I'm in the U.S. and am getting the Available on Nov 16 button, but worth noting this note at the bottom of the Deck homepage:
> Steam Deck Limited Edition is an experiment for our team, and we were only able to make a small quantity. That said, we hope this is a successful experiment and customers are excited – if we see there is a large demand for this kind of product, we will definitely continue to explore more colorways in the future.
There is of course a lot of US-centrism and exceptionalism out there, but GP could just more benignly be noting that Valve is an American company, so it really would be strange for them to not launch in the US as part of the first cohort.
I'm getting that same message, but am in Australia.
From memory it's actually not available here, due to our government level consumer protection people not putting up with Valve's bullshit a few years ago.
Very excited for future hardware from Valve. Especially excited for the rumored VR headset that'll double as a set-top-box for your TV (at least that's what I've heard).
My understanding of OLED vs LCD displays is that LCDs are more consistent in power draw, but OLEDs draw less power with darker pictures, but more power with brighter images. So it depends on the brightness and the colors in the scene.
Really tempted to replace my current Steam Deck with one. Got one in January and I've put 215 hours on it so far. It's a fantastic piece of kit and the improvements sound like they could be worth the expense.
The one thing that I am wondering though is if the Wi-Fi 6E alone can boost download speeds. Seemed to me like the poor download speeds were also because of the storage bottlenecking. Although the Wi-Fi is definitely the weakest part of the current Steam Deck hardware, being quite unreliable at times, so any improvements on that front are welcome.
I have the 512GB model of the original Steam Deck and have put hundreds of hours in it as well. I'm personally waiting for the true successor to the Steam Deck. This is simply a refresh.
Yeah, I feel like there needs to be language to describe new versions like this:
* If you're going to buy one for the first time, the new one is the one to get.
* It's worth replacing your old one.
This is probably not worth replacing your old Steam Deck (unless you have a lot of money to throw around.) But it's really nice for people who haven't bought one until now.
Well, over half of my storage is on microSD anyways. But even with a wired connection over a USB-C dock, the download speeds were not that stellar. If Wi-Fi is 13 MB/s, then wired was maybe like 40? This is on a 1000 Mb/s connection.
I am mildly tempted to upgrade to this, it seems kinda weird that the OLED is the same resolution? Doesn't it? Maybe I am just out of touch. But I guess at least that means it won't have a performance impact.
As much as I love my steam deck, it kinda sucks to use after using my OLED Switch after a while. That screen is just beautiful (especially for Mario Wonder).
I have been looking for alternatives for a while now, with the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion Go but the lack of the 4 back controls being vertical have made both of those a no go for me.
Kinda wish it was beefed up a little bit (technically it looks like it is, the GPU is no longer listed as a range if you scroll down, but I am not sure why that is).
I just want official word that the drivers and everything still work on Windows. I assume it will
TBH I don't buy that argument, we are talking about PC games that have handled scaling for a very long time. This is standard if you are making PC games.
The Steam Deck really isn't a console in any traditional sense of the word. With there now being multiple devices like this out there, I don't think that argument works.
A single performance target means devs can fairly easily make tweaks and fixes to get "Verified Compatible" with Steam Deck which means more games work on ALL steam decks and its easier for casual consumers to just pick it up, buy some games, and have a good experience without knowing anything about PC gaming.
The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge.
> The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge
IF that is the case, then the argument for why they would not increase the performance is not valid. They could have kept the same resolution but made it more powerful.
You can't say other devices will benefit and still make the argument that the steam deck had to stay at the same performance level. It's one or the other.
It's perfectly fine that Valve didn't want to upgrade it but I just don't buy the argument.
It's not one or the other because the concern isn't for the owners of the new Deck, its for the owners of the old one. Any meaningful increase in power will create a scenario where the new deck can play games that the old one cannot which would be confusing for consumers and would weaken developer incentives to create a good experience on the older deck.
When you factor in that the niche market of slightly more powerful $600+ handhelds is already served by 4+ different players I just don't see why Valve would need to jump into it at this point. The marginal benefit is not worth the risk of fracturing the deck community and burning early adopters.
Also I should have made it more clear, but only some patches targeting the steam deck will trickle up to higher performance devices. Some patches will be things like "low shadows look like crap but medium shadows are just barely too much for the deck, lets lower medium a bit so that it can run well". I only mention that some patches will help other mobile devices because in my view its a win-win for the entire market that Valve is committed to providing a common denominator.
On the contrary, I'd say that the Steam Deck has a lot in common with consoles, especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge with PCs. The Steam Deck comes with a store integrated into the frontend, a verification process, and standardized controls and performance targets. It's basically a "pre-jailbroken" console. At the same time, the XBox Series S is showing a big reason why Valve might want to keep a single performance target for a longer than the normal constantly evolving hardware in PCs, and both it and the PS5 digital have removed any sort of physical distribution aspect to the definition of consoles.
I suppose I should clarify that I don't think they're likely to fully converge, at least not in the next decade (through the PS6 and whatever nonsense Microsoft calls their next iteration).
But it's increasingly similar hardware inside, consoles are increasingly supporting more general purpose computing (media apps, social networking features, web browsing, game/app stores), the experience is more customizable, patching has made it much less "the game is the game", and the stupid simple reliability has gotten much less stupid simple. I'd say that the distance between PCs and consoles has been gradually shrinking since probably the release of the PS3/360, mostly due to consoles moving closer to PCs, but the Steam Deck is a big jump towards a PC being console-y.
They absolutely are in lots of ways. Phones are too small to be convenient PCs, but there's not much left they can't do these days. If you look at the spectrum from phones, to phone-OS tablets (ipads or android tablets), to PC-OS tablets, to laptops, it's really not a solid line you can draw where things are dramatically different. The main difference is that the UX isn't designed to be good at being a PC.
Sure, but changing the resolution and changing the scaling means changing the performance metrics.
If one device is 1080p and one is 2160p, then even if both "render" at 1080 and one scales up to 2160 that is a change in performance. They don't want developers to have to test on multiple devices to see if it gets laggy on the one with the higher-res screen.
It seems to be up to the developer, as many anti-cheat support Linux if the developer wants it to.
Elden Ring uses Easy Anticheat which works fine in Proton, but Black Desert also uses EAC and it doesn't. Phantasy Star Online 2 works with Proton-GE and it used GameGuard and now Uncheater.
Valve tries to make it easy to run a proton-compatible anti-cheat system which I believe is built in to steam libraries, but developers still have to choose to use it notably Microsoft seemed totally uninterested in using a proton compatible EAC for Halo Master Chief Collection last time I checked earlier this year. I read online it should have been easy to switch to the proton compatible EAC but some devs might not want to.
Not by default. But you absolutely can setup dual boot if you care to.
I've used stock steam deck since its release and love it to death; but it's super flexible for those who want to install other stuff or play with it :)
> it seems kinda weird that the OLED is the same resolution?
Given the specifications of the rest of the device, I'm extremely happy the resolution remained the same! A bump to 1080p or similar would make games on the limited CPU/GPU that much harder to run at a reasonable frame rate while keeping a sharp image. This does not strike me as weird in the slightest - it's common sense to do here.
Not to mention how much hotter the device would run - you would be spending much more time at 15w+ in many titles, which is where the Deck starts to get hot/noisy fans spinning, and of course battery life drops.
I don't think it's as big a deal with Steam Deck using gamescope and system-wide FSR to upscale the image. It's already used if you plug a Deck into a 4k TV: the game defaults to running at 720p still.
With newer games having decoupled 3D render resolution and FSR2, a bump in output resolution no longer means an increase in CPU/GPU required. While allowing older games that aren't as resource intensive to run at 1080p.
For me it'd be a big deal as FSR1 looks awful and FSR2 looks bad - the whole "decoupling render resolution from output resolution" is a delusion for trying to push current GPUs to do things they are not really capable of doing. In 10 years we'll be looking back and make fun of how smeary, ghosty and blurry everything was.
> trying to push current GPUs to do things they are not really capable of doing
Sure, but until we get better GPUs, it's still the better solution to not being able to play it at all. Especially with the Steam Deck being battery powered, so you can't just brute force it with higher frequencies or more hardware. Even this new Steam Deck doesn't include a better GPU.
No, the better solution (IMO at least) is to write code that can run on current GPUs without relying on upscaling tech. Upscaling tech should be something to use once your GPU is old so you can run new games, not something that new games should rely on to run on current GPUs.
As for Steam Deck specifically, the current display resolution it has is perfect for its size, a higher resolution is going to have marginal results - and actually worse results if you need to rely on upscaling to reach it (at which point might as well stick with the current resolution and target it natively so you wont even have the upscaler's overhead).
Not just old GPUs, but also low-end GPUs. Which the Deck definitely is, that's why its target performance is 720p. I shouldn't expect to be able to plug it into a 4K screen and get performance without an upscaler. I also disagree with 720p being perfect for the size. I also have an Asus Ally which is 1080p, and it is a noticeable difference.
> actually worse results if you need to rely on upscaling to reach it
Not worse than just outputting the lower resolution. Otherwise there'd be no point of any of these upscaler.
I don't think comparing overhead to current resolution is 1:1 because modern upscalers also double as AA. Some modern games even force TAA, which upscalers replace. Especially at the lower resolutions, too less AA is more noticeable. And TAA kinda sucks.
Alan Wake 2 has FSR2 or DLSS instead of any other AA option even running them at native. Other games like Diablo IV give you the option of either TAA or upscaler.
> I also disagree with 720p being perfect for the size. I also have an Asus Ally which is 1080p, and it is a noticeable difference.
You can notice it but IMO the drabacks are not worth it. 720p will both perform faster and use less battery. The additional fidelity isn't worth the cost.
> Not worse than just outputting the lower resolution. Otherwise there'd be no point of any of these upscaler.
IMO it is actually worse - even on my main PC any game that has the option between "smart" upscaling and plain old bilinear i always choose the latter (assuming i can't run the game at native resolution at 60fps - which sadly seems to be the case with UE5 games and my RX 5700 XT) because the other options are both (slightly) slower and look worse. They look fine on static images or if the camera/objects doesn't move much, but fast changes create noticeable artifacts - especially on third person games where often the character model has a very visible "pixelly" outline. It looks like those 2D pixel art games that arbitrarily mix resolutions and as a result create a garish result. I'd rather have the consistent quality of bilinear upscaling.
Or, to be on topic, i'd rather have no upscaling at all and have the result be at the native resolution of the monitor with the latter being at a proper size so the underlying hardware can actually reach said resolution at playable framerates.
Exactly. Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but I've literally never ever wished for more resolution - and especially not as an immediate and unavoidable tradeoff to power/battery/framerate/weight/heat/noise!
I do not need same resolution on my 7" device as on my 27" monitor :)
Seems like the back buttons are a worthy tradeoff if you're looking for a Windows-based handheld. The Ally is faster and has some nifty tricks but Windows holds it back, compared to the snappy, polished feel of the Deck.
For me it is not, I use my Steam Deck has a way to carry the games that I play with a controller on my PC or Console... mobile. I use an Elite Xbox Controller and rely heavily on the back buttons.
TBH I don't think Windows holds it back when once I am in the game (the part that matters) the experience is the same.
> TBH I don't think Windows holds it back when once I am in the game (the part that matters)
Being able to instantaneously[1] pause and resume games on the Steam deck makes for a pretty great experience. The non-gaming parts also matter a lot in a portable gaming device.
Performance isn't really better but RAM speeds are a bit better which boosts things a little. Digital foundry says it runs cooler and quieter. It does have better battery life but it also has a larger battery and more efficient screen.
As a Ally user, still not enough to get me to switch but I love the competition that Steam ignited with the handheld PC gaming market. Ally, Legion Go, Steamdeck, Ayaneo Kun, etc. A lot of great devices on the market.
I've played more PC games now than I have in the last 10 years.
Windows. They have a sub-par user experience because of that compared to the Steam Deck. Windows just doesn't work that well on small screens like these, and the custom UIs they have are the usual bloatware you find in "gaming" products.
Valve launched a Linux-based gaming platform called Steam OS in the early teens. Other companies made the hardware, and games had to be compiled for Linux - this was before Wine/Proton was good enough for gaming. It was open sourced, but stopped getting updated around 2018. SteamOS 1 and SteamOS 2 have public repos.
The Steam Deck launched with SteamOS 3. Many parts of it are open sourced (including gamescope-session, which lets you skip the window manager and go straight to the Steam UI), but there's no official "SteamOS 3" repo. There's a repo of unknown propriety called "evlaV" that claims to be a mirror of the official SteamOS 3 one. It's unclear where it comes from or how true/complete it is. https://gitlab.com/evlaV
SteamOS is an "immutable" Linux, which is to say that the system files are read-only. This allows ChromeOS-style updates without worrying about how someone has customized their system. It uses an application format called "Flatpaks" which skips the whole deb/rpm packaging debacle by bundling all the dependencies in a distro-agnostic container. It's a bit like how a MacOS .app folder includes everything the app needs to run.
There are also lookalikes that implement the Steam Deck UI with open source projects, like mimicking the SD's PIN unlock.
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Valve's main competitors in the portable PC space are Lenovo, Asus, and a bunch of Chinesium also-rans. They all ship with Windows.
There's also a vibrant community of people who buy them for the hardware, and try to replace them with as-close-as-we-can-get-without-official-repos SteamOS 3. They include:
- Bazzite: an immutable version of Fedora that uses GitHub Actions to "layer" packages on top. Basically, you write some markup that says what packages you want, GitHub mints an image, and that gets installed on your handheld. When a new version of Fedora/Bazzite comes out, your layers get rebased on top of it. (The whole immutable Linux thing is heavily influenced by Git.). Fedora is used for compatibility, but the gaming pieces (copied over from evlaV) run in an Arch container by way of Distrobox.
- Nobara: Fedora, as personally customized by a Red Hat employee to be better for gaming. His handle is GloriousEggroll, and he's also a prolific contributor to the Proton API compat layer that allows DirectX games to run on Linux.
- Jovian-Nix: NixOS, configured to run the SteamOS/evlaV packages on top
- Holo: The SteamOS equivalent of a Hackintosh: some guy in Russia modifying SteamOS to get it to work on a non-Steam-Deck.
- ChimeraOS: a distro designed for set top gaming and handhelds, derived from Arch.
My biggest complaint about my Steam Deck is the contrast ratio on the LCD screen. The backlight bleed bothers me more than it should, but I think I've gotten used to LCDs with very good contrast ratios over the last ten years. I'm considering upgrading, but wondering how much my current 512GB would sell for.
You're trying to muddy the waters by calling it gambling. Gaming and digital loot boxes are different. Even if they share some similarities. Gambling is far, far more destructive than digital loot boxes in games. No need to conflate the two.
How is it not gambling? You put in something you need to buy with money to receive an item you can trade for money. Sounds awfully similar to me like you go to a casino, get some chips to wager and then later trade the remaining chips back for money. Regardless of whether the "official" law states it's gambling or not from a moral perspective they are pretty much identical.
> to receive an item you can later trade for money.
A person could reasonably argue can be exchanged vs primarily intended as a stand in for cash is important. If the items are intended as actual items people value then that's more defensible than say chips that only exist to be cashed out. (And I'm not familiar enough to know whether that's the case here)
I would maybe agree with you if the marketplace were not operated by Valve. But it is. This makes very clear that the one of the intended use cases of the skins is to be sold. Which is understandable, it's very likely Valves makes in the order of a billion dollars just from the marketplace.
Every TRANSACTION involving a CS:GO (CS2 now) skin gives valve a cut. An entire offshore gambling INDUSTRY exists around treating these skins as value bearing tokens you can deposit, gamble away, and cash out. They then take the enormous profit that unregulated gambling always generates, and pushes it towards degenerate gambler streamers who regularly have thousands of literal children watch their stream, where they often gamble with a rigged account made for them by the gambling companies so they can show artificial success to, once again, 12 year olds.
They pay these streamers millions of dollars, up to and including one of the streamers moving to a different country with more lax gambling laws so they could continue to gamble on the companies dime (because they are a degenerate gambler) in order to hook children on gambling.
The skins work exactly like crypto in this case, except the on-ramp is a game that millions of children play (I don't care "it's not aimed at kids", you don't need to be 18 to buy a steam gift card at the store for the skins, and the game itself is free, which is a huge lure for children without an allowance) and it is entirely unregulated.
This entire system is being used to purposely trap gambling addicts at a very young age to milk them for as long as possible in the gambling industry, for every dime they are worth, and until they have used up all possible credit they can find just to keep pressing that addiction button. Twitch is in on it too.
Please, downplay the impact of serious diseases some more. I'm sure your "it's not gambling even though it's basically a rigged lottery" argument will convince everyone here. Even plain old video game addiction is already a recognized medical diagnosis by the WHO, to say nothing of literal gambling.
Increasing profit margins is a reliable way to increase stock prices, which is (at this stage of capitalism) the most powerful force directing the allocation of capital. It's a self-reinforcing feedback loop with far-reaching power throughout the economy.
Allocation of capital matters for startups. Most large companies aren’t issuing new stock, so profit margins only affect secondary markets for their stock.
The do increase shareholder value, just in exactly short-term. The problem with publicly traded companies is not as much wanting to increase the value, but how short is the time horizon, when most owners don't have any understanding of the bussiness other than just handful of numbers every quarter.
Whether or not children play CS:GO/CS:2 is irrelevant. It is a game where 50% of the time you play as terrorists shooting law enforcement, it's very obviously not aimed at kids.
The only way for kids to gamble in CS at all is to either steal a credit card, which is obviously not Valve's fault, or for them to have a Steam gift card. If anything is to be done about the children, I think Valve should just 1) require a users to have a credit card on file in order to buy lootboxes, and 2) require re-entering the full credit card details if the user makes several purchases in a short period of time, in order to stop kids who, for example, memorized the CVV of a card already on file in Steam.
Keep in mind that uploading a government ID would have issues, seeing as in the US a driver's license is not universal, not to mention IDs all across the globe. Maybe there's an alternative form of ID that would work that I just can't think of, but anyways, I'm against needing to upload a government ID to access anything unless it's specifically for governmental purposes.
I was a teenaged boy when I first started playing Counter Strike. Maybe I’m a Luddite but the game is still fun; I feel like you don’t have to gamble or buy 48 cosmetic collectibles to enjoy it.
It's explicitly not aimed at children being rated M / mature and with obvious themes implying as much. Obviously children still play it, but there has to be some level of responsibility on the parents here.
Ok but as a society we’ve settled on letting fully grown adults partake in some forms of gambling. Are we really equating loot boxes in a mature rated game to casinos that will empty your kids college fund in the span of 12 hours?
My point is that the "think of the children" angle is redundant and reductive. We simply don't need to go there to have a discussion on the pros and cons of lootboxes.
Gambling is very different from csgo cases and pokemon cards. One of the insidious aspects of gambling is that people can delude themselves that they can actually get rich from it
I'm aware and I'm not going to deal in absolutes because I'm sure there are a few people out there that do think they can make money from csgo skins but it's absolutely nothing compared to actual gambling.
I'm a former gambling addict, it is very very difficult for me to lose the amount of money I have lost at craps or blackjack playing magic the gathering.
I don't think we can classify all variable reward systems as gambling. Even competitive online chess with elo and matchmaking could be classified as gambling.
For me, if there's some good way to gate kids from participating then gambling with loot boxes should be perfectly accepted. Not that it's good game design, but adults can vote with their attention/money
> if there's some good way to gate kids from participating then gambling with loot boxes should be perfectly accepted
There already is, you gotta have a credit card to buy lootboxes. And while I am not aware of the situation all across the globe, in most places you gotta be 18+ to get a credit card. For a debit one you might qualify a couple years earlier in the US (and probably some other countries), but an easy solution would be for Steam to just ping the bank for info on the age of the customer. However, I am not sure if that would be easily possible, especially if we are talking about API-like approaches.
The only current workaround is using gift cards, but I somehow doubt that kids resort mostly to that instead of using their parents’ credit cards. But at that point, it is on parents, because there are all sorts of ways to solve the problem on an individual level (e.g., get a card with a low limit just for steam, use a paypal account that you have to manually log into for every transaction on steam and don’t give your kid the credentials, etc).
Unfortunately, there is no way one could feasibly stop some parents from just handing their kid a credit card and mentally checking out. And any other solution to the problem that won’t massively inconvenience adult Steam customers seems to be difficult to imagine.
At least here in Australia, Steam vouchers get sold in supermarkets and any one at any age can buy them. I'm not sure if those vouchers work on the Steam market but I'd assume they would (I've never seen anything in the Steam UI to suggest that deposited funds will only work in some places).
Oh same. I think it is far, far worse. Sports betting has a really gross social component where the group applies social pressure to push casual spectators to "put their money where their mouth is", I don't think sports betting at a venue should be illegal, but I also don't think letting anyone place bets with a booky from the drunken comfort of their friend's living room is at all beneficial for society.
I kind of get the argument, even if I'm not fully convinced, that betting is something people are going to do anyway so you might as well codify it and keep it honest, but if nothing else, advertising sports betting should absolutely be illegal, and sports betting should probably still be illegal.
> Gambling (also known as betting or gaming) is the wagering of something of value ("the stakes") on a random event with the intent of winning something else of value, where instances of strategy are discounted. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration (an amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.
CS cases ticks all of the boxes. I'm really curious what your definition of gambling is.
Most children who had pokemon cards bought for them likely don't consider the act of buying and opening pokemon card packs to be life altering or ruining events. I also doubt the average person considers buying packs of pokemon cards gambling. So while it fits the literal definition, it's considered different colloquially.
This is very much unlike slot machines and blackjack which can and do take over people's lives.
People who were raised from childhood with a particular form of gambling as a regular thing seeing it as different than “real gambling” generally isn't surprising, but it doesn't mean that there actually is a real meaningful difference beside personal acclimatization.
Gambling in a casino also doesn't have to be life altering either. In fact there are people who have destroyed their lives opening pokemon card packs. Reddit is literally full of stories. Here is the first random story I clicked on: https://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonTCG/comments/14uucxy/im_in_3...
Gambling is literally anything where you pay money to have a chance to win something. That includes all these loot box things in literally any and all of its forms.
As someone who was once addicted to these games, they should absolutely be illegal. We really should not allow corporations to print money with drug dealer methods.
That definition is very reductive. Any competitive tournament with an entree fee is gambling?
Also, the reason I'm against banning such games is because when you look at all the things we find fun, you will be sad to see that a lot of them just boil down to variable reward. That variable reward aspect is what makes it fun.
You're right. Steam also charges an atrociously high % of revenue, and yet people bitch endlessly when they have to use Epic Games Store or other marketplaces EVEN THOUGH we espouse so much about game developers being constantly fucked by big companies.
Valve already did the evil part, they were just so early to the game (pun intended) no one knew how to react or what it meant. They somehow avoided mass criticism, or I wasn't paying good enough attention.
I question a 30% developer fee for using Steam. Loot boxes in CS and TF2 to get and keep kids gambling. Destroying nearly every mod and skin community. I don't think I'm willing to sweep all that under the rug because they made it easier to open a steam deck.
I like Valve believe it or not, but I question a lot of these decisions.
I am with you on the loot boxes, not sure I agree on the rest. City skylines as an enormous modding community, on steam, for example.
I am OK with the 30%, because it's not a monopoly. You can use any other store, "sideload", whatever, without restrictions. I think, but I am not sure, that you could actually offer your game cheaper on other channels in parallel. But because people like the convenience of steam (which is probably one if not the best implementation of a software store) that many would pay the premium to have the game on steam.
Well, Source was the last Counter Strike game that allowed people to use custom skins. CS2 enforces sv_pure when playing on official servers, so you can't make up your own skin and use it. It sucks.
Using custom skins on official servers by modifying game files has always been forbidden since CS:GO. CS2 doesn't make it worse. Join a community server if you want to use your own skin you made up.
At one time[1] Valve even tried to ban community servers that offer custom models/skins. Though they doesn't seem to enforce it anymore.
While I won't argue loot boxes, and I dont know enough about mod/skin communities...
The 30% developer fee makes a lot more sense if you consider that steam is much more than a game store. They host forums, guides, achievements, cloud saves, multiple versions of the game at once with beta channel access, screenshots, remote play, extras like Proton support, a friends list that will show you when other people are playing a game (advertising). And the store page has all sorts of stuff like ratings, reviews... a shopping cart and ability to purchase more than 1 game at a time (didn't know that was a feature, but apparently it is). And top of all that, it's just frankly where PC gamers are, so theres a ton of built in marketing.
Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's hardly just a storefront. I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut. I would question if EGS wanted the same 30% cut as valve gets. Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing.
Gamestop has a single interaction with the sales process. Once I've bought my game, unless I want to return it, I never have to think about gamestop again. So while the "get the game to the store" costs more, the act of swapping money in exchange for the game is basically 0 work. Gamestop has logistics to deal with as their primary service.
Valve has a perpetual obligation. I might buy the game and then never even download it. Or I might download the game. delete it. download the game again next week. delete it ... etc... And take 1000 screenshots that I want them to host, and upload mods for a game that they have to host and people may download. And this may happen forever (or at least until Valve ceases to be a company).
Fable III isn't even available in the Steam store anymore... but they have a repo hosting the game files. And they still take updates (the package was last updated in july 2023, even though its been off the store for years). According to SteamDB there are 14 people playing it right now. Steam has been supporting a game that they haven't even sold in the past 8 years.
I'm willing to bet that if I ask gamestop for anything regarding support for a game from 8 years ago they'd just laugh at me.
tl;dr - physical distribution has cut and dry limited obligations, but steam has to deal with stuff forever.
That’s not a downside for Steam, and probably totally negates any distribution cost.
Imagine if you had to go to Gamestop every time you launched a game. They would kill for that opportunity. Steam has a captive audience who goes to their store every day.
>the act of swapping money in exchange for the game is basically 0 work.
you're still treating this as a software service. Remember that for a physical store:
1. you need to maintain the store. you can't have dirt bugs and grime everywhere
2. you need insurance to deal with various inevitable factors. theft, crime within store grounds, destruction of property, etc.
3. buildings break down faster than servers. you need to upkeep that.
4. security. Need to monitor the store in and outside of business hours.
5. yes, support. They manage memberships, pre-orders, process returns in or out of warranty/return period, check inventory for if older used games are around, and can route you to other locations for such product.
Its only cut and dry if you never think what is needed to maintain the norm for you.
Some example? I don't use Steam, nor play videogames nowadays but I played a lot the original Baldur's Gate back in the day, so I'm somehow curious about this (even simple pointers are appreciated)
Personally, I insta-bought Baldurs Gate 3 when it launched due to having played Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 + the video's of it showing the graphics looking ok.
I've not looked at them for ages as they were very toxic for a few weeks after launch, and I personally have no real desire to go looking again now. Maybe they've magically improved somehow, but I doubt it.
What do you mean, the game is objectively solid and is very much a continuation of the Boulders Gate series. It has flaws, but personally I think it's the best crpg i've played in years (and without nostalgia filters).
I'm guessing its probably related to the fact that BG1 and BG2 are T-rated, BG3 is both M-rated (in part for sex) and inclusive in a way that, well, more than one review or article suggested it might be something like “the queerest video game of all time”.
To be clear, I'm not criticizing, I just am not surprised that a certain segment of the BG1/BG2 fanbase is unhappy.
I see a thread of people talking about their experience of the game and how aspects of it made them feel. That's exactly what a forum is for, and a very legitimate way to engage with a piece of art.
Particularly for a game with strong sexual representationa and inclusion, it is legitimate to discuss aspects where the inclusion is still lacking. This may be useful for the Devs future plans, or it may change nothing but be useful for other prospective players to understand about the game.
You might not find the thread useful or engaging. I don't find the threads about compatibility with hardware I don't own useful or engaging. Not every thread is for every person.
That's fair. and there are plenty of stories of game devs that do moderate their forums being incredibly toxic themselves.
But point being, Steam is a whole platform. When THPS 1+2's "Upload a custom skate park" broke, I just hit shift+tab and clicked discussions, and bam. theres discussions about it being broken for other people. and I didn't even have to launch the game, I could just go to discussions from the game on steam to see when it was fixed. I didn't have to go googling for everything.
And the beauty of it, is that valve hasn't made all of it a walled garden. It's a nice garden, but they do a pretty good job of not keeping it completely locked down (which is the main reason why proton has been so successful).
So no, Steam won't moderate your forums for you, but they will host the forums and you don't have to have your own/none. But then again, that might be more of a benefit to the customers than to the devs who may not care.
The only thing I get mad at Steam about is that the client updates (baseless accusation incoming) WAY too often and/or desperately needs to have some sort of incremental update system. I am, however, not a game developer. But as a consumer it's been very good.
Feels very apple-esque when people spin up compliance to government regulations as "pioneering". Then Epic has the same spin every other company does and they are ground to dust in the internet discourse.
But yeah, difference is Valve knows to be good to consumers (mostly) but make dev support a nightmare if you're not big enough.
Note that this was after Valve was taken to court and was ordered to pay fines for violating consumer protection laws by not offering refunds.
> Valve must pay a fine of AU$3 million (about £1.6m/US$2.3m/€1.8m) for misleading Steam users in Australia by stating they were not entitled to refunds for faulty games on Steam
Australian laws do not apply to the rest of the world - and a $2.3m fine is pennies anyway. So no, that is not why people in the US can get a refund after playing a game for up to 2 hours...
> That, and Steam hasn't really burned many folks, ever.
I think like many new things it got off to a rocky start in 2003 and 2004 (especially with the launch of Half-Life 2). I only started using Steam on 2007 I think and I've never had an issue.
Other features steam develops for you with that 30% cut: Multiplayer friends list apis, cloud save apis and space, wide open VR apis (that get turned into Unreal Engine apis, game streaming, voice chat (though it's terrible by today's standards), workshop (modding and UGC) apis storage and management, Free keys to give out on other platforms which actually decreases that 30% cut depending on how much you use that functionality, built in "markets" for in game items, steam remote play apis and functionality, remote play together api (streaming gamepad stuff over networks without needing any crazy configuration or special programs), the new input system which is just incredible and can basically eliminate any work an individual game developer has to do to support powerful input tools and accessibility, free selling games on linux with very little dev work needed to support it and way less demanding bugs from linux users, built in customizable (but purposely bad) DRM if you only care for a minimal implementation, etc
"Steam" is not just a game store. It's like if walmart built an entire industry around maintaining, supporting, and extending anything you sold through them. 30% is a lot, but Valve is the only company out of basically the entire retail industry actually providing value to sellers and buyers alike, rather than just a storefront.
The CS:GO child gambling problem is HUGE though, and unconscionable. I don't know how Gabe feels about that, but I don't care. It should be exceptionally illegal to give a child access to a "gambling like" game that ever touches real money.
It can be worth it to them and still be egregious. At 50% it’d likely be worth it (to the extent it’s still a viable business) because that’s where the largest market of PC gamers are. It doesn’t necessarily mean anyone would be happy with the fee.
They also host the game download and all its updates allowing buyers to (re)download whenever they want.
30% is the standard retail cut if I’m right. So if you sell your game at Walmart, they take 30% too.
Edit: There is actually a way to bypass Steam’s cut - provide by Valve strangely enough - if I’m right. As developer you can mint as many API keys for your games as you like and sell those through other means. Your customers will still download and play through Steam but Steam gets nothing - i.e. you use their infrastructure for free; of course they would get their cut from copies sold via their store.
yea, I don't get how people complain about Valve. Google, Apple, Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft all take roughly the same.
The difference is people actually like using Steam. They actually want to be locked in. I'd rather by a game on Steam vs Gog. Consider that. DRM free, but people prefer the lock-in. That's because Valve is nailing it.
Imagine people saying the same about Microsoft, Epic, EA etc.. Nope.
Many games on Steam are DRM free. You have to download the game through Steam... but from Gog you have to download the games from Gog too. One uses their app as a gatekeeper and the other uses a website. KSP is an example just off the top of my head where you can download the game, delete steam and keep playing. Not all games implement Steam DRM.
But also yes. Steam has made the gaming on linux process so much easier. Using steam is the easiest way to game now and I definitely prefer all my games to be there.
They all do. You can argue it's too high but the issue is that they all own those platforms and the hardware you develop on (except Google). Valve, not so much.
>The difference is people actually like using Steam. They actually want to be locked in.
yup, and that's where the danger starts. People like being locked into Apple as well. the consoles all conditioned people to being locked in. I understand it, but don't think it's a good thing.
Microsoft does technically have a lock in with PC, but they have enough historical lawsuits on those issues that they are lax on what is hosted on Windows. The reckoning for Apple/Google is definately coming, though.
> but the issue is that they all own those platforms and the hardware you develop on (except Google). Valve, not so much.
Console manufacturers charge a separate per unit royalty for every game published for their consoles, typical in the range of 10-20%.
That’s how they make most of their money before online stores - the console is sold at near break even typically but they do earn on extra accessories.
On one level, it's evil lock-in. On another, it's all-products compatibility with very tight integration.
I don't like being locked into Apple, but I can't argue with the extraordinary convenience of doing it their way. New iPhone or iPad? Just set it next to your old one and it will pull everything over. New Mac? You can clone from a backup of a different Mac. I started with an iPad, got a Mac a few years later, and finally got an iPhone after Google released the amazing (loved the fingerprint reader on the back for unlocking) but disastrous (the battery would decide to go to hell one day, no warning, and you were losing 30+% of power per hour) Nexus 6P.
No. Valve was never against legit developers using their infrastructure for games sold elsewhere even if Valve dont get any cut. If you have game that sold 1000 copies on Steam you can still generate 10,000 keys for selling elsewhere.
What they clamped down on was developers who built $0.01 game for trading cards farming. Now Valve just have some fair usage rules so developer of game that sold 10 copies on Steam can't request 1,000,000 keys for it.
Disclosure: I am indie game studio co-fouder so Steam keys is something we deal with.
I found it - in February 2023 it looks like added some limits and are enforcing that Steam customers don't get a worse deal than customers who use CD keys.
But yes they have clamped down on the fake games for trading card farming too.
It was a news in February 2023, but Steam had this as part of their ToS for decade or more. Basically Valve want you to run the same discounts on Steam as you run on other stores.
AFAIK it's perfectly fine to temporary run something like lowest-ever price outside of Steam on a condition that within some timeframe (not sure about timing) there will be similar sale on Steam.
One major plus with Steam is buying a single copy of certain games and having a friend join instantly via remote play.
Also nice to be able to buy some new games and run them on an old laptop, can't do that on my xbox 360 anymore. My library all runs on my latest computer too. At least xbox makes a fair amount of the catalog backwards compatible, it's not a thing on Playstation.
edit: plus I can give friends access to my entire library, providing I'm not using it at the time.
Another fun thing about steam: There's no setting for the game developer to enable/disable the networking, so if a steam game uses steamworks and doesn't have multiplayer through steam, it can just be modded in and works great.
This is fair, but it's an oddly mixed bag on Playstation for legacy reasons.
Free-to-play games can be played online without a subscription, but paid games require a subscription - I imagine as a holdover from pre-Fortnite days and cross-platform play.
I'm a subscriber for the game catalogue and only really play online multiplayers that are F2P anyway, but yeah it doesn't seem at all justifiable. It's a strange decision too - I can't imagine the subset of people who are NOT subscribers for the monthly games and/or catalogue AND are playing games online that are NOT f2p is big enough to be a significant impact to their bottom line. If anything it would be a deterrent from choosing the platform.
according to polygon gamestop's margin on new games was around 25%. So that's not massively different and steam absolutely provides more value for the developer than gamestop.
I don't really get the GS comparisons. GS was from a different time where your options for distribution on console was selling in brick and mortar stores or barely selling at all. they 100% can't justify 25% in 2023 as digital purchases supercede physical, but that's not when these rates were negotiated upon.
Here is where I come in and recommend everyone check out Playnite: https://playnite.link/
When I care about supporting a developer or publisher and they offer their product on their own storefront DRM-free, I will often go there to buy. Or I buy from GoG which takes a smaller cut. Playnite lets me launch my Steam and non-Steam games in a seamless fashion. Steam still does a great job as a game installer/patch manager, and helps me discover new games. But I'm not locked into paying them a 30% fee, which is pretty brutal for some smaller publishers.
SD is ultimately a linux computer, so you can still throw on another store if you really care. It's also a relatiely niche device, so not quite prone to monopoly effects anyway.
You can install other game stores on your steam deck. You can directly install apps outside of Steam. You can even install a different operating system if you want. It's not locked to Steam in the slightest.
Literally people will look down on you if you don't buy an iPhone.
They back off when they find out my line of work, but you hear about bullying and peer pressure in school over bubbles. That does not end when you leave high school.
One VC said that people that buy Android don't have taste and wouldn't work with them. Now they say Android is for poor people. Freedom to sideload or install a custom os be damned.
It's not a high school thing, it's just amplified during that point in life; there is always pressure to conform.
I don't care about whether or not some VC thinks I have class either professionally or personally. Avoid people that jump to conclusions and you'll be better off, regardless of how fancy their personal titles are.
I mean, $800 is kinda cheap for self-worth, if we’re honest. Cheaper than a sports car or house with a view or own apartment or even one vacation someplace fancy.
But yeah, ideally one shouldn’t tie self worth to perishables.
What’s your line of work that you need an Android phone?
I find dealing with Android users from iMessage tiring but everyone I know who uses Android also uses WhatsApp and that works just fine cross platform.
Apple knows this and has curated it. Why do people think that they had specific bubble colours for messaging devices inside/outside Apple ecosystem.
They even did deep, dirty tricks like this: https://uxdesign.cc/how-apple-makes-you-think-green-bubbles-.... Not only that but Apple just love to lean heavily on their own custom functionality rather than coming up with open/reusable technologies. Apple are happy to use Wifi & Bluetooth standards to compete in the market, but not so much standards for chats/group chats (where Android users find things don't mesh as well/they don't have the same functionality as iOS users).
I can't for the life of me find it now, but I remember reading an article a while back on how Google found a way to trick iPhones into accepting Android messages as "blue bubble"/iOS messages by dumping some string onto the end or something. I'm sure it was a HN post but I can't find it, which sucks cause it was pretty funny reading.
Technically no-one is being forced but network effects mean that not publishing on steam is essentially suicide for any dev without a huge marketing budget to overcome those network effects. This means that Steam is in a position where they can demand feeds in excess of what they could in a healthy competitive market.
Is there anything preventing a healthy competetive market for game stores on PC? Does Steam/Valve engage in behaviour that limits competition? Alternatives do exist - itch.io, GOG, Epic Game Store, and just putting an .exe file on your website.
If the market is not being artificially suppressed (I don't believe it is), and developer still think it's financially advantageous to pay Steam's fees, doesn't that indicate the fee is "correct"?
Another way to word that, is that the benefit that Steam provides through their distribution/passive marketing service is so large that it justifies the 30% price tag. If it did not, then developers would go find another service. It's basic economics.
>Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's hardly just a storefront.
yeah, that's my issue. but it's all or nothing because the only thing that really matters is presence. So you just suck it up or use another store (or distribute independently).
>Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing.
It's really just network effects at the end of the day. We've seen enough instances in other places in tech where the de facto is shit and even actively ruining its product, but people stay.
Sad thing isn't how big it is, it's how hard it is to fail.
It's worth pointing out that this is for cosmetics. The largescale lootbox outcries have been exclusively about gameplay advantages. Games that only provide cosmetics are usually praised for being fair. For example, Overwatch also has lootboxes - but for cosmetics only - and nobody gives a damn.
And then there's cards, which you earn for free, and can sell for a wallet balance in order to buy games.
> keep kids gambling
I don't believe this is their goal, even though they certainly aren't doing enough to prevent it.
Overwatch *had lootboxes. Now it has a BattlePass you buy, new heros are locked behind buying the BattlePass or grinding the first ~40 levels to get it for free, and also premium cosemtics in a FOMO-style "today's deals" daily rotation store. No lootboxes. I miss OW lootboxes. I'm not a gambler but the surprise/novelty was fun, and once I had most cosemtics I wanted I could also just collect them which was satisfying. I had >500 and double digits of every seasonal loot box at the end of OW1.
Blizzard had the worst luck. Their loot boxes were fair and most reasonable, but because they also looked so visually appealing, they were used in the thumbnail and header of every major article describing the horrors of loot boxes in general.
Las Vegas had the worst luck. Their casinos were fair and most reasonable, but because they also looked so visually appealing, they were used in the thumbnail and header of every major article describing the horrors of gambling in general.
Honestly I found it crazy that out of all the lootbox systems that existed, Overwatch got the brunt of the outrage. CS to this day has a much more predatory and in pretty much every way worse lootbox system than OW ever did. I don't think I spent a single cent on that game (other than the 40EUR or whatever it was to buy it) and I unlocked most of the things for my main champs through the natural lootbox drops.
It was such a neutral system and I literally never felt any type of FOMO or pressure to buy lootboxes, which can't be said for other games with similar systems.
Actually they changed the unlock system, you have to win 10 games as the role the locked hero is in to unlock them now. At least that's what I had to do, might be cause I had OW1 since the early days and played a lot of it.
Not true, the outcries are about the gambling aspect, be it cosmetic or not. When you can buy cosmetics directly (or convert real money to game money) the general consensus is that it’s fine, you know exactly what you get, with loot boxes you don’t (and they are always filled primarily with junk nobody wants to stack the odds against you)
Overwatch was more or less the worst possible implementation of cosmetic loot boxes and it’s great that they’re actually gone.
When they established a 30% fee they were on the cutting edge of digital stores and doing something very risky. So to make what they made work was great for small developers.
I would argue they still aren't evil (and Apple is, though I am a shareholder) because Steam, the Windows store and Epic can all live together on my PC as competing store / DRM. If a developer doesn't want to give up 30%, they have viable alternatives.
Hacker News has dozens if not hundreds of threads about people complaining about bandwidth costs on their static blog going viral and getting inundated with views. Some games taking up 100+ Gb and getting millions of downloads for week’s can’t be cheap.
This is a thread about steam charging a 30% cut and people asking about what costs they could possibly have?
If Steam didn’t take a cut then they would not be able to pay for bandwidth. And even a 100 mb indie game downloaded a million times is still a lot of bandwidth times that by tens of thousands of games and it’s more than just games, screenshots, saves, mods, forum posts, video trailers, patches, etc.
A one time sale of a 4 dollar game that could support 100 gb worth of mods with being able to delete, download, and reinstall dozens of times has ongoing costs.
Selling on your own website, yes, you should be able to cover sending your own exe 100gb or not with each sale.
Oh I was agreeing that Steam provides value, and supporting it with the suggestion that if they didn't people would opt out and just sell games without Steam.
>Selling on your own website, yes, you should be able to cover sending your own exe 100gb or not with each sale.
I think the point was that if you were hosting independently, your video game isn't going to be 100+ GB. You will handle the costs or build it into the price of the game.
Dunno how thin margins Valve operates on, but I think they can survive on less than 30%, especially since they offer lower rates to AAA studios.
Yep. Valve takes that cut and serves up your game (and its patches) on demand FOREVER. No need to fight for shelf space, or bicker with store management on product positioning or any other shit. When a gamer wants your game, they get it, and if they're looking for something that might be like your game, they'll find yours, too.
I also remember reading an article from way back when that said that brick and mortar revenue cuts were at _least_ twice what Steam was taking. Perhaps this memory is totally wrong... with today's Google I'll certainly never be able to find the source of the memory.
most indies don't (and usually shouldn't, unless mobile) target casual gamers, and they can't bet on "stumbling upon a random game" to sell.
That stuff isn't easy but fortunately Valve isn't the only one offering that, and pretty much every other storefront offers lower rates if that's important.
Sure, but when your game is selling in the double digits, that's not something you can bet on. Discoverability is a multiplier and if an indies' is very low, Valve doesn't help there. You gotta pay $100, so I need at least 14 people to "stumble" and buy my game just to pay that back. Then I need 140 people so I can get that $100 back.
If valve wants to earn those 3 dollars, they need to ensure my game can be discovered to begin with. "becsuse there's a lot of people on steam" doesn't cut it these days. That was valuable at one point but I'd say aroind 2014 or so it ceased to be so.
There’s so many options for distributing PC games that the market clearly sees the 30% as fair. This is an ecosystem where you could sell a game on a website with a payment portal and nothing else…
Plenty of publishers do try ditching Steam for their own storefront. They always come back to steam. Ubisoft is currently doing this with the latest Assassin's Creed game, PC sales are Epic and UPlay store only.
30% was more reasonable in 2005-2006 when steam was getting it's first third party games on the platform (and games were cheaper as well, a selling point for digital distribution at the time, which has no longer existed for many years due to greed) and when compute and bandwidth was massively more expensive than it is today. These days the cut should be closer to 5-10% at most.
> Destroying nearly every mod and skin community.
I miss those days so much. When I was a teenager there was always new maps and mods for hl1/hl2 to try out. Now modding in pretty much every game and it's community doesn't compare, most developers won't ever release tooling for their engines and will sue people who reverse engineer their games to make third party tooling. Even 'mod friendly' developers like paradox and bethesda don't like people making changes that affect core gameplay too much and will strip out functionality to prevent people from doing it because they would rather pump out shovelware DLCs to make money.
Valve lucked out by doing all the enshittification in the late 2000s/early 2010s when their reputation was at it's highest. If they had cultivated this same following today and then rug pulled in the way they did in the past they would have killed their business entirely. Imagine if CDPR/A ctiblizzard/EA announced they would never make a game again and would only sell third party games through GOG/Battlenet/Origin, their distribution platform. Their business would be gone in a matter of months.
> These days the cut should be closer to 5-10% at most.
It's interesting to see this randomly thrown out, I'm curious if there's any basis for this? Epic Games currently takes 12% and five years later they're still unable to turn a profit. That's for a store that wrote a brand new launcher that's worse than Steam's and they don't have nearly half the features Steam does.
I believe Humble takes 5% and they're also not doing that well.
5% would hardly even cover the CC fees. Not to mention refunds.
Yeah I think it was publicised a few years ago that Rockstar had a special deal for Grand Theft Auto V at least.
It may have been all developers get reduced fees at certain sales tiers but I don't remember the exact details.
Yeah, facts here. Valve is of course already evil AF. And braindead gamers jump on that Epic hate train and defend the Valve money making machine that steals 30% from devs just because they can. I do not think Epic is great either, owned partially by Tencent ... but at least their competition and lowering devs fees and going to court vs Apple and things like that benefit the actual devs in the end.
What does Valve actually make with all this money? That rake on billions for basically doing nothing and like since HL2 the amount of games they actually developed was very low. Alyx was a niche game for VR only. Maintaining and improving CS and calling it 2.0 is hardly anything considering what they could do. Dota 2 they just bought it. Steam machines failed and it was never that they actually sell hardware with a loss. So seriously where is all this money going?
I can only assume straight into Gabens and other high level execs pockets at Valve.
Don't you see the topic? They developed Steam Deck platform, with paying for FOSS developers and opensourcing/upstreaming. I haven't expected such a great thing done by a private game company.
Well that's all great and all and I like Proton but they only use it for their own game. Its totally tight to Steam and its not recommended to be used with non-Steam games. So this is THE OPPOSITE of doing it the nice way and good open source should be done.
The also did not start from scratch and just used Wine and build upon this and payed the guy who did DXVK ... its hardly eating up billions to come up with something like the Steam Deck and Proton. Steam OS is basically just Arch Linux now so its hardly anything revolutionary from scratch.
Do not get me wrong I like all these things but I stand by what I said. I fail to see where all the money is going. Take a SINGLE AAA game where Valve rakes in 30% of the profits for a few distribution servers and a few forum mods. They have invented a money printing machine and for like 20 years the have been printing money and there is nothing visible for anyone to actually see. They do not even make games. Other game devs do not have billions at their disposal and develop games with high budgets and at a 100x faster pace. I stand by what I said, the money goes straight into Gabens and other exec pockets, the have nothing to show for it. The Index is expensive AF its not that they made a loss with it. They make profits with everything they do, especially the Steam Deck.
Steam controller also failed but its not that they wasted billions on that failed product either. I never tried it, I think the idea was great but the layout was wrong, buttons should not be on the bottom.
You tell me where all the money is going. Like do you really think they spend even more the a tiny tiny fraction of that they made on paying open source devs and deving the Steam Deck? The already had their money printing machine loooooong b4 the Steam Deck was even an idea. WTF did they do with it?
> there is nothing visible for anyone to actually see
> You tell me where all the money is going
> Other game devs ... develop games ... at a 100x faster pace
> Steam controller
> The Index
Steam Controller gave us Steam Input, which works with:
- Steam Controllers
- Xbox 360 controllers
- Xbox One controllers
- Xbox One S controllers
- PS3 Controllers
- PS4 Controllers
- PS5 Controllers
- WiiU Pro Controllers
- Switch Joycons
- Switch Pro controllers
- A bevy of other third party controllers
All with shareable layouts, hosted by Valve.
The Index gave us Steam VR, which supports:
- Valve Index
- Oculus Rift
- Oculus Rift S
- HTC Vive
- HTC Vive Pro
- HTC Vive Cosmos
- Razer OSVR
- Pimax 4K, 5K, 5K Plus, 8K, and 8K Plus
- Dell Visor
- Samsung Odyssey and Odyssey+
- Acer AH101
- HP WMR
- Lenovo Explorer
- HP Reverb
- Varjo VR-1 and VR-2
Along with their support for OpenXR.
Not to mention Remote Play, and the variety of platforms they support with that. Or the hosting for cloud saves.
I'm not saying this costs billions, but I do think you're missing quite a bit of what Valve do when they launch something. There's quite a lot visible for people to actually see and use.
You are deeply ignorant of how much money and effort Valve are pumping into the FOSS Linux ecosystem. The names of their employees as well as their contractors can be found attached to submissions on a wide swath of projects. The project lead behind Proton was an employee of CodeWeavers, essentially the people who made Wine. A partnership! Insinuating that they're all take no give is just ridiculous.
It's not even just loot boxes, but them letting people gamble with the items (which can be worth a lot of money!) on unregulated gambling sites that allow minors. It's insidious stuff.
30% fee is fine? If you don't want to use steam you can put an ad in the back of 2600 Magazine and mail out CD-R or USB sticks like they did in the olden days. That's how Wolfenstein 3D and Duke Nukem were sold for many years.
Valve charges 30% because customers want all the stuff that comes with steam. They work for that 30% unlike smartphone ecosystems that offer a closed ecosystem and can lock competitors out of their platform.
>f you don't want to use steam you can put an ad in the back of 2600 Magazine and mail out CD-R or USB sticks like they did in the olden days.
you're free to. I will offer Itch.io as a modern alternative: https://itch.io/
almost zero restrictions on games you can upload, and they let you set your own share, even down to 0% if you so please. I think the default is 10%, which seems reasonable.
>Valve charges 30% because customers want all the stuff that comes with steam
not really. they charge 30% because they can leverage their 90% market share on small devs. In fact, they already relented and offer a lower share if you sell more than like, 25m copies. That suggests that they do need to work to keep AAA stUDIOS from making their own stores (again).
It's all about market dynamics. And I bet many steam users just use it for network effects.
What on earth is this referring to? Steam doesn't inhibit moding at all. Heck, it has built in mod support that's used by games like Oxygen Not Included and Rimworld and it's huge ( https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/ ).
Steam also doesn't bat an eye at mods from outside of the client and there's no shortage of mod managers that work with steam - Vortex, CKAN, r2modman, etc...
There is a tendency for people not to see evil where they don’t want to. Lego, for example, is responsible for producing a ridiculous amount of plastic every day. I am expecting to get downvoted just for mentioning it.
They do know what they are doing to the environment themselves, though, despite the public’s blind eye they are making at least some effort to research more biodegradable materials.
I remember some pushback when the Steam store was launched, with people pointing out (rightfully) that with this you don't really own the games you buy
I don't think Apple is the pinnacle of repairability by any means, but they have been making slow improvements in this area (like replaceable back glass in the new model phones, the entire mainboard doesn't need to be replaced for common repairs as often now, etc).
I don't know on which planet you live but every new generation is worse than the previous one.
My last macbook needed to have a battery replaced during Apple Care (after only 2 years) and they just gave me a new body (no dents, same specs, same keyboard layout, transplanted the ssd - or transferred the data, not sure) and plugged it to the old screen.
Citing something that's been the same way for all Apple laptops for at least a decade doesn't really support your assertion that it gets worse with every generation.
Your repair was probably done by moving your laptop's motherboard into a new lower case (with a corresponding new battery glued in).
Is there any real justification for glueing batteries in beyond obstructing replacement?
It's not as if there's any space for them to slide around, they're a fairly tight fit in a compact device, and there's got to be plenty of other options to keep them in place if there is a little bit of looseness to deal with.
(I guess they'll use safety as an excuse, to reduce the risk of the damage to cells. But it's not the real reason, is it?)
The case isn't so tight the batteries can't move. LiPoly batteries expand and contract when they heat and cool. The case needs enough space for that to happen without putting pressure on the battery.
When the battery is at its most contracted state it can move if it's not fixed to the case by some means. Movement of the battery puts stress on the connectors and can lead to a short (or worse).
Gluing the battery in the case is a safe way of fixing it in place inside the case. Screw tabs would give the opportunity during assembly of puncturing the battery casing with a tool or screw. They could also work themselves loose with the thermal expansion cycles.
But people like the thought-terminating "Apple bad" narratives.
I think adhesive and screws are the only two practical options for securing a battery well enough to prevent repeated cable flexing, which is probably much more of a concern than screws coming loose.
Those batteries are glued in to their own rigid case, which makes swapping them out of the laptop trivial but also didn't leave much room for expansion inside the battery pack, and the battery pack was pretty thick compared to any recent Apple laptop.
Replacing the cells inside one of those packs would have been similarly difficult to ungluing and replacing the batteries in more recent Apple laptops, but there was a lot less reason to rebuild those battery packs.
Its crazy stuff. You are telling me they cant think of a secure way to use a mechanical, screwed system that is able to cope with the thermal expansion. I find that hard to believe. I believe it is mostly cost and profit incentive, MAYBE safety, but I also doubt that last one.
Apple has a billion dollar PR engine trying to convince you that privacy was Apple's idea or repairability was their idea. It wasn't. Its them trying to get in front of regulation in the EU and outmaneuver their competitors.
Do you think the iphone 15 being USB-C was Apple's idea too?
I think Apple essentially sells disposable, glued shut, one time use electronics while grandstanding like crazy about the environment.
Lisa Jackson has probably the hardest job at the whole company, to drum up the stats and relativism to make it look like they are trying at all in any meaningful way, and not just lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences.
My house is full Apple products, the average device is well over 5 years old. The gaming PC I built after the MBP I use is virtually worthless now, as the motherboard is fried and buying a new socket LGA 1150 motherboard just isn't worth it.
All electronics are the result of dystopian horors, and they generally don't have a very good shelf life. Are you aware of how many SuperFund sites are in Silicon Valley?
Pretty dull newsflash, this is the exact kind of weak, destructive relativism I was talking about in my post.
Apple's the worst, except for all the rest? I should lay off Apple because they're doing better than their competitors?
You're not opening any eyes by saying everyone is doing terribly, you're just responding to dissent with tired whataboutism and false claims of futility.
The market and regulators and device builders and customers could do better and should.
Apple wants to claim be leader in this space, they should do so with substance.
My substance was that my Apple products consistently out live every other electronic manufacturer's. I have an iMac and a MBP that are both over a decade old now and run great. The hardware is excellent after putting a new battery in the MBP and an SSD in the iMac. Especially the 2013 MBP with Retina display, its still an awesome machine even at 10 years old. The biggest problems with old iPhones are banking Apps and cellular connectivity.
Until we find a way of mineral extraction and purification that isn't terrible, electronics are going to be bad. Could Apple work to improve that? Yes, and they should too. My point, which I'd argue is pragmatic, is that Apple makes the longest lived devices you can currently buy, and not by a little but by a lot.
Demonizing the current front runner in a competition you care about? ...well lets just say you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar
> they glue it shut when they don't need to (bad).
Disagree. Glue isn't really that hard to deal with and likely makes the phone substantially more waterproof. It's really not hard, at all, to deal with glue, it's typically dissolves in acetone and only requires mild heat to overcome.
I'm using "glue" as a stand-in for all of the measures they use to lockdown their products when there is no physical need for it.
Nonetheless, you're selling "typically dissolves in acetone" as a user friendly, easy to repair, best in the industry experience? Should we give them a special award with text that is flanked by sprigs of wheat?
You don't realize how low you are setting the bar here.
I have a strong grip on the meaning of these words and the organization I have observed as a customer and user for decades.
How about you get a dictionary and encyclopedia and learn what dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences are?
Then look at Apple's factories, mining operations, glued together, locked down, borderline unrepairable products, and a big old pile of lightning cables and see that is an apt, fair and even charitable description of their activities.
Or you can just take yours and grip them to your chest and cry, whatever works for you.
* always had the longest software support lifecycle in the industry. Only recently has Google tried to match them. My six year old iPhone only just stopped getting support for the current iOS release; it will still get security updates for a few more years.
* can be repaired quickly from parts likely stocked in repair shops almost anywhere in the world thanks to the relatively small number of models, whereas a local repair shop is unlikely to have parts for an Android phone, unless you happen to have a phone that was sold in large numbers in that locale
* can have its battery replaced with legitimate OEM parts, retaining waterproofing and whatnot, by Apple or third party shops who have been certified to do the repair correctly. No Android manufacturer does anything close to any of this.
* was one of the first phones to throttle CPU speed when it detects rising internal resistance from battery aging, thus prolonging the device's lifespan (which everyone shit on them for, claiming it was designed to 'force' people to upgrade, when it was exactly the opposite - it kept people's phones working longer than they otherwise would)
* has a charge/data connector much more durable than standard USB connectors, and it's still not placed on the motherboard like nearly every Android phone does; it's on an easily replaced board. The whole EU USB-C debacle about consumer rights. It was about other companies eliminating Apple's competitive advantage with the Lightning port, denying consumers the right to choose a different connector other than the planned obsolescence USB connectors. And you know what else? Nobody's iPhone has ever been fried by a Lightning cable, but there was a huge debacle over USB-C cables that would fry anything they were plugged into.
There's a reason iPhones retaining their value in the used market for years - and Android phones depreciate like a lead balloon.
> lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences.
I understand that you want to feel good about your purchasing decisions, but you just are not seeing how low you are setting the bar.
I use these products and am deeply invested in them. They are good, but much farther from perfect than you think. All of these stats are hollow relativism.
If two companies were detonating atom bombs in your neighborhood, but one provided you and your family with super solid umbrellas to catch the ash, you'd probably be swollen with praise for them as well.
There I go demonizing again... I really shouldn't be comparing a corporation with greater market value than the GDP of some countries to a nation state with the power to instigate generational environmental disasters. Totally different, not worthy of comparison at all.
What does one time use mean for a phone? You make one call and dispose of it? I used my last iPhone for 6 years, including a 3rd party screen replacement and battery replacement.
One person uses it, for a pre-determined amount of time dictated by security updates and software based gatekeeping, and then its time of usefulness has passed, and it can't be meaningfully put to any other use. In parallel, parts and service become scarce.
If you're advocating that the average user, or differently abled users get comfortable with the tweezers and pentalobe screws in order to extend the lives of their devices, I'm afraid you've lost the plot.
Woz himself has spoken out against Apple's anti-repair stance.
For a few gens now "simple" to swap out iPhone parts like screens need to be purchased directly from Apple and authorized to go into the device that's being repaired via IMEI. This kills off tons of third party market options. Imagine if vehicle manufacturers required that you buy all replacement parts from them. In the case of vehicles, there are tons of used, reconditioned, and third party parts available that work just fine as replacements.
This kind of behavior is why I'll never "buy" an Apple device; you never truly own it and can do what you want to do with it, from both hardware and software perspectives.
I'd rather have companies putting out emulator-friendly devices than re-charging for the same game every time a new hardware generation rolls around. The steam deck is just a computer at the end of the day, people are going to run emulators on it.
sure, but most other console makers actually sell at a loss and rely on selling and re-selling software to make profit. And users who buy consoles don't want to mess around with emulators anyway.
Valve didn't sell hardware for half its lifetime, and the hardware it sold were on small margins. Steam Deck is a success selling a few million, the vita was a bomb selling 10m (very conservative estimate. you'll see 15m when googling). Economies of scale
I don't believe so. I was just explaining that a console needs to justify every generational bump. And if remasters are valuable enough, they'll do it.
I think that's pretty reductive. They have a whole category of games that are great on Deck. I love playing Streets of Rage 4 and Katamari reroll on it.
Emulators are not illegal, nor are compatible clones of consoles. It's actually weird that there aren't many alternative implementations of consoles in current times. There were plenty in the NES days.
They are legally dubious enough that Steam had to take down Dolphin. I think that's the real kicker.
>It's actually weird that there aren't many alternative implementations of consoles in current times
where's the allure anymore? the PC and mobile hardware can do that just fine. those alt knockoff consoles came at a time where owning a PC was a huge premium.
That said, there are a few modern alt consoles to consider as a hobbyist:
I think "had" is too strong a word. I don't think a US court ever forced them to do it. As far as I know, they asked Nintendo what they thought about it, got the standard Nintendo "it's illegal" spiel and took it down of their own accord to play nice.
These things are "illegal" because these corporations can afford to turn the justice system into a legal bullying mechanism. They don't like what you do? They threaten to set your money on fire if you don't stop. Most people just obey because they don't really want to impoverish themselves fighting them.
There's no telling what would actually happen if it actually went to court though. I've read too many court cases where these game companies lost to just believe them when they say it's "illegal". The problem is always the fact they win in the end simply by having deeper pockets: the other party often gets bankrupted despite the victory. Bleem and Virtual Game Station come to mind. True justice would have been these alternative implementations of the consoles competing with the real thing on equal footing on day one.
> where's the allure anymore?
There weren't clones of any of the consoles of the previous generations though. Modern consoles are basically glorified PCs but a PS2 and NDS weren't.
Are there stats on what proportion of Deck use is piracy? I have a Deck, half my friends have Decks, none of them have mentioned piracy as a use case that I can recall.
A 40 year old with a twenty year back catalog of Steam titles gives me plenty of things to play.
You are aware that the vast majority of Steam games work on the Steam Deck? There are literally more games available on Steam that you can play on it then probably every console in existence.
By "real" console you mean a locked-down device that can only run software approved by the manufacturer and restricts running arbitrary user code?
Why would anyone ever want that? If you buy a device, you are supposed to be able to do anything you want with it, including running emulators or whatever.
Thankfully, even when vendors want to prevent people from doing that, they often screw it up and leave exploits that allow people to regain control. Even funnier when they then try suing random people for that to compensate for their engineering skill issue/make an example etc.
Nintendo make great games that I pay for. But the way they drip feed their back catalog and price gouge on N64 is a red line for me. The entire NES to N64 catalog (licensing permitting) should be a part of the base Nintendo Online subscription.
I'll give them a pass on Gamecube and later as that generation can still look pretty good.
I would probably subscribe if they got the back catalog right. But it's no bother to me really, it's trivial to emulate their games right up to the Wii U.
I don't have an Xbox or PS so not really bothered about what their services are. I guess a trickle rather than a drip feed is OK, it should be a lot faster than it is now though.
Knowing the majority of the NES > N64 Nintendo back catalog is coming at a reasonable pace would be a reason to subscribe to their online service, assuming it is all available at the base sub price.
strictly speaking, yes. But I hope we can both agree that a large share of emulator users aren't taking their legally bought copy of a game and creating a backup rom out of it. Nor manually dumping the bios from their legally obtained piece of hardware.
Valve's a software distribution company, not a hardware company.
The steam deck exists primarily to expand their targetable market.
It's of no benefit to them if people's devices fail - they just stop buying games (unlike Apple, where the devices are intended to slow down or stop working altogether).
I liked the direction you were going, but I don’t think you made the right comparison. iPhones, for example, are used 30-60% longer (4-10 years) than a Samsung phone (3-6 years). Apple provides software updates for all of their devices for 6+ years.
I’ve had very few devices containing lithium ion batteries that didn’t require a new battery. I have devices from the early 2000s from Sony, HP, Dell, Nikon, and countless others whose batteries have failed.
Valve may not be a hardware company on the scale of Apple, but they do design/prototype/create/repair hardware products. Also, they do a lot more than just distribute software [0].
Apple is going back to how home computers used to be, before Compaq got lucky with the IBM PC cloning.
They were consumer electronics devices, most of the expansion possibilities were via external devices connected on an expansion port of some sort, and that was about it.
Naturally this model offers better margins than selling PC components on thin razor margins, which is why even the PC world is going into that direction, leaving custom PCs for hardcore gammers and servers, where OEMs can also enjoy higher margins.
Hmm, given the chassis changes, what are the odds the OLED screen can be dropped into existing Decks? It would probably hold back adoption but I'm unlikely to upgrade so soon anyway.
There's already "DeckHD" after-market upgrade kits, a 1920x1200 OLED screen for $100.
Looks like a pain to install, though. Saw a time-lapse of the process on LTT and it looked like it involved removing just about every single screw and fastener in the entire device.
Are they still covered by the patents that made them unattractive initially? Patent expiry could very well be the reason for their increased popularity.
Torx patent expired in 2011, so that's increasingly likely why it's taken off.
Edited to add: the "Torx Plus" design's patent expired in 2011, which was put in place in 1990 as the original Torx patent was expiring then. Some more nuance, but there ya go.
Wikipedia tells me the original Torx patent[1] was filed in the 1960s, so anything related should have long since expired. (There’s apparently also a “Torx Plus” patented[2] in the early 1990s around the time the original patent was expiring, but I don’t believe anybody deliberately chooses that one. Expired in 2011.)
My understanding is that the patents for Torx (and Torx Plus) have expired. They're an ISO standard, "hexalobular internal" (which is much more fun to say).
Also, Torx takes the guesswork out of determining which bit to use. If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Phillips can be a pain in the ass to figure out which bit to use.
I think it may seem like Torx has more sizes than say Phillips or flat-headed screws due to the fact that with those you can generally get away with a screw driver that is "close enough" in size, whereas with Torx you really need the exact size the screw is using.
If you want to strip your screws, you can do that. And then there's the Pozi vs Philips thing that people tend to get wrong. Torx is kind of a pain in the ass because you always try the wrong screwdriver first, but it's still way better than philips/pozidriv
It's because philips drivers are wedge-shaped. They properly fit a range of screw heads. This means that there's only two or three commonly used driver sizes. With torx the sides are parallel so the driver size is directly related to the screw head size.
Philips used to be the "good" one because although it's a pretty bad design, everyone had it. Now that lots of people have torx drivers, they're better in pretty much every way. They're a lot harder to strip, they don't cam out as much etc.
Engineering wise, Torx was always superior, particularly small screws that would strip easily. People hated it because of the patents, and getting good tools were extremely expensive because of the licensing.
I'm confused by the idea that torx could be superior. I don't think I've ever touched a device or car with torx heads that didn't end up with half of them being stripped.
I have tinkered on cars both with and without torx.
Torx sucks, its also not uncommon for dimensions to differ on included torx tools so when you use a size 3 on another products "torx 3" it will strip away.
"Included" tools are expected to invariably be of shit quality. Blaming a fastener standard because of whatever some random Aliexpress vendor is doing is rather stupid.
Also a T3 would be 1mm, this is like mobile phone fastener size, nothing on a car is a "size 3", so QYBS, you do not have any depth on the subject matter to have a useful opinion.
Use quality tools, there is absolutely no problem, there's even an ISO standard (10664), there is absolutely no reason for ambiguity. Just stop buying shit.
Torx has tremendous benefits which is why it is a fastener of choice for high value items on cars. They're also used in high volume construction, they wouldn't be if they "sucked".
if your hands cramp when using a switch, the deck might be good for your hands. I've had the same issue with the low stick placement on it and the deck has been an ergonomic joy.
I've found the Deck quite uncomfortable to hold, with the rear buttons being the lowest point. Lots of pain in the curve of the palm, plus the stock plastic is slippery which makes you try to squeeze harder. Propped up on a stand with an external controller is my preferred way personally.
I prefer steam’s openess as an incentive to sell games versus companies that manipulate you, spy on you, prevent repairs, steal your data or use all sorts of dark patterns. Steam is simply a company that builds products the right way. They deserve my £.
Oh and that sexy support of Linux. It won a loyal customer for life (or until they get acquired and get enshitified to death).
I'd argue that putting the USB-C charge port directly on the motherboard instead of a replaceable carrier was an equally poor choice. One booboo or too many accessory plug-unplug cycles requires a motherboard replacement, RMA, or a hotplate and hot air at a minimum. There are contacts that are under the USB-C port module, so it's not even possible to change it with an iron. Better a separate daughterboard connected by FPC. Mine has a magnetic wearout extender on it now.
Yeah my old intel macbook (touchbar) is pretty much unusable because the usb-c ports no longer 'click' so keeping a power cord plugged in is incredibly frustrating. I asked a guy at the local non-apple mac store and he said in my model they are soldered directly onto the motherboard and are a bitch to replace. Apple just wants to replace the whole motherboard. I think now they put them on daughterboards but i'm not sure. Thankfully the m2 I replaced it with has magsafe (or you can use usb-c to charge if you find yourself without a magsafe cord) so far less cycles on the usb ports.
Well not sure about the Steam Deck, its all nice and fine but if the original device is not very durable its still sucks of you need to repair it often.
I do not know if they are going this route with the Index, that thing is notoriously bad build, and it breaks for people after a very short lifespan all the time. Basically almost every serious reviewer complained how their Index broke after X months. I do not think its easy to repair at all and does Valve sell spare parts? It should life longer in the first place.
I have owned an index for 4 years with heavy daily use during the pandemic, and the only issue I've had is when I smashed a controller in a wall playing beat saber (and even so only the thing that retains the elastic strap broke).
I've also spent a while in VRChat where these issues would be discussed and I've never seen anyone mention that the index in not durable.
Small observation, I think they got the idea for a limited edition see transparent case after seeing how many people were interesting in modding theirs with an aftermarket one, and also probably a reason they made it even easier to take apart. The steam deck has seen more hardware mods than any other consumer hardware device I can think of in the past decade.
Do you know if the plastic casing is any easier to open? I damaged the edges of mine with the spludger when prying it open to install an SSD, the plastic is quite soft.
at what voltage do devices like this tend to operate? I was trying to estimate the ah of the batteries so I could then be frustrated at how they pack the cells in there.
well you can just look at the specs from an official supplier of replacement batteries like ifixit https://www.ifixit.com/products/steam-deck-battery this will give you specs for the old old battery, I'm sure valve would've gone with a bigger battery that runs at the sameish voltage for simplicity
Judging from the Digital Foundry video[0], it appears to have a limited form of VRR that will sample the refresh rate closest to whatever you're limiting for (eg. 40fps -> 80hz). It's not a complete solution, but it should effectively "solve" frame timing issues if your framerate is high enough.
For what it's worth too, my experience gaming on Wayland has been great from a consistency perspective. Once you dial in settings that work, the only performance blips you can notice are related to shader compilation. 144hz feels like 144hz, which has not always been the case on Linux.
What are you running exactly? I haven't been able to get a 144hz + 60hz setup working with KDE on X. The main monitor just doesn't want to do 144hz, even if I disable the other one via xrandr. My 1070 Ti has me afraid of wayland because the nvidia driver already breaks something once a month.
I tried to get my 3090 working in Wayland/KDE/Arch for about a month (after repeatedly running into the same issues on my 2060 laptop) and gave up.
AMD IGP output it is... and I just game on Windows instead. But even then, neutering the leftover bits of the Nvidia driver (which I need for CUDA) that keep breaking electron/chromium is making me pull my hair out. I still hold my breath opening VSCode, wondering if its going to freeze or not.
That doesn't sound normal, even for Linux. It almost sounds like the issue is somewhere else. My first guess would be a PSU that's unable to source the 3090's current draw under load, given everything else running on your system.
Try using a dedicated rail or another PSU if you have one.
Its definitely not. I have a V850 SFX Gold, a single 3090 FTW3 and a 7800X3D, and its rock solid in OCCT's variable load test, even when overclocked (and its not overclocked on linux).
I have literally all the exact same issues on my RTX 2060 Asus G14 laptop, like:
- GPU rendering broken in Wayland Chromium/Electron, and sometimes Firefox
- Occasional black screen on boot, from some kind of race condition.
- Unpredictable artifacting on the KDE desktop and some apps.
And I still get some of that when Nvidia DRM is disabled and I'm just using the 4900HS/7800X3D for display out. Completely disabling the Nvidia GPU fixes all of it, every single thing, but then I can't use CUDA.
I'd like to do that too, but currently you have to pick between games and AI stuff, at least on Linux. I'd love to support AMD on this, but their CUDA story isn't great.
True, but I considered a bit my needs and concluded that smooth Linux support is much more important for me than AI. My work doesn't directly touch AI, so for my modest AI needs I can just use online services that probably do it better anyway.
I just bit the bullet and moved to Wayland. I've heard mixed things about people on 10-series hardware, but things work pretty well on my 3070Ti. My guess is that the drivers are slightly different across generations, and parity still hasn't been a priority. I decommissioned my 1050 back in my x11 days, I wish I could tell you how well it worked with my current setup.
I'm also running everything on NixOS, so assume there's a fair bit of fairy dust blessing the config. Besides enabling modeset and cudatoolkit manually though, I don't think there's much special about my software setup.
I definitely noticed the driver issues increasing as my GPU got older. On windows I spent hours looking for driver versions that work with all my games and then didn't update for months.
If it wasn't for AI, I'd upgrade to AMD right now. But ROCm and the CUDA translation layer don't quite seem to be there yet.
> And... Is the OLED not VRR? That was my #1 wish for the original Deck (with #2 being an OLED)
According to LTT it is due to the physical connection. Basically the panel is the same as Switch OLED and thus uses whatever it uses which is MIPI and thus no VRR (need eDP for that). The hardware clearly supports it (just plug an external display with VRR support into the deck and it works)
Makes sense. The highest volume OLED with the right size is... the Switch's!
>Basically Valve doesn't do large enough volume to make proper custom display economical so they have to take whatever they can get.
Yeah exactly. I see a lot of online complaints (mostly outside HN) about no new APU or no custom display, but the capital costs of doing either from scratch are just hilariously high.
As they have identical sub pixel layout they very likely come from the same factory.
I think one side of the mother glass has a few extra pixels that you can just not cut off and end up with the 80 pixels more on one direction?
If you start from a panel that cuts perfectly to 8K or 4K TV panels and you keep halving it won't go down evenly to 720p as it is not half of 1080p (1440p is half of 4K and 1080p is half of 1440p so they come out nicely without any wasted panel/pixels by cutting in half)
The 7->6 move is also behind the modest shrinkage of the PS5 that preceded its new "somewhat slim" variant. (They did the shrink first with an unchanged case a little while ago).
I want a small, inexpensive gaming computer to connect to my TV and have been thinking about the Steam Deck or a mini pc like the Minisforum HX99G (Ryzen 9 6900HX). Would the two computers be roughly comparable?
I'm looking for something small because I don't have room for anything bigger. The Steam Deck is appealing because it doesn't seem very computer-y. What I want is a console that plays PC games. I've tried SteamLink between my desktop computer and AppleTV but it was a terrible experience.
Is there something better than the Steam Deck that isn't expensive (ie not more than $2000).
There are a very wide variety of Windows based handhelds more powerful than the Steam Deck. AyaNeo seems to crank a new one out every 4 months!
I came across a google doc a while back where people were obsessively cataloging them. There are many which have come out in the last 2 years. You have your pick of options. They usually run from 400 - 1200.
lol. I don't think anyone has tested all of these to be able to make such a recommendation.
If you want one which also docks and is a serviceable PC, filter that list for stuff which can run Windows/Linux and also comes with a Ryzen 5/7. Bigger number is better CPU (you'll notice above the 7k Ryzen series, it gets an A on Switch emulation).
Take a look at the spread of prices and battery capacity and decide what candidates are important for you, and lastly check the reviews to see if any of them have quality/usability issues.
I have been really happy with my steam deck - I would strongly consider it if you don't mind that the hardware isn't cutting-edge. I rarely use it connected to a TV, so the relatively weak GPU might look worse than it does on the small screen, but otherwise it has been fantastic.
It "just works," like a console. Which would be another good option.
Kind of, they did the Steam Link which was local streaming only. They also had the Steam Machines which were made by third parties. From what I recall the Steam Machines were overpriced for what they were and SteamOS + proton weren't nearly as good as they are now.
I think that rumor was mostly based on an old screenshot from a documentary and the korean filings for a new WiFi6e device, which turned out to be this deck revision, so I'd put less weight on those now.
Are there any other clues about them working on the console?
Have you tried either Nvidia's or AMD's? I used moonlight on my phone for Nvidia it's free. You need fast wifi or Ethernet. I am planning on doing this for all my future purchases as a server to stream my media to all devices with as much performance as possible. I think this is a much better route than another dedicated device, unless you plan to use it outside a lot, and even then with good enough data and internet you can stream it from your computer.
There's an Xbone mount/clip that I really liked for $3ish (it's like $20 official) and they might have done the same with the PS4 or 5 designed just to add a BT/USB-C controller to your phone.
SteamOS is a controller-first environment, which will give you that console feel. It's just so well done.
I can't speak to performance but I've heard game streaming works really well on the Deck.
I play a lot of "couch co-op" games with my kids while docked to a TV. Low requirements and very console-oriented. Compared to the Switch, here are some things that I bump into:
1. If you have 4 identical controllers, figuring out which is "1", "2", etc is hard. The Switch uses colors and LEDs to make this easy.
2. You need to walk over to wake it up. A controller can't wake it up if it's sleeping.
3. If you pair one of your identical controllers to something else, pairing it back is clunky since you don't know which one needs reconnecting.
But on the positive side, my young kids aren't put off by the leaky abstraction over PC gaming. They actually kind of marvel at the wide range the little device has but admit the advanced wizardry (game mods, desktop mode) can only be wielded effectively by Dad.
> 2. You need to walk over to wake it up. A controller can't wake it up if it's sleeping.
If you have a Steam Controller you can do this, as long as you use the USB dongle and not Bluetooth to connect. I have the official dock with the dongle plugged into that, and the Deck wakes up with the controller just fine.
Why not get a minipc with the AMD Ryzen 7 7840HS or Ryzen 9 7940HS CPU?
Both of those have an integrated Radeon 780M GPU which should be better than steamdeck.
Price wise they will be come out similar.
The HX99G is more expensive than something like the UM780 (7840HS)
No, the minisforum will be much more powerful. I think that CPU will be roughly twice as powerful and the GPU included (6600M) similarly roughly twice as powerful.
As the other commenter said, there are other handhelds, some getting better chips. But for your use case, you could also choose a small gaming pc or a laptop.
If you would get use out of a gaming laptop separate from attaching to your TV then that's pretty attractive choice because it does everything the mini PC does without that much more space.
I have been very happy with my Minisforum Venus UM790, though I use it as a mobile computer since I can just throw it into my backpack. It's been great to have access to AVX512 on the go.
The 6900HX has an RDNA2 GPU with 12xCU, compared to the Deck's RDNA2 with 8xCU. The Steam Deck is also limited by the power usage, the TDP is hard capped at 15W, while the 6900HX gets 45W TDP.
My issue with using the Deck as the benchmark is that it is designed for 720p. Even connected to a 4K TV, the Steam Deck by default will force the game to run at 720p, and upscale it to 4K.
If you're okay with a bit bigger, AM5 APUs are rumored to be coming out soon with BIOS updates that added support recently. I expect those to have RDNA3 like the laptop 7840HS and other chips. It'll be the first GPU update to desktop APUs since the 5600G. I'm excited and might build a new mITX to replace my own HTPC
Steam Deck has RDNA2 architecture which is pretty old now. They're probably getting rid off the last chips currently. I'd get at least Zen4/RDNA3 or, if you're in no hurry, even wait for what they release in the coming year. Especially if you want it to drive a high resolution screen...
In your opinion, are the mini pcs even worth considering? I kind of hesitate because I don't want another computer. I want a console experience that looks decent on a 55" tv (probably 1080p). The Steam Deck seems a little lo-res.
I hadn't heard of Steam Remote Play so I googled it and it looks like it's using Steam Link. I tried Steam Link to my Apple TV and it was a terrible experience. Is the Steam Deck going to be a better client than the Apple TV?
Maybe I’ll have to give it another try. There are all kinds of people who say it works great. I must have had something misconfigured because it was not playable when I tried it.
I actually use my Deck almost exclusively in docked mode. If you just want a low-cost alternative to a PC for gaming, consider picking up one of the now-discounted LCD models.
I thought I would use mine docked more than I do, but the hardware shows its weaknesses when you try to drive too many more pixels than the built-in display.
Agree, though mainly just for newer AAA games. For example, Hogwart's Legacy (which has breathtakingly good graphics on capable machines) on a docked Steam Deck is much worse than my top-of-the-line Linux AMD rig. I wouldn't expect a $500 handheld to match a $3,000 desktop of course, but I thought it worth mentioning.
If you play games like Shredder's Revenge or Stardew Valley, the graphics will be identical. But if you play AAA games and you care about graphics, you might want something more powerful.
That said, the Steam Deck works perfectly as a remote console. I.e. docked to my TV, and then "stream" the game from the gaming rig. Nvidia Shield is also a great device for that and a big cheaper if you never plan to undock it, but being able to play less demanding games locally is a big feature that makes the Deck worth it IMHO.
Poke around in the TV's options and look for "gaming mode", which is the mode where it minimizes latency by not applying whatever nonsense visual filters somebody decided to implement.
I use mine docked almost exclusively, the only thing I do is (funnily enough) stop Steam since it uses quite a chunk of RAM which I'd rather have for more Chrome tabs.
I love everything about the Steam Deck except 1 thing.
I love that its Linux based, and that you can doc it and turn it into a real PC. The interface is polished and its fast. And it's Steam, so I have all my games!
The one thing - I can't play it for more than an hour without getting hand cramps. The ergonomics just aren't very good for me.
I play games all day for my job, and I know I can play an xbox controller or a ps5 controller for 8 hours straight without problems.
Lucky, because its a Steam Deck, I can plug any controller I want into it.
There are some aftermarket attachments that supposedly help with this. I haven't tried any of them myself, but I get the same problem as you and I will probably try some out next week.
Despite the bigger overall size, the buttons on the Steam Deck aren't bigger than the buttons on a Nintendo Switch joy-con. That's why I like the Asus Ally more for having buttons that aren't too small for my big hands.
Guys, c'mon, I know that you have to have a longer bullet point list for the premium, more expensive option, but you're making your actual advantages sound stupid by including this one.
Pretty sure you can mod in any startup movie of your choice these days. The startup movies just seem to be a way to get me to waste steam points I don't have any use for on some variety of startup visual without any effort. You're not wrong.
You can even go to the point store, get a url of the preview, download it from Steam servers, put it in an appropriate Steam subdirectory and set in Steam settings to be the default.
A bit disappointing that you cannot purchase just the new OLED screen and replace it in the LCD model, considering the dimensions are the same.
I wonder what the true limiting factor for this is? I'd love to upgrade, but ~$500 feels like a little too much for the usage I currently get out of my Deck.
Selling the unit as a whole almost certainly is a loss for them, but they make money by having people buying games from them. Selling parts like that would be unlikely to have a similar effect, so they might not be able to sell it at a price point that makes sense.
deckhd [1] creators (third-party 1200p screen for deck) said it's not possible, as it will require modifying main board (something about voltage regulation, if i recall correctly)
that difference is likely because of the smaller bezel rather than the display piece itself. they have said the screen protectors and other accessories will still work
Also with the MMC option gone (so the PCB area can be reclaimed), thicker fans and cooling solution, different internal size battery and screen, I wonder if the entire mainboard has been redesigned.
With a lot of changes that probably can't be retrofit into a launch Deck, I see this as trying to attract new customers instead of old ones. Probably worth waiting on the next release with an actual spec bump in a few more years.
Does anybody here have experience using a Deck booted into Windows with VR headset connected for playing Beat Saber? How well does it work for this purpose? Not finding too much info on that particular setup online.
This revision appears to fix my main gripes with the original model so I’d like to buy one, but if I could use it as an ultraportable Beat Saber machine it’d make the purchase more justifiable. While my Quest 2 can technically run Beat Saber natively, the Steam version is vastly more mod-friendly and PCs generally don’t choke as badly on complex custom maps as the middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
i don’t understand why you want a portable beat saber setup that requires hauling around an entire VR setup + a steam deck + all of the peripherals that requires? imo you might as well buy a little laptop with a proper video card if you’re going that route. the deck’s video capabilities aren’t intended to drive VR or run windows, you’ll almost certainly have issues of a million varieties.
Mainly, it’s about maximizing usage of my devices.
At home most gaming (including Beat Saber) is done on a nice custom tower that outguns any reasonably priced gaming laptop, meaning that if I bought a gaming laptop it’d only get used when traveling and would collect dust the rest of the time. Unless of course I sell the desktop and go laptop-exclusive for games, but that comes with some notable tradeoffs (fan noise and longevity primarily).
The Deck’s form factor makes it attractive for at-home use scenarios that a desktop and laptop don’t fit as well, and a such has a better chance of getting consistent usage compared to a laptop.
It’s possible, but as noted in my other comment, the Quest version is notoriously unfriendly to modding and can chug with more complex custom maps due to weak hardware, which is problematic because I play modded/custom exclusively.
>While my Quest 2 can technically run Beat Saber natively, the Steam version is vastly more mod-friendly and PCs generally don’t choke as badly on complex custom maps as the middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
The Steam version is not more mod friendly.
>PCs generally don’t choke as badly on complex custom maps as the middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
The Steamdeck targets 720p 30 fps gaming. The Quest 2 useded the latest generation mobile processors when it released. Similarly the Quest 3 is using the top of the line mobile processors.
>One doesn’t need to mess around with sideloading and PC mods get updates more frequently
Sideloading is how you install any new software on android, so requiring it for installing modded beatsaber does not make it less mod friendly. PC updating more often is not because the PC version is more mod friendly. The reason it is slow to update on Quest right now is because modders are investing into making the next generation modding software instead of updating the coremods.
It's certainly possible, I've managed to make the game run playably on a base model 2019 macbook, but that was completely vanilla on the lowest settings I could manage. Beat Saber (especially with mods) can get pretty damn hard to run (it often lags pretty badly on my 3700X/RTX 3070), especially if you're playing noodle maps or with high poly custom sabres.
I haven't tried it but I expect you'd have a very bad time running a quest due to the encoding step, and also probably wouldn't have fun on anything newer than a vive/cv1 because the resolution is too high.
Valve: Install whatever you want from wherever you want - hardware, software, operating system.
And they provide you parts and schematics in case you need to repair/mod your device.
Never thought I'd see a day when linux gaming would be as good as what I get via my steam deck these days.
Kudos to Valve for embracing such an open approach to gaming/portable devices in general.
If that were the natural outcome Xbox would’ve “gotten it right” since it was the most PC-like console before the Steam Deck.
The moddability is a deliberate strategy by Valve, and I don’t see it as an inevitable move for every PC-centered company, Microsoft being the prime counterexample.
I think it's pretty clear that "PC-like" also means you need an open platform, with the possibility to install any software and operating system you wish, which the xbox nor any console from the major brands allows for.
It’s running Windows, and if you put it in dev mode, which is not much harder than putting a laptop off S mode, you can install anything. It works with a mouse and keyboard. Pretty close to a PC.
You can't install anything, only UWP apps that run in an extremely restrictive sandbox. You can get root on Steam Deck by switching to Desktop mode, opening the terminal and inputting a couple commands and you have full access to the hardware's bootloader.
XBMC and all the wacky homebrew software extended the life of my original Xbox by more than a decade. I still think the linksbox browser did alphabet input better than any other controller software I've seen. And it was always fun in college to host a Mario Kart 64 night (emulated on Xbox) in the dorms and see the expressions on people's faces when they looked from the controllers to the screen, and then back and forth again. :)
And I still use 2 original Xboxs at LAN parties here and there. Even with a softmod and Linux, it's still possible to system link Halo, Halo 2, Battlefront (2004), Battlefront 2 (2005), Crimson Skies, Metal Arms, and other games across at least three generations of console (Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One) with 16-to-32 people. Microsoft does backward compatibility like almost no one else, even on console.
It's getting harder to find replacement controllers, but I've found a local hardware guy in my city who can help find the right replacement parts as little pieces on the board start to fail. I plan on keeping both of mine running as long as possible!
Understandable, I was hoping there was some sort of board schematics or even block diagrams to aid in fixing blown up chips and other faults. I most often see failures on the main board and of course that's the part they don't sell you.
While no board schematic there is quite good selection of guides hosted iFixit (Valve links you there from their website so it is the "official" source)
It most often seems to be the power management/charge/USB-C chip, with no particular pattern other than "playing a demanding game". Doesn't seem to matter whether plugged in or on battery, official charger or other USB-C charger or dock. I even had it happen to my own Steam Deck (while playing Minecraft of all things) which I sent into Valve and they replaced.
I haven't been able to investigate it too much but last I looked at the data sheet for that chip it seems like there's no way it should have a hole blown in it unless something was designed wrong.
The already have most of online PC games sales through their platform and take a very healthy chunky cut off it, they don't have any financial incentive to close their platform. I also doubt they sell Steam deck at a loss like console companies do.
>I also doubt they sell Steam deck at a loss like console companies do.
They (GabeN I believe) mentioned early on that it was "painful" to hit the Deck's price point. Unsure if this means sold at a loss or just a smaller-than-ideal profit.
Valve isn’t taking some moral high ground here, they are just trying to commoditize hardware and OS platforms. It isn’t a new idea: https://gwern.net/complement
Pixels have unlocked bootloaders so you can install whatever you want, including completely open source versions of android.
You won’t be able to do mobile payment and some other things because the companies behind those other things will only allow their apps to run on locked down devices.
And it's absolutely working! So far I've spent 566€ directly on Steam this year and my willingness to spend money on GOG or EGS has dropped dramatically considering what a seamless experience I get with Steam and the Steam Deck.
Me as well. I've on Linux for years, but there was a time where I was preferring GoG for their DRM-free policy. However, Valve went all in on Linux support while GoG refused to even make a Linux version of their launcher. I still occasionally buy things from them, but Steam gained my business.
Yeah, the cdprojekt/Linux story is a weird one. They even released witcher 2 on Linux. But after all the hate they got , for it being a bad port, using some translation layer, it seems like they dropped the Linux use cases.
At least they don't go out of their way to block heroic games launcher/Linux and I'm happy with that.
It’s much easier and safer for a company to officially not support Linux, but keep an eye on issues and not block it, than to officially release a port.
Prior to having a Steam Deck, my overall video game time was fairly low since it took time to boot the PC and start everything up. With the SD, it's much easier to grab it and get a small session in, and I've purchased a number of games (and will even buy games on Steam at a higher price than elsewhere) because of the Deck. It's the price of convenience, but well worth it in my opinion.
It's not just about trying to get more people to buy stuff on Steam but also safeguard their own future, while carving out their own experience and a niche.
Back when the whole Steam on Linux started, they saw Windows 8/10 as a real threat to their existence. (Windows S?)
It's just that the way they went about to solve this in an open way is what's nice.
They improved the graphics drivers situation, invested in Wine and other open source projects, put in a lot of effort to create a user experience they wanted on a handheld device.
Ultimately this gave them a real edge over their competitors. Was surprised to see random youtubers making videos on how to install steam OS on their more powerful Rog Ally/Gpd/Home theater PC etc ..
Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that no public traded company would ever do this, or spend this much resources in things such as repairability or Linux layer improvements. It's nice that Valve is still a private company and can decide to focus on things that actually good for the space and consumers, even if it's not the most optimal use of their time.
> Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that no public traded company would ever do this, or spend this much resources in things such as repairability or Linux layer improvements.
Google used to be like this once upon a time, long long ago... (That blocks phone, unlocked bootloader on all their Nexus devices, Linux improvements for Chrome/Android etc...). Not sure if things really changed or it's just in my head, but they no longer seem that way.
Well, Pixel is still with unlocked bootloader and is the only phone on the market with which you can bake in your own signing keys, lock the bootloader and have an actually secure boot chain controlled by yourself.
It's not impossible, and large companies do regularly contribute or create their own FOSS.
But yes, there has always been a big dose of NIH from corporate. Sometimes it is warranted, but many times it's extra work on this hope that they hoard valuable tech to themselves.
albeit in software, but valve got a lot of success built on top of video game mods (see counter-strike and dota series).
they are far from saints if you zoom out (from lootboxes and fostering an official means to trade virtual items for money), but being an independent company still driven by gaming helps.
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[ 5.1 ms ] story [ 357 ms ] thread64 and 512GB LED models are dead
Wi-Fi 6E
10Whr more battery
it's a larger display. 7.4" vs 7"
6nm APU vs 7nm
256GB LCD now $399 (INSANE price)
30-50% more battery
screen resolution is the same
just OLED + HDR
1000 nits peak/600 typical vs 400 typical
90hz refresh rate
"high performance touch"
dual ambient light sensors
640 grams vs 669 grams
deck dock now $20 less
limited edition color way available too
GENERAL
Updated APU to 6 nm for better efficiency
Updated memory to 6400 MT/s, improving latency and power management
Increased thermal module thickness and performance
Increased active area to 7.4" (from 7.0")
UPDATED DISPLAY
Updated refresh rate to 90Hz (from 60Hz)
Updated peak brightness to 1000 nits
Updated touchscreen polling rate to 180Hz, improved latency and accuracy
Updated WiFi / Bluetooth module
Added support for WiFi 6E
Added support for Bluetooth 5.3, supporting newer codecs such as aptX HD and aptX low-latency
Added third antenna near the top of the device for better Bluetooth performance, including when docked
Added support for wake from Bluetooth controllers
AUDIO
Improved bass response for an overall flatter sound profile
Added support for using onboard microphone array simultaneously with the 3.5mm headphones connector
CONTROLS
Adjusted analog stick top material and shape for increased grip and dust build-up resistance
Adjusted analog stick post material to improve interaction feel with front cover and reduce wear
Improved reliability of analog stick touch detection
Improved responsiveness and tactility of shoulder buttons switch mechanism
Adjusted D-pad snap ratio and diagonal interactions
Redesigned trackpad for improved fidelity and edge detection
Greatly improved trackpad haptics feel and precision
POWER
Improved battery capacity from 40Wh to 50Wh
Improved battery chemistry for faster charging, from 20% to 80% in as little as 45 minutes
Changed charging LED to WRGB
Added support for waking up from initial unboxing by long-pressing power button instead of requiring AC power
Adjusted power supply cable length from 1.5m to 2.5m
Added logo to power supply
FRAME Reduced total system weight to ~640g, or ~5% less than Steam Deck
Rear cover screws now thread into metal
Adjusted rear cover screw heads to Torx™, as well as other materials and geometry tweaks on the heads to reduce stripping risk
Lowered number of screw types throughout system
Reduced step count required for common repairs
Improved bumper switch mechanism drop reliability
Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
Improved display repair/replacement to not require taking rear cover off
SOFTWARE
Greatly improved memory power management firmware
Added preliminary support for open-source BIOS and EC firmware
Improved resume time by roughly 30%
Imagine if apple releases had this
I'm in the US, so that seems kinda strange.
> Steam Deck Limited Edition is an experiment for our team, and we were only able to make a small quantity. That said, we hope this is a successful experiment and customers are excited – if we see there is a large demand for this kind of product, we will definitely continue to explore more colorways in the future.
I love this comment :-) So much to appreciate here.
As someone who sees the "not available in your country" quite often, I'm delighted with this mistake (it must be a mistake).
From memory it's actually not available here, due to our government level consumer protection people not putting up with Valve's bullshit a few years ago.
Edit:
>Steam Deck OLED has 30-50% more battery life. We fit a bigger battery into the case, and the OLED display draws less power.
> We fit a bigger battery into the case, and the OLED display draws less power.
(Wrote some thoughts about it after six months of ownership here: https://burakku.com/blog/steam-deck-six-month-update/ )
The one thing that I am wondering though is if the Wi-Fi 6E alone can boost download speeds. Seemed to me like the poor download speeds were also because of the storage bottlenecking. Although the Wi-Fi is definitely the weakest part of the current Steam Deck hardware, being quite unreliable at times, so any improvements on that front are welcome.
* If you're going to buy one for the first time, the new one is the one to get.
* It's worth replacing your old one.
This is probably not worth replacing your old Steam Deck (unless you have a lot of money to throw around.) But it's really nice for people who haven't bought one until now.
Higher end models come with an NVMe SSD. No way that’s slow.
As much as I love my steam deck, it kinda sucks to use after using my OLED Switch after a while. That screen is just beautiful (especially for Mario Wonder).
I have been looking for alternatives for a while now, with the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion Go but the lack of the 4 back controls being vertical have made both of those a no go for me.
Kinda wish it was beefed up a little bit (technically it looks like it is, the GPU is no longer listed as a range if you scroll down, but I am not sure why that is).
I just want official word that the drivers and everything still work on Windows. I assume it will
The Steam Deck really isn't a console in any traditional sense of the word. With there now being multiple devices like this out there, I don't think that argument works.
PC games already automatically figure out what specs to use (or at least many do) so I am still struggling with this argument.
The argument completely falls apart when you have devices like the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion GO.
It also falls apart when, unless I am mistaken, SteamOS is open for anyone to use on other devices.
The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs' performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work around issues with proton, both of which would be less likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified" badge.
IF that is the case, then the argument for why they would not increase the performance is not valid. They could have kept the same resolution but made it more powerful.
You can't say other devices will benefit and still make the argument that the steam deck had to stay at the same performance level. It's one or the other.
It's perfectly fine that Valve didn't want to upgrade it but I just don't buy the argument.
When you factor in that the niche market of slightly more powerful $600+ handhelds is already served by 4+ different players I just don't see why Valve would need to jump into it at this point. The marginal benefit is not worth the risk of fracturing the deck community and burning early adopters.
Also I should have made it more clear, but only some patches targeting the steam deck will trickle up to higher performance devices. Some patches will be things like "low shadows look like crap but medium shadows are just barely too much for the deck, lets lower medium a bit so that it can run well". I only mention that some patches will help other mobile devices because in my view its a win-win for the entire market that Valve is committed to providing a common denominator.
What makes you think this is true?
But it's increasingly similar hardware inside, consoles are increasingly supporting more general purpose computing (media apps, social networking features, web browsing, game/app stores), the experience is more customizable, patching has made it much less "the game is the game", and the stupid simple reliability has gotten much less stupid simple. I'd say that the distance between PCs and consoles has been gradually shrinking since probably the release of the PS3/360, mostly due to consoles moving closer to PCs, but the Steam Deck is a big jump towards a PC being console-y.
If one device is 1080p and one is 2160p, then even if both "render" at 1080 and one scales up to 2160 that is a change in performance. They don't want developers to have to test on multiple devices to see if it gets laggy on the one with the higher-res screen.
I thought steam deck doesn't run windows ? You install windows on your steam deck ?
It is the primary way I use my steam deck.
Edit: yes, I know EAC is Linux supported, but you can't use proton to run a Windows kernel extension.
Elden Ring uses Easy Anticheat which works fine in Proton, but Black Desert also uses EAC and it doesn't. Phantasy Star Online 2 works with Proton-GE and it used GameGuard and now Uncheater.
Here's a crowdsourced list of games with anticheat that do or do not work with Proton: https://www.protondb.com/explore?selectedFilters=antiCheat
I've used stock steam deck since its release and love it to death; but it's super flexible for those who want to install other stuff or play with it :)
Given the specifications of the rest of the device, I'm extremely happy the resolution remained the same! A bump to 1080p or similar would make games on the limited CPU/GPU that much harder to run at a reasonable frame rate while keeping a sharp image. This does not strike me as weird in the slightest - it's common sense to do here.
Not to mention how much hotter the device would run - you would be spending much more time at 15w+ in many titles, which is where the Deck starts to get hot/noisy fans spinning, and of course battery life drops.
With newer games having decoupled 3D render resolution and FSR2, a bump in output resolution no longer means an increase in CPU/GPU required. While allowing older games that aren't as resource intensive to run at 1080p.
Sure, but until we get better GPUs, it's still the better solution to not being able to play it at all. Especially with the Steam Deck being battery powered, so you can't just brute force it with higher frequencies or more hardware. Even this new Steam Deck doesn't include a better GPU.
As for Steam Deck specifically, the current display resolution it has is perfect for its size, a higher resolution is going to have marginal results - and actually worse results if you need to rely on upscaling to reach it (at which point might as well stick with the current resolution and target it natively so you wont even have the upscaler's overhead).
> actually worse results if you need to rely on upscaling to reach it
Not worse than just outputting the lower resolution. Otherwise there'd be no point of any of these upscaler.
I don't think comparing overhead to current resolution is 1:1 because modern upscalers also double as AA. Some modern games even force TAA, which upscalers replace. Especially at the lower resolutions, too less AA is more noticeable. And TAA kinda sucks.
Alan Wake 2 has FSR2 or DLSS instead of any other AA option even running them at native. Other games like Diablo IV give you the option of either TAA or upscaler.
You can notice it but IMO the drabacks are not worth it. 720p will both perform faster and use less battery. The additional fidelity isn't worth the cost.
> Not worse than just outputting the lower resolution. Otherwise there'd be no point of any of these upscaler.
IMO it is actually worse - even on my main PC any game that has the option between "smart" upscaling and plain old bilinear i always choose the latter (assuming i can't run the game at native resolution at 60fps - which sadly seems to be the case with UE5 games and my RX 5700 XT) because the other options are both (slightly) slower and look worse. They look fine on static images or if the camera/objects doesn't move much, but fast changes create noticeable artifacts - especially on third person games where often the character model has a very visible "pixelly" outline. It looks like those 2D pixel art games that arbitrarily mix resolutions and as a result create a garish result. I'd rather have the consistent quality of bilinear upscaling.
Or, to be on topic, i'd rather have no upscaling at all and have the result be at the native resolution of the monitor with the latter being at a proper size so the underlying hardware can actually reach said resolution at playable framerates.
I do not need same resolution on my 7" device as on my 27" monitor :)
TBH I don't think Windows holds it back when once I am in the game (the part that matters) the experience is the same.
Being able to instantaneously[1] pause and resume games on the Steam deck makes for a pretty great experience. The non-gaming parts also matter a lot in a portable gaming device.
1. In 3 seconds or less
I've played more PC games now than I have in the last 10 years.
But the UI; how I actually interact with the system? I care about that.
https://www.pcgamer.com/steamos-on-handheld-pcs/
Valve launched a Linux-based gaming platform called Steam OS in the early teens. Other companies made the hardware, and games had to be compiled for Linux - this was before Wine/Proton was good enough for gaming. It was open sourced, but stopped getting updated around 2018. SteamOS 1 and SteamOS 2 have public repos.
The Steam Deck launched with SteamOS 3. Many parts of it are open sourced (including gamescope-session, which lets you skip the window manager and go straight to the Steam UI), but there's no official "SteamOS 3" repo. There's a repo of unknown propriety called "evlaV" that claims to be a mirror of the official SteamOS 3 one. It's unclear where it comes from or how true/complete it is. https://gitlab.com/evlaV
SteamOS is an "immutable" Linux, which is to say that the system files are read-only. This allows ChromeOS-style updates without worrying about how someone has customized their system. It uses an application format called "Flatpaks" which skips the whole deb/rpm packaging debacle by bundling all the dependencies in a distro-agnostic container. It's a bit like how a MacOS .app folder includes everything the app needs to run.
There are also lookalikes that implement the Steam Deck UI with open source projects, like mimicking the SD's PIN unlock.
-----
Valve's main competitors in the portable PC space are Lenovo, Asus, and a bunch of Chinesium also-rans. They all ship with Windows.
There's also a vibrant community of people who buy them for the hardware, and try to replace them with as-close-as-we-can-get-without-official-repos SteamOS 3. They include:
- Bazzite: an immutable version of Fedora that uses GitHub Actions to "layer" packages on top. Basically, you write some markup that says what packages you want, GitHub mints an image, and that gets installed on your handheld. When a new version of Fedora/Bazzite comes out, your layers get rebased on top of it. (The whole immutable Linux thing is heavily influenced by Git.). Fedora is used for compatibility, but the gaming pieces (copied over from evlaV) run in an Arch container by way of Distrobox.
- Nobara: Fedora, as personally customized by a Red Hat employee to be better for gaming. His handle is GloriousEggroll, and he's also a prolific contributor to the Proton API compat layer that allows DirectX games to run on Linux.
- Jovian-Nix: NixOS, configured to run the SteamOS/evlaV packages on top
- Holo: The SteamOS equivalent of a Hackintosh: some guy in Russia modifying SteamOS to get it to work on a non-Steam-Deck.
- ChimeraOS: a distro designed for set top gaming and handhelds, derived from Arch.
Edit: Nevermind, the link in the HN post is not the actual landing page.
Rear cover screws now thread into metal
Adjusted rear cover screw heads to Torx™, as well as other materials and geometry tweaks on the heads to reduce stripping risk
Lowered number of screw types throughout system
Reduced step count required for common repairs
Improved bumper switch mechanism drop reliability
Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
Improved display repair/replacement to not require taking rear cover off
They can always rely on the gambling money. Takes 0 effort (all digital), unregulated, and it's enormously popular on Steam.
A person could reasonably argue can be exchanged vs primarily intended as a stand in for cash is important. If the items are intended as actual items people value then that's more defensible than say chips that only exist to be cashed out. (And I'm not familiar enough to know whether that's the case here)
Valve could shutdown the whole thing with one button but they don't. Do you know why because it's profit for them too. Every case and every key sold.
They pay these streamers millions of dollars, up to and including one of the streamers moving to a different country with more lax gambling laws so they could continue to gamble on the companies dime (because they are a degenerate gambler) in order to hook children on gambling.
The skins work exactly like crypto in this case, except the on-ramp is a game that millions of children play (I don't care "it's not aimed at kids", you don't need to be 18 to buy a steam gift card at the store for the skins, and the game itself is free, which is a huge lure for children without an allowance) and it is entirely unregulated.
This entire system is being used to purposely trap gambling addicts at a very young age to milk them for as long as possible in the gambling industry, for every dime they are worth, and until they have used up all possible credit they can find just to keep pressing that addiction button. Twitch is in on it too.
Nope. They are exactly the same thing. Same effect on the brain.
https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/add...
"PC gamer" correlates with "hardware tinkerer" much more strongly than "telephone user" does.
Steam Deck has been a modder's dream since it came out. Just having "desktop mode" be a standard option has been amazing.
Some people and legislators are arguing that unregulated digital gambling is very very evil
The only way for kids to gamble in CS at all is to either steal a credit card, which is obviously not Valve's fault, or for them to have a Steam gift card. If anything is to be done about the children, I think Valve should just 1) require a users to have a credit card on file in order to buy lootboxes, and 2) require re-entering the full credit card details if the user makes several purchases in a short period of time, in order to stop kids who, for example, memorized the CVV of a card already on file in Steam.
Keep in mind that uploading a government ID would have issues, seeing as in the US a driver's license is not universal, not to mention IDs all across the globe. Maybe there's an alternative form of ID that would work that I just can't think of, but anyways, I'm against needing to upload a government ID to access anything unless it's specifically for governmental purposes.
My opinion is that it is relevant... but each to their own I guess.
Regardless, many children most certainly do play Counter Strike.
I'm a former gambling addict, it is very very difficult for me to lose the amount of money I have lost at craps or blackjack playing magic the gathering.
I don't think we can classify all variable reward systems as gambling. Even competitive online chess with elo and matchmaking could be classified as gambling.
There already is, you gotta have a credit card to buy lootboxes. And while I am not aware of the situation all across the globe, in most places you gotta be 18+ to get a credit card. For a debit one you might qualify a couple years earlier in the US (and probably some other countries), but an easy solution would be for Steam to just ping the bank for info on the age of the customer. However, I am not sure if that would be easily possible, especially if we are talking about API-like approaches.
The only current workaround is using gift cards, but I somehow doubt that kids resort mostly to that instead of using their parents’ credit cards. But at that point, it is on parents, because there are all sorts of ways to solve the problem on an individual level (e.g., get a card with a low limit just for steam, use a paypal account that you have to manually log into for every transaction on steam and don’t give your kid the credentials, etc).
Unfortunately, there is no way one could feasibly stop some parents from just handing their kid a credit card and mentally checking out. And any other solution to the problem that won’t massively inconvenience adult Steam customers seems to be difficult to imagine.
But at that point it comes down to parents.
I feel most of the “children gambling” people just hate the idea of loot boxes in general, which is fine, but the argument is stronger if it’s honest.
That's true. thank you for your perspective
> Gambling (also known as betting or gaming) is the wagering of something of value ("the stakes") on a random event with the intent of winning something else of value, where instances of strategy are discounted. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration (an amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.
CS cases ticks all of the boxes. I'm really curious what your definition of gambling is.
This is very much unlike slot machines and blackjack which can and do take over people's lives.
Do you really think TCGs are not gambling? Guess people open MTG and Pokemon packs just for "fun" then.
Why would holo cards, foils, and mythic rares exist? Black Lotus is just a piece of cardboard after all.
As someone who was once addicted to these games, they should absolutely be illegal. We really should not allow corporations to print money with drug dealer methods.
Also, the reason I'm against banning such games is because when you look at all the things we find fun, you will be sad to see that a lot of them just boil down to variable reward. That variable reward aspect is what makes it fun.
You would be wrong. Even chess has variance, the better player does not always win.
Then there are games that actually integrate chance as a mechanic and are still competitive.
If you have no skill or training in chess, there's basically zero chance of you winning.
technically yes. But not all gambling is illegal. because the legal definition of gambling is more precise.
I think that's the part that is forgotten in the discussions because we conflate the casual definition with the legal one.
They were very early on in pushing “gambling for kids” with loot boxes and microtransactions.
But yeah, exposed screws are cool I guess.
I question a 30% developer fee for using Steam. Loot boxes in CS and TF2 to get and keep kids gambling. Destroying nearly every mod and skin community. I don't think I'm willing to sweep all that under the rug because they made it easier to open a steam deck.
I like Valve believe it or not, but I question a lot of these decisions.
Let me tell you about the Counter-Strike 1.6 Beta update in 2002...
https://counterstrike.fandom.com/wiki/Steam
(Geez, 21 years ago!)
But yes, you are otherwise correct. That said, I argue that Valve has done an overall good job providing value to their users and even developers.
I am OK with the 30%, because it's not a monopoly. You can use any other store, "sideload", whatever, without restrictions. I think, but I am not sure, that you could actually offer your game cheaper on other channels in parallel. But because people like the convenience of steam (which is probably one if not the best implementation of a software store) that many would pay the premium to have the game on steam.
At one time[1] Valve even tried to ban community servers that offer custom models/skins. Though they doesn't seem to enforce it anymore.
[1]: https://blog.counter-strike.net/index.php/server_guidelines/
The 30% developer fee makes a lot more sense if you consider that steam is much more than a game store. They host forums, guides, achievements, cloud saves, multiple versions of the game at once with beta channel access, screenshots, remote play, extras like Proton support, a friends list that will show you when other people are playing a game (advertising). And the store page has all sorts of stuff like ratings, reviews... a shopping cart and ability to purchase more than 1 game at a time (didn't know that was a feature, but apparently it is). And top of all that, it's just frankly where PC gamers are, so theres a ton of built in marketing.
Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's hardly just a storefront. I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut. I would question if EGS wanted the same 30% cut as valve gets. Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g
Why? Physical distribution is way more expensive and they handle the entire consumer lifecycle.
Valve has a perpetual obligation. I might buy the game and then never even download it. Or I might download the game. delete it. download the game again next week. delete it ... etc... And take 1000 screenshots that I want them to host, and upload mods for a game that they have to host and people may download. And this may happen forever (or at least until Valve ceases to be a company).
Fable III isn't even available in the Steam store anymore... but they have a repo hosting the game files. And they still take updates (the package was last updated in july 2023, even though its been off the store for years). According to SteamDB there are 14 people playing it right now. Steam has been supporting a game that they haven't even sold in the past 8 years.
I'm willing to bet that if I ask gamestop for anything regarding support for a game from 8 years ago they'd just laugh at me.
tl;dr - physical distribution has cut and dry limited obligations, but steam has to deal with stuff forever.
Imagine if you had to go to Gamestop every time you launched a game. They would kill for that opportunity. Steam has a captive audience who goes to their store every day.
you're still treating this as a software service. Remember that for a physical store:
1. you need to maintain the store. you can't have dirt bugs and grime everywhere 2. you need insurance to deal with various inevitable factors. theft, crime within store grounds, destruction of property, etc. 3. buildings break down faster than servers. you need to upkeep that. 4. security. Need to monitor the store in and outside of business hours. 5. yes, support. They manage memberships, pre-orders, process returns in or out of warranty/return period, check inventory for if older used games are around, and can route you to other locations for such product.
Its only cut and dry if you never think what is needed to maintain the norm for you.
Some of their discussion forums are incredibly toxic though, seeming to have no effective moderation.
Baldurs Gate 3 and Starfield spring to mind as clear examples, though it wouldn't surprise me if there are even worse ones around.
It was a mistake.
The Steam discussion/forums for it are here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/
I've not looked at them for ages as they were very toxic for a few weeks after launch, and I personally have no real desire to go looking again now. Maybe they've magically improved somehow, but I doubt it.
What do you mean, the game is objectively solid and is very much a continuation of the Boulders Gate series. It has flaws, but personally I think it's the best crpg i've played in years (and without nostalgia filters).
To be clear, I'm not criticizing, I just am not surprised that a certain segment of the BG1/BG2 fanbase is unhappy.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/3944650...
Steam takes 30% to make everyone slightly dumber
Particularly for a game with strong sexual representationa and inclusion, it is legitimate to discuss aspects where the inclusion is still lacking. This may be useful for the Devs future plans, or it may change nothing but be useful for other prospective players to understand about the game.
You might not find the thread useful or engaging. I don't find the threads about compatibility with hardware I don't own useful or engaging. Not every thread is for every person.
But point being, Steam is a whole platform. When THPS 1+2's "Upload a custom skate park" broke, I just hit shift+tab and clicked discussions, and bam. theres discussions about it being broken for other people. and I didn't even have to launch the game, I could just go to discussions from the game on steam to see when it was fixed. I didn't have to go googling for everything.
And the beauty of it, is that valve hasn't made all of it a walled garden. It's a nice garden, but they do a pretty good job of not keeping it completely locked down (which is the main reason why proton has been so successful).
So no, Steam won't moderate your forums for you, but they will host the forums and you don't have to have your own/none. But then again, that might be more of a benefit to the customers than to the devs who may not care.
Whether it should may be a different issue.
That, and Steam hasn't really burned many folks, ever. They even pioneered returns after you played the game...
As a user, I've never once been mad at Steam.
They were forced to do so by the Australian government, so it was hardly "pioneering".
But yeah, difference is Valve knows to be good to consumers (mostly) but make dev support a nightmare if you're not big enough.
> Valve must pay a fine of AU$3 million (about £1.6m/US$2.3m/€1.8m) for misleading Steam users in Australia by stating they were not entitled to refunds for faulty games on Steam
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/australia-fines-valve-over-...
okay, here's the EU part: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/new-valve-refund-poli...
not brought to court but that right-to-return law put another fire under their butt for sure.
I think like many new things it got off to a rocky start in 2003 and 2004 (especially with the launch of Half-Life 2). I only started using Steam on 2007 I think and I've never had an issue.
"Steam" is not just a game store. It's like if walmart built an entire industry around maintaining, supporting, and extending anything you sold through them. 30% is a lot, but Valve is the only company out of basically the entire retail industry actually providing value to sellers and buyers alike, rather than just a storefront.
The CS:GO child gambling problem is HUGE though, and unconscionable. I don't know how Gabe feels about that, but I don't care. It should be exceptionally illegal to give a child access to a "gambling like" game that ever touches real money.
That 30% cut still seems egregious. Those features are all nice but none of them can be used to make a game.
Unity is even cheaper, at 2.5%.
Is 30% fair? I don't really have an opinion, but putting your game on steam isn't required for game development.
30% does seem a bit too high, though. I’ll grant you that.
30% is the standard retail cut if I’m right. So if you sell your game at Walmart, they take 30% too.
Edit: There is actually a way to bypass Steam’s cut - provide by Valve strangely enough - if I’m right. As developer you can mint as many API keys for your games as you like and sell those through other means. Your customers will still download and play through Steam but Steam gets nothing - i.e. you use their infrastructure for free; of course they would get their cut from copies sold via their store.
The difference is people actually like using Steam. They actually want to be locked in. I'd rather by a game on Steam vs Gog. Consider that. DRM free, but people prefer the lock-in. That's because Valve is nailing it.
Imagine people saying the same about Microsoft, Epic, EA etc.. Nope.
But also yes. Steam has made the gaming on linux process so much easier. Using steam is the easiest way to game now and I definitely prefer all my games to be there.
>The difference is people actually like using Steam. They actually want to be locked in.
yup, and that's where the danger starts. People like being locked into Apple as well. the consoles all conditioned people to being locked in. I understand it, but don't think it's a good thing.
Microsoft does technically have a lock in with PC, but they have enough historical lawsuits on those issues that they are lax on what is hosted on Windows. The reckoning for Apple/Google is definately coming, though.
Console manufacturers charge a separate per unit royalty for every game published for their consoles, typical in the range of 10-20%.
That’s how they make most of their money before online stores - the console is sold at near break even typically but they do earn on extra accessories.
The store charges are separate and independent.
I don't. I just use Windows and Linux occasionally and that reminds me why I prefer Mac OS.
It's easy to get lock in effects when the alternatives are crap wrt usability. Even if you can get larger numbers for less money on the spec sheet.
I don't like being locked into Apple, but I can't argue with the extraordinary convenience of doing it their way. New iPhone or iPad? Just set it next to your old one and it will pull everything over. New Mac? You can clone from a backup of a different Mac. I started with an iPad, got a Mac a few years later, and finally got an iPhone after Google released the amazing (loved the fingerprint reader on the back for unlocking) but disastrous (the battery would decide to go to hell one day, no warning, and you were losing 30+% of power per hour) Nexus 6P.
What they clamped down on was developers who built $0.01 game for trading cards farming. Now Valve just have some fair usage rules so developer of game that sold 10 copies on Steam can't request 1,000,000 keys for it.
Disclosure: I am indie game studio co-fouder so Steam keys is something we deal with.
But yes they have clamped down on the fake games for trading card farming too.
AFAIK it's perfectly fine to temporary run something like lowest-ever price outside of Steam on a condition that within some timeframe (not sure about timing) there will be similar sale on Steam.
Also, both Xbox and PlayStation have more-or-less all those things you mentioned but you get subsidised hardware in the deal too.
Also nice to be able to buy some new games and run them on an old laptop, can't do that on my xbox 360 anymore. My library all runs on my latest computer too. At least xbox makes a fair amount of the catalog backwards compatible, it's not a thing on Playstation.
edit: plus I can give friends access to my entire library, providing I'm not using it at the time.
https://github.com/m4dEngi/RemotePlayWhatever
Or is that only PS?
Free-to-play games can be played online without a subscription, but paid games require a subscription - I imagine as a holdover from pre-Fortnite days and cross-platform play.
I'm a subscriber for the game catalogue and only really play online multiplayers that are F2P anyway, but yeah it doesn't seem at all justifiable. It's a strange decision too - I can't imagine the subset of people who are NOT subscribers for the monthly games and/or catalogue AND are playing games online that are NOT f2p is big enough to be a significant impact to their bottom line. If anything it would be a deterrent from choosing the platform.
If developers don’t like it, they can chose other options to distribute their game.
When I care about supporting a developer or publisher and they offer their product on their own storefront DRM-free, I will often go there to buy. Or I buy from GoG which takes a smaller cut. Playnite lets me launch my Steam and non-Steam games in a seamless fashion. Steam still does a great job as a game installer/patch manager, and helps me discover new games. But I'm not locked into paying them a 30% fee, which is pretty brutal for some smaller publishers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/playnite/comments/15q2x16/i_install...
I have only used it on my Windows install, so I can't recommend this.
Let me know when I can install fdroid on iOS.
They back off when they find out my line of work, but you hear about bullying and peer pressure in school over bubbles. That does not end when you leave high school.
One VC said that people that buy Android don't have taste and wouldn't work with them. Now they say Android is for poor people. Freedom to sideload or install a custom os be damned.
It's not a high school thing, it's just amplified during that point in life; there is always pressure to conform.
I don't care about whether or not some VC thinks I have class either professionally or personally. Avoid people that jump to conclusions and you'll be better off, regardless of how fancy their personal titles are.
I'm one of them. We are not all the same!
But yeah, ideally one shouldn’t tie self worth to perishables.
I find dealing with Android users from iMessage tiring but everyone I know who uses Android also uses WhatsApp and that works just fine cross platform.
They even did deep, dirty tricks like this: https://uxdesign.cc/how-apple-makes-you-think-green-bubbles-.... Not only that but Apple just love to lean heavily on their own custom functionality rather than coming up with open/reusable technologies. Apple are happy to use Wifi & Bluetooth standards to compete in the market, but not so much standards for chats/group chats (where Android users find things don't mesh as well/they don't have the same functionality as iOS users).
I can't for the life of me find it now, but I remember reading an article a while back on how Google found a way to trick iPhones into accepting Android messages as "blue bubble"/iOS messages by dumping some string onto the end or something. I'm sure it was a HN post but I can't find it, which sucks cause it was pretty funny reading.
...?
It's Steam or bust for the vast majority.
If the market is not being artificially suppressed (I don't believe it is), and developer still think it's financially advantageous to pay Steam's fees, doesn't that indicate the fee is "correct"?
yeah, that's my issue. but it's all or nothing because the only thing that really matters is presence. So you just suck it up or use another store (or distribute independently).
>Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing.
It's really just network effects at the end of the day. We've seen enough instances in other places in tech where the de facto is shit and even actively ruining its product, but people stay.
Sad thing isn't how big it is, it's how hard it is to fail.
I'd love to see a "what has Steam ever done for us?" sketch produced :)
https://www.pcgamer.com/lawsuit-claims-valve-is-abusing-its-... https://www.masonllp.com/case/valve-mass-arbitration/
It's apples and oranges.
It's worth pointing out that this is for cosmetics. The largescale lootbox outcries have been exclusively about gameplay advantages. Games that only provide cosmetics are usually praised for being fair. For example, Overwatch also has lootboxes - but for cosmetics only - and nobody gives a damn.
And then there's cards, which you earn for free, and can sell for a wallet balance in order to buy games.
> keep kids gambling
I don't believe this is their goal, even though they certainly aren't doing enough to prevent it.
It was such a neutral system and I literally never felt any type of FOMO or pressure to buy lootboxes, which can't be said for other games with similar systems.
I would argue they still aren't evil (and Apple is, though I am a shareholder) because Steam, the Windows store and Epic can all live together on my PC as competing store / DRM. If a developer doesn't want to give up 30%, they have viable alternatives.
Is it a great way to get publicity? No. Is it a perfectly reasonable way to sell a game? Yes.
Also, what small-time indie game is >100gb?
This is a thread about steam charging a 30% cut and people asking about what costs they could possibly have?
If Steam didn’t take a cut then they would not be able to pay for bandwidth. And even a 100 mb indie game downloaded a million times is still a lot of bandwidth times that by tens of thousands of games and it’s more than just games, screenshots, saves, mods, forum posts, video trailers, patches, etc.
A one time sale of a 4 dollar game that could support 100 gb worth of mods with being able to delete, download, and reinstall dozens of times has ongoing costs.
Selling on your own website, yes, you should be able to cover sending your own exe 100gb or not with each sale.
I think the point was that if you were hosting independently, your video game isn't going to be 100+ GB. You will handle the costs or build it into the price of the game.
Dunno how thin margins Valve operates on, but I think they can survive on less than 30%, especially since they offer lower rates to AAA studios.
I can't say if it's truly worth the 30%, but I sure don't want to be handling all those services myself or through others.
I also remember reading an article from way back when that said that brick and mortar revenue cuts were at _least_ twice what Steam was taking. Perhaps this memory is totally wrong... with today's Google I'll certainly never be able to find the source of the memory.
As a casual gamer I am not willing to dig around the internet to look for games.
But if I stumble upon something random on Steam there is a chance I will buy it.
That stuff isn't easy but fortunately Valve isn't the only one offering that, and pretty much every other storefront offers lower rates if that's important.
I assume such dev can and should also use all other available promotion options of course.
So from my pov 30% is fine to pay. Especially that after initial effort of putting game in.
If valve wants to earn those 3 dollars, they need to ensure my game can be discovered to begin with. "becsuse there's a lot of people on steam" doesn't cut it these days. That was valuable at one point but I'd say aroind 2014 or so it ceased to be so.
30% was more reasonable in 2005-2006 when steam was getting it's first third party games on the platform (and games were cheaper as well, a selling point for digital distribution at the time, which has no longer existed for many years due to greed) and when compute and bandwidth was massively more expensive than it is today. These days the cut should be closer to 5-10% at most.
> Destroying nearly every mod and skin community.
I miss those days so much. When I was a teenager there was always new maps and mods for hl1/hl2 to try out. Now modding in pretty much every game and it's community doesn't compare, most developers won't ever release tooling for their engines and will sue people who reverse engineer their games to make third party tooling. Even 'mod friendly' developers like paradox and bethesda don't like people making changes that affect core gameplay too much and will strip out functionality to prevent people from doing it because they would rather pump out shovelware DLCs to make money.
Valve lucked out by doing all the enshittification in the late 2000s/early 2010s when their reputation was at it's highest. If they had cultivated this same following today and then rug pulled in the way they did in the past they would have killed their business entirely. Imagine if CDPR/A ctiblizzard/EA announced they would never make a game again and would only sell third party games through GOG/Battlenet/Origin, their distribution platform. Their business would be gone in a matter of months.
It's interesting to see this randomly thrown out, I'm curious if there's any basis for this? Epic Games currently takes 12% and five years later they're still unable to turn a profit. That's for a store that wrote a brand new launcher that's worse than Steam's and they don't have nearly half the features Steam does.
I believe Humble takes 5% and they're also not doing that well.
5% would hardly even cover the CC fees. Not to mention refunds.
What does Valve actually make with all this money? That rake on billions for basically doing nothing and like since HL2 the amount of games they actually developed was very low. Alyx was a niche game for VR only. Maintaining and improving CS and calling it 2.0 is hardly anything considering what they could do. Dota 2 they just bought it. Steam machines failed and it was never that they actually sell hardware with a loss. So seriously where is all this money going?
I can only assume straight into Gabens and other high level execs pockets at Valve.
The also did not start from scratch and just used Wine and build upon this and payed the guy who did DXVK ... its hardly eating up billions to come up with something like the Steam Deck and Proton. Steam OS is basically just Arch Linux now so its hardly anything revolutionary from scratch.
Do not get me wrong I like all these things but I stand by what I said. I fail to see where all the money is going. Take a SINGLE AAA game where Valve rakes in 30% of the profits for a few distribution servers and a few forum mods. They have invented a money printing machine and for like 20 years the have been printing money and there is nothing visible for anyone to actually see. They do not even make games. Other game devs do not have billions at their disposal and develop games with high budgets and at a 100x faster pace. I stand by what I said, the money goes straight into Gabens and other exec pockets, the have nothing to show for it. The Index is expensive AF its not that they made a loss with it. They make profits with everything they do, especially the Steam Deck.
Steam controller also failed but its not that they wasted billions on that failed product either. I never tried it, I think the idea was great but the layout was wrong, buttons should not be on the bottom.
You tell me where all the money is going. Like do you really think they spend even more the a tiny tiny fraction of that they made on paying open source devs and deving the Steam Deck? The already had their money printing machine loooooong b4 the Steam Deck was even an idea. WTF did they do with it?
> You tell me where all the money is going
> Other game devs ... develop games ... at a 100x faster pace
> Steam controller
> The Index
Steam Controller gave us Steam Input, which works with:
- Steam Controllers
- Xbox 360 controllers
- Xbox One controllers
- Xbox One S controllers
- PS3 Controllers
- PS4 Controllers
- PS5 Controllers
- WiiU Pro Controllers
- Switch Joycons
- Switch Pro controllers
- A bevy of other third party controllers
All with shareable layouts, hosted by Valve.
The Index gave us Steam VR, which supports:
- Valve Index
- Oculus Rift
- Oculus Rift S
- HTC Vive
- HTC Vive Pro
- HTC Vive Cosmos
- Razer OSVR
- Pimax 4K, 5K, 5K Plus, 8K, and 8K Plus
- Dell Visor
- Samsung Odyssey and Odyssey+
- Acer AH101
- HP WMR
- Lenovo Explorer
- HP Reverb
- Varjo VR-1 and VR-2
Along with their support for OpenXR.
Not to mention Remote Play, and the variety of platforms they support with that. Or the hosting for cloud saves.
I'm not saying this costs billions, but I do think you're missing quite a bit of what Valve do when they launch something. There's quite a lot visible for people to actually see and use.
Good video on it: https://youtu.be/eMmNy11Mn7g?si=dwotdKXKu5mHLZWg
Valve charges 30% because customers want all the stuff that comes with steam. They work for that 30% unlike smartphone ecosystems that offer a closed ecosystem and can lock competitors out of their platform.
you're free to. I will offer Itch.io as a modern alternative: https://itch.io/
almost zero restrictions on games you can upload, and they let you set your own share, even down to 0% if you so please. I think the default is 10%, which seems reasonable.
>Valve charges 30% because customers want all the stuff that comes with steam
not really. they charge 30% because they can leverage their 90% market share on small devs. In fact, they already relented and offer a lower share if you sell more than like, 25m copies. That suggests that they do need to work to keep AAA stUDIOS from making their own stores (again).
It's all about market dynamics. And I bet many steam users just use it for network effects.
What on earth is this referring to? Steam doesn't inhibit moding at all. Heck, it has built in mod support that's used by games like Oxygen Not Included and Rimworld and it's huge ( https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/ ).
Steam also doesn't bat an eye at mods from outside of the client and there's no shortage of mod managers that work with steam - Vortex, CKAN, r2modman, etc...
I think he's talking about cs, but last I checked it had a massive modding community.
Unless he meant custom skins on official servers, but that's how you can cheat so.
They do know what they are doing to the environment themselves, though, despite the public’s blind eye they are making at least some effort to research more biodegradable materials.
Devs are free to move to Epic Store/Microsoft Store if it bothers you that much. That's the beauty of PC, your computer is not tied to a single store.
They don't because they know those stores don't have the market share Steam has. The people have spoken.
My last macbook needed to have a battery replaced during Apple Care (after only 2 years) and they just gave me a new body (no dents, same specs, same keyboard layout, transplanted the ssd - or transferred the data, not sure) and plugged it to the old screen.
If they don't bother swapping a battery...
Your repair was probably done by moving your laptop's motherboard into a new lower case (with a corresponding new battery glued in).
It's not as if there's any space for them to slide around, they're a fairly tight fit in a compact device, and there's got to be plenty of other options to keep them in place if there is a little bit of looseness to deal with.
(I guess they'll use safety as an excuse, to reduce the risk of the damage to cells. But it's not the real reason, is it?)
When the battery is at its most contracted state it can move if it's not fixed to the case by some means. Movement of the battery puts stress on the connectors and can lead to a short (or worse).
Gluing the battery in the case is a safe way of fixing it in place inside the case. Screw tabs would give the opportunity during assembly of puncturing the battery casing with a tool or screw. They could also work themselves loose with the thermal expansion cycles.
But people like the thought-terminating "Apple bad" narratives.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62wUaJUh4Ko
Replacing the cells inside one of those packs would have been similarly difficult to ungluing and replacing the batteries in more recent Apple laptops, but there was a lot less reason to rebuild those battery packs.
Its crazy stuff. You are telling me they cant think of a secure way to use a mechanical, screwed system that is able to cope with the thermal expansion. I find that hard to believe. I believe it is mostly cost and profit incentive, MAYBE safety, but I also doubt that last one.
Do you think the iphone 15 being USB-C was Apple's idea too?
Lisa Jackson has probably the hardest job at the whole company, to drum up the stats and relativism to make it look like they are trying at all in any meaningful way, and not just lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences.
All electronics are the result of dystopian horors, and they generally don't have a very good shelf life. Are you aware of how many SuperFund sites are in Silicon Valley?
Apple's the worst, except for all the rest? I should lay off Apple because they're doing better than their competitors?
You're not opening any eyes by saying everyone is doing terribly, you're just responding to dissent with tired whataboutism and false claims of futility.
The market and regulators and device builders and customers could do better and should.
Apple wants to claim be leader in this space, they should do so with substance.
Until we find a way of mineral extraction and purification that isn't terrible, electronics are going to be bad. Could Apple work to improve that? Yes, and they should too. My point, which I'd argue is pragmatic, is that Apple makes the longest lived devices you can currently buy, and not by a little but by a lot.
Demonizing the current front runner in a competition you care about? ...well lets just say you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar
The latter is such a poor environmental choice, that it negates the former, but you don't see it yet.
Disagree. Glue isn't really that hard to deal with and likely makes the phone substantially more waterproof. It's really not hard, at all, to deal with glue, it's typically dissolves in acetone and only requires mild heat to overcome.
Nonetheless, you're selling "typically dissolves in acetone" as a user friendly, easy to repair, best in the industry experience? Should we give them a special award with text that is flanked by sprigs of wheat?
You don't realize how low you are setting the bar here.
Buddy, you just said, and I quote: "lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences."
Get a grip.
How about you get a dictionary and encyclopedia and learn what dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences are?
Then look at Apple's factories, mining operations, glued together, locked down, borderline unrepairable products, and a big old pile of lightning cables and see that is an apt, fair and even charitable description of their activities.
Or you can just take yours and grip them to your chest and cry, whatever works for you.
* always had the longest software support lifecycle in the industry. Only recently has Google tried to match them. My six year old iPhone only just stopped getting support for the current iOS release; it will still get security updates for a few more years.
* can be repaired quickly from parts likely stocked in repair shops almost anywhere in the world thanks to the relatively small number of models, whereas a local repair shop is unlikely to have parts for an Android phone, unless you happen to have a phone that was sold in large numbers in that locale
* can have its battery replaced with legitimate OEM parts, retaining waterproofing and whatnot, by Apple or third party shops who have been certified to do the repair correctly. No Android manufacturer does anything close to any of this.
* was one of the first phones to throttle CPU speed when it detects rising internal resistance from battery aging, thus prolonging the device's lifespan (which everyone shit on them for, claiming it was designed to 'force' people to upgrade, when it was exactly the opposite - it kept people's phones working longer than they otherwise would)
* has a charge/data connector much more durable than standard USB connectors, and it's still not placed on the motherboard like nearly every Android phone does; it's on an easily replaced board. The whole EU USB-C debacle about consumer rights. It was about other companies eliminating Apple's competitive advantage with the Lightning port, denying consumers the right to choose a different connector other than the planned obsolescence USB connectors. And you know what else? Nobody's iPhone has ever been fried by a Lightning cable, but there was a huge debacle over USB-C cables that would fry anything they were plugged into.
There's a reason iPhones retaining their value in the used market for years - and Android phones depreciate like a lead balloon.
> lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences.
Ooooookay then.
I use these products and am deeply invested in them. They are good, but much farther from perfect than you think. All of these stats are hollow relativism.
If two companies were detonating atom bombs in your neighborhood, but one provided you and your family with super solid umbrellas to catch the ash, you'd probably be swollen with praise for them as well.
There I go demonizing again... I really shouldn't be comparing a corporation with greater market value than the GDP of some countries to a nation state with the power to instigate generational environmental disasters. Totally different, not worthy of comparison at all.
If you're advocating that the average user, or differently abled users get comfortable with the tweezers and pentalobe screws in order to extend the lives of their devices, I'm afraid you've lost the plot.
For a few gens now "simple" to swap out iPhone parts like screens need to be purchased directly from Apple and authorized to go into the device that's being repaired via IMEI. This kills off tons of third party market options. Imagine if vehicle manufacturers required that you buy all replacement parts from them. In the case of vehicles, there are tons of used, reconditioned, and third party parts available that work just fine as replacements.
This kind of behavior is why I'll never "buy" an Apple device; you never truly own it and can do what you want to do with it, from both hardware and software perspectives.
https://screenrant.com/apple-self-service-program-requires-s...
It's very easy to be user friendly when your business model is relying on piracy, they even showed an emulator in a now deleted trailer
Valve didn't sell hardware for half its lifetime, and the hardware it sold were on small margins. Steam Deck is a success selling a few million, the vita was a bomb selling 10m (very conservative estimate. you'll see 15m when googling). Economies of scale
>It's actually weird that there aren't many alternative implementations of consoles in current times
where's the allure anymore? the PC and mobile hardware can do that just fine. those alt knockoff consoles came at a time where owning a PC was a huge premium.
That said, there are a few modern alt consoles to consider as a hobbyist:
https://play.date/
https://www.analogue.co/pocket
https://www.arduboy.com/
but they very intentionally aren't trying to compete with modern games.
These things are "illegal" because these corporations can afford to turn the justice system into a legal bullying mechanism. They don't like what you do? They threaten to set your money on fire if you don't stop. Most people just obey because they don't really want to impoverish themselves fighting them.
There's no telling what would actually happen if it actually went to court though. I've read too many court cases where these game companies lost to just believe them when they say it's "illegal". The problem is always the fact they win in the end simply by having deeper pockets: the other party often gets bankrupted despite the victory. Bleem and Virtual Game Station come to mind. True justice would have been these alternative implementations of the consoles competing with the real thing on equal footing on day one.
> where's the allure anymore?
There weren't clones of any of the consoles of the previous generations though. Modern consoles are basically glorified PCs but a PS2 and NDS weren't.
A 40 year old with a twenty year back catalog of Steam titles gives me plenty of things to play.
Why would anyone ever want that? If you buy a device, you are supposed to be able to do anything you want with it, including running emulators or whatever.
Thankfully, even when vendors want to prevent people from doing that, they often screw it up and leave exploits that allow people to regain control. Even funnier when they then try suing random people for that to compensate for their engineering skill issue/make an example etc.
I'll give them a pass on Gamecube and later as that generation can still look pretty good.
I would probably subscribe if they got the back catalog right. But it's no bother to me really, it's trivial to emulate their games right up to the Wii U.
Why? no one expects all PS1 games on PS now, nor all OG Xbox games on gamepass.
If people still want to buy ports or subscriptions instead of figuring out emulation, that's their choice.
Knowing the majority of the NES > N64 Nintendo back catalog is coming at a reasonable pace would be a reason to subscribe to their online service, assuming it is all available at the base sub price.
The steam deck exists primarily to expand their targetable market.
It's of no benefit to them if people's devices fail - they just stop buying games (unlike Apple, where the devices are intended to slow down or stop working altogether).
I liked the direction you were going, but I don’t think you made the right comparison. iPhones, for example, are used 30-60% longer (4-10 years) than a Samsung phone (3-6 years). Apple provides software updates for all of their devices for 6+ years.
I’ve had very few devices containing lithium ion batteries that didn’t require a new battery. I have devices from the early 2000s from Sony, HP, Dell, Nikon, and countless others whose batteries have failed.
[0] https://uspto.report/company/Valve-Corp/patents
No matter what you think of them as a company Steam is a license to print money, of course basically everything they do is in service of it...
That Valve is a software distribution company.
Today, it is still one of the highest quality consumer VR headsets. It has not dropped in price yet.
Stop spreading disinformation please
Even Marques Brownlee [0] said he's going to rate gadgets' green/sustainability creds from now on, after reviewing the Fairphone.
0. https://www.youtube.com/user/marquesbrownlee
They were consumer electronics devices, most of the expansion possibilities were via external devices connected on an expansion port of some sort, and that was about it.
Naturally this model offers better margins than selling PC components on thin razor margins, which is why even the PC world is going into that direction, leaving custom PCs for hardcore gammers and servers, where OEMs can also enjoy higher margins.
Looks like a pain to install, though. Saw a time-lapse of the process on LTT and it looked like it involved removing just about every single screw and fastener in the entire device.
Edited to add: the "Torx Plus" design's patent expired in 2011, which was put in place in 1990 as the original Torx patent was expiring then. Some more nuance, but there ya go.
[1] US 3,584,667, https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
[2] US 5,207,132, https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
edit: Also, you said Hex and I'm assuming you meant Torx (since GGP did). But that could very easily be a bad assumption, so I apologize if it is.
Use quality tools, there is absolutely no problem, there's even an ISO standard (10664), there is absolutely no reason for ambiguity. Just stop buying shit.
Torx has tremendous benefits which is why it is a fastener of choice for high value items on cars. They're also used in high volume construction, they wouldn't be if they "sucked".
My awkward hands where DS, Switch, PS and Xbox controllers all give me cramps after around ten minutes of play time.
N64 not so. It's why I've always been a PC gamer.
pretty sure the switchdeck is just a dbrand skin?
Oh and that sexy support of Linux. It won a loyal customer for life (or until they get acquired and get enshitified to death).
> Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
These are such a big deal, and such a design flaw in the first deck.
The most breakable part(eg. From any drop) requires valve to do the repairs because the same board houses the most complicated parts
I do not know if they are going this route with the Index, that thing is notoriously bad build, and it breaks for people after a very short lifespan all the time. Basically almost every serious reviewer complained how their Index broke after X months. I do not think its easy to repair at all and does Valve sell spare parts? It should life longer in the first place.
I've also spent a while in VRChat where these issues would be discussed and I've never seen anyone mention that the index in not durable.
Watt Hours: 40 Wh
Voltage: 7.7 V
Milliamp Hours: 5200 mAh
https://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/pla...
Which is how they could pull the APU shrink off without breaking the bank.
And... Is the OLED not VRR? That was my #1 wish for the original Deck (with #2 being an OLED).
Those are all things you particularly want on the Deck.
For what it's worth too, my experience gaming on Wayland has been great from a consistency perspective. Once you dial in settings that work, the only performance blips you can notice are related to shader compilation. 144hz feels like 144hz, which has not always been the case on Linux.
[0] https://youtu.be/Z1KLj06fn2s?t=257
I tried to get my 3090 working in Wayland/KDE/Arch for about a month (after repeatedly running into the same issues on my 2060 laptop) and gave up.
AMD IGP output it is... and I just game on Windows instead. But even then, neutering the leftover bits of the Nvidia driver (which I need for CUDA) that keep breaking electron/chromium is making me pull my hair out. I still hold my breath opening VSCode, wondering if its going to freeze or not.
Try using a dedicated rail or another PSU if you have one.
I have literally all the exact same issues on my RTX 2060 Asus G14 laptop, like:
- GPU rendering broken in Wayland Chromium/Electron, and sometimes Firefox
- Occasional black screen on boot, from some kind of race condition.
- Unpredictable artifacting on the KDE desktop and some apps.
And I still get some of that when Nvidia DRM is disabled and I'm just using the 4900HS/7800X3D for display out. Completely disabling the Nvidia GPU fixes all of it, every single thing, but then I can't use CUDA.
I'm also running everything on NixOS, so assume there's a fair bit of fairy dust blessing the config. Besides enabling modeset and cudatoolkit manually though, I don't think there's much special about my software setup.
If it wasn't for AI, I'd upgrade to AMD right now. But ROCm and the CUDA translation layer don't quite seem to be there yet.
According to LTT it is due to the physical connection. Basically the panel is the same as Switch OLED and thus uses whatever it uses which is MIPI and thus no VRR (need eDP for that). The hardware clearly supports it (just plug an external display with VRR support into the deck and it works)
https://youtu.be/uCVXqoVi6RE?t=179
Basically Valve doesn't do large enough volume to make proper custom display economical so they have to take whatever they can get.
Makes sense. The highest volume OLED with the right size is... the Switch's!
>Basically Valve doesn't do large enough volume to make proper custom display economical so they have to take whatever they can get.
Yeah exactly. I see a lot of online complaints (mostly outside HN) about no new APU or no custom display, but the capital costs of doing either from scratch are just hilariously high.
I think one side of the mother glass has a few extra pixels that you can just not cut off and end up with the 80 pixels more on one direction?
If you start from a panel that cuts perfectly to 8K or 4K TV panels and you keep halving it won't go down evenly to 720p as it is not half of 1080p (1440p is half of 4K and 1080p is half of 1440p so they come out nicely without any wasted panel/pixels by cutting in half)
But I don't think that's gonna happen until Zen 5, and only if we're lucky and AMD restarts the Van Gogh successors they canceled[1].
1: https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-6000-notebook-roadmap-...
I'm looking for something small because I don't have room for anything bigger. The Steam Deck is appealing because it doesn't seem very computer-y. What I want is a console that plays PC games. I've tried SteamLink between my desktop computer and AppleTV but it was a terrible experience.
Is there something better than the Steam Deck that isn't expensive (ie not more than $2000).
I came across a google doc a while back where people were obsessively cataloging them. There are many which have come out in the last 2 years. You have your pick of options. They usually run from 400 - 1200.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1irg60f9qsZOkhp0cwOU7...
ETA: This list has gotten out of hand, lol
I wish they would summarize with some recommendations. Maybe a $500 recommendation, $1000 recommendation, $1500 recommendation, and the best overall.
If you want one which also docks and is a serviceable PC, filter that list for stuff which can run Windows/Linux and also comes with a Ryzen 5/7. Bigger number is better CPU (you'll notice above the 7k Ryzen series, it gets an A on Switch emulation).
Take a look at the spread of prices and battery capacity and decide what candidates are important for you, and lastly check the reviews to see if any of them have quality/usability issues.
It "just works," like a console. Which would be another good option.
Are there any other clues about them working on the console?
There's an Xbone mount/clip that I really liked for $3ish (it's like $20 official) and they might have done the same with the PS4 or 5 designed just to add a BT/USB-C controller to your phone.
I can't speak to performance but I've heard game streaming works really well on the Deck.
I play a lot of "couch co-op" games with my kids while docked to a TV. Low requirements and very console-oriented. Compared to the Switch, here are some things that I bump into:
1. If you have 4 identical controllers, figuring out which is "1", "2", etc is hard. The Switch uses colors and LEDs to make this easy.
2. You need to walk over to wake it up. A controller can't wake it up if it's sleeping.
3. If you pair one of your identical controllers to something else, pairing it back is clunky since you don't know which one needs reconnecting.
But on the positive side, my young kids aren't put off by the leaky abstraction over PC gaming. They actually kind of marvel at the wide range the little device has but admit the advanced wizardry (game mods, desktop mode) can only be wielded effectively by Dad.
If you have a Steam Controller you can do this, as long as you use the USB dongle and not Bluetooth to connect. I have the official dock with the dongle plugged into that, and the Deck wakes up with the controller just fine.
Yeah, the Steam Deck is exactly that and I've been extremely happy with mine.
Just be aware of some caveats:
- It's not powerful enough for the most demanding games
- Some games have evil anti-cheat or is otherwise not supported by proton yet (unless you install Windows, which you totally can)
As the other commenter said, there are other handhelds, some getting better chips. But for your use case, you could also choose a small gaming pc or a laptop.
If you would get use out of a gaming laptop separate from attaching to your TV then that's pretty attractive choice because it does everything the mini PC does without that much more space.
My issue with using the Deck as the benchmark is that it is designed for 720p. Even connected to a 4K TV, the Steam Deck by default will force the game to run at 720p, and upscale it to 4K.
If you're okay with a bit bigger, AM5 APUs are rumored to be coming out soon with BIOS updates that added support recently. I expect those to have RDNA3 like the laptop 7840HS and other chips. It'll be the first GPU update to desktop APUs since the 5600G. I'm excited and might build a new mITX to replace my own HTPC
If you play games like Shredder's Revenge or Stardew Valley, the graphics will be identical. But if you play AAA games and you care about graphics, you might want something more powerful.
That said, the Steam Deck works perfectly as a remote console. I.e. docked to my TV, and then "stream" the game from the gaming rig. Nvidia Shield is also a great device for that and a big cheaper if you never plan to undock it, but being able to play less demanding games locally is a big feature that makes the Deck worth it IMHO.
A minor gripe; overall the Steam Deck blew me away with its capabilities, ease of use, and attention to detail.
I love that its Linux based, and that you can doc it and turn it into a real PC. The interface is polished and its fast. And it's Steam, so I have all my games!
The one thing - I can't play it for more than an hour without getting hand cramps. The ergonomics just aren't very good for me.
I play games all day for my job, and I know I can play an xbox controller or a ps5 controller for 8 hours straight without problems.
Lucky, because its a Steam Deck, I can plug any controller I want into it.
Trade-off is no space for the touchpads
Guys, c'mon, I know that you have to have a longer bullet point list for the premium, more expensive option, but you're making your actual advantages sound stupid by including this one.
I wonder what the true limiting factor for this is? I'd love to upgrade, but ~$500 feels like a little too much for the usage I currently get out of my Deck.
[1] https://deckhd.com/
but regardless it looks like they use a different connector so it wont be possible https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/823177/Can+I+just+buy+th...
This revision appears to fix my main gripes with the original model so I’d like to buy one, but if I could use it as an ultraportable Beat Saber machine it’d make the purchase more justifiable. While my Quest 2 can technically run Beat Saber natively, the Steam version is vastly more mod-friendly and PCs generally don’t choke as badly on complex custom maps as the middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
At home most gaming (including Beat Saber) is done on a nice custom tower that outguns any reasonably priced gaming laptop, meaning that if I bought a gaming laptop it’d only get used when traveling and would collect dust the rest of the time. Unless of course I sell the desktop and go laptop-exclusive for games, but that comes with some notable tradeoffs (fan noise and longevity primarily).
The Deck’s form factor makes it attractive for at-home use scenarios that a desktop and laptop don’t fit as well, and a such has a better chance of getting consistent usage compared to a laptop.
The Steam version is not more mod friendly.
>PCs generally don’t choke as badly on complex custom maps as the middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
The Steamdeck targets 720p 30 fps gaming. The Quest 2 useded the latest generation mobile processors when it released. Similarly the Quest 3 is using the top of the line mobile processors.
One doesn’t need to mess around with sideloading and PC mods get updates more frequently, which in my book would qualify as more mod friendly.
It sounds like the Deck can’t handle Beat Saber better than the Quest 2 though so I guess it’s moot.
Sideloading is how you install any new software on android, so requiring it for installing modded beatsaber does not make it less mod friendly. PC updating more often is not because the PC version is more mod friendly. The reason it is slow to update on Quest right now is because modders are investing into making the next generation modding software instead of updating the coremods.
As I recall, Beat Saber was okay, but more demanding games were not.
I don't think the SD would be very useful for VR.
I haven't tried it but I expect you'd have a very bad time running a quest due to the encoding step, and also probably wouldn't have fun on anything newer than a vive/cv1 because the resolution is too high.
And they provide you parts and schematics in case you need to repair/mod your device. Never thought I'd see a day when linux gaming would be as good as what I get via my steam deck these days.
Kudos to Valve for embracing such an open approach to gaming/portable devices in general.
The moddability is a deliberate strategy by Valve, and I don’t see it as an inevitable move for every PC-centered company, Microsoft being the prime counterexample.
But yes, Valve does seem to get what gamers want (other than games made by them)
Lots of good stuff there, too. XBMC for life!
And I still use 2 original Xboxs at LAN parties here and there. Even with a softmod and Linux, it's still possible to system link Halo, Halo 2, Battlefront (2004), Battlefront 2 (2005), Crimson Skies, Metal Arms, and other games across at least three generations of console (Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One) with 16-to-32 people. Microsoft does backward compatibility like almost no one else, even on console.
It's getting harder to find replacement controllers, but I've found a local hardware guy in my city who can help find the right replacement parts as little pieces on the board start to fail. I plan on keeping both of mine running as long as possible!
Where are the schematics? I was trying to do a repair on an unusually common failure and couldn't find anything.
https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Steam_Game_Console
And are there any specific usage patterns that lead to more of these issues?
I haven't been able to investigate it too much but last I looked at the data sheet for that chip it seems like there's no way it should have a hole blown in it unless something was designed wrong.
They (GabeN I believe) mentioned early on that it was "painful" to hit the Deck's price point. Unsure if this means sold at a loss or just a smaller-than-ideal profit.
I hope Steam OS doesn't end up the same locked down mess that Android has become these days ...
You won’t be able to do mobile payment and some other things because the companies behind those other things will only allow their apps to run on locked down devices.
Happened when i rooted my last phone. And after that no banking/payment apps worked.
Last time I was looking for a new bank, I picked one from this list based on the reports available. Thankfully my bank app is not so locked down.
Hope you can find something that works for you.
At least they don't go out of their way to block heroic games launcher/Linux and I'm happy with that.
Prior to having a Steam Deck, my overall video game time was fairly low since it took time to boot the PC and start everything up. With the SD, it's much easier to grab it and get a small session in, and I've purchased a number of games (and will even buy games on Steam at a higher price than elsewhere) because of the Deck. It's the price of convenience, but well worth it in my opinion.
Back when the whole Steam on Linux started, they saw Windows 8/10 as a real threat to their existence. (Windows S?)
It's just that the way they went about to solve this in an open way is what's nice.
They improved the graphics drivers situation, invested in Wine and other open source projects, put in a lot of effort to create a user experience they wanted on a handheld device.
Ultimately this gave them a real edge over their competitors. Was surprised to see random youtubers making videos on how to install steam OS on their more powerful Rog Ally/Gpd/Home theater PC etc ..
Google used to be like this once upon a time, long long ago... (That blocks phone, unlocked bootloader on all their Nexus devices, Linux improvements for Chrome/Android etc...). Not sure if things really changed or it's just in my head, but they no longer seem that way.
But yes, there has always been a big dose of NIH from corporate. Sometimes it is warranted, but many times it's extra work on this hope that they hoard valuable tech to themselves.
they are far from saints if you zoom out (from lootboxes and fostering an official means to trade virtual items for money), but being an independent company still driven by gaming helps.