RCS requires Google account and Google Play services, completely useless, I'm better off with Whatsapp not requiring any of these to function, heck I xan even download APK directly from whatsapp website without play store or aurora
We've announced our plan to add RCS with Messaging Layer Security (MLS) for E2EE compatible with Google Messages and iOS. SMS/MMS will only be a fallback once that's implemented.
I don't know enough about how RCS works, but if I have an existing conversation in Google Messages would I be able to migrate it over to when this gets implemented?
For the context, the vast majority of carriers do RCS with Google's RCS servers (https://github.com/phhusson/rcs-scanner). I'm a bit rusty, but to my knowledge the only exceptions are Jio in India, all Chinese telcos, and some Japenese telcos.
Of course it is relevant privacy-wise (Google still gather a lot of metadata about who speaks to who and when), but that's not even the reason I'm mentioning it.
In the RCS specification, there are three lines on a killer-feature: device attestation. A server can whitelist which devices are allowed to connect to it. And of course Google uses this, allowing only Google-certified devices and Apple devices.
And then, there is actually one RCS client for Google's RCS servers. Because Google Messages doesn't use RCS, it uses a custom protocol based on protobuf. My personal guess is that this protobuf is a 1-to-1 matching with actual RCS, and it's both-way compatible. But still, that means that potentially the Google device-attestation won't work with an RCS client.
Sibling comments say that GrapheneOS plan on implementing it. I think it can reasonably work. TBH I'm expecting that giving a LLM the publicly available information about RCS on microG should give a working "send message" within a day (even when using Google apps rather than microG, it's just that the microG work explains the API). And once RCS work in GrapheneOS' message app, it should be pretty straightforward to port to microG, so yay. However I have to admit I'm not optimist about how long it will keep working. I'd say we are two years away from Google enforcing RKP device integrity for RCS, and uh, good luck passing that.
Of course, I'm hoping that, in the EU, the DMA will break this Google/Apple-only device-attestation, but I'm not aware of anyone pushing that ATM.
With a seemingly insurmountable workload - maintain an actually secure OS fork - for a small team, I wonder how GrapheneOS prioritizes things like messaging apps? I'm not saying it's wrong at all; I am just interested in the thinking inside a project like that.
I can imagine many reasons to devote resources to it:
* A platform is only as good as its apps. If they want to grow GOS in the general public, it requires a good SMS/MMS messaging app.
* LLM tools greatly reduce development costs, especially for well-known functions like text messaging.
* Without secure messaging (as far as SMS/MMS can be secure), the platform security is greatly reduced.
* GOS got a big donation, or has a volunteer that wants to do messaging ...
But idk what I'm talking about. What is their approach?
Well they're going to be shipping GOS on Motorola and I think some other devices, so basic things like the messaging app need to actually have some polish to them. I really like GrapheneOS overall as-is, but the messaging app felt like baby's first texting app. Not necessarily their fault since it's pretty much straight out of AOSP if I understand correctly. But any time I've installed GrapheneOS, the messaging app is one of two things I must replace every time (the other being the downright bad AOSP keyboard).
If they fix(ed) their messaging app and their keyboard, then they've really eliminated a lot of potential complaints if a less tech-savvy crowd ends up buying future Motorolas.
I you look at the commits of the new Messages app it's mostly made by 2 people whose Github profiles show them as employees of GrapheneOS and who are mostly committing to different system apps. So I assume they have a separate team of devs whose job it is to make the system apps.
IIRC when they started first announced their replacement for the AOSP camera they said they hired a developer specifically for it.
A bunch of the AOSP apps feel like you have to rewrite them for modern standards now and then you can basically have them in maintenance mode for years. The AOSP messaging app has also lasted for 15+ (?) years and has basically had no maintenance from Google for many years.
Modernizing these apps seems very high-impact. These are the very first things a new user sees and after the initial modernization, they should be relatively cheap to maintain.
I know this isn't the solution you are looking for, but there is a fairly simple workaround and IMO it is superior: set up a Samba server or a Nextcloud instance, either at home or in the cloud, place it with behind a Wireguard tunnel, and don't store anything on the phone itself other than apps and things like maps for OsmAnd that can be redownloaded if lost. The Nextcloud app can automatically sync photos or other files too.
If my phone were lost, stolen or destroyed, I would simply revoke its Wireguard key, buy a new Pixel, flash Graphene, and provision a new Wireguard key. Essentially no data of value would be lost, and restoring my apps and settings manually would take an hour tops. Admittedly, I don't use many apps, so YMMV.
The lack of root is only significant because unlike in other vendors the built-in backup doesn't work reliably, and you can't use third party software.
But I'm very hopeful, recently they released this Messages update, they're working on introducing native RCS somehow (no idea how but I wish them well), and they recently made a first-class automated call recording.
Very few of them will support RCS (I think currently only Google Messages?), which GrapheneOS also wants to support.
I agree that a new backup system is also high impact, but there can be more than one high-impact thing, and the Message app is really low-hanging fruit.
GrapheneOS already supports using Google Messages with RCS. Google Messages is essentially the only RCS app for Android and it's the only one supporting end-to-end encryption. There were other apps such as a Samsung one but they died out and are nearly entirely only still around on outdated devices as a legacy app. We don't want people to need to use Google Messages for RCS and plan to add it to our Messaging app.
Currently only Google Messages supports RCS indeed, so Messages is not a replacement yet.
Personally I don't need RCS so I simply use Textra since forever as it's far better than Messages, but lack of backup is impacting everyone much more - no other app can be used to back up the OS.
GrapheneOS has made a big push to hire a bunch of experienced, talented app devs, and they have been slowly chipping away at Messaging for a few months. They now have the resources to take on the AOSP apps and resume with the GrapheneOS apps. The rest of the AOSP apps are also planned to be overhauled.
They also plan to eventually support RCS in the Messaging app.
> Iirc they said something like 2 million in donations in 2025.
That's not enough for 14 devs, plus infrastructure, etc.
> There's estimated 500k users so if 25% donated 10 dollars a year that's 1.25 million.
Unfortunately, 25% would be extraordinary for any project.
They should make their financing public (and maybe they do), being a non-profit and also asking people to trust them with their security. Funding provides influence: if 50% came from adtech or public surveillance companies (e.g., Flock, Palantir, etc.), then people would have questions.
Yeah it is. Their infrastructure costs are super tiny, the biggest percent of funding goes to pay the dev team, and many are paid a wage comparable to where they live, they dont get inflated US software dev wages or anything.
Most of what they earn is public as a result of the donation method, like crypto. And most donors are completely anonymous.
GrapheneOS does not accept any funding with strings attached.
Unfortunately, 25% would be extraordinary for any project.
Though they were stating $10 per year. You only need 2.1% of the users to donate $10 monthly to get to the same amount. I think GrapheneOS is one of those projects that is really important to their users, so I wouldn't be surprised if more than 2% of the users donated monthly.
Our server infrastructure costs around $200/month. All of our dedicated servers are sponsored. If we had to replace all of the current sponsored servers then we could scale it back a bit and keep the cost around $2000/month for the bare minimum we need.
We're paying around 10 full time developers along with multiple other people. That includes someone in a CFO/COO role and several people who handle community management. Why do you think we wouldn't be able to afford this? We're paying developers around the world rather than hiring people in Silicon Valley. It doesn't cost $250k/year to pay an experienced developer in Eastern Europe.
100% of the funding for GrapheneOS comes from the donations. The vast majority of the donations come from individuals. Cape sells phones with GrapheneOS and is donating $100k/year without any formal sponsorship or deal with them. Donations from individuals are well over $1m/year and will hopefully reach $2m/year soon. We're spending around half of the funding and need to greatly expand our team.
We have a lot more funding available to significantly expand our team are in the process of doing exactly that. We recently hired 3 full time app developers who are working on overhauling our apps. We plan to hire a couple more along with more OS developers. There's also an open role for an experienced QA engineer.
> Why do you think we wouldn't be able to afford this?
Very few FOSS projects receive seven figures in donations, much less dependably enough to budget for it. Good for you; you guys do great work.
Security depends on trust, as you know: Very few users can audit GrapheneOS's code for themselves, and of those people, very few have time to do it. People must trust you to use GOS and for the world to benefit from your efforts. Everything you post on HN relies on trust - almost nobody is checking on it.
IMHO trust requires naming funders, for any organization; secretly funded organizations bringing in millions raise lots of questions. If you don't want to name exact amounts, you could follow many non-profits' practice and name them in ~ logarithmic tiers: $1-100, $101-1,000, $1,001-10,000, etc.
> Cape
Cape is part of the Thiel family (or maybe extended family) of companies. That doesn't condemn them; I'm not expressing an opinion; but realistically it's not a confidence-builder for many people (which is too bad because Cape seems like the most secure service provider I've seen).
GrapheneOS makes 100% of their money off of donations, and have made quite a lot of it. The bottleneck is not funding, but finding talented developers to pay with that money.
A video would be needed rather than screenshots since those wouldn't show the new animations and UI flow.
GrapheneOS users can update to it via the Alpha channel and try it out rather than looking at screenshots. There's still more to improve before it will go to the Beta and Stable channels.
It's the default SMS/MMS app for GrapheneOS and isn't available for use outside GrapheneOS so we aren't trying to promote it as an option.
It's doubly disappointing because just 4 days ago the project wrote [1], on using AI for the new Messaging app:
Why? Using an LLM as an additional reviewer seems like a good use of LLMs? Personally I have found LLMs very useful for that and they catch issues that other experienced programmers do not always find. It’s not like they are vibecoding a messages app.
Alpha lowers the expected level of polish and stability - it doesn't make every regression equally acceptable. It is a reasonable criticism even when released to the alpha channel.
Further, I believe it's reasonable for users' expectations to be influenced by what the project itself communicates about the development process.
> People sometimes.
I have experienced many (relatively minor but some annoying) bugs in GrapheneOS the past few years, without complaint to the developers. And have submitted bug reports and logs. I'm "in the trenches", not just slinging mud from the outside. If I were in a better financial situation right now, I would be donating too.
I had a scary bug on an older version where for months the contact names didnt match the actual senders/recipients. I have received SMS from my WISP under the same contact as Github MFA codes but also send mssages to relatives that never where received...
Go down to literally any 2nd hand phone store and buy a refurb. None of your money will go to Google and you'll have your phone at a fraction of the new price.
Literally any? Really? Are you sure you're not looking at this through an Americancentric lens? The Google phone was never offered in my market, so second hand options are simply not available.
Other than that -- next year. And this is other companies' choice, not GrapheneOS team, to fix on releasing grossly insecure hardware or NOT releasing patches and fixes.
Everytime I read GrapheneOS news I search for news related to Fairephone. It's such a shame that there's still no official plan for Fairephone to work on requirements for GrapheneOS. The combination of those 2 would be fantastic. It would also open a big new market (I assume) for Fairephone so not sure why there seems no clear sign in that direction at all (to my knowledge).
Everytime I see Fairphone mentioned whenever there's news about GrapheneOS I'm confused as to why people keep on conflating both when they obviously have very different goals.
I wouldn’t say obvious, no. It’s what I observe, yes. But I have some doubt about my observations scaling up to a valid statistics. Lots of folks out there are not techies yet do care about the environment. I can’t see them caring much about grapheneOS, but maybe I’m wrong.
The overwhelming majority of consumers just prefer larger screens (myself included). People seem to forget that Apple releasing the Mini was them listening to the minority and the sales numbers if it were poor versus the rest of the lineup.
I find reading ebooks and long texts like wikipedia a lot more enjoyable on my 6.8" AMOLED panel than on the smaller screens i've had before. You can also doomscroll on smaller screens.
Just today I giggled and reminisced over the old XDA Developers Nexus 7 posts about LTE and wifi calling hacks…the many few of us worked hard to only rely on a tablet! Ironically, there is now not a second of my day in which id find a folding phone useful or logistically feasible. Alas…13 years too late.
> the sales numbers if it were poor versus the rest of the lineup.
For one, the sales were still perfectly respectable. "Versus the rest of the lineup" is doing a ton of work here, because the rest of the iPhone models sell like crazy. For two, it is still bizarre that manufacturers refuse to make small phones even with that in mind. If you wear very small clothes (or very large clothes) that won't sell as many units, your options are limited, you have to pay more, but you aren't forced to go naked. But there's nobody out there doing the equivalent strategy for phones.
Bro the Mini was a flop for Apple, it could barely surpass 5% of all iPhone sales during its run. It would be nonsensical for a publicly traded company to leave money on the table and keep an underperforming product alive when they could put that towards the better performing bigger screen iPhones instead.
For a small company sure it could be considered a success.
I don’t think tech can be compared to the fashion industry. But across the board it makes no sense for any OEM to make small phones when the data all shows that bigger screens sell more. That’s just absorbing an unnecessary opportunity cost.
I think the only real way small phones will reach the market at this point in time is via a private company that’s basically run as a passion project.
A brief search says that iPhone sales in 225 were approximately $200 billion. 5% of that is therefore approximately $10 billion. If you call that a "massive flop", your standards are completely unrealistic. That is a massive success.
And no, the clothes analogy is not flawed. The point is that in other markets, niche tastes and needs get served even if it isn't as cheap or plentiful. It's only the phone manufacturers which refuse to try to get sales from a smaller (but still quite extant) market.
A brief search says that iPhone sales in 225 were approximately $200 billion. 5% of that is therefore approximately $10 billion. If you call that a "massive flop", your standards are completely unrealistic. That is a massive success.
It's all about scale. Yes 10B is a lot for most companies, but for Apple 5% is just a blip on the radar. They probably also did their market research and found that the vast majority of Mini users would buy another iPhone model if they discontinued the Mini. Those facts combined give Apple little incentive to continue the lineup.
Another thing that further clouds the 5% discussion is that some Mini purchasers may have bought it not because of the size, but because it was $100 cheaper while still getting the same SoC. Maybe those buyers were disappointed by the worse battery life, and Apple could choose to axe it or make it the same price as the regular iPhone and it would drop way below 5%.
But you see people talking about the mini almost every time there's a discussion about iPhones (or phones in general). Surely it would have been worth it to Apple to keep the mini alive just to avoid the negative press and pretend they care about their consumers beyond making a profit. But I guess it really isn't possible to do things like that in a publicly traded company.
> Bro the Mini was a flop for Apple, it could barely surpass 5% of all iPhone sales during its run.
They were making the SE at the exact same time as the mini, two years in a row, and the mini still got billions in sales. If they want a bigger percent, then do it less often and don't split the demand. It's been four and a half years since they did either mini or SE. People would buy plenty.
> leave money on the table
> opportunity cost
If it cost them that much to have extra models, they wouldn't have five iphone 16 variants that are all just different enough to need five internal layouts. And four 17 variants plus the air.
That's a weird statement. Do you think knowing the most about something inevitably leads you to a specific decision? It doesn't.
And this isn't something that would affect their revenue particularly much. So while it's possible I've missed an important factor, even if I'm 100% right it could make sense for most people to say "do the option that leads to more happy customers, while still making boatloads of money", while a CEO says "we have enough happy customers, go for the extra sliver of money". Or an extra payment from Meta or whatever, I wasn't really talking about that idea, I was just arguing against their abandonment of small phones. The point is, don't use CEOs to guide your intuition of what decisions are best.
I would argue that it’s weird to expect that Apple should maintain a product that sells less when people have consistently shown that they will buy the better performing product anyway instead of not buying at all.
Like this isn’t a hypothetical, Apple literally released the Mini and it was the worst performing item in their iPhone lineup by far. If it was profitable enough, Cook would’ve kept it.
Like ultimately I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re trying to say, but like this:
> “do the option that leads to more happy customers, while still making boatloads of money", while a CEO says "we have enough happy customers, go for the extra sliver of money".
The consumers do take some blame here cause they did take the Mini away and people just ended up buying the other more expensive iPhones instead of not buying one at all. Why would Apple do anything different in that case?
The obsession with the Mini is something that is only really popular within an online bubble and isn’t reflective of real life trends, people here are being extremely disconnected from the public with this (and this is coming from someone who wants Apple to add a desktop mode to iOS). The only time Apple seems to maintain lagging product lines are with things like the Air which seemed to essentially be an R&D product for the Duo.
Customers shouldn't have to boycott to convince companies to make a good product. Companies should value millions of happier customers over a negligible change in product design cost.
Also do you think people wouldn't buy just about as many iphones if they killed a middle model? That's not by itself a good reason to kill a model or they wouldn't have as many as they do. Like, I'm sure pro and plus each get tons of sales but you could cut one with nobody being upset and redirect that budget to mini.
The follow-up strategy of “smaller width and height didn’t work, let’s try thickness next” reportedly not going any better.
I really think COVID shutdowns did the mini in. People couldn’t go to the store and try holding a phone where they could use it comfortably one-handed again. And then by the time they could, Apple axed it.
I don't believe this at all. If people yearned for smaller phones, they would have gotten it despite COVID. My wife and I both had a Mini and I remember going to the local electronics store (most of the summer there were no closures) and the iPhone islands were well-visited, but simply nobody was looking at the Minis.
I think people get the wrong estimation about the size of the contingent that want small phones. It is a vocal minority, similar to people ranting every time about headphone jacks. Most people do not care about these things. If they want to hook a wired headphone, they'll get a 10 Euro dongle and most people use Bluetooth. My wife uses a wired headphone for listening audio books at night and I never heard her complain about the stereo jack going away.
I bought the mini and I bought the Air so it worked on me. I think it’s crazy that Apple sold millions of devices and that’s not enough of a market. We should make devices few people use, not everything needs to be mass market, to me that’s enshittification and greed.
50% of the population has hands that are too small to operate a typical phone with one hand. It's ridiculous that there is nothing for such a huge number of people.
Most people take what they're given. Whatever is on the shelf or the front page, that's what they buy. Manufacturers make bigger screens because it's impressive and good for delivering content and provides room for cpu & battery, and most people just go along with it. They think about products the same as the weather. Whatever is, is just what is, like it's just part of the world, not something that people made and people can make differently. If there is choice available, they buy what they were told to want.
Sales numbers are not a strong argument in an environment like that. Countless things sell in huge numbers without anyone actually liking the product or service, even when there isn't a hard monopoly like your cable/internet.
Honestly, maybe it's a market specific thing, but from having worked for a carrier, the overwhelming majority of consumers just dont know anything about any phone but the brand. They'll come in store looking for "an iPhone" or "a Galaxy", and the employee will usually push them towards whichever phone has the best deal (and very often, incentives to be sold), which rarely happens to be these alternative models like the Mini. The minority who does buy their phones outright or know what they want does tend to gravitate towards larger phones, but the rest typically just buys the standard, base model.
I believe Fairphone relies on popular off-the-shelf parts. If that stays consistent, the Fairphone will never be small. Save for a change in business model (e.g. pay more for smaller phone)
Smaller phone means smaller battery, which is not what majority consumers wants. However, there is a group of people that dont need power for feeding 147 apps on background.
This is no great conundrum. There is simply a large set overlap. A lot of the people who care about one one, also care about the other.
It's the same as Framework owners and Linux users.
FW is not a linux laptop company. They didn't even barely say the word Linux initially. Their selling point was the repairability and configurability. Only after they had been shipping for a while it became unavoidable that a huge fraction of their users were linux and even freebsd users. Only after some time and only gradually they started providing a little bit of official acknowledgement and support for Linux.
But repair parts and linux os don't have anything to do with each other! zomg why is everyone conflating Framework with a linux laptop company???
I agree they are separate. What annoys me is that every time FairPhone has news, there are obligatory FUD comments about how people should stay away from FairPhone because they don't support Graphene.
To be honest the specs of the Fairphone are middling and the device is rather expensive for what you get. The Pixels are a much better value, especially with a series. If you want something truly high end, wait for the Motorola with official GOS support.
Isn't the whole idea behind Fairphone that they are more expensive because the parts are responsibly sourced? That they pay a fair price for labour and materials? And that the phones are highly repairable?
Why would that mean it could compete with a Pixel which generally has none of those goals?
Graphene has consistently said FairPhone has poor security practices, they had a big thread about it... somewhere, not googling it. There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I wish they prioritised the call app. It is beyond appalling. You can't even determine when a call happened, beyond the generic low fidelity "[time] ago". It also almost feels like tapping anything makes me accidentally call people. Abhorrent UI/UX to be completely honest.
I'm using LineageOS so I have the AOSP Phone app. If Graphene uses the same, then you can actually determine the exact time of call, but you need to jump through a couple of hoops: Go to "Call History" from the three dots then click on the call of interest. You'll see a button called "Call Details". Then you can see the exact time.
This is completely false. Tap the call, tap "call details" and its there. Took be 2 second to disprove. This is lazy to the point of being seemingly malicious commentary.
I'm just reading from the barrier here, and not knowing what it even looks like, but reading your description I can immediately agree that it is a bad design.
There's only a handful of critical details in a call history, and absolutely no reason for any UI to implement them as secondary or tertiary details: Whether it was in- or outbound. To/from what contact. The date and time.
2 taps for some other extra info such as call length, or further contact details, would be OK I guess, but for first-level info as these, it's 100% bad design.
> design-wise this was already a "Done" thing in the golden Nokia days!
I might be mistaken but I seem to recall it being a done thing for android prior to several years ago when it was "improved" with an update. Although it's possible I'm confusing the call apps from AOSP and various vendors. Either way several of my past android devices had a significantly better address book, dialer, and call history.
>There's only a handful of critical details in a call history
And they're all there: profile pic, contact name, indicators that show incoming/outgoing + missed/connected, which SIM, a redial button, how long ago (which after about a week shows the date), Tapping the middle expands the row (no obstructive pop-up) to show Block, Message, & Details buttons.
The reason it has 'human times' is because multiple calls with the same contact are grouped, so a precise time doesn't always make sense. Tapping the Details will show all calls in that group, whether it's one or seven, with their full dates, times, durations, and further options. It's never been a difficult UX.
Thanks. There's no better way to check how it is than having it on hand.
I'd argue against relative dates because that's an opinionated design that requires cognitive overhead on the user. A young person might be able to mentally translate, but older ones tend to have it more difficult. Usually, opting for relative dates tells us about the designer's lack of experience with different groups of users than the normative one.
I agree with parent. When I tap the icon/picture on the history it should pull up the contact not call. I also find the need to click into a submenu for context bad UI.
Seeing "Material 3/Material You" is a negative point for me, not a positive. It's almost comical just how atrocious the UI is. Yes let's make all phones 20% huge-er and all whitespace 40% wider, said no sane person ever.
Where I live, an sms app is not very important. It's almost exclusively used for two factor authentication messages. Everyone uses WhatsApp, signal, telegram etc, even businesses and services.
So having a bare bones aosp messaging app was never an issue for me. Having said that, I find fossify messages pretty good.
The biggest issue I have with the degoogled Androids is no RCS chats out of the box. At least for me, it stinks these days to not have it, and you're forced to do sneaky things to get it.
GrapheneOS wants to eventually support RCS in the default chat app. It may take a lot of time for it to work without google components/google services but it is the eventual plan.
GrapheneOS has official support for using RCS via Google Messages. Providing it via the built-in Messaging app is planned but not straightforward to implement since it's not an open platform.
Right. Installing Google Messages is not "out of the box" just to clear up the sibling comment as they are a stickler for accuracy. It is not installed by default
It's not an article but rather release notes for people who already use it. The app is only available to users on GrapheneOS as the default SMS/MMS app (eventually RCS). Our users try out the new version directly instead of looking at static images of it.
I just wished there was some IM app supporting ordinary SMS, so I can have extra communicator where I could also receive all notifications from courier, 2FA codes, etc. Such a shame Signal removed it, it was one of the reasons why we ditched it completely with family (other would be unreliable delivery, fixing errors when US dev wakes up, half screen nag prompts about PIN, etc.).
So now I must have extra dedicated app just for SMS, which could be replaced easily with another alternative messenger if ANYONE bothered to implement simple SMS support, but seems nobody is interesting in this, so I am not interesting in your messengers if you cant be bothered to support at least SMS and use Whatsapp (and have Telegram as backup if WA would block me again, appeal took ~5 hours to resolve).
148 comments
[ 0.25 ms ] story [ 8.4 ms ] threadOf course it is relevant privacy-wise (Google still gather a lot of metadata about who speaks to who and when), but that's not even the reason I'm mentioning it.
In the RCS specification, there are three lines on a killer-feature: device attestation. A server can whitelist which devices are allowed to connect to it. And of course Google uses this, allowing only Google-certified devices and Apple devices.
And then, there is actually one RCS client for Google's RCS servers. Because Google Messages doesn't use RCS, it uses a custom protocol based on protobuf. My personal guess is that this protobuf is a 1-to-1 matching with actual RCS, and it's both-way compatible. But still, that means that potentially the Google device-attestation won't work with an RCS client.
Sibling comments say that GrapheneOS plan on implementing it. I think it can reasonably work. TBH I'm expecting that giving a LLM the publicly available information about RCS on microG should give a working "send message" within a day (even when using Google apps rather than microG, it's just that the microG work explains the API). And once RCS work in GrapheneOS' message app, it should be pretty straightforward to port to microG, so yay. However I have to admit I'm not optimist about how long it will keep working. I'd say we are two years away from Google enforcing RKP device integrity for RCS, and uh, good luck passing that.
Of course, I'm hoping that, in the EU, the DMA will break this Google/Apple-only device-attestation, but I'm not aware of anyone pushing that ATM.
I can imagine many reasons to devote resources to it:
* A platform is only as good as its apps. If they want to grow GOS in the general public, it requires a good SMS/MMS messaging app.
* LLM tools greatly reduce development costs, especially for well-known functions like text messaging.
* Without secure messaging (as far as SMS/MMS can be secure), the platform security is greatly reduced.
* GOS got a big donation, or has a volunteer that wants to do messaging ...
But idk what I'm talking about. What is their approach?
If they fix(ed) their messaging app and their keyboard, then they've really eliminated a lot of potential complaints if a less tech-savvy crowd ends up buying future Motorolas.
IIRC when they started first announced their replacement for the AOSP camera they said they hired a developer specifically for it.
Modernizing these apps seems very high-impact. These are the very first things a new user sees and after the initial modernization, they should be relatively cheap to maintain.
Messaging can be replaced with one of the hundreds decent messaging apps.
Unlike the backup app which is utterly unusable, untrustworthy and frankly crap. And CANNOT be replaced by anything else.
As it stands it's impossible to have reliable backups in GOS.
If my phone were lost, stolen or destroyed, I would simply revoke its Wireguard key, buy a new Pixel, flash Graphene, and provision a new Wireguard key. Essentially no data of value would be lost, and restoring my apps and settings manually would take an hour tops. Admittedly, I don't use many apps, so YMMV.
And I'm syncing some of the app data already, but that is not a replacement for the OS apps.
Most of the data cannot be synced like this.
Isn't it because of lack of the root access?
The lack of root is only significant because unlike in other vendors the built-in backup doesn't work reliably, and you can't use third party software.
But I'm very hopeful, recently they released this Messages update, they're working on introducing native RCS somehow (no idea how but I wish them well), and they recently made a first-class automated call recording.
I agree that a new backup system is also high impact, but there can be more than one high-impact thing, and the Message app is really low-hanging fruit.
Personally I don't need RCS so I simply use Textra since forever as it's far better than Messages, but lack of backup is impacting everyone much more - no other app can be used to back up the OS.
They also plan to eventually support RCS in the Messaging app.
That's great. How can a FOSS project afford that? Where does GOS money come from? Did Daniel win the lottery?
They have 14 devs 13 are payed in ETH and 1 in CAD.
Iirc they said something like 2 million in donations in 2025. Vitalik Buterin may have donated at least some time ago.
Proton donates double digits.
Cape has donated around 100k https://www.cape.co/blog/cape-supports-grapheneos and plans to donate 100k this year.
There's estimated 500k users so if 25% donated 10 dollars a year that's 1.25 million.
> Iirc they said something like 2 million in donations in 2025.
That's not enough for 14 devs, plus infrastructure, etc.
> There's estimated 500k users so if 25% donated 10 dollars a year that's 1.25 million.
Unfortunately, 25% would be extraordinary for any project.
They should make their financing public (and maybe they do), being a non-profit and also asking people to trust them with their security. Funding provides influence: if 50% came from adtech or public surveillance companies (e.g., Flock, Palantir, etc.), then people would have questions.
>plus infrastructure
A lot must be sponsored. https://xprivate.lol/GrapheneOS/status/2070298479897833725#m
I expect the official account will give you a reply besides my speculation.
They've stated that all money comes from donations.
Most of what they earn is public as a result of the donation method, like crypto. And most donors are completely anonymous.
GrapheneOS does not accept any funding with strings attached.
What role do you have the project? Or where is their public commitment to that statement?
Though they were stating $10 per year. You only need 2.1% of the users to donate $10 monthly to get to the same amount. I think GrapheneOS is one of those projects that is really important to their users, so I wouldn't be surprised if more than 2% of the users donated monthly.
We're paying around 10 full time developers along with multiple other people. That includes someone in a CFO/COO role and several people who handle community management. Why do you think we wouldn't be able to afford this? We're paying developers around the world rather than hiring people in Silicon Valley. It doesn't cost $250k/year to pay an experienced developer in Eastern Europe.
100% of the funding for GrapheneOS comes from the donations. The vast majority of the donations come from individuals. Cape sells phones with GrapheneOS and is donating $100k/year without any formal sponsorship or deal with them. Donations from individuals are well over $1m/year and will hopefully reach $2m/year soon. We're spending around half of the funding and need to greatly expand our team.
We have a lot more funding available to significantly expand our team are in the process of doing exactly that. We recently hired 3 full time app developers who are working on overhauling our apps. We plan to hire a couple more along with more OS developers. There's also an open role for an experienced QA engineer.
https://grapheneos.org/hiring
Very few FOSS projects receive seven figures in donations, much less dependably enough to budget for it. Good for you; you guys do great work.
Security depends on trust, as you know: Very few users can audit GrapheneOS's code for themselves, and of those people, very few have time to do it. People must trust you to use GOS and for the world to benefit from your efforts. Everything you post on HN relies on trust - almost nobody is checking on it.
IMHO trust requires naming funders, for any organization; secretly funded organizations bringing in millions raise lots of questions. If you don't want to name exact amounts, you could follow many non-profits' practice and name them in ~ logarithmic tiers: $1-100, $101-1,000, $1,001-10,000, etc.
> Cape
Cape is part of the Thiel family (or maybe extended family) of companies. That doesn't condemn them; I'm not expressing an opinion; but realistically it's not a confidence-builder for many people (which is too bad because Cape seems like the most secure service provider I've seen).
Good luck!
We've announced our plan to add RCS with Messaging Layer Security (MLS) for E2EE compatible with Google Messages and iOS.
> GOS got a big donation
We receive large donations on an ongoing basis.
> or has a volunteer that wants to do messaging
Everyone doing substantial work on the project is paid to do it full time.
https://imgur.com/a/ZGpbqB7
GrapheneOS users can update to it via the Alpha channel and try it out rather than looking at screenshots. There's still more to improve before it will go to the Beta and Stable channels.
It's the default SMS/MMS app for GrapheneOS and isn't available for use outside GrapheneOS so we aren't trying to promote it as an option.
Why? Using an LLM as an additional reviewer seems like a good use of LLMs? Personally I have found LLMs very useful for that and they catch issues that other experienced programmers do not always find. It’s not like they are vibecoding a messages app.
People sometimes.
Further, I believe it's reasonable for users' expectations to be influenced by what the project itself communicates about the development process.
> People sometimes.
I have experienced many (relatively minor but some annoying) bugs in GrapheneOS the past few years, without complaint to the developers. And have submitted bug reports and logs. I'm "in the trenches", not just slinging mud from the outside. If I were in a better financial situation right now, I would be donating too.
I suspect there are fewer regressions per release on graphenes alpha messenger than there are in googles message's app.
Glad you're not among the gOS haters though!
(sarcasm obvious, but indeed full system backup is sorely missing. Seedvault is crap, not an option)
Other than that -- next year. And this is other companies' choice, not GrapheneOS team, to fix on releasing grossly insecure hardware or NOT releasing patches and fixes.
But I agree with the overlap. I use e/OS partly because I can run it on a Fairphone. I'd love to try Graphene.
And why would Meta even do that?
- remind you that the phone is in your pocket, to initiate the infinite scroll
For one, the sales were still perfectly respectable. "Versus the rest of the lineup" is doing a ton of work here, because the rest of the iPhone models sell like crazy. For two, it is still bizarre that manufacturers refuse to make small phones even with that in mind. If you wear very small clothes (or very large clothes) that won't sell as many units, your options are limited, you have to pay more, but you aren't forced to go naked. But there's nobody out there doing the equivalent strategy for phones.
For a small company sure it could be considered a success.
I don’t think tech can be compared to the fashion industry. But across the board it makes no sense for any OEM to make small phones when the data all shows that bigger screens sell more. That’s just absorbing an unnecessary opportunity cost.
I think the only real way small phones will reach the market at this point in time is via a private company that’s basically run as a passion project.
And no, the clothes analogy is not flawed. The point is that in other markets, niche tastes and needs get served even if it isn't as cheap or plentiful. It's only the phone manufacturers which refuse to try to get sales from a smaller (but still quite extant) market.
It's all about scale. Yes 10B is a lot for most companies, but for Apple 5% is just a blip on the radar. They probably also did their market research and found that the vast majority of Mini users would buy another iPhone model if they discontinued the Mini. Those facts combined give Apple little incentive to continue the lineup.
Another thing that further clouds the 5% discussion is that some Mini purchasers may have bought it not because of the size, but because it was $100 cheaper while still getting the same SoC. Maybe those buyers were disappointed by the worse battery life, and Apple could choose to axe it or make it the same price as the regular iPhone and it would drop way below 5%.
They were making the SE at the exact same time as the mini, two years in a row, and the mini still got billions in sales. If they want a bigger percent, then do it less often and don't split the demand. It's been four and a half years since they did either mini or SE. People would buy plenty.
> leave money on the table
> opportunity cost
If it cost them that much to have extra models, they wouldn't have five iphone 16 variants that are all just different enough to need five internal layouts. And four 17 variants plus the air.
And this isn't something that would affect their revenue particularly much. So while it's possible I've missed an important factor, even if I'm 100% right it could make sense for most people to say "do the option that leads to more happy customers, while still making boatloads of money", while a CEO says "we have enough happy customers, go for the extra sliver of money". Or an extra payment from Meta or whatever, I wasn't really talking about that idea, I was just arguing against their abandonment of small phones. The point is, don't use CEOs to guide your intuition of what decisions are best.
Like this isn’t a hypothetical, Apple literally released the Mini and it was the worst performing item in their iPhone lineup by far. If it was profitable enough, Cook would’ve kept it.
Like ultimately I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re trying to say, but like this:
> “do the option that leads to more happy customers, while still making boatloads of money", while a CEO says "we have enough happy customers, go for the extra sliver of money".
The consumers do take some blame here cause they did take the Mini away and people just ended up buying the other more expensive iPhones instead of not buying one at all. Why would Apple do anything different in that case?
The obsession with the Mini is something that is only really popular within an online bubble and isn’t reflective of real life trends, people here are being extremely disconnected from the public with this (and this is coming from someone who wants Apple to add a desktop mode to iOS). The only time Apple seems to maintain lagging product lines are with things like the Air which seemed to essentially be an R&D product for the Duo.
Also do you think people wouldn't buy just about as many iphones if they killed a middle model? That's not by itself a good reason to kill a model or they wouldn't have as many as they do. Like, I'm sure pro and plus each get tons of sales but you could cut one with nobody being upset and redirect that budget to mini.
I really think COVID shutdowns did the mini in. People couldn’t go to the store and try holding a phone where they could use it comfortably one-handed again. And then by the time they could, Apple axed it.
I think people get the wrong estimation about the size of the contingent that want small phones. It is a vocal minority, similar to people ranting every time about headphone jacks. Most people do not care about these things. If they want to hook a wired headphone, they'll get a 10 Euro dongle and most people use Bluetooth. My wife uses a wired headphone for listening audio books at night and I never heard her complain about the stereo jack going away.
Most people take what they're given. Whatever is on the shelf or the front page, that's what they buy. Manufacturers make bigger screens because it's impressive and good for delivering content and provides room for cpu & battery, and most people just go along with it. They think about products the same as the weather. Whatever is, is just what is, like it's just part of the world, not something that people made and people can make differently. If there is choice available, they buy what they were told to want.
Sales numbers are not a strong argument in an environment like that. Countless things sell in huge numbers without anyone actually liking the product or service, even when there isn't a hard monopoly like your cable/internet.
Lack of jack port and microSD card is next.
This is no great conundrum. There is simply a large set overlap. A lot of the people who care about one one, also care about the other.
It's the same as Framework owners and Linux users.
FW is not a linux laptop company. They didn't even barely say the word Linux initially. Their selling point was the repairability and configurability. Only after they had been shipping for a while it became unavoidable that a huge fraction of their users were linux and even freebsd users. Only after some time and only gradually they started providing a little bit of official acknowledgement and support for Linux.
But repair parts and linux os don't have anything to do with each other! zomg why is everyone conflating Framework with a linux laptop company???
Why would that mean it could compete with a Pixel which generally has none of those goals?
You mean the perfectly functional (if barebones) AOSP call app? :)
There's only a handful of critical details in a call history, and absolutely no reason for any UI to implement them as secondary or tertiary details: Whether it was in- or outbound. To/from what contact. The date and time.
2 taps for some other extra info such as call length, or further contact details, would be OK I guess, but for first-level info as these, it's 100% bad design.
I mean come on, design-wise this was already a "Done" thing in the golden Nokia days! https://the-gadgeteer.com/2009/03/02/a-week-with-the-nokia-n...
[*] Ctrl+F to find the image below "miss a call".
I might be mistaken but I seem to recall it being a done thing for android prior to several years ago when it was "improved" with an update. Although it's possible I'm confusing the call apps from AOSP and various vendors. Either way several of my past android devices had a significantly better address book, dialer, and call history.
Clearly.
>There's only a handful of critical details in a call history
And they're all there: profile pic, contact name, indicators that show incoming/outgoing + missed/connected, which SIM, a redial button, how long ago (which after about a week shows the date), Tapping the middle expands the row (no obstructive pop-up) to show Block, Message, & Details buttons.
The reason it has 'human times' is because multiple calls with the same contact are grouped, so a precise time doesn't always make sense. Tapping the Details will show all calls in that group, whether it's one or seven, with their full dates, times, durations, and further options. It's never been a difficult UX.
I'd argue against relative dates because that's an opinionated design that requires cognitive overhead on the user. A young person might be able to mentally translate, but older ones tend to have it more difficult. Usually, opting for relative dates tells us about the designer's lack of experience with different groups of users than the normative one.
Your comment is unnecessarily inflammatory.
So having a bare bones aosp messaging app was never an issue for me. Having said that, I find fossify messages pretty good.
Will try out the new GOS app too.
I don't know anyone under 70 that even has their voicemail set up.
Right. Installing Google Messages is not "out of the box" just to clear up the sibling comment as they are a stickler for accuracy. It is not installed by default
https://imgur.com/a/C8yV83v
> The more an article would benefit from photos, the less likely it’ll have them.
Unfortunately I think that feature is shutting down.
https://www.verizon.com/support/vtext-vzwpix-shutdown/
I'm still waiting until RCS is supported before I actually use it.
Sick of being the recipient of your mass flagging operation
So now I must have extra dedicated app just for SMS, which could be replaced easily with another alternative messenger if ANYONE bothered to implement simple SMS support, but seems nobody is interesting in this, so I am not interesting in your messengers if you cant be bothered to support at least SMS and use Whatsapp (and have Telegram as backup if WA would block me again, appeal took ~5 hours to resolve).