We were supposed to be in the age of PWAs. That was the initial plan for iOS before the app store and 30% cuts on subscription apps.
Most web apps suck too though so I guess pick your poison. My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.
I'm currently attempting to write a calendar app for personal use, and I wanted to go the route of a self-host PWA. Notifications are a good point. How can I create notifications as a reminder before an event? Alerts are part of the icalendar standard ("VALARM"), so these are clearly notifications that are wanted by the user. Is that even possible for a PWA?
> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.
That's it, an app installed on a mobile device is a much more effective attentional hook than a website that must be either bookmarked or remembered. It is like inviting a door-to-door salesman to your house, of course they will take the invitation.
We are in the age of PWAs. I've created a few where I just host them on Github pages (no backend needed, no hosting costs).
And the P in PWA has become "Personal" ... vibe coding apps with no backend for non-developers for their _personal_ needs e.g. a create a job hunting app for my son specific to the types of jobs he's looking for. If I update it, it updates on his phone plus he can sync to his laptop via WebRTC.
> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.
My strong belief is they realized people were prone to spending absurd amounts of money in Facebook games, so they hijacked "social gaming" and spent 20 years deteriorating in defense of it.
Consider this timeline:
- Apple launches iPhone in 2007 with web apps central
- Zynga launches "Zynga Poker" on FB in 2007
- Apple launches App Store in 2008 with single-purchase apps
- Zynga hits 40 million monthly users in 2009
Apple implements IAP and defensive policies in 2009
- Hundreds of millions of people playing these games in 2010
... Apple goes to war with, bans and eventually kills Flash, the core technology to these games, and all of it moves to mobile and IAP
Fantastic work! It's always nice to see the method, in case anything is out there making this stuff easier. But the result is the real prize. There's way too much nonsense out there that is an app when it should be a webpage. I'm so tired of all of these apps.
One criticism, though: I wish you would have made a simple form-based alternative to the app's population mechanism, rather than just make the one-off consumer for yourself(/those you shared with). Definitely way more work and not something you should have to do. But that would have been a cherry on top. Not only prevent needing the app for viewing, but also removing future incentive for an organization turning to an app like that in the first place.
I'm the original author (but not the poster here on HN).
Yeah, I considered that. I even wrote the code in such a way that it supports that. But I'm concerned about the legality of distributing it. Given that it hits API endpoints that were expected to be private to the developers' app, giving away a "tool" that bypasses the app (which hosts ads, albeit for their other products, and so serves as a money-maker for the app's owner) could be illegal.
At the very least, it could be a violation of the terms of service or just an annoyance to the app developer, either of which could lead them to trying to stop me from doing it, which would be an inconvenience. So maybe I'll wait until after the trip, when the page becomes useless to me, and THEN open-source it!
I wanted to ask, why did you go with reverse-engineering using network traffic instead of decompiling the app locally and looking for endpoint definitions?
Hey, thanks for the follow up! That makes perfect sense to me. Personally, though, I was thinking more of a "competing service" than a "steal your content" kind of offering.
I know hosting an entire sign up process and user content is not something you can just build and forget about, so my thought was that a sufficiently decent website could bundle a package that could be hosted on existing organization infrastructure. A zip file of the user's content that they could upload to dropbox/drive/sharepoint/etc. Then the consumer page would match a url slug to a package file and serve the content that way.
It's... a lot of stuff for a quick workaround project. And it's a pathology of an engineer to make solutions where solutions aren't needed. So grain of salt on any of that. But I did want to clarify since you were willing to engage with the concept, as understood. Hopefully this proposition strikes you as less concerning/illegal! I never want to steal anyone's work or infrastructure. I just believe that better alternatives - even ones borne of seeing how badly other people are doing it - can and should win out, if people ever provide them.
Amazing. Love the dedication to fix this minor annoyance, which I also share. Would be great if there was a kind of universal tool for this, as I am sure many of those shitty apps share the same internals.
For most app ads it's enough to set a DoT or DoH in the system that blocks ad domains. Android supports this with a settings menu entry, on Apple one needs a more "technical" solution I think (loading some XML?). Most VPN apps also support DNS enforcement.
Apps like YouTube are an exception, but there are other ways around that on Android.
It's too bad not enough people know about using adguard dns on their phones. Dunno about iPhones but it works wonders on Android. Only downside is it sometimes interferes with signing into public wifi networks.
> I can’t understand how we got to this place with “app culture"
Thie assertion is extremely funny to me. Historically we come from an "app culture". Back in the day, around 2000 or so, if you wanted some functionality, you ran an application. You ran software in your computer.
Then on the early 2000s people started migrating their software web" , inventing "SaaS" (software as a service" .
I remember my young self being strongly opposed to that, because I saw little sense in constraining what you could do with a scripting language, when you could easily get the "networking" capabilities adding tcp/ip to your software .
But the web and Javascript won, mostly due to control (there was advertising in software since the 90s, for example Opera or GetRight had ad banners) .
The feature and mobile phones came and people started to migrate to "apps" again. So we came full circle.
It's because apple pushed towards apps and didn't want web apps on their phone. Likely due to the profits they can gain from appstore sales
Native apps would be the better platform in my eyes if the Operating Systems would be better in terms of letting a user manage what a native app have access to and can do.
But currently they are preferred by companies despite more dev effort because they can get more user data without the user having easy ways to prevent that. And of course showing ads without the user being easily able to block them
There's nothing technical stopping us from investigating and modifying the apps we install - at least on operating systems that allow you to install unapproved apps. YouTube Vanced only got in legal trouble for distributing a copyrighted work (the YouTube app) which led to ReVanced which is a patcher that doesn't include a copy of the original app.
You're not wrong at all, but it's interesting that iOS launched with only web app support for third party software, and it took community pressure to persuade them to support native apps. There was not even an app store to begin with.
Pretty much every single feature added in the early days (and later) of ios was simply copying what was popular on cydia. That well started to run dry as they got better at whack a moleing jailbreaking exploits, severely contracting that community of tweak developers, and we've seen the resulting product stagnation for some time now.
Keep going further back, we had thin client terminals (not sure of the terminology, this was just before my time - I remember using them to look for books at our town library when I was a kid, green or orange text on a black screen, no mouse).
OP is about information, not functionality. In the early 2000s you would put things like that on a web page, and you'd put e.g. chat in its own application like Gaim.
In the 2010s the model inverted: now you need to keep an entire browser open to use google chat, and people try to get you to install an app to read a web page.
I was having that argument with everybody in the late 1990s and was vindicated.
In corporate IT, for instance, you have to roll out new versions of software all the time. There are better solutions for managing desktop fleets than there were back then, but with a web app you just update the server and... you're done!
- well-designed apps retain enough state to be useful offline or in places with spotty coverage; PWAs can kinda be made to work like this but IIRC iOS will happily evict them under disk pressure;
- notifications. I've read that Apple have implemented them for home screen installed web apps but for reasons unknown I have not seen this in action even once.
Nah. When the App Store started getting truly popular you couldn't even run an ad blocker on mobile Safari. That came many years later.
IMO the reason we got to this place is twofold:
- apps give companies a spot on your Home Screen and allow you to develop a habit of opening it. I suspect Apple are very aware of this, which is why they continue to make it very difficult to install a web app to your home screen.
- notifications. Which, again, draw a returning audience
And that's fine, but if your app is just a wrapper for a website, send people to the website and have a link for them to download the app if they prefer.
Unlock Origin doesn't enable all filters by default, you can go in the extension settings and enable more filters which removes the cookie banners etc.
I think yeah, most apps can be webpages, but the biggest used apps can also be webpages, (insta, facebook, x) and so on , I think the only real indicator is how much people are using the apps, not if it's simpler just to do a webpage
Wait, the users password is part of the URL? What happens if the password contains a forward slash or a question mark? Wouldn't that break the whole endpoint?
Original author here. Upon inspection, these passwords are clearly not chosen by the user and, as far as I can tell, consist only of numbers and uppercase letters.
I recently decided to publish an app on the App Store just so I could say I accomplished that, and maybe even make a little bit of beer money on the side.
Now, I’ll be the first to admit that my actual app is pretty much garbage. I don’t expect it to be popular. It’s basically a worse version of stuff that is already available.
I expected this to be a learning exercise about the process of getting stuff published.
Long story short, by the end of the ordeal I was somewhat surprised that anyone independent bothers to publish apps at all. The amount of red tape and nitpicking by the initial app review process is astounding. The business/legal side is also annoying. I might be misremembering or misinterpreting, but it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to avoid the App Store sending the whole internet to your personal phone and address.
On a website you can just not deal with any of that, and not give Apple $99/year just to keep your app on the store.
And we haven’t even gotten into the big royalties you’re paying for App Store purchases.
Still, I understand the appeal at some point, just not for an app like OP was forced to use. I certainly wouldn’t want to use something like Immich or Opencloud without an app: these apps need to deeply integrate with my phone to be truly useful.
> I might be misremembering or misinterpreting, but it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to avoid the App Store sending the whole internet to your personal phone and address.
This specifically is due to EU trader laws. The Play Store has the exact same thing.
You can claim you don’t fall under the definition of “trader” to keep your personal information hidden, assuming you actually aren’t one. You may not be if you aren’t supporting yourself through your apps.
In my experience, Apple’s approach here is better than how Google does it. Play Store doesn’t even have the option to deny being a trader. They just always publish your personal information if you intend on selling anything. At least Google is up front about it, though.
Couldn't agree more. I've only published on Google Play, but the number of hoops Google makes you jump through (and keeps making you jump through if you want to keep your app in the store) is a full-time job in itself. New permission requirements, needing to self-decalre that your app does/doesn't do this or that, forcing you to reveal your personal details. The list goes on.
As someone who uses apps, the hoops you have to jump through are one of the reasons I prefer apps. I'm glad Apple knows who you are and have scrutinized (to some degree) your app.
I have no interest in installing a web app that could look innocuous today and be entirely different every time I hit F5.
It's not about a "good job" or a "bad job". It's a continuous game of cat and mouse. They're getting better at it just as some of the best funded bad actors are.
They only have 500 reviewers for the whole App Store, it's defective by design. And in fact, they were chastised by the judge in the Epic case for investing very little in the review process six years ago when they also only had 500 reviewers for the whole App Store. This isn't cat and mouse it's theater while they're shielded by section 230 immunity.
It matters in the context of trusting their review process, and certainly "seems small" considering these 500 people oversee 2 million apps while scams and fraud have been prolific for years.
Search right now in the App Store for "Morpho" and you'll find a "Morpho: Network" app. That app says it's some sort of TODO/Note taking app. It uses very broad language in the screenshots and assets from morpho.org (a decentralized protocol).
Once you open the app, it immediately downloads another bundle using OTA updates and shows an entirely different app where you "connect your wallet". You can imagine what happens next.
It's against the App Store rules but if you build an app with React Native/Expo you can OTA update it to do something completely different without going through another review. Enforcement is minimal, especially since you can selectively roll out updates to make it unlikely that a reviewer gets it.
It's such a weird thing to be concerned about though. Your phone automatically updates apps by default so they can suddenly look different later. And even then, so what? If the change was malicious just stop using it? Apps are sandboxed, websites are sandboxed, you'll be fine.
> Enforcement is minimal, especially since you can selectively roll out updates to make it unlikely that a reviewer gets it.
What's worse is that there's practically no process to report any sort of rulebreaking, so someone could be mining crypto or running a residential proxy [1] through the mobile game I've been playing, and I'd be none the wiser.
My assumption is that 99% of what is on the app store is trash. I never go surfing the app store to find "an app" because I know it will be a waste of time. I'm outright offended that they hide the search in a corner and center a bunch of ads for apps that I know I want nothing to do with. I had to subscribe to Apple Arcade and cancel right away to make the (1) badge go away on a feature that insults me as a "gamer."
All the time I hear that "PhotoSync" is good or I install an app for a business that I deal with like my bank or the local gas station.
On the other hand I feel like it is safe and usually worthwhile to browse the web -- even the sketchy parts, like the web sites that lead me into rabbit holes right out of Videodrome.
Exactly. I've published apps. When GP says their actual app is "pretty much garbage" and that there was red tape and nitpicking - Apple is trying to stop garbage!
It's hard to go look in the app store and see what a dumpster fire it actually is and then claim Apple is trying. They aren't. They're just claiming that as marketing to keep their money making machine.
> It's hard to go look in the app store and see what a dumpster fire it actually is and then claim Apple is trying. They aren't.
You cannot make that claim unless you know how many apps Apple has rejected for being garbage. On one hand, developers complain Apple runs all kinds of checks on their apps before publishing on the App Store. On the other hand, users complain that App Store has too many low-quality apps. Both can be true at the same time if the stream of apps is high volume and low quality.
> I have no interest in installing a web app that could look innocuous today and be entirely different every time I hit F5.
Or as I have encountered several times over the years, it turned out to have vanished without a trace for whatever reason (author got bored, became ill, didn’t want to pay for the domain any more, etc) when I reach for it, sending me searching for an alternative in the midst of a task.
Self-contained binaries stored on my personal devices don’t do that, and one can usually find third party copies scattered across the internet long after the author stopped publishing/maintaining them.
This highlights the differences between what developers want vs. what (some) end users want. Developers love the web because they can change things and deploy instantly, they can have a single version of their app "out there" and not have to worry about clients running old software, and they can take their software down when it becomes inconvenient to maintain. Users on the other hand, like apps: They don't want their app changing out from under them suddenly. They want to be allowed to use the old version they are comfortable with and that's not stuffed with ads. And they want the assurance that the software will actually be there the next time they want to use it.
I personally have no love for web apps either. No matter how many well-behaving developers are out there, the median web developer has ruined the web as an app platform to the point where I view web software as generally hostile, ad-filled, spyware, that's under the control of and serves the web developer's interests over the end user's interests.
Interesting. Since we're talking about PWAs, which are essentially apps running in the sandbox of a web client (i.e. browser), the issue you raise could presumably be fixed in an instant with a client-side setting: "Do not update this app".
That improves the situation a little, but the user still doesn’t have an easy way to migrate the app to other browsers on the same machine or to new machines. With a self-contained binary you just copy the executable wherever and you’re done.
The other issue is that web browsers are dynamic environments (much more so than operating systems) and sometimes break/change things. Users who’ve frozen PWA updates don’t have any access to critical fixes. A lot of devs just wouldn’t support frozen versions.
In addition, it’s a lot easier to seek rent with a web app which is also likely a big factor.
I’m a dev and understand how web apps can be attractive to us, but as a user they irritate me. During my formative years, software by and large served the user over the dev, so flipping the scales entirely in my favor as a dev feels almost wrong.
I have no interest in installing a web app in almost all cases. I'm happy to visit one though, and I trust the browser sandbox to keep it from doing anything worse than making my device warm until I notice and close the tab.
Aside from the low-effort snark and lack of empathy towards someone's project, this is also how you filter people out of caring about software development at at a young age, and then who's going to keep the computer systems running?
It's professionally made slop, engineered precisely for maximum value extraction. This guy's app presumably didn't extract value successfully so they don't want it.
I periodically try to put something together. I don’t even care about publishing to the app store really, I mostly want to make stuff for myself for macOS.
My last attempt, it felt like Apple was no longer interested in the idea of hobbyist developers. The setup just to get the Xcode project setup felt like I needed to have a company and a website. When I selected something about iCloud, because I thought it would be nice if what I made synced to iCloud, I couldn’t even get started without paying $99, so I had to start again and choose a different option without it. And here I thought the $99 was just to publish to the store.
Considering how Apple started, this trend feels wrong. When I wanted to make a simple little app a few weeks ago, I ended up using python with webview. It seemed to be one of the few ways to make a little GUI app without boiling the ocean.
This is exactly what I've been observing as well. As soon as the App Store became a cash cow, the incentive to support non-commercial development went away. It's now a place constructed by a giant company, for giant companies.
I am on a formerly fairly active game app forum elsewhere and it's been dead for years. Indie developers are still probably making some releases, but the combination of Apple being unfriendly to small developers and the economics of the whole thing means it's close to dead. There were tons of experimental little $1 or $2 games in the early days but that seems to be gone. Even worse many of the old ones aren't playable anymore because they never made the transition to 64 bits and OS support for them is gone.
It's like a lot of tech trajectories. At first it was fairly easy and people did it, and then both the producer, consumer, and platform evolved off in some direction in an endless feedback cycle, and now a newcomer sees the whole ecosystem is all the way over there in some weird place and doesn't join it because why would you want to be over there, but the existing actors don't see it as strange because they acclimatized to each step along the way.
Recently I tried out tiktok for a day and couldn't fathom why I would possibly want to ever use this app. Same with Instagram. But people who followed their trajectory since their earlier days find them normal.
Facebook only made sense in the context of living on a college campus… I think it doesn’t quite fit this pattern because realistically users were rarely in the “good fit” case for only ~4 years. Then, for each user, it becomes this sort of awkward slowly decaying network as people move on.
Facebook was once a friend network and they added more and more advertising and slop to it. If you were the frog in the pot as it heated, it feels normal to you that your feed is entirely made of spam. If you're still out of the pot now, it seems foolish to jump in, unlike when it was lukewarm.
Maybe. I joined fairly early, still have an account, but did become pretty disengaged from it after graduation. So maybe I didn’t get the proper gradual boiling experience.
I still have a Facebook account, and will occasionally log in (most recently attempting to sell something on their craigslist equivalent). The default content shown in your "feed" or dashboard is more than 50% engagement bait and/or slop. I attempted to start flagging those posts as "never show me again," but it soon became apparent that it was a Sisyphean task, and I just logged out again.
There’s the “friends feed” in the app that has less garbage in it. I mean, these days it is just full of my friends posting pictures of their kids or reposting political things. But I can’t really blame Facebook for the fact that we got old and boring, and it doesn’t have the “suggested content” nonsense.
> it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to avoid the App Store sending the whole internet to your personal phone and address
That's an EU thing. If you don't publish in the EU you don't need to dox yourself.
It's also a very general European mindset thing. They have a very different approach to privacy there - they basically expect everyone's identity to be public, and then protect those identities from abuse, rather than the more US approach of letting you hide your identity so it can't be abused. You see supermarkets with the owner's full name plastered across the storefront underneath the franchise logo. "This store is Edeka John Smith"
There's something to this but it's still a slightly dodgy generalization.
A random counter-example from France. If you have a one-person small business (i.e. with a registered business number and the right to invoice), all personal information beyond the name is private by default, it cannot be looked up. The Nordic countries are perhaps closer to the image you're painting. Personal tax information is famously public in Sweden, for example.
But IMO differences are easy to exaggerate. Let's not forget that private phone numbers used to be published in paper directories - with home addresses! - everywhere, including America.
Nope, it's because of how Apple and Google choose to run their stores. Google and Apple are the middlemen between two sides of the transaction and its the author that actually sells these apps, while Valve is one side of the transaction and sells things based on the license granted by the content's author.
> I might be misremembering or misinterpreting, but it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to avoid the App Store sending the whole internet to your personal phone and address.
For something free I can get why this would seem unreasonable (modulo scams, for which this is a hoop would rather have than not), but if money's involved, a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole, and having the money be handled by a company (even if that company is just a one-man-show) honestly does not seem unreasonable.
If you want to bypass that, you just shouldn't publish to the App Store, which does (or at least is supposed to) have protections suitable for most people. You should still be able to make apps and use them without the App Store involved, then the individual human who wants that app can make decisions based in the specific app in question and the people behind it, but that's a separate conversation.
Yes, you’re right that much of this only comes up when you’re trying to charge money for an app.
However, if you’re running your own website you can make those decisions on your own without being forced into most of them.
Plenty of very large “reputable” companies obfuscate their physical address and phone number, and don’t even offer an email address for contact.
I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario?
Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts.
There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact.
Those platforms just have a half-decent to decent return policy and act as the middleman.
But when you’re on iOS you have all the burdens of a third-party supplier without all the benefits.
> Plenty of very large “reputable” companies obfuscate their physical address and phone number, and don’t even offer an email address for contact.
This is whataboutism. They should do that too. The fact they don't isn't an excuse for smaller devs or companies.
> I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario?
You should be able to contact the underlying manufacturer or whatever of any product you buy. Why should programs be different?
> Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts.
They should.
> There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact.
More whataboutism. You should have a guaranteed point of contact for what you buy there too.
I find this hard to believe, since Google Play store requires much less info, and doesn't disclose it to consumers (AFAIK).
Did the EU specifically demand this from Apple? Did they specifically require that consumers must be able to contact developers?
Or is this another "spin" by Apple to make the EU look bad when it imposes consumer protection that is bad for Apples revenue? Like they did with "chargers", "cables" and like the ad- and surveillance-industry has done quite successfully with their "spin" on the GDPR (making it seem like the EU or GDPR requires cookie banners - which it doesnt)
I'm not published in Google Play and don't have Android to check for myself, but when I look it up, I find claims that they do publish names and addresses for paid apps / apps with in-app purchases.
I'm pretty sure the Google Play Store does require this. I remember a few years ago (no longer at the company) having to verify a phone number and maybe address that is posted publicly.
> However, if you’re running your own website you can make those decisions on your own without being forced into most of them.
You will however pay for that privilege - a lot of people don't seem to realise their home address is in the WHOIS data, because they didn't pay the protection money to redact it
> a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole
Apple does not provide any mechanism for developers to issue a refund, or even look up or view your purchase or subscription - so there is nothing a developer can do here besides refer you to apple support.
(Although as a developer I would like to be able to do this, because customers are very confused by it)
I would want that hoop for free apps too. If the developer is, for example, found to be mishandling private data, or maybe sharing my intellectual property, someone needs to answer for it.
> For something free I can get why this would seem unreasonable (modulo scams, for which this is a hoop I would rather have than not), but if money's involved, a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole, and having the money be handled by a company (even if that company is just a one-man-show) honestly does not seem unreasonable.
You're buying a digital good. You can already get refunds. An email address is fine for contact.
You definitely don't need someone's physical home address, nor an actual phone number.
You'll still find people praising Apple (maybe even Google) for their review process even though their store is full of garbage. Really justifies their 30% cut.
> it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to avoid the App Store sending the whole internet to your personal phone and address.
This is an EU requirement, and Apple didn't do this before EU required it. All app marketplaces have the same requirement for EU
> On a website you can just not deal with any of that
This may violate other EU compliance requirements but sure there's obviously no authority determining your compliance before allowing you to publish on web
Back when I used to freelance, somebody once paid me a scant fee to build a pretty cool online tool for music teachers, basically an interactive piano. I checked in on the website a few years afterwards and found that they had wrapped it into an app and been selling it for $5/install ever since I made it for them. Probably my fault for not licensing the software I wrote for them (I was basically a kid at the time) but it still bothers me.
I like making maps, and I wanted to do a certain bend on a very specific kind of online map, filling a gap I noticed in existing maps.
The idea of an app really appealed to me (at first), but the more I thought about it the more I didn't want to deal with iOS and then Android and then maintaining parallel functionality on the web and all that mess just for a fairly-local hobby project that I make no money off of.
So, I just kept it as a website (which is also a PWA) with extensive testing on every platform I can think of. It's just worked out so well and is so, so, so much less complicated. And if I abandon it, should just keep working for years so long as the website stays up (or until browsers start doing something very different JS-wise.)
Hello fellow map maker! I feel like I’m in the same boat. PWAs work great, I wish Apple would treat them as first class apps. I tinkered with launching a TWA for my app on the Play Store and it works pretty well but I haven’t published it yet. Probably a harder market to monetize than iOS but it seems like good advertising just to have the listing up
I did something similar. I wanted to tell myself I had done it, but also it was an inexpensive learning experience and I got an app that I wanted out of it.
And I think I got that. I like how mine does what it does (maps breaker panels and records home maintenance and stuff) without someone trying to sell me something.
But once I realized what advertising costs everywhere, I pretty quickly realized that app exists essentially just for me.
And that’s ok, but it’s a stark contrast from the goldrush years of (even garbage) apps making money.
It's about tracking. Most of the money in the industry comes from knowing precisely when you were on the toilet every day and they can't get that from a web app.
I have been publishing apps as a solo developer for a long time and every app I've published has been something I wanted for myself. For example, I spent so much time here on hacker news. So I wanted an app for a better experience. So I built my app almost a decade ago. Then people requested me build one for Android, so I built that too. I've similarly built various macOS apps which I use daily for myself.
If anyone is interested, it's called HACK and I am writing this comment from it. Link is in my bio.
I did something similar, for similar reasons. In the end I just did whatever to get it published. If you show up at my door, I'll pour you your choice of beer/coffee. But I agree, it feels very invasive!
On the web side of things DNS only recently started being more private - 10+ years ago it was common to have your phone + postal address on whois.
Two take aways from my experience
1. I'm happy that I invested more in the web
2. The app store gives you distribution - I have a few websites with almost 0 traffic, but the app I wrote gets a handful of downloads a week almost 2 years later?
>10+ years ago it was common to have your phone + postal address on whois
This is the .dk TLD today, and it's the reason I've never posted my website here. The .dk registry (punktum.dk) is run by absolute clowns.
On the other hand, the first thing I do before spending money on a danish website is "whois eksempel.dk", and if it doesn't return a danish address (and wasn't created recently), I'm out.
Yeah it’s all a pain. One thing that helped was using hotwire native. It is basically a web view but it bridges the mobile app with your website and wraps it into a mobile app. This is the only way I can make apps now. Flutter never worked well for me.
I wish PWAs took off, or a "desktop" environment for phones and tablets that allows me to save a simple website shortcut as an app.
I want my phone to be the portal to the places I want to go to and the things I want to see. I want to have the same experience going to a web app or website I regularly visit as with a normal app.
Like, I want to click on an icon and be there. I don't want to click on the browser and then find the tab.
Also, I want PWAs and website shortcuts to be first class citizens. I want a normal icon, not one that has some sort of visual marker that it's not a normal app.
It's been an ongoing annoyance, but it's getting to be more commonplace of an issue because there are a lot of people building cool things on atproto, and they generally start as a web app before they maybe build a phone app.
You can already do this, browser allow you to add a website as an icon and it acts completely like an app. Even iOS allows this, try adding HN to your home screen.
I prefer native apps over web apps, but I’m honestly at the point now where I just want to make voice or chat commands and get an output, instead of learning some self-important UI/UX person’s custom UI controls aka “””design system”””
The fundamental problem with the internet is that hosting sucks and no one wants to do it. It's thankless and it's expensive to maintain, both time and money. Apps are a way to not worry about that.
By the way, the link doesn't load for me, so I used the archive to read it. https://archive.ph/ByFBN
Simply hosting a front-end only app is almost free on several platforms (e.g. Cloudflare). Certainly less than the $99 Apple developer membership fee.
It starts getting more expensive once you add back-end servers and databases and whatnot, but you’d be needing those with the App-approach too if your featureset requires that.
No, the fundamental problem is ios. There are a bunch of features that ios locks down so that you are essentially forced to use apps. Want to send push notifications? You need an app. Want to be able to wake your app up in the background to do stuff intermittently? You need an app. Want to get your app on the home screen? Once again, you need an app. And before anyone says you can do this with PWAs, yes, that's true. But the steps required from your users in order to get a PWA running on ios are so cumbersome (by design) that nobody even bothers. And since ios has something like 60% of market share in the US, we're stuck with apps.
You forgot to mention the part where, to use any of the PWA features, you now have to get the user to close safari, and re-open the page via the icon now on the homescreen. Not exactly easy UI.
> The fundamental problem with the internet is that hosting sucks and no one wants to do it. It's thankless and it's expensive to maintain, both time and money. Apps are a way to not worry about that.
No it's not. Hosting a web app is one of the most trivial things you can do these days, far more trivial than attempting to get an app into the app store. Hosting API's and Databases is a little more difficult but you still need those things if you're building an app.
There is no world in which getting your app signed, getting it approved, getting every update approved and paying $X/year to Apple or Google is easier than hosting a webapp, even if you host it in the most difficult way possible (on say AWS + Cloudfront). And even that method isn't that difficult, just moreso relative to other ways of hosting a webapp.
> The fundamental problem with the internet is that hosting sucks and no one wants to do it. It's thankless and it's expensive to maintain, both time and money. Apps are a way to not worry about that.
Except it seems like plenty of apps these days are just vehicles to give web-based services some native abilities, so they're practically useless without a data connection.
The reason people want an 'App' instead of a website is purely marketing related. Apps are sexy and native, and have better distribution. Websites are old, crappy things where you can't always control exactly what the user is going to see very well, and sharing a slick URL isn't always easy.
By "marketing" do you mean "experience"? Because absolutely no one is marketing apps as being superior, but instead this is just the experience of users.
There's a weird conspiratorial thing that people do about this whole topic that is so easily debunked. For instance "Apple wanted apps more than PWAs!". Android powers about 73% of the world's smartphones, yet PWAs are irrelevant on the platform.
Web apps can be incredibly powerful, but there's just a massively lower bar in the web app domain, historically. Like people are used to the website being dogshit, a mishmash of broken functionality, terrible layout quirks, slow responsiveness, and so on. Because that is generally acceptable to the web community, where it is deadly to an app.
Like I think it's hilariously ironic that the website telling us that the app could have been a website is currently completely broken, unable to handle a relatively tiny amount of traffic.
Yes, "marketing". Ability to market your business, not marketing the concept of an app.
Businesses have an app developed because they feel the market demands it. Their marketing departments feel they have to be able to tell prospective customers "we have an app!" and if they can't, they feel they'll be seen as inferior, not with the times, thereby losing customers.
I totally agree with the article that apps shouldn't be the automatic first choice, but that's the way it is. We've reached the stage where it's seen by users as the default. App icons on the homescreen can be seen, for many, as the modern alternative to bookmarks in the browser.
Businesses started advertising that they had an app because user's preferred apps, having had so many poor experiences with websites and web "apps" that the entire field was tainted.
This is 100% a "made your own bed" kind of thing. Again, the general standards among web apps for years were terrible, and users became accustomed that using a website on a mobile device was a brutal experience. Things have gotten a lot better, and honestly AI tooling should massively improve the space, but people really need to be honest about root causes.
I mean...a local grocery store advertises their "app" and it's just their website wrapped into a webview, and it is just total dogshit. Because they brough the extremely poor standards they have in their web domain into the app domain, and it simply doesn't transfer.
I don't agree with your thesis that users hated websites on mobile.
Apps initially looked like the fancy thing to do (so marketing departments loved them), and very quickly snowballed into becoming simply "the way it's done" on mobile.
Most of them are just their website wrapped into a webview. They're sometimes awful, but they mostly do the job well enough - exactly as well as if it was a website instead (coming back to this thread's article).
> Most of them are just their website wrapped into a webview.
Such as? Give some examples, which should be easy given that it's "most", right?
In the linked piece it details one that is so exceptionally trash that it is universally hated. I mean, ostensibly it isn't even allowed by appstore / play store rules, and it's a shit, lazy thing to do.
My thesis is that the standards for web teams were often much, much lower than for app teams. Where tolerance for shit, tolerance for slow and inconsistent behaviours, and so on was just much, much more common.
That is why there was such a fracture. And it's why the "webview wrapped website" is universally reviled trash.
Do websites have to be bad? Of course they don't. But the norms of the realm made users jaded.
> Because absolutely no one is marketing apps as being superior, but instead this is just the experience of users.
I guess you haven't used the mobile web? Practically any website you use covers half the page with a banner saying don't use the website, the app is SOOO much better.
Nah, you can look at my GH profile, where I link to some open stuff, but I’m working on apps for a specialized demographic, right now, that don’t benefit from being HN hugged.
Of course it should have been a Webpage. You can even code a whole modern map application on the Web, that's under 3 Mo gzipped, instead of the 600 Mo Java applications that we're served.
> But at least I (and the rest of our group, whom I’ve shared it with) now get the choice about how we access this content.
What I want to know is: How many people actually used the website? How many people prefer the website?
It's easy to forget that many people use their computers (and phones) differently than the typical HNer.
Also: I wonder how easy/hard it is to do this with an LLM / vibecoding? Seems like there could be a Napster moment for bad apps where the LLM installs the app in a sandbox and makes educated guesses about how to turn it into a simple website.
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[ 585 ms ] story [ 2998 ms ] threadMost web apps suck too though so I guess pick your poison. My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.
Who are 'they' and how do you know what they want
All examples of first party social media clients.
A minority of native app developers, I'm willing to bet.
But, AFAIK, you need the server for push, though. It used to be possible to program entirely from the client with this proposed feature but AFAIK it's abandoned: https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/m...
That's it, an app installed on a mobile device is a much more effective attentional hook than a website that must be either bookmarked or remembered. It is like inviting a door-to-door salesman to your house, of course they will take the invitation.
And the P in PWA has become "Personal" ... vibe coding apps with no backend for non-developers for their _personal_ needs e.g. a create a job hunting app for my son specific to the types of jobs he's looking for. If I update it, it updates on his phone plus he can sync to his laptop via WebRTC.
My strong belief is they realized people were prone to spending absurd amounts of money in Facebook games, so they hijacked "social gaming" and spent 20 years deteriorating in defense of it.
Consider this timeline:
- Apple launches iPhone in 2007 with web apps central
- Zynga launches "Zynga Poker" on FB in 2007
- Apple launches App Store in 2008 with single-purchase apps
- Zynga hits 40 million monthly users in 2009 Apple implements IAP and defensive policies in 2009
- Hundreds of millions of people playing these games in 2010
... Apple goes to war with, bans and eventually kills Flash, the core technology to these games, and all of it moves to mobile and IAP
One criticism, though: I wish you would have made a simple form-based alternative to the app's population mechanism, rather than just make the one-off consumer for yourself(/those you shared with). Definitely way more work and not something you should have to do. But that would have been a cherry on top. Not only prevent needing the app for viewing, but also removing future incentive for an organization turning to an app like that in the first place.
Yeah, I considered that. I even wrote the code in such a way that it supports that. But I'm concerned about the legality of distributing it. Given that it hits API endpoints that were expected to be private to the developers' app, giving away a "tool" that bypasses the app (which hosts ads, albeit for their other products, and so serves as a money-maker for the app's owner) could be illegal.
At the very least, it could be a violation of the terms of service or just an annoyance to the app developer, either of which could lead them to trying to stop me from doing it, which would be an inconvenience. So maybe I'll wait until after the trip, when the page becomes useless to me, and THEN open-source it!
I know hosting an entire sign up process and user content is not something you can just build and forget about, so my thought was that a sufficiently decent website could bundle a package that could be hosted on existing organization infrastructure. A zip file of the user's content that they could upload to dropbox/drive/sharepoint/etc. Then the consumer page would match a url slug to a package file and serve the content that way.
It's... a lot of stuff for a quick workaround project. And it's a pathology of an engineer to make solutions where solutions aren't needed. So grain of salt on any of that. But I did want to clarify since you were willing to engage with the concept, as understood. Hopefully this proposition strikes you as less concerning/illegal! I never want to steal anyone's work or infrastructure. I just believe that better alternatives - even ones borne of seeing how badly other people are doing it - can and should win out, if people ever provide them.
The short version: ad blockers work on browsers but not apps[0].
[0] https://pluralistic.net/2024/01/30/go-nuts-meine-kerle
Apps like YouTube are an exception, but there are other ways around that on Android.
Web traffic is so diluted and low signal.
Thie assertion is extremely funny to me. Historically we come from an "app culture". Back in the day, around 2000 or so, if you wanted some functionality, you ran an application. You ran software in your computer.
Then on the early 2000s people started migrating their software web" , inventing "SaaS" (software as a service" .
I remember my young self being strongly opposed to that, because I saw little sense in constraining what you could do with a scripting language, when you could easily get the "networking" capabilities adding tcp/ip to your software .
But the web and Javascript won, mostly due to control (there was advertising in software since the 90s, for example Opera or GetRight had ad banners) .
The feature and mobile phones came and people started to migrate to "apps" again. So we came full circle.
Native apps would be the better platform in my eyes if the Operating Systems would be better in terms of letting a user manage what a native app have access to and can do.
But currently they are preferred by companies despite more dev effort because they can get more user data without the user having easy ways to prevent that. And of course showing ads without the user being easily able to block them
In the 2010s the model inverted: now you need to keep an entire browser open to use google chat, and people try to get you to install an app to read a web page.
In corporate IT, for instance, you have to roll out new versions of software all the time. There are better solutions for managing desktop fleets than there were back then, but with a web app you just update the server and... you're done!
- well-designed apps retain enough state to be useful offline or in places with spotty coverage; PWAs can kinda be made to work like this but IIRC iOS will happily evict them under disk pressure; - notifications. I've read that Apple have implemented them for home screen installed web apps but for reasons unknown I have not seen this in action even once.
IMO the reason we got to this place is twofold:
- apps give companies a spot on your Home Screen and allow you to develop a habit of opening it. I suspect Apple are very aware of this, which is why they continue to make it very difficult to install a web app to your home screen.
- notifications. Which, again, draw a returning audience
> It reports tracking data associated with your Google Account back to the developers.
Fortunately webpages never do any tracking whatsoever, let alone “Gobshite LLC and its 1131 partners need your permission for (contd. p94)”
Now, I’ll be the first to admit that my actual app is pretty much garbage. I don’t expect it to be popular. It’s basically a worse version of stuff that is already available.
I expected this to be a learning exercise about the process of getting stuff published.
Long story short, by the end of the ordeal I was somewhat surprised that anyone independent bothers to publish apps at all. The amount of red tape and nitpicking by the initial app review process is astounding. The business/legal side is also annoying. I might be misremembering or misinterpreting, but it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to avoid the App Store sending the whole internet to your personal phone and address.
On a website you can just not deal with any of that, and not give Apple $99/year just to keep your app on the store.
And we haven’t even gotten into the big royalties you’re paying for App Store purchases.
Still, I understand the appeal at some point, just not for an app like OP was forced to use. I certainly wouldn’t want to use something like Immich or Opencloud without an app: these apps need to deeply integrate with my phone to be truly useful.
This specifically is due to EU trader laws. The Play Store has the exact same thing.
You can claim you don’t fall under the definition of “trader” to keep your personal information hidden, assuming you actually aren’t one. You may not be if you aren’t supporting yourself through your apps.
In my experience, Apple’s approach here is better than how Google does it. Play Store doesn’t even have the option to deny being a trader. They just always publish your personal information if you intend on selling anything. At least Google is up front about it, though.
I have no interest in installing a web app that could look innocuous today and be entirely different every time I hit F5.
Just weeks ago they published a sanctioned Russian bank's app masquerading as a pomedoro timer lmao.
Search right now in the App Store for "Morpho" and you'll find a "Morpho: Network" app. That app says it's some sort of TODO/Note taking app. It uses very broad language in the screenshots and assets from morpho.org (a decentralized protocol).
Once you open the app, it immediately downloads another bundle using OTA updates and shows an entirely different app where you "connect your wallet". You can imagine what happens next.
Section 230 immunity baby!
That's been the case with native apps for a long time now too.
It's such a weird thing to be concerned about though. Your phone automatically updates apps by default so they can suddenly look different later. And even then, so what? If the change was malicious just stop using it? Apps are sandboxed, websites are sandboxed, you'll be fine.
What's worse is that there's practically no process to report any sort of rulebreaking, so someone could be mining crypto or running a residential proxy [1] through the mobile game I've been playing, and I'd be none the wiser.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48864252
Not that it doesn’t occasionally happen, but at that point you’re trying to dodge the police… as compared to there being no police in the first place.
All the time I hear that "PhotoSync" is good or I install an app for a business that I deal with like my bank or the local gas station.
On the other hand I feel like it is safe and usually worthwhile to browse the web -- even the sketchy parts, like the web sites that lead me into rabbit holes right out of Videodrome.
You cannot make that claim unless you know how many apps Apple has rejected for being garbage. On one hand, developers complain Apple runs all kinds of checks on their apps before publishing on the App Store. On the other hand, users complain that App Store has too many low-quality apps. Both can be true at the same time if the stream of apps is high volume and low quality.
and failing at it, because that garbage got published on the app store.
Or as I have encountered several times over the years, it turned out to have vanished without a trace for whatever reason (author got bored, became ill, didn’t want to pay for the domain any more, etc) when I reach for it, sending me searching for an alternative in the midst of a task.
Self-contained binaries stored on my personal devices don’t do that, and one can usually find third party copies scattered across the internet long after the author stopped publishing/maintaining them.
I personally have no love for web apps either. No matter how many well-behaving developers are out there, the median web developer has ruined the web as an app platform to the point where I view web software as generally hostile, ad-filled, spyware, that's under the control of and serves the web developer's interests over the end user's interests.
The other issue is that web browsers are dynamic environments (much more so than operating systems) and sometimes break/change things. Users who’ve frozen PWA updates don’t have any access to critical fixes. A lot of devs just wouldn’t support frozen versions.
I’m a dev and understand how web apps can be attractive to us, but as a user they irritate me. During my formative years, software by and large served the user over the dev, so flipping the scales entirely in my favor as a dev feels almost wrong.
It’s working. Your low quality project you weren’t really committed to got filtered.
I got apps on the store before age 18 because I did not believe they were low quality.
You also can make software without selling it on a store.
My last attempt, it felt like Apple was no longer interested in the idea of hobbyist developers. The setup just to get the Xcode project setup felt like I needed to have a company and a website. When I selected something about iCloud, because I thought it would be nice if what I made synced to iCloud, I couldn’t even get started without paying $99, so I had to start again and choose a different option without it. And here I thought the $99 was just to publish to the store.
Considering how Apple started, this trend feels wrong. When I wanted to make a simple little app a few weeks ago, I ended up using python with webview. It seemed to be one of the few ways to make a little GUI app without boiling the ocean.
Recently I tried out tiktok for a day and couldn't fathom why I would possibly want to ever use this app. Same with Instagram. But people who followed their trajectory since their earlier days find them normal.
Same with Facebook, actually. And Google.
I agree with everything else you said though.
That's an EU thing. If you don't publish in the EU you don't need to dox yourself.
A random counter-example from France. If you have a one-person small business (i.e. with a registered business number and the right to invoice), all personal information beyond the name is private by default, it cannot be looked up. The Nordic countries are perhaps closer to the image you're painting. Personal tax information is famously public in Sweden, for example.
But IMO differences are easy to exaggerate. Let's not forget that private phone numbers used to be published in paper directories - with home addresses! - everywhere, including America.
Unless I’m mistaken, Steam and GOG games aren’t listing the address of the game developers in the EU, but I admit that I might be mistaken.
For something free I can get why this would seem unreasonable (modulo scams, for which this is a hoop would rather have than not), but if money's involved, a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole, and having the money be handled by a company (even if that company is just a one-man-show) honestly does not seem unreasonable.
If you want to bypass that, you just shouldn't publish to the App Store, which does (or at least is supposed to) have protections suitable for most people. You should still be able to make apps and use them without the App Store involved, then the individual human who wants that app can make decisions based in the specific app in question and the people behind it, but that's a separate conversation.
However, if you’re running your own website you can make those decisions on your own without being forced into most of them.
Plenty of very large “reputable” companies obfuscate their physical address and phone number, and don’t even offer an email address for contact.
I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario?
Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts.
There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact.
Those platforms just have a half-decent to decent return policy and act as the middleman.
But when you’re on iOS you have all the burdens of a third-party supplier without all the benefits.
This is whataboutism. They should do that too. The fact they don't isn't an excuse for smaller devs or companies.
> I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario?
You should be able to contact the underlying manufacturer or whatever of any product you buy. Why should programs be different?
> Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts.
They should.
> There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact.
More whataboutism. You should have a guaranteed point of contact for what you buy there too.
The EU decided so, and Apple didn't require this before EU did
Did the EU specifically demand this from Apple? Did they specifically require that consumers must be able to contact developers?
Or is this another "spin" by Apple to make the EU look bad when it imposes consumer protection that is bad for Apples revenue? Like they did with "chargers", "cables" and like the ad- and surveillance-industry has done quite successfully with their "spin" on the GDPR (making it seem like the EU or GDPR requires cookie banners - which it doesnt)
This changed recently.
You will however pay for that privilege - a lot of people don't seem to realise their home address is in the WHOIS data, because they didn't pay the protection money to redact it
Apple does not provide any mechanism for developers to issue a refund, or even look up or view your purchase or subscription - so there is nothing a developer can do here besides refer you to apple support.
(Although as a developer I would like to be able to do this, because customers are very confused by it)
You're buying a digital good. You can already get refunds. An email address is fine for contact.
You definitely don't need someone's physical home address, nor an actual phone number.
I'm finding it hard to reconcile a) how difficult the process and b) the load of absolute garbage apps that are out there.
This is an EU requirement, and Apple didn't do this before EU required it. All app marketplaces have the same requirement for EU
> On a website you can just not deal with any of that
This may violate other EU compliance requirements but sure there's obviously no authority determining your compliance before allowing you to publish on web
The idea of an app really appealed to me (at first), but the more I thought about it the more I didn't want to deal with iOS and then Android and then maintaining parallel functionality on the web and all that mess just for a fairly-local hobby project that I make no money off of.
So, I just kept it as a website (which is also a PWA) with extensive testing on every platform I can think of. It's just worked out so well and is so, so, so much less complicated. And if I abandon it, should just keep working for years so long as the website stays up (or until browsers start doing something very different JS-wise.)
(You can see it at https://trailmaps.app if you're interested.)
And I think I got that. I like how mine does what it does (maps breaker panels and records home maintenance and stuff) without someone trying to sell me something.
But once I realized what advertising costs everywhere, I pretty quickly realized that app exists essentially just for me.
And that’s ok, but it’s a stark contrast from the goldrush years of (even garbage) apps making money.
The app review process is explicitly meant to keep out garbage apps.
Sounds like it worked as designed?
It didn't, because his admittedly garbage app ended up on the app store, because the app review process doesn't actually keep out garbage apps.
If anyone is interested, it's called HACK and I am writing this comment from it. Link is in my bio.
On the web side of things DNS only recently started being more private - 10+ years ago it was common to have your phone + postal address on whois.
Two take aways from my experience 1. I'm happy that I invested more in the web 2. The app store gives you distribution - I have a few websites with almost 0 traffic, but the app I wrote gets a handful of downloads a week almost 2 years later?
This is the .dk TLD today, and it's the reason I've never posted my website here. The .dk registry (punktum.dk) is run by absolute clowns.
On the other hand, the first thing I do before spending money on a danish website is "whois eksempel.dk", and if it doesn't return a danish address (and wasn't created recently), I'm out.
I want my phone to be the portal to the places I want to go to and the things I want to see. I want to have the same experience going to a web app or website I regularly visit as with a normal app.
Like, I want to click on an icon and be there. I don't want to click on the browser and then find the tab.
Also, I want PWAs and website shortcuts to be first class citizens. I want a normal icon, not one that has some sort of visual marker that it's not a normal app.
It's been an ongoing annoyance, but it's getting to be more commonplace of an issue because there are a lot of people building cool things on atproto, and they generally start as a web app before they maybe build a phone app.
This has nothing to do with ‘sharing’ something
By the way, the link doesn't load for me, so I used the archive to read it. https://archive.ph/ByFBN
Shipping a local app eliminates a lot of those headaches.
Open Safari, navigate to the web app, tap the Share button, scroll down, and select 'Add to Home Screen'.
No it's not. Hosting a web app is one of the most trivial things you can do these days, far more trivial than attempting to get an app into the app store. Hosting API's and Databases is a little more difficult but you still need those things if you're building an app.
There is no world in which getting your app signed, getting it approved, getting every update approved and paying $X/year to Apple or Google is easier than hosting a webapp, even if you host it in the most difficult way possible (on say AWS + Cloudfront). And even that method isn't that difficult, just moreso relative to other ways of hosting a webapp.
Make your website static and host it on a CDN. There's nothing expensive or thankless about it.
Stop over engineering.
Except it seems like plenty of apps these days are just vehicles to give web-based services some native abilities, so they're practically useless without a data connection.
There's a weird conspiratorial thing that people do about this whole topic that is so easily debunked. For instance "Apple wanted apps more than PWAs!". Android powers about 73% of the world's smartphones, yet PWAs are irrelevant on the platform.
Web apps can be incredibly powerful, but there's just a massively lower bar in the web app domain, historically. Like people are used to the website being dogshit, a mishmash of broken functionality, terrible layout quirks, slow responsiveness, and so on. Because that is generally acceptable to the web community, where it is deadly to an app.
Like I think it's hilariously ironic that the website telling us that the app could have been a website is currently completely broken, unable to handle a relatively tiny amount of traffic.
Businesses have an app developed because they feel the market demands it. Their marketing departments feel they have to be able to tell prospective customers "we have an app!" and if they can't, they feel they'll be seen as inferior, not with the times, thereby losing customers.
I totally agree with the article that apps shouldn't be the automatic first choice, but that's the way it is. We've reached the stage where it's seen by users as the default. App icons on the homescreen can be seen, for many, as the modern alternative to bookmarks in the browser.
Businesses started advertising that they had an app because user's preferred apps, having had so many poor experiences with websites and web "apps" that the entire field was tainted.
This is 100% a "made your own bed" kind of thing. Again, the general standards among web apps for years were terrible, and users became accustomed that using a website on a mobile device was a brutal experience. Things have gotten a lot better, and honestly AI tooling should massively improve the space, but people really need to be honest about root causes.
I mean...a local grocery store advertises their "app" and it's just their website wrapped into a webview, and it is just total dogshit. Because they brough the extremely poor standards they have in their web domain into the app domain, and it simply doesn't transfer.
https://dennisforbes.ca/blog/microblog/2026/05/terrible_mobi...
Apps initially looked like the fancy thing to do (so marketing departments loved them), and very quickly snowballed into becoming simply "the way it's done" on mobile.
Most of them are just their website wrapped into a webview. They're sometimes awful, but they mostly do the job well enough - exactly as well as if it was a website instead (coming back to this thread's article).
Such as? Give some examples, which should be easy given that it's "most", right?
In the linked piece it details one that is so exceptionally trash that it is universally hated. I mean, ostensibly it isn't even allowed by appstore / play store rules, and it's a shit, lazy thing to do.
My thesis is that the standards for web teams were often much, much lower than for app teams. Where tolerance for shit, tolerance for slow and inconsistent behaviours, and so on was just much, much more common.
That is why there was such a fracture. And it's why the "webview wrapped website" is universally reviled trash.
Do websites have to be bad? Of course they don't. But the norms of the realm made users jaded.
I guess you haven't used the mobile web? Practically any website you use covers half the page with a banner saying don't use the website, the app is SOOO much better.
However, there's a lot of stuff that does, indeed, require a native app.
That's the stuff I like to do. Doesn't really scale to Web pages.
Definitely nah. Life’s too short, and I’m already in the back nine.
Sorry. I should have known better, and refrained from commenting at all.
My bad. I thought it was a serious subject for discussion. I enjoyed the post.
Have a great day!
> Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it.
What I want to know is: How many people actually used the website? How many people prefer the website?
It's easy to forget that many people use their computers (and phones) differently than the typical HNer.
Also: I wonder how easy/hard it is to do this with an LLM / vibecoding? Seems like there could be a Napster moment for bad apps where the LLM installs the app in a sandbox and makes educated guesses about how to turn it into a simple website.