I'm glad to see more of this approach to modernizing education. I roll my eyes seeing people argue that we should go back to pen + paper or other weird rose-colored regressive approaches to preventing AI usage. It's part of education now, it's part of work now, and learning environments that don't acknowledge that are going to be dragged kicking and screaming into a future with empty classrooms.
Both things can be true at the same time. The article mention switching to shorter reports and oral discussion but other courses may not have the luxury, especially the introductory ones.
> He didn’t try to hide that he had used AI to generate much of his assignment. Instead, he admitted his anxiety. He felt that mastering these tools was essential for his future career, yet he had no idea how—or even whether—he was allowed to use them.
I'm empathetic to the student: I'd bet a large majority of employers/careers he's researching right now are making a lot of press noise about "the importance of AI" and how "it's a necessary part of the workplace now." Can you really expect someone in his shoes to avoid it entirely?
Instruction needs to shift to accommodate AI rather than preventing it from being used to complete assignments and tests.
Assignments and tests were always lossy, and over time more cheating crept in.
Instruction should shift to benchmarking productive output, strategic thinking and group collaboration. Similar to labs where you are tested on completing an experiment or a project with artifacts. Or an MBA program with quarterly group objectives. A major part of the group effort is dealing with collaboration and overcoming obstacles like laggards.
Hopefully people will realize how poor testing is for preparing students for the real world. the ultimate goal is preparing the students for a productive life, most commonly in commercial enterprise, but even academic pursuits require collaboration, productivity and other characteristics that were not well assessed by traditional testing and homework.
I'm not sure it's possible to force someone to learn who doesn't want to. From what I can tell, the article is basically saying that giving the students some form of agency and trust is a better way to motivate them to take it seriously than being a strict top-down disciplinarian. This fits with my experience (both from when I was a student and in my interactions with younger people as an adult), and I would expect that most people who have seriously evaluated this strategy would come to the same conclusion. It's not perfect, as some students may try to take advantage of things or will still phone it in, but the same thing happens with every other way of trying to engage with them.
My experience has been the complete opposite, a bit of pressure goes a long way. There are many people who need to know X or Y and just dont have the maturity or innate motivation to do it properly. This comes from the experience of a Dutch school system so perhaps its different in other countries.
A variety of performance assessments more similar to commercial pursuits.
Group projects with tangible artifacts, including finished prototypes that meet objectives. More emphasis on group projects. If AI accelerates productive development like with software, move the objectives up the ladder in complexity, or expectations.
Peer assessments and performance reviews like employment . This also helps prepare students for adult life.
If the subject matter is merchandisable, have the students operate an enterprise. My local high school has the students operate a food cart for example, and it opens to the public one weekend a month, otherwise open to students. Students are responsible for inventory, marketing, accounting, maintenance , customer service etc.
More verbal challenges . These can be operated by AI with human supervision while being recorded, with spot checks from supervisors.
Every diagnostic has a precision / recall curve and some fall through the cracks. But you have to shift your approach when old testing no longer becomes viable. Better that than to revert to the stone age of informatics.
> If AI accelerates productive development like with software, move the objectives up the ladder in complexity, or expectations.
The problem is that the purpose of group projects is (besides practicing programming) to facilitate learning together, splitting tasks, discussing approaches, presenting the outcome. Doing these requires understanding what's going on, and if you just vibe code everything you don't have enough knowledge to experience the soft-skill parts of the work.
This is nonsensical. Without a corpus of knowledge memorized and at your fingertips it’s next to impossible to build on it. Project work isn’t going to get you there.
This argument has been beaten to death before AI: Ever since calculators were able to do math, students have been wondering why they need to learn how to do all of this math manually when they could get the same answer from a calculator.
The reasons become more obvious only when you get deeper into a field where the math gets too complex to get a simple answer out of a calculator. If you never learned the basic concepts, you can’t progress to the more difficult topics because you don’t have a good understanding of the foundation.
That’s why changing goals to only look at the output doesn’t work for educating kids. Now that they can have ChatGPT answer every question they might see on a middle school or even high school exam, you could conceivably get all the way through high school graduation never having learned a single thing other than how to copy and paste between the assignment and ChatGPT.
Then what happens in the real world when that student needs to learn something new? It’s obvious: They’re going to try to put the problem into ChatGPT and then give you the result back. They don’t have any foundational tools to do anything else. They haven’t even learned how to learn because there was always an easy way out. Why would anyone hire a person who can only act as an interface to ChatGPT? They won’t. They’ll use ChatGPT themselves.
My unpopular opinion is that some times hard work, memorization, doing work manually, and yes, even testing, are necessary to build up an education and thinking foundation. I don’t believe it can all be replaced by ideas about challenging students to get results and then ignoring how they arrive at the result. I’ve worked with kids enough to know that they are more resourceful about finding lazy ways to pass a test than you could ever imagine.
Analogies with calculators have a big problem. The calculator has no intelligence of its own. A model does. (Yes, it does. You have to be either delusional or willfully ignorant to argue otherwise, at this point.)
So there are, or at least there will be, cases where it's actually a good idea to delegate your thinking to a model. Students who aren't taught to acknowledge that possibility and keep it in mind are being done a disservice.
I don’t understand the analogy you’re making, or what’s it’s wrong.
No one thinks you shouldn’t do 8 digit multiplication with a calculator. Calculators _can_ calculate to think otherwise would be delusional or willfully ignorant at the point. But you should understand what it’s doing under thr hood so if you say typo something you can catch when the answer is off by an order of magnitude.
But the same argument applies to AI. If you don’t understand the basics of an argument or the nature of the subject you’re investigating, you can’t tell - not even an if it’s working correctly but if it’s responding to the question you asked. If it applied the right context for your particular situation.
And I think it’s the exact same thing - whether AI is really thinking is irrelevant, students need to understand the nature of how to make arguments and validate information, before they can trust their own usage of AI.
This is the first time ive ever seen someone say you should outsource your thinking to an LLM, rather than say idea generation.
You could think of this story ([1]) as an example. Here, some professional mathematicians successfully delegated part of their thought process to the model in this case. It doesn't mean they shut their brains down, only that they allowed for the possibility that the model might be able to see something they didn't see themselves, or make a connection that no one had considered before.
What is your opinion on using an LLM to provide immediate feedback/grading at scale such that students have to muster their own answers but can check them quickly, compressing the feedback loop and allowing for more iterations?
Students still have to muster their own answers, but the LLM is used to minimize the confusion or uncertainty about the quality of the answer and the time to wait for that clarity.
My understanding is decades of research long before AI has shown the benefit of timely constructive feedback on the learning process. Why aren't all educators tripping over themselves to use LLMs to maximize access to timely constructive feedback?
One interpretation of your comment is "LLM chat bots don't" or more specifically "ChatGPT doesn't", but I feel like this is a straw man and not intellectually honest answer to my question.
The real crux is not grounded in chat bots default behavior but the technology's capability: "Can LLMs provide access to timely constructive feedback in specific educational contexts?". The answer to this question is definitely yes. If you think the answer is no, then my guess is you haven't made an honest effort to try.
>>"Can LLMs provide access to timely constructive feedback in specific educational contexts?"
"Can they" is not the same as "do they" and "specific educational contexts" is not relevant to "all educators"
Is it possible to get constructive feedback? sure, maybe. Is it possible to get a specific teacher's feedback? Not really. Is it possible to guarantee it will be productive feedback? No, especially if the student has to/gets to interact with it.
Is it likely that the reason "all educators" aren't tripping over themselves to have their students submit some number of drafts to an llm is because that's not actually a good idea? sure, probably.
> Is it possible to get constructive feedback? sure, maybe.
Not maybe, definitely.
> it possible to get a specific teacher's feedback? Not really.
Yes actually it definitely is.
> Is it possible to guarantee it will be productive feedback? No, especially if the student has to/gets to interact with it.
Yes it is possible to guarantee it will be productive, and far more consistently productive than what teachers can achieve.
There are going to be educational contexts where LLMs can't provide productive feedback, but very many that they absolutely can. Especially in grade school and qualitative undergrad courses.
I am pretty sure what's happening here is you are conflating LLMs with ChatGPT and other chat interfaces. Indicated by this thing you said: "No, especially if the student has to/gets to interact with it.". It seems like you haven't considered that LLMs can have any kind of guard rails or custom instructions applied to them, can be packaged or constrained in how the user interacts with them.
An interface can allow a student to submit a draft, get static personalized pedagogically-optimized feedback tailored to the teachers criteria, learning objectives and reference material, without any way for the student to get any other output.
I find it both funny and a little irritating how confident you are that this isn't possible, because I've seen it with my own eyes used in both graduate and undergrad contexts to great success.
I suspect it is all futile without resurrecting the old idea of being "learned" as in learn-ed.
"Learned" didn't really mean what we mean today by being well educated or smart. You can't use AI to cheat and become "learned". AI can find the books to read but you still have to read them and understand the ideas.
There was connotation of breadth as opposed to depth with being "learned".
I think we also have to forget about "the real world". Being "learned" automatically is going to inherit dealing with "the real world" because the real world is always changing and that is exactly why breadth should be the focus going forward more than the depth of the research university model.
Of course, in a society so dominated by credentialism, credentialed people are going to hate AI because it will obviously let anyone cheat at the credential they put so much time and effort into. This doesn't need to be dressed up in some "think of the children" argument.
Claude to me is the greatest thing since sliced bread that increases my "learnedness" every single day but I also am a drop out that invested basically nothing in being a credentialed person.
The older I get the more I realize “moderation in everything” is the key to success and happiness. Moderation in the sense of using or consuming something to only a certain degree.
In this case, education, the answer is in the middle. It’s exploring and utilizing new tools while ensuring the base foundation of education. It’s really simple.
Apply “moderation” to nearly any facet of your life and it’s probably the correct choice. Want to consume alcohol? Moderate consumption. Enjoy TikTok or other video entertainment? Moderation. Work? Don’t destroy yourself, moderate extreme effort.
This isn’t to say don’t follow passions or pursue things to a moderate extreme, just don’t ever let it consume you.
Truisms fail when you get to the edge cases. This is well known and you aren't pointing out some massive flaw in their reasoning when it comes comes to classroom AI use.
They weren't responding directly to classroom AI use, they were responding to the parent comment making a general claim about moderation - which included moderation of using Tiktok. My immediate thought was "Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth?
So I agree with the comment. It was appropriately placed and a valid point. Moderation is key for many things, but there are exceptions. Things that are highly addictive and corrosive may be a good category for exceptions. Things that are clearly bad (e.g. murder) are exceptions.
When someone says "life is as simple as x" and the someon else says "hold on its not that simple, what about this exception" that latter rebuttal is valid and constructive.
>"Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth?
This is an absurd statement. If someone is trying to talk about the middle cases, redirecting the conversation to the edge in order to dismiss their general comment is not appropriate.
'Edge cases exist' is not a lesson most people here need to hear.
I'm not even sure it's demonstrable that all things are good in moderation. There is a very large class of things that simply aren't good in moderation.
This leaves it generously a thought teminating cliche devoid of meaning, certainly nothing you should be making decisions off.
This just isn't a good generalization though. It would be easier to enumerate the few things it does apply to than the manifold that it doesn't.
It fails in every direction, not just stepping on legos and murder. It's in no way better to be moderately happy or healthy than extremely happy or healthy.
I'm not who you asked, but here are what good generalizations are to me:
1) days contain more photons than nights
2) water boils at 100 degrees Celsius
3) eating excessive sugar will lead to obesity
They seem like good generalizations because they are true most of the time from the perspective of the speaker and listener, even thought there may be some exceptions, they are materially more rare:
1) except in multi-solar systems, where this can get complicated
2) except when under pressures different than approximately sea level atmosphere
3) except when ___ I'm not sure but I bet there is some medical exception, maybe excessive exercise?
> murder in moderation, meth in moderation, punching grandmas in the face in moderation
I know these are your extreme examples but this is literally how society functions in each one.
Meth in moderation = prescription stimulants for ADHD or narcolepsy.
Murder in moderation = war, capital punishment.
Punching grandmas in the face in moderation = arrests of shoplifters or intoxicated grandmas apparently require physical restraint, lots of possible examples of violence for purported good on youtube.
Each of your hard lines are things that literally happen daily around the world, in moderation.
Okay, I'm coming around to your point that "everything in moderation" is a reasonable generalization.
My gut still says it's easily misinterpreted and can be used as justification to do something that shouldn't be. It has something to do with scope of applicability, but to be fair that's true of my other "good" examples as well (e.g. water boiling at different temperatures / pressures).
My instinctive "hold on a minute" was the assumption "everything in moderation" was not a good generalization when applied to everyone as individuals rather than more broadly/universally.
I feel like I've stumbled into some philosophy tar pit - questioning the meaning of generalization, moderation, scope, good judgement and meaning itself... so I'll just concede for now, despite feeling uneasy about it.
I mean, it worked reasonably well for my father while he was as recovering from his knee replacement. Fentanyl patches that gave a precise time-released dose.
I dunno about everyine else but if someone else wants to then yes. If they can get clean product for proper dosing then it is already safer and better for everyone involved.
From what I understand fentanyl is pretty bad as a recreational drug, which is why it started as a scam for people looking for heroin. It's too strong as an anesthetic and the effect lasts very little.
Sure. Fentanyl should neither be completely banned from the nation nor easily obtained OTC by anyone. We should keep it available for things like epidurals.
I don’t know about moderation but optimization is the mother of all evil. All extremists are actually an optimization agents. Let one run for too long and you greatly loose on everything.
So I don’t think that we should meet a middle ground necessarily but wary of people that are trying to maxxx something.
There’s no middle ground, just that the serial killers and the people who insist that all human life is sacred are both destructive assuming that the sacred lifers take it to the extreme(i.e. try to force all resources and politics into saving all life whatever it takes).
Unless we can devise a method of perfectly determining guilt, there will always be some false convictions. Personally, I’m not comfortable with executing innocent people. If that means keeping irredeemable killers alive in prison, I’m ok with that.
I don't know what that means. Building muscle involves incredibly complicated biological processes, there's nothing "simple" about it. In the parent comment the "simple" advice is also fallacious.
> The older I get the more I realize “moderation in everything” is the key to success and happiness
The older I get, the more I see little besides Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
The key to 'success' as degenerate Western culture defines it is being at the right place at the right time.
The 'key' to 'happiness' as degenerate Western culture defines it is being born to non-cruel, non-idiot parents in a stable country and having average or better health and IQ.
For nepo babies or nerds who happened to be born in a country that needed nerds to make 1984 come about - sure, 'moderation'.
same. the older I get, the more I appreciate the "middle of the world" attitude in classical Chinese teachings. there's no single approach that's always / universally right. so it's wise to avoid going to the extreme in any direction
After some debate, we drew a line separating mechanical churning from actual thinking. Automating repetitive tasks or literature searches was acceptable.
Was there any possibility of this not being the case? Rules which are not enforceable do not exist. If it's any part of the process you can't check, students are going to do it in the easiest way possible.
I feel like that agreement gives the student a "win" in their minds, that they were going to do anyway, but now its approved so they can feel some labor lifted on their end.
> It wasn’t just professional upskilling; it was self-defense.
> Outlawing AI had felt comfortable—a neat wall built to preserve a familiar order.
> At first, they were guarded, but as I shared my own experience with AI, the classroom dynamic shifted. We stopped playing cat and mouse and became partners.
Jesus christ how do people read this shit and upvote it. Using ChatGPT to avoid reading your e-mails is not "professional upskilling" or self-defense.
I found this article frustrating. In my experience, the students who participate in the “co-creation of a contract” would likely also have done their best to comply with Professor induced rules. The challenge is the 10-20% who, stressed and overworked, will be just as likely to ignore this contract as any other. I would have liked to understand how the situation is changed compared to no rules at all…
As an educator, I found that the institution was often powerless to prevent or detect cheating, because many, many applicants are highly motivated by perverse incentives.
Many students attend because it's a "piece of paper" that's mandatory for their career aspirations. They'll never get hired without the college cred, and so they need to grab it by any means necessary. It's often not their own money they're spending: it's a federal grant, a loan, or mommy and daddy pining to give the same or better opportunity to the next generation. So family pressure to achieve is often immense, and overwhelming to a child being shoved through this system.
Other students, they already have a job and/or family, striving to get ahead and be upwardly mobile according to the American Dream, and so they simply don't have time for actual study or homework, but they paid tuition and purchased books, and these consumers need their product that they already invested in.
Perverse incentives abound in higher education, and without removing those or reforming the system, you'll never, ever stop or slow down the cheating, which is pervasive and rampant, believe you me.
I have no problem with AI as-is, but writing should be concise and to the point, and without heavy tweaking current models write pretentious hard-to-read stuff like this article.
A person who has something to say often has trouble stopping writing. Outsourcing writing to AI then feels like the opposite, as if the author doesn't care but wants to just spew some content.
This seems key: "So, I now limit written papers to two pages and base students’ grades more heavily on oral discussions of their work, which allows me to probe their thought process and challenge their decisions."
Oral discussions. That's probably the way education should work, but it requires the professor to spend time talking to each student individually, so it might not scale to large classes with hundreds of students.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 60.4 ms ] threadUh, by also avoiding it entirely?
> He didn’t try to hide that he had used AI to generate much of his assignment. Instead, he admitted his anxiety. He felt that mastering these tools was essential for his future career, yet he had no idea how—or even whether—he was allowed to use them.
I'm empathetic to the student: I'd bet a large majority of employers/careers he's researching right now are making a lot of press noise about "the importance of AI" and how "it's a necessary part of the workplace now." Can you really expect someone in his shoes to avoid it entirely?
...because I'm that I'm writing this article be a AI himself...
Assignments and tests were always lossy, and over time more cheating crept in.
Instruction should shift to benchmarking productive output, strategic thinking and group collaboration. Similar to labs where you are tested on completing an experiment or a project with artifacts. Or an MBA program with quarterly group objectives. A major part of the group effort is dealing with collaboration and overcoming obstacles like laggards.
Hopefully people will realize how poor testing is for preparing students for the real world. the ultimate goal is preparing the students for a productive life, most commonly in commercial enterprise, but even academic pursuits require collaboration, productivity and other characteristics that were not well assessed by traditional testing and homework.
Group projects with tangible artifacts, including finished prototypes that meet objectives. More emphasis on group projects. If AI accelerates productive development like with software, move the objectives up the ladder in complexity, or expectations.
Peer assessments and performance reviews like employment . This also helps prepare students for adult life.
If the subject matter is merchandisable, have the students operate an enterprise. My local high school has the students operate a food cart for example, and it opens to the public one weekend a month, otherwise open to students. Students are responsible for inventory, marketing, accounting, maintenance , customer service etc.
More verbal challenges . These can be operated by AI with human supervision while being recorded, with spot checks from supervisors.
Every diagnostic has a precision / recall curve and some fall through the cracks. But you have to shift your approach when old testing no longer becomes viable. Better that than to revert to the stone age of informatics.
The problem is that the purpose of group projects is (besides practicing programming) to facilitate learning together, splitting tasks, discussing approaches, presenting the outcome. Doing these requires understanding what's going on, and if you just vibe code everything you don't have enough knowledge to experience the soft-skill parts of the work.
The reasons become more obvious only when you get deeper into a field where the math gets too complex to get a simple answer out of a calculator. If you never learned the basic concepts, you can’t progress to the more difficult topics because you don’t have a good understanding of the foundation.
That’s why changing goals to only look at the output doesn’t work for educating kids. Now that they can have ChatGPT answer every question they might see on a middle school or even high school exam, you could conceivably get all the way through high school graduation never having learned a single thing other than how to copy and paste between the assignment and ChatGPT.
Then what happens in the real world when that student needs to learn something new? It’s obvious: They’re going to try to put the problem into ChatGPT and then give you the result back. They don’t have any foundational tools to do anything else. They haven’t even learned how to learn because there was always an easy way out. Why would anyone hire a person who can only act as an interface to ChatGPT? They won’t. They’ll use ChatGPT themselves.
My unpopular opinion is that some times hard work, memorization, doing work manually, and yes, even testing, are necessary to build up an education and thinking foundation. I don’t believe it can all be replaced by ideas about challenging students to get results and then ignoring how they arrive at the result. I’ve worked with kids enough to know that they are more resourceful about finding lazy ways to pass a test than you could ever imagine.
So there are, or at least there will be, cases where it's actually a good idea to delegate your thinking to a model. Students who aren't taught to acknowledge that possibility and keep it in mind are being done a disservice.
No one thinks you shouldn’t do 8 digit multiplication with a calculator. Calculators _can_ calculate to think otherwise would be delusional or willfully ignorant at the point. But you should understand what it’s doing under thr hood so if you say typo something you can catch when the answer is off by an order of magnitude.
But the same argument applies to AI. If you don’t understand the basics of an argument or the nature of the subject you’re investigating, you can’t tell - not even an if it’s working correctly but if it’s responding to the question you asked. If it applied the right context for your particular situation.
And I think it’s the exact same thing - whether AI is really thinking is irrelevant, students need to understand the nature of how to make arguments and validate information, before they can trust their own usage of AI.
You could think of this story ([1]) as an example. Here, some professional mathematicians successfully delegated part of their thought process to the model in this case. It doesn't mean they shut their brains down, only that they allowed for the possibility that the model might be able to see something they didn't see themselves, or make a connection that no one had considered before.
1: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-just-solved-an...
It doesn't not mean that either.
Students still have to muster their own answers, but the LLM is used to minimize the confusion or uncertainty about the quality of the answer and the time to wait for that clarity.
My understanding is decades of research long before AI has shown the benefit of timely constructive feedback on the learning process. Why aren't all educators tripping over themselves to use LLMs to maximize access to timely constructive feedback?
The real crux is not grounded in chat bots default behavior but the technology's capability: "Can LLMs provide access to timely constructive feedback in specific educational contexts?". The answer to this question is definitely yes. If you think the answer is no, then my guess is you haven't made an honest effort to try.
"Can they" is not the same as "do they" and "specific educational contexts" is not relevant to "all educators"
Is it possible to get constructive feedback? sure, maybe. Is it possible to get a specific teacher's feedback? Not really. Is it possible to guarantee it will be productive feedback? No, especially if the student has to/gets to interact with it.
Is it likely that the reason "all educators" aren't tripping over themselves to have their students submit some number of drafts to an llm is because that's not actually a good idea? sure, probably.
Not maybe, definitely.
> it possible to get a specific teacher's feedback? Not really.
Yes actually it definitely is.
> Is it possible to guarantee it will be productive feedback? No, especially if the student has to/gets to interact with it.
Yes it is possible to guarantee it will be productive, and far more consistently productive than what teachers can achieve.
There are going to be educational contexts where LLMs can't provide productive feedback, but very many that they absolutely can. Especially in grade school and qualitative undergrad courses.
I am pretty sure what's happening here is you are conflating LLMs with ChatGPT and other chat interfaces. Indicated by this thing you said: "No, especially if the student has to/gets to interact with it.". It seems like you haven't considered that LLMs can have any kind of guard rails or custom instructions applied to them, can be packaged or constrained in how the user interacts with them.
An interface can allow a student to submit a draft, get static personalized pedagogically-optimized feedback tailored to the teachers criteria, learning objectives and reference material, without any way for the student to get any other output.
I find it both funny and a little irritating how confident you are that this isn't possible, because I've seen it with my own eyes used in both graduate and undergrad contexts to great success.
"Learned" didn't really mean what we mean today by being well educated or smart. You can't use AI to cheat and become "learned". AI can find the books to read but you still have to read them and understand the ideas.
There was connotation of breadth as opposed to depth with being "learned".
I think we also have to forget about "the real world". Being "learned" automatically is going to inherit dealing with "the real world" because the real world is always changing and that is exactly why breadth should be the focus going forward more than the depth of the research university model.
Of course, in a society so dominated by credentialism, credentialed people are going to hate AI because it will obviously let anyone cheat at the credential they put so much time and effort into. This doesn't need to be dressed up in some "think of the children" argument.
Claude to me is the greatest thing since sliced bread that increases my "learnedness" every single day but I also am a drop out that invested basically nothing in being a credentialed person.
In this case, education, the answer is in the middle. It’s exploring and utilizing new tools while ensuring the base foundation of education. It’s really simple.
Apply “moderation” to nearly any facet of your life and it’s probably the correct choice. Want to consume alcohol? Moderate consumption. Enjoy TikTok or other video entertainment? Moderation. Work? Don’t destroy yourself, moderate extreme effort.
This isn’t to say don’t follow passions or pursue things to a moderate extreme, just don’t ever let it consume you.
But yeah, what's moderation and what's excessive is subjective.
So I agree with the comment. It was appropriately placed and a valid point. Moderation is key for many things, but there are exceptions. Things that are highly addictive and corrosive may be a good category for exceptions. Things that are clearly bad (e.g. murder) are exceptions.
When someone says "life is as simple as x" and the someon else says "hold on its not that simple, what about this exception" that latter rebuttal is valid and constructive.
This is an absurd statement. If someone is trying to talk about the middle cases, redirecting the conversation to the edge in order to dismiss their general comment is not appropriate.
'Edge cases exist' is not a lesson most people here need to hear.
This leaves it generously a thought teminating cliche devoid of meaning, certainly nothing you should be making decisions off.
It fails in every direction, not just stepping on legos and murder. It's in no way better to be moderately happy or healthy than extremely happy or healthy.
They seem like good generalizations because they are true most of the time from the perspective of the speaker and listener, even thought there may be some exceptions, they are materially more rare:
1) except in multi-solar systems, where this can get complicated 2) except when under pressures different than approximately sea level atmosphere 3) except when ___ I'm not sure but I bet there is some medical exception, maybe excessive exercise?
I know these are your extreme examples but this is literally how society functions in each one.
Meth in moderation = prescription stimulants for ADHD or narcolepsy.
Murder in moderation = war, capital punishment.
Punching grandmas in the face in moderation = arrests of shoplifters or intoxicated grandmas apparently require physical restraint, lots of possible examples of violence for purported good on youtube.
Each of your hard lines are things that literally happen daily around the world, in moderation.
My gut still says it's easily misinterpreted and can be used as justification to do something that shouldn't be. It has something to do with scope of applicability, but to be fair that's true of my other "good" examples as well (e.g. water boiling at different temperatures / pressures).
My instinctive "hold on a minute" was the assumption "everything in moderation" was not a good generalization when applied to everyone as individuals rather than more broadly/universally.
I feel like I've stumbled into some philosophy tar pit - questioning the meaning of generalization, moderation, scope, good judgement and meaning itself... so I'll just concede for now, despite feeling uneasy about it.
Moderation in fentanyl.
Perhaps try looking up the thing you are talking about before making a moral judgement based on mass media soundbites.
So I don’t think that we should meet a middle ground necessarily but wary of people that are trying to maxxx something.
Some people are not redeemable. Abolishing the death penalty is a mistake.
Another even less controversial example is providing adults and elderly euthanasia under certain circumstances.
I agree entirely.
>Abolishing the death penalty is a mistake.
Unless we can devise a method of perfectly determining guilt, there will always be some false convictions. Personally, I’m not comfortable with executing innocent people. If that means keeping irredeemable killers alive in prison, I’m ok with that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argumen...
Just moderate your moderation! It’s turtles all the way down
The older I get, the more I see little besides Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
The key to 'success' as degenerate Western culture defines it is being at the right place at the right time.
The 'key' to 'happiness' as degenerate Western culture defines it is being born to non-cruel, non-idiot parents in a stable country and having average or better health and IQ.
For nepo babies or nerds who happened to be born in a country that needed nerds to make 1984 come about - sure, 'moderation'.
Was there any possibility of this not being the case? Rules which are not enforceable do not exist. If it's any part of the process you can't check, students are going to do it in the easiest way possible.
> Then generative AI rewrote the playbook.
> It wasn’t just professional upskilling; it was self-defense.
> Outlawing AI had felt comfortable—a neat wall built to preserve a familiar order.
> At first, they were guarded, but as I shared my own experience with AI, the classroom dynamic shifted. We stopped playing cat and mouse and became partners.
Jesus christ how do people read this shit and upvote it. Using ChatGPT to avoid reading your e-mails is not "professional upskilling" or self-defense.
Many students attend because it's a "piece of paper" that's mandatory for their career aspirations. They'll never get hired without the college cred, and so they need to grab it by any means necessary. It's often not their own money they're spending: it's a federal grant, a loan, or mommy and daddy pining to give the same or better opportunity to the next generation. So family pressure to achieve is often immense, and overwhelming to a child being shoved through this system.
Other students, they already have a job and/or family, striving to get ahead and be upwardly mobile according to the American Dream, and so they simply don't have time for actual study or homework, but they paid tuition and purchased books, and these consumers need their product that they already invested in.
Perverse incentives abound in higher education, and without removing those or reforming the system, you'll never, ever stop or slow down the cheating, which is pervasive and rampant, believe you me.
A person who has something to say often has trouble stopping writing. Outsourcing writing to AI then feels like the opposite, as if the author doesn't care but wants to just spew some content.
Unfortunately that’s not how it works…
Long ago, WordPerfect’s grammar checker showed me my writing flaws and helped me improve.
Pasting a poorly written report and getting a dramatically restructured report wouldn’t be as instructive, even if the final result looked “better”.
Oral discussions. That's probably the way education should work, but it requires the professor to spend time talking to each student individually, so it might not scale to large classes with hundreds of students.
It read like an ads.
Why push an ads?