... that you've already rinsed out. Yeah not much of a minus there.

I've heard that studies found that electric vs manual can both do a sufficient clean. But the issue is, most people don't know the proper technique to use a manual brush effectively. So even if you do a half ass job with an electric brush, it's still better then what most would do with a manual.
> Brush from top to bottom, not side to side.

Gonna need a cite on that. Pretty sure the recommendation is to hold the brush at 45 degrees and use circular movements.

Interesting. My dentist always told me the direction must be from the root to the top otherwise you would just push the remains of food into the gums - and it seems like a logical advice to follow.
I blame movies. Nearly every brushing scene has the actor scrub brushing like it's nobodies business.
Well now I learned something new and very useful. Applying to kids tonight.
May I swallow? I find that my breath and tonsils feel fresher.
It's definitely not recommended, at least for fluoride toothpaste, it usually is written on the box and the tube
Wouldn't that result in the ingestion of a large quantity of toothpaste over the course of a lifetime? I can't imagine that would be good for you.
It's just diatoms. We all eat all sorts of things and it's fine for the most part. As long as you aren't eating actual poison you are fine.
Fluoride is toxic.

> We all eat all sorts of things and it's fine That's like saying you can lose some IQ every so often because you'll live so what

Safe: 10 mg/day

Toothpaste: 4mg / teaspoon

So you'd need to swallow several whole teaspoons to pass std. safety levels

cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride

Safe, means it won't have any detrimental effects, or it won't be debilitating, or it won't kill me?
That's a good question. Having not seen reliable research on that point, my approach is as follows: I use a small amount of toothpaste (say, 1/4th of what you see in ads or less) and I spit excess. In this way in the worst scenario I digest at least one order of magnitude less fluoride than the threshold of the safe amount.
Now I am fairly certain I probably use more than that even, but with the complexity of biological systems it might be as well saying that being shot with 10 bullets is somehow better than with 1000 bullets.

I just point that out, because I am acutely aware how good people are at convincing themselves with statistics of anything, really.

You are actually being hit a lot more by cosmic rays that are not deflected by our atmosphere. We survive this fine. This is probably a more acurate simile than the bullet one, based on the amounts involved.
lol. You're comparing toothpaste to getting shot 10 times?

Yes that is better than getting shot 1000 times, not better than getting shot only once, in case you are wondering.

Complexity != Fragile

The lethal dose is 5-10 grams, the recommended safe dose is 10 milligrams maximum. Between those points you'll experience some pain and stomach discomfort. Regularly going over the safe dose may cause some organ issues.

Basically, even if you swallow all your toothpaste you're unlikely to have problems unless your diet is already rich in fluoride, and spitting but not rinsing is fine.

Toothpaste contains a fluoride molecule, not direct fluoride. Not the same thing at all.
"The dose makes the poison." Even ionizing radiation (sunlight) in small doses over a whole lifetime isn't really harmful. Especially given that it's how we naturally make vitamin D.
I'm glad to be wrong on that one
This is one where I KNOW I do it wrong. The dentist prescribed me a hardcore sensitivity toothpaste for an issue, but emphasized that it will only work if I don't rinse after brushing. But... I just can't not rinse after 30 years of muscle memory. I generally remember this right as I'm rinsing. The sensitivity toothpaste has not worked, of course.
I’m in the same boat as you — sensitive teeth, but can’t not rinse. What works for me is to treat the toothpaste as a “post-rinse medicated rub”: squeeze out a bit more, and rub it over the most sensitive teeth.
Maybe mark the cup with something that will remind you. Clip a paperclip over the edge? Store it upside down? (If you're using a cup.) This could help interrupt the habit.
What I find helps is to rinse my tongue (run the bristles over my tongue under water, but just the tongue). Then at least most of the toothpaste residue sticks to my mouth and teeth but not the taste.
If you remember it as you're rinsing, brush your teeth lightly again to spread the tooth paste on the teeth. Once you've had yo do it again a few times, you'll pick up the habit of not rinsing.
Ahh, mine is an interesting counterpoint to this!

I had canker sores for my entire life, well into my late 20s. I tried everything: changing toothpastes (more on this in a second), changing brushes, using mouthwash, being told my mouth was "dirty" and I need to brush more, etc.

Turns out (at least for me) the sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) used as a foaming agent in (almost) every single toothpaste causes canker sores. I found "canker sore toothpaste" that lacks the SLS, for $7 a tube. I used it for couple of years and it worked!

If you read up on SLS, this is not super-surprising. It's a known skin irritant, and is known to cause more irritation when left on the skin for more than a couple of minutes. Canker sores are an autoimmune issue, so my theory is the irritation triggers an immune response, leading to the sore.

And then I discovered if I rinse thoroughly (twice) after brushing, even with normal toothpaste, I just don't get canker sores anymore! Not sure if it's universal, but canker sores suck so much, I hope this helps someone suffering like I was.

Interesting. I suffered from canker sores into my early 20's. Finally talked to a Dr, who sent me to a nutritionist. The problem for me was orange juice. I've never been sure what exactly it is in OJ that caused the problem. But I do know that if I drink a glass of processed orange juice today, I'll wake up with a bad canker sore in 2-3 days. If I drink a glass of fresh orange juice for a few days in a row, I'll get the canker sores.
I've also suffered from canker sores. Vitamin B (B-12 is the important one, I think) is a wonder cure. At the first sign of mouth soreness I start taking daily doses of Vitamin B and it cures the sores right up.
For me and my 2x monthly canker sores, it turned out I was severely iron deficient and had anemia. Since taking supplements, I haven't had a canker sore in 7 months.
Triamcinolone acetonide oral paste works well for canker sores.

Much better than any over the counter stuff.

In the rare instance I get a canker sore I now immediately apply some raw bee propolis (can find it on Amazon). Put a few drops on a q-tip and directly apply to canker sore. It burns like hell, but what happens is it creates a "seal" around the sore that lasts for a couple days (unlike the OTC crap) which not only protects you as you eat from burning pain, but also speeds healing. Since using propolis, my sores will heal in 2-3 days vs. 7-10 on their own. It's incredible.
Yes, I had the same experience. Went 40 years brushing, then rinsing, then I read advice similar to the original commenter's and stopped rinsing. Shortly after that, I wondered why I suddenly had all these weird sores in my mouth, and finally connected the dots. They went away immediately after I started rinsing again.
I thought colorblindness tests were designed to be tricky and subtle, so I always passed them through very close inspection. I'm just colorblind.
Have you tried using those colorblind glasses? Maybe something like Enchroma [0] or dichroic filters?

[0] https://enchroma.com/

I can't speak for OP's colorblindness, but for me those do basically nothing.
I bought some for my son for his birthday. His response was "meh" so I returned them and he got some cash.
Yeah, they only help a specific subset of color blindness. But for the ones they do help it's significant.
I'm highly red/green colorblind. I got a pair of these as a gift and they allow me to differentiate between reds/greens much more clearly and to see red where I wouldn't notice without them. I know for some people they don't do much, but it makes hikes and such much more colorful for me!
Ooo! Good tip. Hiking with them.
This company has so shady marketing. They don't work as advertised.

The way they hire actors to play out wholesome videos and upload them to YouTube as if it's organic content, with massive fake users to comment and push up false claims and down vote brigade all negative comments should tell you all you need about this shady company.

You should try a reverse colorblindness test like this: https://www.colorlitelens.com/color-blindness-test/secret-of...
That is one of the worst designed things I have ever seen. The instructions barely made sense at all for the first test, and for subsequent ones where you can enter 2 responses there is absolutely no indication what should be going on.
Wow, I was expecting this to be hyperbole but you’re right. No clue what you’re actually supposed to do on this site.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I did. But I went from question 1, to question 2, to question 2, then I saw a button saying "FINISH", so I clicked it and I got 12 answers wrong.
They're a site that sells goggles for the colorblind, so either way I wouldn't trust their colorblind diagnoses.
I just took a test. I cannot see shit in color. Haha. Fuk! Do those glasses actually help reverse this? I can clearly see RGB. But some hues look the same. Are people born color blind or is this wear and tear kind of situation?
Ignore this test. It doesn’t work on a computer. You need to take in in-person using specially-printed images.
Maybe they don't work to rule it out, but I am colourblind (as diagnosed in-person with specially-printed images by a professional optician) and when people have pointed me at these images on computers (only slightly less annoying than 'can you see this?', 'what colour is my shirt?') they've always 'worked' as expected.
This particular website doesn’t work on a computer. I’ve seen others that work well enough. This website is just broken. I believe this version is intended to only be legible if you’re colorblind, but good luck actually using it.
I’ve been in a lot of ophthalmologist’s offices for a variety of issues, and even had surgery as a child to correct one of them. The one issue I do not have is color blindness—and I’ve been given a lot of these tests.

This website doesn’t work on my iPhone’s screen. It’s impossible to discern most of the numbers, and the UI doesn’t instill confidence. Are they just using this garbage to hock their glasses to people who don’t need them?

This website is thoroughly broken, and nobody should even use it as a suggestion that they are or aren’t colorblind.

I think the numbers are visibles only if you have color blindness
That's right. maushu even said it's a reverse color blindness test. If you can't see any of the numbers, then you likely do not experience red-green color blindness.
It's a completely broken test. The "correct" answers at the end indicate two-digits numbers for "plates" when only a single-digit answer was possible.

I, without color-blindness, can't make out any numbers. A coworker who is red/green colorblind also could not make out any numbers. Then the results, as I said, show that the whole process was broken from the start.

I actually laughed at this one, you are a real hacker.
I'm also colorblind and this cracked me up. I sent your comment to my friends who don't believe I can't see the numbers in those tests.
Had a friend who was absolutely convinced we were all pranking him when doing a colorblindness test. We were all doing the test because about 15 minutes prior, someone had asked him to grab a pink object off of a shelf and he came back with a green one in total seriousness
My mom had me tested in kindergarten when we were learning the colors and I couldn't get pink right. I kept confusing it with white.
My kindergarten teacher basically beat me with their voice for not being able to get my colors correct. Two years later during art class, I was sent to the school nurse to find out I was colorblind. However, they never told anyone, not even my parents.

It really should be a part of general screening upon admittance to primary school. Then again, this was 30 years ago, so maybe it is now.

In grade 6, an adult came in to class to do a colourblind test on everyone.

Projection screen was lowered, lights turned off, and a series of multi-coloured dots on many slides were displayed one after another on the screen.

In the dots, there were numbers / letters in colours different from the general background colour of the slide.

Adult: "Can everyone see the number?"

Almost everyone: "YESSSSSS."

One boy: "Ummm - there's no number on the screen!"

Pregnant pause.

One boy: "Oh yeah. Now I see it."

Almost everyone turns their head to look at that one boy.

Test continues.

Afterwards, the one boy was selected for further consultation...

What cracked me up is when tons of color blind people on Reddit discovered peanut butter is not green.
Lol, yeah, sometimes an analytical mind works against you by taking things too seriously.

This is when it would've been good to ask someone about it.

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You-buntu vs oo-buntu,

Something coworkers from years ago still like to give me grief about.

Wait, which one is right?
The one without the "y":

> Ubuntu is an ancient African word meaning ‘humanity to others’. It can also be interpreted as ‘I am what I am because of who we all are’. The Ubuntu operating system brings the spirit of Ubuntu to the world of computing. And one last extra question for the road…

> How do you pronounce Ubuntu? Many people don’t get it right the first time, but it’s pronounced: oǒ’boǒntoō.

> There’s no ‘y’ at the beginning!

https://ubuntu.com/blog/top-10-questions-about-ubuntu

Just a little correction. The word ubuntu is not ancient. It's still in use today and more than 100 million people subscribed to the spirit of ubuntu. What qualifies me to correct an FAQ of a conglomerate? I belong to a group of people who are classified as Bantu and own the word.

While Mark Shuttleworth is originally from South Africa, where bantu people originates, he was not classified as a Bantu by apartheid government. Which is strange because the word Bantu means people. During our dark days of apartheid, as in less than 30 years ago, areas designated for black only were called bantustans.

umuntu, also(muthu, motho) = person bantu, vhathu, batho, etc = people ubuntu, vhuthu, botho, etc = normal behaviour of a human being.

We are still called bantu(people) and ubuntu is our way of life. Ok. Theoretically.

I don't read 'ancient' as necessarily meaning archaic or obsolete, you can both be correct.
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I've heard the third option of "oo-BOO-ntu" many times.
Actually, all three vowels are “oo” sounds.
Several years ago, I was reading the NYRB selections from Thoreau's journals. Somewhere well into it, he wrote of talking with a friend, and the two deciding that perhaps they were tying their shoes wrong. They switched the order of the first cross-over, and found the results much better.

I tried it (age 50-something), and discovered that I no longer needed to double-knot my shoes.

Do you have to tie a double knot to keep your shoes from coming untied? Do your loops end up pointing down at your toes and up your leg instead of pointing to the sides of your shoe? Do you shoes come untied all the time? You are probably tying a granny knot instead of a square knot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFcV7zuUDA
There was a thing about tying shoelaces a few years back, for example this from the BBC [1]. Apparently I was doing it wrong but anyway I prefer the extra back exercise I get from bending down to retie.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT2XiPgiZK8

A common one is the tying of one's shoelaces. It's pretty common to tie the knot in an unbalanced way. https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknot.htm
Yes and then spend a lifetime with annoying workarounds. A friend has been double knotting forever :(
Yep. I did this for about 30 years before I learned the correct way (from that site, no less).
Worthy of the best TED talk ever: https://youtu.be/zAFcV7zuUDA
It's quite hard to maintain tension with the Ian knot and it also doesn't speed up the initial twist. It's a good party trick though!
You can just leave the initial twist on the shoestring
What does that even mean? lol. The Ted way still works and the shoe laces have not come undone in 10 years since I've been using it, so why would I change method?
I came here to post this one. For about 25 years of my life I was tying my knots the wrong way and I just thought shoelaces just had to be re-tied periodically. I don't remember where I learnt to just tie the loop the other way. Now strain on the laces just serves to tighten the knot.
I was also about to post that, and note that my wife who is japanese told me that in japan the correct way to tie shoelaces was taught at school, and she laughed for about a week when I told her that at 40 I didn't know that.
Learning the Ian knot was life changing for me -- not only did it automatically correct the bow being in the correct orientation, but it doesn't take an inconvenient amount of time to tie my shoes anymore. Esp. when walking with a group, if a lace comes untied I can fix it without losing more than a couple paces.
It wasn't until I had to teach knots to Cub Scouts that I realized my life was a lie, at least when it came to tying shoes. I was the object of ridicule for 50 years but now I walk with confidence, and always-tied shoes.
this was my answer as well
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This was so confusing to me. Don’t American kids learn how to tie their shoes properly? Here in Germany, I was taught that in kindergarten.
The knots being discussed are similar with one small difference: the direction you wrap the shoelace during one step.

The "incorrect" knot still works relatively well and looks almost the same as the "correct" knot. The "incorrect" one also requires significantly less finger dexterity which is why children tend to prefer it.

Yeah, that is what we learned, not to make the shoddy knot.
I hold spoons kind of "wrong"; basically put your palm facing down, make a fist, and then support the spoon with your thumb. That's how I eat soup when I'm not actively thinking about it. I just control the angle of the spook with my thumb.

It's objectively not as flexible as the traditional spoon grip but I can't seem to shake the habit. Gets me strange looks sometimes

Flatware grips and even orientations (tines up vs. tines down on a fork) can vary with culture and is also a bit tied up with class. What you're doing may be "correct" somewhere :-)
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I used to assume the religious people were missing something and missing out on the latest and greatest.

Now I am seeing that often it's us the non-religious that have lost something of value and are trying to replace it with things that don't work as well.

I was raised in a Christian community and went to a private Christian school all the way until graduation, though really stopped believing all the stuff by 11th grade or so. And it's wild the parallels I see between the modern political climate and religion. It really seems that in the process of masses leaving the church, they've gone on to adopt the exact same behaviors but worshipping other things - government, advertising, virtue signalling to show you're the most "on board" with the movement. They've wrapped around to enforcing censorship of art and being against free speech just like the Christians did when they were in charge.

But I recall most people in the actual church at least had some form of a community, and many seemed happy and selfless. This modern church that pretends it isn't a church only breeds toxicity, selfishness, vitriol, and depression. Everyone is holding each other hostage, knowing that if anyone steps out of line and questions the status quo they'll be burned in the village square as an example to whoever might do it next. The actual church community I was in was more accepting in almost all regards than this new system.

I honestly wish a lot of these people would just find a normal religion. It's way easier to get along with normal religious people than the types people being getting hooked on these new systems of thought.

Meet the new Puritans, same as the old Puritans.
> It really seems that in the process of masses leaving the church, they've gone on to adopt the exact same behaviors but worshipping other things - government, advertising, virtue signalling to show you're the most "on board" with the movement.

I think that's because these things aren't from church, they're part of human nature.

One of the churches I went to as a child was toxic, the other wasn't. The religious community isn't immune to human nature.

50-60 years ago the country was much more religious and you’d encounter people saying they’d never let their child marry a democrat and vice-versa according to my grandparents. To them, things are mostly better and what we have is the appearance of greater division.

> 50-60 years ago the country was much more religious

I think religion adapts and changes; religion was more mainstream, less toxic, and uniform than it is now. The median person is probably less religious (in terms of sticking to an established religion) but the upper 1/3 of the spectrum is more religious, in that they believe more extreme things, with less evidence, and are less likely to compromise. The past 40 years of the evangelical movement, which has been coopted by the conservative movement, has been extremely polarizing.

I'm not sure that it was any less toxic, just that the background level of toxicity has decreased.

My mother clearly remembers being called out in front of her church for the unforgivable sin of attending a school dance, and that was in the mid-60s. Don't forget why the Southern Baptists broke away from the Baptists.

just grinning a little at the phrase "breaking away from the baptists" : really, what's to break away from? It's a denomination primarily defined by everyone being a schismatic from everyone else.
> 50-60 years ago the country was much more religious

and 100 years ago, much less! at most 40% of the US regularly attended church services in the 1910s.

Could some of that be due to the shift from a rural to urban society? If getting to church requires taking a horse and buggy 10 miles down dirt roads, then most weeks you might have a DIY religious observance at home on the farm instead. If you live in a town where you can walk to a neighborhood church, you're probably more likely to make it a regular habit.
It's kind of the other way around: what was so weird and new about the 50s that performative church attendance was so high?

And i can think of ~three answers: post-war trauma, a population bubble, and a percieved need in the white middle class for social discrimination and "order" against internally, integration and externally, "the godless commies". (see: HUAC, adding "under god" to the pledge)

I figure that the 50s were an anomaly, not the other way around.

I think the 1910 figure might have more to do with practical concerns. When you have no car and live on a farm far from anything, as a huge number of people did back then, you can't regularly get to church even if you wanted to. So I wouldn't interpret that number as a clean measure of religiosity.
Go for a drive in new england sometime and count the churches in the sticks. There's usually 2-5 congregations per tiny little hamlet, most of them built in the mid-1800s or earlier; most of them now defunct or dying. Sometimes you get 3 schisms of congregationalists in a row!

"build a church and school within reasonable walking distance" was rule 1 of new towns for a good long while.

Spot on! Science that can’t be questioned isn’t science it’s dogma. The whole Dr. Fauci worship culture and “trust the science” that emerged during the pandemic felt way too much like a religious cult.
Tribalism is at the core of our species i think. With metaphysical "explanations" or scientific ones.
> It really seems that in the process of masses leaving the church, they've gone on to adopt the exact same behaviors but worshipping other things - government, advertising, virtue signalling to show you're the most "on board" with the movement.

People serve these idols, and many others, to give meaning to their lives, to justify their existence. They are afraid of death--that is, not only physical death but everything which does or seems to militate against life: alienation, lack of identity, frustration, pain, meaninglessness. And so they grasp, as it were, after aspects of life which seem to promise freedom from some form of death, and serve them as idols. But what they are really serving is death, for the fear of death is the power behind all idolatry. And yet, as we have seen, idolatry can only lead to death in one form or another, to violence and dehumanization and also to the degradation or destruction of what is idolized.

It is a distinctive mark of the biblical mind to discern that human history is a drama of death and resurrection and not, as religionists of all sorts suppose, a simplistic conflict of evil vs. good in an abstract sense. For what is "good" is, basically, what is good for man and creation--in other words, what is life-giving, life-preserving, life-perfecting. God, the Living One, is the author of life, he is on the side of life...That which is truly evil is that which thwarts life. And sin is any denial or rejection of the gift of life; an offense against God who bestows the gift. But the wages of sin is death, not by some arbitrary decree on God's part, but because sin by its nature is possessed of death, anti-life, death-dealing, both to the sinner and in the various kinds of death it occasions in the world.

You're probably in the right head space to appreciate "Impostors of God: Inquiries Into Favorite Idols" by William Stringfellow (1969).

Cryptonomicon is another good one, though far less prophetic/scholarly:

To translate it into UNIX system administration terms (Randy's fundamental metaphor for just about everything), the post modern, politically correct atheists were like people who had suddenly found themselves in charge of a big and unfathomably complex computer system (viz, society) with no documentation or instructions of any kind, and so whose only way to keep the thing running was to invent and enforce certain rules with a kind of neo-Puritanical rigor, because they were at a loss to deal with any deviations from what they saw as the norm. Whereas people who were wired into a church were like UNIX system administrators who, while they might not understand everything, at least had some documentation, some FAQs and How tos and README files, providing some guidance on what to do when things got out of whack. They were, in other words, capable of displaying adaptability.

A certain amount of this conformism is human nature .. but a lot of people, especially anyone queer, was rejected by the church rather than left. I suspect you're not seeing this because you're not in the reject category.

The failure mode of churches (and, yes, some of the more optimistic commune arrangements) is toxic positivity: everything is great, and anyone who doesn't agree is going to be dealt with. This makes it extremely difficult to report when someone has been raping adults or children.

This has way more to do with the kind of person who leans areligious in a religious society than being areligious itself. In a religious society, most normal people will be religious

In more atheistic countries, the religious people are the ones that are harder to get along with, as normal people are a lot less religious.

No only are people worshiping dishonest politicians, but since radical people don't abandon their ideas, the churches have gone through a selection process where all but the most radical of them weakened.

We have lost something very important on the conversion of our society to laic values. We have gained very important things too, so I don't think the best correction is to reverse anything, but we have some work to do on those things that we lost.

I think the cat's out of the bag - there's no sky friend looking out for us. There's no going back now for most people.

This has been replaced by ersatz religions, but I think we should start explicitly worshipping the concept of civilization and progress. From a certain point of view, civilization is a cybernetic organism that encompasses all of us and gives us all sorts of neat things.

> replaced by ersatz religions

There's no doubt about that. Humans have a very strong religious bent that is bred into us by evolution selecting for motivated, tenacious people who fight to survive but whose brains can't stop patterning-matching, perceiving threats and agency behind things, and performing rituals. Not to mention, organizing around common beliefs. Without various sky-friend myths, we organize around other myths. Thankfully we have good science now, but that's unfortunately often less sexy (and more difficult) than pseudo-science and fads.

> I think we should start explicitly worshipping the concept of civilization and progress

Isn't this exactly what the French Revolution's first wave, the Nazis, the Soviets, and the Maoists all did? Or are you suggesting something more explicitly Hegelian like the religion of "The sign of the T" from Brave New World (though that religion was focused on production not transformation)?

"Progress means getting nearer to the place you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turn, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man."

~ C. S. Lewis

> there's no sky friend looking out for us

That's much too simplistic and isn't going to convince anyone of the point you're trying to make.

> his has been replaced by ersatz religions, but I think we should start explicitly worshipping the concept of civilization and progress

We've done this multiple times before and always with disastrous or at least dissipative results. The technical term for this is "cult" and more specifically "idolatry". There are very good reasons why this has generally been proscribed by monotheistic religions.

> civilization is a cybernetic organism that encompasses all of us

Saying civilization is cybernetic in that it consists of feedback loops that keep it in a stable condition is stretching it. Perhaps a nation could be cybernetic since it contains a variety of channels through which this information can flow in both directions but a civilization as a supranational system has some very tight bottlenecks that would impede such functioning.

> gives us all sorts of neat things

It does not. People do that and the things are not so much given as they are bargained for whether with money or by signing on to a social contract or adopting cultural values.

You might like Jordan Peterson's podcast. He talks often about the human need to believe in something outside of ourselves. This need can be satisfied by many things, not all of them good.

Dennis Prager is pretty good on this front too. But, he thinks that religion is a necessity for a happy life.

I don't follow any faith. There are too many religions for any one to be "correct". But I do see religion as a good moral guide, particularly in times of hardship.

I personally wouldn’t recommend listening to either of these guys.

Peterson at least attempts to offer balanced. Prager is a religious quack.

Just because somebody believes in a religion doesn't mean they have nothing to teach you. As far as I can tell through the internet, both are good honest people.

I don't think that it is an overstatement to say that Peterson alone has helped millions improve their lives through his books, talks, and interviews.

Prager is no different from the Rush Limbaughs of the world. He’s another divisive conservative talking head fomenting the culture wars they need to stay relevant.

Whether or not the changes many have made in their lives as a result of Peterson’s work are improvements is also debatable.

I suppose the hundreds of people that have made a point to personally thank him for showing them a way to improve their lives are just lieing about his influence. /s
Is personal thanks a useful metric in this case?

People give thanks to prosperity preachers for their spiritual guidance even as they sit hungry watching the preacher drive away in his Bentley purchased with the money they tithed.

Genuinely, you come across as someone who does not interact with non believers and have attitude about them shaped primary by hostile media. Starting from assumption that most people who left Christianity joined "movement" which seems to be mostly euphemism for culture war you are fully into.
What are "normal religious people"? I think religion is really being used as a stand-in for Christian here.
There are a lot of things religion provides that modern society is really dismal at providing: community, care, socialization across class/career lines, relationships with people who live near you, a support system for sick/hurting people, and other benefits

The thing is, none of those are innately tied to religion. We've abandoned churches for what I feel are largely good reasons, but we haven't found something else to fill that void in community and care. We're more insular, more online, less of us know our neighbours or really have a stake in our community welfare in the same way. I don't think the solution is going back to religion.

Thanks for the response - yes and no.

I think you are right in that in theory you could have "all that stuff" sans religion. And in fact I think Atheism in the boomer generation benefited from cultural inertia - like, you could say you don't belong to a religion but still marry, have kids, participate in community etc simply because that's what everyone else (by the virtue of their religion) was doing around you.

But today it seems like critical mass is elsewhere, and it seems like the religious folks now have a huge advantage over everyone else in terms of marriage, family formation, community and maybe even mental health. So while in theory it's possible, it seems like in practice all of those things declined among the non-religious, just perhaps with a lag of a generation.

The reason I think it might make sense to reengage with religion is the crux of this question: does life have a point, a meaning, etc. Not even "what" the point is but does it exist at all. The idea that the universe is a total accident and nothing is relevant takes you in a certain direction in life and society, while the idea of "there's meaning and purpose" in another.

I think it's hard to anchor your life in the value of meaning without logically accepting a creator of that meaning.

So I think there's an element of faith - either you chose to believe there's meaning or you chose to believe there isn't, everything else is implied by that choice of belief.

I think you’re right. Religion isn’t the only answer, it’s just the answer that people are most familiar with.
I was born into a Muslim family and have remained a Muslim my entire life, but I have had ups and downs in how observant I have been. I’ve had periods where I was less enthusiastic than my parents. On the flip side, I’ve flirted with extremism a few times and even started alienating my immediate family members. Now, over 40 years old, I feel like I’ve found the right balance: a strong relationship with God, without being seen as obnoxious or dangerous. It feels amazing both personally and when subtly sharing what I believe is the most important factor in having a happy, fulfilling life.

Interestingly, Muslims believe most messengers began their missions at or around 40, so maybe everything before is “formative years”. The one known exception is Jesus Christ, whom we believe was raised to God at 33 but still has a huge role to play in shaping the world.

Not all non-religious people suffer from some kind of spiritual or ethical deficiency.

I get saddened when religious storytelling fills people with fairy tales and arbitrary hate and makes them incapable of seeing things about existence that are truly beautiful.

What are examples of things about existence that are truly beautiful?
Not the person who you replied to, however:

I'm not sure exactly how to explain this, but the seemingly infinite level of "detail" or "texture" or "complexity" to our universe. No matter how small or large you go, there's always some patterns, some structures, some details to be seen. There's always some other perspective or way of grouping and organizing to reveal new information. The complexity is infinitely deep, wide and layered. Some of that I think is inherent, and some of it is what we create as living entities - which is a great privilege we enjoy.

Take a white painted wall made of drywall. Relatively uninteresting most of the time. But the potential amount of information about it is almost infinite:

* What are all the layers of construction needed to make it?

* What did it cost? For every cent of that money, where did it eventually go? All of them can be tracked from its creation until the end of the currency.

* What people designed the methods to construct it? What were their lives like, what led to them doing so?

* What does the surface look like if you were to look at it at 10x, 100x, 10,000x, etc. scale? How does all of that structure change when it's under pressure? Or wet? Or on fire? Or crushed? Or at different temperatures?

* What does it look like as molecules of air bounce off of it and it insulates the room?

* What are its physical properties? What does it look like in all the different wavelengths of light?

* What is it history, from the retrieval of the materials to its final destruction some time in the future? What is its eventual fate? Will it be destroyed to make room for a newer building? Or in a war? A natural disaster?

* What people were near it? What were they doing and why? Office workers? Secretaries? Programmers? Nurses? Was it separating people who were friends or hated each other?

* What's the history of the design of the pigment used on the wall? What previous pigments did it replace and why?

* If you look at the pattern of bumps and valleys on the surface, does it match some existing pattern? What mathematical formula would most closely re-create the surface variations? What's the closest match to that pattern anywhere in the universe, at any scale? Maybe there's some sand on a beach or a cluster of stars that when viewed from just the right angle matches the pits and valleys on the wall.

* What does the surface feel like? Not just for one person, but for all humans? If you were to take every single human who has ever lived and let them feel the wall, what would happen? Which ones would tell jokes? Which ones would remember something from their past? Which would have some interesting specialist perspective on it? Which ones would like it? Hate it? How would they all describe it?

We only have access to a tiny fraction of that information. But it's all there! You could spend an eternity studying a single blade of grass and it's relation to everything else and all of the history. There's always some new abstraction or perspective or way to look at everything.

Most of us suffer a kind of nihilism that mankind has never really faced before due to modern science. Materialistic understanding of the world has broken our ability to recognize patterns of being that were once obvious to our ancestors. They would find a modern atheist and fundamentalist equally blind in these areas as they saw the reality of the world much more alive and predictable over vast time periods than we do now and they had the language to understand it.

John Vervaeke and the Pageau Brothers are working hard on this front. I'd highly recommend John's Meaning Crisis Videos, Mathieu Pageau's book on Cosmic Symbolism and Johnathan's educational videos.

If you are new to this, it can be a bit mind bending, but it's duly needed in our time.

https://www.meaningcrisis.co/all-transcripts/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIJuIN6kUcU

https://www.amazon.com/Language-Creation-Symbolism-Genesis-C...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtmLCK1keFI&t=1874s

I really wish I could be religious. I know that the community and meaning it provides would bring me a lot of happiness, I just can't look past it being untrue.
You might consider humanism. It provides purpose and community, without requiring a deity.
Unitarian Universalism is a church without dogma. Basically, people who generally believe there's a purpose to life, that nobody has any sort of monopoly on the truth, and that there's value to congregating.
"There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship–be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles–is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It’s the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It’s been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness." - DFW

Academic science resembles religion with its dogmas, nepotism, bureaucracies, and favor-currying shibboleths. Deep learning in particular is akin to modern alchemy [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7psGHgatGM

Everyone is always quick to tell you why you need to be religious, and I don’t even disagree with most of the reasons.

What’s frustrating is nobody tells you how to reverse a life of agnosticism bordering on atheism, and suddenly be catholic,Buddhist,etc

Further. Religion requires something to assent and belong to. That will always be a choice to some degree.

As someone who is formerly deeply Christian and left for intellectual/theological reasons. I miss the communal binding of organized worship. But reversing or getting back to that place requires either 1) letting go of intellectual integrity, or 2) finding a group who is similarly interested in dispassionate community organizing without supernatural theology.

The 1st has proven personally impossible. The 2nd seems very unlikely. All the attempts of secular church I have seen never pick up steam and trail off over time. Thus, the person who sees religious association as a broad good is left without a natural landing spot.

// But reversing or getting back to that place requires either 1) letting go of intellectual integrity

I love how you crystalized the point although I've reached a different conclusion.

This was actually my original "before" state - I assumed that religion was an illogical holdover and not something that I ( a logical / scientist ) person can internalize.

But over time, I connected with people who are very smart and very logical and whose faith is deepened by this (though to be clear, faith is still faith - even if you believe in the absence of a deity that's still a belief)

So I am very happy that I am at a place where I can grow my religious and faithful over time while being logically and internally consistent.

I appreciate that this is something that matters to you and perhaps something you could enjoy is to connect with someone whom you respect as an intellectual who is also religious, and see how they make sense of it.

"...where I can grow my religious and faithful over time while being logically and internally consistent."

But... HOW?

I don't know a single person who is an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious. So I'm asking genuinely here on HN how you do it.

> I don't know a single person who is an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious.

But you may well know people who are intellectual, scientifically minded and closeted religious. As this thread can attest, there is rampant discrimination against religious experience and thought in the science/tech community.

> So I'm asking genuinely here on HN how you do it.

I believe that most deep religious experiences are things that happen to you, not things that you actively plan for. But having said that, I believe that the key in general is humility. So many people in this thread (and others on HN) have displayed incredible arrogance that is an effective protective barrier from having a religious experience. This is very much their loss. We all end up humbled eventually though.

No matter how you feel about religion in the 21st century, we would not have a civilization were it not for religion. When you dig deep enough, you will generally find that the seed of the society came from a visionary mystic. Even Genghis Khan was a shaman as much as he was a warrior.

Empirical science is neither the beginning nor the end, though it is an extraordinarily powerful tool. The rules of empirical science are bounded in such a way that it is essentially impossible to talk scientifically about some of the most important aspects of being human. Funnily enough, scientists engage just as much as religious people in mysticism when they throw up their hands and describe consciousness as an "emergent" phenomenon.

Religious texts are deeply fascinating if you allow them to be. Think of them as founding civilizational documents like a constitution. All of us live in cultures that descend from these (relatively) ancient texts. You would not be here if it weren't for these past religious traditions. That doesn't mean that we should blindly follow religious leaders or accept everything that we read in these texts. But we should at least have some curiosity about how we got here and ask what relevant wisdom might still be there for us in these texts. That is a far more scientific approach than casually dismissing religion as nonsense.

// But... HOW? ... I don't know a single person who is an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious. So I'm asking genuinely here on HN how you do it.

I need to write in more depth about it. I'll give you a super short TLDR and I apologize if this is not sufficient to intellectually connect to.

Let me hit it from two angles:

First of all, you do know many such people. For example, Isaac Newton was deeply religious, as was Darwin (his faith was later shaken by the loss of a child), Georges Lemaître who theorized the Big Bang was a Catholic Priest, Edward Hubble who observed evidence of the Big Bang, was a devout Christian. People claim that not much is known about Einstein's religiosity, but it's interesting that he supported a fundraising effort to translate the Talmud into English for example.

So one angle is - you know the founding figures today's science and many/most of them saw no conflict between their science and religion. A quick response may be "well that's what people just believed back then" but - what is the understanding that we have that these scientists didn't, which gives us firm foundation to dismiss religion whey they themselves embraced it?

Second, let's go on a quick mental experiment. Let's accept for the moment that the universe is an accident, that all life is random and that the only reason humans are as we are, is because we evolved to outsmart our predators and prey. A logical implication of that is that we would have no reason to develop the intellect and senses that enable us to understand true reality - to grasp how the universe works. We evolved to just be smart enough to eat a cow rather than be eaten by a wolf.

If you accept that perception/intellectual limitation, the implication is that humans can't expect to assert anything about reality. Just because our instruments don't detect something or our eyes can't see something speaks nothing of the existence of that thing either way. Same as just because some creature didn't evolve sight, doesn't mean that the thing it could have seen if it had sight, doesn't exist - but that creature has no idea!

That takes us to a logical place: humans aren't equipped to objectively conclude anything about the universe. So if you assert lack of creation, lack of divinity - that's just what you chose to believe despite the fact that your tooling for perceiving these things is lacking. So it's faith either way.

I don't think I articulate the 2nd point well enough, it needs more. But let me know how it sounds, I'd appreciate the feedback.

There's an intellectual, scientifically minded, and openly religious person that writes this blog: http://www.wall.org/~aron/blog/

And partly through his influence, today I am Christian and openly religious enough to write this comment. As to whether I'm intellectual and scientifically minded... I'd say so, though it seems a little vain to admit to being intellectual. :-)

"Suddenly" can only happen with grace. One day at a time, one moment at a time, searching for Him until He calls "Zacchaeus come down" (Luke 19:1-10) is the only way we can dispose ourselves for that moment.
It sounds similar to the hypothetical what-happens-the-day-after-capitalism; those who want - or at least don't not want - struggle to think of the pragmatics of what it looks like.

I wouldn't say I'm a born-again-whatever - I usually describe myself as an optimistic spiritual agnostic - but I think a combination of broadening my horizons physically (geographically moving around) and mentally (actually paying attention in grad school to the liberal arts that I thumbed my nose at as an undergrad) and getting hit repeatedly with how little I/we actually know about anything has let me inch away from the cynical a(nti)religiosity and submit to something larger than me.

This has also given me a better appreciation of the books I (was supposed to have) read in high school; in hindsight, I don't think there's any way many students could draw much meaning from them without having their own life experiences.

I prefer the Buddhist interpretation of the afterlife to the Catholic one. Hell is temporary vs eternal, and contingent on not being a monstrous asshole, not your relationship with god.
Speaking as a Catholic, the eternity of hell is based on your willingness to be a monster rather than serve the one who is the source of all good. Which is as horrible an opinion as one could have.
This is a great point and as someone who has grown from a total atheist to the person that kicked off this thread, I can relate.

I don't think there's a simple answer on how to flip that light switch but I can share some ideas.

First, do you have religious people in your life whom you respect even if you don't share their faith. Ask them about it - you can literally say "I don't get it at all but I am curious, what's this like for you?" And just see what resonates.

Second, that is a question you can direct to a member of clergy. If you can't envision yourself walking into a house of worship, shoot an email and be like "I am faithless but curious. I am sure I am not the first one..."

Third, be really for hits and misses. Not every religious person can articulate it in a way that will make sense to you, and not every clergy person can speak to it effectively either (some people can only preach to the converted, to borrow a phrase.) But if you ping a few people, some of them may give you something that's a good thread to follow.

Fourth, I suggest starting with whatever faith your family was historically in. There's something cool about that.

Fifth, if really nothing else - shoot me a way to contact you and we can chat about my experience.

You've discovered a (large) group of people who have torn down Chesterton's Fence without fully appreciating why it was there to begin with. Same with people who "smash the (patriarchy|capitalism)", they end up extremely discontent to realize that other things end up filling the vacuum and they're often worse, much worse.

https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Chesterton%27s_Fence

The real question is it better to lie to yourself and believe in something that is simply not true? Or to be true to yourself and deal with the loneliness that is existence.

To me the choice to clear- be true to yourself. In that sense, organized religion has no place in this world.

I think you're mistaking (along with many people including many religious people themselves), what religion's purpose actually is.

IMO, religion isn't really about truth, or "there is an afterlife", or "there's a magical almighty person(s) out there". Rather, it's mostly just a bunch of advice, principles and curated wisdom passed down from generation and generation to help people live a happy, meaningful life.

Like "you shall not kill", or "you shall not steal" or "treat your neighbor like you would yourself" - are arguably good principles to follow if you want to live in a peaceful society free from violence, as obeying these rules minimizes desire for anyone to have vengeance upon their neighbor. Or take Buddhism, which preaches that nirvana is absence of desire and craving, which shows that sometimes your own greed and ambitions can be the cause of your suffering, and by simply being grateful, can bring you happiness.

In this sense, I think it's valuable and has a place in the world. I mean, are we alone in existence, and is death the end? I think so, but if it makes some people feel better thinking otherwise is possible, then what's wrong with letting them believe or put hope into that?

So to me, religion isn't so much about "what is true and not true", but more rather: "here's some wisdom on how to lead an enjoyable life".

Community is the main thing religious provides. But in exchange, you typically have to believe in some type of sky magician. It's too bad because I enjoyed the community aspect of religion growing up but never really was able to buy into the sky magician part.
As a religious person who has deeply considered leaving it, I've never understood the arrogance of some atheists. For me it was disturbing to try to internalize the ideas that the universe is uncaring, that good and evil are made up, that your consciousness is basically like the contents of a stick of RAM that will vanish when it loses its power source.

Even the original "God is dead" quotes from Nietzsche sound mournful, not arrogant. From what I understand he was trying to convey the same thing you are: that by turning away from religion, we are undoing many of the basic moral underpinnings of our culture. Now we have to rebuild them with something new, and quite obviously, people can't agree on one set of ideas.

For me believing in omnipotent and good god seems arrogant as well. Is good that some people were born disabled?
Sure, anyone can be arrogant about anything, I'm just saying I don't understand it.
Just like some atheists need to the corresponding lesson about theists, it's worth taking a step back and remind yourself that not everybody was raised in a religious way.

Don't forget that to some of us religious stories contain nothing of particular interest or are similar to ancient fairy tales, and the history of various churches and religions is a mere part of the general human history of power struggles between elites in various countries. When you haven't been raised in religious ways, you feel no guilt about making blasphemous remarks and do not fear the wrath of supposed supernatural entities.

> For me it was disturbing to try to internalize the ideas that the universe is uncaring, that good and evil are made up, that your consciousness is basically like the contents of a stick of RAM that will vanish when it loses its power source.

How is that arrogant? It seems humble to me to acknowledge that I as an individual and a society on the whole don't actually mean much.

I'm not saying that accepting those facts is arrogant, but that there is a subset of insufferable atheists that try to belittle religious people.
> For me it was disturbing to try to internalize the ideas that the universe is uncaring, that good and evil are made up, that your consciousness is basically like the contents of a stick of RAM that will vanish when it loses its power source.

Everyone of us wants to feel significant, loved, and giving up on an idea that we live forever, that there's always someone external looking out for us etc is an emotionally difficult process to go through.

But that's what personal growth is. It doesn't mean that you go nuts and do crazy shit - consequences exist. What it means is that your perspective changes and you become OK with just being you, and taking a journey on a speeding rock through space.

People think that you lose when you give up religion, which is in part true - but there is also a lot to be gained - in personal development, seeing life from a different perspective and appreciating the limited time we have before donating our atoms back to the universe.

> but there is also a lot to be gained - in personal development

So replace religion with unscientifically naive optimism? That too is a delusional narrative. "Donating your atoms back to the universe" as if a personified "universe" cares about you on its way to heat death, someone get me my spirit crystals.

You might say you're off the religious dance-floor, but you're still doing the moves. In fact it's almost more rational to get back into one of the holy books, at least there you can connect the dots on attaching meaning to the present.

Sounds like someone got triggered by the phrase "personal development"...

Not sure what's so delusional about having your atoms be reused for other purposes when you die... what else would happen?

As for the word "donating", that's more a personal mindset. What I'm saying is, I'm OK with death, I'm not so egotistical to think that I'm anything more than a moment in time.

Optimism and naivety, well you can interpret whatever I said however you like, but there's actually no real argument that you've made in relation to what I wrote.

> For me it was disturbing to try to internalize the ideas that the universe is uncaring, that good and evil are made up, that your consciousness is basically like the contents of a stick of RAM that will vanish when it loses its power source.

I find that disturbing, too, even as someone who believes it's likely true.

But when I was deeply Christian, I also found my denomination's view on the afterlife disturbing, too. If you live literally forever, what happens when you've done everything that matters? What even matters anymore in a world without need? How can everyone be happy at the same time if happiness depends on other people whose wants may not align? If existence in the afterlife is fundamentally different from the mortal life, there's still something of familiarity to me that will end forever. Maybe that's equivalent to my current conscious experience blinking out.

I've come to view life as a ride. It's valuable for its own sake, not because of some greater meaning I can't ascertain. It's an absolute miracle that we all exist, in the thousands of years of culture and writing, we're nowhere close to knowing why we're here, so why bother wasting my one life worrying about it when the joys of existing are self-evident.

I disagree that we’re undoing the moral underpinnings of society.

I think humans have an in-built moral compass but sometimes that compass gets warped and distorted by our environment.

Name a society that hasn’t valued love, friendship, family, etc.

I don't think they're missing out. I just think they're deluded.

It's not the worst thing in the world to be deluded - and frankly I just don't care what they do and say unless it starts to impact me and mine. It's not religion per se I dislike - people are free to live their lives as they see fit, it's the control-structure scam of an organized religion that reels in the gullible, the poor, the disadvantages, those who believe what they're being told. That is disgusting, IM(ns)HO.

These megapastors (and even not-so-megapastors) bilking their flock to pay for the latest Learjet... I think they believe in religion as much as I do, tbh.

You’re using the most extreme example to condemn essentially all organized religion. Many religious scholars and preachers live modest lives, sometimes even by choice.

Of course “religious” folks who tell people they should simply endure, rather than resist, injustice and inequality are disgusting. But sometimes despite your best efforts, the bad guys still win (temporarily).

Telling people that this life is not the end-all-be-all is only manipulative if it’s meant to make people passive. And I know that not everyone informs people about the afterlife out of malice.

I think you'll find many of them believe more in values than in what you're calling delusions in their own right.
Same. I met so many religious people who were smarter, more widely read, and wiser than me that my childhood prejudices about them had to be drastically re-evaluated, even though my fundamental position on the existence of God is unchanged. Faith is now on an entirely separate axis from intelligence or wisdom for me.
That's kinda my process as well. The next step was to be curious and ask those people - you are so smart how are you engaging with this thing that makes no sense to me at all. They may give an interesting perspective.
That's interesting to me because for me, it's kind of the opposite. I was deeply religious the first half of my life. But eventually, I found it was the non-religious people in my life who challenged me to grow. And I find that many of the most religious people I know are frustratingly limited in the things they're willing to learn and think, to things that don't significantly challenge the particular edifices of their faith. To be clear, this can be true of non-religious people, too.
Absolutely. I wish there was secular community that offered as much.
This is for people who lift weights. Do you get calluses along the pads of your hand, just below your fingers? You are probably gripping the bar incorrectly. This also applies to pull-ups/chin-ups grip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OK-S3ZJZxQ.

TL;DR: grip the bar across the joint at the bottom of your fingers instead of across the middle of your palm. This doesn't apply to bench pressing (a push), but applies to all moves that involve pulling/lifting the bar.

I get these from deadlifting. I think I intuitively know what he's saying, but I have small hands (for a man of my height), and my grip is pretty weak so I'm already using the thinner 35lb bar. I do mixed grip, left hand over + right hand under, and gripping it the first way adds a bit of friction as the bar tries to rotate out of my hand.

I don't know, maybe I'll try this next time I deadlift but I feel like it would just weaken my already weak grip.

Practice hanging from a pull-up bar for time (i.e. practice hanging from a pull-up bar for longer and longer periods of time, using the grip shown in the video) if you want to build up this type of grip. You can also practice by putting bags of rice or a gallon of milk (or two) into a bag, then holding the handles across your second knuckle for time.

Grip is the main way we interact with the world, so it's worth training it. Also, grip strength is the most reliable predictor we have found for life expectancy. (i.e. higher grip strength means higher life expectancy). It could be correlation/causation fallacy, but I have decided to just assume it's worth training it for all the other benefits that having good grip strength brings.

I forgot to add in my first response to your comment: it's worth learning the hook grip to get that additional "friction" you're looking for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMA2SqaDgG8
The linked video is about kitchen knife skills, linked elsewhere in this thread. Is the one you wanted to share?
I recently started lifting weights. I just bought gloves. I like this tip though - thanks.
I would highly recommend not using gloves. They reduce the feedback you have on the bar and can lead to entrenching bad habits with regard to grip. Chalk and the technique in the video are a time-tested approach.
I took too much chalk and "ripped" part of my skin under my hands.

Where can I read more about the techniques and/or bad habits? Interesting.

In the theme of the OP and by way of response, I've been lifting weights for decades but only in the last couple years realized that gloves were detrimental to lifting. They add a layer of material around the bar that increases its circumference and thereby increases the effort required to grip it for pulling movements. They reduce your tactile connection to the bar which is important for engaging secondary muscles in certain lifts (e.g., lats in the overhead press) as you progress in strength and for very technical lifts such as the clean. The only time hand protection may be beneficial is for movements in which your hand rotates relative to a bar. That is never the case for a (properly performed) barbell exercise but may be the case in certain gymnastic movements on a pullup bar and in that case, you might consider gymnastics grips.
Related note, if you lift enough weight - even with this technique - you'll still get callouses. But this is good nonetheless.
Good for callus prevention, but probably bad for actual serious "pulling". I remember this video from 10+ years ago, when powerlifters were still doing the alternate grip for DL. Now more or less everyone hooks and depending on hand size, you need bar much lower on pads to have extra finger length wrap around bar for thumb to securely hook. Smaller the hands the lower on palm you need for good hook, every extra mm you get on that thumb counts. Which makes a huge different depending on bar diameter, typically 25-32mm where women bar thinnest, then deadlift bar, men standard, then garbage cheap commercial bars. If you have big hands it might not matter much, but medium/small hands could be pulling 100s of lbs less. That said, it's not dogmatic GOMAD tier of bad advice from Rippetoe, this is pretty good advice to get newbies especially women to start lifting, along with everyone wearing tights now to prevent shin scrapes. Ultimately, if you want to pull weight fast, you have to hook and heavy weight over 100s of reps will roll in hands and form calluses anyway, IMO best to invest in a nice razor pedicure shaver and keep up with hand health.
Not really "wrong" but at some point in the last couple years I was using my microwave, putting something in for a minute, and for that I've always input 1:00 but suddenly I realized how obvious it was that I can just be inputting 60.

As long as you can easily modulo the time, this works for the range 1 minute (60) to 1 minute 39 seconds (99). Technically you could also do this for times like 2:65 instead of 3:05 but at that point you're not saving a keystroke. And on most microwaves they have an annoying delay between when you can do another keystoke after doing the last one, so I've appreciated the little bit of time saving I get with this knowledge.

66 is close enough to 60, and lets you just mash the one key :) Though I just mash the +30 seconds button until it gets in the ballpark, and it turns on the microwave immediately with the first press. 15 seconds either way isn't going to make a difference, and I usually pull it early anyway once it starts to smell/sound/look cooked.
Hmm. Maybe there's more opportunity for you to optimize even a bit more. On my (cheap) microwave, I can push 1 through 6 and it just goes for that number of minutes. And pushing Start adds 30 seconds. More resolution is seldom needed.
The bigger "Why wasn't I doing this sooner" with microwaves is using lower power modes.

They don't actually reduce the 'power' of the microwave, but they turn it on and then back off again for a proportion of time, over and over.

It takes longer to reheat stuff this way, but it comes out much more evenly heated, I find.

Stir or otherwise rearrange what you're heating every so often, too. Microwaves deliver energy mostly to the outside of what they're bombarding, so it improves heat distribution to mechanically move the heated parts toward the center and vice versa - this helps prevent the "burnt outside and still cold in the middle" problem.
Can confirm. I make omelet in a microwave sometimes and the center is always last to cook compared to an outside ring. I simply rearrange contents when it’s half-ready.
And on many microwaves, the “reheat” button is just a guided version of a low power mode.

The newer microwaves with a sensor reheat button are pretty great.

Some do operate in a "true" lower power mode (or at least in some mode that's indistinguishable to us). Ours does and it's great. But it's the first one I've had that actually does that; the rest have operated in lower power mode in the way you're describing.
The ones that have a true low power mode are called inverter microwaves and cost like twice as much. They may be worth it if you like to defrost food in the micro as it prevents the food from cooking
They are absolutely worth it! Easy defrosting, uniform reheating, less noise, especially if it’s a rotation-free model like Panasonic NN-DS596B.
Panasonic "inverter" microwaves actually do reduce the power output. It's one of my favorite features. On power level 1 you can actually soften butter without melting random pits into it.

Unfortunately, at least on my current model, the UX to access this feature is very bad: repeatedly pressing the "power" button until it reaches the desired level. I've had other microwaves where you just key in the desired power after pressing "power", and much prefer that method.

I don't know whether Panasonic has licensed this to any other manufacturer.

I also have the one from Panasonic, but I'm seeing other manufacturers advertise inverter technology on their microwaves recently.
>you can actually soften butter

Ooh that's a good use case. What else do you do with it?

Anything dense (e.g. lasagna, meatloaf, etc.) is good for a lower power level / more time trade-off. It will end up more evenly warm without the edges exploding. I usually use power 3 or 4 for these dense dishes.
Inverter microwave is not complex system so many microwaves in Japan supports it.
> They don't actually reduce the 'power' of the microwave,

Depends on the microwave, you can get models that do adjust the power and they are very nice to use. Being able to slowly and evenly heat up food in the microwave is a huge game changer when it comes to how you use your microwave.

Pretty crucial for defrosting. You really don't want to try to defrost a slab of lasagne say on 100%, 1kW or whatever, it's going to come out both just as frozen as when it went in and steaming hot ready to eat.

(I agree it applies just as well generally - but defrosting makes it more apparent/visible.)

I prefer simpler microwaves with just two knobs: one for amount of power and one for the time. No buttons to press and no ambiguous user interface either. Just turn the knobs to the desired values and you're done. No buttons to press at all.
Yes! I once had a cheap microwave that only had a timer knob on it and I found myself twisting it indiscriminately because all I wanted was for it to be on. Being a mechanical timer, the resolution wasn't good enough that precise cook times were achievable. The power level on that unit was not very good, anyway.

I grew to prefer that method of interfacing with a microwave. "Just go! I don't care about the cook time!" When my wife and I bought our first house and purchased our appliance set, I wanted a microwave that did not force me to go through a timer workflow. Having such a workflow was good, but I also wanted some sort of "on" button on it. We picked out a GE Profile unit that had two user-assignable functions on the main interface. I assigned a "30s cook" function to one of the buttons. This is my "on" button. Additional presses of the button append 30s to the timer. This satisfies most of my needs.

Unfortunately, when I want to reduce power, the buttons that I have to press to do so are not as simple. I start the cook via the normal quick 30s button, but then I have to press the power button, then have to press the down button several times to lower the default power level of 10 to something more reasonable like 5 or 3, then I have to press to confirm that level. This takes precious seconds -- if it's a sensitive item like a small dipping bowl of marinara or something, the adjustment may be too late. Sure, I guess I could go through the full cook workflow, but that's not how I want to interact with it. And you know, if I am expending the time and energy to lower the power level from 10, it is highly unlikely that 9 will be my desired power level. Instead, I wish there was a "halve power level" button on the cook screen that cut the active duty cycle in half. So one press takes me from PL10 to PL5, another press goes to PL2.5, and so forth. Then I'd be happy.

I don't use any of the other features buried in the menus. It's all superfluous.

I sincerely wish I could get a new microwave with a good quality digital dial/knob for setting the timer, and a popcorn button.

Buttons suck.

It's a fun fact that the reason for this was for preparation for the introduction of a metric minute composed of 100 seconds that was mandated by the government in the 1960s just as the first digital controls for home appliances were being introduced.

If I recall correctly - 60 imperial seconds are equivalent to 100 metric seconds a sort of inverse to the 100 kph being equivalent to 60 mph (metric units were mandated on American speedometers at the same time)

Of course on the speedometer you can just display both units where as on the microwave entry it's more the intention of the user that drives interpretation. So they got stuck at 100=60 and since everyone just interpreted 100 metric seconds as 1:00, minute it never caught on but never went away either.

It's a fun fact that the reason for this was for preparation for the introduction of a metric minute composed of 100 seconds that was mandated by the government in the 1960s just as the first digital controls for home appliances were being introduced.

This sounds like complete nonsense and I can't find any evidence of such a "mandated by the government metric time" with Google.

I think "imperial second" kind of gives it away.
> It's a fun fact that the reason for this was for preparation for the introduction of a metric minute composed of 100 seconds that was mandated by the government in the 1960s [...] (metric units were mandated on American speedometers at the same time)

The Metric Conversion Act was in 1975, not the 1960s, and I am fairly sure that a decimalized minute was never part of any plans for US metrication anyhow.

This seems like an urban legend where the more likely reason is that its a practical design to treat the last two digits as seconds abd everything before as minutes, irrespective of whether the last two digits are greater than one minute, when making a keypad entry system. It bith does what is likely intended and avoids needing validation/error reporting since every possible numerical entry becomes correct.

I do 55 or 66 seconds. Or the +30 button.

Related: hold down 2 on the microwave for a couple of seconds to silence all chirps.

Alongside this point, just discovered using the “sensor cook” mode on my microwave a few days ago. Apparently it measures the humidity coming off the food and adjusts the cooking power and time accordingly. One button push and you can walk away, confident the food will be heated through but not overcooked. Game changer.
Even easier than typing 60 for one minute is to type 55.

I often type 33, 111, 222, etc for the time saving benefit

In must microwaves just pressing 1 (and correspondingly 1-5ish) and nothing else will start the microwave on high for 1 minute at full power. Rather than having to press <timed-cook + 6 + 0 + start>.
Microwaves are getting better UX these days. The cheap one I bought from Walmart about a year ago lets me press `1` and it auto-starts a one-minute heating process.
I (almost) exclusively use the "Start (+30 s)" button to set time. It's very rare for me to microwave things more than 3 minutes (6 rapid button presses), I normally do 60 or 90 s. The microwave starts going as soon as the first button is hit.
I assume everyone talking about button presses has simply never used one with a knob, and so doesn't know what they're missing - it's a vastly superior time-setting UI for a microwave I think.
You all won’t believe me, but I just turn the knob to 1 minute, turn the power setting and close the door (in any order). No “input” required.

It’s amazing how they manage to sell that touch nonsense for $$$$.

Not telling my friends that I love them.

I was 28 the first time a friend told me "I love you" in a pure friendship way (and while sober), and without being a part of a special situation. I've also done it afterwards, and because I had never told my friend i love them, it made the message even stronger.

It feels wrong that we don't do this more often.

I recently remembered to tell my kids "I like hanging out with you" or "this was nice being with you today". I did it a while back when I had a realization that my parents didn't like spending time with me and I didn't want my kids to feel that. But then I forgot for a time...
This is truly wonderful. I do the same (even if it's sometimes just "love ya man").
The difference in feeling between “I love you”, “love you”, “love you guys”, “love ya”, “all my love”, “much love” is actually striking.
Same. But specifically not initiating. I had a couple friends from way back who would say that and I would respond in kind. My change, later in life, was to be the first to say it - and with any good friend. For me the change was to be in a friend group of mostly women - who are generally more likely to share their feelings.

Share the love.

I completely agree. It wasn't until my best friend got terminal cancer that we started saying it.
I don’t feel comfortable telling people I love them outside of a serious relationship, so this always makes me feel a touch weird.

Like, my best friends, I love them in a sense I guess…but I wouldn’t say that. It just doesn’t feel natural to me. I’d characterize our relationship as close, and that I care about them a lot, but “love” isn’t something that comes to mind outside of my parents or someone I’ve been in a long term relationship with.

I’m not sure why. Maybe it has to do with being an only child. Maybe it has to do with all my grandparents dying when I was young, and not being that close with extended family, so there was never really anyone to love outside of my parents for the vast majority of my life prior to any long term relationships.

You need to understand that expressing love, and being in love are separate things. Saying "I love you" to one of your buddies doesn't mean you're lusting after them, just that you care about them in a deeper way. I still struggle with it, but I say "I love you, brutha!" or "love you, dude!"

I'm also an only child. I wasn't told "I love you", I was told "shut up". Being able to say "I love you" to somebody in the context we're discussing has been a game changer for me. It's just so freeing.

I mean I very much understand the difference, as I said in my original comment, I don’t just see love as an intimate thing with a partner, but as a way to express love to…well…loved ones. Like parents or family. I guess I just have for the vast majority of my life only associated with expressing love and caring via saying “love you” to my parents, that it feels as if it’s almost reserved for them. And then of course the “in love” meaning is reserved for a relationship.

Like, even when I’m around extended family that says love you, I just feel awkward and almost forced to respond with love you too back to them. Like I care for them of course…but I would never say I love you to one of them without them saying it to me first.

I have reframed how I interpret feeling awkward because of things like this.

Awkward is the feeling of trying something new (a form of play). Similar to giddiness.

Like trying out a new style of clothing, it's just the feeling of a new experience.

It's an intense sensation because we don't allow ourselves to feel as adults and assume it means I did something wrong/bad. No, it's just the experience of doing something different than you've always done. The context can tell you if it is problematic, but usually, it isn't something others notice.

I like this perspective. Sometimes I notice that the people I value aren't quite ready to hear it from me.

When that happens, a funny thought pops into my head -- love is a four letter word.

give it time :-) love might be a foreign thing in friendships if they’re all based only in hobbies or if your circle’s changing every year. stick with anyone for a decade though: watch them go through breakups, career changes, and grow into themselves — watch everything around the two of you change even as that friendship persists — and only a true stoic will insist that there’s no love there.

i’m not sure extended family is the right analog for this love. as you hint, that family is kinda forced on you, and that implicit v.s. opt-in nature of family vs friendship has big implications for how open you can be with each other, for example. it’s really its own thing.

Totally get where you're coming from with this, so if you're uncomfortable with that type of language in contexts where it doesn't make sense for you, don't feel pressured.

However, in my own life, I've found that there isn't some limited supply of love I have to share with others—in fact, it's been the opposite experience. The more freely I love those around me, the more fulfilling I find those relationships to be.

I am more reticent to use that language quite so flippantly with those I am actually romantically interested in though. When the potential for misunderstanding is there (i.e. romantic love vs platonic love or eros vs. philia vs. agape love to use koine greek terms), I tend to err on the side of caution so I don't accidentally communicate a level of depth that I don't intend.

I guess spanish made this easier with 2 separate verbs.

You can say "te amo" to your significant other and "te quiero" to your friends and family.

It's unfortunate that English doesn't have enough words for different kinds of love: lustful "love", romantic love, brotherly love, general love of humankind, appreciation for non-human things (e.g. I love these shoes!), different words for levels of love (e.g. between "like" and "love"), etc.

Instead they're all lumped into "love". Ugh.

Your examples show that you can express these ideas in English quite fine.
It sounds like you have normal and healthy relationships. I doubt they'll improve if you just start saying I Love You and I doubt they need to improve.
I too kind of hold my pencil “wrong” when I write. I tend to rest my wrist on the paper, which leads to smudging of the text and graphite building up on my hands.

I never really learned a better way; I am just a really fast typist now and I type everything.

Thinking that most people have good intentions.
Even if they say they have your best interest in mind, they might not, or they might be misinformed about you and act on un-truths. Either way it can be very detrimental.
Most people just follow the trend. But there are leaders that promote the worst in people. And they have a huge part of attention nowadays.
I saw a documentary once where a cop said that 10% always have bad intentions, 10% always have good intentions, and 80% are situational. We don't normally encounter the ones with constant bad intentions because most end up in prison.

But it stuck with me because my father was always around really nice people and I realised he faced the opposite of the prison effect. If you're consistently nice to people, you end up in the crowd of people with better intentions. It's a selection bias.

The 10% bad and 10% good is also a strong proxy for poverty/plenty. Desperate people do desperate things.

Also, be careful how you assign "bad". It can either be unethical or illegal, as they are not the same thing.

Poverty/plenty is in the 80%.

Bad means someone who would molest a child because it's a new experience or run over a stranger with a car. A business owner who is proud that the people he hires don't make enough money to eat.

Hitmen who consider the people they kill as rats so they don't get emotional scarred by the murder - they're in the 80%. A tyrant who orders a city pillaged and raped to assert dominance, also in the 80%.

If you want to do a marvelous deep dive on this concept, I highly recommend the Evolution of Cooperation by Robert Axelrod. It's a masterful work on the game theory behind how different species/animals/people cooperate and why, and it is a deeply intellectual and rigorous book that uses no more than 6th grade algebra to get its point across. Promise you you'll like it.
If a cop said it, I'm just going to assume it's false.

Bad people don't end up in prison, not for the most part. Bad intention and crime aren't the same thing.

not everyone in prison. many are smart, cautious and/or experienced. I would even say most are not while most people in prison are not "always bad" but situational.
Not everyone in prison is bad and not everyone bad ends up in prison.

But it got me thinking that there are people out there who will stab you just for disagreeing with them. We don't encounter them often because nearly all the people who can't control themselves end up in prison. It's dangerous to assume that people will always act in their own best interest.

I think it’s a good practice to assume that people have good/average intentions. Nobody is the villain in the story they tell themselves. I get farther in life with this philosophy:

Nobody is out to get me. Also, it’s a C+ world out there, with a lot of incompetent people.

Be smart, and be very careful about whether you trust somebody to deliver the outcome that you want. But if they mess it up, come up with some reasons other than “so-and-so is evil” or "so-and-so hates me". It’ll help your state of mind, and also your interactions with them.

you should always assume this, otherwise you just sign yourself up to play a losing game for the rest of your life
Put a person in debt for 30+ years so that he has to deliver (most of the time they fake it) and see how toxic that person becomes. I see a lot of managers beeing trapped and replaceable. They are the most toxic people. They will do anything not to loose that job because the bank will take their home. Developers are not much better, but the culture is set by managers.
Everything happens in a good intention, in the person own regards. This may conflict with your values.
Pasta and sauce are not meant to be separate. Once you cook the pasta, drain it, and immediately toss with the sauce. This is part of the reason it was meant to be al dente, to absorb and deliver the flavor of the sauce better. Unlike rice, it's fine to "soak" pasta in the sauce; it expands when freshly cooked but not when cool.

Also most sauce recipes are probably overcomplicated. Most need less than 5 ingredients. You probably don't need all that onion and garlic, but one of them. Definitely not two tablespoons of dried oregano.

The way you cut onions and garlic changes the flavor a lot too. Finely minced garlic, from a food processor or garlic press can be overpowering yet not deliver the flavor. One trick is to crush the garlic and let the oil it's in carry the flavor. Half an onion can work really well in a sauce you cooking for half an hour.

> Unlike rice, it's fine to "soak" pasta in the sauce

Why is this bad with rice? When I make a stew I often put some rice in, with the expectation that the rice will absorb some of the stew.

Same. Also to make risotto you cook the rice with everything else and keep stirring so the rice absorbs all of it whilst releasing starch to make that creamy texture.
It doesn't work well with most Asian dishes with sauces. Such as butter chicken, curry, the stuff with coconut milk, sambal.

I think stew might be an exception, because you want it to be porridge-like. But for many sauces, that's too soggy. You usually want it to soak for a few seconds to minutes but not an hour.

Rice can almost fully disintegrate if left in water, and will become something that disintegrates even more if stirred or agitated. In many other applications it replaces a pleasantly tactile and textured starch with a sort of sludge slurry, but as is often the case if you know and expect this it can be used in some applications advantageously. Thickening a stew is one of them. It's actually my favorite stew thickener. We discovered this the hard way once, though. We just "threw some rice" into a stew, and, well, if you put enough "sludge slurry" into a stew it starts to dominate... since then, though, it's been something very useful, especially since I'm allergic to flour, one of the traditional choices.
It's not bad, per se. It depends what you're going for. There's a lot of different ways to cook rice "properly" depending on the end dish. Congee, risotto, paella, sushi, etc. all have you cook rice differently while adding various degrees of liquid at different times.
Also, you don't have to boil the pasta for the full 8 minutes or whatever, just the first couple of minutes, then let it sit, eg https://www.barilla.com/en-gb/passive-cooking
I cared while I thought it was a way to better pasta. Very disappointing.
It's pasta, in boiling/hot water, so I'm not sure there are many variables apart from time.

I don't believe there's a 'gourmet method' or anything like that which can get better results than just 'correctly cooked' pasta.

But, you can measure the perfect cooking time/hydration by measuring the length ratio of cooked/dry (assuming spaghetti): https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2201/2201.09621.pdf

Perhaps you could use this to devise a protocol to parboil the pasta, and then finish hydrating it to the perfect consistency in the hot sauce.

+1. I used to subscribe to "huge pot of boiling water" until Kenji studied it.

https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-cook-pasta-salt-water-boi...

I've switched to his method. It works really well. Doesn't take as long to boil, uses less gas, uses less water, uses less salt (b/c you waste less in the water). Now I just heat the water to boiling, throw in the pasta, let it come back to a boil, stir a bunch, turn off the heat, and put the lid on. Works every time.

Had to wade through a lot of bad advice before finding a fellow Kenji acolyte ;) That man is an excellent teacher and a great mythbuster.
Obvious in retrospect: once the water is boiling, any other increase of energy will only be used to evaporate the water. The temperature won't increase. And water can stay hot long enough to cook the pasta. Also less vapor in the environment. I'll try it next time.
I really thought I hated spaghetti growing up. My parents would boil the noodles and then pour room temp sauce from a jar at the table individually. It was inedible.

I was visiting a friend and had it all cooked together in the pan for the first time and it was eye opening.

Room temp sauce on cooked pasta?! Just gagged reading this.
Can be the right thing to do—if it's not a red sauce. Pesto, oil-"sauces", that kind of thing.
That probably wouldn't be described as "inedible" then.
It was red sauce. Anything other than red sauce is too fancy for my parents.

My wife and I always heat the pesto a little in the pan - is that not the right thing to do?

Pesto burns really easily and its flavors after cooking are generally regarded as worse than when it's uncooked. Heating it a little probably doesn't hurt, but it's intended to be kind of a fresh sauce, so, little or no cooking. Doesn't come through as well with the jar stuff vs. home-made, but still.
You should really check out /r/shittyfoodporn if you want to see just how much you can take.
I got through college on this, it actually wasn't that bad. I added little sauce (Most expensive part of the dish! I didn't buy cheap sauce.) and folded it into the boiling hot noodles immediately after draining. Brought the whole dish almost immediately to serving temperature, so I could eat right away instead of waiting for it to cool.
Can anyone recommend good books on PTSD for relief from reading about OPs childhood?
That's the spaghetti where the starches have curled back up and make it so the noodles and sauce are like oil and water. Ahh childhood.
One of the things I did my whole life was never criticize my mother's cooking. (She was a much better cook than me, especially her pasta sauce.)

BUT: Once I started cooking I started coaching her back. Specifically, I taught her to defrost her burgers before grilling.

This reminds me...

My parents were on the lower end of rural middle-class so on the rare occasion we went to a restaurant, steak was avoided as the most expensive thing on the menu, and as kids, we didn't have the option of steak anyway. Our meats while growing up were mainly fish, chicken, pork, and hamburger. When I was a teen, my mom got a deal on a big box of steaks somehow and cooked them on the grill every other night for dinner. She made it sound like we were living like royalty but no matter what kind of sauces or seasonings I slathered on, they were always dry and tasteless. I voluntarily skipped a lot of dinners that summer and thought I just hated steak.

In my mid-20s, I befriended a Brazilian. He invited my spouse and I over for a barbecue. When we got there, I found out the only thing going on the grill was steak, a.k.a. Brazilian Beef. Basically thick chunks of steak "marinated" in rock salt then cooked over open coals to sear the outside, but never long enough to get the inside more than medium-rare. I probably mentioned not caring for steak but he assured me I was going to like it. And wow, he was right. So tasty, so juicy. Decades later, I still make it every chance I get.

My wife and I sometimes talk about how our parents basically ruined whole categories of food for us until we got out into the world and experienced (or learned for ourselves) how things were _supposed_ to be cooked.

Growing up I went through the same thing and eventually talked to my mom about it and we came to the conclusion that it all went back to her parents who lived the Great Depression. When you grow up on Bread and Butter pickle sandwiches and then have industrialized food thrown at you post WWII you don't question it, but it has impacts on subsequent generations.

Funny enough the other day I had a liverwurst sandwich, something my Grandmother would have easily recognized, except I bought it from a local whole animal butcher. What was once one of the cheapest forms of meat is now rare gourmet sandwich.

I've picked up on habits in my parents that resemble Great Depression era practices and their relationship with food is the most noticeable. Even my Dad who liked to cook as a hobby had very poor attention to detail when it came to quality. My mother basically made horribly seasoned slop and thought it was perfectly edible. My grandfather was extremely concerned with my mother having a full belly, probably at the cost of quality (a rational worldview when you've experienced starvation firsthand).

At this point, when I meet people my age who describe themselves as "picky eaters" my internal response is "Your parents were probably just bad cooks." At least the experience taught me to take responsibility for what I put into my body.

Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer burns his tongue so bad he becomes a super taster. And the only food he can eat is Bart's cafeteria food because it's so bland haha.

Interestingly, the wikipedia page for super tasters mentions that "some studies also show that increased sensitivity to bitter tastes may be a cause of selective eating." Interesting potential feedback loop.

To mix or not to mix? That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer, the soaking of pasta in outrageous marinara, or to take arms against a sea of sauce.

I remember Anthony Bourdain asking his Sicilian family this question, and the table erupted in hot debate. I'm not sure you are "wrong".

Mixing and finishing the pasta in the sauce results in better tasting food. I don't care if some angry Sicilian claims that's not "authentic" or some garbage. They don't own the concept of pasta in tomato sauce anymore.
They never did. Tomatoes are 100% American. They do not grow natively in Italy or anywhere else in Europe.
I always found this to be extremely amusing, so much of our cultural food touchstones are less old than we think. Tempura for example, is originally Portuguese. Salmon was not used for sushi until pretty recently (needs to be flash frozen to be safe for this one). Japanese curry? From Britain! By way if India.
Biryani? Adapted from Persian cooking.
Ooo that’s a new one for me, awesome! Biryani is so good.
From India by way of Britain, right?
Yes sorry. That is the better way to say it.
By way of Britain is correct. British ‘curry’ is anything cooked with ‘curry powder’ which is an entirely British invention which is not used in India. It’s this curry powder from which Japanese and Korean curries are made.
I also did not know this! That is really interesting.
EUers mostly eat Tomatoes grown within a few hundred miles of EU borders. Not from America.

Morocco is the leading supplier to the EU, accounting for 70% of the EU's total imports, followed by Turkey.

What they mean is that they originate from the Americas, not that it's the only place they grow, meaning it's not an ancient Italian dish. It didn't become popular in Italian food until the 18th century [1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato#Italy

While they might not have been making tomato-based pastas until the 17/18th century that's still earlier than the founding of the US - I think we can credit Sicily with having some impact on tomato based pastas!
I meant the Americas as a continent not the US specifically, and yeah I agree that Italy gets to be an authority on the subject. I was mainly replying to the other person taking "tomatoes are 100% American" to mean all tomatoes are grown in America because that wasn't at all what the comment they'd replied to was saying.
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He meant historically, tomatoes are native to South America before being brought everywhere else. So ie a Sicilian getting angry about not doing some red sauce pasta dish due to feeling this is their heritage original dish and they have patent on the proper procedure... it depends how far back in time you look.

Same ie potatoes in eastern Europe, a base in many many 'traditional' dishes. Yes if we look maybe 10 generations back, not so much for say 30 generations

Exactly. Use of red sauce in Italian cuisine is what, if it were invented today, we would call "Ibero-Italian fusion cuisine"; and the Spanish and Portuguese red sauces were developed after their early exploration of the Americas.

So much of creativity is the result of mixing diverse elements in unique ways. And it's especially rich to rant about "purity" or cultural "ownership" regarding something that is fundamentally the result of such a fusion.

EDIT: Speaking of which, if you haven't tried pasta or pizza with a Portuguese pepper-tomato sauce, you're missing out.

> it expands when freshly cooked but not when cool.

Make noodle soup and let it sit in the fridge for a week. It will expand.

Yeah but "let sit in fridge for a week" is probably not a great instruction in the middle of an easy weeknight dinner.
I agree that people need to learn to combine them (add a little butter, too!). I like both variations, honestly. With most things, it's not either or, and there are different taste profiles. It's like variations on pizza where the sauce is added last.
Two related tips while on the subject:

1) Salt your pasta water! Pasta is meant to be cooked in salty water that, according and excellently-put by Samin Nosrat (Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat) - "is reminiscent of the sea".

2) Save and use a splash of ("dirty") pasta water - aka the water the pasta was just cooked in - when you're tossing the pasta with the sauce. The water is filled with delightful liquified starch from the pasta, and it helps the sauce coat the pasta more thoroughly.

> "is reminiscent of the sea"

Had lots of funny moments in my life relating to salting pasta water. Almost all the people I know put like two pinches of salt into the water. Which causes them to look at me like I'm a psycho when I pour salt in for almost a full second, straight out of the container.

I can +1 both of your tips, I follow them both since I learned to cook and they're a (small but effective) game-changer.

For our big pasta pot, I put in a literal handful.
I can try to measure the amount I put in, but I'd guess it would be pretty close to a handful, yeah.
I agree it's kind of absurd to "salt" your pasta water with a pinch of salt (you're doing nothing!), but for me it's a lot more efficient to let the sauce to have the saltiness than to waste handfuls of salt going into water that I'm going to dump out.

INB4, "save your pasta water." I don't have a big kitchen or freezer, a pot full of water is a giant waste of space for me.

Most people just dip a coffee mug in the pasta just before they drain it to keep some water back. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone freezing pasta water.

As for "salty water vs. salty sauce", the better way from a culinary perspective is both. Over salting one thing to compensate for another thing often leads to uneven flavor; if everything is salted roughly appropriately it all kinda comes together without any extra effort. I suggest trying it, hell maybe even do an A/B test. It's subtle, but salt penetrating the pasta during cooking makes it taste that much better.

The thing about saving pasta water is about not throwing it all away when draining the pasta - just keeping a little back to toss in with the pasta and the sauce. It's not saving it for later.
Boil the water to evaporation and recover the salt!

disclaimer: it might be /slightly/ energy inefficient.

But salt your water, salting the sauce is just not the same.

The reason to salt the water is not to add saltiness to the pasta but to raise the water’s boiling point.
it's really not, it doesn't change the boiling point any sort of meaningfully.
- Lots of salt in the sauce means you'll have very salty sauce with undersalted pasta. It might work out fine if the sauce coats really well, but will still be slightly different.

- Ingredients cook differently when salted. Not sure about pasta specifically: I _think_ I can taste a difference between pasta cooked in salted water and pasta salted after being cooked, but I'm not certain.

- Definitely don't keep pasta water around, it's just for the sauce you're currently making

This is missing the forest for the trees. The point is not to make restaurant quality pasta and sauce, it's to not have to buy salt from the store every week. It's wasteful for little benefit.

I can't ever say I've felt like cooking pasta without salt is "under salted." Is it as savory and delicious as what I'd buy at a restaurant? No - but having done it like that in the past I just think the benefits are marginal for how much you waste.

I wouldn't say it's "forest for the trees", but I see the point that it's a choice of trade-offs.

I make pasta _very_ often, I love it and want it to be as good as it possibly can, so I'm very happy optimising for taste. FWIW I use a tablespoon of salt per portion, and get a 1.3kg pack of salt every few months: hardly a huge waste!

About as salty as the sea is also my rule of thumb (of course how salty is the sea you are familiar with varies :) )
Unless you really love salt, you want much less salinity in pasta than the sea (1-2% for pasta, 3.5% in the sea). Kenji Alt-Lopez says that you want your pasta water "as salty as you remember the sea is", not as salty as the sea actually is because it's way too much!
Maybe it is not exactly as salty as the sea :)
If you’ve ever been at sea and tried to use seawater to cook pasta, you’ll realize that it’s too much salt. 1:1 seawater to fresh water turns out perfect (and saves your fresh water).
Some more pasta water insights:

- A good ratio of salt/water is one tablespoon per litre (or gallon). Reduce if the sauce is going to be very salty already (eg carbonara). We're talking kosher salt here (specifically Diamon Crystal), if using table salt it's probably going to be half of that: salt density varies a lot depending on the type.

- Cook your pasta is _as little_ water as possible. For some reason there's some myth that you want to cook pasta in a large volume of water: that's BS. What makes pasta water "liquid gold" is the starch that comes from the pasta, you want that as concentrated as possible.

Oh god please don't to 1 TB of salt per gallon you need way more. I would do 4TB because although it's more than 1% salt it's easy to remember and close enough. As long as you stay less than 2% you're probably good for average salt tolerance.
I think he meant ‘quart’ rather than ‘gallon’ because the first reference is for ‘litre’
Sorry yes! As cossatot points out in the sibling comment, I meant quart. Not used to american metrics.
+1 to the as little water as possible tip, that's worked well for me. The emulsifying properties transmit flavors really well, I like to infuse a tiny bit of oil to stir in.
A good ratio of salt/water is one tablespoon per litre (or gallon)

A gallon is 3.5-4 litres. This doesn't seem right.

Cook your pasta is _as little_ water as possible.

This advice is worthless without some baseline like g of pasta to l water or how much water to cover your pasta with. You should cook your pasta in a large volume of water so the water will still be hot when you add the pasta and the pasta will be cooked as quickly as possible. Too little water and you risk the pasta sticking to itself as well. All this in mind, properly cooked pasta with diluted pasta water is a better outcome than starchy pasta water with pasta that has an odd texture. Maybe that last bit is personal preference, but when eating pasta, the first thing I notice is the texture of the pasta, not the starchiness of the pasta water. Hell, maybe we're thinking about the same amount of water, and you've just seen people try to cook with comically large amounts, I dunno.

I usually cook for two, 200g of pasta into 1 liter of water. And a teaspoon of salt.
What does salting your pasta water do, other than aligning with how it was "meant to be"? I've never noticed a difference, but also didn't salt it that extensively, and this was years ago.
You need to salt it enough that the pasta itself becomes salty. So the sauce you use doesn't have to have much salt, a pinch or two, and the pasta carries the saltiness instead.
Without salt, the pasta tastes plain. You can't really make up for it by salting the sauce more, the pasta carries it better.

And in dishes with less salt, you'd normally salt the pasta and not the sauce.

Ah OK, so the same reason I use salt elsewhere - I thought it might affect the cooking process somehow.

Any idea why the pasta carries it better? I usually add it to the sauce, the idea being both that I need to use less salt (healthier), and that it interacts with the herbs I added to the sauce.

It makes the pasta salty. It's not just pasta - almost any dish will be better if you salt/season as you go instead of adding it on top at the end
Also the water will boil at a higher temperature. I wonder if this affects the texture of the pasta. I suppose it will cook somewhat faster.
In college I got into an argument about this, believing this was the primary reason to salt the water. I was wrong -- at best it raises the boiling temp by 2F which is negligible.
Yeah, I used to think that too, but later I suspected it was actually as you say.
In addition to flavoring, it helps the pasta not stick together when you're boiling it. Add a small amount of olive oil as extra help for that
> Add a small amount of olive oil as extra help for that

It really doesn't. Oil doesn't mix with water. The only thing it does is oiling your pasta when you drain the water, which prevents the sauce from sticking correctly.

Pasta naturally don't stick together if you use a pot large enough, with enough water. And even then it doesn't stick, I honestly don't know how people make their pasta stick.

> with enough water.

that's another secret to making pasta: abundant water, not just barely covering it.

Cheap pans. Thin-walled that doesn't distribute heat evenly. So hot spots burn the pasta to the walls.

Secondly, not stirring at all. Boiling will do some circulation, but you have to keep some amount of stirring to prevent a small sticking turn into a burned to the pan problem.

1a) Salt your water when it reaches boiling temperature, then put pasta in it.
Not sure who said it, but I've had the advice "enough salt to scare your guests" in my head for years. Adding the salt after the water boils is also very, very satisfying.
Pasta water should be "as salty as tears."
The following is well known by Italians, but apparently not the rest of the world so I'll post here. I'll use italian names whenever I don't know the english ones so you can search them and make a cool impression on friends. This is the base of any tomato based sauce:

1. Choose your soffritto base. Onion or garlic are fine, more exotic variations include scalogno or porro.

2. Choose your tomato. Canned, fresh, whatever, just keep in mind that fresh ones may need longer cooking times. As for canned, check that they contain no seasoning at all!

3. Choose your grease. Oil or butter are fine, the standard is olive oil though. It may be hard to find proper olive oil outside of Italy I'm told.

4. Start cooking. Put your oil in a large pan, enough to contain all the pasta you plan to use afterwards. Not too much oil: just enough to cover the pan with a thin layer. Don't start heating the pan.

5. Cut your onion or whatever in small pieces and add them to the oil. Now turn on the heat at a reasonable level. Not too high but not low. Don't touch the onion!

6. When the onion looks a bit browny (not dark brown), add the tomato and lower at minimum the heat. If you have a thermometer, ideally you don't want to cross 60 degrees celsius over all the cooking period. This period can vary between 10 minutes and 60 minutes, it gives different tastes (all good) to the sauce. If you opt for the shortest time, go back at step 5 and at the same time start the next step.

7. Put 1l of water for every 100g of pasta in a pot. Add salt. With experience you'll get the right amount, usually I use about a small fist for two people (160-200g). Heat up the water and wait until boiling.

8. Drop the pasta in the water. Start a chronometer. Almost immediately mix it or otherwise it will stick. Wait a couple of minutes and mix again.

9. Meanwhile the sauce will start bubbling and, depending on your kitchen, you may need to mix it. If you see large discrepancies in texture, definitely mix. Otherwise don't. If it becomes too dry, add some water from the cooking pasta to the sauce.

10. When the chronometer is at cooking_time_on_pasta_packaging - 2 minutes, take a glass of water and fill it with water from the pasta pot. Dry the pasta, and put it in the pan with the sauce. Make the heat level for the pan a bit higher.

11. Cook it until "al dente", that is still a bit hard at the inside, but not completely. If the sauce dries too much (it should, if not turn the heat higher), add the water you kept in the glass. This step is where science stops and art begins: you need to calibrate your taste to your desired results and in turn calibrate water and heating. During all this step, mix your pasta in the same direction continuously. This is called "risottatura". Taste the pasta while cooking often.

11. Take everything off the fire, serve, add parmisan.

Edit: look at maccard comment for water and salt because I don't recall the right quantities. After a while you go by eye.

Edit 2: preventing more comments on oil, that is merely my very limited experience and I'd say, as a rule of thumb (not incontrovertible truth), that if you like your oil alone with bread it is a good oil.

This is the basic: many variations are possible, like heating oil before putting in the onion, onion cooking temperature, adding spices (but the only one I really like added is pepper). Also risottatura times can vary: some recipes are so extreme as cooking the raw pasta directly in the sauce, but unless you're making those specific recipes this is not recommended. A good time is 4 minutes, also 1 is good, if you want you can skip risottatura but at least do a copule of turns to pasta with sauce to mix everything together.
I have cooked the past directly in the sauce quite a few times. It tastes way better, but it takes way longer, so I don't bother much :)
I can't remember the specific recipe name, but putting uncooked pasta directly in the sauce is a thing you can do (well, you can do anything, as long as you make it taste good). But if unsure, mine is pretty close to the average recipe people do in their home.

Personally, I prefer cooking first for 5-6 minutes and then putting it in the sauce. Just my personal preference of course.

This post is wrong in many areas,

> Canned, fresh, whatever, just keep in mind that fresh ones may need longer cooking times.

Unless you know you've got _excellent_ fresh tomatoes, canned ones will win.

> Oil or butter are fine

Cooking your onion in butter is going to give a very very different result to using oil. Personally speaking, not one I would recommend.

> It may be hard to find proper olive oil outside of Italy I'm told.

High quality dop/docg olive oil is readily available all over the world, and there are plenty of places all around the mediterranean that have olive oil as good as Italian oil.

> Put 1l of water for every 100g of pasta in a pot. Add salt.

This is way too much water. serious eats[0] has an excellent article that is well worth reading if you care about pasta. You also should give an indication of how much salt to use - it's way way way more than you think it is. Like, tablespoon of salt per litre of water salty.

[0] https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-cook-pasta-salt-water-boi...

I disagree about tomatoes, you're right that to have a difference in taste of tomato alone you need very good tomatoes, but I was assuming the good taste of all the ingredients used. Anyway, using fresh tomatoes, especially if small, changes a dish completely because of its texture.

About oil it's clear, I think, if not sorry, that that is my experience, and as such should be interpreted. If you have good oil, all is good. I like to use butter, it's not standard but it's used. Of course you need less butter than the same amount of oil you'd use.

As for water/salt, you may be right and I will update my comment. I go by eye because I'm accustomed to the right quantities (or I taste the water for salt) so I was going by memory.

Again on butter: historically it was used in the north of Italy a lot, especially in the mountains, where oil wasn't available. My father didn't know what oil was when he was a boy. It was used in the center and south of Italy before it spread to everywhere. Today you will almost always find oil used, but I think it's an interesting variation. You can also do a split of oil and butter.
Roughly the dividing line between use of oil vs. butter (or lard) in traditional regional cuisine was slightly north of Bologna, until relatively recent times (I would say until post 2nd world war).

South, oil.

North, butter.

My grandmother (from Parma) firmly believed that olive oil was to be used uncooked for salads and similar.

JFYI:

https://www.cittadellolio.it/2017/06/15/olio-cucina-4-secoli...

> but I was assuming the good taste of all the ingredients used.

In that case your entire post can be replaced with "use high quality ingredients, cook them".

> Anyway, using fresh tomatoes, especially if small, changes a dish completely because of its texture.

The texture is different, but "fresh" tomatoes that are readily available to most people even in season from their greengrocers are a poor substitue for even supermarket tinned tomatoes. My experience in Italy (and france/spain/croatia) is that excellent stuff is _available_, but it's not necessary "just" to use italian tomatoes - there's plenty of awful tomatoes available, and a large amount of the high quality tomatoes that _are_ grown in italy are canned and available outside italy; again DOCG San Marzano Tinned Tomatoes are available in supermarkets here in the UK.

> About oil it's clear, I think, if not sorry, that that is my experience, and as such should be interpreted.

It _really_ didn't come across as that to me, it came

beware of labels, because they can sometimes mislead. A whole lot of reports of fraudulent italian products exist (another thing we italians do great is fraud). Many things labeled as X DOC, DOP, DOCG don't necessarily equal high quality. Anyway, I sometimes buy Spain grown tomatoes and they're not that bad.

Another point: I don't think my whole comment can be reduced to the quality of ingredients. Of course better ingredient better your plate, but the process is important. Take good quality ingredients and mix everything in a pot, you don't get a good pasta (specific recipies excluded, general rule of thumb)

>> Canned, fresh, whatever, just keep in mind that fresh ones may need longer cooking times. > > Unless you know you've got _excellent_ fresh tomatoes, canned ones will win.

I would agree on this one. I live in France, so not that far from Italy, and our fresh tomatoes suck compared to Italian fresh tomatoes. Italian cuisine use simple products with few transformations because their products are amazing. If I try to do something as basic as tomato-mozzarella at home, it'll never be as good as the same Italian recipe because our tomatoes don't grow in the same weather.

Italian cuisine is very hard to make at home as well as they do it because of the quality of their raw products.

In this case yes, canned is better. Also longer cooking times. A trick for canned products is checking the indications of when they were harvested, for Italian products you have letters for the year of production, I bet there are similar rules in other countries as well. Better to get tomatoes harvested in summer and not too long ago
>> > It may be hard to find proper olive oil outside of Italy I'm told.

> High quality dop/docg olive oil is readily available all over the world, and there are plenty of places all around the mediterranean that have olive oil as good as Italian oil.

There's a whole rabbit hole you can go down here. It's not clear cut AFAICT.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil_regulation_and_adult...

Nowhere in that link does it say that it only happens on exports. It's also true of pretty much any product, e.g. wine [0], parmesan [1], champagne [2] .

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_fraud#Examples

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccahughes/2022/06/02/cheese...

[2] https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2022/12/e2m-of-fake-champa...

I'm not saying it only happens on exports, nor am I arguing it happens with only olive oil. I'm responding directly to your claim that "high quality dop/docg olive oil is readily available all over the world."

It may be available, but readily available seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It can be deceptively difficult to obtain.

> It's reliably reported that 80% of the Italian olive oil on the market is fraudulent.[0]

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2016/02/10/the...

All of those are true but >It may be hard to find proper olive oil outside of Italy I'm told.

Spanish and Greeks have nothing to be shy about here.

It wasn't meant as a criticism for other countries oil, I just am not aware of them and I haven't heard of them. If you like your oil with bread alone, the oil is a good oil.
> Spanish and Greeks

Portugal as well.

and the secret spice of any sauce is ... sugar. yes, I'm very sorry. thank me later
Someone introduced me to making red sauce by basically just cooking tomatoes for as much time as I have, and it's now my go-to red sauce. Really amazing how good just well-cooked tomatoes are. https://www.seriouseats.com/frankies-tomato-sauce-recipe
+1 just for the link to Serious Eats.

If you have a recipe in mind to make, look it up on Serious Eats. Their MO is to give you ideas on how to level up each recipe (compared to food network or similar) and explain the principles behind the techniques.

And really do look them up. In my experience they've completely lost the SEO game, so SRPs are not a reliable entry point to their (wealth of) content.
Well that should also be how they make tomato sauce you buy in the store, it's just filtered so you don't get seeds and large pieces of peel in it.
You can reduce the olive oil/salt for a lower-calorie/sodium version which is good for weight loss/high blood pressure
And if you're making a red sauce, simmer a little anchovy paste or a couple anchovies (till they melt down) first with bay leaf, olive oil, and garlic before adding anything else into the pot. Broken up kalamata olives, basil, and onion are good around that point/shortly after too.

And when you add in the tomato puree (or your preference), add a tiny bit of sugar. If the sauce looks like it has a sheen, it's ruined. Just a tiny amount will do.

Do this and your sauce will taste 10 times better. Not a fan of anchovies, but you won't even be able to tell.

Relatedly, I spent far too long cooking my pizza sauce, treating it like other red sauces.

You can just mix tomato sauce, oregano, salt, and pepper, then slap it on the pie. It cooks in the oven. No need to pre-cook it.

[EDIT] unless you're gonna use it for dipping. There's a reason places have a separate "marinara", often, for that purpose. Even giving your pizza sauce a quick simmer will make it a lot better for dipping. Raw pizza sauce is... palatable, but not great, for dipping.

> Unlike rice, it's fine to "soak" pasta in the sauce

Risotto would like a word.

You still don't soak risotto, you keep the liquid content within limits.

Also different rices.

Heat your plates (e.g. with the cooking water) and rub dry to prevent your your delicious meal get cold too soon. This is of course not only good for pasta.
> One trick is to crush the garlic and let the oil it's in carry the flavor.

I usually sauté garlic in oil separately, discard the garlic and then use the oil as a sort of super garlic flavor concentrate.

I used to believe the actual ingredients were ~80% of the puzzle of cooking. I now believe they're closer to ~20% for most cases. The process you follow is way more important than anything else.

Just take a sweet onion for instance. The difference 2-3 minutes makes in a hot pan is incredible. If you simply chopped it up and threw it directly into whatever, you will wind up with something that tastes substantially less flavorful.

Staying warm.

In the winter, I used to stay warm by turning up the thermostat. Then I discovered (via HN) the Low-Tech Magazine article, "Insulation: first the body, then the home." [0] The article argued that it's much more efficient to focus on heating yourself rather than your whole living space.

I invested in high-quality wool clothes that I wear in layers and warm slippers. Now, I keep my home about 5 degrees F cooler than I used to for the same comfort, and it's a big reduction in oil and wood consumption for home heat.

[0] https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/02/body-insulation-ther...

I don't like wearing big layers of clothing. I like being in a very light t-shirt.

I'm happy to pay the extra cost to heat the room I'm in with a space heater in the winter time.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just offer my perspective. I felt the same way. But after a couple of months of just putting up with it, I found I got used to it, and it saves some money & spends less fuel. Now I wear sweaters around the house all the time and it doesn't bother me anymore.
You're right and I've done the same. But changing human behavior is enormously difficult, especially when it relies strictly on individual decisions. Just look at how many people rationally know what to do to get healthier, yet are unable to do so. We need to stop pretending humans are computers that just need better information to make better decisions. We're emotional beings even more than we are rational ones.
me too, also sometimes i can’t seem to heat up in layers. So I drink hot tea instead
I'm the same way, but wool really is an awesome fabric for clothes wrt to temp regulation.

My favorite t-shirt is now a lightweight filson 100% wool shirt that is just as comfortable by itself at 80 deg as it is under a button up shirt at 30 deg.

And doesn't get cold when wet like cotton does.

It really does fit the "life changing" topic if you've never tried it.

It’s so itchy though.
Pre-Merino, wool was quite itchy. I wonder if you are thinking of "old" wool. Modern merino is some very soft stuff.

> Merino wool is able to ditch the itch thanks to its fiber's smaller diameter, or being “finer”. These fibers are more flexible and softly bend when pressed against the skin and, therefore, don't itch like other wool.

https://www.smartwool.com/discover/why-merino-wool/merino-wo...

Could be. Wool is too cruel for my taste anyway so I abstain from it.
No could be about it. Merino wool is not itchy.

There are other wools like possum wool with similar properties that are less ambiguous in terms of ethics. Merino can be ethically sourced.

If usage of animal products is a concern, that seems hardly relevent to a question of the feel of the material. I applaud the concern, just find the "could be" to be glib and/or ignorant

Merino is just as itchy to me as any other wool, I can't wear any of it touching my skin. Drives me nuts.
it's a big reduction in oil and wood consumption for home heat

I'm happy to pay the extra cost

As an aside, we've got the externalities of climate change all wrong. Oil is a non renewable resource. We can't just give the planet a bunch of money and have it produce more oil for us to burn when we're uncomfortable. This cost is not really borne by you; it'll be borne by future generations.

I would assume the poster already knows it. Is a matter of wanting something and do it because I can.

It goes against common sense but is human nature.

Which is precisely why government intervention is required to address this problem. Individuals will make decisions that are short sighted, self-centered and potentially not in the best interest of the planet.

I don't fault them for it, I'm guilty of it in some situations.

It's a hard balancing effort. On one hand, humans can't be counted on to be rational actors, especially in terms of long-term benefit. On the other hand, the system is so complex it may not be able to be managed well at the large government level.
No, it actually makes sense: burn all the oil now, to keep yourself warm in winter, and the future generations will be kept warm by the fact that climate change raises temperatures, so there are no winters anymore :-D
A large part of the population is like this. Whining at and shaming them is not going to get the result you want.

If you care about climate change, you should be advocating for completely green electricity generation, and carbon-neutral synthetic fuels. That would completely solve the fundamental problem.

Our society is fundamentally based on energy, and people like to use energy towards things that give them comfort. Taking away comfort is going to be a "nope" for most people.

> A large part of the population is like this. Whining at and shaming them is not going to get the result you want.

It's unfortunate, but it does appear to have the opposite effect on some section of the populace. They just get pissed off and consume more out of spite. One thing to temper that is to massively tax (over-) consumption. Use taxes tend to be regressive, so to avoid targeting the poor, there needs to be some thought put into the tax structure.

If one reads my comment and construes it as whining and shaming, I don't think we're dealing with reasonable people. The problem is that conservative politicians like MTG make this ID pol issue, vis a vis her comments about Pete Buttigieg and EVs being emasculating. Because of these influences, they see any attempt to curb fossil fuel use as a personal attack, even if it isn't.
> The problem is that [politics]

If politics is the issue, let's not start about politics and partisanship? I don't know much about USA politics but it seems to me that this automatically turns your comment into something to ignore and dismiss for precisely half your population, as they're part of the party you're blaming as a whole (which might or might not be a fair thing to do).

It's not just politics, and I did specifically mention the attempt to make this about ID politics. In politics, there's discussion, there's give and take, OK. But when one uses their power from the top down to convince their constituency: using fossil fuels is a part of who you are, and they are trying to take a piece of your identity away from you, then it becomes something different.
When one decides to pass over clearly defined technical solutions that actually solve the problem, and instead decide to shame those who live differently than them, perhaps that individual isn't a bastion of reasonableness themselves.

Clean energy production is an everyone problem. I'd encourage not letting politicians pit you against other parts of the population, which is just an emotionally satisfying substitute to actually addressing fundamental problems.

It's not an either option though. If one can't have 100% clean energy right now, spending a lot more of non-renewable energy resources just because "I like to be in a t-shirt while it's -20C outside" doesn't sound very reasonable.

You can both work with the current reality, where energy produced by non-renewable means should be used with more thought while advocating for a better solution for the future so you can have your luxury of heating the house to 25C if you so wish and can afford to...

I agree on not letting politicians pit one against other parts of the population, I also believe that people should take responsibility and be mindful of the luxuries they want and what's the cost to the general society, not only that you can afford to do it even though it's detrimental to others.

> It's not an either option though.

Although I agree that it isn't, in practicality most people do actually think that way, and have room in their heads for only one approach to a given problem.

And many people, for whatever reason, tend to prefer "solutions" that involve hating on some other part of the population. Politicians use this to great effect to avoid actually addressing problems.

This is the reason I so strongly advocate for focusing on fundamentals instead of the limited-return shame-based approaches.

> massively tax (over-) consumption.

And thus create a Veblen good, or a political status good.

Big trucks are a status symbol in part because they are gas guzzlers.

And even stronger, everyone is and should be like this. Everything takes energy and I bet almost everything in your house is technically unnecessary and for your comfort. Trying to police all uses of energy into good/bad is just a reflection of your own preferences of the things you can personally live without without too much of a quality of life drop.
If everyone gets to decide and spend to their own independent value system, can you agree that externalities should at least be priced in?
We price in externalities all the time. A lot of the time it's priced in as the cost of complying with government regulation, like food safety and labeling. Other times it's priced in the other direction, like subsidies for green energy or particular crops (corn/ethanol). We just don't necessarily price them appropriately, or in a way that some people may think is accurate, but we certainly don't ignore the concept of externalities.
Absolutely. I wasn’t making case that we are always ignoring them. But I think there are some subset of cases where we don’t price them in proportionally to consumption. One example apropos to this thread is pricing in atmospheric carbon (or the externalities of extracting/protecting those resources). Based on your reply, I’m assuming you think regulation is a suitable way pricing in externalities?
Absolutely 100%!
What are the better mechanisms to do so in your opinion?
You are of course right shaming is not going to help.

> completely green electricity generation

The problem with green electricity is that there is no such thing as green electricity.

The wind turbines? Massive blocks of concrete in the ground, heavy machinery to put it in, lifespan not so great. Solar? Destabilizes the grid, takes plenty of minerals to produce, do you know what happens with solar panels after their lifespan?

The only "green" electricity is one that isn't even produced to begin with.

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In this context, "green" means carbon-neutral, which (the lack of neutrality) is generally accepted as the dominating "bad" factor with how humanity harnesses energy today. Anything else is goalpost moving. But I'll entertain the goalpost moving nonetheless.

> The wind turbines? Massive blocks of concrete in the ground, heavy machinery to put it in, lifespan not so great. Solar? Destabilizes the grid, takes plenty of minerals to produce, do you know what happens with solar panels after their lifespan?

These are all things that can be recycled given the correct application of energy. Not profitably as a standalone enterprise of course, but energetically positive in comparison to what a given installation produces in its lifetime. Therefore the added cost can be baked into the final cost of the energy produced.

> The only "green" electricity is one that isn't even produced to begin with.

Most of us don't care for your extreme version of "green", so I'll point back to my original comment. You're not going to be able to convince people to willingly give up comfort, so focus on reducing the impacts of people deciding to live that way. "Much better" is worse than "perfect", but "much better" is still better than what we're doing today. You're not going to get "perfect" unless humanity is wiped out completely.

One time build and destruction costs are also present in fossil fuel power generation.

Thing is with wind and solar, that’s the total harm done. When averaged out over the MWh they produce, you realise that in comparison to coal, oil or gas based power their CO2 impact is utterly negligible.

Is there more that can be done to reduce it further? Sure.

But saying because there is some lifecycle CO2 in their usage means they should be considered harmful is like saying cycling to work is harmful just like taking a helicopter, because rubber tyres aren’t entirely environmentally friendly. It’s honestly that absurd a comparison.

I think you're strawmanning a little.

I'm in no way advocating for burning coal/oil/gas. I'm advocating for reduction.

If we were looking for an alternative, how is total (incl build/destruction) CO2 impact of wind/solar/etc compared to nuclear energy?

Or working on Fusion :-)

You know without any energy generation limitations, I once calculated that we could grow enough food to feed the world in less than 10000 skyscraper farms and return all those millions of hectares of cropland, pastures and plantations that we have terraformed over thousands of years to nature.

> We can't just give the planet a bunch of money and have it produce more oil for us to burn when we're uncomfortable

Yes, but we can try to do something about those "Green" activists who prevent the proliferation of the cleanest power on Earth: nuclear energy. Look at what did they do to Germany!

Green activists are the only reason we have any green energy at all.
Well, if it weren't for green activists, we'd probably be exclusively using nuclear power at this point, so we'd be in a much better spot for green energy
The coal and oil industries have been quietly bankrolling anti-nuclear efforts for decades under the guise of safety. It's a prime example of astroturfing.
This I highly doubt. Especially when it comes to solar, for which there are many reasons to adopt apart from environmental concerns.
True or not, I would totally believe that the people who are so anti-nuclear they don't want any further research done into the subject are probably being funded by the fossil fuel industry.
Just a few links I gathered some time ago when discussing the related topic:

"Has Russia Been Financing Western Environmentalism?" (2022) [0]

"Putin Is Funding Green Groups to Discredit Natural Gas Fracking" (2017) [1]

"German green group branded a Russian ‘puppet’ over Nord Stream II gas pipeline" (2021) [2]

[0]: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/18330/russia-funding-envi...

[1]: https://www.newsweek.com/putin-funding-green-groups-discredi...

[2]: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/german-green-group-brande...

> Look at what did they do to Germany!

Increased low carbon energy by more than the first twelve years of the messmer plan in spite of being betrayed by the SDR immediately and then having the conservatives cut funding further?

No, fearmongering Germany into shutting down the whole nuclear energy industry. Just compare them to France?
France had nothing to do with shutting down Energywende for the betternpart of a decade and neither did environmentalists.
That is, of course, not true:

"The anti-nuclear movement was one of the key driving factors behind the foundation of the Green Party (Bündnis 90/Die Grünen) in 1980." [0]

[0]: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/history-behind-ge...

Doesn't say anything about Gazprom and their employee schroder being greens.
I don't think it's consumer's duty to factor in that future cost into their behavior. This should be factored into the current price of the resource by businesses or governments.

It's not customer's duty to pay more than they are asked, either in money or in inconvenience.

But I tend to think of my fellow beings as citizens rather than consumers. And I do think it is a citizen's duty to be considerate of their fellow and citizens, current and future.
It's a bit like you'd say: I prefer to think about my fellow beings as mammals not consumers. They sure are but that's beside the point.

Citizen has no meaning in context of economy (except for taxation). So using it in context of economic activity mixes up two unrelated things.

Bad actors in the economy tend to exploit such mix ups to shift the burden away from them.

Read up on introduction and promotion of the concept of individual carbon footprint. Or the reality of recycling which was promoted as alternative to producers of plastic being directly responsible for introducing plastic into the environment.

>As an aside, we've got the externalities of climate change all wrong. Oil is a non renewable resource. We can't just give the planet a bunch of money and have it produce more oil for us to burn when we're uncomfortable. This cost is not really borne by you; it'll be borne by future generations.

What's the point of resources if they're not consumed? If we follow your advice to its logical conclusion, then we'd have oils that are consumed by nobody, because every generation doesn't want to consume it for fear of "cost [...] borne by future generations".

>What's the point of resources if they're not consumed?

Just to add some nuance, this seems to imply everyone has the same environmental psychology. There are lots of (often competing) perspectives. If you have a utilitarian environmental psychology, you may think resources are there to be consumed for human benefit. If you instead have a stewardship environmental psychology, you may feel its your duty to protect those resources from being pilfered.

Stephen Kellert has a good description of these different perspectives in "The Biological Basis for Human Values of Nature". Some of his categories include: utilitarian, naturalistic, ecologistic-scientific, aesthetic, symbolic, humanistic, moralistic, dominionistic, and negativistic. Other researchers define the human-environment interactions differently. For example, [1] defines them in terms of master, apathy, steward, partner, participant, and user. So it's not hard to see why people's thoughts differ on this issue. Like with most human value systems, it's not likely that there is a singular "right" perspective.

[1] https://www.academia.edu/download/53480185/Yoshida_et_al._20...

If we follow your advice to its logical conclusion, then we'd have oils that are consumed by nobody

That's not really the logical conclusion of my advice. In actuality, there's a lot of possibilities between "I'm the one buying it, so I'm the only one dealing with the consequences" and "Not use any oil at all". But I get it, it's easier to argue against strawmen.

>But I get it, it's easier to argue against strawmen.

It's also easier to feel smug and accuse people of strawmanning when you're engaging in motte and bailey :^)

Accusations of fallacy aside, what is your actual argument then? That there's some non-zero harm inflicted on future generations when we consume fossil fuels, because they won't be able to use them anymore? That would seem like the motte argument, because it's trivially true, but what does this translate in terms of how we should behave? A cost of $0.000001 would be trivially easy to defend, but also means I can turn my thermostat to 78F guilt free.

You also argue that we've "we've got the externalities of climate change all wrong", implying that the future generations not being able to use fossil fuels is somehow worse than people being displaced by climate change today. What is your basis for that?

We have enough uranium to last for millions of years at current consumption levels, and nuclear energy is nearly completely CO2-free. Electric heating is a thing. I don't think we need to worry about this.

(Using oil for heating is outrageous, of course; as Mendeleev have said, it is exactly the same as heating your fireplace with money bills).

Which currency is the best heat source? I think some of the newer ones might give you cancer.
Fossil fuel heat generation is an order of magnitude cheaper per unit than electric in many geographic areas.
> We have enough uranium to last for millions of years at current consumption levels

this is because we don't use very much nuclear power. There is currently enough known uranium reserves to provide 2 years of global energy production at current rates.

See "closed nuclear cycle" and breeder reactors.
That's one to two hundred years depening on if you include inferred resource, and for supplying under 3% of the energy. Meeting net zero targets with PWRs would run out in well under a decade, perhaps not even a single fuel load.
Well, PWRs are dead end, we need breeders.
So if we just do this thing that doesn't work and would be more expensive as the other thing that's too expensive and release many EBq of Kr-85, H3 and probably various other fission products we can avoid doing the thing that's currently working and is dirt cheap.
While our oil supply is not part infinite, it should still last many decades/centuries more, by which time we will hopefully have alternatives. Climate change is a larger risk than running out
Among our alternatives: wear warmer clothes.
Or through the magic of south facing windows and proper insulation you can be nice and warm in the winter and with electric heating not even burn oil.
Do you need the oil more than OP and for what purposes?
Boo. A single day of any large company impacts the environment far more negatively than the most wasteful single human or large group of humans do in their lifetimes.

Moving the blame from corporations to the individual is how companies have avoided doing anything to combat climate change and only serves to make the individuals who do the blaming self righteous and the ones being blamed bad.

I didn't move anything.
No blame is being moved. Corporations behaving irresponsibly has no bearing on whether or not individuals should behave responsibly.

In fact, the person trying to shift blame here is you: by downplaying the smaller yet still significant role of individuals in a sustainable future.

False. Nothing I do has an impact on the planet at any scale. A company can make a change in an instant and have an immediate impact on the planet.
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My home isn’t heated with oil. Take your shitty generalizations elsewhere.
No, we got the technology all wrong.

We could easily have abundant nuclear energy so that “home heating” would be a non-issue and trivial cost.

Yeah but I don't like future generations, my dude. I like me. And so does everyone else. So I'd rather pillage the commons because if I do otherwise the commons won't be unpillaged. It'll just be pillaged by others.

Everyone's all "we must care about the environment" but then you ask them why Germany isn't reforesting (after razing the cities they built on old forests) and why Europe is deforesting at an accelerated rate and it's all this and that.

The commons is an interesting point. It was stable for a long time through very strong social and cultural norms. It was broken essentially by wealthy landowners taking slices of it and then using their oversized influence to change the law to support them. It suggests the root of the solution to any of this stuff is very much cultural and social.
I like going outside. I must go outside to walk my dog, get my mail and go to church — all of which are outside. I like shopping for groceries and eating out, which means that I must move from my car to the building. Given that I am going to be outdoors, it sure as heck makes sense to dress for the season and the weather.

Plus, y’know, winter clothes are the best clothes. Tweeds, woolens, gloves, coats, scarves, hats: all these are great!

I was amazed to find out that even in this air conditioned age we spend far more heating buildings than air conditioning them (four times as much, according to the first Google hit I just found). That means that it makes a lot more sense to dress warmly in the winter than lightly in the summer.

Yeah so I was like that, until the energy prices absolutely exploded here in UK. I realized that if we go like this we'll pay £600/month just in energy costs, and that's as much as our mortgage payment - and frankly that's insane. I turned our thermostat down, grumbled and put on a jumper and wooly trousers - that alone literally halved our bill to £300/month - still insane(considering last year we were paying £100/month even in winter with heating being on pretty much all the time), but managable.
I sweat a lot (medical problems), and have no body fat; so keeping warm is a real challenge. I can't wear much clothing.

"radiant IR" (red glowing elements) type heaters are wonderful tools for heating the body instead of the air.

You can still do this efficiently, for example my house thermostat is set to 65ish and I use a tiny space heater at half power (700ish watts) to have a small but nice warm corner without breaking the bank, probably.
I like eating chocolate and sleeping all day, but I also have responsibilities. One of my responsibilities is to not be wasteful. So I put on a sweater.

(But if you've got some kind of super-insulated house, then never mind.)

That's still better than keeping the whole house at 75F all winter.
For me the game changer was flannel. I never knew it was different than plaid until this year. Turns out it’s sufficiently warm and way more comfortable than heavier layers like hoodies because of how light it is.
Add moisture to the air also as it conducts heat better and the same temperature will "feel" warmer. (especially important in some climates more than others)
Is this the reason for infusions in sauna?
Sauna temperatures are higher than human body's.
I didn't know that. Good tip!
Based on the comments above, I think I should have specified that this works well for very cold places that get very dry air in the winter.
This is probably a bad advice - As it simultaneously makes cold air feel colder.

Also, I'm not sure if there is an easy way to actually increase humidity without reducing the temperature. From my experience, increasing humidity while keeping the overall temperature at the same time requires additional energy.

Also, less humid air may allow you to actually wear less cloths as it is more difficult for the air to get energy off your body.

I think is true for places that have moist air already. But for colder climates a house with central heating the air often gets drier (even outside) than the worst deserts on earth.

So, in that environment adding moisture makes the air warmer. (with proper heating of course)

Unless your air temperature is higher than your body temperature (37 deg C), won't higher humidity mean more of your heat is lost? This is why we call desert climates 'a dry heat' or 'a dry cold' in winter. Conversely, a 'damp cold' might not be that low a temperature, but you really feel it.
This was in context to someone in a house with proper heating, but still feeling cold.
I can't say I have experienced what you are describing. Proper heating means that the room temp is 18-23C, so less than 37C. I guess 23C would feel warmer in higher humidity (>50%), because it inhibits your body's ability to cool itself effectively via perspiration. But this would depend greatly on your physiology and level of activity. Is this the mechanism you are referring to? Anyway for me I like my house at 18C and 30% humidity.
My understanding is that dry cold air doesn't feel as cold either...

I learned from a swimming teacher "water transmits heat/cold 10 times faster than air", therefore a logical conclusion is that dry air is insulating more than moist air.

Heat and cold transfer in air happens, just take your shirt off, you feel the temperature change immediately. Go to a very, very cold climate with dry air, if there is no wind, it truly doesn't affect you that badly. Same with Arizona in the summer ("it's a dry heat" is a state motto, IIRC)

Sorry this is backwards isn't it? In air temperature of lets say 60*F the conduction would be away from your body into the air, wouldn't you want to reduce the conduction? I can say that we used to humidify our winter air throughout the house but it made it feel so much colder. Now we humidify our sleeping air only.
It depends, with super (I mean very, very dry air) you can have pockets of warmth just around the heat source. But add a little moisture and the whole room feels warm.

In my experience 60 is cold no matter what. But feeling cold at 70 degrees stinks.

In England or Ireland? Ya, damp all the time all winter. It just depends on the environment. (don't want anymore moisture in the air)

Perfect recipe for growing mold :)
Not where many people live. In winter here the air is so dry you need to run humidifiers or your skin starts to crack.
The issue is it doesn't work for people who tend to sweat easily.
That isn't true at all.

You simply need layers and good enough deodorant. A bit of experience helps as well - you learn how warm to keep your base layer after some time. If you sweat in non-standard places (like under breasts), spray deodorant might be your friend.

I personally deal with this because of hormones - I'm a female in my mid-40s, so I get to have hot flashes and night sweats during part of my cycle right now.

I'm one of the sweatiest people I've ever met. I've slowly gotten better at layering and how to use clothes for different situations, but I agree it's a big factor and there's some unwinnable combinations.

For instance, I've finally learned to embrace "long-john" style long underwear under my pants, but it's only possible because I'm working from home. They are amazing layers for warmth, but unlike additional shirts, hoodies, jackets, scarves, hats, long underwear can't be casually removed. You have to take off your shoes and your pants! So if (when) I was going into an office, I always made the choice to have cold legs during the commute but comfortable legs all day. Now I can wear them in the morning, take them off if the day warms up, and put them back on whenever the temp. drops again.

But overall I'll echo a few comments in here that some of the more expensive gear, even as base layers, really is better technology. And getting to know my body and my situational habits, it's been possible to figure out layering clothing that worked for me, but only because I was working in tech and felt like I had enough money to get it wrong a couple times... If I were still living on a student or even "average" budget, I would've been much shyer about trying some new $30 shirt just to see if it agreed with me.

What's your long johns situation? I haven't found anything that bridges the winter gap where I'm comfy outside and not boiling/sweating inside.
Have you tried genuine silk long johns? That's the gold standard for me.
sorry, late reply: REI sells a totally ok pair, i'm not even wearing silk ones. The trick for me is that in this era of remote work, I'm not required to be in places heated to the warmer end of room-temperature. And I can pretty casually take them off if/when the day warms up.
I have a jacket that has zippers under the armpits. :-)
Another thing that can really help with this is a hot water bottle. You can put it on your lap, or under your feet and it really helps you keep warm if you are sitting for long periods of time. Helps if you put a small blanket over your lap as well. Usually lasts for a couple of hours before you need to refresh the water in the bottle.
For the HN crowd: point your computer exhaust fan at your fingers or feet.
Especially if you've got a bulldozer!
Unfortunately the M1 runs a lot cooler than older models :(. Old Intel models would almost burn your fingers!
I was playing cyberpunk this winter with a 4090 at 4k RT on and all settings maxed. My desktop took the living room from around 50F to over 72F. My A/C turned on! It was genuinely insane
That rig probably can generate around 1kW of heat, just like average space heater. You have a very small living room if that alone can heat it up from 50F to 72F.
Between your thighs...max blood flow and contact area.
This completely fails for me. I will end up with freezing cold hands and a warm body. Put me in a 65f room and after an hour of being idle my hands will start to go numb from the cold.
Got a small heater (size of a small PC speaker) for 20 bucks on Amazon, most effective purchase I’ve made in recent memory, super effective for cold fingers and doesn’t even need to be on all the time
Which one did you get? I tried getting one at work a few years ago and all it did was feel like a dragon's breath on my face, and my hands got a bit of warmth
wolf gloves / thumbhole shirts, and of you are idle you can tuck hands under a blanket or chest pockets.
Wearing gloves and holding your hands inside your pockets while reading so you can save $10/month on your electricity bill seems pretty miserable.
The problem is that it isn't $10 a month. Not anymore with the current energy prices. At least here in UK the difference between 18C(65F) and 20C at home can be literally hundreds of pounds a month.
Gloves and pockets are pretty compfy
Have you tried wristers? They’re basically tubes for your upper hand, wrist and lower forearm, with a little slit for your thumb. By keeping the blood at the wrist warm they keep your hands much warmer than they’d otherwise be, while letting you retain full freedom of motion for your fingers. They’re even better than fingerless gloves in that regard.
Wristers (we call them "pulse-warmers" here) are AMAZING. My Grandmother-in-law spends her days knitting hundreds of these, and now we have multiple plastic bags full of fluffy multicolured pulse-warmers that we don't know what to do with.

If anyone her wants to pay the postage from NZ, I'll happily send them around the world for no cost :)

I might take you up on that offer :) How can one contact you?
Have you seen a doctor about this just to make sure you don't have circulation issues?

Alternatively, keep some fingerless gloves around - or learn to knit/crochet/sew and make some (they aren't all that complicated for something basic). For around the house, you could honestly convert some socks if you aren't worried about how they might look. I'd get some of the no-fray glue they sell at craft stores if you go this route. These are great when you are idle.

> Have you seen a doctor about this just to make sure you don't have circulation issues?

What can the doctor do about it?

Not a doctor, but I'd think that would depend entirely on what was causing it.
> Have you seen a doctor about this just to make sure you don't have circulation issues?

Yes, doctor said I have poor circulation in my extremities. Except she said that using Latin, so that was super helpful. /s

From what I've read, the body primarily measures core temp around the chest, so wearing lots of layers on the body can cause the extremities to get cold since the body goes "everything is warm enough, no need to even try and warm things up with extra blood flow!"

So paradoxically, wearing less clothes can help.

I live in the midwest and cold is normal for a chunk of the year, but one thing always worse than cold: wind. After college at some point I splurged on a North Face jacket with the wind protection bit and it was eye popping how much more tolerable being outside became. I always go for a nicer coat/jacket now -- the value brands at the department stores don't always have the right technology. Good outdoor gear is spendy, but lasts a very long time and is very effective.
I have a hard mountain down jacket from 25 years ago with wind protection that I wear when it is below freezing. Still works amazing.
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I live in New York and didn’t own a proper winter jacket until I was in my 30s. I always wore a warm jacket that in hindsight was more appropriate for the fall. I bought a Quartz jacket and it made being outside in the winter so much more fun and tolerable.
So much this. I got all my Marmot & North Face stuff years ago before they became trendy suburban clothing. The little things like reinforced knees or a bit of extra material in the back so you can bend over without wind exposure makes a huge difference when it's -20F. That stuff has been in constant use for 20 years and except for the gloves that finally gave up from being dunked in water and freezing on a daily basis, is still going strong.
There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad gear ;)
Wet-bulb temperatures above 30 C/85 F are pretty bad no matter what you're (not) wearing.
This is why I highly prefer living in colder countries. You can always wear better gear or light a fire.

But what do you do when you're spread-eagle naked in the shade and still sweating like a pig? That's not a place for humans =)

Talking about complying with things your parents said, but actually being annoyed by.

There is a saying where I live that wind is when the sheep don’t have curly hair anymore. And rain when the fish are swimming on your eye level.

In all seriousness though, it’s of course true.

For wind I think what matters is having a hard ish shell, knowing that can make price flexible. I have pretty old and cheap winter jacket that I ski in and it keeps me really warm.
It's almost like the cultures that have "always" lived in cold areas (nordic people, siberians, inuit, etc) knew what to do ... layer with natural fibers - keeping the "treated" side of the clothing facing the outside world :)
Any fleece under a wind breaker/shell is pretty simple warmth for most conditions
Electrically heated clothing is now becoming readily available, and I think it could have a big impact on home heating if people would come around to it. I'm able to keep my office much colder, but wear a heated vest. Why heat the whole room when I'm the only thing that wants to be warm in it? If the clothing was all integrated, in theory I could be kept at my ideal temperature at a nominal electricity cost.
Keeping my hands warm is a bigger problem.. especially when having to type on the computer..
My wife knits and made me some fingerless gloves, I'm guessing you could find something similar on eBay or Etsy. Highly recommended
I use both fingerless gloves and arm warmers to keep my hands warm.
Absolute best thing I've found has been silk glove liners, and then cutting the tips off to make them fingerless. For some reason almost all the fingerless gloves you can buy cover half of the finger, not 3/4 of the finger.
I tried this but they get frayed at the ends, so you end up looking like a hobo digging in the trash. Ended up with some compression/arthritis gloves and they are just the right size, sewn at the ends, reach up to the last digit. But unfortunately they are made of some fabric that tries to minimize heat retention. So they only help a bit. Probably could be paired with the normal wool fingerless gloves.

Another factor is to keep the material thin between the fingers or it affects typing. Wish I could design my own (sigh).

My desk is next to a huge window, and even with the heat on my hands get really cold. But then I got a heated desk pad / mousepad. I thought it was a gimmick, but I love this thing. In just a few minutes it warms up my hands and wrists and keeps both my keyboard and mouse at cozy temps.
Wow, I did not know these were a thing.

My main issue in the winter is my feet. (And I hate slippers.) Maybe I'll get one of these and put it under my desk.

Aw man, slippers are the best part of winter! Maybe you just haven't had nice ones. In addition to the usual furry/fuzzy slippers most people think of, I like to mix it up with "house shoes" (i.e.: shoes but ones that never go outside) like EVA Birkenstocks[0]. They're extremely light and the half-inch insulation they provide from the cooler ground makes a big difference for me.

[0] https://www.birkenstock.com/us/arizona-essentials/arizona-ev...

I managed to get some fairly thin gloves that worked well on laptop keyboards these past few months when ive been testing outside in negative celcius tempratures & snow (I work in mobile robotics, testing outside is common enough the company has camping chairs with umberellas etc for us)

something like these https://www.primark.com/en-gb/p/thinsulate-knitted-gloves-bl.... The particular ones I have also seem to work somewhat on touchscreens which is useful for the commute home

To people who may not live in colder climates: you can find one-size-fits-all stretchy gloves that look like this practically everywhere, but they aren't all useless like the ones you find everywhere. Thinsulate and other actually-good insulating tech can be surprisingly effective.
When you keep the core toasty your hands keep warm enough too. Especially if you are male.
Personally I find "wrist warmers" work well. I don't like fingerless gloves when typing since material between my fingers is annoying, but wrist warmers are like fingerless mits (no individual finger holes).
I have chronically cold hands (to the point that they're painful and interfere with typing), and in the last few years I've discovered that hands down the best way to warm my hands up is to warm my core up more. I have a big down puffer vest that I keep in my office and it's a lifesaver.

This works even when my hands are the only part of my body that feel cold. The body is effectively prioritizing keeping my core warm instead of the extremities, so adding insulation to the body has the trickle-down effect of warming the hands. On the other hand, trying to warm just the hands never feels like enough.

Very thin leather gloves are an absolute game changer. I've noticed that the sensation of my hands being cold is much more related to the external feeling of cold rather than their internal temperature. Thin leather gloves maintain your dexterity, you can operate touchscreens with them, and they eliminate the bite of cold air/surfaces on your bare hands.
Electrically heated clothing is a terrible idea. Comfortable for three years, then one day it just kills you. There's a reason that every power cable says things like "do not crush", but who's going to rigorously avoid putting their body weight on their shirt?
We somehow don't manage not to die with heating pads so I think it'll be fine.
My heated gloves are battery powered. Something like 3.7V and 1300 mAh or something. Unlikely to kill anyone ever.
I've known this one for years and years but it always surprises a few of my students (who come from warmer climates) when I mention it:

The scarf goes on the inside of the coat.

If you put the scarf on the outside, like you think you've seen in TV and movies, it's just decoration. Put it on the inside and it's an insulation layer and it blocks the cold air from blowing down your front. Absolutely game-changing. (Also, have a good coat, but that one seems more obvious to people.)

I found out if I tie the scarf around my face with the knot at the back of my neck, so the scarf covers the front of my face (mouth/nose/part of ears) and the loose ends loop around and get tucked between my jacket and my chest - I've been infinitely warmer since!

Hollywood doesn't know what winter is :P

I've been tying my scarf like that for quite some time! Haven't seen anyone else use it like that, though.
Hollywood does it that way so you can see the actors face.
That makes sense, sort of like a gasket. But for biking, I wear it on the outside so I can keep it over my mouth, allowing me to retain some warmth in my breath.
I use a gaiter for this and it's crucial. It gets damp with breathing, haven't really figured out a good solution besides spinning the gaiter around every once in a while.
I switched from a gaiter to a scarf precisely because of the dampness.

I can tie a scarf to be just slightly looser than the gaiter, and the extra space decreases the dampness massively, while still retaining almost all of the warmth.

I never understood putting things over one's mouth to keep warm. Doesn't it become moist and have a cooling effect?
What I have is a fleece scarf. I wrap it around my head (over my mouth in the front, back of neck in the back) and tie the rest under my chin. The part that's over my mouth is under moderate tension, but my beard pushes it away, so my breath goes up and down over my chin (not through the material). I then have the upper edge rolled to tighten it so that air can't escape upwards and fog my glasses.

It does get a bit moist after prolonged biking, but not badly, and that's not really against my skin.

The main effect is that there's a little pocket of exhaled warm air, just enough to mix with the next inhalation and help warm it a bit.

As someone who routinly runs practically half marathons in sub zero (during winter) I used to be like this as well, but if you do this type of activity often at some point cold air literally stops being a problem.

I don't know what happened but it is as if this was never a problem at all. And it is not "getting used to the bad thing" I just don't feel bad at all.

Breathing through the nose only helps.

Not for me. I have to breath only out through my nose, in cold weather, or my cilia stop moving and I need a pack of tissues. Ew.
That was me three years ago, before I started running 30 km per week regardless of weather.

After two weeks of doing that (I started around Christmas) it was not a problem anymore.

Interesting. I think I may have acclimated somewhat, but I still find that biking hard below freezing makes me prone to respiratory infections—unless I breathe through/under a scarf.
Wait, some people wear scarfs outside unironically?
Yes, especially if they've lived their whole lives in places that never really get below 40F/5C and have just learned about scarves from a) fashion and b) TV, but are now faced with a Midwestern winter for the first time as an adult. They'll buy a heavier knit scarf to keep warm and then not understand why it doesn't work very well. When I taught in western Illinois I made a point to tell my freshmen this every November or so and always always caught at least a few whose jaws dropped and had never really thought about it that way.
As a Canadian my tips are:

At my local college there are a lot of people from the Bahamas. They often wear hoodies and sandals with socks in the winter! It can get to -20C here and hoodies just won't cut it and sandals with socks could very quickly mean frost bite.

Yes scarfs are great since necks are a prime spot to loose heat during winter. A scarf or even a hood both together are even better. Long coats too none of these waits level ones get a coat at least past your waist preferably past your butt.

Layers are important more for temperature control. Even a hoodies and some sweaters can be warm if you have enough and one outside with wind protection.

Boots not sneakers to keep warm and the grip. So many people wear sneakers all winter now it blows me away. They're slippery, cold, and they probably cost more than winter boots these days.

Similarly: make sure either your coat or your gloves keep the wind from blowing up your sleeves. Coats without cuffs are awful unless worn with gloves that fit over the coat sleeves.
That's usually true...

But for a few years I lived in a very well insulated (smallish) apartment in a moderate climate. When it would get cold, I would turn the heat on. My bill would go up by a few dollars.

Then, I changed jobs and started working in a colder building. I spent more on warm clothes than I usually spent on heat! (And I had baseboard resistive heating, and I payed extra for wind power.)

Yep. Took me over 20 years, but I got there eventually.

A sweater and warm socks are game changers, as is a warm winter jacket and a good scarf. Add some tea and candles and the winter isn't half bad anymore. It's much easier to get through the cold months if you don't dread being outside.

Plus your houseplants will thank you... when you die and meet them in the afterlife.
I think one problem is managing moisture not to get mold at home.

So most likely you still need to keep heating on but it might not need to be super high - just enough to have convection from heater moving air at home and having some ventilation letting in a bit of outside air in and warm one getting moisture out.

Funny, it's only after moving away from my parents and going to college that I learned that you can heat your home so that it's comfortable. No need to dread such things as entering the cold bed at night, leaving the warm bed in the morning or sitting on the cold toilet seat.

I wish floor heating was more widespread where I live.

In floor heating with a geothermal heat pump = winning :) The upfront cost is a killer but quality of life wise afterwards oh man. Zero cold spots and unlimited hot water as a bonus side effect. Especially amazing when you live in the mountains.
Electric blanket, hot water bottle, robe, soft toilet seat, etc... 1000x more efficient.
1000x more miserable too.
Not at all, these things are downright luxurious. Wouldn't do without them, and you won't know till you try. It's not like you're required to keep the house a freezer in combo.

Just silly not to focus the heat where the need is. Do you light up the whole house to illuminate your desk?

Did you miss the part where I grew up like what you are describing (except electric blankets, those didn't exist)?

I'm not guessing or imagining anything, I know it's much worse.

I focus the heat where the need is - the air around me. Otherwise, everything you touch is cold, the air you breath is cold, exposed skin gets cold. Sex only under blankets? No thanks.

To be clear, I'm not talking about freezing, everything under 18 degrees C is really cold for me, and under 23 degrees C is somewhat cold.

People talk about wearing fingerless gloves at home - yeah I did that as a kid because we were poor, never doing it again unless I go broke.

There’s generally a recommended temperature to keep the house at, a good balance. Else move closer to the equator if you want to bop around in a bikini.
First thing I bought from my first salary was some socks, a comfy thick hoodie and pants. Best investment of my life after going years in broke ass student dime secondhand ancient weared clothing, especially now where we try to save energy and office is not 5 degrees overheated anymore. Everyone complains about being cold and I'm just warm.
"Staying warm" being the key! Your body generates plenty of heat. The idea is to trap it.
An extreme version of this: my mother in law lives in southern china where they don't get indoor heating by default (and the buildings are poorly insulated and aren't designed to be insulated, so adding it yourself isn't very feasible), so we are all bundled up the entire time we spend there in the winter, and everyone else is to, including the clerks are the department store and so on. The coldest 5C of my life :).

That's what happens when central planning makes the above observation.

I have a problem with my hands. They are always cold when working on the computer.
Heated desk pads are a thing, they will fix this issue.
austerity
I realize I was intending to reply to another comment but replied to the OP... I can't find the other comment now. Anyway...
I see here a number of comments about turning heating down as a way to live more "green" lifestyle. I see it as a corporate brainwashing and guilt shift getting into people's heads.

I just moved and now renting a place with electric water heater with pump moving that heated water around via radiators. It is quite large apartment with shitty, to be honest, insulation. The difference between "I put several layers of clothes on" and "I am wearing a t-shirt" is about 600 kWh per month. The same amount of energy is needed to prodice 30 kg of aluminium or run a single rack in a datacenter for just 2 days.

Never in your life your energy consumption can be compared with industrial usage. Likewise, never in you life your water consuption can reach a visible fraction of agricultural irrigation. Stop listening to coprorate PR.

I understand your sentiment but your examples still sound like a lot of energy.

If every home ran a server rack for two days a month, or produced 30kg of aluminum, that would obviously add up extremely quickly.

Yes, it's a lot of energy, and it shocked me first, because I never lived in a home that big before. It also costs the money most people consider worth saving. But it still fascinates me how relatively small this amount of energy compared to any type of industrial usage. Also, I need it only 2 months in a year.
I have a chihuahua. I'm willing to accept the slightly higher cost in winters for her being comfy.
My mom has 2 short hair chihuahuas (7-8lbs) and they wear sweaters 6 months a year. Just like the rest of us!
I agree for most people this works, but people with circulatory disorders such as Reynauds may still find that their hands and feet and even nose are freezing. Only fix for that is warm ambient air.
Slippers have been a game changer for staying warm. We live in a concrete apartment building and the floors are always cold in the winter. Insulating my feet is by far the easiest way to stay warm without heating the entire house to a "short sleeves and shorts" comfortable temp.
A cashmere sweater is the best investment you'll every make.
I would love to do this except it's usually my hands that are coldest, and I need them out to type on keyboard majority of time. Thus I have a space heater in my office.
This is what I hate so far from Switzerland: buildings keep centralized heating at high levels. Even if I set my radiator to the lowest levels, I am still comfortable walking around in shorts and T-shirts in the middle of the winter. And obviously, everyone has to pay for this kind of heating...
I put some heating pads in socks, gloves, and sometimes jackets, which I found to work better and much more energy efficient.
Unless you live in a super dry area you are causing your house to grow substantial mould and make you live shorter by years or decades.

Congratulations...

My father said to me: "I like a shower better than a bath, but ugh, that first blast of cold water when you turn it on is always a bit shocking."

Me: "Why don't you turn on the shower, wait for it to get warm, then get in?"

Him, realizing he'd been using a shower wrong for over 6 decades: "... huh."

I like your dad's way better; also don't turn on the warm water
But that would ruin the best waking part of 95% of my days.
Reminds me of an old joke:

> The best part of having cold showers every day? You'll never get arthritis!

> The worst part? You'll have cold showers every day.

> The best part of having cold showers every day? You'll never get arthritis!

Is that so? My joints in fingers and toes can hurt quite badly after being to too much cold water. Doesn't feel like it's helping them in any way - quite the opposite.

Related: you can buy "hot water recirculation systems" to keep the water hot in your shower. When the water in your hot water pipes gets cold, it dumps it into your cold water pipes. Therefore the water isn't wasted.

This can save a lot of water if you're the type to let your shower run until it is warm. So some jurisdictions encourage their installation.

Sounds like false economy to me. You’re saving a minute amount of water but using far more energy to keep less-insulated water warm.
"Far more" is relative, to say the least. We're talking about the amount of water that fills a shower pipe - very little - and unless you're only showering once a week it's not that big of a change.
In my house it's a lot. Due to the shower being in a different spot than when the house was originally built so the routing is about as inefficient as possible, there's well over 100 feet of pipe between our hot water tank and our shower.
How much time does it take? In the US almost all shower-heads and faucets will only use a maximum of 2.5 gallons per minute. For me the water will get hot in about 30 seconds. So I am using approximately 1.25 gallons of water. For me that is acceptable.
In our house, the master bath is on the complete opposite side of the house from the water heater, and we have to run about two gallons of water before it gets hot, and if we wait more than 10 or 15 minutes between showers, the water in the pipes gets cold again, and we have to run another two gallons. In other words it isn't just the water in the shower pipe, it is the water in the full pipe between the heater and the shower.

I've just started looking into either getting a tank-less water heater in the master bathroom or a recirculating system to save water. I like that the recirculating system would help with the entire house, not just that one bathroom, but it is looking to be quite expensive and wasteful of energy, unless we can do something like have switches in the bathrooms and kitchen to manually turn on the recirculator for a few minutes before use instead of running the water for a few minutes.

Look at instant hot water heaters to colocate near the fixtures; they don’t have to be powerful enough to provide hot water for the entire fixture use, just the time between when fixture use starts and hot water arrives from the primary heat appliance.

Fossil gas tankless units are nice because they can be installed on the exterior of a home and are maintenance free, but emit CO2 and can be expensive depending on your gas costs (they’re better for seasonal dwellings imho). Ideal combination is resistive instant heaters at points of use with a heat pump water heater for the whole dwelling.

They don't have to be instant either: I've seen 120V plugin models that have a small tank. No idea what's better, but you don't need a 240V hookup in the bathroom to have a "while the pipes heat up" heat source.
You probably wouldn't need it in a single-family dwelling, but there's a recirculation system in my 100+ unit building and it works great. Once it was turned off by accident and it took almost a minute to get hot water. Multiply that by all the neighbors and it seems like a good bargain.
Probably depends on your heater setup. My parents have a flow-activated central heating system in the basement and waiting for warm water can take over a minute. In my current apartment, I have an electric heater basically next to the shower and the water is warm within a few seconds at most.
I wonder why combination of central water heating plus electric heaters at the faucets is not more common. Probably the cost.
Like all thing in the water-energy nexus, the right answer depends on whether you live in a water-stressed environment. In California this may be a great idea, but it is probably not useful in New York.
There is no water shortage, there is an energy shortage. You can easily desalinate as much water as you want, it costs about $0.002 per gallon, while heating a gallon of water is 10x that.
Desal is 3.8 kilowatt-hours per thousand gallons while heating water 70 F to 120 F (reasonable minimum range) is 122 kWh per thousand gallons. You're absolutely right, this is a case where it makes no sense to use energy to save water.
I don't know if they are still around, but I've seen a shower head that includes a clever mechanism to reduce water waste if you let the shower run until warm.

When you turn on the shower, the head operates normally while the water is cold. When the water becomes warm a valve in the head closes to stop the flow. There is a button on the head you press to open the valve, which then stays open until you turn off the water.

The idea is that many people turn on the shower to warm up but don't just wait around in the bathroom to jump in as soon as the water is warm. They go do other things like start their coffee machine or wake up the kids or check the news and weather. Between the time the shower warms up and they get around to coming to see if it is warm they might waster several minutes worth of warm water.

With this clever shower head they don't waste that water. Also, if they can hear the shower running from wherever they are doing other stuff when they hear it stop they know the warm water is ready.

I get in, turn the water on max hot, and stick my hand in the stream of water coming out of the tub spigot. As it gets hotter, I adjust the temperature setting and converge on the right place. Then, I hit the diverter so water comes out of the shower head, while I stand mostly out of the spray (avoiding residual cold water and it takes a few seconds to warm up the pipes themselves). Then I stand fully under the spray and do minor adjustments, which continue throughout the shower.

This seems natural to me, but I've never met anyone else who does it this way.

I think it really depends on your water system at home. In this apartment, the water heats up fast and gets really, really hot. So it takes about 5 seconds to reach the desired setting. There’s also a pretty good range where it feels good to get in. So it’s just not worth putting a lot of thought into it.

At other apartments, I’ve had more involved systems.

This thread is making me think of that blog title: Reality has a surprising amount of detail.

I didn't spend any time designing that set of steps or anything. Rather at each point I'm just doing the immediate thing that will get me showering the quickest.

It's probably most useful when the hot water comes up quick, less useful when you have to wait a while for that. And it fails horribly when the hot water isn't working.

I've never felt the need to adjust though, except for shower-only stalls and the like.

Same, but no diverter, they are not common in Australia.
Not quite as effective, but even easier is that you can get a back-flow preventer valve (approximately $10 worth of metal) that allows the hot water to push into your cold water (but not the reverse)

As I understand it (and I am NOT a plumber) -- when you turn on the hot water, it pushes hot water up the line. Turn off the water, and that water will cool. But, if you add a one-way valve that allows flow from hot to cold, it will allow the higher pressure hot water line to flow into the cold water line so that it keeps hot water to the tap so that you don't have to wait (in my case) 5 minutes to flush out the cold water that has accumulated before getting to the hot water.

A plumber friend suggested this to me when I complained about my master bathroom (the furthest in the house away from the heater) taking SO LONG to warm up. Then he came out and installed it in about 15 minutes (which would probably amount to a one hour minimum charge for a plumber not doing it for free) plus a $10 part he had us buy on Amazon.

TLDR, now instead of taking 5 minutes to heat up from ice cold to warm to eventually hot, the hot water is warm from the second I open it, and hot within about 15-20 seconds.

That makes me wonder if there's a system that can recycle the heat lost in drain (hot water from the shower that just got drained).
I looked at this kind of thing a while ago: https://www.showersave.com/

It seems like a no brainer, but the prices are so high (like £700 / $900) that it would take many many years to pay back the cost, so it wasn't worth it.

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I think those mostly work when the shower is running though. When it's stopped the water in the cold pipe is eventually going to get cold. Still a good idea - I've been planning to get one when I next redo my bathroom.
These work when the hot water is cold, about twice a day for me, less if the shower is used regularly. The valve opens and water flows from your hot water pipe into your cold water pipe.

So you should turn it off when you go on vacation.

Why do not people use a bucket and a mug. By collecting water from the shower from freezing cold to scalding hot you average out the temperature for a nice warm shower and no wastage.
What's "a lot of water" in this context? My shower typically takes just a few seconds to get to temperature. Even a quick shower is typically a few minutes, so that tiny amount seems insignificant.
Right; the cold blast comes at the end!
my shower at my current apartment actually have the temp and volume nozzles separate so that i can taper the water pressure and it stays hot. Its delightful, i dont know why this isnt standard.
i meant that i intentionally run it on cold for the last 30 seconds or so of a shower.
Haha, gotta love the simple solutions
Haha! Thanks for sharing! I had a good laugh :D
Huh. I just block the stream with my hand until it warms up.
If you have a sink near the shower, run it full blast on hot to flush the cold water from the pipe.

This mainly saves time, but it also saves water if your shower mixer valve doesn't go to 100% hot. (It's generally good to keep the hot limiter below 100%, to avoid full-body scalding.)

I think that blast of cold water might have done good things for his endorphin levels. Just curious about this anecdote, was he generally a happy person?
for me, I take showers at night close to bed time. The last thing I want to experience is a cold shock to my system at that time of day. I can see it being useful in the morning though
There's a clever product that you can screw inline with the showerhead that lets cold water through at full blast but when the water gets hot, something pops (presumably using metal-expansion properties the way old thermostats did) and the flow is reduced to a trickle, so you only use just enough water to keep it hot.

Then when you get in, you pull a cord and it releases the full pressure of nice hot water.

We just keep a 5 gallon bucket next to the shower and fill it up with the pre-warm water. Then we use it to water the garden (and sometimes to power flush a stuck toilet).
5 gallons of water is 10 cents at San Francisco prices and more like 3-5 cents in a typical place with normal prices, just FYI.
It’s not about the money it’s about the environment. Also we are still in a drought and every bit helps.

I do it to help others, not myself.

That ... still seems like the wrong way. Every shower I've known has let you angle the head down. So start it that way, feel for the water to get warm, then turn it towards you.

With the method you described, it takes longer, with more water usage, to get into position, plus you let some water spray out into the rest of the bathroom as you transition inside it.

Wim Hof would disagree. I always start and end my showers with 1 minute of full cold (in Canada, so cold = 8°C)
Why start the shower full cold? (I end showers cold, not sure if 1 minute, sometimes less sometimes more depending on mood)
I start with full cold because it's more of a shock to the system. I find the cold water improves my mood and provides a daily dose of "suck it up, buttercup". I've __almost__ started crave that cold shock in the mornings now, and the cold water at the end of the hot shower feels like .. relief.
I'm sure we can find a bizarre cult/motivational speaker/pyramid scheme to disagree with anything though.
The army method: stand there and take it like a man.

The Superman method: put your hand up to block the blast.

The Spiderman method: jump to the opposite side of the shower to avoid the blast.

The clever method: turn on the shower and wait outside.

The Pakistani method: shower with fully cold water in the summer. And mock anyone (mostly spoiled people from the Middle East) who turns the water heater on during summer months.
I literally started doing this like five days ago. I'm 43...
Ask my wife what she prefers and tell her what I prefer.

Years of marriage before we figured out I hate cleaning small things (silverware and glasses) and she hates cleaning big things (pots and pans). We permanently changed how we clean up after meals.

Not exactly in line with your premise, but changed my entire outlook about expressing what I want or prefer about almost anything.

Chef knives are designed to be held by pinching the blade between the forefinger and the thumb, and wrapping the rest of your fingers around the handle. I used to wrap all my fingers around the handle, until Jacques Pepin showed me how to do it properly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMA2SqaDgG8
An ex with commercial kitchen experience taught me this. My own experience is that, having held and used a knife the right way even once, the wrong way feels wrong forever after.
Tell that to my wife and in-laws. They’ve asked to be taught, been shown how to do it, shown why it’s safer and faster, have timed their speed and found it to be faster.

They still refuse to do the proper technique. They cut themselves regularly. Their stubbornness knows no bounds. Even when it involves literal blood at least once a week.

It isn't just about the grip. The stance also matters. I had trouble using a knife well for a long time because I would position myself parallel to the cutting board, which meant I would bend my wrist when using a knife.

Once I realized my wrist should be straight when using a knife and adjusted my stance to be slightly angled away from the cutting board, my knife skills leveled up a ton.

Chefs will hold different knives different ways dele ding on what they’re doing. That said, I also do a pinch grip for chopping.
The assistant in that video talks about holding the knife around where the center of the weight of the knife is. This spot is different knife to knife. So, knives with a heavier handle are designed to be held by the handle.
The pinch grip is the correct default for all knives in the classic "chef knife" shape and their derivatives like santoku. The exceptions are based on the application, not the knife; for example when cutting through a chicken leg joint you might want to exchange some control for power and a lot of cooks will use a full handle grip then.

The only cooking knives really meant to be held always by the handle entirely are heavy butcher cleavers, that have all the weight in the blade and you're meant to sling it around. Even a paring knife is often best used by holding the blade.

Absolutely. And just work on your knife skills a little bit every time you cook. "The claw" for slicing things makes it so much faster and safer. And keep those tools sharp, a few months ago I finally got a whetstone set and stopped using a diamond steel to half-ass it, and it's a game changer.
This only applies to Western style knives.

I was taught to choke up on the blade by a Western chef as well.

Then I went to Japan and was told to only hold the handle for their style of knives. Apparently, they balance the weight of the blade and handle differently there.

I tried to choke up on the blade at a very professional knife store in a market and was immediately corrected by one of the Japanese chefs there.

Then, the following evening, we went to a Michelin star rated kaiseki, all of the chefs were holding the knives by only the handle, no choking.

I realized I probably looked very foreign choking up on the blade in that store earlier. Humbling moment!

Dang! I just finished watching your half-hour video on how to cut/dice vegetables :-)

There is something which grabs your attention and fills you with admiration when you see a Master displaying his expertise so effortlessly and easily.

I am now going to watch more of Mr. Jacques Pepin.

His chicken ballotine is a great video
Wait until you find the series that Jacques Pepin and Julia Child did together. Absolute gold.
Frankly, it's however it feels comfortable and allows you to cut well. Do whatever you want.
Ice might not be the best treatment for aches, pains, muscle sprains, etc.:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34051860

This is relatively new, I wouldn’t classify it as “wrong” but “changing science/protocol”

The new protocol is MEAT instead of RICE.

The knowledge hasn’t reached every medical provider yet

I realised most of my basic health routine was useless to detrimental:

- Soap: it disrupt the skin microbiome. Only useful for hand washing and to clean private parts / the bottom. Even then use high quality soap like Marseille soap or Aleppo soap.

Note: Also as mentioned in the comments if you avoid soap / deodorant you *will* probably need to shower two times a day even without doing physical activities. Three times with physical activities.

You may also need to particularly rub the smelly parts of the body (e.g. the armpits) with a clean sponge, use mild to hot water (cold water doesn’t do it without soap) and trim your body hair. There is no magic. People use soap for a reason: it’s more “practical” and it requires less care to stay clean

And if you are used to wash yourself with soap and you brutally stop you may smell a little the first month until your microbiome is able to handle all the waste and your skin to balance its oil production. Even if you shower multiple times a day.

- Shampoo: Most shampoos are very a agressive for your scalp / hairs and should be avoided. Especially if you have fragile / curly hair. You can wash them with plain water or conditioner instead.

Note: Using a gentle shampoo without silicones and surfactants can still be useful from time to time. Especially to reset the pH of the scalp.

Also using a shampoo rarely and co-washing instead can be impractical if you have long hair as it’s way harder to clean and takes far longer to dry

- Toothpaste: it can be useful but it’s not so important. What really is important is to brush your teeth energetically to remove by mechanical friction the dental plaques and to change toothbrush frequently. Avoiding for a time to use toothpaste and using dental plaque revealer can be a great way to learn how to properly wash one’s teeth

Note: As someone else noted “energetically” means speed and taking your time. *Not* applying pressure on your teeth. Also toothpaste helps the teeth by providing fluoride. It’s just that using it every time may not be so useful and do not replace brushing your teeth effectively

Wow, you managed to convince yourself that something you were doing right was wrong
???
These are heterodox views about personal hygiene.
It sounds like this person previously had a healthy relationship with hygiene but has somehow convinced themself to just stop cleaning themselves.

Soap and toothpaste are good things. These are miraculous modern inventions. Use them.

Most conditioners are filled with silicones that are not water soluble. But after a while, they break down and make your hair look dirty.

The solution is to remove them, but you can only do that by using strong solvents.

So you use shampoos that contain strong solvents. This damages your hair, so you make sure to use conditioners to repair the damage. Except they don't repair, they fill in the holes with silicones. The silicones are now deeper into your individual hair strands. It looks good, but after a while, they break down. So you use solvents, deeper this time.

This damages your hair. Then you use conditioners. Most conditioners are filled with silicones that are not water soluble. Yet, after a short time...

I donate my time to help the homeless. I know what people that don't use soap smell like.
The key thing is water. And clean cloths.
Exactly. There is a world between “don’t use soap on your body” and “never shower yourself or change your clothes”. I often wash myself with water two times per day
You are telling me that you are able to detect by smell whether a person is using a conditioner that contains silicones?
That doesn't mean you shouldn't cowash, it means you should upgrade to products that do not have silicone (also phosphates). There are various haircare forums that will give you the specific ingredients to look out for.
I'm not saying you shouldn't wash.

The comment we are commenting under is not even saying that but recommending that we pay attention to the ingredients: "Most shampoos are very a agressive for your scalp [...] Using a gentle shampoo without silicones and surfactants"

Here is an interesting web application that allows you to scan products to know their ingredients. It tells you if they contain hard to remove silicones or harsh solvents. https://curlscan.com/

Using it to scan the brands at the stores that are local to me reveals that only a small minority of product do not contain the silicone-solvent circle.

Anecdotal, sure, but I have been teaching this to all the women in my life and they all report back that they are able to go longer without washing their hair with products now that they pay attention to the ingredients. Turns out that for a lot of people, we were going through the motion of adding a coat of product and removing that coat of product daily instead of actually fighting grime and sweat.

I heard conflicting info on this. I thought you were not supposed to use soap for private parts?
please use more than just water.
Ha, I do use soap. I just heard somewhere you aren't supposed to use any.
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Unless you have a vagina, in which case err on the side of no soap, unless it becomes a problem (and then buy special soap)
You need to use special soap that has the right pH value. Handsoap / shower gel is not the correct one.
Not regularly but before / after intercourses. And for the ass usually after each time you need to defecate.
This is actually something I found myself doing the past few years. A good wash cloth and self made products are 1000x better than the heavy duty chemicals we put on our bodies everyday. I have a rule: If I can't eat it, don't use in externally either.
I would add flossing on a daily basis to the list. In between every single teeth - I missed that part when I was in my 20’s and now have bone loss in my jaw due to gum disease. Also why most old people loose teeth at some point.
> I would add flossing on a daily basis to the list.

As something to do, or something to avoid? Most tribespeople and animals don't floss and have healthier teeth than modern people. I'm not sure sawing between ones gums is the ideal way of removing plaque, and I suspect is not been tested properly because I don't believe people actually do floss every every day.

If you are going to compare to tribes people or animals then you are going to have to completely avoid refined sugar. Which may be more unrealistic than flossing every day...
> You are going to have to completely avoid refined sugar

Yes, obviously.

> Which may be more unrealistic than flossing every day...

Why?

>> Which may be more unrealistic than flossing every day...

>Why?

Assuming your question is in good faith, because refined sugar is everywhere. Not just in sweet treats which are commonly part of cultural celebration but also in a wide range of processed and prepared foods.

You also might just die from a infection if you can't a root canal. Plus the whole sugar and corn syrup thing.
Well yes obviously avoid sugary foods that’s fairly common knowledge.
That was my thinking when I was younger but I was definitely wrong. My gums are objectively healthier now than back then.

The problem with this comparison is that most tribespeople had kids by 18-20 so health issues that come much later don’t have much of an evolutionary hit. Losing teeth at 40 was not going to change things much for their genes.

Most tribespeople have diet that basically has no sugar, no processed carbs, and most men died by 40-50 due to intertribal warfare/infection so it didn’t matter much if you lose some teeth at 50. When you see documentaries of tribespeople almost all the old people have some missing teeth. If you don’t mind loosing teeth when you get older then I guess you can ignore that advice.

Also, oral care is correlated with mortality risks -- the more plaque that builds up, the significantly greater chances of all-cause mortality:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34575939

That's one of them correlations innit? People who brush less IN GENERAL are less healthy people, but not BECAUSE they brush less.
> That's one of them correlations innit?

You might have something meaningful to contribute to the discussion, but using a "word" like "innit" is not going to get anyone to take your comment seriously.

Flossing can be sort of boring, so I purchased one of those electric water-piks to floss using blasts of water. It’s similar to the little water gun they use at the dentists. It works really well, kinda fun, and makes your mouth feel super clean. Can’t recommend it enough.
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> Soap: it disrupt the skin microbiome. Only useful for hand washing and to clean private parts / the bottom. Even then use high quality soap like Marseille soap or Aleppo soap.

> Shampoo: Most shampoos are very a agressive for your scalp / hairs and should be avoided. Especially if you have fragile / curly hair. You can wash them with plain water or conditioner instead.

Wait, what? I would love to see some supporting evidence for all this.

Not research-backed, but you can google "Curly Girl Method" for much of the reasoning, and probably many examples of people who avoid shampoos to great success, so it's at least true for some.
I think this is an example of overly pushing everything to the demand of science.

It obviously depends on your body, diet, and microbiome.

There's no definitive answer like if Earth was balls around the Sun. The answer is personal. Does that work for you or not? What have you tried and what works and what doesn't

I think the problem is that everyone knows “that person” who thought they didn’t need soap/shampoo etc. but it turns out they just have a terrible sense of smell and are deluded

Like the friend of mine who told me she never used shampoo in which my immediate reaction was “no shit..”

On the flip side, I do have a close friend who admitted he only showers every three days or so, and smells impeccable (which is extra funny because he has anosmia)

Not research backed, but to add one data point, I bought into the whole "I need a three-step skincare routine" trend (which I think is positive, people should care for their skin as they should any other organ). However, after trying ~5 different cleansers (varying in ingredients, lathering vs non-lathering, and oil cleansing), I realized my acne is best when I cleanse twice daily with water.

On the other hand, moisturizing and sunscreen has helped with dryness and post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation from acne.

Just in case: for many people with acne problems, changing the pillowcase daily (or every other day, turning your pillow over the second night) seems to make a clear difference.
I used to think I had oily skin, and so I would use harsh cleansers to cut through that oil. They didn't help at all, and I had bad skin for years. It took a skin conscious girlfriend to make me realize that I actually have dry skin, which produces an excessive amount of oil to compensate for the dryness. Just keeping my skin regularly moisturized and using a gentle soap or cleanser before bed/as needed cleared my skin.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/mounting-data-sugges....

Soap is a rather recent invention (the Romans didn't have it until later in their Empire), and one that until 1-2 centuries ago people used sparringly. And yes, they did clean themselves with bathing, even in medieval times, despite the prevalent myths about those times.

Also, the last 80 years or so, after TV became popular soaps and fancy shampoos have been marketed to death with BS snakeoil claims. 99% of what you hear in those ads is bogus, including claims about the efficacy of their fancy sounding ingredients...

Might also want to check the book "Clean"

These are not universals. I’ve seen the no-shampoo meme repeatedly in online comments. As someone with long, fine hair, I’ve made two attempts to go without, waiting almost a month for my scalp to “reset”. It always looked extremely greasy (like Gary Oldman’s character in Slow Horses).

I have had luck opting for gentler shampoos and not using them every wash, but I wouldn’t speak for anyone else. There is large variance in peoples’ bodies.

Same, except I get very dry and frizzy hair. I only wash mu hair 2 times a week already & tried other crap for months with no difference in how shitty my hair is
I concur that my takes largely depends of my own situation. Long hair is tremendously more difficult to wash and takes way more time to dry. Just co-washing them is often impractical. When I had longer hair I usually used shampoo once every two to three days instead of once every two weeks. Very gentle ones however
Same here. Though with a dry shampoo (or corn starch) I have found I can make it a few days in between washes.
I’ve met a few people in my life that avoid deodorants and soaps and claim they don’t need them and don’t stink. They all did. My theory is they get used to their smell after awhile and can no longer smell it.
I indeed tends to get “dirty” and smell faster and I indeed feel it. However I wash myself more often. Usually in the morning and before bed. After sport sessions also
That is an interesting and seemingly likely explanation. I've had this "debate" with entire groups of people who live in much cooler environments and claim they don't have body odor, but they most assuredly do. I never understood whether they "don't stink when they're in their normal environment" or just couldn't smell it anymore.
I recently moved from Texas to seattle. They smell like dirt and wet dog as well as traditional musky BO.

They don’t smell it because their olfactory neurons have habituated.

Yep, they stink and this guy stinks too.
I went through a phase of stinking and I can confirm you don't realize it. Something in the brain just filters out smells that you're used to.
Humanity ignored soap for significant amounts of its existence. Nearly everyone stunk. There are likely very very few people whose natural body microbiome won't end up stinking. You (the reader) are probably not one of those people.
Strong disagree on toothpaste. Toothpaste is more than just a physical abrasive, it’s also a source of fluoride that makes your enamel far more resistant to acid erosion.
That’s why I said it was useful in the first place. However you already get enough fluorides with a moderate use.
> until your microbiome is able to handle all the waste / oil that your skin produces

Or maybe until you stop noticing the smell? Ask a friend perhaps.

I indeed did asked friends. They couldn’t tell the difference. That’s why I stocked to it. However I indeed need to wash myself more often, especially when the temperature is kinda hot
I see. I wonder if you've been phrasing this (tricky) question correctly.

For example, if you've been asking "I don't smell bad right?? I smell great, right!?" you're unlikely to get honest replies.

Reminds me of "The Mom Test" [1]. The book has a few tricks that can help with asking tough questions and receiving an honest feedback.

[1] https://www.momtestbook.com/

I asked friends which I know to be brutally honest as I was both skeptical and worried.

And you indeed smell if you don’t shower two times a day without soap and deodorant.

And even by showering two times a day you will smell the first month until the skin regulates its oil production and the microbiome is able to handle skin wastes.

Great book btw.

Is Dr. Bronners a good one?
I had a bad experience using Dr. Bronner's as body soap. It really disrupted my natural barrier. However, for non-skin purposes, I think it's an excellent general purpose soap.
No man you definitely need soap.
If you only shower once a day, you need soap. If you're willing to shower multiple times a day, you don't need soap.
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What would multiple showed a day look like? Morning, post-lunch, before bed? How long are the showers and do you use any soap at all?
I shower before any type of socialization (including work), and after any type of exercise. That's multiple times a day and similar to most westerners.

The big thing some people don't do is shower after work before going out for the evening. Women might be able to get away with that, but if you're a man and you occasionally sweat you can't, soap or not.

I only used soap on my hands and bottom. Usually I shower in the morning, then after sport if I am doing a sport session and then before going to bed. Showers take far less time as you don’t use soap, however you need to use mild to hot water as cold water won’t wash anything without soap
Exactly: I shower often two times a day. And that is when I avoid sport
I stopped washing my body with soap 3 years ago. Now I just wash my nether region. I also wash my hair once a week. My skin isn't dry and scratchy and my hair is strong and silky. Kind of amazing that marketing has us all thinking that hygiene means soaping everything everyday. Just water will remove most things. Soap is to remove oil and fat.
If you sweat and you don't use soap and you don't want to stink you need to wash every 4 hours or so. If you don't sweat you need to wash every 8 hours or so. Soap adds about 50% to those numbers.

If you're not dancing closely with people maybe you can extend that time a little bit, but those are the numbers we settled on as a dance community who regularly had dances longer than 4 hours...

Related discoveries/improvements I've made:

1) Soap/Shampoo: I stopped using fancy perfumed big-brand shampoos (Dial/Dove/Pert/etc. filled with things like Methylchloroisothiazolinone which, despite being an endless source of literary entertainment, is just a preservative) and started using very very simple soaps, like Dr. Bronner's all-purpose castile stuff, and I've found my hair/body is just as clean and doesn't turn to oil/grease after a skipping one day

2) Toothpaste: I switched to a brand that does NOT have sodium lauryl sulfate (which just makes fake foam) and any minor bumps or scratches (from an awkward tortilla chip chomp, for example) no longer cause days worth of pain. MAJOR life improvement.

You probably stink tbh..
Not if you shower yourself multiple times a day, trim your body hair and rub the “smelly” parts (ex your armpits) with a clean sponge
He wasn't very clear but the point was to use soap in your nether regions and your armpits only - not to not use it at all.
I can smell this comment.
> What really is important is to brush your teeth energetically

Potentially bad advice. If you apply too much pressure or use too hard of a toothbrush you will get yourself early gum recession. Brush gently using a soft brush, ideally electric because it cleans better. Lots of info available on this online, or ask your dentist.

I should have clarified that I meant speed not pressure. Applying pressure is indeed a awful for teeth
Why though? What advantage are you getting from avoiding soap that would convince people to stop using it?
Ha, I learned about no soap on HN some years ago, a HNer claiming their lovers thought the no-soap skin smelled great. I guess it's likely that other bacterial species may thrive on your skin when not washing with soap (soap washing would remove more bacteria, only allowing fast-multiplying bacteria to repopulate the area, while water-washing would leave more different species). Not sure if the microbiome difference is better/healthier/nicer smelling. I jumped at the "my lovers loved it" recommendation and gave it a try (still used shampoo, no success excluding that, washed hands, used deodorant and paid extra care to smelly areas), and the armpits definitely smelled differently (but hardly like flowers) after a while of this practice, __to me__. As pointed out already, that may be have been my olfaction getting used to my newly acquired BO, like not noticing the smell of your own house, but others' houses smell different. My post-training clothes still smelled terrible.
Not sure why this received so much flak. I have been soap and shampoo free for 15 years or so. Have seen no issues. I do use soap for washing hands after meals to get rid of oils and stuff. Its not like I have perfect skin or hair. Just average perhaps but not bad either. At 42 I have only 4 gray hair, probably its just genetics.
What is the new writing grip and what were you doing before?

I always assumed dynamic tripod grip was what was taught, and the best, as it's how I write, but a couple of my kids used a cross between lateral tripod and quadrupod - and their teachers would complain about their writing.

I had to restrain myself when I realized this is what they'd been taught, and next met the teachers responsible.

For 30 years I sang "whoa-a, head waving" instead of "whoa-a, we're halfway there"
ooof but the syllables don't match! It didn't make your brain hurt??? you just stretched out the -'ing'?
I can hear head waving by ignoring the we're (pretty easy to do). Stretching the -ing is even easier.

Oooo-uh head waveang

The term for this is mondegreen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen

The ones I still hear despite knowing the correct lyrics are the first itemized one in the bullet list in that article, "there's a bathroom on the right".

My personal favorite one though is "I want to rock and roll all night, and part of every day" (instead of "party every day"), mostly because unlike most mondegreens it sort of works, but changes this confident declaration of desire into a bizarrely flaccid one. (Listening directly to the audio in a pristine listening environment like I'm in now I don't hear this, but in a normal day-to-day environment with other life happening I can still hear this.)

My friend thought brown eyed girl started with "hey there amigo" instead of "hey where did we go"
Ha! This is another one of mine, but I had thought, for a while, that it was 'hey there Rodrigo'
And my favorite one from my wife:

A modern day warrior Mean, mean stride Today's Tom Sawyer Mean, mean guy

Oh wow! I used to think it was "invisible tough shed", instead of "invisible touch, yeah"
Taking a number two without the use of a footstool to get into a more natural squatting position. I look forward to the ritual every morning and usually achieve 'poophoria'.
Hugely underrated tip. Standard toilets are just that, a guesstimated average of the height one might need to poop relatively comfortably. Because it was originally derived from chairs (the first toilets being actual chairs with a hole), with no respect for how human anatomy developed over millions of years, in most cases it's way too high for anyone under 6 feet / 180cm. Someone should run studies on whether this influences the rates of colon cancer.

The most naturally-ergonomic toilet is actually the seatless "turkish" hole. Unfortunately it's often not the easiest to use in a hygienic manner, and it requires a lot of space. I wish someone would invest in evolving that model into something better.

I grew up with the turkish holes. IMHO they're not ergonomic at all, and don't actually need much more space than a typical toilet. Eventually most of them get replaced by the typical Western toilets, because old people have problems squatting.
They might not feel more ergonomic to our increasingly-underused muscles, but they are to our colons.

> old people have problems squatting.

They shouldn't be required to, but everyone else should have the option to preserve their bodies better.

To make it explicit, the colon gets straightened that way, business becomes easier.
Wouldn't leaning forward accomplish the same thing?
I started leaning forward a few years ago. I'll just say it seems to help.